BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred

Subject: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 09:13 PM

Although this is almost about a band, I think it counts as BS.

In the UK we have a recent Blairite law that prohibits the promotion of religious hatred.

There is a metal band called "Cradle of Filth".

They sell merchandising that some find offensive.

One of their tracks is called "Cherish the Whore" and they have long sold a T-shirt that bears on the front that track name plus a picture of an improbably voluptuous nun masturbating with a crucifix.

Within the last week or so, a young man wearing such a T-shirt with an addditional inscription on the back of "Jesus is a cunt" has been convicted of inciting religious hatred.

Is this a justified restriction of freedom of speech or not?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 09:33 PM

Nah, that's just a childish, profane attempt to curry attention.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 09:52 PM

But it might sell CD's?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:05 PM

Art (and I don't mean Mr Thieme!) has long often skirted the limits of 'currently accepted offensiveness' in attempts to shock the audience into new ways of thinking. Sometimes it's an advance, sometimes it's a retrograde step - usually only judged in hindsight.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:47 PM

It can't be all black or all white. What people wear on their T-shirts is their business until they wear it where it can be seen by someone else's children. Children should not have to be introduced to the ugliest society has to offer as soon as they learn to read. I regard that as child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 07:39 AM

I'd tell his mum!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:16 AM

Yes, it is entirley justified.

Imagine if the T-shirt had had the same woman in Islamic clothing, and "Mohammed is a Cunt" on the back.

This man would have convicted in three seconds flat, and almost certainly have recieved a much harsher punishment.

This is, of course, assuming he was actually arrested*. If he was wearing a T-shirt as I described, in many areas he'd find himself in hospital, not a police station. Possibly alive, as well.

If you're going to have this law it must be applied to all faiths, without Bias.


* either for the incitement to hatred, or being criminally stupid,a nd a danger to himself. I don't know if that's possible, but it seems a good idea sometimes...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 11:20 AM

Recently here in Texas a woman was wearing a T-shirt that was a takeoff on the movie "Meet the Fockers" - but it had a picture of the president and vice president and it said "Meet the Fuckers".

She was told she could not board an airplane { Southwest Airlines I believe } until she covered up the shirt or changed it. She felt her free speech was infringed upon. I disagree.

While I agree with her assessment of the president and vice president I don't think a t-shirt with that language should be worn if there is the very real chance that kids would be exposed to it. That same t-shirt worn at a Democratic Party fund raiser or an anti-war rally might be just fine. But I don't think the general public needs to have it forced upon them.

Aside from I think that an airline - like any other business - has the right to tell people using their services what clothing is suitable. Your opinion may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:06 PM

I think we need to keep in mind who is doing the censoring.

If someone wears a tasteless and / obscene T-shirt or such, the government has no business whatsoever in getting involved. If, however, you're running a restaurant and someone comes in wearing a message T-shirt that you find offensive and feel certain that some of your other patrons might also, then you're perfectly within your legal and Constitutional rights to refuse them admission or service. This would hold true for any privately owned business, such as an airline.

If I own a public address system and someone wants to use it to broadcast a message that I don't agree with, the Constitution—and the First Amendment—do not require that I allow him to use it, no matter how much he may protest that I am abridging his freedom of speech.

One should be clear about this:   the Constitution restricts the powers and actions of the government. But not private citizens.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: GUEST, Devil's Advocate
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:10 PM

But, shurely Jesus is a component of the Holy Trinity and, therefore, is God and, therefore, omnipotent and, therefore, all things and, therefore, ... a cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Jon W.
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:21 PM

How do you go from Omnipotent (All-powerful) to "all things?" That's where your logic breaks down. It would be logically impossible for God to be "All things" since some things are mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:31 PM

If God were "all things," then He/She/It is both Good and Evil. That means that God must also be Satan.

That puts a whole new spin on theology.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:57 PM

Erm ... yes, that's exactly what all powerful means. Good AND evil at the same time. That's where Abramic theology breaks down.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:08 PM

I would suggest it is rather, where our 'understanding' of God in Abramic theology breaks down.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:21 PM

Ahh ... so the logic is sound but we're too stupid to interpret it correctly?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

Quite frankly, there are any number of concepts which come to mind that I am most assuredly "too stupid" to comprehend, not the least of which is the true nature of God.
But I hold hope that perhaps some day I shall become as enlightened as you.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:50 PM

Good one. Ouch.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

Sorry
Just funnin don't you know.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

My respect for TheBigPinkLad has just taken a quantum leap! When someone can recognize that they've been parried, then nailed with a solid riposte, and acknowledge the hit, therein one finds a gentleman and a scholar!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:07 PM

Or a sarcastic sod, Don ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 02:20 PM

Fuck it... it's a t-shirt... you dont' like it? Tough... don't buy one... You don't like that I'm wearing one? Tough... Don't buy my CD... Don't like that -I- hate your religion? Tough... That's life for ya... Some people are going to hate you... sometimes for no reason... Try not to lose any sleep over it...

You don't like that your poor little baby might have to see what's on my t-shirt? THink of this as an opportunity for you to show the world what a good parent you are by taking the time to talk to them about it...   I don't give a shit about your baby....   And I'm not gonna change my driving just because YOU put a stupid "Baby On Board" sign in your car window... the world doesn't change cauae YOU put up a sign...

Or because you don't like what I have on my t-shirt...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:01 PM

I think the young man's T-shirt expresses contempt. That's not necessarily the same thing as expressing hatred. The only way such a shirt could incite hatred would be to incite hatred against the person wearing it. That's not a crime, it's stupidity on the wearer's part. Trust me, nobody felt the least bit compelled to go burn down a church after reading the message on that T-shirt.

Furthermore, the shirt didn't say something like "Jesus is a cunt. Mohammed is the true prophet." Its message is nihilistic, not antagonistic. Last time I checked, nihilism was still a legal worldview.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:25 PM

Hells bells. For I think the first time ever I agree with BOTH the above posters!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 04:36 PM

They would probably have arrested Cornelis van Haarlem (1562-1638) Dutch painter (Haarlem), for "The Monk and the Nun," 1591, Oil on canvas, Frans Halsmuseum, Haarlem.

If you scroll down on the description, you'll find that everything has it's pious explanation. All that's needed is a good lawyer.

John

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:38 PM

I'm sorry, but the ARE things which are simply beyond the pale. Tee Shirts of that sort could be worn in 'some' places, at private gatherings, but as liberal as I am, and relatively tolerant, I would not appreciate stuff **designed** to be offensive and crude. Clever things with double-entendré remarks are one thing: stupid, hateful obscenities are another.

I simply do NOT feel that anything goes, and that the filtering is the responsibility of everyone else.

Anyone who puts on a shirt like that KNOWS whether it crosses the line, and they are doing it because it crosses the line....

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:33 PM

Best t-shirt I ever had read: "I am trying to see things from your point of view but I can't stick my head that far up my ass."

I made use of it once many years back in a meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 12:37 AM

" I simply do NOT feel that anything goes"
Fortunately, it's not your world...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 01:16 AM

Don't get so upset Clinton. You're such an old softie...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: open mike
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:19 AM

i heard another t-shirt story to compare to the "faukers, fockers" one
a fellow was wearing a shirt that had George Bush's face and the words "international Terrorist" on it. he was refused boarding on a plane because someone took offense at his shirt, or rather the image on it.
He was asked to remove or cvhange the shirt and he would not. He was
removed from the plane and offered a free ticket for the inconvenience.
This was a different airline than the one the woman was on in the previous story. The fellow was david rovics (www.davidrovics.com)
a brilliant singer songwriter who has many hard-hitting songs.
He says you can get the shirt at http://www.internationalterrorist.com/
As far as rights go, he learned that when you are in the "PUBLIC"
airport terminal, your rights are protected more than when you are
in the "private" airplane.
he said it was unfortunate that the woman's shirt had a profanity
on it, as it could have made a more positive statement if it was
not as offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Piers
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 04:45 AM

I'm with Stephen Fry on this one:

'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:03 AM

Hells teeth, our children are forced to grow up so quickly already, can we not save a few obscenities for them to discover on their own?

But I also have to agree (shudder) with the remark that we should take some time and explain to our children what the word means and why it is not suitable to repeat it. I do that with Limpit and the result is, she knows a lot of obscene words but doesn't use them, a) because she knows I don't like her to and b) because we try not to use them at home. They are words for special occasions, not for everyday.

I have no problem with people wearing obscenities on their bodies, just don't tell me I've got to like it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 05:58 AM

Anyone who puts on a shirt like that KNOWS whether it crosses the line, and they are doing it because it crosses the line....

The line is one of judgement personal taste and not fixed. But the question is less one of taste but of what could or should be done to address such things if or when someone consider that someone else has crossed a line.

Is it really anyone else's business what another chooses to wear in public. Other people wearing nothing would offend some of us and be thought to be crossing a line and would risk arrest. I suggest that - it would not offend any of our various gods and creators who felt this mode of dress was perfectly acceptable in which to be introduced to the world and through a certain orifice - often called a cunt.

But is it really so bad to read something that is not to your taste when no one is forcing you to agree with it? If someone is intentionally crossing a line only to shock, offend and be noticed - perhaps it is best to simply ignore it? For everytime a fuss is made - it simply means that the next time someone wishes to intentionally cross the line - it will be crossed even more. Hysterical reactions tend not to help but always to make matters worse.

'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

Probably the very worst thing for someone who does something only to be noticed - is not to notice them. Artists do not usually mind if their work offends or delights - they do mind if no one notices it.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 06:12 AM

The human is a social animal and as such needs certain conventions by which to operate within the society. Without these conventions society would not operate at all, and those who choose to ignore those conventions do so in order to be ostracised. Some of them end up here. That's OK, we all wear obscene t-shirts here.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:10 PM

What a suggestion!

If any one is wearing an obscene T-shirt whilst reading or posting to this thread - that is really crossing the line. I have come over all faint and weak at the knees at just the thought of it.

I demand that this thread is subject to imposed deletion or closure from our anonymous fellow posters immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Peace
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:18 PM

Read my t-shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: bobad
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:23 PM

Can you just move a little closer to your monitor, I can't quite make out all the words. I can see a F... and O..

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 03:21 PM

"Don't get so upset Clinton"

Who's upset? I'm HAPPY it's not BillDs world....

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:38 AM

I prefer to type my posts without a t-shirt - in fact wearing nothing at all.

Is no one offended by this confession and is no one going to pass judgement and demand that someone does something about this practice?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:40 AM

"Is no one offended by this confession and is no one going to pass judgement and demand that someone does something about this practice?"

S'far as I'm concerned, you can practice your typing as much as you want.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 05:38 AM

Is it not to be judged as 'obnoxous'?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 11:47 AM

*standing VERY close to monitor...although facing away*... me...now...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: bobad
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

Good one BillD.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:30 PM

And please note that Bill D. appears to have mudcat on the monitor. I can't quite read his next post though.

John

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:52 PM

of course...Bill usually has Mudcat on the monitor! *grin*...(and sometimes he combs his hair before typing, but putting on the tee-shirt...well..))

That is this thread before my post.....

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

Technically, it should read "Jesus WAS a cunt".

Sloppy thinking... that's what I have no tolerance for.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 02:24 PM

If you have to draw a line somewhere, it prolly dosen't make much difference exactly where you draw it.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 02:44 PM

oh, sure it does, Dick...it's like 'folk music'...there stuff that clearly IS and stuff that clearly is NOT....and a gray area in between.

One draws lines in the 'clearly' area...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 05:02 PM

Perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 08:41 PM

Sloppy thinking Cluin? Wishful thinking more like.

I don't think he was or is half the cunt he's going to be when he comes back and sees what we've been up to.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 09:34 PM

Bill-
The posiyion of the line--whether it's obscenity or folkishness--depends upon the sensibilities of the line-drawer. Just try defending your idea of what's clearly "not folk" to a most mudcatters, and you'll see what I mean.