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Rantipool

GUEST,Raggytash 03 Nov 05 - 04:56 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 05:18 AM
Mark Dowding 03 Nov 05 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 03 Nov 05 - 05:45 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 05:50 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 05:59 AM
Cod Fiddler 03 Nov 05 - 06:08 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 06:15 AM
Paul Burke 03 Nov 05 - 06:54 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 07:19 AM
Paul Burke 03 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Redhorse at work 03 Nov 05 - 08:41 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 08:46 AM
Flash Company 03 Nov 05 - 09:27 AM
Snuffy 03 Nov 05 - 09:27 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 03 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 03 Nov 05 - 11:40 AM
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Subject: Rantipool
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 04:56 AM

This morning looking through old song words I came across a word that has puzzled me for years. In the song "Best O' Bunch" as performed way back by the Oldham Tinkers the songs starts

This world's just like a rantipool
it's nowt but up's and down's
I've found it mostly down mesen
I'm used to fortunes frowns
our folk were all tarred with same brush
they were either bad or wicked
I was t'only one as were any good
folk reckoned as they bickered ......... Ooooooooooo

What on Earth is a rantipool or have I misheard something


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:18 AM

A rantipool, rantipole, rantipoll or rantipol is a wild and exuberant young person, given to leaping about and bumping into things. No idea of the eytmology...they probably rant a lot, but what the pole is I've no idea.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:33 AM

Harry Boardman used to recite this as a poem - which is how Harvey Kershaw wrote it in the first place - and he used to say Ranty Powl and explained it as a "twisted pole"

There's about another 6 verses in the original!

Cheers
Mark


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:45 AM

Thanks for that Lad's, I've got all the verses (I think) but despite several forays into various dictionaries I have never found this word. I think on consideration Mark's explanation is more likely in the context of the song words


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:50 AM

The distinctive feature of a rantipole's behaviour is that he or she jumps up and down; that explains the reference in the poem. You will find the word in big dictionaries, it is mainly 18/19th century slang I think.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:59 AM

Don't be confused by the modern sense of rant as shout or speak angrily. The old sense is defintely "jump up and down". The "rant" dancestep (with its assorted tunes like Morpeth Rant) is distinctive for the way it includes hops. If you watch someone dancing with a rant step, you will see their head bobbing up and down in a distinctive manner. That is what the world is doing in the poem.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:08 AM

There's a Rantipole Lane, near Annscroft in Shropshire. I always loved the name and wondered what it meant. The wonders of Mudcat! Thank you Greg.

Richard.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:15 AM

I was perhaps being a little over-coy in my previous post. There may be people reading this who are not country-dancers, and can't quite visualise a rant step.So I should also point out that "riding rantipole" is a slang expression for performing one's marital obligations with the lady on top. Visualise the motion involved: that is what the world is doing in the poem.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:54 AM

I always understood a rantipole to be a see-saw.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:19 AM

That is very interesting, Paul. I can see that a word meaning "seesaw" could easily change meaning and became "person going up and down as if on a seesaw". But can you find any references to the "seesaw" meaning? Or is it conceivably something you have dreamed up yourself?
   I have had a glance in my own dictionary, and googled on a couple of entries, but everything I have seen has been in the rumbustious, jumping up and down area: no seesaws. I must have another browse.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

Well, it's one of those things I've "always" known. But here's from a discussion on rootsweb.com, result of a quick google:

From: "robert.davies4"
Subject: [OEL] Rantipole
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:16:39 +0100

>Sarah wrote:
>Well it looks like my cunning plan to introduce a little educational
>diversity into the list, as suggested by Our Glorious Listowner Judith,
>has gan slightly agley! However, the delightful combination of wit and
>imagination more than makes up for the sorry lack of more academic
>solutions ... ;-))


Hi Sarah
Oh dear, was this meant to be serious?
Better add "a seesaw" and "The wild carrot" to the definition, then,
according to Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary. Honest.

Regards

Bob


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:00 AM

Very interesting. So, I wonder when the seesaw meaning was in use? More research needed here.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:41 AM

Presumably "pole" is "poll" as in head

nick


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:46 AM

Well, I would have thought poll as in head, but Paul Burke has thrown up this curious reference to a "seesaw" meaning, so perhaps we are looking at a "pole for going up and down on"? I want to see chapter and verse for an early "seesaw" usage. I am not entireely clear why rantipole also means the wild carrot(Queen Ann's Lace) plant. Plants are not normally famous for jumping up and down, or behaving badly, or preaching loudly at people. All very curious.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Flash Company
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:27 AM

Remember the word as being presented to the late Frank Muir for definition in 'Call my Bluff' on TV. Apparently the OED definition is a whirl-pool. Unfortunately, I don't have the OED to check it.

FC


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:27 AM

If you ride a see-saw your head will go up and down, so "-pole" could still mean head, Greg.

Just a guess about the wild carrot, but maybe its foliage "nods" in the breeze


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM

Well, the Shorter Oxford doesnt have "seesaw" or "whirlpool", just the usual badly-behaved, rumbustious kid sort of stuff. And no "wild carrot" either, though that is definitely correct usage as it is in plant books. The OED, alas, is inaccessible to me without going to a large library.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM

I thought I'd checked the Shorter OED some years ago, I'll have another look tonight when I get home


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM

WEll, you've started a fine hunt here, Raggytash.


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Subject: RE: Rantipool
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 11:40 AM

Didn't I just, it's word that has puzzled me for years and I'm very grateful to everyone who has contributed so far, out with the OED when I get home. I've asked dozens of folkies over the years since I learn this song way back in the 70's and until today no-one has had a clue

Cheers

Raggy


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