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'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?!
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Subject: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 02 Nov 05 - 06:49 AM This is not an anti-man thread or an anti-women thread...! Or meant to be taken too seriously, but...just raising a point that I find interesting, (and no, I am not a man-hater etc...!) I write songs for our band. (IF it is relevant, we are a four-piece, all-female, folk/blues band doing a few covers, but mainly our own material.)They are songs about many subjects. We were asked the other day whether we get more support from women than men, for our songs, because we are, obviously, women ourselves and, very strangely, I sometimes write from a female perspective(...whoops, how did that happen?! DOH!) Stick with this thread...I am not ranting about men!!! If a man writes a song about a stereotypically male subject, do we all view it as a 'man's song? Or, are people just so used to hearing songs by male songwriters, they don't even think about it? I wrote a song about PMT which usually gets a laugh and is really just poking fun in a gentle way about the way PMT can turn women into more unpredictable people...it was aimed to laugh at both sexes equally. So, when a man said it was a women's song, (he laughed and said it was funny, when he heard it, BTW)...I thought this was interesting. At one particular gig, a man even once said, he thought we were good but we shouldn't write 'women's songs' as it limited our audience straight away. I had a long animated debate about it, with him! He has since, asked me for several copies of our cd which suggests to me that he has maybe changed his mind, hopefully!) So,was he right? Note, I don't write with women in mind...just about anything that springs to mind. Our first cd had songs about September 11th, stress, diplomacy,wild women, love, lost love, grief, living for the moment,Lincolnshire,amongst other things, er...and PMT, whoops! Are they 'female'subjects? I guess it is perhaps like the idea of some men, who will not read a book if they see it is written by a woman. I am not bracketing all men in the same way, of course.Just responding to a few comments that I thought interesting. I have heard one or two female song-writers write in a constant anti-man vein, they are entitled to their opinion, but that is is all it is, their opinion, not the opinion of all women... that is nothing like the way, I write, or the way I think. I just love music and the chance to write a song gives me a way of expressing myself. So...can a song written by a woman be taken on face-value and its merits as a song rather than having the label'woman's song' applied? I await the indifference, thoughful replies and mickey-taking that follows!!! PS I have to admit, I did write a song about....er...chocolate, once! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Dave Wynn Date: 02 Nov 05 - 07:01 AM It's obvious init?..Songs written by men are better......;-) |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 02 Nov 05 - 07:11 AM WHY?! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: robomatic Date: 02 Nov 05 - 07:18 AM I listen to a lot of female artists who are not necessarily into man bashing. Mind you, if I come to the conclusion that the artist is 'only' into man bashing, or woman demeaning, I tend to lose interest rapidly. If you ever saw "Say Anything" there is a graduation party where a girl has brought her guitar to sing song after song about the boy who broke up with her. It's understandable, but hard to maintain interest. I once did a student DJ stint in Anchorage. I came on in the night following a guy who did a show of all female artists. After he did his end roll and turned the board over to me I would see him through the studio window sitting at one of the station internet computers monitoring lesbian chat sites. Regardless, he alerted me to two things, my propensity to scratch CDs and the vast quantity of good female performers and vocalists. (Quick sound effect of Dan Bern doing "Chick Singers") One thing that has also appealed to me and is apparently traditional: Men singing songs from the female point of view and women singing vice versa. These times in our prurient yet straitlaced culture in America I notice that performers tend to change the pronouns of the song to make it suitable to the opposite sex (of the singer). But some singers just sing it. My favorite modern example is the male group Jawbox doing a testosterone laden bellow of Tori Amos' "Cornflake Girl". My all time fave is Bing Crosby with the Paul Whitehman Orchestra singing "There Ain't No Sweet Man Worth The Salt Of My Tears." In my book humor and creativity trump sex-linked themes. Though it seems incredible at times, men and women ARE the same species. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GEST Date: 02 Nov 05 - 08:58 AM I don't feel that songs can be considered men's or women's purely by their authorship. Content would certainly seem to be the only criteria.
For example, if I told you the following song was written by a woman, it would most certainly make a different impression on you than if I told you it was written by a man. But what if I never told you the author's gender? :-)
Male Bonding Song
When we learned it was a shocking revelation,
Now we are men, and proud to be men,
Oh we all go running naked through the trees,
Yes every weekend we all meet deep in the forest,
For we are men, and proud to be men,
I guess we spent too long pretending
Now we are men and damned proud to be men,
Archived at GEST Songs Of Newfoundland And Labrador
P.S. Now you can say, "I knew it," since the credit for authoring this song goes to:
####.... Bill Gallaher © SOCAN, 1991 (The Road West, 1993; The Last Battle - The Best of Bill Gallaher and Jake Galbraith, 1995) ....#### |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 02 Nov 05 - 10:17 AM "So...can a song written by a woman be taken on face-value and its merits as a song rather than having the label'woman's song' applied?" I think all songs have to be taken at face value, regardless of who wrote them. "I await the indifference . . . ." This is pretty damned insulting. If you write songs to get a 'reaction', you'll get just that: a reaction. And, are you any good as a writer? |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 02 Nov 05 - 10:48 AM I totally agree that "all songs have to be taken at face value, regardless of who wrote them." Please forgive me when I said "I await the indifference..." it was meant tongue in cheek as i wasn't sure if anyone, male or female would be interested in my thoughts. It wasn't directed at men, or women. I don't know if I am 'any good' as a writer, I don't profess to be any good. I don't earn my living by it. It is just a hobby. I just like writing and performing my own and other people's songs. I don't write songs to get a reaction, particularly. I am not aiming to get 'a message' over by my songs. I just like writing and was interested to know if any other people had views on this. I play music with some lovely and talented musicians, some are male and some are female and every single one is different, with their own strengths and talents. This was more the point I was making, to accept everyone's music regardless of preconceived ideas. Thanks for not being indifferent and replying! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Diva Date: 02 Nov 05 - 11:28 AM In the tradition there are just songs |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Crane Driver Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:19 PM Songs are either third person (this happened, that happened, s/he did this or that) or first person (I did this, we saw that). Third person songs don't generally imply a gender for the singer, whereas first person songs generally do. I read somewhere that many women find it easier to write in the first person than a lot of men do, if that is the case, more songs by women may imply that the singer is female, and mark the song as a "woman's song". Doesn't always follow. Many good first person songs have been written by women from a male perspective (Linda Kelly's "Luckiest Sailor" is one that springs to mind, or Sarah Davies' "Bright Star"). Oddly, although these two songs are written from a male viewpoint, I've only ever actually heard them sung by women. On the other hand, many men have written "first person" songs, some of them from the female perspective (I've written some myself - and they've been sung by women, which is very satisfying). So, my main conclusion is - I've no idea what's going on. Personally, I only sing songs I'm comfortable with, but I'm always happy to listen to others sing from their viewpoint. And I'm not going to be put off from a good song because of the author's personal plumbing arangements. Other folk may differ, but that's folk. Andrew |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST,mg Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:24 PM Write whatever songs you want or that come to you and let the audience sort it out. It really doesn't matter if one set or the other finds it more relevant...there is room for everyone and plenty of room for lots more good songs. mg |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: George Papavgeris Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:32 PM I'm surprised no one mentioned Cicely Fox-Smith's songs; they are prime examples of songs written by a woman that stand on their own merit - as songs - and authorship is not relevant. If a song-writer navel-gazes, he/she inevitably focuses too much on self, and then whatever he/she produces will take on his/her characteristics and viewpoints, to uncomfortable or boring levels. A good songwriter will always put him/herself into other people's shoes, see the world more holistically and incorporate into the song more than a personal viewpoint - in that way the song can have wider appeal. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Kim C Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:38 PM Singing a song is a lot like telling a story, with the singer as the storyteller. And as a storyteller, you can be anyone - male, female, creature from Mars, whatever. I've written songs from female points of view, and male points of view, and I sing them all. I'm just telling the story. The audience can figure it out. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: freightdawg Date: 02 Nov 05 - 05:58 PM There are songs written that clearly involve no gender, songs that were written for one gender that can easily be sung by the other gender, and some songs that were just written for one gender and basically meant to elevate/denigrate one's gender. In the second category, John Denver wrote the song "For Baby/For Bobbie" as a love song. Good song, but it really did not hit the charts until Mary Travers sang it as the lead, changing the meaning slightly as she sang it for her child. Many, many love songs have this interchangable dynamic. Mac Davis penned and sang one of my all time favorite songs when he wrote "It's Hard To Be Humble". It is a tongue in cheek look at how men view themselves and the women in their lives. (Which, sadly, can take on very serious other dimensions). Perhaps the song could be performed by a female, but it would sound like a song written about a man was being performed by a female. It is so infused with the male psyche that I doubt a woman could have written it, and if a woman performed it the song would just lose some of its charm. While both genders may think of themselves as superior, I believe that if she wanted to poke fun at herself a woman would use different images and metaphors to convey that idea. There are some songs that promote feminism (or femininity) that just could not be sung by a man - "I Am Woman" comes immediately to mind, as does "You Make Me Feel Like A Natural Woman". Sorry, gents, just don't think we could pull those off. And since I have not heard the song the original poster wrote about her monthly cycle I cannot speak to it, but when Shania Twain sings her song all that comes to mind is "what a female dog". My mom worked hard to instill in me a basic honor and respect for women, but when certain ones of them throw their unique biological functions in my face then I cannot help but be put off. The song mentioned by Rockhen may truly be something that men may smile at, but it is still (at least for the "older" generation) something that some men find offensive and would label the song and singer as "for women only". Again, this may be generationally specific more than gender specific, and I would be interested to know the man's age who told her the group would do better if they did not sing "women's songs". Obviously, this is just my 2 cents worth. I think Rockhen's question has merit, and I have wondered about it myself from time to time. I don't think one can just say "songs is just songs" because that would denigrate the intentionality of some of the great song writers. I think that is probably the case in the overwhelming majority of songs, but that makes the few "gender specific" songs truly stand out, whether for good, or for ill. Freightdawg |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Susanne (skw) Date: 02 Nov 05 - 06:30 PM I'm a great fan of Judy Small. A lot of her material is written from a definitely feminist perspective, and sound systems have been known to go unaccountably 'dead' on her while singing material like 'The I.P.D.' or 'Montreal, December '89'. (Sorry, no blickies, Supersearch isn't working just now.) But she has also written songs from a male perspective. As has been said before, it all depends on the content of the song. On the other hand, there seem to be traditional songs that were only sung by men / women, and only in male / female company. Ailie Munro, in her book 'The Democratic Muse', gives an example from Glasgow of songs that were only known to young women and never sung in mixed company, only on hen nights and the like. They were probably about a subject no well-behaved girl would talk openly about in those days - or maybe it was just for the fun of it! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 02 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM The song mentioned in the original posting does not mention anything distasteful and is just a daft song about the misunderstandings that arise from suddenly unpredictable behaviour that some women present...just a commiseration between the sexes...in a tongue in cheek , Victoria Wood style. No bodily functions discussed and is suitable, and has been played in front of mixed audiences of all ages. (Just wanted to make that clear! And while I do agree that some songs are more for certain company/locations only, this song wasn't that type of one.) BTW in answer to freightdawg, the man who said we would be better not singing 'women's songs', was 40. Interesting, the point raised about generation affecting response to songs. Thanks for that. I think that is often, true. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: freightdawg Date: 02 Nov 05 - 10:00 PM Rockhen, After my post I went back and re-read your original post and realized that perhaps I had read more into your post than was actually there. Your clarification was appreciated but wholly unneccesary as the mistake was mine. There are many ways to approach the (mis)communication between men and women and I am sure that your song plays into that arena. Good post though, and I look forward to additional comments. Freightdawg |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 03 Nov 05 - 01:02 AM Hi there I have heard some of Rockhens stuff on the radio and she can write great songs. She is also a very aproachable performer and great keyboard player and good accordionist. I however do think that as she is a very definatly female person there is a lot of her own personality and her emotions in the songs which after all can only reflect the person who wrote them. If you are a caring and thoughtful person that puts enough of yourself and your experience and thoughts into a song to make it worrthwhile listening to then it can only reflect your own character in some way. Then there are sugary sweet naff songs that appeal to teen girls and anxt ridden rock dirges that teen guys get of on and formula songs written to exploit these and other groups of victims I look at a car wreck and see blame fault and expense rockhen sees suffering long term pain and the potential for personal loss. Marc Almond has interperated some classic songs in his own inimitable style and they are very much mens songs but they aquire an undeniable homo erotic nuance in his interpretation. This is a very good question and deserves thoughtful answers. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Celtaddict Date: 03 Nov 05 - 01:21 AM I have given thought to this question and related ones as well. It is definitely off-putting to me to go into a music store and find a category called "Women's Music" (as distinct from, for example, "Female Vocalists" which seems a useful distinction if one is looking for a particular type of recording) as it seems to me to imply there is this small group of CDs on "women's issues" presumably by, for, and about women, and the vast majority are by and for "everyone else." I beg to differ on that; "everyone" is roughly half female and the unspoken implication that everything else is male is annoying. A similar situation exists in bookstores which have "women's books" sections. Also discouraging is the idea implicit in "girls' rules" for many activities. If it involves fit of clothing or products for which only a woman has use, fine, label that part of the store accordingly. But in most endeavors, the separation can suggest that the women should be separate because they can't hold their own with the (male) mainstream. And in the university bookstore, what in the world are "women's studies"? It makes me think of Woody Allen's comment that he shouldn't have dropped out of college, because "I was in the black studies program; I could have been black by now." Agreed, there are some songs (mostly contemporary as we seem to be more inclined to write first-person specific songs) that sound downright silly with a gender change, but most of the really traditional ones do not. I have heard Martin Carthy, whose opinion I certainly respect, observe that he gives no weight to the idea of men's or women's songs, only songs worth singing and singers who will sing them. On the other hand, there are a few very interesting songs that are different songs when people of different genders sing them. Linda Allen's "October Roses" comes to mind. As she wrote it, for some mature women in her life, it is (in her own description) a "woman-power song" but when Danny O'Flaherty recorded it, it is unmistakably a love song, for an older woman. (Grandmother? Teacher? Longtime sweetheart from lover of similar age? Could be any.) Martin Carthy, Liam Clancy, Gordon Bok, many wonderful male singers sing songs which contain a female viewpoint; I know some great female "shantymen" ("shantywomen" sounds pretty silly; as a Boy Scout leader I also declined to answer to "Scoutmistress") and lullabyes sung by men are wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Joybell Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:17 PM Audience expectation is an endless topic for discussion among performers. I enjoy it as a method of trying to fathom the human mind among other reasons. I've had an experience that touches on the male/female perspective. In an entirely appropriate place I once sang a version of "The Wee One" (Traditional song about a man being left with a baby that is not his. Serious and sad - sung in the first person and that's how I kept it.) I'm known for singing sad old songs and people frequently cry or at least listen soberly. This song brought laughter from men and women. Nobody has ever thought that similar songs sung about women left with babies (admittedly their own) were funny. A male friend has had the same experience with this particular song. Strange! Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST,Val Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:32 PM Personal theory here - not claiming to know anything for sure: That lyric by Bill Gallaher, although obviously toungue-in-cheek (er... maybe that's not the best term to use given the nature of the lyric *grin*) does speak to an artifact of our age: The Women's Movement did away with many gender roles and stereotypes. Perhaps some people thought that went a bit too far, and so we saw the rise of Feminism - finding ways for women to "be women" while not falling back into the subservient roles of decades past. Now, one side effect of the Women's Movement was to remove many of the gender definitions for MEN as well (whether we wanted it or not) - and there is now a (not so well organized or publicized - and possibly ill-structured) resurgence of masculinity. All this is a long-winded way of saying our current "western" culture, at least in America, has at best rather fuzzy ideas of what the roles of Man or Woman are/should be. This uncertainty can make some folk uncomfortable, which is perhaps one reason why some folk react oddly to some songs. I do agree that singing a first-person song that speaks very specifically from the perspective of the opposite gender can be tricky - how do you convey to the audience who is speaking without either doing a clumsy spoken intro or else making them think you're "singing in drag"? Here again, women may have a slight edge over men because it seems more acceptable these days for a woman to take on a man's personna/role than vice versa. And of course, there are SOME things that a man simply CANNOT do and so will never be able to properly speak of in first person (childbirth, for example). But there's not much that a man can do that a woman can't. Maybe in a couple more generations us guys will be obsolete. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:21 PM It depends what you mean by us guys. Men have been opressed by society and biology since the dawn of time and now the "womens" movement,which has become a part of the esablishment, is turning the screw ever tighter. I dont wanna be a work horse,killer,torturer,i wanna be a person that can be nice to others without ulterior motives.I will cry when I see children suffering on the news or hear a sad song I dont need some vicious man hater to call me a rapist I love and respect all my fellow humans and I dont need any ones permission to do any of these things and dont expect to be asked for my aproval by other people. Songs are the best communiction we have,music can travel across barriers and carry messages like no other form of human to human contact. When I listen to a song from somebodies heart and mind that is the nearest I can ever hope to get to really understanding another person. It is the only chance I ever want to understand a womans perspective on life so I am glad there are "womens"songs and mens songs to listen to. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM TTT: Loved your post, more than you'll ever know. You spoke for many men with your words, and eloquently, too. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:31 AM Thank you Peace! never been accused of that before. Seems to have run out of steam as a topic dont it? Oh well suppose I had better go shave my face,chase burglars,beat the wife etc. HE HE HE |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:36 AM Speaking only about songwriters, content is where the difference lies. Women writers overwhelmingly choose to write about what can loosely be termed love/relationship/female issues. Yes, there are the exceptions that prove the rule, but if you check the subject matter of women writer's songs on your cds you'll find this rule of thumb is true over 90% of the time. Men, on the other hand range over a much wider choice of topics. I'm making no judgement here just observation. There appears to be no female equivilant to Stan Rogers for instance. Vive la difference! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Susanne (skw) Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:55 PM Boys, you must be feeling pretty insecure to come up with rants like these! We know very well not all men are rapists - but then even fewer women are feminists (in the way Tim portrays them). Anyway, because she was mentioned above - one of my favourite songs is 'Love Song' by Victoria Wood. A man who has just lost his wife thinks about their life together. It's been called sentimental; I find it simple, stark and moving, and entirely believable as a man's musings. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:58 PM "Boys, you must be feeling pretty insecure to come up with rants like these!" Not insecurity--just reality here, skw. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:59 PM Suzanne, you must be feeling under attack to say something like that. How's it feel? |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: frogprince Date: 05 Nov 05 - 10:17 PM "Women writers overwhelmingly choose to write about what can loosely be termed love/relationship/female issues.... if you check the subject matter of women writer's songs on your cds you'll find this rule of thumb is true over 90% of the time." I won't say I'm going to take the time to go through all my CD's to verify or disprove that, but it sure as heck doesn't ring true when I think of the recent artists I've heard and purchased albums from. I just reached for two recently purchased Eliza Gilkyson disks, and it's "no way Jose" in her case. One prime example of a very definite "woman's song" that came to mind first: Peggy Seeger's great song "I'm Gonna be an Engineer"; blatently feminist, reflecting honest anger, but not mean-spirited. And my newest example of a song written by a woman which has nothing to do with romance, and nothing to do with the gender of the author: MS Gylkyson's scathing indictment of someone all Americans know well, "Man of God". |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:20 AM Not all womaen are feminists as Tim portrays Well I didnt think I had written that in my particular rant, SKW but I suppose if you see it that way I must have done. Who am I a mere man to disagree? Reminds me of a saying we have around here that is probably applicable every where. "Women they have many faults But men have only Two Everything they say and everything they do" |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:27 AM Hey Twangler stop turning my thread into men v women slanging match hee hee...we know we are all individuals first! Some are just more individual, than others!!! It's a shame the term feminist became one that is often used as an insult... Maybe if we all treated others with decency as much as possible, reagardless of their anatomical design, colour of shoes or taste in music, we would find life more pleasant all round! If in doubt, just play some music and keep singing, that's my head in the sand philosophy! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:37 AM I just went to Eliza'a website and listened to the five tracks posted as mp3 samples, and you're right, "Man of God" is different from the other four, but those four do fit my generalisation. So that's 80% of what I sampled. Iliked it, but I still think my point is a true one. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 06 Nov 05 - 09:22 AM It wasnt me missus! as usual if you express a veiw other than that held to be the recieved wisdom on the subject by the rullign middle class elite of the establishment,then you are immediatly labled an heretic and abused by the harpies of political correctionism who dont actualy seem to take the time to read or listen to what you actualy say . You are out of step ergo you are wrong and should be supressed. same on here as in real life I assume. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM "It's a shame the term feminist became one that is often used as an insult" It is equally a shame that 'insecure' is the one that is often used as an insult to men. As to turning this into a slagging match, I think skw took care of that very nicely, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:32 AM TTT had written something from the heart--I saw it that way at least. I wrote to thank him for speaking for lots of guys. Then the shit hit the fan. "Boys, you must be feeling pretty insecure to come up with rants like these!" Classy remark, sure to open doors to discussion. A man speaks from the heart and he's a boy. Those of us who agree are boys. Yeah, right. This is my last post to this thread--unless I am slagged. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:04 PM But on a lighter note! http://www.funnies.com/couple.swf This is just a joke so chill out and have a larf. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:06 PM Sorry Twangy, the problem with this wonderful Mudcat system is that I for one, forget to put, 'stage directions' such as (she said in joking manner...) This thread was only meant to be a gentle discussion not anything too heavy so I hope I don't cause too much indignation with people misreading one another! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 03:18 PM Just seen the joke link...haha, thought it was funny! Chill everyone, life's too short for men and women to do without one another! Blooming heck it would be so boring! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Susanne (skw) Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM Peace, if Tim is entitled to his opinion (and you, of course), why am I not entitled to mine? Though I should have put a little :-), as I was amused, not annoyed by your predictable reactions. But I agree, let's bury that particular debate and return Rockhen's thread to its original purpose. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM Mark Twain was asked what would men be without women. "Mighty scarce" HE HE I blame the Rockhen,not only does she start discusions that lead to arguements, she dresses up as Brittany Spears for charity gigs! Its the pleated skirt and knee socks that do it for me Please dont hit me one more time wokky! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: John Routledge Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:24 PM As indtimated by Diva earlier traditionally all songs were sung by both men and women. Something seems to have changed :0) |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:53 PM "as I was amused, not annoyed by your predictable reactions." Condescending, aren't you? |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:59 PM You use language intended to put people down--slag because a guy says something that hits a sensitive spot in the psyche, and then drift off with a cute little remark. "you must be feeling pretty insecure" No, not at all. But I think you are because you seem to take pleasure in putting guys down for sensitivities they do have. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. I too am entitled to mine. I see nothing predictable about yours, however. "But I agree, let's bury that particular debate and return Rockhen's thread to its original purpose." Like to be the in-charge person, huh? You got it. Let the thread continue with skw's permission. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:52 PM Tim the Twangler...behave yourself and stop telling fibs! The 'gear' was not my suggestion and is not going to happen! I would scare too many people...and as you know, the song was not my idea, either! Back, to the thread...!I am going to look at the content of the songs I have written and think whether any of them could have been written by a man and then I will read the copies of your songs and see if any of them could've been written by a woman!...Fair enough, do u reckon, Twangy? Mind you, I am not sure if it is really that important! One thing most people who have posted on here share, is the lack of being indifferent, (is that a double negative, Peace?!) so here's to diversity! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:59 PM Sorry, Rockhen. And to you, too, Susanne. Just the AH part of me that has to escape now and then. I think that some songs--example of Mitchell's "Clouds" comes to mind--are patently 'female'. I don't know that many men could have reached that part of the 'self' back in those days. Today, however, it might be different. I know that one song I wrote is sung both by a few guys and a few gals. It's a love song of sorts. In that instance it works from either 'perspective'. The thread is a good one because it does ask a real humdinger of a question. I'd be interested in hearing more from folks. And I promise to behave. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:02 PM Susanne, I meant the apology. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:09 PM I have to admit to being useless at remembering half the songs that people refer to on here so I am at a disadvantage when it comes to commenting on specific songs. I will search for the song and look at the lyrics of it for a start, anyway! Interesting that you mention the idea of men, today, being maybe more able to reach "that part of the'self'". Do you think that is true or that they maybe are less afraid of being laughed at if they express their true emotions to others, than men of previous generations...? Hey if we aren't careful, we'll all be crying on each other's shoulders and talking about our emotions to excess! Come back Twangy, say something flippant and funny and keep things 'light'! LOL! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST,W-O-M-A-N Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:19 PM I've got a twenty dollar gold piece say there ain't nuttin' I can't do I can make a dress out of a feedbag, 'n make a man outta you! Flippant and light? How about when Raquel Welch and Miss Piggy sang "I'm a Woman" on Sesame Street? They ended it with a bump and grind chorus, and Raquel Welch breathing, "Double-you Oh" (biiiiggggg pause) and Miss Piggy, " P-I-G." Priceless! PS: I am a woman who is posting this. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:25 PM Whoops..Is 'Clouds' an album title? |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:29 PM Don't answer that, just discovered that it is, doh! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: BOTH SIDES NOW (Joni Mitchell) From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:39 PM Dang. I said "Clouds" and had meant to say "Both Sides Now". Rows and floes of angel hair And ice cream castles in the air And feather canyons ev'rywhere I've looked at clouds that way But now they only block the sun They rain and snow on ev'ryone So many things I would have done But clouds got in my way I've looked at clouds from both sides now From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds at all Moons and Junes and Ferris wheels The dizzy dancing way you feel As ev'ry fairy tale comes real I've looked at love that way But now it's just another show You leave 'em laughing when you go And if you care, don't let them know Don't give yourself away I've looked at love from both sides now From give and take, and still somehow It's love's illusions I recall I really don't know love at all Tears and fears and feeling proud To say I love you right out loud Dreams and schemes and circus crowds I've looked at life that way But now old friends are acting strange They shake their heads, they say I've changed Well something's lost, but something's gained In living ev'ry day I've looked at life from both sides now From win and lose and still somehow It's life's illusions I recall I really don't know life at all I've looked at life from both sides now From up and down, and still somehow It's life's illusions I recall I really don't know life at all |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:52 PM And, IMO, that is one helluva song. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 07 Nov 05 - 03:53 AM Why be flip for the sake of it? My songs to generalise are about feelings and emotions but I am a guy so maybe people dont notice that.I think my song about child prostitution is quite emotional,but perhaps because I am a chap it doesnt count,after all men are the rapists and murderers are they not? African people were the victims of slavery and white males the evildoers who enslaved them. Of course that is black and white thinking and to suggest any other shades of gray in the story would be distasteful,racist,sexist not pc etc But we all know that not all those who use kids as money earning sex toys are men,but there are so many reasons why a woman involved in this disgusting trade was forced too do it by financial pressures or the idea that it was reallly the best they could do for their own children. And of course slvery didnt exist in Northern Africa until it was taken there by the europeans. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM This is "Back home on the Farm" I listened to a BBC world service report and they interveiwed a child who had ended up in the sex trade being sold to men in the so called civilized, or some times advanced nations of Europe. They interveiwed the parents,extended families and even some of the perpetraters who had been caught. The impression I was left with was that none of the officials of the countries where this child was kidnapped and those where they were forced to "work" were really that bothered by their plight. After all there was a profit being made and foriegn income to their coffers. But I digress is this a womans song or a mans? Stolen from my parents farm By an ugly man in a rusty car He drove for hours we went so far He locked me in a room He brought his friends to see his trophy Many of them paid to have me Made me sick made me sore I never had a man before Took me on a mighty jet plane Far across a sparkling ocean To a land I never knew Another room without a view Many men ten or twenty Every day even Sunday Other children here with me Sometimes we would cry Now the needles seem so friendly Bring me back my loving family For a while I can be Back home on the farm There the summer sun is shining There my dog for me is pining There is where I want to be With the other me. There the summer sun is shining Stolen childhood days are dying There is where I want to be With the real me. I have performed this once in a local Pub. There was a shocked hush around the place ,one startled burst of laughter was breifly heard,embarrassment? Maybe but soon choked of by the angry stares from the other patrons. Mostly men BTW. I think it does carry my emotions at hearing the graphic account of a child as a peice of meat and source of income but they are a guys emotions,and that I cant avoid. Is it a womans song or a mans though? I should have been comfortably flippant I know but hey I am a nasty aggressive man. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Gurney Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM (Stage direction: Chuckle.) Perhaps, Rockhen, you should write a song about a hairdresser, non gender-specific. At least, then, you could work up the sort of intro that Vin Garbutt would use, based on this thread and your original observations. Cyril Tawney wrote a moving song apparently sung by an abandoned, pregnant woman, in the first person. 'Bitter-Sweet Bed.' Just an observation. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:08 AM Speakin' of which: Joni Mitchell's birthday today. Happy Birthday, Joni. Love your music and thanks for helping me up when I fell down the stairs. You always were a class act. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:35 AM Twangy, I have heard you sing the song you mentioned and I thought it was a powerful one. Not a 'man's' or 'woman's' song, just a great one. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Bunnahabhain Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:55 AM Personal observations and opinions here, so don't shout too loud if you disagree. There are a small number of first person songs that really do demand to be sung by one sex or the other, mainly women. There is a much, much larger number of such songs that are easier to make work if sung by one sex. A reasonable performer of one sex might be able to make it work, but it would take a really good one of the other sex to do so. Any collection (ie an album or evenings worth, not two songs) of songs on the same subject, from similar perspectives will seem boring, unless they are good songs, and selected very carefully. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:02 AM One point occurred to me, in the past I used to try consciously not to write in a sentimental style. It is only since I have co-written some songs with a friend(male) and played along on another bloke's songs (haha you know who you are!) that I have allowed myself to write in a way that is sometimes perhaps more emotional. These days I don't worry about expressing my feelings as much although I am still wary of revealing too much of my deepest thoughts in my songs... I suppose that is a bit sad, really. Or is it just self-preservation in case you say something you shouldn't, reveal too much or hurt someone, if they happen to hear a song which is obviously connected to them? Maybe, as you get more confident and hopefully(?!) more mature, you feel more able to be more open. Sometimes, writing a song can be almost like a cleansing process or have a healing effect, if something disturbs or upsets you.Other times it can be a way of getting a point or principle over. Sometimes, you tell a story, other times you have a laugh at yourself or try to amuse others for a minute or two, by your observations of life. Maybe you write a song for someone you love or about someone or something you can't stand. Whatever the reason for a song, it is always individual to you, I guess, whether you are male or female. It is interesting when you hear a song that you know already, being sung by someone of the opposite sex to the original version. Often, I think, it seems to make more of a difference to the song than if covered by a person of the same sex as the original version. Not necessarily a difference in either a negative, or positive, way, it just means you notice that the song is different more if the singer is of the opposite sex to the original vocalist. Sometimes, I think it makes you listen to the words more carefully, maybe in a conscious attempt to see if it still 'works' as a song? I don't know...just pondering and woffling on aloud! |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Rockhen Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:11 AM I agree with Bunnahabhain that "Any collection (ie an album or evenings worth, not two songs) of songs on the same subject, from similar perspectives will seem boring, unless they are good songs, and selected very carefully." It can be very easy to write in a similar style about similar subjects and become stuck in a rut. That is just one of the many good reasons for listening to as many other perfomers play live as possible as it can help you avoid becoming to introspective. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: frogprince Date: 07 Nov 05 - 03:23 PM Tim, I consider that a great lyric. A man's song, or a woman's song? I can "hear" at least a couple of male singers I know doing it, and definitely at least a couple of woman singers. If I saw the lyric without a name attached, I suspect that I would bet a nickle (not a dime) that it was written by a woman. That says more about me, and some remaining tendency in me to think in stereotypes, than it says about you. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Susanne (skw) Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:22 PM Tim, your song says more or less what I would expect to feel in that child's place. Some feelings aren't gender-specific after all, but a matter of decency (or the absence of). Thank you. Peace, thank you too, but I don't think an apology on your part was called for (and I notice the regrettable absence of the term from my own posting ...). I won't hijack this thread again by explaining what provoked my reaction (too long a story), but maybe we'll meet some day and can talk it over. Apart from a very few lapses :-), I think this is a great thread! Oh, and Tim's song reminded me of Eric Bogle's 'At Risk'. Though the perspective is from the outside, it conveys very chillingly the situation of abused children. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:47 PM Susanne, you are very gracious. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Tim theTwangler Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:39 AM Cheers for kind comments been a good discusion aint it? |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: NormanD Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:45 AM What about songs that have to be sung by men AND women together? One I can think of is John Prine's "In Spite Of Ourselves", a duet by him and Iris Dement. It's a little romantic-comic-drama song, a film theme tune. It's one of those country duets: he sings, she sings. One of her memorable verses is: "He ain't got laid in a month of Sundays / Caught him once, sniffing my undies...." Any other duets like this anyone knows of? Noman |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM There are some typical folk songs I would call female, which I sing nevertheless because they are so beautiful, e.g. The Blue Stork, or another one a typical song from the spinning room: [Translated from the German] Catherine, dont trust a soldier. They will seduce you, you will loose your honour; really, believe it ... Where is the soldier who has seduced you? He has marched off, is billeted far in the capital, and has forgotten you. Having served my time, and knowing exactly what soldiers want I thought it appropriate to sing this song not only in the bathtub, but also in the presence of my two lovely daughters. I think it doesn't matter whether a song is "male" or "female", as long it is only good. Singing a fine song of the opposite gender you might account for Brecht's concept of "alienation". A fine definition it is for Susanne (skw): gracious. How right you are. Meet her at the next Eurogathering. |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: GUEST,Obie Date: 09 Nov 05 - 05:54 AM Rita MacNeil wrote "Working Man" and it is probably her biggest hit. Rita has always championed womens right to equality, but she certainly wrote and sings this great song from a mans perspective. Obie |
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Subject: RE: 'Men's Songs' or 'Women's Songs'?! From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM Parenthetically, when women aren't free, neither are men. |
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