What to pay the band members?

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 09:10 PM

This is probably one of our best threads for discussing the kind of issues that come up, or should be anticipated, by any aspiring band.

Things really get out of balance, in my opinion, when one member fronts all the money and provides all the managerial functions. And more bands implode because of that.

In any bands there are major players and passengers. It is wise to recognize all.

I urge new forming bands to read this thread carefully, and be as generous to current and former band members as is possible. In reality there is very little pie to quibble over.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM

I should know better than to use a technical legal term with a copyright lawyer around! OK, so "performance right" isn't "copyright", but am I correct in thinking the effect is much the same? The consent of the performer (unless they've signed their right away) is required before you can issue a recording to the public - or have I got that wrong too?

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:38 PM

Guest Bob brought this thread back and asked a new question about "tribute band musicians" and paying them.

Recent answers are confusing the old and new questions. Would it be possible/sensible to split the threads.

It always amazes me when people carefully answer ancient questions.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 10:44 AM

Interesting to see this old thread resurrected. What I do now for all 3 ShoreGrass CDs is this: if I sell a CD at a gig (for $15) and someone who performs on that CD is playing with us at the gig, they get $2 for each one sold. The rest stays with me. So if all five recording artists are performing with us that night, $10 goes to the artists (including me and Frank) and the remaining $5 goes (to me) for expenses (which almost covers expenses).

Have not heard any complaints, and the musicians on the recordings are happy to have a stake in sales for gigs they play with us. If they are not playing the gig with us (band members come and go), they get nothing for those sales. And I'm happy that I don't have to keep track of former band members in perpetuity to dole out these sums.

Oh, and I gave each recording artist 10 CDs right after I received the first short-run from the duplicator.

This issue is still relevant to me because I'm planning to start working on a new project with many more musicians on the album. I plan to again give each one 10 CDs and royalty for each one sold at a gig they perform with us. Several will likely never perform with us, and several will otherwise never have a recording of their own music, so this is a pretty good prospect all around.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 07:57 AM

No, Howard. Performers' rights under part II of the (UK) Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 are not copyrights.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:08 AM

hi

Many years ago we were in a similar position and I was advised to join the Musicians Union. I did and we were given great advice and much assistance in setting things out in an agreed manner which the other members signed into.

I found this membership to be very useful on other occasions when we had problems with some venues in getting paid the rates that we had agreed and sometimes we were refused any payment at all.

In most cases just threatening to bring in the Union solved the problem.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:58 AM

keep things simple.

If it's very much a "lead singer" + associates type project, which by the sounds of it is the situation in the OP, then paying people a flat fee seems sensible.

If it's an "all in this together" proper band, then keep a band kitty: put all "profits" (which probably aren't really profits anyway) back into that.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:42 AM

I'm assuming the amounts of money involved are likely to be fairly small. If other musicians feel they're being short-changed or excluded, it's more likely that their feelings have been hurt rather than the money.

My limited understanding of copyright, as it applies in the UK, is that a performer owns the copyright in their performance. You cannot therefore use their performance without their specific consent. Legalities aside, if these musicians are still your friends, then you shouldn't want to do anything to upset them. If they're no longer friends, the same applies - things could get really messy if they take umbrage!

Of course, if the amounts of money are significant, then you definitely need legal advice and proper agreements drawn up.

When my band recently made a CD we all contributed equally to the cost and we are sharing equally in the proceeds. I did the bulk of the project management and admin, mainly because I had time on my hands, but didn't take anything extra for it. neither did other band members for the non-musicial assistance they gave - we regarded it as a project for the whole band. However it is important to sort these things out at the start, no matter how reluctant the others may be to discuss it.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: stallion
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:14 AM

intersesting position to be in , earning money from the cd's, our money goes to financing the next one!

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:25 AM

You mean the band members signed up to on contracts that failed to provide for how their pay was to be calculated?   I don't think I much like your business model.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:41 AM

Novel concept...Musicians being paid? Doesn't happen in the UK.

Subject: tribute band musicians
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:20 AM

Hey i have a question, hopefully some answers come about. We have a tribute band, no one wanted to sign the contract with our booking agent. so I, being the leader of the band/ lead singer, signed. made this band a business with me the "ceo". They are now technically hired musicians. what is the best way to pay them? AFTER the booking agent is paid? ( expenses, deductions, commission?) gross? net? any comments, opinions welcome..

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:37 AM

One imperial pint (of their choice) each hour.

And a 5 note each hour.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

All tip gathered in a hat, guitar-case, or jar....are the property of the "leader," "organizer," "spear-head," that expidited the gig. "Jar-collections" should never be distributed amonst the band....to do so...lowers the professional status of a skill craftsman....to that of a panne-kake waitress.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

In many locations "non-union" command more tarrif than the "boss-leader's-crew." They don't require "kick-backs" they frequently play without breaks. Because it is not a "union gig" BOTH the audience and performers have more fun.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Gypsy
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 11:11 PM

Communication is all, and no, you are not stirring up a tempest. Best to thrash these things out at the pennies stage, rather than when it (hopefully!) is serious money. We are working on a CD for our trio. Off the top will come the cost of the CD. Then there will be a donation for our homestudio, which we paid all the freight on. The rest will be split twixt the 3 of us. Presumably, forever. We all worked on it.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:04 PM

The first record I ever worked on was with Lui Collins as a Fretless release from Phylo records. I was co pruducer and played on maybe 1/3rd of the thing , Well it was #1 folk album in Vermont and new England the year we made it and it quickly went over to the main Phylo lable .Still being produced !! Non of us had any idea at the time and Lui very kindly took care of us all as the sales chugged along over the years.It was very informal but we were all very good freinds (and still are ). I hope you have that kind of problem to deal with with your releases .. Some problems are worth the trouble espeicialy around freindships !! !! All the besst , Guy

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 04:08 PM

When we formed a band some years ago we divied up the expenses and revenue fairly evenly. However, when it came to producing our first CD we decided that it made more sense to formally incorporate and address all the questions of expenses and revenue as members of a Corporate Board. No individual owns a share of the CD's, nor the sound system, or any other assets we have accumulated, other than our individual instruments. If we begin accumulating a bank account we treat ourselves to dinner, declare a dividend, buy more equipment, or invest in a new CD. We pay a recording engineer for his services and regularly reimburse members for expenses relating to our musical enterprises. And the corporation pays its taxes.

If someone leaves the group, they're no longer a member of the Board and have no claim on the Board's assets. If someone joins the group, after surviving the breaking-in period, he/she is invited to join the Board and then have an equal voice in what we do.

This works for us. It may not work for you.

However, we are also aware of other groups that have fallen apart because of individual ownership issues, and generally unbalanced ownership issues. One person puts up the lion's share of the money for recording, or one person puts in the lion's share of the creative work, or the lion's share of management...When the lion's no longer happy...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 03:25 PM

Wrote the note and got back a positive response from one --in fact he encouraged me to put out the CD and offered to help with expenses! The other former member is incommunicado, which is a common condition there. I think I'm going ahead with it.

I'm using several pieces of ideas I've heard above, including Susan-Marie's doling out half the copies of the cd to each band member and then using the rest to offer for sale, with proceeds to the production guy (me). I also liked Cap't Bob's idea of giving a portion of each cd sold at gigs to the current band when doing benefits. And for the future, Kaleea's idea of splitting earnings among the band members plus the manager, which will shut me up and make me feel less taken for granted. And Mick's "honorable" remark is what finally got me off the fence and moving.

Looking this over, I sound so mercenary, which is ironic considering the tiny sums I'm talking about. Doth I protest too much?

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM

The band I've been with for a great number of years plays mainly for fun. We do a quite a few performances to benefit various groups (no money there), however, we usually recover some of our expenses by selling a few cd's. Any money we make from cd sales is divided equally among current band members even it they were not involved in making the cd. I feel it is only fair since doing a benefit is an expense for the performers whether or not they were involved in making the cd.
        Only one member of our band involved in making the cd has moved away and could care less since there isn't any great amount of money involved.
        I suppose if you are playing to make money it would be advisable to have some type of contract agreed to by all members involved in making the cd.   
Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:31 AM

I'm back working on the note...

Lots of good ideas here and much to consider next time with the current band. For sure, it's a good idea to get it all understood beforehand, so the experience has definitely been educational. Trouble is, when we get together for rehearsals or gigs, no one wants to talk business --including me. We're really in this for the music, and then afterwards I'm running around trying to get the business end straightened out ALONE, except for my trusted mudcat advisors!! Thanks, guys!!

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:12 AM

Seems to me that if the notice wasn't explicit, then permission wasn't given. It is one thing to say that it is being recorded (for posterity, as an example), and quite another if one indicates it is being recorded for use in a future CD, in which case one would get a disclaimer signed. Another wrinkle is that they may have known that it was being recorded for one use (say as a fundraiser for a local organization) when it is now being used as a for sale item to create a profit for an individual.

It just seems that the honorable thing to do is fairly obvious. No one is going to get rich off this project, but there are protocols that should be followed. "Shoe on the other foot" is a good bone to chew on this one. What would you want done if you were in the other position.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:05 AM

Well, I started composing a note to the two band members to negotiate their sign-off, after reading Big Mick's comments. But I'm having another thought here: the night of the concert, we all went into it knowing that it was being recorded for a possible future CD, so didn't they actually give their permission then to use their voices for a "for sale" CD?

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST,Susan-MArie
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:48 AM

We used the "split the CDs approach" and it worked well. One band member has a home studio so he did all the production work. WE used gig proceeds to pay for the CDs and artwork. We pressed 1000 CDs. 500 were doled out among the band members to do with as they wished - give away or sell. The guy who did all the production work (hours and hours and hours of it) is getting all the proceeds of selling the other 500 CDs, as compensation for his time. We're all very happy with the arrangement - maybe it could work for you. The key factor I guess is that none of us is in this for the money, and we appreciated all the work the producer put into the CD. Good luck.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:29 AM

Unfortunately, Barbara, in the circumstance you describe you are going to have to approach the other two and negotiate something. You do not have their permission to use their voices for a "for sale" CD. Perhaps they would just sign off, in which case a disclaimer would be called for. You should be able to negotiate something.

In general, the right advice has been given. Either of two methods could be used. In my band we split everything 5 ways, including the tasks to be done. In the next year I will do a solo CD. I will utilize some studio musicians who will be paid on a one time basis.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:34 AM

I've been paid as little as a copy of the cd for loaning instruments for others to play, mandolin and autoharp specifically, because the musicians didn't have their own. (Was stiffed once by an artist who I'd rather not be known for playing with anyway.) Usually I get paid in cash what I negotiate, a copy of the product, and future considerations. Years ago one small market gospel release with a very kind and generous thank you in the liner notes got me enough referrals to make it worth my while.

For shared projects, ie where I actually have artistic input and decisions (writing, arranging, production) or am a band member, I get a percentage of the profits. With one duo I'm in, the other guy gets a bit more than me because he provides the recording gear and looks after most of the business details, but even then I get about 40%.

The exception is when I play as a favour for friends.

For complete strangers, depending on time, expenses and travel, anywhere from $100 to $200 per day up.

For what it's worth.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:31 AM

Don't work with a band is the simple answer! The old singers didn't need bands, for God's sake!

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:20 AM

Lots of things to think about here. Our band is just a small scale, low budget operation and the CD was done originally just for a keepsake. We all chipped in for the studio costs, which are the "expenses" I paid back from sales. But no one has any particular ambition and we would not have that cd or do another one if I didn't push it. I'm the only one who would know how or attempt to do the graphics and cd burning and other techie or business things. Mostly the guys just like to play, as do I.

So I wanted to find a fair way to keep the projects moving along (my interest, not necessarily their) while also cutting down on some of the busywork that falls to me by default. Contracts seem way too formal for this loose organization. Calling them session players or studio musicians seems to take the camaraderie and friendship out of it. I'm not expecting any great profits, hopefully enough to cover expenses, but you never know.

Here's why this issue comes up now: I have resurrected a live recording of a concert we did 2 years ago and I want to release it as a CD. Two of the people on that recording are no longer with the band but have been replaced by two new guys. How do I work getting this thing out there and whom do I pay and how much? The original guys got paid for the gig where it was recorded, and I paid the sound guy to do the recording. I'm paying the duplicators and I did the graphics myself and created the master from the original one long track. When the copies arrive, how do I dole them out? Who gets what money if I sell any? Ideas still most welcome!

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: jonm
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 03:22 AM

Two approaches I have been involved in:

1) All musicians are fully involved in recording the CD - costs are shared and so are GROSS proceeds. Band members involved in producing or with creative / writing credits take extra shares in the proceeds. All are fully involved and are committed to sales of the CD in future, since they get a cut. This arrangement needs to continue in perpetuity, even if members leave the band. You need a contract to protect all parties.

2) It's one person's project - they stump up all the initial investment and pay contributing musicians either a fee or a cut of the NET proceeds. People who think they are in a band may resent being session musicians and have little incentive to promote the recording. You need a contract to protect all parties.

Contracts do not require lawyers. The basic contract requires two elements - what are the obligations of the parties and what considerations to they get for fulfilling them. More sophisticated contracts also determine what happens if parties do not fulfil their obligations. So long as the wording is kept simple and everyone signs it, job done.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: C-flat
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM

It seems clear to me that your band members are just that. You pay all the recording expenses therefore you benefit from future sales. Anyone contributing to the recording should be paid for their work by the day/hour, as is usual in the studio.

Most musicians would prefer a clear cut, simple arrangement and money in their hand, rather than a promise of a share of future sales anyway (unless you're the triangle player on the latest Rolling Stones album!), but I do believe that they should be paid at the time of the work carried out.

Your comment about paying them "after expenses are covered" seems wrong to me. These musicians are surely part of the expenses of the production, to treat them differently suggests they would be more entitled to a royalty payment and you'll find yourself back where you were with the last C.D.

If your band thought that they were making an album then they would be sharing the work-load and costs as a band, and opening a joint account to distribute any future money received.

Good luck

C-flat.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: BlueSage
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:40 AM

Call a meeting with the band members and ask for their input.

If you are putting up the money and most of the work for the CD, the other band members might be happy with a set amount up front and the extra gigs the CD will generate for them. If they want a cut of the profits, they might be willing to front their share of the money (and work) it takes to produce the CD.

If you can't come to some sort of consensus within the band, cut the CD under your own name and hire some of the band members (if they're still talking to you) to play on the CD. It's hard work being the band leader and the other members of the band will have no idea just how hard until they've done it themselves!

Mike Iverson
Blue Sage Trio

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: open mike
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:03 AM

i have heard that the going rate for royalties/commission
for using a song, for instance that was written by someone else
is $80 per 1,000 discs made--or 8 cents per disc $.08.

perhaps there would be something like this involved if
someone's work was included on a disc and someone made
money each time a disc was sold? or the studio musicians
might be paid according to how many copies of the recording
were going to be made and/or sold?

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 10:51 PM

This is actually a good question. I don't think Barbara Shaw was putting herself above the other band members, but what she was saying is that the others came in and did their thing musically while the CD was being made - sang or played their instruments - the artistic part (as did Barbara) but that she was doing all or most of the grunt work. In that case, I believe the double cut suggested by Kaalea might be a good solution. The tasks she described are time consuming and can be tedious and warrant, I think, some extra remuneration.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 08:20 PM

Speaking candily: My first cd (1998)sold out on 1000 copies I got and I had to buy 500 more; to date it cost $6,000.00 to make and manufacture the profit has been about $3,000.00 so $2.00 profit per unit .. YAHOO . I guess that would be something if I sold 50,000 units . So the other thing to look at is how many units you are thinking you will sell . Under 5,000 units Im shore everyone would be fine wih a fixed monitary reanbursment . THe real money comes in the 10's of thousands sales . On the whole , the reason we make CD's is to get the music out there.Learning and promotion are the first reasons and profits may be an extra and most likely farther down the road.
                         All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:58 PM

Lots of studio musicians get a fixed wadge for their work on a new project . This can be dicey waters though amoung friends in a middle level band that dose not have much of a budjet. Ive paid $500.00 to $1500.00 on low level CD's that were interesting and everyone was happy . ( $500.00 for a fiddle player on 1/3 the tracks . On nights work .Interesting cd he was happy . I gave him 15cd's as well) . $1500.00 to the Recorder player who also trasposed and helped me produce the cd who played on every track .He got top billing at least .!25 cs..   He should have gotten more but we were both interested in making this cd happen .(Thankfully Brian's my Brother-in-law ). I produced and played 1/2 the cd and did not pay myself because I really was invested in the prodject happening . So one of my favorite projects I made no money on .Ive bought over 250 of the cd's from the organization that paid for it for resale . I am very glad the CD is out in the world though and the Litchfield Historical So got a great CD at a very low price. What one calls a "Win Win "situation. .
            Lots of bands making an "Independent CD"split the costs into the number of players and then buy the cd's and split the cd's . (Four players 1000 cd's everyone gets 250 ). This is easy because everyone has the same amount invested in the project. If you are good at selling your portion of the cd's you can get more out of your pocket money and the profits are on the plate of the one doing the work and buying more cd's .If you want to give away cd's to your friends you then dont feel guilty about it !!! Everyone can also put a % of their CD's into tha box for selling at gigs and then everyone splits the nights cd proccedds . The same idea of a % from each for promo cd's to club owners .But starting from everyone having the cd's they bought keeps the whole think feeling clean and having the correct boundries.
             On many levels the making of the cd is such a learning experience that the making can be enouph of a reason for some band menbers to go to the studio. If you pay for the cd they get the practice you take the chances and so you get the profit ..
                     Also you play on my project Ill play on yours is popular among like minded musicians .
            I have played on lots of projects for the learning Ive gotten from being in a new studio . WARNING RECORING IS ADDICTIVE !
          If everyone is in agreement anyone of these plans is workable,
            Now lets talk micraphones !!!
            See you at NOMAD , all the best Guy

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:44 PM

Are you a soloist with backup Musicians? Are you a member of an ensemble, aka: Band? Sometimes when one member of a group, aka: Band, is considered by all to be the business manager, that member accepts remuneration as an extra percentage. For example, if there were four members of the ensemble, then the profits on the CD might be split 5 ways with the business manager accepting 1/5 as a performer and 1/5 as the business manager.
   Each member of the ensemble should have an equal voice in how all business matters are handled. If they do not, perhaps the Musicians other than yourself should be under contract else they might sue you for future profits on CD sales, even when they are no longer performing with you. If you think of yourself too highly to be equal to the other members of the ensemble, perhaps you need to rethink the ensemble.

Subject: RE: What to pay the band members?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:25 PM

Sounds like a question about the length of string - what is fair is whatever everybody is happy with.

You seem to be regarding the other band members as session musicians for your recording. If that is how they see themselves then pay them appropriately. If they see the band as a partnership then you must negotiate

Subject: What to pay the band members?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 07:00 PM

We made a recording a few years ago and I made all the studio arrangements and paid all the expenses, keeping track of everything. I also did all artwork for the cd, printing, scoring, folding and packaging of the cd, cd burning, booking, publicity, and took in all the proceeds from CD sales, keeping the books, etc. As we sold a few CDs, I reimbursed each band member for any expenses, and then eventually gave a fixed amount to each one every time a cd was sold. Two members who were on the original cd are no longer with the band and I no longer feel obligated to give them a cut of each future cd sold, but I still do it for the one other guy who remains (Frank and I don't count).

Needless to say this is a nightmare of detail and piles of work for me.

My question is this: what's a fair way to pay band members for participation on a NEW cd? I'm thinking about a flat amount up front for each one, paid after expenses are covered, and then I just keep the rest as producer and copyright holder. That would get me out of the endless royalty-paying business and paperwork and it might also eventually repay me for my time spent marketing, designing artwork, mailing out copies, etc. But would that be fair, if for example we sold a million copies? (OK, I'm exaggerating to make a point...)

What do other bands do? What's fair? How much? Opinions welcome.

H E L P !!