BS: Circumcision: pros and cons

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

It is no more mutilation than having ones tonsils removed. It causes no pain, discomfiture or complications in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:34 PM

" It causes no pain?

Bull and shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:53 PM

Perhaps you ought to read first, as I said no pain in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:05 PM

Well, in that case, it's a spurious argument at best... If I punch you in the face today, later in life it won't cause you pain either... Doesn't make it O.K. to punch you in the face, does it?

Seems to be a pretty scummy thing to do... to be arguing in FAVOUR of mutilation...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:17 PM

Love your new tactic.
I don't accept that it is mutilation, anymore than most operations are. It causes no harm and has plenty of benefits for boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:29 PM

Le Scaramouche

In regards to your statement of "plenty of benefits for boys" please read my post of 13-OCT-2005 @ 7:41. This quote is taken from a book (The Ethical Canary) written by this lady with whom I've had the privilege of working. She has degrees in both medicine and law and directs the McGill Centre of Medicine, Ethics and Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:29 PM

Benefits my arse... The biggest problem 98% of men have with fore-skin is a little smegma... and if he neglects his hygiene that badly, he's probably got bigger problems anyway...

They might have ta wipe their bums someday, so maybe it'd be better to cut those off of infants too eh.....

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

Doesn't say no benefits. I live in a country where most males are circumcised and the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects, are as a result of malpractice, something which occurs enough in all fields of medicine.
So no, I don't think one is justified in calling it mutilation or barbarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM

Circumcision: pros and cons / Home made mouse traps

Nooooooooo!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

"I live in a country where most males are circumcised"
You've checked them have you?

"the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects"
I could take a small child and cut the end of their little finger off and they'd grow up to suffer no 'ill effects' except for occasional malpractice accidents.... doesn't make it right to do does it...

Oh... wait... I asked this question before... and you couldn't put a good answer to it then either...

You also chose not to respond to bobad post... So I'm gonna quote it here so you have no excuse except being out to sea....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
A common error made by those who want to justify infant male circumcision on the basis of medical benefits is that they believe that as long as some such benefits are present, circumcision can be justified as therapeutic, in the sense of preventive health care. This is not correct. A medical-benefits or "therapeutic" justification requires that overall the medical benefits sought outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them, that this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits, and that these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child. None of these conditions is fulfilled for routine infant male circumcision. If we view a child's foreskin as having a valid function, we are no more justified in amputating it than any other part of the child's body unless the operation is medically required treatment and the least harmful way to provide that treatment.

From Margaret Somerville, director of McGill University's Mcgill centre of Medicine, Ethics and Law
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll wager you're still gonna be out to sea...

You keep talking about benefits... like???

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

I knew a guy who claimed he'd done it to himself on purpose with a buck knife at the age of twenty-five.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:27 PM

No need to check, most Israelis are. Jews are and Muslims too, there's most of the populace for you.
As to not responding to Bobad's post, I did. If you like the answer or not, that's your problem.
What benefits, more hygenic for one.
"I could take a small child and cut the end of their little finger off and they'd grow up to suffer no 'ill effects' except for occasional malpractice accidents...."
This pretty much shows you either don't know how or don't care to read what people actualy said. Those who suffer any ill effects are because of accidents caused during the procedure, which are quite rare and happen in all fields of medicine.
There are millions of people in the world who are none the worse for circumsion and would resent your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:36 PM

Circumcision, of either sex, in the name of "GHAD" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

"What benefits, more hygenic(sic.) for one."
Already shown in this thread to be erroneous... So, got any other supposed benefits?

" There are millions of people in the world"
There are millions of people in the world who think it's o.k. to leave first-born daughters out in the elements to die...
There are millions of people in the world who think women and children are property...
There are millions of people in the world who think it's o.k. to kill in the name of some mything being...

Are they as right as the millions who think that mutiliation for NO good reason is o.k.???

"would resent your assertions"
F&*k 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

http://www.cirp.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Shmuckie
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:48 PM

Clinton Hammond sez "Circumcision, of either sex, in the name of "GHAD" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard..."

The stupidest thing I ever heard of was slow suicide by cigarette smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:51 PM

No, what has been shown is that the benefits aren't enough to justify terming it theraputic. Not that there aren't any. For all I know that's only one opinion. Find me a medical issue where opinions aren't divided or as plentiful as there are doctors.
To return to my original point, it is quite fatuous to compare male and female circumcision, simply because snipping a piece of skin off is distasteful to you. It downplays one (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies) and to overstate another.
The difference between what I was saying and the examples given in your post above is that they are done unto others. Circumcision occurs to YOU, if it's that awful, you won't do it to your son. I suspect there's more than a little cultural arrogance in your opinnions.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:53 PM

Oh, Clinton, I must ask, what do you think of tattoos and body-piercing?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM

I ain't Clinton but I wanna answer the last question. The idea of getting my navel pierced makes me want to puke. Tattoos wouldn't bother me a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:07 PM

Oh, right, I happen to disagree with tattooing, so you must be a barbaric scumbag!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:11 PM

" The stupidest thing I ever heard of was slow suicide by cigarette smoking."
I'm not likely to disagree... The difference is, I'm not FORCING MY smoking on a helpless infant.... Slow suicide? So what... all living is slow suicide...   Ya wanna live forever?

"what do you think of tattoos and body-piercing"
You talking about doing it to yourself, or FORCING it on somebody else?    It's your body, and if you wanna cram broken glass up yer butt, I don't give a tinkers cuss... If you wanna claim that "GHAD" or TRADITION or whatver tells you you should cram it up yer childs back-side... That I have a problem with....

"I suspect there's more than a little cultural arrogance in your opinnions"
A little?!?! Try a LOT... I'll yell it from the roof-tops "I'm a better human being than ANYONE who elects to mutilate their children! Especially the ones who do it while hiding behind mythology!!!"

"I ain't Clinton"
You're SOOOOO lucky mate! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:20 PM

"so you must be a barbaric scumbag!!!"

Funny, that's what I have tattooed on me arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:30 PM

Alright, Clinton, fair enough. Shall we call it quits, as don't think either has something to say that hasn't been said already.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:31 PM

Absolutely fascinating discussion. . . .

I once heard about a guy who had a propellor tattooed on each buttock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

I can understand that a lot of people now feel that male circumcision is unnecessary and inappropriate. But I have a hard time understanding anything remotely like the outrage over it that we're seeing here. If you could get an accurate survey of circumcised males, nationally or worldwide, you would look far and wide for any male outside a mental institution who gives any thought, in any given five year period, to whether or not he is circumcised. (Apart, that is, from any religious significance it has for him.)
To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced (which I personally wouldn't do) with the crippling practice of foot binding.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

And he would sing, "Anchors Away" when he shat, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM

Above post for Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:57 PM

I live in a country where most males are circumcised and the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects, are as a result of malpractice, something which occurs enough in all fields of medicine.
So no, I don't think one is justified in calling it mutilation or barbarism.

There is no logical connection between those two sentences. Putting "So" at the start of the second does seem to seek to imply that there is.

It doesn't hurt if you have it done to you as a child, but it would hurt a great deal if it were done to you as an adult? How convenient. Isn't it possible that it hurts in both cases, but our memories of what happens to us as babies are not normally accessible to us in later life?

The strange thing is how this rather odd cultural idiosyncracy became common practice in the USA in a secular context, whereas in most parts of the world it has been more or less confined to the field of religious ritual.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:59 PM

Or something.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

"
To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced"

Why? I don't get your analogy. Both involve the unnecessary removal of a portion of anatomy for ritualistic purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:32 PM

Read the rest of my sentence, Boab.
"To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced (which I personally wouldn't do) with the crippling practice of foot binding."
Even if one grants that male circumcision is indefensible, it is just such a minor, inconsequential, "indefensible" thing in comparision to female circumcision, which drastically, tragically, affects the quality of the females life forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:36 PM

'Scuse me, Bobab

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:38 PM

oh, never mind...
(Bobad; Bobad; Bobad: Bobad......)

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

Male circumcision also affects the quality of the male's life forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Clinton does a much better job of arguing this than I do.

Its really a matter of whether you are willing to inflict pain on an infant.


Just because you can't remember it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. We know that often children who are sexually abused cannot remember the event because of the trauma. This is what I mean by the 'failure to protect' syndrome, ie: I don't know why I am so angry with my mother. She has never been anything but kind and loving. (Its because she failed to protect you).


McGrath - I have the same question as you do - "The strange thing is how this rather odd cultural idiosyncracy became common practice in the USA in a secular context, whereas in most parts of the world it has been more or less confined to the field of religious ritual."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:38 PM

The information I had when my son was born was that it reduced the risk of cervical cancer in his eventual partner. With the new treatment for this maybe it is no longer aplicable

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:41 PM

I know an adult who recently had himself circumcised and was greatly pleased. I took care to remind him he owed a cock to Aesclepius.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Internal combustion makes it go. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:47 AM

In most instances, it would be better applied to the nose.

One will then know, in advance, the type of service being rendered and the nurture to the nature of the resiplicant... with advance warning... a greater fee can be decreed.

And as previous threads in the past 24 hours indicate - heaven help the sucorer of a syphlitic, lepor, requesting suplication.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Terry K
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:18 AM

Mate of mine got circumcised. Paid the bill - and he left a tip.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 03:19 AM

I think one of the ancestors must have been pretty bored sitting around the campfire when he came up with the idea. "Hey, lets cut a chunk off of that kids dick! It might make God happy, nothing else has."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:38 AM

Of course, there was the guy who went to his doctor and said he wanted to be castrated. The doc argued and argued but to no avail, the guy was adamant. So he did the operation. The guy woke up in the recovery room next to a man who had bandages in the same spot.
He asked, "So, what did they do to you?"
His neighbor said, "I was circumcised."
The man paused, then slapped his forehead and said, "THAT'S the word!"

And where do all the mohels in Philadelphia live?











On Juniper Street.

Aloha,
Mark

PS, Yes, there are medical benefits to circumcision, and yes, measures are now taken to make it a painless procedure for babies as well. Does that make it right? Not necessarily, but it makes some of the issues a bit less black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:05 AM

In a way uit's a bit like docking puppies. Some people still seem to think they've got the right to do that. The dogs rarely complain about it in later life, after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:52 AM

Mark

Could you please enlighten us about the medical benefits to which you refer.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:36 PM

Male circumcision also affects the quality of the male's life forever.

That's exactly it. According to findings published by the British Society of Urologists, the foreskin contains a large number of nerve endings, while the glans contains relatively few. You lop it off, you lose sensation.

Dianavan's point, although apparently not yet researched by the scientific community, also makes sense. Such trauma experienced by an infant may well lead to sexual anger and violence in the adult.

Check the research at www.noharmm.org.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:48 PM

Dianavan's point, although apparently not yet researched by the scientific community, also makes sense. Such trauma experienced by an infant may well lead to sexual anger and violence in the adult.

You are so right about that. It's well known that anti-Semitism throughout history was brought on by the fact that circumcised Jews have been raping decent white women en masse.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:31 PM

This isn't about anti-Semitism, GUEST.

This is about the rights of the child and, possibly, a cycle of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:41 PM

Gee... I haven't been following this thread and haven't read most of it but 95 posts? Wow... seems like a big flap over a small tissue.

Minds me... wife comes home and gives her husband a wallet but forgets the price tag is in the box. He sees it and goes nuts! "$95? You paid $95 bucks fer a wallet? Are you crazy?" She says, "But, it's made of elephant foreskin." He asks her, "So what?" She replies, "Rub it a bit and it turns into a set of luggage." Smart shopper.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,feeling slightly queasy
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

look, to those still comparing male & female circumcision & saying they are both as bad as each other - you do know what they both entail, right?
Male circumcision - removing a flap of skin. Causing reduced sensation, so I'm told. Female circumcision - removing the whole lot. I.e. no sensation at all cos there's nothing left to sense with. The male equivalent of that would actually be chopping a large chunk of flesh off the end, not just a flap of skin.

Yes, they are both mutilation. But different degrees of it.

Not that I'm advocating either sort, I hasten to add.

There's a book by Alice Walker (author of The Color Purple) which I can't remember the name of right now, which deals very sensitively with this issue amongst africans. Worth a read if you're interested and have a strong stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

michaelr - That link is very educational and will hopefully make people stop and think before mindlessly following tradition.

I would hope that men would educate themselves and spare their sons needless pain. I am so glad to see that this issue is finally getting the attention it deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:32 PM

"There's a book by Alice Walker (author of The Color Purple) which I can't remember the name of right now"

The book title is "Warrior Marks".

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:41 PM

The issue of male circumcision is one thing. The aspects of it to do with male 'sensitivity' during sex, cleanliness, whether males who are or aren't circumcized will last longer during coitus, etc. In reality, there are sites dedicated to 'both' sides of that equation. Many sites. Mostly, you are who you are, and that's that.

Female circumcision is barbaric. Suggesting that there are social customs in place and therefore it's gotta be done is nothing more or less than bullshit. Read Jackson's "The Lottery" and watch rituals/traditions at work.

The differences between male and female circumcision are massive both in their pain to the recipient and in their end results.

"Genital alteration in the female includes infibulation, clitoridectomy, clitoral circumcision and piercing. The World Health Organization had a conference in February 1979 in Khartoum, Sudan, and unanimously condemned the mutilations as disastrous to women's health and as indefensible on medical as well as humane grounds."

The above is from

here.