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Catholic Priest clears his chest

GUEST,Merseybeat 13 Oct 05 - 01:28 PM
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Subject: Catholic Priest can no longer hide it
From: GUEST,Merseybeat
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:28 PM

Roman Catholic Priest plays his hand

Unionist anger over Nazi remarks

Fr Alec Reid said Catholics had been "treated like animals"
Unionists have condemned the priest who witnessed IRA decommissioning after he compared the unionist community to Nazis for past treatment of Catholics.
Father Alec Reid's remarks were made at a public meeting in south Belfast also attended by Reverend Harold Good, the Protestant decommissioning witness.

The DUP's Nigel Dodds said the remarks were appalling, while UUP leader Sir Reg Empey said they were almost racist.

Fr Reid later apologised, saying he had lost his temper.

He said he had been provoked and offended by comments made by some members of the audience questioning his integrity and regretted the language he had used.

However, the DUP's Ian Paisley Junior rejected this.

"He's apologised, but he's explaining away the reasons why he made those comments," Mr Paisley said.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Secretary of State Peter Hain said he joined in the condemnation of Fr Reid's remarks.

The meeting was held at Fitzroy Presbyterian Church on Wednesday, and about 200 people were in the hall to hear what Father Reid and Mr Good had to say.

Fr Reid told the audience: "The reality is that the nationalist community in Northern Ireland were treated almost like animals by the unionist community. They were not treated like human beings. It was like the Nazis treatment of the Jews."


Victims' representative William Frazer walked out of the meeting

Mr Dodds, the North Belfast MP, said if unionists had made similar remarks they would be threatened with prosecution for inciting hatred.

"The remarks by Alec Reid are appalling and reveal a mindset which could be portrayed as deeply bigoted and fundamentally racist," Mr Dodds said.

Sir Reg Empey said the comments damaged Fr Reid's credibility as a witness.

"It destroys confidence because how can the word of somebody using that sort of language be taken seriously.

"That's sad, because I'm convinced that a lot of decommissioning did take place, but Fr Reid is actually undermining the very work he is supposed to be part of."

Walkout

Willie Frazer of the victims' group Fair walked out of Wednesday's meeting in protest.

He said he was incensed by the priest's remarks.

"I did fly off the handle but I could not sit there and allow him to accuse the unionist people of persecuting the Roman Catholic community for the last 60 years. That is far from the truth."

On Thursday, Mr Frazer, five members of whose family, including his father, were murdered during the Troubles, said he did not accept Fr Reid's apology and said he was "trying to backtrack on what actually took place".

Last month, Fr Reid and Mr Good acted as witnesses to the republican paramilitary group's final act of disarmament.

Mr Good said he wanted to disassociate himself from Fr Reid's comments.

"I identify fully with the hurt and anger felt by many within the audience and within the wider community.

"However, I sincerely hope that Fr Reid's unqualified apology will be heard and accepted and that this incident will not be allowed to overshadow the significance of the decommissioning which was overseen by Alec Reid and myself."

Former Presbyterian moderator the Reverend Ken Newell, one of the organisers of the meeting, said Fr Reid's comments had to be seen in the context "where things were said to him which I think were below the belt".

Mr Newell said the priest was "wrong to say what he did", but he could see that within a short time of making the comments he had wanted to apologise.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM

Ok Mersey beat 2 questions
What point are you trying to make/promote?
Why didn't you put this thread on the non lyrics/music set of threads?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

So what? He has made a wrong comparison and apologised for that.

But that the treatment of the minority by the majority for (since) a very long time reminds rather of the bad examples in history than of the good ones how a minority can be treated isn't changed by a wrong comparison.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 03:52 PM

Why did you quote the whole thing instead of making a link?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

I think the more interesting question has to be what things were said to Fr. Reid in the meeting to make him say he what he did? As one of the organizers of the meeting, the Reverend Ken Newell, said Fr Reid's comments had to be seen in the context, "where things were said to him which I think were below the belt". Well done Mr Newell. You see folks here's another prime example of the kind of report you get out of the sick six and you know who controls the media. To be a fly on the wall at some of these meetings.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Merseybeat
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:42 PM

William Fraser. We are proud of your courage and faithful stand with the innocent victims of terrorists and their apologists even in the clergy. You were right to speak out for justice and it only took a small scratch to let the hideous truth pour out venomously from Reid. That was indeed a malevolent, malignant piece of mischief. Reid's Relay Team. Nazi baton passed from whom to Mary McAleese? She runs with it as far as she can and passes it to Reid. We do not know which team member Reid will pass it to but one thing we do know, Enough is Enough. They will not rewrite our history with lies for we will not have it. The truth always comes out as it did at that meeting thanks to William's courage. Reid, McAleese and the entire republicam movement want to demonise the entire Unionist and Loyalist population of Ulster. They want the world to believe we deserved the slaughter of our families and friends and neighbours. They want to point the accusing finger to disguise their own bloodied hands. Well it is time Ulstermen and women began to speak out clearly. We did our best to live in peace with our Catholic neighbours but for their dream of an Aryan Celtic master race on this island they were prepared to see us die. Those who make accusations must tell us why in this day and age the irish openly discriminate against Protestants in Southern Ireland. One prime example---OUT OF THEIR ENTIRE POLICE FORCE WHY ARE THERE ONLY TWELVE PROTESTANTS ON THAT FORCE?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM

Dear Merseybeat
Thanks for your posts, it allows my fellow debaters an insight to your mindset.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:04 PM

Holy fook. Merseybeat I believe you mean the Republic of Ireland. well since there are only about 20 protestants in the Republic of Ireland I'd have to say that is a pretty good ratio;-)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:04 PM

Round, like a circle in a spiral......yawn


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:41 PM

calm down, calm down!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:17 AM

It's quite wrong to compare the NI Unionists to Nazis. They were far more like whites in the Deep South (of the USA that is), with whom they in fact often share a religion. The establishment are content to sit back and pull strings, while the lower orders, they regret, are misguided enough to do the dirty work of lynching and burning.

The big difference of course being that the Civil Rights movement in NI failed, pacifism failed, and violence took over.

Should this be in the thread about the Black Irish?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:24 AM

different weather over there in the deep south - thats another difference.

shall I compare thee to a summers day....

one can't help but feel comparing ones fellow citizens to either deep south racists, or nazis........well it can't help.

compare them to fluffy toys, or father christmas...something nice!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:17 AM

I don't want Ian Paisley coming down my chimney.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

Every now and again the true face of Rome is allowed to shine through - first McAleese, now the IRA-apolgist "Father" Reid. Ulster Independence within the British Commonwealth is the only answer - successive British Governments have attempted to appease and placate the insatiable Irish Republicanism. Militant Irish Republicanism is a cancer - the only solution is to cut it out, PERMANENTLY. Well done in helping to expose the bigotry of Alec Reid. In horror I listened and watched this unbelievable display of hatred and disrespect for the Protestant and Unionist community. I subsequently watched the Hearts and Minds programme on BBC where Mr Reid stated that he believed the IRA did not rob the Northern Bank or engage in criminality. And this is an independent witness for IRA decommissioning? In my view, he is a disgrace to his church and a disgrace to the process of peace


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:50 PM

Lord Craigavon the first prime Minister declared N Ireland as "a Protestant state for a Protestant people", Basil Brooke, Prime Minister in the 1950-60s, declared, "I wouldn`t have one about the place".

The sick six counties has always been a cold climate for Nationalists.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:14 PM

think fluffy toy then...ask yourself what would Harry Corbett do in this situation.
Bye bye sooty, Say bye bye, bye bye everybody......


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

Friendly advice, stand well back from the drums.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:34 PM

Harry might have put his hand up someones ass, but I'm not ! Fluffy or no flutty.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:37 PM

Merseybeat,

Not mischief making, I would really like to know the answers to a few questions.

1. How many catholics/republicans were in the Ulster police force pre 1969?

2. How many catholics/republicans held top positions in government, the judiciary, and business pre 1969?

3. How many protestants/loyalists had to put up with provocative displays from catholic/republican marchers taking over the streets where they lived?

4. How many protestant/loyalist children had to run a gauntlet of grown men spewing hate and vitriol, because they had to pass through catholic areas to get to school?

5. Why was it necessary for catholics in Ulster to live together in small tight communities surrounded on all sides by protestant areas which they entered at considerable risk?

You seem to have all the facts at your fingertips, so perhaps you wouldn't mind satisfying my curiosity.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:45 AM

lets hope facts are all that he's got at his fingertips. I don't think he's in much of a mood for dialogue Don T. Would you be - if those were the key beliefs of your life. Mind you its only as daft as thinking that shooting at folks from the top of a block of flats is a bit of a hoot.

think fluffy toy Don, but watch out - even Harry Corbett got hit with a hammer now and then. that Sooty was a mean bastard when the mood took him.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:40 AM

Above, arsehole.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Soldier boy
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

If I may reply to the 5 questions above, No 1 is 5%, No 2 is 1%, No 3, none, No 4 none, and as you can see the 4 answers above also gives the answer to question No 5.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:44 PM

Thank you Soldier boy, that is about what I had expected.

It would seem that some self examination by loyalists might be a good thing, wouldn't you say.

Nobody deserves to be blown up, and there is no possible justification for bombings. By the same token, nobody should be treated as a second class citizen in his own country, nor should anyone have see his children terrorised by rabid religious, political, or racial bigots.

Oppression of minorities always leads to a reckoning, and peace will be an impossible dream as long as the oppressors try to put total blame on the shoulders of the oppressed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Joe Mc Crory
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:27 PM

I see new figures out yesterday from N.I. office. regarding punishment shootings and beatings. 98% by Loyalist groups. 1% Republican. 1% by others.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 09:34 PM

Loyalists/Unionists say "We will not share power with Sinn Fein till the IRA give up the guns"

IRA announce that the shooting war is over, and order their men to cease fire.

IRA de-commission arms, as verified among others by a British general.

Loyalists/Unionists keep their guns, and say they don't trust the IRA, they don't trust the men who verified de-commissioning, and they don't believe that the guns have gone.

Who is acting in good faith, and who is blocking the peace process?

From here it looks like the loyalists/unionists, but I'm sure they'll blame the republicans.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:44 PM

Merseybeat,

Maybe there were only 12 protestants in the Gardai because only 12 applied for the job, it may be as simple as that.
IN addition to what Don asked I ask how many catholics worked in the shipyards, how many in the aircraft factory, how many in the Ormeau bakery. I know the shipyards did employ catholics, so also did the aircraft factory but not in numbers that reflect the demographics of the region. I know that none worked in the that said "NO CATHOLICS NEED APPLY".
I do feel that the nazi part of the statement by Father Reid was unnecessary and ill timed, but to be fair he also said that the unionists had no choice and that the catholics would probably have done the same if the situation was reversed. Please read the entire statement before selecting portions of it just to make a point.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:48 PM

The last line of the first paragraph should read " I know that none worked in the bakery, because up until 1960 they had a banner at the front gates that said "NO CATHOLICS NEED APPLY".


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 03:21 AM

Merseybeat,
I would not take sides with you, but it is interesting to see something of the majority community's viewpoint here.
We have had the Nationalist agenda put before us over and over again by the very familiar names, so please do not allow yourself to be shouted down by them all. Most here would welcome seeing both sides of the issue.

(5% Catholics in RUC pre 69? Not that unreasonable)
(Perhaps protestants do not apply to be police in Eire? Unreasonable)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:14 AM

Merseybeat, put your next point across, I'm ready and more than willing.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:46 AM

Keith A,

If you could bring yourself to look at both sides of a statistic, you might find that "not unreasonable" is the wrong response to 5% catholics in a force upholding law in a country with a lot more than 5% catholic population.

It seems that your view of the situation is about as even handed as the RUC's performance of their role at that time.

Continued defence of the indefensible is destroying the credibility of the loyalist POV.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:21 AM

Good point Don. Well said


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:53 AM

Why do you think Fr, Reid is wrong in his remarks ? After all is it not true that Lord Craigavon Prime Minister of Northern Ireland flew the Nazi flag on his home ? And is it not true that he entertained Joachim Von Ribbontrop and other German officers such as Goering and senior S.S. in his home at Portstewart ? He also flew the Nazi flag from his yacht. This was the Northern Ireland Prime Minister well known for his hate of Catholics.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:09 AM

Sorry to correct you Sweeney, but it was Lord Londonderry the owner of Mount Stewart a large estate on Strangford Lough who entertained Von Ribbentropp the German Foreign Minister in the Hitler Cabinet.

Von Ribbentropp along with Goering were friends of Lord Londonderry, the good Lord always had a Nazi flag flying from his yacht which was moored on off the County Down coast, he also had a swastika flying on the grounds of Mount Stewart, a statue of a Nazi stormtrooper which was presented to his lordship by the Von man is still in Mount Stewart.

The headlines in one of the local papers at the time was, "Nazi flags flown in N Ireland".

Retract Fr Reid all is forgiven.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:19 AM

Thanks ard, just realised it after I had posted. too late by then. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:29 AM

Don,
I meant in the context of the time.
Pre 69 we can all agree that the Catholic minority was being denied basic rights and legitimate aspirations by a sectarian and biggoted Stourmont government, yet the RUC had one in twenty of its strength from the Catholic community.
Not enough to be truly representative, but a good starting point to build on when the injustices began to be swept away.

Sadly, those Catholic RUC men were forced to quit, not by the government, the Unionists or the Loyalists, but by the IRA.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:02 AM

Sorry but your wrong Keith. No they were not forced out by the IRA. Many of us know that the R.U.C. had their own Orange Lodges and many Catholics were subjected to so much verbal abuse regarding their faith that they left. This was pre 1969. Once the troubles kicked off those within the force were getting abuse in every station about the Catholic up starts, this being the Civil Rights movement.The hate of Catholics within the force is well known. I know many older policeman who gave me first hand accounts of this. So sorry that attack on the PIRA falls short yet again.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:08 AM

Pre 69 I am sure all those things you cite were true.
Yet still, according to above post, one on twenty came from the minority community.

That number later went down because Catholic policemen were not safe in their own community. What would you have done to a Catholic policeman in your street Sweeney?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:15 AM

We never were confronted with that problem all of those CathoLIC RUC men were posted to area were they were not known, I do remember an RUC man setting up one of his Catholic colleagues this was in Cushendall Co Antrim in the early 1970s.

That RUC man was in a loyalist organisation , Catholic RUC men had to have very thick skins, as a regular ex-RUC man keeps relating in numerous letters to the Irish News,they wouldn`t trust their Catholic mates with any information, regarding raids etc, seeing that the raids were generally carried out on Nationalist districts.

The IRA need not have bothered with intimidating those Catholic RUC men there was plenty of UDA,UVF etc in the RUC, the many cases of collusion with the loyalists murder squads and the various branches of the security forces bear this out.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:34 AM

Dear Keith
I grew up in a street with TWO POLICEMEN living in it and never had a cross word with them. One Catholic the other Protestant. I grew up in mixed area. Until the Loyalists burnt out every Catholic family. Including the policeman !Funny how times change Keith, now protestant policemen are getting burned out of theiir homes in Protestant areas as reported after the loyalist riots last August, come on you must have something to say about that ? And ard I really love to hear that word COLLUSION mentioned no one on this seems to pick up on it when it comes up. Least of all the poster above you!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:38 AM

So Catholic RUC men were not targetted by IRA?

I am surprised. I would have thought that they would have been and have read that intimidation (Sweeney gets cross when my memory lets me down)

I do remember a 17year old Catholic lad you chose to follow family tradition and join the army.
On his first home leave the poor kid was executed by PIRA.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:41 AM

woops

...read that intimidation by PIRA forced them to quit. (...

...Catholic lad who chose...

sorry,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:45 AM

Yes Keith members of the police and army were targets, we did not target because of someones faith ! Yes your right if someone joined the British army and came home on leave, be he Catholic or Protestant he was still a target. No I don't get cross with you Keith, it wastes my time having to correct your facts all the time.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:00 AM

Then you can not complain that there were too few Catholics in the Police.
If any had joined you would have killed them.

Now, is it true that there are only 5 protestants in the Irish police?
That would be less than 0.1%?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

Keith the PIRA were not a sectarian force. No one was singled out for their faith, unlike loyalists. If you get a chance read the Green Book. These were the strict rules volunteers lived by.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:12 AM

Sorry Keith I did not state that figure you mention.I will leave it to the poster.I myself looked on a policeman as a policeman. It meant little to me if he was Catholic, Protestant or Jew.When did I complain about too few joining the police ? That is for another poster also. Had many dealings with he police, and memories still very fresh, never cared much about which church they attended !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:17 AM

Not sectarian in the sense that you would cheerfully murder any policeman or woman, in their home if possible.

But a protestant joining the police at least had a sporting chance of not being hunted down. A Catholic would be sure to be found out by you and killed.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:21 AM

Many dealings with the police?
Well you were an IRA man.
You would have treated them worse.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:13 AM

Dear Keith. Sorry never faced membership charges of a prescribed organisation. Still live with a spotless police record. Yes had many dealings with the police, but then again so do many Catholics. You didn't need to be a member of the PIRA Your address was usually enough.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:19 AM

Never faced charges.
How often you have cited lack of charges as evidence of innocence.
But you have TOLD us that you were an IRA man!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

I understand Keith if an Irish says he is innocent you have trouble understanding it. I somehow imagine you still have trouble accepting the Guilford four and Birmingham six were innocent ? If you read their statements all admitted they were members of the PIRA, none were even Republicans !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 12:13 PM

A page of pain about a G_d forsaken land where the occupants are so busy hating one another that they can't see the blasphemy they use to justify their hate.

What a cosmic joke!

Hey Mersey, if you think the 'pool' is so good, do yourself a favor and buggar off over there instead of wallowing in pigshit Ulster.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 01:00 PM

Today I went through all of William Frazer's press releases from the last five years, he is the clown that started on the priest at the open meeting, his sole purpose for being there. Not once does he condemn the murders of innocent Catholics by Loyalist Terrorists. One can only conclude that Mr Frazer does not view a Catholic life as being of any value. Much in the same way that the Nazi's viewed Jewish lives as having no value.Strange coming from a man that spent his early years playing Gaelic football and there is a photograph of him standing in Croke Park Dublin Holding the end of a Tricolour. Ah why oh why do kids have to grow up !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Well said Keith, In Ulster.
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

keith, Protestant silence in South feeds Fr Reid's Nazi fantasy LAST Thursday, I went on The Last Word to talk to Matt Cooper about the remarks made by the Redemptorist priest Fr Alec Reid at the Fitzroy Presbyterian Church in Belfast. Up until that time, I was depending on press reports which had played up Fr Reid's comparison of the unionist community to the Nazis. But Today FM played the actual tape which allowed me to put the affair in context - and to spread the blame more widely.Looks like there is more than one priest involved in this. The tape showed that Fr Reid did not deliver a carefully prepared polemic. He started by saying that unionists had persecuted Catholics for 60 years.That does not hold water, no proof anywhere of that. After some reaction from the audience, he said they had treated nationalists "almost like animals". He then backtracked a bit under pressure from human a rights activist and said that the Protestant community had not treated nationalists like human beings. But as the argument escalated, Fr Reid's responses became more extreme. He said that the unionists had treated nationalists the same way as the Nazis had treated the Jews, and that the Protestant community should be ashamed of its record. The performance did nothing to enhance his credibility as an impartial witness to decommissioning. Fr Reid has apologised for his remarks. That still leaves us with some lethal questions. * * * First, is there even a tiny grain of truth in what Fr Reid had to say? None whatsoever, even leaving the Holocaust out of the historical record. In September 1935, the Nazi state brought in the Nuremberg Laws, one of which, the Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour, not Catholic, prevented marriage between Jews and non-Jews. There was no such ban in Northern Ireland: mixed marriages took place all the time, without any problems, Likewise, the Northern state did not pass a "Reich Citizenship Law" removing Roman Catholics' right to vote. This is myth.Otherwise people like Gerry Fitt could not have been elected to Westminster. In Germany in 1936, Jews were removed from the professions like law, education, medicine. By contrast the Northern nationalist community is top heavy with solicitors, teachers and doctors, Catholics always held top posts. In 1938, Aryan doctors were banned from treating Jews. No Northern Protestant doctor was banned from treating Roman Catholics - the notion would never have occurred to even the most obdurate unionist. In August 1938, every German Jewish male had to call himself Israel and every Jewish woman had to call herself Sarah. Northern Ireland passed no law forcing Sean and Brigid to call themselves William or Daphne. Northern Catholics were not forbidden to sit in public parks and use public lavatories - nor were 20,000 sent to a Dachau-style concentration camp from which few emerged alive. Their businesses were not forcibly sold to Northern Protestants. Finally, Northern Roman Catholics were not subjected to a Final Solution, and sent to extermination camps as part of a systematic plan to eliminate them from the entire island of Ireland. Fr Reid was talking rubbish. Far from being treated like either animals or German Jews, Northern nationalists enjoyed enviable access to the British welfare state, including free health and higher education. Indeed, it was the entry of people like Bernadette McAliskey into QUB, and the growing strength of the Roman Catholic middle class (solicitors, doctors and poet laureates like Seamus Heaney) which fuelled the civil rights movement. Protestants were held out of Queens.By 1973 it had won almost all its demands. The Provo campaign was not about removing restrictions on Roman Catholics. It was a fascist campaign to force Northern Protestants into a united Ireland. The nearest thing Northern Ireland ever had to Nazis was the Provisional IRA.The Ulster Volunteer Force was there to defend Protestants. Against that general background, Matt Cooper's first question to me went to the heart of the matter. Did Fr Reid's remarks reveal the deep division between the two communities in Northern Ireland? My answer was that it was much more revealing of the attitude of Southern Irish nationalists. Fr Alec Reid is not from South Armagh. He is a Southerner. Now of course it is possible he simply went native and picked up his prejudices from Northern nationalists. But fair is fair. Not only have I never heard Northern nationalists sound off like Fr Reid in recent years, but I must admit I have seldom heard a Sinn Fein spokesperson speak in such tribal terms. In sum, I believe Fr Reid, like those Southerners who texted the programme supporting him, suffers from the deepest delusion in modern Irish history - that the South was a nice cosy house for Southern Protestants. And as I told Matt Cooper, the main purveyors of this myth are Southern Protestant spokespersons. Any attempt to highlight what happened to Protestants in the South between 1911 and 1980 - a period taking in the Ne Temere ban on "mixed marriages", the ethnic cleansing of 50,000 farmers, shopkeepers and artisans in 1921, the boycott of Fethard on Sea in the Fifties, and the sectarian contraception and divorce laws only recently reformed - will be instantly followed by Southern Protestants popping up in print, radio or television to profess themselves completely happy in the Irish Republic. * * * But professing happiness with the present Republic is to miss the point. We are not speaking about current discrimination - I don't know any Protestant in the Irish Republic who is suffering from discrimination at the present time, so there is no point in them telling me how happy they are. We are speaking about the historical memory of marginalisation in modern Irish history - because I don't know any Southern Protestant whose father or mother could have felt they were fully integrated into an Irish state run on Catholic lines. So why are so few Southern Protestants willing to stand up and say publicly what many of them still say privately: that the Irish state until recently was a pretty cold house for Protestants - just as Northern Ireland was a cold house for Roman Catholics? Why don't Southern Protestants put their family and historical memories on the public record so that Southern Roman Catholics can see that both communities, North and South, share some of the blame? In reply, my Protestant friends say either that it is easier to keep the head down, or, less honestly, tell me they are doing it for the "peace process". The first reason is honest, the second is hypocrisy. Far from promoting peace, it is precisely this policy of self-imposed silence on the part of Southern Protestants which allows Southern Roman Catholics to suffer from delusions of do-goodery, and to send righteous texts to The Last Word in support of Fr Reid. Southern Protestants who subscribe to silence may find it lubricates their social life. But they should stop pretending it serves peace. Facing the fact that 50,000 Protestants farmers and artisans were forced out of the South in 1921-22 is a vital part of the peace process.Many were murdered in their fields. Because it means that both societies have to shoulder blame. Silence feeds the kind of false history that lay behind Fr Reid's outburst. Southern Protestants should speak out and shame the devil. As the Bible says: the truth sets you free. Eoghan Harris Sunday Independant Just how can this be compared to Ulster? By Lindy McDowell lmcdowell@belfasttelegraph.co.uk 15 October 2005 TO wildly paraphrase Oscar Wilde, for one spokesperson of nationalism to lose the plot and call unionists Nazis may be regarded as a misfortune; for two spokespersons of nationalism to lose it and call unionists Nazis looks like a bit of a pattern emerging . . . What the hell is going on in people's minds when they say these things? Never mind what it tells us about what they think of their unionist neighbours, comments like those of Fr Alec Reid this week and Irish President Mary McAleese last January are a truly shocking insight into where they rate the crimes of the Nazis. And a truly disturbing reflection of the contempt they apparently feel for the suffering of Nazi victims. Six million men, women and children coldly, systematically butchered in the most horrific act of genocide in the history of mankind. . . . And that's regarded as being on a par with gerrymandering in Londonderry? It's not primarily Protestants that Fr Reid needs to be apologising to for his crass remarks. It's Jews. And if he needs any reminder why, he should read the powerful words of Alex Benjamin on pages 24 and 25 in this paper today. In his article Alex, who comes from a Jewish background, reveals that it's estimated that world-wide the number of people who bore the Benjamin name was decimated by almost half during the savage, bloody years of Nazi power. It sort of puts a housing dispute in Strabane into perspective. One of the arguments used in defence of Fr Reid this week was the line about how he had been provoked and that he came out with the Nazi jibe as a sort of unthinking knee-jerk. This is fair enough up to a point - the point is, though, that when most of us knee-jerk in an unthinking sort of way, what we come out with tends to be what we really think. And what has shocked so very many unionist people this week is not just the realisation that this is how Fr Reid thinks - but the suspicion that this might be how a much wider number of nationalists also think. Fr Alec's strange follow-up comments when he said that he was sorry and that he believed unionists acted the way they did because of Partition, only compounds this belief. His initial accusation was: "The reality is that the nationalist community in Northern Ireland were treated almost like animals by the unionist community. They were not treated like human beings. They were treated like the Nazis treated the Jews." The reality is that the "unionist community" (I assume he means people like me) did nothing of the sort. The Sinn Fein spin on history seeks to align the experience of nationalists in Northern Ireland with just about every grievance, oppression, pogrom or, in the case of the Jews, wholesale genocide in history. The fact is that, not only was the experience of nationalists in Northern Ireland light years away from the horror inflicted on the victims of the Nazis, it was also light years away from the terrible injustice of the Apartheid system in South Africa and even (it might interest a few American readers to note) light years away from the blatant discrimination practised against African Americans by the American government in the 1960s. Yet all of these instances are routinely evoked by Sinn Fein as comparable. Sectarian discrimination did not exist in Northern Ireland. Or indeed to one side of the border. There were inequalities. But as I've pointed out in this column many, many times in the past, if a more accurate comparison with the experience of the nationalist working class in Northern Ireland is to be made, it's with the experience of the unionist working class. Hundreds of thousands of us grew up in similar circumstances. Nobody ever came to my father's council house door to assure him there was a job for him anytime just because he was Protestant. Nobody ever told my mother not to worry about her children's education because there would automatically be jobs for us all once we finished school. At no time was my family ever aware of any special privileges, advantages or state largesse that might come our way simply because we were Protestant. We did not treat anyone "almost like animals", Fr Reid. Like our neighbours, both Catholic and Protestant, we got on with our own lives. PERHAPS Fr Reid can explain this simple point. How is it that if the "unionist community" were treating their nationalist neighbours "almost like animals", we were all living in the same conditions? Surely if one section of the community had its jackboot on the throat of the other there would be what Tony might call "transparent and verifiable" evidence of advantage. In Northern Ireland the great swathes of the Protestant working class are proof that somewhere along the line that spin about the unionist community being privileged oppressors doesn't really wash. Along with hundreds of thousands in that community I was stunned and hurt by what Fr Reid, a man who has been built up as a paragon of peace, has had to say about us this week. I accept, though, that this does not necessarily make him a bad person. I even feel a bit sorry for him. His comments about unionists being like Nazis and about IRA bank raiders, which I know you agree with, being "whiter than white" are verging on that pecularily local syndrome - Troubles Tourette's. In fact he's put his foot in his mouth so much this week, he could even be in the running as a new Orange Order spokesman. And there may be a positive aspect to the row about his remarks. We have in Northern Ireland two sides of a working class community which have been often cynically manipulated and set at each other's throat. One side thinks they were badly kept down. The other side thinks they were equally kept down - and then demonised as the first side's oppressors. Isn't it time we opened a debate about this so that the reality of both sides' experience could be expressed? Wouldn't it be possible to do this in a way that involves plain speaking but avoids hyperbole, name calling and the trivialising of genocide? Above all, one that avoids demonising an entire side of the community? For where's the equality Fr Alec, when, to wildly misquote old Oscar again, all of us have been in the gutters - but only some are allowed to show the scars? Belfast Telegraph Fr Reid unveils true colours in surly knee-jerk reaction BEARING WITNESS: Fr Alec Reid, left, and Rev Harold Good at the news conference in Belfast when decommissioning was announced last month IT WOULD be tempting to dismiss the angry comments last week by Belfast priest Fr Alec Reid, in which he compared unionists to Nazis, as nothing more than the latest outbreak of Mope (Most Oppressed People Ever) syndrome - along the lines, say, of President McAleese's ill-judged and ill-timed remarks on World Holocaust Day, when she spoke of Protestants teaching their children to hate Catholics the way the Nazis taught theirs to hate Jews. Tempting, but wrong. Not least because Fr Reid was the Catholic priest chosen, alongside the Rev Harold Good, to witness the IRA's recent act of decommissioning. P O'Neill's statement at the time even spoke of how "we have invited two independent witnesses" to oversee decommissioning, a sweet little form of words which almost made it sound like an invitation to a tea party at Buckingham Palace. What these two witnesses say, as a consequence, is bound to come under much more intense scrutiny - a fact which the Rev Harold Good, the Protestant minister who observed decommissioning alongside Fr Reid, appears to have grasped with instinctive seriousness. The words also matter because of the context in which they were spoken. The Redemptorist priest and close friend of Gerry Adams chose to compare unionist behaviour towards nationalists to that of "the Nazi treatment of the Jews" at a public meeting organised to reassure ordinary Protestants about the extent and purpose of IRA decommissioning. Short of using a meeting of the National Women's Council to complain at women for getting a bit uppity these days and never having the dinner ready on time, it is hard to think of a worse example of someone saying the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was supposed to be helping the peace process "move forward", as that cuddly language we're all required to speak now would no doubt put it, and instead he plunged it right back into another bitter playground argument about who did what to when decades ago. Further fuel was added to the fire by an interview given by Fr Reid to the BBC's Hearts And Minds programme, in which he stated that he accepted the IRA's denial of the Northern Bank robbery; and refused to accept that the IRA was a criminal organisation. By the time the week was over, Fr Reid's hard-won reputation had plunged from that of a so-called "independent witness" to something more akin to a useful idiot. It's a fate which often befalls those who accept the IRA's word. More than all that, Fr Alec Reid's remarks cannot be easily dismissed or excused because they sum up perfectly a certain mindset deeply entrenched in Northern nationalism. He may have been provoked, as he claimed afterwards, by a hostile crowd in Belfast - and he may, like President McAleese, seem genuinely mortified at making such a spectacle of himself - but it is hardly a coincidence that what came out when he was provoked were these particular words and this particular sentiment. Just as wine loosens the brain and the tongue sufficiently to say what you are really thinking, so does anger. That was the problem. Fr Reid's surly knee-jerk reaction to criticism was not an outburst of political Tourette's syndrome over which he has no control. Rather it was the inner self of Ulster Catholic political culture unwittingly manifesting itself to those who were not supposed to see it. And what it revealed was the almost unplumbed depths of Northern self-pity and self-importance. It was not just some grubby, squalid little province in which backstreet thugs have been killing each other for no good reason other than their own moral degeneracy and sectarian resentment for the best part of three decades. Oh no, it was Nazi Germany revisited. Schindler's List with added fiddles. The Sorrow And The Pity dubbed into blarney. The Nazi metaphor has become a commonplace of republican discourse in the past 30 years, and why wouldn't it? Those who desperately crave legitimacy to justify their brutal terrorist campaign would inevitably try to root their actions in some spuriously-constructed narrative which painted them as the eternal victims, even when they were doing the killing, and their victims, even as they were dying, as eternal aggressors who were asking for it. Piece by poisonous piece, the lie slips into the general consciousness of an entire population and becomes unthinkingly accepted as orthodoxy. But to see a man of the church explicitly approving of the descent into paranoid delusions of victimhood, encouraging a persecution complex that was used tojustify murder, remainssingularly shocking. Of course, Fr Reid is not the first to grab hold of the metaphor like a life jacket when his argument starts sinking, and he won't be the last. And it not only nationalists who are guilty of making such over-the-top comparisons. The Taoiseach and Minister for Justice have both compared the IRA to the Nazis in their time. Rhetoricians on the left also habitually use the same fatuous analogy against their enemies, among them Harold Pinter, who last week won the Nobel Prize for Literature. John Pilger adopted the same line when he declared that "the current American elite is the Third Reich of our time", whilst that well-known human rights champion, Fidel Castro, has spoken in speeches of "Bush's Hitler-like government". The misuse of the Nazis as a general metaphor for anything of which the speaker disapproves is part of the dumbing down of discourse where everything has to be reduced to a sound bite, a cheap slogan, and to hell with the historical record. Only someone who was criminally ignorant of 20th-Century history could treat such a comparison with anything but contempt. Trying to hitch a ride to legitimacy on the back of the worst mass crime in history, when men, woman and children were butchered in their millions, and denied every right and dignity to which they were entitled, is the intellectual equivalent of presenting yourself at a refugee camp and pretending to be a victim of some natural disaster in order to con other people out of aid and compensation. Just because those who use the Nazi comparison are trying to con those listening out of sympathy and political backing does not make it any more admirable. It devalues 'To see a man of the church explicitly approving of the descent into paranoid delusions of victimhood is singularly shocking' the moral currency of the Holocaust. It turns the 'final solution' into an advertising jingle. The ultimate irony of last week's row was that Fr Reid was reported to have shouted at his detractors: "You don't want the truth!" If he seriously thinks there is any comparison between Nazi Germany and post-partition Ulster, then Fr Reid is open to an equally serious charge: "You don't even know the truth." Which trait is more unedifying is a moot point. Eilis O'Hanlon Sunday Independant Priest in 'Nazi' row briefed on IRA criminality ADVERTISEMENT JIM CUSACK BELFAST priest Fr Alec Reid, who has described the views of Justice Minister Michael McDowell on the IRA as "immoral", recently received two top-level briefings on the IRA's involvement in criminality, including one from the Minister himself. Fr Reid, who is a close confidante and spiritual adviser of Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams, had "demanded" the meetings, which took place earlier this year, when the Minister attacked Sinn Fein/IRA after the Northern Bank robbery and the murder of Robert McCartney. Despite being briefed by the Minister and the Department of Justice Secretary General Sean Aylward, Fr Reid came away unconvinced and instead accused the British and Irish Governments of "black propaganda" against the Sinn Fein/IRA. The priest was chosen by the IRA as one of the two witnesses to its recent decommissioning. But his views, expressed publicly twice last week, has seriously undermined Unionist confidence in the IRA's "historic" act. Yesterday, DUP leader Ian Paisley shelved plans to have another meeting with the priest. A senior DUP source said "There was serious consideration given to meeting Fr Reid again to discuss the decommissioning exercise but there is little prospect of us pursuing that now. "His remarks likening Unionists to Nazis were appalling and hugely damaging to our perception of his overall outlook on society and our community in particular." Interviewed by the BBC in Dublin last Wednesday, Fr Reid said he believed the IRA when it said it was not behind the Northern Bank robbery, or any act of criminality. Asked about Minister McDowell's view that the IRA's criminality was perverting the democratic process, Fr Reid replied: "I totally disagree with him. He's misreading the whole situation." Further questioned about Michael McDowell's view that the IRA has turned from a heavily-armed private army into a lightly-armed enforcement wing of a revolutionary political movement, the Redemptorist priest replied: "They're not a lightly (armed) wing. I mean that's, that kind of thing really is, in my view, quite immoral, that kind of talk because it simply isn't true." When interviewer Noel Thompson asked Fr Reid if he did not accept the IRA was behind the Northern Bank and other major robberies, the priest replied: "No, well, I don't accept that you see. I mean, this is according to the Ministry for Justice down here. But, I don't agree with that." Fr Reid's comments about the "ministry" for justice caused disquiet in the Government here. Government sources have revealed that the Department of Justice responded to two requests from Fr Reid for briefings earlier this year. At both briefings, including one from Minster McDowell in person, Fr Reid was assured that it was the Garda's view that the IRA was heavily involved in criminality and, specifically, was behind the Northern Bank robbery. Fr Reid's rejection of the Government's view on IRA criminality has not, however, come as a surprise. According to senior sources, Fr Reid also rejected the same charges during his briefings in the Department. "It was like talking to a barn door. He just didn't get it," said one source. Yesterday, Mr McDowell did not wish to be drawn into an argument with Fr Reid. However, sources close to the Minister said: "In so far as he has cast doubts on the recent statement by the Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy that Northern Bank money has turned up in Cork, he should be very careful when heimpugns the integrity of people loyally serving Irish democracy." Fr Reid caused serious consternation in the North last Thursday after an outburst in which he said unionists had treated nationalists as "animals" and "like the Nazis treated the Jews". The outburst followed an exchange with Willy Frazer, a campaigner on behalf of the families of Protestants killed by the IRA in the Border area. Mr Frazer, who walked out of the meeting after the exchange, said yesterday: "Thankfully, the first two calls I got about this were from Roman Catholics. They both apologised." Unionist confidence in Fr Reid's standing as an independent observer of decommissioning took two major blows last week from his outburst at the public meeting on Wednesday night and on the interview on the BBC Northern Ireland politics programme, Hearts and Minds. Fr Reid adamantly refused to believe the IRA could be involved in criminality, saying some members could be "feathering their own nests". Sunday Independent When the naked hate is publicly exposed ADVERTISEMENT 'THE most generous thing I can say about Alec Reid," said Ian Paisley Junior on the BBC's Hearts and Minds on Thursday night, "is that I think he's lost it." Baby Doc then proceeded to lose it himself - refusing even to tut-tut when asked to comment on his colleague Sammy Wilson's statement at election time that those who voted for Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey were "sub-human animals". The offending words - uttered in a Belfast Presbyterian church where Father Reid was seeking to convince Protestants that they could trust his word on decommissioning - were: "The nationalist community in Northern Ireland were treated almost like animals by the unionist community. They were not treated like human beings. They were treated like the Nazis treated the Jews." His face was hard: his anger full of righteousness, it was pouring out of his face. "He must be senile," said a charitable unionist friend on Friday morning. Like most of the population of Northern Ireland, she was staggered not just by this outburst, but by Reid's (pre-recorded) performance on the same Hearts and Minds where he explained that he knew the IRA had nothing to do with the Northern Bank robbery,yes right youand I know to the differ, because they said they hadn't and they never lied. Asked if they were "whiter than white when it came to criminality", he assented. Criticism was reserved for Michael McDowell, whose contention that the IRA is morphing into a lightly-armed revolutionary group was "quite immoral". My unionist friend wanted to find an excuse for Father Reid, for, like me, she has never forgotten the solace he gave us in 1988. Like millions of others, we had watched with sick hearts the footage of the long-drawn-out murder of two young Royal Corps of Signals corporals. Having driven into a republican cortege at a time of hysteria and paranoia that had followed an earlier loyalist attack on an IRA funeral, they were beaten, stripped and shot. Then - as a website for a military memorial garden in Northern Ireland puts it - Reid "arrived on the scene. One of the most enduring pictures of the Troubles shows him kneeling beside the almost-naked bodies of the soldiers, his face distraught as he administered the last rites. That act of humanity has never been forgotten." At that time, Reid was already a considerable player in the early secret days of the peace process - Tim Pat Coogan's "unsung hero" and the cerebral Martin Mansergh's "alpha and omega". From early in the Troubles, he had tried to save lives, whether by mediating in republican feuds, trying to resolve hunger strikes, or, in 1982, trying unsuccessfully to stop the IRA killing a kidnapped factory worker who was a part-timer in the Ulster Defence Regiment. So why is this paragon among peacemakers making such a comprehensive and destructive idiot of himself? Well, when this Tipperaryman decided in 1950 to become a priest, he chose to joined the Redemptorists. Notoriously harsh 'fire and brimstone' preachers, they were seriously nationalist. In the mid-Sixties he moved north to Clonard Monastery, which lives on an interface separating militant republicans and loyalists: it's hardly surprising that he became closely identified with his flock and acquired a jaundiced view of Protestants. Latterly, praised and feted, Reid has come into the public arena. A friend and trusted confidant of Gerry Adams for more than 20 years, he has become his ambassador to Spain, where he tries to persuade constitutional and militant Basque nationalists to unite.Then in the mid seventies there he was with those terrorists in Germany too. Davy Adams (no relation), commented that Reid's statement in June that Irish political parties (by being critical of Sinn Fein) were a greater threat to peace than the IRA was "one of the most ludicrous pronouncements ever". Yet Reid is physically and mentally vulnerable under pressure. Coogan records that among the "multiple stress-induced ailments that afflicted him" in the early Eighties, was complete blindness. So it was not kind of Adams to expose his friend (whom he calls the "Sagart") to long days watching weapons disposal and to intense pressure in front of cameras and interviewers. Reid's exposure of both his prejudice and his gullibility has desperately embarrassed the republican high command. Of course many republicans of the MOPE (Most Oppressed People Ever) persuasion equate unionists with Nazis. Were they not educated to shout "SS/RUC?" But it's not PC to say such things these days, and Reid has boobed. "His apology is irrelevant", many unionists have pointed out. "It's what he believes." Yet we should not forget Reid's 1988 shining act of humanity. And maybe his insult to Jews and to unionists (whose community - unlike the IRA - was anti-Nazi) will act as a catalyst in forcing into honest dialogue those two tribes in Northern Ireland who detest each other. Ruth Dudley Edwards Sunday Independent Local Jews angered by Nazi analogy By Claire McNeilly newsdesk@belfasttelegraph.co.uk 15 October 2005 NORTHERN Ireland's Jewish community last night entered the volatile debate sparked by Fr Alec Reid likening unionists to Nazis, saying that Holocaust analogies are becoming all too commonly made. As the fall-out from the decommissioning priest's comments continued, Jews here urged both sides of the Christian community in Ulster to consider the enormity of the Nazi wartime atrocities before drawing comparisions with descrimination here. In an interview in today's Belfast Telegraph, Alex Benjamin explains how ignorance of the Jewish religion can spawn such atrocious comparisions. And Dr Katy Radford, of the Belfast Jewish Community, highlights the ignorance surrounding one of history's worst episodes of genocide. Belfast Telegraph. Keep it up Keith.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:56 PM

Long winded reply dosen`t alter the fact that the British Nationalist Party were welcomed by the UDA when they came to Belfast, this is the equivalent of the KKK.
The facts are that from 1922 when Craigavon was given "A Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people", [direct quotation by Craigavon the first Prime Minister of N Ireland,] the Unionists were given free rein by the British to govern in whatever manner they choose, and they made sure that the Nationalist people were held down.

The City of Derry with a 75% Nationalist population were never in control until the Unionist were stood down in 1972, this was the case in all Nationalist areas, the biggest surprise is how the Nationalist people suffered in silence so long, until the Civil Rights Movement in 1968 gave these long suffering people a voice.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:23 PM

Guest above, please learn from Ard and stick to concise and clear posts.

Ard, as always you provide us with valuable (and readable) information. Thanks!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:27 PM

"British Nationalist Party . . . this is the equivalent of the KKK."

I disagree, ard. They are the equivalent of the Nazis. The KKK are just kids in comparison.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:43 PM

I honestly don't think I have ever read a greater load of cock in my life. I could pull you to task on so many points here. Just for example please answer these few.
1. What top posts did Catholics hold here pre 1969. NAME THEM.
2. Protestants were held out of Queens University. NAME THEM.
3. The UVF just defended Protestants ! Justify this with further evidence, before I get tore into you.
4. What other priests were involved with Fr, Reid.
5. Protestant farmers were murdered in their fields. NAME ONE.
6. Regarding the Northern Bank robbery or McCartney murder state your proof NOW.
Awaiting your reply so I can get going. Your match awaits you friend. Christ, did you sit all day typing that load of cock.
Divis is waiting.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM

Where in the world did this load of garbage come from ?. I have never heard anybody, especially protestant deny that catholics were discriminated against. I was discriminated against on numerous occasions and I will give you the details of a few of them.


1 - 7 kids went for a job, 6 catholic and 1 protestant. All 6 catholics possesed a senior education certificate., the protestant kid had quit scholl at 14 years of age (I know him), yet the position for a telephone linesman was given to him, the fact that he is colour blind should have eliminated him on it's own. He was the least qualified of all 7.


2 - I sold life insurance for one year (that was enough). I was given a district that was equally mixed, catholic on one side of the road and protestant on the other side of the road. After 2 weeks on the job when my name and address had been printed on the back of the insurance books, a number of protestant families cancelled their policies, not because they could no longer afford the premiums but because they "DID NOT DEAL WITH CATHOLICS", this was told to me to my face, and that my friend was in 1965/. One family told me to stay outside on the pavement as they did not want any catholic ever setting foot in their house. Not all cancelled, but enough did to make it not worth my while to continue as I was on commission.


3 - A relative of mine wanted to buy an old unused and abandoned church, with a view of turning it into an antique store. The owner was protestant, he had no trouble selling it to a catholic until he was visited by the local orange order and the local minister, who told him that if he sold to a papist he would no longer be welcome in the community / - and that was in 1986.


Please, please do not deny that catholics were discriminated against, because thay were. Did you ever wonder why so many catholics became highly educated and now are lawyers, doctors etc. The fact was that they had to stay at school because they would not get jobs in any of the main employment places such as shipyards, aircraft factories etc. The reverse is that the normal protestant was told that he did not really need an education because as part of the orange order he would be taken care off. What happened is the bottom fell out of the ship building and aircraft building businesses, leaving multitudes of protestants out of a job and abandoned by the same orange order that promised them so much. The reason why many catholics perservered at school is a direct result of discrimination, otherwise many would have left school to join the work force is they had any chance of getting gainful employment.


I am not comparing it to the jewish problem with nazism, but do not tell me that discrimination did not exist. It did and it still does.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:20 PM

Still waiting on you to come back to me, maybe you have just started writing your next post. In that case it will take until next Friday before your finished. PM me, that's one to one. Just click on the blue pm beside my name,if you can't face the rest of them.We will take it from there.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:54 AM

Epopna isa right guest.
Its like in a pub. Make a twenty minute speech and people will not pay attenetion.

Make one point at a time, and be as brief as possible.

If Divis Sweeney can only bring up Birmingham 6 again, you know you have made a good one.

(Not republicans Sweeney? Were they not arrested leaving England for an IRA funeral? Do try and get your facts right)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 03:44 AM

So they were guilty Keith in your eyes and deserved the years spent in prison. That has just about summed you up to me and I hope others to. Yes they were coming home to Jim McDades funeral. Jim was well known them as a friend. So good enough for those paddies, bang them up they knew a Provo.And as for getting my facts right, Keith If only you saw my pm's regarding you on this subject you would steer well clear of making that remark.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 03:52 AM

I did not say guilty.
You did say they were not Republicans.
That is all I said or meant.
What did you mean about PMs?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:14 AM

How about a little bit of current reality? ..... Yesterday's BBC - Northern Ireland Headline: ….. LOYALIST CARRY OUT MOST ATTACKS ..... Loyalists were responsible for almost all of the paramilitary-style shootings and assaults in Northern Ireland so far this year. ..... The new police figures show that loyalists were responsible for 57 shootings compared to three by republicans. ..... Loyalists also carried out more than 50 assaults, three times as many as republicans. ..... In 2004, loyalists carried out 95 such shootings and 64 assaults; republicans 12 shootings and 14 assaults. ..... ….. This site is hilarious. Loyalist Nazis being called to account for being what they pure and simply are ... Nazis. Its very entertaining watching the Nazis on the run while spinning an whining their total denials. I am a Catholic but not a Republican, but when I see the abuse Republicans have to take here it annoys me.Those guys were heading home to their families and to attend a funeral of a guy two went to school with and spent the best years of their life in an English jail for crimes they had nothing to do with. And the person above has more or less said they got what they deserved because they were arrested leaving England for an IRA funeral.Just reading some of your other comments in the last half hour,you really don't like the Irish, why so much hate ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:28 AM

No I really did not say or mean that.

I was just having a joke with Sweeney who always gives me a hard time when I get things wrong.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 05:17 AM

Can vouch for above.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 05:19 AM

Some remarks made by various Unionists politicians, Bertie Mitchell former MP for North Armagh stated during the Civil Rights marches 1968-69, " Rather than use Water Cannons these people should be taken out with flame throwers"

Former Unionist Cabinet Minister Bill Craig, urged his supporters at a paramilitary rally to compile dossiers concerning their political enemies, "because ultimately they would have to liquidated".

Paisley has on many occasions referred to Rome as running a"harlots church" RIP has built his career on over the top anti-Catholic rehtoric. After all those remarks attributed to Jews instead of Catholics would leave him open to arrest in any other country.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 08:18 AM

Fair play Fr. Reid for telling it how it is. Can someone please tell me why unionists are so bewildered by this lesson in history. No jobs, no vote, gerry-mandering, state murder(on both sides), blatent secterianism and bigotry, a protestant one party state for a protestant people, "Catholic women are no more than incubators for Rome" and who could forget the classic "the pope is the anti-christ" (wise words from our would be 1st minister). And people wonder what all the fuss is about and indeed where the "evil" provos came from? Cause and effect my dear friends!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM

Isn't it interesting that the Loyalist folks can say horrible things about Catholics, the Pope, etc. They can abuse Catholic children, they can denounce Catholics from every pulpit and soapbox, they can deface Catholic churches, burn out Catholic homes, deny basic rights, discriminate in employment, co-opt the local law enforcement into assisting with their crimes, parade through Catholic neighborhoods for no other reason than to incite hatred and insult Catholic values ......... then one Priest gets upset and draws a comparison that has some basis in fact, but was ill thought out, and they squeal like stuck pigs and try to claim the moral high ground. This is a sure sign of a movement that senses its own end and is trying desperately to legitimize itself in the face of world opinion that is seeing through the smokescreen that they have successfully used for years.

Nazis? No. Bigots? Those that promote this crap are absolutely bigots.

Your day is done, me bucko's. You may make it a long transition, but the winds of change are upon you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:01 AM

Both sides have their inherent histories and problems. I do not think it suits either to make comparisons to fascists or Nazis unless there is a racist component to the antagonism, and religion and racism are two different things, unlike the Nazis, who made a religion OUT of racism.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:41 AM

And note who the visiting Loyalists admired on this site !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:47 AM

I should have added that the Vanguard Loyalist meeting addressed by Bill Craig Home Affairs Minister, also included in the audience David Trimble who began his political life as a member of Craig`s Vanguard Party, very much akin to the British National Party.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:55 AM

Trimble was fifth in line to leadership. Present in Ormeau Park Rally when liquidation speech was made. He and ex British army Captain Austin Ardle patted Craig on back. But sure that was the same year six Irishmen were arrested and charged for the Birmingham bombings. They were going to the funeral of a dead I.R.A. man. According to above post that seemed to be enough to put them in the frame.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 03:33 PM

Not if you mean my post.

I get enough stick for the things I do say!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:11 PM

Must be you Keith, can't possibly be me.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:28 PM

No one in the Protestant community should be surprised by the comments of Fr Alex Reid comparing the Protestant community with the Nazis. After all, the Roman Catholic Church regards all Protestant Churches as being in error and regard all Protestants and their clergy as heretics.Many priests were in the I.R.A. During the Second World War, many Nazi war criminals were hidden in Catholic monasteries until they could be smuggled to South America on Vatican passports.The Pope himself kept four in his room. When Czechoslovakia was dismembered by the Nazis they set up a puppet State of Slovakia headed by a Roman Catholic priest called Fr Tiso, who was later hanged as a war criminal. Tiso declared: "Catholicism and Nazism have much in common and they work hand in hand to reform the world." In 1941 Tiso and Slovakia deported Jews to Auschwitz where they were to meet a horrible death. Through history the Roman Catholic Church has had more of an affinity with the Nazi regime than Protestantism, not forgetting the tremendous sacrifice of our ex-Servicemen. Catholics refused to join the forces during both World Wars. It was our boys who made the supreme sacrifice that we could all live in a free world. In the light of these facts, Fr Reid's apology rings hollow.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:39 PM

Listen clown what about the 10th and 16th Irish divisions in world war one ? were they protestant ? A third of the 36th Ulster Division was Catholic. What about Redmonds Irish National Volunteers were they protestant ? And did you not know it was Unionist politians that fought against conscription happening in Ulster in 1939. By the why who were the four boys the Pope had in his room ? Wasn't Paul Berry or Sammy Wilson by any chance ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:50 PM

There wasn`t too many protests from the Unionists when De Valera opposed conscripition in the sick counties during the second world war.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 06:54 PM

John A Murphy's son had a sex change and is now a woman named Susan. John remains my hero though.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:25 PM

Very happy for you GUEST. Best regards to Susan.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM

Republican Paramilitaries have killed 264 Protestant and 22 Catholic members of the RUC according to Sutton's index. Thus, the percentage of Catholic RUC members killed by Republican paramilitaries is 7.7%. The most precise number for catholic members in the RUC I have found is 7.7% (in 1992).

That speaks neither for particular targeting of Catholic RUC members nor for sparing them.

I don't believe the 14, 12, or 20 protestant members in the Gardai though I have not found any reliable information. The Gardai should have roughly 200 Protestants according to the percentage of Protestants in the RoI.

The percentage of Protestants in the RoI has fallen from 10% (after the partition) to 3 % now (CAIN website).

Divis, read 'Lost lives' and you'll find names of protestant farmers murdered in the fields.

In an admirable recent article in the New York Review of Books, Fintan O'Toole described the IRA's campaign of communal violence in Northern Ireland over the past quarter-century. Quite apart from well-publicised bombings in Enniskillen or the Shankhill Road, there was a systematic policy of killing only sons of Protestant farmers in western Ulster, a most effective form of ethnic cleansing. (from here. Another source for IRA killing protestant farmers in their fields is 'Lost Lives'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 03:23 PM

Wolfgang read the source of your information,as for Fintan O'Toole, I knew sooner of later someone would bring this anti Republican into a post, load of rubbish, there was no campaign of ethnic cleansing. Many border farmers were members of the RUC or UDR and in earlier cases the RIC.Many owned land handed down from their fathers who were planted on it. Any of those who were considered legitimate targets by the movement were shot because they were members of the British Crown Forces, nothing else. Wolfgang I am fully aware you will see my viewpoint as that of a Republican, but it's the truth as seen on the ground. Most Protestant border farmers were part time members of the Crown Forces, as were their fathers before them.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 04:27 PM

Wolfgang here a a taste of reality for you about Northern Ireland, it's not all down to the IRA. Can you not read what Divis is saying to you,the IRA war is over.Why do you have to keep going on about the IRA ? Thugs Terrorised My Little Girl recently on a ferry. A dozen Rangers supporters subjected my seven-year-old girl and her mother to a terrifying tirade of sectarian abuse on their cross-channel trip back from Scotland. Stena Line had still not contacted me to after seven phone calls. There was no apology or anything. "But my seven-year-old daughter was so traumatised the day after that she couldn't even go to school. "I was due to pick up my 34-year-old partner Diane, who is Scottish, and my two girls of 15 months and seven in Belfast from the Stena HSS on Sunday evening. "I was expecting to meet them with big smiles, but instead Una was roaring crying. My seven-year-old, Tara, just burst into tears and ran into my arms, crying: 'Daddy, daddy, I am wild scared'. "Diane said the hatred in the fans' eyes was unbelievable, and not one person on the HSS came to her aid. She went to security and they just told her she would be all right if she stayed in one place. "She tried to move away but they followed her around for an hour, calling her every name under the sun. A girl even came up to Tara and called her an Catholic b******." The ordeal began when my family were in the children's play area and a Rangers supporter asked his seven-year-old what team she supported. "She said her dad supported Celtic and that was it," he said. "There were grown men with pints of beer chasing her around the matted children's area and Diane was terrified as to what was going to happen next. I went to security after they arrived home and a woman said, 'It's nothing to do with me, it is not my boat'." A spokeswoman for Stena Line said they previously banned all football supporters travelling as foot passengers after allegations about some Rangers fans, adding that they had a "zero tolerance" policy towards fans. She added: "Stena Line is investigating allegations of an alleged verbal abuse incident on board one of its vessels "This was obviously a very serious incident, especially where children are involved.In another inncident an Irish news Woman was assaulted and is recovering after she was assaulted by a gang in Derry. The woman was punched, kicked and verbally assaulted by a group of about 14 youths at the entrance to John Street at about 2215 BST on Wednesday. Details of the attack have just been released. It is understood that some of the gang were wearing Rangers shirts. Police said a sectarian motive was one line of inquiry.There is a belief that Protestants never denied a Catholic a job or a house or anything else. And they say they didn't have the distribution of these commodities in their gift.The Protestants of the Fountain, Rosemount, Bishop Street etc. ran Derry Corporation as a bastion of bigotry from the inception of the State to the onset of the civil rights movement. In all of that time, there was scarcely a woman and fewer than a dozen men of the working class on the Nationalist benches in the Guildhall. It's sometimes said that the clique in control in Derry was drawn from a fifteenth of the citizens. In fact, about a fifth would be more like it. The sleek professionals, larded businessmen and landed elite who ran Derry depended for the survival of their rotten system on persuading the mass of the Catholic people that their interests were served as long as they kept their heads down. In every generation, thousands of Catholics broke from this decrepit alliance to make common cause with Protestants seeking a progressive way forward. This happened mainly, although not exclusively, in the context of the labour movement. It is not possible to understand the sectarian history of the North, and particularly of Belfast, without taking these factors into account. The smirk of bigotry on the face of the junior Paisley on Hearts and Minds on Thursday night suggested that he well understood how neatly Father Reid's remarks and reaction to them had fitted into the twisted, sectarian perspective of the DUP. Watching Father Alec Reid last week I could not help but feel sorry for him and a bit uncomfortable for myself. Like others he caught the media bug and came off the worse for it. Being a priest does not give him any immunity against human weaknesses or the wrath of others. Of course like the rest of us, he can be goaded, he can get angry and he can lose the plot. Last week he did all three. It is one thing to operate as peace conduit in the shadowy underworld of paramilitarism or to pontificate from the relative safety of the pulpit but it is an entirely different thing to enter the mantrap of the media world. The quiet priest was and is a political player and as such should be prepared for the rough and tumble of murky politics and in particular the politics of trading hurts. Being naive on the Hearts and Minds programme is excusable but his comments comparing past unionist treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland to Nazism are more than just regrettable. They were completely wrong. Anyone like me who has visited a concentration camp would know just how wrong. Of course he was goaded by an audience who did not want to listen. He was provoked by a speaker who has rarely faced up to his own myopic view of pain. Nevertheless, Fr Reid gave way to a choice of words that may have revealed a tinge of sectarianism that as Catholics we tend to deny in ourselves. As a leader of a faith community, Fr Reid should be even more mindful of what he says and where he says it. Many northern Catholics believe deep down that most northern Protestants will never change. Many more northern Protestants believe if you scratch the surface of most northern Catholics you will find an IRA supporter. These deep-seated suspicions are based less on experience of what Protestants or Catholics actually do or say and more to do with the urban mythologies corrupting our view of each other. Paramilitaries both orange and green have displayed more than enough signs of fascism to have copyright on the label – a label they deserve no matter how hard their political representatives try to spin it away. They murdered, butchered and maimed without fear or favour; with and without political cause. They robbed us of our youth, forced us to take sides and denied us free choice. They organise in militaristic fashion, police communities through fear, build media propaganda machines, intimidate other democrats, take over community groups and create political organisations all to further their own narrow agendas. They did justice to any Nazi Brown or Fascist Black shirt. Indeed at funerals they often wear the garb of fascism to remind the public of the sinister nature of power membership of their club bestows on volunteers. Often well-meaning mediators saw their mission as bringing these organisations in from the cold. These worthy and laudable advocates of peace thought that peace had no price, while in fact the price was already being paid by the innocent dead and the wasted years in prison. Fr Reid spent a lot of time bringing paramilitaries in from the cold. He had to look at them differently and less judgementally than the rest of society. Perhaps he had to don green-tinted glasses once or twice. In looking at them differently he must have had to struggle with their actions – after all he had watched what could only be described as a mob-driven crucifixtion of two soldiers in west Belfast. God knows what kind of conscience struggle Fr Reid the peacemaker faced over the years as the IRA continued its ill-warranted campaign while their politicos justified it. But he kept his eyes on the bigger prize of peace. All of which makes his comparison of unionism to Nazism all the more bizarre. Everyone knows that unionist political leaders for years fostered sectarianism, feeding it with annual doses of anti-Catholic rhetoric during the marching season. No-one questions that in the past there was systematic discrimination by political and civic unionism in employment. But to equate any of these actions with the Nazi treatment of the Jews is pure nonsense and in some countries could amount to the crime of denying the Holocaust and its true horrors against the Jewish faith. In quieter moments Fr Reid, as he no doubt will, may reflect deeply on the sentiments behind his analogy to both Protestants and Jews. But then again, perhaps so should we.Wolfgang take your blinkers off and attempt to see a Catholics side of it, or maybe you don't want to, is that closer to the truth ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 02:21 AM

Yes, those dirt poor hard working small farmers would often parade with the reserve to supplement their meagre income (like National Guard), as did thousands of others.
I always assumed that they were singled out for death because they could be hunted down and murdered on their remote farms with complete impunity. It makes more sense that they were killed as a kind of genocide. Perhaps Sweeney your political masters who pulled your strings thought you could stomach your bloody work better if you could tell yourself you were attacking "British Crown Forces"

I imagine that such stubborn farmers would be too proud to beg to be spared when you confronted them in their lonely fields. They would know that it would make no difference anyway.
You must have come across wives and children too on the farm. Did their pleas never reach your cold heart?

If only you or your masters could have seen that in the eyes of decent people, men who can carry out such acts of cold blooded murder to gain more political power, are not fit to hold any office.

And how could the friends and relatives of those butchered be expected to sit in council with the killers?

Another example of your infatuation with killing delaying the Nationalist people achieving their rightful status.

Thank God it is over, but will He forgive?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 04:55 AM

Keith, So those hard working dirt-farmers had to become members of the security forces to earn a crust, really Keith you haven`t a clue when it comes to the sick six.

Those farmers you referred to had the best land in the districts their ancestors usurped, and the reason they joined the security forces was to hold on to their ill-gotten gains,and make life a misery for any poor unfortunate Nationalist they encountered on a loney road.       Dirt-farmers don`t live in mansions, if you ever come over here you would be disappointed to find the only dirt-farmers are Nationalists.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:16 AM

Keith your posts get more deluded by the day. You paint a picture of these poor farmers scratching a living and earning the odd pound note by standing at roadchecks by night. Load of crap. Ard has summed it up in above post.I remember these guys all too well,no doubt you never meet one.Why do you never post on those Catholics that got shot standing on a street corner waiting on a lift to work at 7.30 in the morning ? Why do you not post on those Catholics that got shot through their living room window whilst lying on the sofa ? And as for the reasons they were shot, simply because of the faith they were born into.Why do you never post about the Shankill Butchers ? Come on Keith you seem to have covered every subject of late all in open support of the Loyalist cause in Ulster. Come clean Keith tell us all now, is it your belief that all Catholics are either Republicans or a worthy target because they won't yield to their Protestant masters ? Do you believe there was ever a Catholic singled out by the Loyalist death squad that didn't deserve it ? Awaiting your answer Keith.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:23 AM

They had to die because they were descended from the plantationists all those centuries ago?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:26 AM

Sweeney, do you need Wolfgang to tell you again who did the lion's share of all the killing?

For the record I feel loathing and contempt for both sets of killers.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,rezillos
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:27 AM

Keith,If you are a non-sectarian why do you only account for any attrocity committed by the British Army, RUC, Loyalist Paramilitaries at pointed out in above post ??? If there is to be any reconciliation surely people such as yourself who contribute to this site would see that wars cause unfortunate civilian casualties. And I hate these statements about this so called "Dirt hard Protestant farming community " do you not understand that modern day Republicanism was brought about by Wolfe Tone a great Protestant Arristocrat from Dublin. The Republicans were always lead by Protestant backers up until the turn of the last centuary the British divided our great heritage, strive for unification of the one country, why embrace a culture that belongs to a foreign land? Protestants and Catholics together again it would be marvelous, dont you undertsand England wanted this hatred dont let the bastards win, Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants have lots in common much more in common that with the British.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:30 AM

They were members of the Crown forces. And as for me needing a history lesson of Wolfgang, if that deserved an answer I would give it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:31 AM

And Sweeney,
all those congratulatory pms you get are likely from others desperate to be told that the cruel, counterproductive campaign they supported was really noble and successful.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:34 AM

Rezillo,
Well put.
I do agree at least with final sentence.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:44 AM

Keith, When the Independent Monitoring Commission - Northern Ireland's ceasefire watchdog - issues its seventh report today, the political focus will be on the pages that tell the story of the IRA. This is part one in a two-stage process which the British and Irish governments hope will lead to a restoration of the political institutions. The report will examine the current position of the IRA They were suspended three years ago amid allegations of IRA intelligence gathering inside the Northern Ireland Office. A second IMC report - its more important assessment in this phase of monitoring - is scheduled for January next year. By then, six months will have passed since the IRA statement of 28 July when it ordered an end to its armed campaign and promised to complete the decommissioning process. That has now been done to the satisfaction of General John de Chastelain's Independent International Commission on Decommissioning. But Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party wants absolute proof that the IRA has gone away, that all paramilitary and criminal activities have ended and that the organisational structure which made those activities possible has been collapsed. The October IMC report will be read for what it has to say about so-called paramilitary punishment attacks, intelligence gathering, recruitment, training and matters of this kind All of that, in such a tight time frame, is a lot to ask for. Current security assessments would suggest that the IRA Army Council is still in place and that its financial structures are intact. But this is an early assessment. There is a security view that the IRA is continuing to discuss its future shape; the next phase after its July statement and September decommissioning. The October IMC report will be read for what it has to say about so-called paramilitary punishment attacks, intelligence gathering, recruitment, training and matters of this kind. What do the trends show? Is there evidence that these things have been switched off? By and large the answer will be yes. The commission will also acknowledge that "significant" decommissioning has occurred. But it is the scheduled January assessment that will be read for answers to the biggest questions - those questions about the structure and intentions of the IRA. Will it confirm that the IRA has gone away? Will it confirm that the orders of the 28 July statement are being obeyed? And will it confirm that all activities have ended? 'Too soon' Some believe the January IMC report has been put on a "very high pedestal" - that in the real world, even January is too soon to make definitive assessments. The pages of Wednesday's report from the commission will tell the story of continuing loyalist violence - including murders linked to the feud between the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Loyalist Volunteer Force. But there is another story going on behind the scenes in this community. That feud has gone quiet. The last killing was on 15 August and clergy and community figures are still working to bring a formal end to this latest in-fighting. If that can be achieved, then the LVF could move to issue a statement it prepared last December - a statement standing down its paramilitary organisation. This would have been its response if the DUP and Sinn Fein had reached a deal back then and if the IRA had moved to end its activities and complete the decommissioning process. The republican organisation has now done those things and the LVF's planned response is back on the agenda. Loyalist violence will be discussed in the IMC report But it will only happen if that feud with its loyalist rival, the UVF, is formally closed. The UVF and the linked Red Hand Commando are also discussing the future of their organisations. This debate pre-dates the feud, but the internal discussions have not yet been brought to a conclusion. The talking is focused on a three-page document and on questions about the future role of the organisations, continued recruitment, how they are viewed within the loyalist community and the issue of dialogue, including the question of talking to republicans. All of this has been drowned out by the noise of the gunfire of that feud and recent attacks on the security forces - both the police and the army. However, behind the scenes there is some work going on to silence the guns, to re-focus loyalism and to somehow get it re-involved in the peace process. Can it match what the IRA has said and done? Keith the Provisional IRA has ended it's campaign, it's clear you haven't ended yours !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 05:48 AM

Don't you worry yourself about my pm's Keith. The posts your getting here says enough !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 07:31 AM

Keith, for a free read of one of the many forms of injustice in this fair land, Goggle in Internment by John McGuffin and read how the dirt-farmers and their British friends treated the nationalist population, also Wolfgang this will re-call shades of your countrys treatment of the JewS in the thirties.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 07:36 AM

Ard M.
I can't imagine many dwellers in "mansions" manning checkpoints through the cold, wet Fermanagh nights.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:04 AM

Keith, do all of us a favour on this Site and educate yourself on what goes on in this fag-end of the British empire, just a few pages of McGuffin`s book may shed some light on your ignorance.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:26 AM

Keith the four wheel drives parked at really big houses of these farmers who served in the Crown Forces is a common sight. No hardship here. Yet again ard has delivered the goods, this is a must read.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:12 AM

One of the best things I read recently (in the Guardian, I think) was how at the most recent decommissioning the protestant minister helped drag sacks of explosives away while Father Reid complained of a heart condition and sat by smoking his pipe...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:27 AM

And your evidence for concluding that the heart condition is not real?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:29 AM

perhaps you are right Sweeney

A farmer with a 4 wheel drive.

Bullets in the head is too good for such an aristocrat!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:31 AM

Hi there Divis you certainly do have all the hall marks of at true PIRA man. When faced with a statement about Protestant Farmers being murdered in their fields we get the traditional PIRA flat denial of any such occurence:

"Divis Sweeney - 16 Oct 05 - 05:43 PM
I honestly don't think I have ever read a greater load of cock in my life........
5. Protestant farmers were murdered in their fields. NAME ONE."

Two sources are then provided by - Wolfgang - 18 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM
"Divis, read 'Lost lives' and you'll find names of protestant farmers murdered in the fields.

In an admirable recent article in the New York Review of Books, Fintan O'Toole described the IRA's campaign of communal violence in Northern Ireland over the past quarter-century. Quite apart from well-publicised bombings in Enniskillen or the Shankhill Road, there was a systematic policy of killing only sons of Protestant farmers in western Ulster, a most effective form of ethnic cleansing. (from here. Another source for IRA killing protestant farmers in their fields is 'Lost Lives'."

Divis being a typical PIRA Man now thinks, "Oooops someone (Not a Brit) knows the truth." Someone has some knowledge, so having denied that the events referred to ever happened I will now attempt to bluster my way out of it without even attempting to explain away the downright lie told earlier:
Divis Sweeney - 18 Oct 05 - 03:23 PM
"Many border farmers were members of the RUC or UDR and in earlier cases the RIC."

"Any of those who were considered legitimate targets by the movement were shot because they were members of the British Crown Forces, nothing else."

"Most Protestant border farmers were part time members of the Crown Forces, as were their fathers before them."

So Divis are you trying to tell us that all the farmers, farm labourers, etc, murdered by the PIRA were members of the Crown Forces - careful before you answer, we already appreciate that you will lie at the drop of a hat - it's the norm for Sinn Fein/PIRA Spokesmen.

Wolfgang came up with an interesting figure in relation to the Protestant population of the RoI falling by 70% from 10% at time of Partition (1921) to 3% today. It would be interesting to know the corresponding drop in NI.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

paragraphs guest, please. very difficult to read.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM

"Catholic Priest clears his chest". Can we stick to the subject matter in question. The IRA have retired all their weapons have been put beyond use. It seems some of you can't get past that.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 06:46 PM

Teribus, Please don't for one second that my desire not to enter into debate with you as a sign of weakness. Having read your previous posts on this site and your hate of the Irish people and your idol boasts of your treatment of suspected members of the Provisional IRA I do not recognise you or your silly posts.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

Teribus
Bill, It's clear your war with the Provisionals is still on going. Did you not come out of Ulster a happy man ? Regarding Divis Sweeney and his strong rightous stand on the role of Republicans, there are just some questions you don't ask on this site. I see you boasted that you made IRA men squeal like pigs, do you feel proud of this? I admire Sweeneys response not to engage with you, proves he has moved on and has in many of his posts welcomed the move towards peace. Sad you can't. Reading posts from both of you tonight I admire his dedication to his cause and only see a spuing of venom from you. Is this normal British Behaviour ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:27 PM

Not normal British behaviour, I think. Just the response of a few who can't find answers to the accusation that Loyalists were also engaged in acts of terrorism, a fact they seem unable to acknowledge. So it's easier for them to give vent to their continued hatred of nationalists.

Let's face it, both sides behaved in a wholly unacceptable manner.

The difference seems to be that the Nationalists have cut the ground from under the loyalists by being the first to move toward peace, and would seem entitled right now to the higher moral stance.

I don't think the loyalists can cope with that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:31 PM

Perhaps I should add that Divis and I are naturally on opposite sides.

Nonetheless, I think his attitude, if typical of his side, bodes better for the future peace of Northern Ireland than many others involved in this discussion.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:34 AM

GUEST 19 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

"I see you boasted that you made IRA men squeal like pigs,"

And

Divis Sweeney - 19 Oct 05 - 06:46 PM

"..your idol (idle?) boasts of your treatment of suspected members of the Provisional IRA I do not recognise you or your silly posts."

Where? When? examples please

And is Divis Sweeney the same one as boasted earlier of popping of one or two squaddies from the roof of the Flats?

Don T,
"Not normal British behaviour, I think. Just the response of a few who can't find answers to the accusation that Loyalists were also engaged in acts of terrorism, a fact they seem unable to acknowledge. So it's easier for them to give vent to their continued hatred of nationalists."

Can't find answers to the accusation that Loyalists were also engaged in acts of terrorism, for the entire period of my first stint in Northern Ireland (1969) it was the Loyalists who were attacking us.

And counter to what most seem to think I have and bear no hatered of the Irish, Irish Republicans, Irish Nationalists, Irish Unionists, I even have quite a measure of respect for the Official IRA. My objections are reserved for a self-appointed group of murdering thugs, who, as was clearly seen in the referendum held throughout Ireland in 1998, had absolutely no mandate from the Irish people to act on their behalf. Who opportunistically jumped into an improving situation and succeeded in making it worse in order to further their own interests politically and financially. Who needlessly and indiscriminately killed and wounded thousands and then boast about it. Who terrorised the extorted from the very communities they were supposedly protecting. Believe me I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, and that I have often stated.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:39 AM

But will the likes of Divis be allowed to move on ? Seems here they have to answer for all their past sins, and accept a telling off. I note Loyalists retain their arms. The facts regarding British collusion with Loyalists is never addressed here by the pro British element I notice. So sad to see the very strong anti Irish feelings being expressed.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 03:27 PM

Teribus,
I also remember you making that remark, must search through posts. You remarked that when you were dealing with IRA you made them squeal.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 03:31 PM

perhaps because Mr Guest, the loyalists have murdered our troops as well as anybody else who takes their fancy.

The axis of evil.........another war you must be thinking of


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 03:31 PM

Good example of ex British soldier above. So it's true what is said about them !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:48 PM

I tried to contribute to this site earlier but could not get on.Is it fair to just attack eachother with recall of past events ? Do you really want to polarise both communities? Enough said, I'll say a prayer for you and your lost army members. though to be honest I'm not sure that you would even want that. Still, from the descriptionns published of your viewpoints etc, I think your soldiers would be decent enough to accept my prayers, even if it does come from a donegal taig. let the bigotry go, it will only eat you like a cancer. I have a friend from Fermanagh who lost two young cousins, shot dead in their house by the UVF, One of the UVF members later admitted the police had helped them with information on the area. Do you think he isn't consumed by the same hatred for the security forces as you are for republicans? I'm not saying you should forgive or ever forget but for the sake of us all you should try and move on. needless to say some wont.The IRA has said sorry, handed in their guns, stopped their bombings in England and Ireland. Yes some could be involved in crime, but tell me of a city in England which doesn't have organised crime? It would be a blessing to see Teribus and Divis Sweeney hold a civil conversation with eachother and show example to all here how two past enemies can unite and put their pasts behind them. Please set this example, I know all would welcome it.
DT


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Please note:

Neither

GUEST 19 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

Or

Divis Sweeney - 19 Oct 05 - 06:46 PM

Have responded to the request specifically asked of them.

As to:

GUEST,Fiolaris - 20 Oct 05 - 03:27 PM

I can say this with complete and utter certainty:
1. I have never interrogated anybody in my life.

2. I have first hand knowledge of the interrogation techniques employed by British Forces through exposure to those techniques in training

Guest; Guest, Fiolaris and Divis Sweeney - I am still waiting for an aswer to the question posed.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:25 PM

GUEST 20 Oct 05 - 02:39 AM

Questions asked:
"But will the likes of Divis be allowed to move on ?"
Divis Sweeney does not want to move on. Divis Sweeney takes every opportunity he can to provoke and gloat - I merely respond and when confronted with fact said Divis Sweeney gets upset.

"Seems here they have to answer for all their past sins" - Damn right they do. Because of their actions, directly, thousands of lives were scarred and irreparable damage was done. They haven't yet come anywhere close to accepting responsibility for that.

"I note Loyalists retain their arms." - That situation appears to be changing.

"The facts regarding British collusion with Loyalists is never addressed here by the pro British element I notice." - Good heavens Guest why be so coy, in the past on this forum not only have I referred to collusion between British Security Forces and Loyalists but also British Forces collusion between Official IRA, PIRA and INLA. It's a very messy business when you have so many players and you are trying to keep as many civilians alive as possible - Personnally I could give a damn about colluding with whoever as long as the end result is one set of bigotted thugs wipes out their direct counterparts - what that amounted to was less of the bigotted thugs of whatever persuasion being available on the streets to kill innocent civilians. By the way if you doubt that take a look at the Sutton Statistics provided by Wolfgang - numbers of women killed.

"So sad to see the very strong anti Irish feelings being expressed." - Well actually Guest if you read through this thread you see very little anti-Irish sentiment being expressed. What you would see is a condemnation of the self appointed thugs and criminals who have terrorised the people of Northern Ireland for years and who by and large continue to do so, regardless of the wishes and will of the greater majority of the people of the island of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM

Dear Dear, this poor guy appears to be talking to himself. Teribus no one cares. Go and haunt a house or something.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:27 AM

Why?
Is it just easier to pretend he is not there than answer his points?
You have no excuse.
The allegation against him was made up.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 07:40 AM

Terribus has silenced the Mudcat Irish Republican lobby!
Some achievement!

Interesting in the light of our recent discussion where almost everyone said that all should be welcome on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:16 AM

Silenced the IRA ? Your army failed to do it. They are now playing the right line here, starve you two of the Oxygen you crave. The support for Sinn Fein must really get to you, does it?.Ah well talk away gentlemen, just watch your government keep on handing out the sweeteners ! No victory medal for your men who served in Northern Ireland ? Are you aware the British government handed out 2.4 million to ex republican prisoners groups last year ? they didn't even ask for it. Whats the name of that British army trauma support group ? They got 1 million. Says it all ! I see by the amount of posts above it's clear this gentleman did make the remark.Keep up the silent boys.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:25 AM

I'm getting confused, is there more than one guest. One minute you're all tearful about the dead folk, next minute you're going all IRA rampant - wasn't it great our lads gave the brits a pasting etc. Perhaps you could have a number.

guest 1, guest 2, and so on


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:29 AM

if he did where is it?
You boys are seeing things.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:32 AM

If he said you say he said, where is it?
You boys are seeing things.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:41 AM

Really Keith, is that really what it is all about. Silencing the Republicans. If it makes you feel better. You won. Happy now? Maybe you can contact Joe Offer and collect a little Mudcat gold star. This is so pathetic. You and your pal above have succesfully hijacked another thread to further your own agenda. You're like broken records and to be honest debating with you on the subject of N. Ireland is pointless. With statements like, "those dirt poor hard working small farmers would often parade with the reserve to supplement their meagre income." You dash completely any modicom of credibility you may have on discussions concerning N. Ireland. If that statement were not so embarrasing for you it would be quite funny. I doubt that the underlying reasons for Fr. Reid's outburst will ever be debated on with any objectivity on this site.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 09:13 AM

You have got me completely wrong Den
I was not celebrating your silence, but trying to encourage you to tear into Terribus in debate.
Rip his statements apart like you do mine!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 09:54 AM

I am not a Republican.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 10:36 AM

A question I asked earlier:

"Wolfgang came up with an interesting figure in relation to the Protestant population of the RoI falling by 70% from 10% at time of Partition (1921) to 3% today. It would be interesting to know the corresponding drop in NI."

Couldn't get back to 1921 for figures, but I did get this:

Demographic Results from 1961 Census of Northern Ireland
Recorded Population - 1,425,462
Catholic - 34.9%
Protestant - 53.2%
Others - 11.9%

Demographic Results from 2001 Census of Northern Ireland
Recorded Population - 1,685,267
Catholic - 40.3%
Protestant - 36.0%
Others - 23.7%

Now hang on a minute, this is the place where according to the good Fr Alex Reid, the Catholics have been treated like animals, in fact no better than the Nazi's treated the Jews. Amazing!! I know that the Nazi's were in power for only 12 years and the period above covers 40, but did the Jewish population of Germany increase under Nazi rule? I know temporarily the Jewish population of Poland did, but that was very temporary and referred to as the holocaust. Meanwhile, down in the RoI where everything is supposed to be all sweetness and light the Protestant population has fallen dramatically - so all the chatter about ethnic cleansing on these figures applies to which part of Ireland again? I have not yet heard of any credible programme of ethnic cleansing where the population of those being ethnically cleansed A) Stayed put, and, B) Actually increased.

Another interesting set of figures from the Northern Ireland Life and Time Survey of 2003:

Religion/Political Affiliation
Protestant/Unionist - 68%
Protestant/Nationalist - 1%
Protestant/None - 29%

Catholic/Unionist - 0%
Catholic/Nationalist - 60%
Catholic/None - 36%

Totals
Unionist - 38%
Nationalist - 24%
Neither - 35%

Northern Ireland Life and Time Survey of 2004 found the following:
Desire to remain within the UK - 59%
Desire to unite with RoI - 22%
Form and independent State - 11%
Other - 8%

Another interesting set of data relating to population figures for Northern Ireland:
1891 - 1,236,056 - baseline
1961 - 1,425,462 - population increase 189,406 or 15.32% (70 years)
1981 - 1,738,000 - population increase 312,538 or 21.93% (20 years)
1992 - 1,610,300 - population decrease 127,700 or 7.35% (11 years)
2001 - 1,685,267 - population increase 74,967 or 4.66% (9 years)

Now lets see when were Divis and all the other self-appointed guardians/liberators/defenders active 1969 to 1994. Looks like people stuck it out for the first part then departed in droves once the said self-appointed guardians/liberators/defenders had suceeded in making a complete and utter hell-hole of the place. Now that they have stopped the population is on it's way back up. The period Fr. Alex Reid was talking about was in the era 1961 to 1981 - Correct?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 10:55 AM

Re content of GUEST 21 Oct 05 - 08:16 AM post

It is exactly that sort of thing I referred to when I said:

"My objections are reserved for a self-appointed group of murdering thugs, who, as was clearly seen in the referendum held throughout Ireland in 1998, had absolutely no mandate from the Irish people to act on their behalf. Who opportunistically jumped into an improving situation and succeeded in making it worse in order to further their own interests politically and financially. Who needlessly and indiscriminately killed and wounded thousands and then boast about it."

Aye laddie, by all means remain silent, crawl back under your rock and remain there. But do not think for one minute that you can spout your line of tripe here unchallenged.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 01:37 PM

And I used to wonder why people shot soldiers ? Maybe to keep their mouths shut. This coming from a guy who said he made Irishmen Squeal like pigs. Such a nice person. Just go away you old creep.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

What is going on in Northern Ireland?, I see that the government has restored Sinn Fien`s assembly money, no doubt back-payed. We keep hearing how the IRA surrendered, well if that is the case they are now the leading Irish party in N Ireland taking over from John Hume`s Party.

On this Site were I come for information on the north some of the members seem to know nothing of what is happening in NI, but that dosen`t seem to deter them from giving an opinion, surely living in NI would qualify for a person giving valid points.

I served in NI during the mid 70s and my time there dosen`t make me an expert on the place, I will say that our government whether under Labour or Tory have made some very wrong decisions down the years, Internment being a terrible mistake only interning members of the Catholic population, at last it seems that the Catholic side are willing to compromise, unfortunately this will never bear much frut while the Rev Paisley is the leading Protestant politician.

In conclusion I met some very friendly people on both sides of the divide and nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see a permanent peace in NI.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:26 PM

Teribus I have never met anyone on this site so infected with loathing as you. What exactly are you trying to prove with all these stats? Are you really insinuating that nationalists in the north of Ireland have no cause for grievance then I'm sure that you share Mr Paisleys analogy in regard to your stats that, "catholics breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin." Noone called Mr. Paisley to task over this and other insiteful remarks that he made. Fr. Reids words did not send his supporters into a frenzy of house burning. But then again that is not your concern is it? Your job in N. Ireland was to retain the status quo. Protect the union and a protestant state for a protestant people.

Do you know FR. Reid personally? Do you really know anything of his background. It seems to me that you have quite a bit of free time on your hands. You might want to use that for a little more meaningful research.

I think Fr. Reid's choice of words was unfortunate. I think a better parallel would have been the system of apartheid. I have heard from people who were at the meeting who said that he was heckled all the way through his speach by those hurling sectarian abuse at him. Noone seemed to mind that.

Finally Teribus maybe you would like to tell us exactly what it was you were doing during your visit to Ulster and how you failed to understand the climate of oppression that your Government and military helped to maintain.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:05 PM

Den, just let him keep going, he's doing more for the Nationalist cause here then all the Nationalists/Republicans could ever hope to do. Him and his croonie can only attack the Nationalist community. Their support for loyalism is clear. Has all the hallmarks of a failed warrior, which in reality he was. And the slaps on the back from Keith I notice are getting fewer. As a Nationalist and not a Republican I have to admire the unity they have shown here by ignoring this fool.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:43 PM

In 1935 the Nazis demonstrated their repudiation of civilisation by the Burning of the Books. Though this involved no loss of life, more than any other act it defined what Hitler was about, it was a chilling message to those who cared to listen. In 1993 the UVF fire-bombed the Linen Hall Library. More than any other act of terror this defined what the UVF are all about. The burning of books is the ultimate denial of any pretence to civilised values. Like Goering, when they hear the word "culture," Loyalisim reaches for its revolver. How much evidence do we need? they don't even pretend to be other than Nazis. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Hitler was intent of the ethnic cleansing of the Jews? How many ethnic Nationalists have been cleansed by Loyalists from the north eastern areas of Ulster, and how many ethnic nationalists can watch Loyalist representatives on television and look into their eyes without a shiver of fear as to their Ultimate Solution? Goebbels was the father of propaganda and invented the notion of the Big Lie. How he would have admired UVF audacities as it denies involvement in criminality in general and specifically the drug dealing. I believe that the DUP currently win about one third of the votes cast in Northern Ireland elections. With a similar vote, Hitler had a mandate to murder six million Jews and who knows how many other innocents. None of us on this island is without sin and we should be loath to cast stones. But anyone who seriously believes the UVF is not involved in criminality, as does Dr Pasiley is either wilfully stupid, criminally naive, or it seems most likely, party to the Big Lie. Whatever the reason, he can have no pretence to credibility as a leader. For most of my adult life, I have voted Unionist. In despair I watch as DUP gain support. I despair of a community, that gives them succour. When I contemplate the level of support for Loyalists I am disinclined ever to vote again. If it talks like a Nazi, lies like a Nazi, pillages and burns like a Nazi, and kills like a Nazi ? it's a Nazi. The cap fits and the DUP wears the cap. Tom Gilbert, Straid, Co Antrim.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:49 PM

I hope you two read this. Well said Tom.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 06:17 PM

Have to agree with GUEST 01.52pm. My brother in law did three tours in Ulster and found the nationalists friendly and republicans were never abusive towards him. His patrol was shot at by Loyalists ! We often ask what are they loyal to ? The Crown or the half crown ! We went over last year with him and his wife. Went into two shops which were owned by Catholics which he used to get his fags in. One owner remembered him. Great people and maybe this guy in the above posts needs to go back, then again, those he supports are still at war.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Hillheader
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM

If you think you know the answer you do not understand the question.

Read "Rebels" by Peter de Rosa. Not a part of the UK history curriculum.....but should be.


Cheers
Davebhoy

Ex LOL, Non Catholic, Nationalist/republican


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 12:19 AM

So come on GUEST 21 Oct 05 - 01:37 PM

Just when and where did I say that I, "...made Irishmen Squeal like pigs." I have asked those who laid that charge at my door quite pointedly to support their claim - they have remained completely silent. I now challenge YOU PERSONALLY to come with PROOF of such acts or else deliver a public apology to me on this forum.

I certainly hope you understand this message you nameless, annonymous, child molesting TWAT.

GUEST 21 Oct 05 - 06:17 PM no doubt you do agree with GUEST 21 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM for all we know you are probably one and the same person, thereby making your comments and observations irrelevant.

Now lets get on to Den 21 Oct 05 - 02:26 PM who of course is not a Republican - remember he went to great pains to tell us so.

OK Den, the non-republican, instead of attacking me personally, please explain how you can support the contention of Fr.Alex Reid when within the time frame he was talking about the Catholic population of Northern Ireland increased by a greater margin in twenty years than in the previous seventy years - masochism maybe??? And listen you tosser I want actual counter arguement, not populist myth that you seem totally at ease propounding.

Now on to GUEST 21 Oct 05 - 05:49 PM

"I hope you two read this. Well said Tom." I take it the two he meant were myself and Keith. So what was so well said by Tom that unamed Guest had to go into print over:

GUEST,Tom 21 Oct 05 - 05:43 PM

"In 1935 the Nazis demonstrated their repudiation of civilisation by the Burning of the Books. Though this involved no loss of life, more than any other act it defined what Hitler was about, it was a chilling message to those who cared to listen. In 1993 the UVF fire-bombed the Linen Hall Library. More than any other act of terror this defined what the UVF are all about."

OK Tom Gilbert, of Straid, Co. Antrim given the above as read just exactly what is your take on an organisation that set 24 bombs to go off with 2 hours in centre of Belfast in the middle of the day. As you say above the burning of the library involved no loss of life - what were the bombs supposed to do? Oddly enough the bombs were timed and planted by an organisation that declared that it did not target innocent civilians - who did they expect to be walking round the centre of Belfast at that time of day? Somehow, on this subject, I do not think this forum will get a reply from Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim.

I will however attempt to answer some of the questions he has raised:

"How many ethnic Nationalists have been cleansed by Loyalists from the north eastern areas of Ulster" - As the Catholic population of Northern Ireland has increased over the years in accordance with the figures given in official census I would say minimal - now Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim give us figures to back up your claim - if you cannot then shut the fuck up.

"How he would have admired UVF audacities as it denies involvement in criminality in general and specifically the drug dealing." And of course Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim the PIRA, CIRA and RIRA have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with crimial activity and drug dealing - Are you actually asking us to believe that - again, give us hard fact or shut the fuck up.

"I believe that the DUP currently win about one third of the votes cast in Northern Ireland elections. With a similar vote, Hitler had a mandate to murder six million Jews and who knows how many other innocents." Just what are you saying here Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim? Wolfgang has given us the statistics for deaths in Northern Ireland - The DUP did not murder the bulk of innocents killed during 'The Troubles', the PIRA did.

"...anyone who seriously believes the UVF is not involved in criminality, as does Dr Pasiley is either wilfully stupid, criminally naive, or it seems most likely, party to the Big Lie." Tom Gilbert of Straid Co, Antrim please declare here on this forum that the PIRA, RIRA and CIRA are not involved in criminality - the police forces of Northern Ireland and the Republic are of a singularly different opinion, and have the evidence to back it up. So, come on Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim please put your proof forward so that the matter can be cleared up.

I do not believe we will hear from Tom Gilbert of Straid Co. Antrim, but we will hear from some annonymous Guest.

GUEST,Fiolaris, you were asked to substantiate an accusation you made with regard to myself - I note that in your post of 21 Oct 05 - 05:05 PM you declined to do so. Just as a matter of factual record can you explain why?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 01:03 AM

Hey Divis Sweeney - has this got anything to do with you or your colleagues, maybe this was one of the squadies you popped from the roof of the Flats:

An Account: PROVO "Disappeared" victim Jean McConville

The 31-year torment of the family came to a head a month ago when widow and mother-of-ten Jean's remains were found at Shelling Hill Beach, Carlingford, Co Louth. The family gathered at the Co Louth site and when Helen Jean McConville's daughter) discovered a bullet in the back of the head had killed Jean she suffered acute distress She had difficulty breathing and fell severe chest pains. Jean's remains were taken to England for forensic tests and to compare DNA samples taken from Helen to prove the identity of the skeleton.

Helen was later told by a policeman of her mum's tortured final hours. IRA torturers had chopped off Jean's fingers to make her admit she was an informer. Then Jean, kneeling before a cowardly thug, was killed with a bullet in the back of the head.

Helen's husband Sean, a founder of the Families Of The Disappeared pressure group, said: "We have been told the digits on one hand were missing. We will have to wait until the inquest to tell for sure how mutilated her body was".

Provos shamed for the senseless and cowardly murder have owned up to murdering nine of The Disappeared. Four of those have been found, but it is believed there are at least six others the IRA dealt with.
The nine were kidnapped, tortured and maimed, and buried in shallow graves in out-of-the-way places.

The Disappeared from the Seventies and Eighties came back to haunt Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams during the height of the peace process in the mid-Nineties. He met Helen and Sean McKendry and denied all knowledge of The Disappeared. Only after US president Bill Clinton intervened did the IRA admit its Belfast Brigade was responsible for Jean McConville's disappearance. The Provos had always lied that she was an informer who had run off with a British soldier and was in England.

Helen's real 'crime', her family believe, was to tend a dying soldier hit by an IRA sniper's bullet outside her home in the Divis Flats complex in the Lower Fails. A neighbour said she put a pillow under his head (the soldier's) and whispered a prayer in his ear. That act of Christian charity was as good as a death sentence.

On December 6, 1972, a gang of thugs sent a false message into a social club where she was playing bingo that Helen had been knocked down by a car. Jean, who was barely 5ft, was lured outside, pounced on by IRA hoodlums and interrogated, abused and battered. Police later found her wandering barefoot on a bitterly cold night.

The following night she suffered another dose of mob rule. A gang of 12 masked Provos - eight men and four women - burst into her home and dragged her from the bathroom. She was bundled screaming into a car as some of her children watched. It was the last picture of their mum they have in their minds. The terrified mother, still in pain from the previous night's savagery, was tortured and finally forced to kneel. She was murdered with a single shot.

In January, 1973, a man delivered Jean's purse to her home with three of her four rings. Police said it was the Provo message that she would not be seen again. Members of the McConville family know the identities of several of the gang of 12 that dragged their mother away. They pulled off their balaclavas as the children watched the terrible scene. Helen said: "I know at least three of those in the gang who abducted my mother. One lived nearby. "I came face to face with one of the women in Belfast city centre one day but she never told me what she knew '

A funeral mass is booked for October 16 at St Mary's Church in Chapel Lane Belfast, where Jean was a regular worshipper with her brood.
St Mary's Church is also the place where the first memorial service was held following the creation of Families Of The Disappeared in 1996. A go-between told the family the IRA felt it wouldn't be in their interest to hold a large funeral. Jean's children accused the terror chiefs of being embarrassed by the murder and plan a huge funeral to which the world's media will be invited. Seamus McKendry, author of a book on The Disappeared, said: "We want the world to know what the IRA did."

Oh yes you guys will go down in the history books as heroes - fact is you're a couple of rungs below child molesters in the criminal heirarchy.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 04:37 AM

Well it appears this ex British soldier who claims he made Irishmen squeal like pigs when he served in Ulster, as confirmed by above posts, is against the ropes. He is now referring to other posters in the hope they to come to his rescue and they don't appear to want to know him. Even the Republicans aren't answering him.Teribus we have all seen you get wiped on Mudcat, but never as bad as this. Take advice Bill and leave it.From an outside on this subject such as myself, it's time to walk away and accept defeat.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 07:25 AM

No answers?

No substantiation of claims made?

Thought not.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,The Wandering Minstrel
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 07:59 AM

It has been quite a time from I ventured back to the Mudcat, glancing through the threads for the past few hours I always find them interesting and not without the spats and spits.

Teribus dosen`t seem to have realised that the war in Ulster is over,his various posts leave no doubt as to who he supports, also why does he continually foul-mouth his opponents, he comes across as a nasty indivdual, so dear Teribus please continue with the medication and take your GP`S good advice.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 09:29 AM

I would substantiate the above. I think it's reasonable to assume there is some form of an underlying psychosis present.The fact he goes into denial over the remarks he made about the Irish, his uncontrolled fits of anger and his fixation with one subject leads me to this conclusion. I suggest Teribus you contact a group in London called AT EASE. They are a confidential counselling service for members and ex members of the Armed Forces. Their address is 1 Elgin Avenue London W9.Good luck with it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 10:24 AM

Here I am again, just returned home and I see the thread has become quite nasty! And I think this is a fight I would like to stay out of. If I may make one request, though...

Teribus stated:

I will however attempt to answer some of the questions he has raised:

"How many ethnic Nationalists have been cleansed by Loyalists from the north eastern areas of Ulster" - As the Catholic population of Northern Ireland has increased over the years in accordance with the figures given in official census I would say minimal.

Once more, I would like to ask all mudcatters, whether members or guests, to not use the terms Nationalist and Catholic as interchangeable, or loyalists and protestant as interchangeable as well. I realize the majorities of those within those groups that profess to believe in certain doctrines of faith, but they don't comprise the whole of the group. This seems to be my sticking point, doesn't it catters? :) But I obviously feel strongly about it since I point it out anytime someone uses the terms interchangeably.

Hope everyone is doing well! Enjoy the rest of the day....:)

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 06:50 PM

No answers?

No substantiation of claims made?

Thought not.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM

No answers ? I think there was a lot of answers to you.
No substantiation ? I think my the amount of posts about your remark it is without any doubt that you did say it. Shame on you.
As a Canadian with Irish roots you make me sick. Making people squeal does not make you any type of hero in anyones eyes. I would contact that help group someone adivsed.And what did you mean about that builders yard in Balham in your earlier post ? Speak clearly or keep quiet.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 04:00 AM

Subject: RE: BS: How far should a insult go ?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 07:39 PM

I just had your boasting pm forwarded to me. God you are so sick Teribus.

Have you really? Then you will have no problem in simply providing a reference where we can all view it.

GUEST 22 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM

"No substantiation ? I think my the amount of posts about your remark it is without any doubt that you did say it. Shame on you."

Just for arguements sake I will assume that you are a different person, from GUEST. Just because a lie is repeated over and over again will never make it the truth.

"And what did you mean about that builders yard in Balham in your earlier post ? Speak clearly or keep quiet."

If this is an example of the accuracy of your research into my input, it clearly illustrates that you haven't got the foggiest notion of what you are talking about. I have never made reference to any builders yard in Balham, not surprising as I have no idea where Balham is, let alone know if it has any sort of builders yard.

Take your own advice GUEST - Speak clearly or keep quiet.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 04:11 AM

I really would take the advice of this post.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 09:29 AM

I would substantiate the above. I think it's reasonable to assume there is some form of an underlying psychosis present.The fact he goes into denial over the remarks he made about the Irish, his uncontrolled fits of anger and his fixation with one subject leads me to this conclusion. I suggest Teribus you contact a group in London called AT EASE. They are a confidential counselling service for members and ex members of the Armed Forces. Their address is 1 Elgin Avenue London W9.Good luck with it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 04:55 AM

AT EASE



Contact:


-



Address:








28 Commercial Street

Aldgate East

LONDON

E1 6LS



Telephone:


020 7247 5164 (Sundays 5pm-7pm only)



e-mail:


atease@advisory.freeserve.co.uk



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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:51 AM

GUEST - 39 posts ago you were asked to provide a reference to substantiate your claim. You say that it has been PM'd to you, yet find difficulty in sharing that information with the rest of us. Could the reason for that be that it doesn't exist and that you are a nameless, gutless, pathological liar.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 10:08 AM

Teribus, I seem to have touched a nerve with and you lashed out. I don't wish to add to your misery but its not very nice to call people names. However that's just my opinion.

You are fond of calling the PIRA, the official IRA and sundry catholics, thugs. Some could argue that you yourself have dislayed thuggish behaviour on this website, calling names using abusive language to/at others. Some people with experience of such things would say that that type of behaviour is exemplified by the British army. So help me out here Teribus who are the good thugs and who are the bad ones?

The war is over Teribus. We for the most part have moved on. I think it might be time to call time.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 10:34 AM

"You are fond of calling the PIRA, the official IRA and sundry catholics, thugs."

The above quote from Den, does not quite balance up with what I actually did say

"...counter to what most seem to think I have and bear no hatred of the Irish, Irish Republicans, Irish Nationalists, Irish Unionists, I even have quite a measure of respect for the Official IRA. My objections are reserved for a self-appointed group of murdering thugs, who, as was clearly seen in the referendum held throughout Ireland in 1998, had absolutely no mandate from the Irish people to act on their behalf. Who opportunistically jumped into an improving situation and succeeded in making it worse in order to further their own interests politically and financially. Who needlessly and indiscriminately killed and wounded thousands and then boast about it. Who terrorised then extorted from the very communities they were supposedly protecting. Believe me I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, and that I have often stated."

GUEST, GUEST Foilaris, Divis Sweeney - Still no reference offered - Wonder why?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 12:21 PM

Poor old tosser. I hate it when old soldiers can only talk about their war. Well during the war ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
The Republicans including the IRA hav moved on. On and up it would appear with a great poll every election.
And all this old gut can do is try to wriggle out of a remark he made about slapping about some Irish guys. Great hero.Hope he's not typical of a British soldier.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 12:52 PM

Well just back from a nice break on Achill Island in County Mayo. Very nice may I add. Did I miss anything ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Alex "blew-out Higgins
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 01:47 PM

Teribus just back from a nice break on the snooker table, hope you are still taking the tablets.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 01:51 PM

a spirited discussion amongst the unnamed

somebody said they didn't like the IRA

someone else said they didn't like the other lot

disagreement about what the other lot were called

usual sort of thing, and the Moonlight in Mayo?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 01:54 PM

weelittledrummer Please don't mention moonlight in front of one of the above posters, especaily the full moon


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 01:59 PM

I see one of the writers on this thread is unaware of Balhams location, it is a pleasant little hamlet on the Northern Line in London, I feel so insulted that the writer didn`t know.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 04:40 PM

well its as good as any of the other things to have an argument about


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 04:45 PM

I don't think there can be much argument about where Balham is located:

Balham is a neighbourhood in South London. That's from Wikipedia (or Wikipaedia) if yer from Balham.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 06:21 PM

Just reading over Teribus's most recent post and it brought a question to my mind. He quoted a statement he made previously and was speaking of the PIRA I believe when he wrote of how they "opportunistically jumped into an improving situation and succeeded in making it worse in order to further their own interests politically and financially."

With the recent events in the North of Ireland (an end called to the Republican war, PIRA decommissioning) it seems that the PIRA, through the period of their struggle against occupation and to their recent laying down of arms, have actually made things better for the North, at least for those interested in seeing the removal of British troops. I say this because their (PIRA) actions have, in turn, prompted the British and Irish governments into action. Despite their signing of the GFA, it is really the first time that either government has begun to move toward upholding their ends of the agreement. And now troops are being pulled out, spy towers are coming down, and a new North is emerging. But, I suppose some don't see it the way I do. So, was the PIRA's presence in the North responsible or not for the new turn of events?

I would be interested in hearing the views on that idea. Please, though, if we could keep the swearing down to a minimum, I would appreciate it :).

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 06:57 PM

E,

I think Terribus has his point of view.

I think you have your point of view.

I doubt if you will agree

like the Blessed Bob said

You're right from your side
i'm right from mine
we're just one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind

From having seen quite a few of these threads I should think the people who agree with you will think you're probably right.

I shouldn't count on the support of absolutely everybody.

all the best

al


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:02 PM

That's a great statement:
you're right from your side, I'm right from mine....

I realize that some may agree and some won't, but what I want is the reasons behind the opinions, the facts or ideas that formed those opinions. :)

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

Great song. Sang it for years. Not that it matters.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:11 PM

well that's the bit where everybody goes into John MacEnroe mode.

The facts are disputed - as you will probably have guessed. Plus they can presented in very inflammatory ways.

Basically we've all got to try and behave a bit better in the future, and hope for the best.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 01:43 AM

GUEST, GUEST Fiolaris and Divid Sweeney - Now 55 Posts have been made to this thread since you were requested to substantiate a claim you made against me - having trouble with 'cut and paste'? You are obviously not having any trouble typing. Or perhaps the real reason the reference to this supposed post of mine has not been furnished is that it simply does not exist - like so many of your arguements based on complete and utter figments of your imagination.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:07 AM

Must be a virus in my computer, this pop up keeps appearing ranting and raving everytime I visit this site. Ah well must do a scan and see can I quaritine it. Nasty little things aren't they.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:16 AM

Dear Teri
(can I call you that?)

look at it this way
buggered if I'm counting back 55

he thinks something happened
you don't

lifes like that sometimes
so is history - look at the kennedy assasination - nobody agrees with anything about that

whatever happened in the past, we have to be nice to each other in the future

either that or avoid those people whose vision of the world is unacceptable to you

you won't avoid these people on this sort of thread

take care mate!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 06:13 AM

"What goes around, comes around"...Ake


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:16 AM

A question for you wld, is it really that outlandish to ask for some proof of these allegations? Would you agree that to do so would be extremely simple.

I begin to believe that all three are one in the same person. I know they will not provide such a reference to any post of mine because it does not exist. Apart from which I can say with absolute certainty that I have never interrogated anyone in my life so it would be very hard for me to have - how did they put it - "made them squeal like pigs" because of the way I treated them.

We have already seen on this thread that Divis Sweeney is a bare-faced liar, like most who espouse the cause of the paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.

Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 06:46 PM

"Having read your previous posts on this site .... and your idol boasts of your treatment of suspected members of the Provisional IRA I do not recognise you or your silly posts."

GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

Teribus ..... I see you boasted that you made IRA men squeal like pigs, do you feel proud of this?

GUEST,Fiolaris - PM
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 03:27 PM

Teribus,
I also remember you making that remark, must search through posts. You remarked that when you were dealing with IRA you made them squeal.

GUEST; GUEST FIOLARIS; DIVIS SWEENEY - Proof please - come along chaps you've had damn near a week. You've reportedly been pm'ing it around to yourself, although exactly how that could have been done to an unnamed Guest on this forum I do not know, but it must be a hell of a lot harder than just pasting and copying it to this site for everybody to read.

Gentlemen - You Lie Like Pigs in Shit - this I believe is an insult to pigs who are honourable creatures - you lot, on the other hand are not.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 10:52 AM

One can always go to the advanced super search of Mudcat and find easily within a few seconds whether there has been a post with the words 'IRA' and 'squeal' in it, before the last few days.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 10:59 AM

Bloody virus seems to be back on my computer. So much for a good firewall.Oh how I remember those days when I was told to stand up against a wall here in Belfast and answer questions regarding my daily movements to a British soldier.Questions question questions. Funny how some people just can't seem to move on. It's said that fixations can lead to Paranoia. On the other hand it's also said that productive dialogue with the British government can lead to self-determination in local government. I would feel for the largest nationalist voice in North of Ireland politics that would be moving on. Must get this virus scan up and running after I enjoy this bacon sandwich.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:05 AM

Try the Iraqi threads from last year...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

News as of 15 Jan 05 ALERT: The recent mudcat problems are due to adware installed on Mudcat user's computer, specifically something called FunWebProducts. There is an article about it here (click). Apparently it's driving Web Masters crazy all over the world. I encourage everyone to download and run Spybot to rid your computer of this, and probably hundreds more adware and spyware software. ... [more]
Just saw this on forum page.
Hope this cures my computer of this blooding annoying virus.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:22 AM

The supersearch facility does not reveal the word 'squeal' in any posts at all. Time to apologise then eh Divis?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 12:06 PM

Another virus

Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: flamenco ted - PM
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:27 AM

Divis,
      You are one of the main pro IRA muck spreaders! When you and your ilk join ANY thread, I stop posting to it. Enjoy the rest of this thread, I'm gone.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 12:12 PM

Divis. You were wrong. Admit it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 12:20 PM

I found it ages ago, ted though not in exactly verbatim, but I couldn't give a toss, neither, as it happens.

The pride of Hamish Smith never won anything in my country by his antics.
We, however did.
In his.
By ours.

Both of us are alive to tell the tale.
Both of us can justify our actions to ourselves.

Who is right?

Not him


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 12:24 PM

"You have got me completely wrong Den
I was not celebrating your silence, but trying to encourage you to tear into Terribus in debate."


We hadn't, though, Keith.
You are a voyeur; a hurler on the ditch.
A holder of coats.

You probably have Joe 90 glasses as well


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 01:02 PM

annoying viruses


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 01:25 PM

Blurred View
(... as opposed to 'Bird Flu'...)

;-)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 02:16 PM

It would appear there is a problem the fact Republicans such as myself visit this site. As for those who wish to attack the Provisional Irish Republican Army, no problem go for it. Call them names, be selective on active service unit operations or rattle on about the role of the British army. Really means little to me that a few guys dislike our men. Yes I could go on about British army murders of Volunteers and innocent civilians, but why ? The leadership stood all units down in July after a long ceasefire. What do you want here, the units to resume military operations and select targets ? I am proud beyond words of the role of the Volunteers in my country. Young men who answered the call when required to do so.It was the British government who called our leadership to the table, not the other way round. Now the leadership has embraced a political role with the full backing of all chiefs of staff, O.C's and Volunteers.There was a full year of consultation at ground level. Really what is the problem with you guys ? If you can't accept Republicans in pursuance of self determination go cry to your government, it was them that came to us.We here in Ireland are glad to see young people getting on with normal lives and an end to ALL KILLINGS by ALL OF THOSE INVOLVED.
And if you wish to continue to call me all kinds of Republican related names, go for it. Because I will never forget I'm a proud Irishman. Get it with people, peace is here to stay and I am the first to embrace it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 02:48 PM

From Feakle to Hillsborough...

It is how history gets re-written, Divis, and precisely the reason why the British Establishment are forever doomed to repeat their mistakes.

The sooner decent people test the bounds of the logical fallacies their leaders and their apologists present to them, the sooner decent people wont feel the need to take up arms against their ruling class.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus - PM
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:22 AM

Jim McCallan 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

"Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years"

Salman Pak, last time I looked was North of the 33rd parallel, therefore outside the Southern No-Fly Zone.

As to the question asked a little bit earlier on:

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

How about:
- Remove watch, or any other means of referencing time
- Completely dark room
- Complete and utter silence

Place person to be interrogated under the above circumstances for approximately 3 - 6 hours, then just sit him down and talk to him quietly and rationally - it's amazing how effective it is.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,#2
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:06 PM

... who here remembers Steaknife?...

Hint.
Hint.

Nice try Guest.
Wrong Straw Man...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:12 PM

I'm enjoying this!

Like pulling teeth Teribus, eh?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:17 PM

... I'll tell you this, though, Bertrand...
You'd fall at the first fence under cross-questioning...

Hell, put you in a dark room, and you'd forget your way out...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

Dear Teri

I just think you're flogging a dead horse mate.

these people have made their minds up about this issue. as far as they are concerned it is an ex-issue. they have the version of the truth with which they are going to ride off into the sunset very happily.

Like i say I'm not going back fifty odd letters to find out what it is that worries you.

But lets suppose you are advancing the theory that Ian Paisley was Eamon DeValera's lovechild.

your DNA samples are wasted on these guys

trust me on this one. I have seen several threads like this before.

we all think differently. we all have to try t be nice to each other.

If you continue in this vein, you will upset yourself.

best wishes to all

al


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:38 PM

I think the idea is to try and make you think differently, wld.

It furthers nobodys future if the citizens if the oppressor do not demand more of their leaders.

The secret to harmonious living lie in the destruction of some of the old notions.
One being in particular, that the Irish are somehow second-rate civilians who do not bleed if you cut them.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM

some people think jesus died for us

some people think an Islamic republic is the way

you can produce arguments til you're blue in the face, but sadly there are some issues you won't change peoples minds about. or maybe not even sadly, who knows occasionally the other bloke is right.

we differ in our opinions

but we still have to get on, co-exist - be respectful of each other.   as much as is possible.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:13 PM

Not condoning the disgraceful way Ireland has been treated at the hands of the British over the years, transcends much more than mere opinion, wld.

The Nationalist population of the north of Ireland have been trying to co-exist with the Unionist population ever since the state's inception.
We are not a bitter people.

But for God's sake, don't discount us.
Respect will come in its time, no doubt.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,A Red Hander
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 07:34 PM

Have you ever heard such hypocrisy, an Englishman telling the Irish how to live ? Pull your head out of your ass because we are not having it. You may be a proud Englishman, as I am a proud Northern Unionist, but other world counties will never admire you, after all what have you done for the Ulsterman ? Nothing left us and closed our industry down and forgotten it's inhabitants. "We here in Ireland are glad to see young people getting on with normal lives and an end to ALL KILLINGS by ALL OF THOSE INVOLVED". But we held faith in our government and it simply walked away. It's so hard to swallow.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:15 PM

well you're right of course i wouldn't attempt to tell you how to live.

Just was commenting that having read several of these threads, I don't think our friend is likely to persuade anybody from the opposite side of the fence that his cause is just and true - whatever the facts of any matter.

As you say my head is probably up my ass, something certainly stinks.

I'll just leave you skilled debaters to it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 05:04 AM

Red Hander, It is your belief that having an armed militia, marching Orangemen through districts that despised their presence,being in total control of all sections of the law,making sure that jobs were dished out on a,`first Prod come first Prod served ` basis, and wholesale gerrymandering, was that the best you could offer to during your 50 years of office.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 05:36 AM

Firstly Red Hander that insulting remark was uncalled for. The man only made an observation without prejudice.This is not the North of Ireland as it was in the 1930's. If industry can't keep it's head above water, it goes down. Yes the British government poured money into the likes of the Shipyard, mackie's and shortts while other long established industries in other parts of Britain closed down.As above states, you did have a lot your own way and now we are moving towards a level playing ground and that's the part you can't accept.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 11:09 AM

... Friend of mine, having a quiet pint in a pub in Milan last week is overheard chatting to the bar man, by a guy who is sitting with his wife further on down the bar.

Guy comes up to my friend, London accents akimbo.
"Whereabouts are you from mate"?, he asks.
"County Derry" says my man.
"Oh..., I did a couple of tours in your country", says Magnanimous Fred
"Yeah?", says my mate. "I did a couple of tours in yours"

Now can anyone tell me why the conversation ended there?
... when they all seemed to be getting along so well...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 11:54 AM

I don't believe a single word of that last smug little post.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:23 PM

It happened, Ted.

I've had shit like that thrown at me too...
I've had my share of strange squaddie types since the Ceasefire telling me they've been over here.

Hell, if its going to be a topic of conversation, why make it one way, I always say.

The north of Ireland Nationalist gets told information like that which my friend (and I on ocassion) was privvy to.

Whether it be genuine ignorance on the part of the ex-squaddie, or genuine hostility, it should make no matter.

What kind of good conversations start when the topic is 'I did a couple of tours there', as opposed to 'How do you fancy Chelsea'a chances this season'

I actually can't believe that you don't believe a word of that last post of mine, ted.

Craic like that happens all the time...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:28 PM

weelittledrummer would still like to read your posts, don't allow that braindead red hander to badger of the thread, I doubt it was you he was aiming at anyway.At least he thought my post reasonable enough to lift phrases out of.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,TÌr Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Funny thing was, is that my friend is a musician, and has toured England many times...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:56 PM

The sentiment is farily typical however Divis, don't you think?

The last one to acknowlege the water is the fish...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:59 PM

I'm talking about Red Hander's sentiment....
though the squaddie could fit there also...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 01:59 PM

GUEST 24 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM IS THAT IT!!!!!!

Finally you come up with something that led you to state:

On this thread on 19 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM, "Teribus ..... I see you boasted that you made IRA men squeal like pigs, do you feel proud of this?"

Now let us see what I said on that post of mine that you have been furiously pm-ing to yourselves:

"As to the question asked a little bit earlier on:

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

How about:
- Remove watch, or any other means of referencing time
- Completely dark room
- Complete and utter silence

Place person to be interrogated under the above circumstances for approximately 3 - 6 hours, then just sit him down and talk to him quietly and rationally - it's amazing how effective it is."

Just a couple of points on the above that would be pretty self evident to anyone with even basic skills in comprehension of the English language.

1. The questions asks how would you, NOT how did you.
2. There is no reference to the IRA

But it does square with the very clear statement I made earlier regarding never having interrogated anyone in my life, but knowing of interrogation techniques used - exposure to them happened to be part of your training.

Guest; Guest Fiolaris; Divis Sweeney - you are a liar and a dissembler who would not recognise, or know, the truth if it jumped up and bit you on the nose.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

Tír Chonaill I know of many ex British soldiers who come over here with their families and go on the tours of Belfast by bus.Many talk about their experiences, but most feel it's a bit early to talk publicly.I have on the other hand meet ex soldiers in England who served in the North and were proud to talk about it, well they have that right, after all they were on their own turf.I laughed when I read your earlier post. I can relate exactly to what you said there.Been there listened to it and in fact one night in London a few years back sat talking to one about it. And while he was there in Belfast I was there in London. Interesting conversation ! See all you doubters out there we can be civil !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:11 PM

You obviously didn't read the post beneath it, Teribus


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 05:06 PM

Have to agree with you GUEST. When Divis talks about the future in Ireland it's postive. Seems to want peace and to put the past where it belongs.Has even said sorry for what happened. But that guy teribus seems stuck in the past going on and on about old deeds that the IRA did. There will never be a future in Ireland when dinosaurs like that are looking in on it. Pity he doesn't realise that few if any here are interested in his old stories and anyway he wouldn't be called upon to have any input to the peace process.My father served in the army and never spoke once about what he went through in Anzio with the Inniskillings. Never once called the enemy he fought vile names.Then again he was a professional soldier and Irish !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 10:04 PM

Holy God, Teribus, you'd think the world had ended the way you're getting on...
Somebody recalls from the back of beyond somewhere that you said that (or as is my opinion, you said words to that effect).

Nobody quite remembers where, cos you've said worse, and as your posts rarely creep above the quality of jingoistic white noise in the first place, frankly my deer, no one really gives a cow.

You seemed fairly willing to send your comrades off to their death in Iraq on a similar amount of evidence that the rest of the world required.

If memory serves me correctly, looking through your posting history, you sorta slipped under the radar, somewhere around the time of the scandal surrounding the British Army torture pictures.

Yeah, yeah Teribus.
Now you know what it's like to be demonised....


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:05 AM

GUEST,Tír Chonaill - 25 Oct 05 - 10:04 PM

My world has far from ended TC, the point is and always has been that GUEST; GUEST FIOLARIS; DIVIS SWEENEY lied, they were caught out at it and have tried to wriggle out of it - not unusual or uncharacteristic for people who support the particular paramilitary group that they do. The lying and dissembling, after all this time, has probably become second nature and they probably just cannot help it.

I did not send anyone away to war - I think that was done by the British Government - were they right to do so - Yes. The "evidence" that convinced them was supplied by the UN.

"If memory serves me correctly, looking through your posting history, you sorta slipped under the radar, somewhere around the time of the scandal surrounding the British Army torture pictures."

And if your memory continued to serve you correctly you will also remember that those 'torture pictures' hastely rushed into print by Piers Morgan to sell his paper were also fakes.


"GUEST,Fiolaris - 25 Oct 05 - 05:06 PM

Have to agree with you GUEST. When Divis talks about the future in Ireland it's postive."

Now this is just hilarious if you think that these are all one-and-the-same. No Fiolaris, the Divi, by his own admission only visits this forum to DEFEND the PIRA - nothing more, nothing less.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:34 AM

So naffing what, Teribus. It's a public forum. People come on and say what they like. Where do you get the creditentials to be a forum nazi?

You agreed that your country should send their young men and women off to their deaths, on the same relative amount of evidence that you now complain about not being in possession of....

Not being directly involved in this quest to defend your integrity, I can only observe that you're the one that's doing the wriggling, mate.

In this Brave New World of ours, evidence means very little, laddie.

Get used to it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM

I support, defend and I am proud of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. I welcome and desire peace in my country, defend my political party, Sinn Fein.As stated in my previous posts I regret all loss of life during our armed struggle. The war is now over and in the interest of a peaceful future all weapons/ munitions are now under concrete.If there is any part of this you find difficult to comprehend, please just ask for a repeat.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

GUEST,Tír Chonaill - PM 26 Oct 05 - 02:34 AM

Just to add comment to the contents of your post:

Your first paragraph - pure name calling. By the way I totally agree that people can say what they like. If however they make specific allegations against someone, they should be prepared to substantiate them, and if they cannot, they should at least have the balls to admit it.

Your second paragraph is inaccurate and irrelevant to the subject under discussion and has been the the topic of countless threads on this forum.

Your third paragraph misses the point entirely, it is not my "integrity" that is in question. It is the integrity and credibility of GUEST/GUEST FIOLARIS/ DIVI SWEENEY that is in question - In a personal attack on me (not my arguements) they made reference to something I had (was supposed to have said) stated previously, alleging that I had 'boasted' about mistreating/torturing PIRA suspects during interrogation. I asked them to substantiate this claim by producing the post of mine that they were refering to. They, if indeed these are different people, couldn't. They couldn't produce this post of mine because it does not exist - In short TC they lied, they attempted a smear campaign that has failed completely, they have been caught out lying to themselves and to everyone else on this thread. I am certainly not 'wriggling' as you put it, that I will leave to Guest/Guest Fiolaris/Divi Sweeney - they are doing a good job of it so far, and have been doing so for most of this thread. You never know what their next tactic will be - possibly create more Guest identities to leap to their defence and 'agree' with their point of view.

"In this Brave New World of ours, evidence means very little, laddie.

Get used to it."

Very good TC - that was exactly the underlying message given to the McCartneys by the PIRA - you might be content to live in the BNW of their creation, I fortunately don't have to, and I will continue to call it to book every chance I get TC, because it, like everything else associated with the paramilitary groups of Northern Ireland, stinks.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Fucking ditto mate!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:38 PM

As well as the 'Loyalist' paramilitary groups who are still armed and outwith a ceasefire agreement, there is also Continuity IRA and Real IRA, which no doubt some are equally as proud of as Divi is of the Provisional IRA, which came about in a similar fashion to CIRA and RIRA.

They are very much still at war - if any doubt that ask those who were lucky enough to survive Omagh.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:45 PM

'Ditto' was for Divis, of course....

What evidence do you have to back up your assertion that 'get used to it' was the underlying message, Teribus?
.. can't go around making unsubstantial claims, now, can we?

... and of course, I'll bring up any subject, irrelevant in your eyes or not, to highlight your hypocricies.

If it stinks, Teribus, it's because the British was involved in it.

How's the British Army people-trafikking in Kosovo going these days, incidentally?

Don't mention 'stink', Teribus.
The British invented the concept of the dirty war, so leave your high horse at the door, old son...


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:47 PM

Call me to book any time Terminal, many on this site used to give support to your posts, have you not noticed they are now all away ? Do you see a decline in my supporters ? So call me or the Provo's to book any time your ready and try this time not to make an ass out of yourself.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:55 PM

I also noticed Teribus's
loyalist lapdogs have vanished. When will he ever have the courage to respond to his bigoted viewpoints on this site?? As you can read from the other responses. Teribus
drones, like him, want nothing to do with peace. They still cling to the apartheid of Irish Catholics, that they have enjoyed for far to long. But those days are ending fast. And it scares the hell out of them. Peace is coming lads. whether you like it or not. I want to share this interesting article I found on Evangelical leaders condemning violence against Catholic communities. Time is against the loyalists. Peace will be the law of the land soon enough. Join the future Teribus
and loyalist apologists. Or remain in the miserable hate filled past you've helped create. EVANGELICALS CONDEMN NORTHERN IRELAND VIOLENCE Belfast, Sep. 19 (CWNews.com) - Evangelical leaders in Northern Ireland have joined in condemning violence against Catholic communities there. "We are simply appalled at the continuing violence on the streets, and ashamed that some who share our Evangelical faith will not condemn it," said Stephen Cave, the general secretary of the Evangelical Alliance of Northern Ireland. "As an Alliance we condemn this behavior unequivocally." The statement came after a week in which Protestant paramilitary groups threw gasoline bombs in dozens of Catholic neighborhoods, in the worst outbreak of violence in Northern Ireland for several years. Extremist groups have called Protestants in the region to activism, protesting what they see as the British government's concessions to the nationalist supporters the Irish Republican Army (IRA). The IRA has been hailed by British officials for its July announcement that it would renounce violence, and the release of a convicted IRA bomber has been seen by some loyalist groups as a betrayal. Evangelical leader Stephen Cave pointed a finger at one of those loyalist organizations, denouncing the Orange Order for stirring up violent protests. "The Orange Order, which on its website claims to be Christ-centered, Bible-based, and Church-grounded, has surely moved far from these roots when it calls people on to the streets, knowing in all probability that would lead to civil unrest," Cave said. "It is unacceptable that the Order has been slow to speak out or unequivocally condemn the violence that ensued, particularly that perpetrated by its own members." Yes I do know you made those remarks and also the remark about the builders yard in Balham which you tried to get out of.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:23 PM

I noticed he didn't bring Lord Brookeborough to book after being totally appalled at his comments, in the link that Tiocfaidh provided.

Teribus forgets also that Sinn Fèin, especially since the hunger strike has had a strong democratic mandate, so who the deuce is he to chide anyone for being proud of the protectors of our streets and housing estates from the SS/RUC, UVF/UDR, and the shower of embittered (esp) Scottish Regiments that used to just love their tours.

Thanks be to Jazus most of your proud history will be on the scrap-heap soon.

Bitter envy will get you nowhere, Teribus


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:25 PM

Keith must be having a field day....


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:55 PM

.... and another thing...

Where do you get off on the idea that the IRA leadership foresaw 9/11 and decided to get in there quick and strike some sort of deal before all hell broke loose?

Where has that arrogant line of thinking got you in the past, Teribus?

What difference would a 'War on Terror' have made to us?
What would you have done?

Carpet-bomb the North? Don't think so; White & Western, and the media would have a field day..
Arrest every Irish man, woman and child over the age of 14?
Yeah right! Watch the Diaspora come into its own ....

Fire is not fought with fire, mate.
Talks and discussions will always have to be made.
Getting the British to the table was a long and hard struggle, but don't confuse stalemate for defeat.
Stalemate had been a condition of the north of Ireland since 1922, so don't come on as if this was something new to us.

Everybody wants peace, Teribus.

We have fought long and hard for it.
We deserve it now


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:03 PM

Now we have an ex British Soldier who is so seething at the Irish patriots he TRIES to taunt them with old stories of murders. News for ya boy, we have NO love for old hate no matter where it comes from, your petty deflections aint working and we will ALL continue to hope for peace over here.The unionist community showed at the ballot box what they thought of the terror related D.U.P. and their beret wearing leader.I also like the people above have no intention of going through everything you ever wrote, in fact I would not know how to. Please enlighten me about the Builders yard in Balham remark, if you can remember it, that is ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:12 PM

I remember something about the Builders Yard in Balham thing. Will try to find it later,can't remember the thread, does anyone else ? he was going on giving Ralph a hard time over something. Sorry memory failing me, getting like Teribus !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:46 PM

"Your first paragraph - pure name calling" Teribus: 26 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM
"Only the Irish have been too thick to realise it..." Teribus: 29 Sep 05 - 10:28 PM

You're wide open, Teribus!

Have you noticed how slow the mudcat is recently?
Do you think that people have nothing better to do than search for your little gloatings?

If memory serves me right, you said something to the effect that you saw suspects squeal like pigs (or for 'their mammys', or something) during interrogation.
... but I can't be sure, neither; Tiocfaidh showed the post to me, and I think my response was 'I wonder how Bob Niarac is enjoying his new identity....', or something like that.

Welcome to the internet, Teribus, where all is not necessarily to your liking, and where the Jeffersonian Democratic System doesn't apply

There is an old saying which goes "It's all over bar the shouting"
That's as far as you lot are concerned, of course.

As for bringing people to book in the present time, however, there is a large corps of heavily armed individuals that have never even suggested handing in their weapons, and you save your long-winded posts to slam the RA?

Are those the actions of an intelligent man; a man who believes that he is the only one that posts anything of any sense to these boards?

(... don't suppose you ever said that, neither...)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:04 PM

Bob Niarac? Well, if your memory says so...

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:14 PM

Very subtle Wolfgang. I'm sure it was a slip of the keyboard on Tír Chonaill's part. Nairac.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

Bob is short for Robert. Do you understand that Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Dick Soye
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:21 PM

Wolfgang an bhfuil an cluiche celtic ar an telifís anoicht an bhfuil fois agut?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:30 PM

You didn't get it, Divis. But Den has explained it for you.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:34 PM

Sorry Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:35 PM

Wolfgang surely wouldn't have wasted 43 characters to correct an 'ia/ai' typo, would he?
I buggered up the fada over my 'i's a few times up there, and he never said a word?

We're not reduced to this, now, Wolfgang, are w`?
Is that why the Mudcat more entertaining when the 'Adams Family' are around?
Gives you your only opportunity to stand correcting, I could only imagine..

He probably doesn't know who Bob is...

(... bet you he knows now, though....)

Oh... entertaining isn't the word, Wolfgang....!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:22 PM

You're right lads.
All my life I've dreamed of a Scottish republic, where we can regain a bit of national pride.
Where we we can see our people as a complete nation and live in peace.
For centuries our young men have died in Engish wars and our once proud people now reduced to a dispirited benefits ridden underclass.

As you pointed out above some folk cant separate religion and politics Republicanism dosn't mean Catholisism, but this perceived link has been used extensivly in Scotland, which has now become a sectarian swamp, every small village in the west having a branch of the Orange Order stirring up hate.

And the terrible thing is they're full of young people, infected by the "old team"

Good luck to you in you're hopes for peace, and I'll add my hopes to see your Island united, never again to feel the shame of bigotry or second class citizenship in your own land.......Atheist Ake


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:07 PM

Tír Chonaill,

of course I knew it was a typo, but since you started the paragraph with the words "If memory serves me right" I just couldn't resist. Sorry about that.

I knew who Nairac was. One does not read more than two dozen books about Northern Ireland without meeting this name and the story behind it more than once. (Just BTW, the last book of those I did read was Before the dawn and I did like it.)

I'm truly curious by now what post by Teribus is in your memories and how the actual content of that post relates to your reported recollections. That's a kind of professional curiosity for I'm doing among other things research on memory illusions. When I first mentioned the search function it was to help whoever wanted to refind the remembered post. Meanwhile I got more curious and have done a search. Teribus has never used the word "squeal*" in any of his posts before this was brought up. In a second search I have looked for all posts by Teribus with the word 'interrogation' in them. Quite a few. But none of them had any more than a very superficial resemblance in my eyes to what was claimed.

My best guess at this moment is that you are a victim of what is called 'source confusion', namely that you attribute something that was said about Teribus to him having said that. But I may well be wrong and if I am I'd like to know.

Whatever you may think about Teribus' political opinions (mine are very different from his, in general, and also about Northern Ireland), he has a right to be attacked for what he has actually posted. With so many of you remembering that content it should be easy to put up.

Just imagine of being called 'child molester' by someone. And then that person says I seem to recollect having heard it from yourself or was it about you but I can't be bothered to check and perhaps it only was something similar...

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:21 PM

Indeed, Wolfgang. Or murderer, rapist, or hoarder of WMDs.

However you fall into your own hypothesis, here, because, the only thing you have proved is that you can't find the offending post either.

... and d'ya know wha'...? it's not that I can't find it, (cos I have seen it), it's just that I'm too busy, the cat is too slow, Teribus never uses one sentence when 4 paragraphs will do just as well, and it's Wednesday, for Christ's sake.

Wednesdays are for winding up Teribuses


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:42 PM

.... Or would that be 'Teribii'?
(... one 'i', perhaps???)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:49 PM

"Just imagine of being called 'child molester' by someone"

No need for the 'of', Wolfgang....

Do you want to give over about typos now, Wolfgang; cos bad grammar is worser.....?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:05 PM

Very good point to raise Akenaton. I was born a Catholic, but was not a very good one ! I did attend chapel until 1983 when Cathal Daly the then bishop in an attempt to please the British government had a statement read out that those who supported or were members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army had no place in the church. Well I walked out that day and never returned. Being born a Catholic in the North of Ireland wasn't my fault. Being turned into a Republican by repression wasn't my fault either. But I will die a Republican. For people to refer to me as a Catholic is funny. I consider a Catholic to be someone who attends mass and lives by it's strict code of rules.Not something I could do very well.But being born a Catholic was enough to get my crap knocked out more than once.Being turned into a Republican gave me a heart and a will to do something about it.Republicans are an anti-sectarian force in Irish politics.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:39 PM

Religion?
Spit!!!

It was never a religious war for us...

If the working class had have been encouraged to stick together from the word 'Go', religion would have been as much of an issue among us, as it would have been in any comparable 'Christian' society.

The religion card was more heavily played on the Protestant people, however, and just as fear triggers many frames of thought in this day and age, the 'Protestant People of Ulster' were brought up to fear us.
We, on the other hand, were brought up mostly just to be fairly suspicious of them.

Even now, as the PPoU complain about being 'left out in the cold' (whatever that is supossed to mean...), they cite the same reasons as the Nationalist Community have always done as to why they feel as if their rights are getting walked on.

As soon as the PPoU drop the first 'P' in their whatdyacallit, the sooner they will realise that it never was a cause worth killing for in the first place... (They never did much dying for it, in fairness....)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 08:00 PM

I'm Protestant and Republican and I don't feel it is at all a contradiction. It's unfortunate when people (PPoU :) ) feel the need to justify hate through religion, especially the Christian tradition. Hate masked with religious fervor is still that: hate.

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 08:39 PM

True points in above two posts. Loyalists often cry the chant For God And Ulster We will Die For Our land and Faith. I don't remember many that did. On the other hand our Volunteers who died on hunger strikes in 1974, 1976 and 1981 did so with conviction.All new PIRA Volunteers knew what was on offer a long prison sentence or death. I am yet to hear of one that walked away on hearing it. Why can't people accept our war is over ? If the above ex British soldier wasn't so filled with hate, there could be a debate here. But no it's always I will hound out the IRA in every post. That's a pity. But if this is to be your cause in life understand this, defence of the Provisional IRA and it's struggle is mine.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,The Plasterer
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:12 AM

I am Irish and lived for many years in a Mayfair Suite in London Teribus. I also had the odd drink with a few Squaddies and never had a problem with their views on Irish affairs. They knew I was a Republican and often joked about it.Why are you so serious and hate ridden towards Republicans ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,I'll get a Bull
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:18 AM

God help you TERIBUS, talking giberish again. In reference to Protestant Ulstermen, I am a protestant and can't stand the orange order, paisley, loyalist paramilitaries, so before you talk about protestants and catholics, think about what you say, some might think it is slightly racist.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:55 AM

To the various GUEST characters that have been created to create the impression of width of support, I call your attention to the following:

Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:34 AM

".......I have and bear no hatered of the Irish, Irish Republicans, Irish Nationalists, Irish Unionists, I even have quite a measure of respect for the Official IRA. My objections are reserved for a self-appointed group of murdering thugs, who, as was clearly seen in the referendum held throughout Ireland in 1998, had absolutely no mandate from the Irish people to act on their behalf. Who opportunistically jumped into an improving situation and succeeded in making it worse in order to further their own interests politically and financially. Who needlessly and indiscriminately killed and wounded thousands and then boast about it. Who terrorised then extorted from the very communities they were supposedly protecting. Believe me I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the PARAMILITARY GROUPS in Northern Ireland, and that I have often stated."

Now what part of that is unclear to you? Are Catholics mentioned? No. Are Prtotestants mentioned? No. Republicans and Unionists are quite clearly, and in a little english comprehension test for you can you tell in what context they are referred to? I'll even make it easier for you and make it multi-choice:

A. The group for whom I have stated that I have and bear no hatred for.

OR

B. The group for whom I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for.

On rascism from DIVI on the other hand we have -

Divis Sweeney
BS: Are we anti-Irish? (452* d)
RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
14 Sep 05

________________________________________

I'm anti-British...Should we again define what British means? Haha!!!

E

He then follows later in another post about what his rather weak definition of British is - something about being in the service of the crown.

Of course that is not really the case, like the good Fr. Alex Reid in his outburst about Nazi's, Divi just let the mask slip momentarily.

A bare-faced liar and a dissembler - a Provisional.

Oh and DIVI if you want a reality check:
- Go back through the thread the Sutton Stats tell you how many your side killed (around 58%), doesn't show the thousands more that were injured and scarred for life.
- Go back and find out what percentage of the people who live in the North want to remain within the UK (around 60%)
- Go to the web and find out how many people in the whole of Ireland who in 1998 told your organisation of choice that they had absolutely no mandate from them to pursue political aims through violence (around 87%), well done it only took the PIRA 8 years to listen to the people of Ireland, the CIRA, RIRA haven't heard them yet. The Loyalist paramilitaries apear to be about to listen and act - I certainly hope so, it would not be before time - about thirty bloody years.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:57 AM

The main conclusion for northern nationalists arising from the recent debate sparked by Fr Reids Nazi/unionists comparsion is unionists denial about their role and responsibility for creating the conditions which lead to almost 30 years of war.

Unionist politicians are in denial about the decades of injustice they inflicted on the nationalist people of the six counties.

There was not a single unionist at a politicial, religious or business level prepared to accept their part in this conflict which caused huge loss of life and left a generation of people scarred. Unionists do not have a case to answer when their actions are compared to the magnitude of the holocaust.

But, Unionists must deal with the reality that their Orange one-party state generated and perpetuated racist and sectarian attitudes similar to the type of hatred and prejudice that led to the Holocaust.

Their state systematically discriminated against an entire community simply because that community`s nationalist identity was different and could be presented as a threat.

It is more accurate to compare what unionist leaders did here with what whites did in South Africa. The unionist state was every bit as immoral as as the state set up by the whites. Both relied on a system of apartheid.
In the 1950s the South African parliament introduced laws to deprieve blacks and coloureds of political and economic power. In the north of Ireland, the unionists relied on the Special Powers Act, a system of political and economic privelege for unionists and Protestants which ghettoised and rendered nationalists powerless.
Underpinning both states was a supremacist ideology, which treated blacks in South Africa and Catholic/Nationalists here as less than human beings with inalienable rights.

Lord Brookeborough prime minister from 1943-63 set the standard. He refused to employ Catholics and publicly encouraged other employers to follow his example.
He achieved unionists stated aim of creating `a protestant state for a Protestant people`.

The government was unionist and Protestant, the judiciary, unionist and Protestant, the civil service unionist and Protestant, the police unionist and Protestant,. The employment practices of the state`s flagship industries, Harland and Wolfe,Shorts, Sirocco, Mackies, rewarded generations of loyal citizens with employment, while discriminating against Catholics.

The first unionist unionist government very quickly abolished PR for elections and replaced it with a first past-the-post system.
Unionist majority resulted. Unionist politicians gerrymandered Stormont and local government constituencies, turning unionist political minorities into political majorities.

To vote you had to be a householder or own a business. Unionists allocated houses and denied them to Catholics. Many unionist busines people had more than one vote.

The umbrella organisation that held it all together was the anti-Catholic Orange Order supported by the Unionist party, the RUC and the `B`Specials.
The ethos of the state was British and Orange, all things Irish were illegal, discriminated against or ignored. Display of the Irish tri-colour led to arrest. The Irish language was not recognised. Parents had difficulty or were refused to register their child`s name in Irish. Gaelic games were not catered for, almost every public Park provied for all sports with the excepition of our native games.

All public Parks had their childrens play areas closed on Sundays, fundamental Protestants seen to that.

Thus the Catholic/Nationalist population were regarded as mere second class citizens.
Such bigotry also found a home among educated middle-class unionists.
Unionist politicial leaders have to recognise their part in creating the circumstances that led to this conflict, unless they do they will not find their role in helping to resolve it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:14 AM

Teribus. This is not my post. Check with Joe this was from Epona. And signed in her ususal E. I am sure she will confirm this. The site mixed a few of our posts up !
apologise in your own time. Oh sorry you don't do that do you ?
Dear oh dear you don't like the the Provo's do you !
Ah such a pity, really annoys us to know that.
Above post from GUEST in one of the best I have read here in a while.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

It's true, that is definitely my post...Anything with the "E" is me. And, I would like to point out, if you had followed the thread that you quoted me from instead of just pulling out quotes to suite your ends, you would realize that we were defining what British vs. English/Scottish/Welsh meant. In that forum we defining British as having two definitions, and the one that I use was: "An IMPERIALIST that holds on to the remaining shreds of the 'Empire'."

So, do I hate the English/Scottish/Welsh? No. In fact, it seems silly to even suggest it if you had been around here to get to know me! But, I have heard that you took a break from the cat during a, ummm, not so "pictureaque" moment for your army. I choose, though, to dislike individuals (not blindly hating entire groups of people). Does that sum up the whole post situation? I hope so. If you need more clarification on that thread, please feel free to read the whole thing. I know, though, that it is rather long. Sorry I couldn't provide you with ammunition on Divis because it seems you're in rather desperate need...maybe if you ask nicely he'll take it easy on you?! :) Good luck with that!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:47 AM

Forgive my spelling errors...on the run and won't be back until late! Had to contribute at least once today though!!!! :)

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:53 AM

Hey Divi,

"Teribus. This is not my post. Check with Joe this was from Epona. And signed in her ususal E. I am sure she will confirm this."

Well I'm sure she/you/Guest/Guest Fiolaris/whoever will, as soon as you get round to it.

On the above quote from your mail - You're not trying to tell me and anyone else reading this thread that you object to somebody attributing statements to you that you did not in fact make!!!!

Now you'd never do that would you. Divi you are a proven bare-faced liar and a dissembler - the typical Provisional spokesperson.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM

Terminal How can you call me all these names, the hurt you bring to my heart by name calling leaves me emotionally wrecked. Would you like to boast to other soldiers that your war with the Provo's has taken a new step ? That you will ensure the bastards can't sleep at night? Terminal you are really wearing me down, looks like your victory. So here I stand in sack cloth and ashes crying out the words SORRY SORRY to you and your comrades I was nothing better than an animal. Would you like this signed ? Right now wake up the dream is over.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:39 AM

Oh sure Teribus you cry "I am not supporting loyalists" a poor excuse. Heard it before from you over there. Makes no difference your system is what it is and it is against Catholics period. And equal rights for everyone ? has to be a joke. I don't seem to read one report about Northern Ireland that says anything different. Prove it otherwise. You have a sectarian jungle and the DUP promotes it along with others loyalist groups. Give us a break in the US. Push come to shove you would be right there with the loyalist paramilitaries, the RUC now the PSNI, the British government and the dirty tricks brigade. Give me a break. Ethinic cleansing is what you promote Teribus, Great excuses you come up with too. I do believe that Protestant loyalists did much more that the IRA, which is not on record so drop the excuses. And what's your hang up about Balham London ? I have a friend who lives there. By all accounts it's a swell place.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 11:25 AM

I see you're still banging your gums y' lyin' Git.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 01:51 PM

Terminal what a way to talk about a group of guys who just lead normal lives like yourself. How could anyone hate the Provo's ? Your comrades gave me a bit of a hard time on the odd occasion, but I am not giving you it in the ear.Come on the 90 minutes are up. Do you want it to run into extra time ? Say your sorry about all you said about the Provisional IRA and I will accept it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:42 PM

You won't get an answer divis. See he didn't say sorry either for saying Eponas post was yours. I am still awaiting an explanation and Clarity on his remarks about Balham. And that's here in England ! So doubt he will be in a hurry to send an answer to Ireland. Seems a funny like of guy ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Guest Clint
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:58 PM

Yes Bill elighten us about your Balham remark or are you going to ignore this too ? gain some credibility, your getting the stuffing knocked out of you by replying to those above. Answer please on Balham remark.Will keep asking.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:27 PM

In todays Irish News it is reported 6 Special Branch Officers have been implicated by Police Ombudsman Nuala O`Loan in the cover-up of more than a dozen UVF murders.

The six Officers failed to act on evidence that linked senior UVF informer Mark Haddock, former RUC detective Johnston Brown also claimed that Special Branch prevented police charging Haddock with the murder of Sharon McKenna in 1993.

Johnston Brown was hounded out of the RUC for pursuing loyalist murderers, Brown said that Special Branch allowed Haddock to continue on his murder rampage, he added " if they allow this to happen, who else did they allow to die".
Brown has just published a book on his time in the RUC, this is an eye opener on the vast scale of collusion that went on in the Special Branch with their Loyalist murder machine.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Soldier Boy
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

I have Googled Johnston Brown RUC and that man`s book will really blow the lid of the RUC and their Special Branch, all of the different leads are a story waiting to be told.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:44 PM

Ard,

It's been that way since before and after the McMahon murders. What bothers me is how the big shots in London did nothing about it or if they were not aware of the real situation then they have not been doing their job. You cannot govern a place unless you keep an eye on the place. I am sure they have known about these type of things all along but as usual did nothing about them, no bloody wonder the early protest marches were necessary.
Of course these latest stories will never make it to the front pages the way the McCartney murder did. But that's to be expected.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:20 PM

Have you noticed the Terminal silence ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:53 PM

GUEST/Divi/Epona 27 Oct 05 - 02:42 PM

Do the super search as directed and explained by Wolfgang and you will find that I have only ever mentioned Balham in my posts to state that I had not got the vaguest clue as to its location.

Too technical for you??

Another classic example of what Wolfgang refers to as - "you are a victim of what is called 'source confusion', namely that you attribute something that was said about Teribus to him having said that."

That comes about because you are brainwashed and braindead to any sensible discussion that doesn't conform to your preconceived notions and beliefs. Very easy to understand because you are a pack of Lying Gits, you've got so used to it that it's a natural reflex, you couldn't tell the truth even if your rather pathetic lives depended on it.

Oh by the bye, A the 1st Ake, loved your post:
- I could feel the mists of history rolling back to reveal 'Bonny Scotland' as it once was.
- I could hear the bagpipes playing in the distance, swelling to the ultimate climax as the glories of A the 1st Ake's Scotland came into being

Abso-fuckin'-lutely hilarious

Teribus - a Scot and a Catholic

PS: One other exercise Divi revisit the statistics that Wolgang provided and contemplate that if your lot hadn't bothered how many more innocent Irish lives would have been saved and how better off the place would have been. Before 1969 how many observation towers were there? I can't remember there being any.

"You can boast of what you've done
But you're naught but murderin' scum
And you're actions prove it clearer every day."


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 08:29 PM

Oh dear Terminal you really are getting cross. I thought my days of giving your type the run around were long over. Listen I don't give a toss about that Balham remark,I don't understand it or want to. It's got nothing to do with me. And can you not do better than keep calling Wolfgang in to your lost arguments ? Do you think I have nothing better to do than go through your posts ? What I have read and seen on this thread says enough ! Terminal, you keep making remarks about me coming in as a guest to answer you, why would I want to do this ? If I have something worth saying I will put my name to it.So it's clear you are not going to bestowe professional courtesy on me as I would you.Now Terminal, calling me murderin' scum
is not very nice either.I am starting to think that you must think I was some form of a murdering terrorist ? No Terminal that's wrong. I never wore the Queens uniform.Now what about starting off again on a new footing and talk about the most successful guerilla army in the world. Now there's a subject that would interest me. I would love a history chat with you on that one !.Did you never feel a teenie weenie bit jealous of their ability to strike with such ease and accuracy ? Ah well your Generals Ford and Tuzo did. It's funny Terminal, we really are just both sides of the same coin I feel. We will both tell our grandchildren stories. But Terminal who will be telling the truth ? When in the North of Ireland did you ever run away Terminal, I didn't. Always good to hear from you. See I am really a very pleasant fellow when you get to know me.Please don't say we can't be friends.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:53 PM

According to Malcolm Sutton:

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055
TOTAL 3523

The figures do not lie although we all know Divi does.

Now, I know that it is not as simple as this, but what the hell, just for arguements sake:

If I and my lot had not been in Northern Ireland 363 more people would be alive.

If the Loyalist Paramilitaries had not been around 1020 more people would be alive

But If Divi and his pals of whom he is so inordinately proud had not been around 2055 more people would be alive.

In fact it would have been a damn sight more than that as we would have considerably reduced the 'loyalist' tally.

DIVI - That is a FACT

Here are a few more:

DIVI quote, "If I have something worth saying I will put my name to it."

DIVI you are a liar I have proved it on this thread, you cannot wriggle out of that. Please remember that in anything you post on this forum in the future that is going to come back at you - You are a proven Liar.

DIVI quote, "..it's clear you are not going to bestowe professional courtesy on me as I would you." Now come along DIVI, when have you ever "bestowed any professional courtesy" towards me - Never.

Another DIVI quote, "Now Terminal, calling me murderin' scum
is not very nice either."

Unfortunately DIVI, ould son, the statistics provided by Malcolm Sutton seem to bear out my opinion of you and the organisation you seem to have chosen to defend - 2055 lives out of a total of 3525, and that does not take into account those injured and maimed for life. Things would have been a damn sight better had you stayed away by a factor of 60% - FACT.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." offered/sought ceasefire after ceasefire.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." has, thankfully and eventually, abandoned its weapons.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." Never had any mandate from the people of Ireland to murder 2055 of its citizens.

At present there are 15,500 British Troops stationed in the North of Ireland, there are 8,500 British Troops stationed in Iraq.

DIVI quote, "Did you never feel a teenie weenie bit jealous of their ability to strike with such ease and accuracy ?"

Do you mean like when the much vaunted PIRA planted the 24 bombs in Belfast City Centre, timed to go off within 2 hours, then came out with the statement that they did not target civilians. The loss of life on that day came to 5 people, any idea who that was down to DIVI? I'll tell you, the RUC, the British Forces, and members of Northern Ireland's Emergency Services. It certainly had fuck all to do with the Provisional IRA, who were hoping for a far larger score.

DIVI when it comes to telling the truth to our grand-children I will be able state with clear and verifiable conviction that I was there to save life. It will be clearly demonstrable that you, and the organisation that you were a proud member of, were there to take it - to the extent of 2055 lives to be exact.

DIVI quote, "When in the North of Ireland did you ever run away Terminal, I didn't."

Oh DIVI, the PIRA always ran, normally after killing innocent civilians. The preferred method of the PIRA being by indiscriminate bomb. The number of times the PIRA did hang around to fight they came off decidedly second best. And while boasting of your war, the PIRA trotted off to Brussels to complain about a "Shoot-to-kill" policy - what policy did your side employ, no need to answer DIVI the 2055 versus 363 over the period speaks volumes.

I dare say that you are very pleasant, personable, entertaining and likeable in the normal course of things. But please do not try to justify 2055 lives lost directly at the hands of the organisation you so vehmently defend and expect me to agree with your point of view, because, put very smply, I won't. You and your fellow volunteers murdered 2055 of your own countrymen, don't ever boast about that in my company and try to tell me what the PIRA did and what they achieved by THEIR sacrifice. I am all for the way Stan Rogers told it in House of Orange what ever you wanted was there for the taking without the loss of 3525 lives.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:03 PM

Teribus,

Do you know the breakdown of the 2055 lives that you've quoted as being taken by the PIRA? Were they civilian? British troops, RUC, political targets? It's an honest question and I would be very interested to know. Thanks.

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:11 PM

And let me amend my above statement slightly...Of the 2055 deaths attributed to "Republican paramilitaries", how many of those were at the hands of PIRA? That would be another good answer to have. Looking forward to hearing the numbers in the morning, Teri!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:21 PM

Epona, the Sutton Statistics are as available to you as they are to me. Wolfgang has provided the link, you do not need me to furnish the information you require. Do it yourself


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:15 AM

Still Teribus you spray out the same old statistics. But you still dodge answering the question put to you by myself and I note many other people regarding your remark about the BUILDERS YARD IN BALHAM. Teribus I clearly remember you saying it. Can't remember the thread. You were going on about Scotchmen to Ralph. I pm'd Ralph but he is no longer a member. Look I am not a Republican, Nationalist or IRA man, I am Englisg and live in Clapton Hackney. So before you go on and on as you do will you please explain why you wish to avoid this point


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:39 AM

My sincere apologies Guest Clint for my delay in clarifying your point relating to the builders yard in Balham.

I have made NO remark about, or reference to, a builders yard in Balham, apart from having previously stated that I did:

A. Not know where Balham was.

AND

B. Had no knowledge of any 'builders yard' in Balham.

I also have not got a clue who 'Ralph' is.

I do hope that that answers any questions you have relating to the matter. If not please follow the directions given by Wolfgang and conduct a super search of my posts inputing 'builders yard Balham'

Please revert with result of your research, if however, you do not, I will take it that, apart from what I have stated above, you have found no reference to me ever having mentioned Balham, or a builders yard in Balham in any other post. In which case your question will have been fully answered.

Failing that a thread could be started either on:
- Balham, or
- On things people on this forum were supposed to have said when in actual fact they didn't.

Epona,

To answer your question, in my mail the following statistics were given (Source Malcolm Sutton):

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055
TOTAL 3523

Further down the post I refer to - "Divi and his pals", and mention the 2055 figure. I think it would be perfectly clear to anybody that "Divi and his pals" relates to Republican Paramilitaries, I've never heard the man argue any other cause. Nice attempt to nit-pick but it doesn't alter the thrust of the arguement, or the veracity of my contention in the slightest.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:43 AM

Johnston Brown had to have his book published in the Dublin by Gill and MacMillan, no publisher in the north of Ireland would chance having the British Government send their vultures in to confiscate the evidence.

In the Dail yesterday Pat Rabbitte TD named Mark Haddock and John Bond as the men responsible for Raymond McCord Junior`s murder.

McCord`s father welcomed TD Rabbitte`s exposure of the two UVF killers, he said," This is only the beginning. The UVF has been controlled by the Special Branch from the 1970s, the Police knew about hundreds of murders before any triggers were pulled".

A Police Ombudsman report on the murder of Raymond McCord Junior is to be published next month. It is expected to recommend prosuctions against six Special Branch Officers who ran UVF members in north and west Belfast.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:55 AM

Teribus At least your reply to me was reasonably civil.You have no idea what it was like to grow up in the North throughout the 1960's. I was young and could not understand the names I was being called or why my family were being treated as second class.We saw Civil Rights being demanded in America and drew a parallel. Young people took to the streets and demanded equality. They were battered of the streets. Because Nationalists had found their voice they became trouble makers. From the top level of North of Ireland government it was decided to put down the desired wish of Nationalists to be treated as equal.As to Rodgers remark in that Orange Hall, my ass would we have got it, Christ they are still trying to put us down today.The Civil Rights movement were hammered into the ground by the police as your government stood by, example Burntollet Bridge 1968. Catholics were being burned out of their homes, example Bombay street. Even the IRA in Dublin were reluctant to act. So in 1969 the people in the North found it's own defence, The Provisional IRA. I fully accept your dislike of them, but Teribus just for a moment imagine that you were knocking about in 1940 and the Germans landed on your street and battered the crap out of you. If you said to me you would stand back and not get involved, I would call you that word you set at my door in very post LIAR.Do you give Wolfgang a hard time over those killed in the blitz ? Why not ? His war like my own is over.You refer to the Continuity IRA. I have a number of times made it clear I have no support for them. I support my party leadership in Sinn Fein to get Irish re-unification by peaceful means.Do you want me to throw up all the illegal actions of the British Army whilst in my country ? Why do you keep going down this road ? The leadership on more than one occasion has expressed regret at the loss of life of non-combatants, has the British Army ? Teribus I did not get the chance to fill in a tick box when I was born as to which faith I would like.I was born a Catholic and through the actions against of a uniionist government became a Republican.Again I repeat all loss of life is regrettable, but I do not and will not ever say our armed struggle was wrong. Regarding your remark about bestowment of professional courtesy, I never underestimated the British Army.Regarding troop numbers here they never come out of their barracks, it's just another overseas posting.I remain proud of all our Volunteers and the sacrifice they made either by their life of the time spent in prison.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:07 AM

Soon off for another busy day...Would love to take you up on your offer, Teri, and "do it" myself, and maybe if I can get some peace this weekend I will do some research on my own. But, with such a vast amount of knowledge available through my fellow mudcatters, maybe I won't have to! :)

Teri has been extraordinarily kind to use some figures Wolfgang provided, one of the figures being 2055 deaths in the North attributed to "Republican paramilitaries." And, if anyone can help me with my questions, I would be very thankful.

1. What groups make up the "Republican paramilitaries"?
2. Assuming that the PIRA is one of those, how many deaths are they held accountable for out of the 2055?
3. Of those deaths attributed to the PIRA, how many were:
    a. loyalist paramilitaries
    b. British troops
    c. RUC
    d. political targets
    e. civilians

Any help or answers would be really appreciated...and hopefully I'll be able to check into this myself tomorrow!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM

I seem to keep attracting this evil virus on this computer, what on earth is it?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

It's called flamenco ted, We all get it from time to time.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:00 PM

Dear Teribus
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, clearly it wasn't you. There is no doubt about that.Please accept my apology. I went through the Threads but could not find it, your word is enough for me.So sorry to see the above back here, F.T. truely is a virus.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:20 PM

Teribus you sure do bounce around alot don't you? I was born and raised in Ulster. So, don't get your knickers in a twist. No one says the states don't have problems. Just as I imagine S. Africa still does. But, Teribus they are dealing with their problems. As is N. Ireland now. You have a problem with that? One time you say your against the likes of Rev. Ian and loyalists next your defending their apartheid and pogrom. I seem to think you must have been hand picked for a guest book propaganda mill. You remind me of the Oakland, California loyalist wannabe who moved to Derry a year or so ago. He too rambled on like yourself. I say again, peace is at hand Teribus. Whether you or even the old blowhards along with you here likes it or not. Peace is coming. And along with it equality for all. Not just Catholics, but for everyone. I know it's hard for you and the bigots to accept, but it will happen just the same. You have a problem with peace Teribus? Do you have a problem with equality? Or do you join the others here and want the status quo to remain? Do you have an opinion on anything, or do you have to wait for Wolfgang to feed you his latest propaganda? Till him to review his own history before looking into others.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

I remember in my time in Ulster the I.R.A. shot a horse in the ass. The story was in the papers. Made a bigger deal out of it than if it had been a human.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:48 PM

Ard Great post. If you get more on this please keep us informed. Also anything on collusion we don't tend to hear much about it here in Canada. Best wishes Tommy


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:58 PM

Tommy just Google Johnston Brown RUC for futher reading.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:46 PM

Thanks ard mhacha


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM

Oh, Gloria...I remember hearing about that. Poor horse.

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:01 PM

Ard got a lot of stuff there thanks. Now time to educate Canada !Best wishes Tommy.Time to brush up !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:13 PM

Calling Teribus, Calling Teribus


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

Good luck Tommy!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:45 AM

Tommy.

Are you from Greenwood street ???????.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:05 AM

No Jimmy, Clara Street.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Kieran Mc Conville
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:17 AM

Teribus,how dare you say things against America in the light of loyalist paramilitaries running your streets in Bolton and a British government that is standing by and doing nothing about it! That's not the style here in America. That's the best you can offer your children and their future. More racism, more hatred, more of how much better we are over someone else because we have suffered more. Get real with this. We know who suffered greatly and who has made the step towards peace and it is NOT Unionists. The victimization of Catholics was not a fantasy, it was a reality and live up to what you, your government, and your groups like the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys did to maintain the status quo. Time and time again it's collusion between paramilitaries, the police and the army and more people dead and more killed. Some country you have to boast about here and some courage you have to tell the rest of the world anything. This for God, country and king is not going to cut it anymore. Then you have the gall to sit around and see who killed more than the other like this is come old English battle where the largest numbers who lives wins. Really sad, really sad. Oh so we are way behind you. Sure just say the wrong word to minority or break a hate crime here in the US and see what comes your way by the means of the law. You get jail. We do not have Ian P's in political office chanting some anti-Catholic hate that belongs back in the 1600's. You do. Say you belong to hate group and you might just as well as not plan on getting a job. If we are so behind the ball, then why did you see all the Blacks being helped in the South after the hurricanes? I did not see anyone shooting them. It was tough but aid came and its still pouring in down there. We are Americans and its time to help your neighbor. Debate anytime. Just do not give me we do not understand nonsense, I know what your visiting army did in Ireland, and you come here to say your proud about it ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Laurence Menary
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:35 AM

Loyalist's Surrender!!!!! Peace is on the way. Thank God! Flags and murals removed in Belfast yesterday as the LVF prepares to go out of business FLAGS have been taken down and murals painted over in Belfast ahead of the anticipated disbandment of the Loyalist Volunteer Force terrorist group. LVF trappings were removed from one of its strongholds in the Ballysillan district of north Belfast yesterday. Negotiators trying to end a violent feud between the LVF and rival terrorists said it was part of a strategy to wind up the group before the end of the year. Two dates for making a formal announcement have been discussed - Remembrance Sunday and the anniversary of the murder of its former leader, Billy "King Rat" Wright's murder. "Total disbandment has been on the cards since last Christmas," a source close to the LVF said. "But if you get one big step the hawks would immediately dive in and spoil it. That's why it's being done gingerly, with moves like the flags and murals coming down." Even so, many will be sceptical of any declaration by an organisation steeped in murder and drugs. To this end, secret discussions involving a number of clergymen have continued, but before it can announce its men have been stood down, a truce with the larger Ulster Volunteer Force is still to be brokered. The UVF has murdered four men since the latest shooting war with its sworn enemies erupted on the streets of Belfast in July. Tensions between the two loyalist factions have festered since Wright formed the new organisation after being thrown out of the UVF in 1996. A year later, on December 27, Wright t was assassinated by republicans inside the Maze jail. Allegations that prison staff colluded with the killers are to be studied when a public inquiry into his murder gets underway next spring. Mediators attempting to end the latest power struggle among loyalists are believed to have made significant progress. Despite UVF pledges to wipe out the splinter organisation, no one has been killed for two months. During that period, the LVF is understood to have discussed making a major response to the IRA's September 26 declaration that its armed struggle was over. The British government has also been approached about financing advice centres and post-conflict structures if the LVF's army council sells disbandment to the rank and file. "An awful lot of hard and sensitive work has gone on in the background," one adviser said. Pastor Kenny McClinton, who has worked as an LVF intermediary in the past, refused to comment on any initiatives. "If there was anything going on, it would be much too sensitive for me to talk about," he said. "However, I would applaud any move towards a resolution of the conflict within loyalism and the wider community." So Teribus what will you do now ? these were the guys you depended on to kill the Provo's between drugs deals . Are the Provo's going to be allowed to walk the streets ? These were the guys the British army and N.I. police force colluded with.Also what do you think about the fact that today the homes of 16 police officers were raided and four police stations too ! The case against them is corruption.Can this be the same force you so lovong admire ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 01:21 PM

Report in Thursdays Belfast Newsletter .September 17, 2005

Love Ulster Organise Rally
According to William Frazer leader of the group F.A.I.R. Love Ulster have 'penciled' in October 29th for a march from the Shankill Road to Belfast City centre for what the organisers claim will be a 'peaceful protest'. Victims' groups, Orangemen, loyalist bands and many others from across Northern Ireland will be called to the streets of Belfast to show the "the deep feelings of Protestant, unionist and loyalist people at this time". Mr. Frazer and local Orange Grand Master Dawson Bailey said according to reports coming in to them this is set to be one of the largest rallies Belfast City City has seen in years. It will remember all those brave Ulstermen and members of the British Army that gave their lives here during the troubles.Numbers in excess of 60,000 are expected. It will show unity of the Ulster people. Also, a special edition of the Ulster campaign newspaper is also being prepared by the Shankill Mirror.

Well now folks it is now 6.15pm on Saturday the 29th of October and The Love Ulster rally is over.Less than 1,800 turned up to remember the dead Ulstermen and British Army personal that died here during the troubles.Most of those in attendance were in band uniforms.They also wanted to show unity of all Protestants in Ulster.
Dear oh dear oh dear. Looks like they have been forgotten, not remembered ! We see figures on this site all the time, what about these figures ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:21 AM

Epona,
Wolfgang obtained his data from Sutton's Index

Some years ago similar figures were posted from Amnesty International.

Are you shocked at the number of killings attributable to Republican paramilitaries? Does it change your outlook at all?

You may not be able to get a further breakdown of the Republican groups, But PIRA is far and away the biggest of them. Omagh is perhaps the only large scale massacre committed by a break away group.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:43 AM

Epona,

Sutton table
Most questions can be answered taking that table as a start. But it took me a while to find out how the cross tabulations work.

in short:
(P)IRA (without DAAD) according to that table is responsible for 1706 of the 2055 for all republican paramilitaries together.
Next deadly organisation is UVF, 426, BTW, then British Army, 297)
Next deadly organisation on the Republican side is the INLA (113).

The 1706 dead for which the IRA is responsible in Suttons table (status summary by organisation crosstabulation) can be split up like this:
1011 British security (285 RUC and ex-RUC; 455 British Army; 222 UDR or ex-UDR; the rest being smaller number of (ex)-Prison officers, Royal navy; territorial army, British police etc)
516 Civilian
   7 Irish security
32 Loyalist Paramilitaries
140 Republican Paramilitaries

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:22 PM

What is the breakdown for deaths in England, Scotland and Wales during the Blitz ? I know the Germans killed 1,890 in Belfast alone.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:25 PM

Wolfgang, just realised the Germans killed more in the North of Ireland than the Provo's !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Wolfgang, I have said sorry several times on this site for the loss of life during the armed struggle and it wasn't accepted. Seeing you have all our data and I have yours, why not have a try yourself to see do people accept it from you. I will let you know if I accept it when you post.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:51 PM

Oh Keith has appeared ! Got your big spoon to try and stir the pot ? I have read your recent comments on Ireland.Any chance of somthing new in your posts ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:40 PM

Give me a break Tommy please.
Epona's very reasonable question had been overlooked, so I responded.
Problem?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

Hello! Thanks for the follow-up to my question. I checked out the Sutton table but was unable to find reference to how many civilians were killed by the provos. Will go back on tonight and scour it thoroughly. I do like the Cain site...visit it frequently and very surprised I'd never seen the table before! I must say that I'm surprised the numbers attributed to the provos aren't higher. They weren't given the title of the most successful guerilla army ever for nothing. Thanks again for the link! I'll try to check back in after doing some more research! :)

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:21 PM

Hope you get your answer to your question E. And hope you don't have to wait as long as I have to the figures I require.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 03:20 AM

Epona,
If you count success by the numbers of people slaughtered, I suppose some of the Islamic terror groups deserve that honour.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ahmed Byrne
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 03:47 AM

Well, you can read the British Army and the Loyalist Paramilitaries as one organisation, as far as I'm concerned, like the boys who didn't bother to take off their uniforms before they killed Fran O'Toole and the Miami Showband.

Maybe Teribus could give us a little insight into collusion (a practice that he agrees with) as it appeared to him

I salute the IRA, Teribus!

They performed a necessary function in my growing up. They were the only voice the Nationalist had that would be listened to eventually, and as it has been proved here that the average Brit is anti-Irish, and has been since time immemorial, you would have thought that that kind of attitude would have gone a long way in explaining the woes the English people have suffered because of the intransigence of their leaders.

Do you know what the trouble with 'Brits' are?
They confuse their rascism and superiority complexes for self-righteousness.
And like America, who or what gave you the right to act as guardian of the World's morals.
Orther people don't always see things they way you lot do.
It doesn't make you right, however.

Interesting that Teribus should think that England have been trying to get rid of Ireland for 130 years or so, only that the Irish were too 'thick' to get their respective arses in order to rise to the occasion.

That is the trouble with revisionist thinking.

People who bomb shopping centers, commit 'atrocities' in the name of a cause, would much prefer to discuss that Cause, than to kill for it. After all, volunteers are prepared to lay down their life if necessary in the furtherance of that Cause
Revisionist thinking would have all Irish people being born with a gun in their hands. Not so.

Musical instruments and scholarly tomes, yes.

Freedom fighters are fighting for some form of freedom, in the normal scheme of things, and by definition against some form of tyranny.

Stop trying to be the guardian, Teribus. Because the guardians have been proven to be worse scum than the people they have fired that epithet at.

You reap what you sow, eh?

Are there any Christians around here that can explain the philosophy of that statement to you, Teribus?
'Karma' is another good one.

The attitude of the British Establishment has never taken into account the repercussions on it's citizens. They are the present day 'cannon fodder', and are always good for scoring political points with.

No more no less.

Wise up to your leaders, folks.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:25 AM

Ahmed,
You wrote "and as it has been proved here that the average Brit is anti-Irish"

It has not been proved, here or anwhere else, and in my experience it is not true.

I do accept that the average Brit is anti IRA.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:45 AM

Keith, Epona did not bring the figures into the Equation in this thread it was Wolfgang, and true to form it gave you and Teribus the opportunity to attempt to get the boot into the Provisionals. Regarding your remark,success by the numbers of people slaughtered. Sorry but that's not worth an answer.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:53 AM

I think this goes back to the two definitions of "British" that we had that other long thread about, Keith. That REALLY, REALLY long thread. Did I mention how long it was?! No interest in revisiting that anytime in the near future as I've got enough headaches to deal with at the moment :)

Keith, as far as judging success by numbers of fatal casualties, I've actually never thought about considering that. To be honest, I'm sure you were very much trained like I was because our armies are so similar that a mission's success is determined by several things, but, for me and my troops one of those things has never been body count. So, as far as the PIRA having the label as being "the most successful," it has more to do with the lifespan of the organization, its adaptability, recruitment, and things of that nature that kept it running since 1969. Though, yes, I do understand some missions did center around people-targets vs. physical targets, and that those particular missions were deemed successful if their purpose was completed. I suppose that after hearing from several historians and instructors of military history that the IRA was the most successful guerilla in history, I did assume (which I know I should never do) that there would have been more deaths attributed to them.

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM

should say "guerilla army" and not just "guerilla". Or maybe it should just say "gorilla"? :) Running on very little sleep and off to a very, very early meeting. Enjoy your day!

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 05:12 AM

I never thought that I would find myself agreeing with any of the opinions expressed by Keith, but I do in this case.

Ahmed, you state as fact that the average Brit is anti Irish, then go on to point out that not every Irishman is born with a gun in his hand.

Can you really not see the inconsistency of those two statements?

You are making a wild, and unprovable generalisation about one side, and refuting a similar generalisation about the other.

You have no real knowledge or evidence to support your anti Irish claim, and equally there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the Irish hate Brits.

It is far more likely that the hatred exists in the extremist minority in both communities, and the rest just want all this enmity to go away.

It is this sort of comment that prevents the dialogue that would make that happen. The past is past, and it is the future that should exercise the minds of both sides, but this cannot happen until we stop pointing out the evil in one another, and start talking about what we can do together now.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 07:22 AM

Sweeney,
Re figures, on 28th Oct Epona wrote "Teri has been extraordinarily kind to use some figures Wolfgang provided, one of the figures being 2055 deaths in the North attributed to "Republican paramilitaries." And, if anyone can help me with my questions, I would be very thankful. "

I was the first to reply, after thread had expired.

Re success and killing, yesterday Epona wrote " I must say that I'm surprised the numbers attributed to the provos aren't higher. They weren't given the title of the most successful guerilla army ever for nothing"


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 07:23 AM

On subject of figures....
300


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 08:16 AM

I think she meant according to whats said on this site the toll wasn't higher ! What's the 300 ? Is that the answer to my unanswered questioned regarding the Blitz ?


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 11:23 AM

I think its fair to say that his Priest's chest is well and truely cleared by now. Can you all let this one drop. For the last four weeks this poor priest hasn't even been mentioned ! Just a group of anti Irish looking to start a fight as far as I can see.
Jimmy McKeown


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM

" Just a group of anti Irish looking to start a fight as far as I can see."

Funny how people see things different.

I see no anti Irish at all.
Myself, Flamenco Ted and Terribus anti IRA

and on the other side

Divis Sweeney
Tiocfaid
Den
Epona
Ahmed Byrne
Tommy McGarrel
kieran McConville
Lawrence Menary
Jimmy C
Ard Mhacha
Fiolaris
Clint
Tir Chonail
Akeneaton
Wee Little Drummer
and numerous nameless Guests


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM

Christ, looks like I'm on the winning side! :)

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 01:28 PM

In all honesty, joking aside, I wish it wasn't about "them vs us". The truth is such: the North is embracing peace. I realize that there are some obvious holdouts (i.e. loyalists) but the struggle has moved to a different level. I am proud to be a Republican, but even more so, I'm proud to be Irish and that's what it comes down to. I don't feel the desire to strengthen my cultural pride by attacking others'. I like the uniqueness that each one of us has (and some of us are definitely more unique than others!)   Eventually, I hope that all Irish men and women will rediscover the love of their culture, language, and history instead of some seeing themselves as purely the defenders of "Ulster" and living under the control of a government that attempted to strip them off so much of their identity and heritage.

E


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 01:57 PM

Wouldn't call myself anti Irish Keith. Thats not great company your keeping, thanks be to god my name appears in the lower list !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 09:14 PM

Any of you who think that the IRA was a minority force in Irish Nationalism have never explored the corollary of that argument; that the IRA was in fact only the tip of the much larger iceberg of resentment and anger that was, and to a very large degree still is, prevalent in Northern politics.

Resentment and anger that can make otherwise decent, law abiding people like the good aforementioned Reverend Father, vent their frustration in outbursts as has been discussed here.

Ordinary decent law-abiding Nationalists (as they are commonly known on this forum), far from just wanting "all this enmity to go away", Don, were absolutely disgusted at their (our) treatment by the over-classes since the statelet's inception, and suffered many, many injustices served upon them, silently.

The British are responsible for the IRA's resurrection from the ashes of 1969, and true to form cry 'Foul' at every mention of their name

'Own Goal' would be a much better analogy


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 03:19 AM

disgusted at their (our) treatment by the over-classes since the statelet's inception, and suffered many, many injustices served upon them, silently

Another point of view is that those injustices could have been overcome much more quickly without killing a single father, mother or child.
That you could have been where you are now years ago but for the actions of that internationally reviled terrorist group with all its links to terror sponsoring Arab states like Gaddaffi's Libya, and other terrorist groups like the drug dealing Contras of Columbia.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 11:49 AM

There is another school of thought, Keith that injustices would never have been overcome without it.

You throw away our grieviences like so much old rubbish, Keith, and being retrospectively optimistic as you always are, you fail to see where all of that non-violence got us.

The IRA were the tip of the iceberg.

You quote me in the first line of your post, and then proceed as if you have never read it.

You crowd are in the tertiary stages of denial, Keith. It would seem that the majority of the rest of the 'British' posters like yourself have gotten the message already.

Try and look at what happened, rather than relying on your own Hollywoodised version of it to keep you comforted in your old age, Keith. Your population will be a lot safer in the future if you heed this advice we give you.

You could be a lot further on but for the actions of that internationally reviled terrorist group with all its links to terror, sponsoring Loyalist Death Squads and their ilk.

The Nationalist people of the north of Ireland did not have the comfort of your patience; things were a bit more life or death up until the final ceasefire.

How many of us would you have been prepared to see ethnically cleansed before you would have said 'Enough'?

Like the rest of the apathetic 'British', probably all of us.

Don't talk wet, for Chrissakes


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:16 AM

Yes, different schools of thought, and we will never agree will we?

I do not throw away your grievances like rubbish.
Nor do I throw away those of African Americans.
But they overcame, and overcame without murdering a single farmer because he had been a National Guard, or mother and child doing the daily shop.

Perhaps I am in denial.
I can see why you might be in denial. How could you live with the possibility that all the innocent blood on your hands was shed for no good purpose?

All ancient history now thank God.
Best wishes,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:41 AM

I object to being put on a list as being pro IRA

just wanted to say that

feel free to carry on


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Den
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:59 AM

Guilty by association WLD. That could have seen you do 16 years in the Kesh.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:02 AM

That was me wasn't it.
No excuse Weelittledrummer
Very sorry,
Keith (grovelling)


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:24 AM

I'm sure the comapany would have been excellent!


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 10:05 AM

There is no doubt weelittledrummer that you are a pacifist, we all welcome your posts. I would have welcomed you into my unit anytime !


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 10:16 AM

I would also have welcomed Keith into my Unit, it was Ward 4 City Hospital Belfast.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 08:04 AM

those Poles sneaking into church at the back....?


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