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BS: Circumcision: pros and cons

michaelr 13 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM
GUEST 13 Oct 05 - 07:01 PM
gnu 13 Oct 05 - 07:02 PM
open mike 13 Oct 05 - 07:26 PM
bobad 13 Oct 05 - 07:41 PM
Bill D 13 Oct 05 - 07:55 PM
GUEST 13 Oct 05 - 08:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 05 - 08:30 PM
michaelr 13 Oct 05 - 08:30 PM
bbc 13 Oct 05 - 09:41 PM
dianavan 13 Oct 05 - 09:57 PM
Rapparee 13 Oct 05 - 09:58 PM
Joybell 13 Oct 05 - 10:07 PM
GUEST 13 Oct 05 - 10:36 PM
bobad 13 Oct 05 - 10:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 05 - 11:59 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Oct 05 - 12:02 AM
Mark Cohen 14 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,ghost 14 Oct 05 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,Art 14 Oct 05 - 01:11 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Oct 05 - 03:59 AM
dianavan 14 Oct 05 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Cluin 14 Oct 05 - 04:51 AM
Paco Rabanne 14 Oct 05 - 04:58 AM
Liz the Squeak 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM
Paco Rabanne 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM
Sttaw Legend 14 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM
Strollin' Johnny 14 Oct 05 - 07:23 AM
manitas_at_work 14 Oct 05 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,andy 14 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM
Sooz 14 Oct 05 - 08:29 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Oct 05 - 08:31 AM
Rapparee 14 Oct 05 - 08:49 AM
Le Scaramouche 14 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,joe 14 Oct 05 - 09:44 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM
Paul Burke 14 Oct 05 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,redhorse 14 Oct 05 - 10:19 AM
Allan C. 14 Oct 05 - 10:25 AM
bobad 14 Oct 05 - 10:35 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM
Le Scaramouche 14 Oct 05 - 11:57 AM
Strollin' Johnny 14 Oct 05 - 11:58 AM
JennyO 14 Oct 05 - 12:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 14 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM
frogprince 14 Oct 05 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Richard H 14 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM
Clinton Hammond 14 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 05 - 01:55 PM
Peace 14 Oct 05 - 01:58 PM

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Subject: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM

(In USA) A coworker of mine has a new baby boy. When he mentioned he's planning to have him cirumcised, my reaction was "People still go for that barbaric nonsense?"

Having been born in Europe, I am uncircumcised; so are my stepson and grandson. It's never caused any of us any problem. I believe there are no medical reasons for circumcision, but there are good reasons not to do it.

Anyone care to comment?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:01 PM

I've never missed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: gnu
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:02 PM

What are the good reason not to do it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: open mike
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:26 PM

any one dare to comment?

here are some comments pro and con

http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/2-ch/412-circumcision.htm

and Mothering magazine is primarily against circumcision.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/protect-uncircson.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/against-circumcision.html

FOR MORE INFORMATION
Organizations
If your physician or healthcare provider ever recommends that your child be circumcised, get another opinion from a physician who understands the important functions of the foreskin, no matter how "urgent" the situation may be. For help finding one in your area, contact:

National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC). PO Box 2512, San Anselmo, CA 94979-2512. 415-488-9883. Fax: 415-488-9660. www.nocirc.org/

Doctors are encouraged to contact and join:
Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC). 2442 NW Market Street #42, Seattle, WA 98107. 360-385-1882. Fax: 360-385-1948. faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/

Another resource especially for nurses:
Nurses for the Rights of the Child. 369 Montezuma #354, Santa Fe, NM 87501. 505-989-7377. www.cirp.org/nrc/

For information about alternative bris for Jewish parents:
Circumcision Resource Center. Ronald Goldman, PhD. PO Box 232, Boston, MA 02133. 617-523-0088. www.circumcision.org/

One of the best sources of information on the Internet:
The Circumcision Information and Resource Pages. www.cirp.org/

rganizations
Doctor's Opposing Circumcision (Doc) 2442 N.W. Market Street, Suite 42 Seattle, WA 98107 206-368-8358 weber.u.washington.edu/-gcd/DOC/

The National Organization of Circumcision information Resource Center's (NOCIRC) PO Box 2512 San Anselmo, CA 94979-2512 415-488-9883 www.nocirc.org

The National Organization to Halt the Abuse and Routine Mutilation of Males (NOHARMM) PO Box 460795 San Francisco, CA 94146-0795 415-826-9351 www.noharmm.org

Nurses for the Rights of the Child 369 Montezuma, Suite 354 Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-989-7377 www.cirp.org/nrc/


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:41 PM

A common error made by those who want to justify infant male circumcision on the basis of medical benefits is that they believe that as long as some such benefits are present, circumcision can be justified as therapeutic, in the sense of preventive health care. This is not correct. A medical-benefits or "therapeutic" justification requires that overall the medical benefits sought outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them, that this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits, and that these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child. None of these conditions is fulfilled for routine infant male circumcision. If we view a child's foreskin as having a valid function, we are no more justified in amputating it than any other part of the child's body unless the operation is medically required treatment and the least harmful way to provide that treatment.

From Margaret Somerville, director of McGill University's Mcgill centre of Medicine, Ethics and Law


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:55 PM

I had no choice in 1939, when 'most' boys in the US had it done....I did have a say when my son was born in 1983, and he was spared. There are VERY few cases where there is a medical reason for the procedure, and that can usually be put off for a few years.

I am told that uncircumcised means 'higher sensitivity' and thus occasionl premature ejaculation, and requires greater care in washing....but circumcision seems like a pretty strong cure for minor problems.

I have never really heard who invented it and why it was started in the first place.

But...this is the internet, and I suppose a 3 minute search would tell me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:19 PM

I heard a report recently on a news broadcast that said non circumcised men are more likely to contract HIV. The broadcaster just announced that "finding" and gave no further information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:30 PM

What are the good reason not to do it?

Seems pretty obvious that unless there is a pretty good reason for it you don't go cutting off bits of your baby's anatomy just for fun of it.

I've never understood why people who are horrified at the idea of genital mutilation for girls seem so unperturbed about circumcision for boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:30 PM

open mike -- thanks for those links! Just what I needed to present my coworker some food for thought.

gnu -- check out this link to find answers to your question.

Don't mutilate your children!

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bbc
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:41 PM

I didn't have either of my sons circumcised (now 20 & 23) & both are quite happy about it. My husband was circumcised; my dad was not.

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:57 PM

I understand where and when and who started it but will never understand why it became standard procedure in the U.S. How did this happen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:58 PM

While there might not be medical reasons, there certainly are religious ones. Both Islam and Judaism ordain circumsion for male infants, and other religions may do so as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:07 PM

Another point worth mentioning - Having worked as a nurse during the time circumcision was more popular, I can say that it is most surely an extremely painful proceedure. I've held babies down while it was done. I never could come to terms with the idea that "it's quick and he'll forget all about it." Also for what it's worth, I worked for 30 years in surgical hospitals and came across only 2 adult men (no young boys) who needed circumcision for medical reasons. They, of course, had the operation under general anesthetic.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:36 PM

Another rationalization I can give to my therapist for the general malaise that is my life ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:46 PM

All is not lost guest foreskin restoration


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:59 PM

During WW2, both my wife and I served in the Medical Corps. Many servicemen coming back from the South Pacific and Asia after jungle fighting had horrid hard-to-treat infections in the genital area. Infections were far less serious on men who had been circumcised.

We had our male children circumcised and made sure their male children also were circumcised. I doubt that a nurse who served in WW2 (or Vietnam), who dealt with jungle rot and other infections contracted in the South Pacific, would ever argue against circumcision. In WW2 there were only the rather unpredictable sulfa drugs. Treatments and antibiotics may be much better now, but because of our hospital service at that time, we would be hard to convince.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:02 AM

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

My daughter is uncircumcised, and I am uncircumsized. My son, like his father, are uncircumcised. It seems only fair!

We recognize female circumcision as barbarous and cruel, yet male circumcision has continued to the present day in this "enlightened" nation.

I heard a program on NPR quite a number of years ago now in which a fellow who had been circumsized went through the skin stretching process to restore his foreskin. He was very happy with the results.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

Joybell, things have changed. Most doctors who do circumcisions these days use a local anesthetic or some other method of pain control.

Personally I have mixed feelings about it, and I was very glad my daughter was a daughter so I didn't have to face that decision. (Since I'm Jewish, there would have been a very strong expectation--both from outside and from my own beliefs--that it would be done, but I also would have had strong reservations.) I was also glad that for most of my career as a general pediatrician I practiced in an area where the pediatricians did not do circumcisions...because I didn't like doing the procedure.

Basically, some form of ritual mutilation has been part of human culture for thousands and perhaps millions of years. In many cultures it's done at puberty as part of a rite of passage. Many anthropologists believe that the ritual represents a symbolic death and rebirth. (Read the book "Transitions" by William Bridges for a helpful discussion.) In other cultures, the mutilation, without the ritual, is done as a personal or fashion statement...witness all the tattoos and piercings that are currently so popular among young (and not so young) people these days--or, if you prefer, try to find a pair of clip-on earrings in a jewelry store.

Circumcision is generally considered not to be medically necessary. On the other hand, it clearly does protect against urinary tract infection in infant boys, which is much less common than in girls. That can lead to kidney failure or death if not treated adequately, and that's not trivial, though I'm not sure it's enough of a justification for the procedure. Also, I've treated more than a few uncircumcised boys for infections caused by lack of careful hygiene. Those problems don't exist in circumcised boys. On the other hand, we don't pull out everybody's teeth because some people get bad tooth decay.

An interesting sidelight is that when doctors do circumcisions, it's sometimes obstetricians and sometimes pediatricians. Which one does it depends completely on the tradition in the local community. The fact that obstetricians sometimes do this surgical procedure on babies, when they don't provide any other care to the baby, is a throwback to the old days when the newborn nursery was considered part of the obstetric service, and the mother and baby were both the obstetrician's patients until they went home.

Whether or not babies are circumcised mostly depends on the history and culture of a particular community. I've been in places where nearly all the boy babies were circumcised, and in others where the percentage was much lower. The numbers also change over time, as "what everybody does" goes in and out of fashion.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,ghost
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:13 AM

I thought the reasons for and against were cut and dried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Art
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:11 AM

My old uncle, who I like to quote here every so often, was out plowing with his prize bulls one day. Pretty amazed, I yelled, "Uncle, uncle, why are ya plowing with your two prize bulls?"
He answered, "Well, I don't want 'em to start thinking that life is all fun and games!"

Extrapolating, I've always figured that a little early pain might be a good instructive lesson for the kids!! ;-)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:59 AM

Speaking as one who had to be circumcised in my early fifties due to thinning of the skin and being thus prone to infection...I wish I had had it done when much younger. That way the scars would have been gone years ago and I would not have had the problem.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:03 AM

'Failure to protect' a child from injury is why so many mothers are blamed for their children's misery in adult life. This holds true whether or not the mother is even aware that the child has been assaulted. 'Failure to protect' might also be the reason for many men's hostility to women in general.

If a mother allows her son to be sexually assaulted, wouldn't it follow that the son would feel anger toward his mother and generalize that feeling to all women?

Aside from the fact that it is not a medical necessity, I think that there are many psychological and emotional considerations. In fact, I think it should be considered a crime. I don't think too many men ever gave their consent to be circumsised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:51 AM

How can I miss what I don't remember having? I'm just glad they stopped at the foreskin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:58 AM

dianavan,
         WHAT are you on about?? My and all my mates were circumised at birth in the 1950's. It was routine in my part of the world for "health" reasons. None us turned out "damaged/abusive to women" etc etc We just got on with life in the real world!


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM

Ah.... there would be some who say they threw the wrong bit away..... *BG*

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM

Apparently though, my mother told me much later, that the Hospital had told her that in my case, the circumcision had been a BIG job!


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

Mine's in a jam jar - I can take it or leave it, I some times wear it in winter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:23 AM

A pal of mine had his son circumcised and they used the piece of skin to repair a damaged eyelid. His dad thjought it might give him greater foresight, but his mother was worried it might make him cock-eyed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:33 AM

Does he wink whenever...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,andy
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

I don't care, it's no skin off my nose!


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Sooz
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:29 AM

Grooooan


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:31 AM

I know who you mean SJ and he's a right "winker"
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:49 AM

Sort of peripherally relevant:

God was just about done creating man, but he had two things left over in his bag and He couldn't quite decide how to split them between Adam and Eve. He thought He might just as well ask them. He told them one of the things He had left was a thing-a-mabob that would allow the owner to pee while standing up. "It's a very handy thing," God told them, "and I was wondering if either one of you had a preference for it."


Well, Adam jumped up and down and begged, "Oh, please give that to me! I'd love to be able to do that! It seems like just the sort of thing a man should have. Please! Pleeease! Give it to me!" On and on he went like an excited little boy.

Eve just smiled and told God that if Adam really wanted it so badly, he could have it.

So God gave Adam the thing that allowed him to pee standing up. Adam was so excited he just started whizzing all over the place -- first on the side of a rock, then he wrote his name in the sand, and then he tried to see if he could hit a stump ten feet away -- laughing with delight all the while.

God and Eve watched him with amusement and then God said to Eve, "Well, I guess you're kind of stuck with the last thing I have left"

"What's it called?" asked Eve.

"Brains," said God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

Those of you going on about how barabric it is and comparing to female circumsion, it sounds like you haven't a clue. The latter truly is barbaric, inflicting great pain and agony whilst presenting no benefits, with the former, you get it over and done with, it hurts for a few days and then is gone. Never given me any touble in 22 years.
Of course, if you do it in adulthood, hurts like blazes. That's why Judaism says eight days. I'm not really sure why Muslims do it in later childhood, but it's still better than having it done as an adult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:44 AM

let me correct you on that Scaramouche : with a general anaesthetic it doesn't hurt hardly at all . I had to have the operation last year and was absolutely petrified at the thoughts of the pain ;I thought I'd be in agony for weeks afterwards ,but that wasn't the case.On the scale of pain from one to ten with a terrible toothache at ten and the discomfiture of a mild cold ranked at one , I'd rank the pain of circumcision at one and a half.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM

Scaramouche, who are you accusing of being clueless? You think female circumcision is considered to have "no benefits" by the cultures that practice it? You think wrong. They think there is a benefit, but unfortunately the "they" who do the deciding are males (with adult females as proxy) who are practicing superstition and maintaining control over the women who are altered in this way. The point of that example was that what one culture approves another might not, and it is perspective and knowledge that temper the choice to mutilate a sex organ or not. So why do you think that a practice in the Western world of circumcising boys shouldn't be held to the same gaze, and found wanting? Because it hurts a little less?

It is unnecessary. And if small boys aren't taught how to keep it clean, then there is the problem. Teach the parents how to teach the child, don't just cut off the flap of skin because it is expedient.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:59 AM

Circumcision was almost unknown among the non- Jewish community in Salford in the 50s and 60s. So much so, that when our old-maid teacher, Miss Daly, had to explain the meaning of the Feast of the Circumcision (Catholic January 1st) to us as 7 year olds, she told us that circumcision meant that they cut a circle of skin- from his ARM.

This is what Jesus thought about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:19 AM

Maybe we should think of it in terms of Evolution. If you beliieve in ID, God put the foreskin there, so cutting it off is tantamount to blasphemy. If on the other hand you believe in Darwinian evolution, its presence must have conferred an evolutionary advantage otherwise it would have disappeared; why deny the child that advantage?
Either way, Woodman spare that tree!

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:25 AM

A man walked into a small shop that had hundreds of watches and clocks in the front window. He produced a wristwatch from his pocket and placed it on the counter in front of the shopkeeper.

"I'd like to have this repaired, please."

The shopkeeper looked at him oddly and said, "We don't repair watches here."

Surprised, the man asked, "If you don't repair watches, do you sell them?"

"No." The shopkeeper replied.

"Well!" The man said with a growl. "Why, then do you have so many timepieces hanging in your front window?"

The shopkeeper answered, "I do circumcisions. What would you put in the window?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:35 AM

Did you hear the one about the zoo employee whose job was circumcising the elephants?

It didn't pay much but the tips were huge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM

There was a joke about a wallet made from an elephant foreskin. Need more room? Just rub it a little and it expands into a full-size suitcase.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 11:57 AM

"You think female circumcision is considered to have "no benefits" by the cultures that practice it? You think wrong."

No, I said it presents no benefits!

Redhorse, if one believes in God (or that of the Bible), there is nothing blasphemous about circumcision. Have a look at Genesis 17.

Joe, glad to hear, but I've known several people who had it done in their 30s. They were in agony for weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 11:58 AM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:02 PM

Crossposting is a bugger, isn't it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM

"there certainly are religious ones"
Another good reason to ban the idiocy of religion!

"how barabric it is and comparing to female circumsion(sic.), it sounds like you haven't a clue."
Sorry... you're the one without a clue... it's mutilation... for NO good reason... In either sex


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:12 PM

But if everyone stops doing it, you won't be able to get those little bags of what they sell as "pork rinds" anymore...


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM

My brother's wife was previously married to a Jew and had a son who was circumcised. My brother always told me the boy could never... enjoy himself in the bathroom.

Is it true circumcised males can't... because there's nothing to ... back and forth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

"Is it true circumcised males can't"

Not remotely


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:55 PM

There was a rumor floating around that the barstools on Aristotle Onassis's yacht were covered with whale foreskins. This engendered a lot of the kind of jokes one might expect, such as "If you rub them just right, they, turn into couches." I heard this some time ago and assumed it was an urban legend, but I couldn't find anything on it on Snopes.

But it turns out that apparently there actually is a fair amount of trading in whale foreskins. This is thoroughly explained in a book by someone who makes his living harvesting whale foreskins. I can't recall the title of the book, but oddly enough, it does contain the word, "Dick."

The opening line reads, "Call me Ishmohel."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:58 PM

'The opening line reads, "Call me Ishmohel."'

THAT is good.


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Mudcat time: 15 November 11:41 AM EST

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