FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!

Subject: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM

I recently acquired a CD of a gent named Göran Söllscher playing baroque music (Weiss, Pachelbel, Bach, Couperin, etc.) on an 11-string guitar. The cover of the CD reads

Göran Söllscher | eleven-string baroque
and I made the mistaken assumption that Söllscher was playing a baroque guitar. Then it occurred to me that I've seen baroque guitars—smallish, both upper and lower bouts about the same size, not quite as nipped in at the waist as modern guitars, and with five courses (double strings, like a lute or 12-string guitar). Looks like THIS. But the photo in the booklet shows an instrument that looks like a modern guitar with a cutaway, a wide fingerboard (about 3¹/₂ inches at the nut, and eleven single strings. It sounds like a regular classic guitar—until Söllscher gets down on those bass strings, and then

RUMMMMMMBLE!!
The instrument was made by Georg Bolin, a Swedish luthier. Googling through cyberspace reveals that there are a few of these things floating around made by Bolin, and by other luthiers who have copied Bolin's design. I haven't a clue as to what one of these beasts might cost, but I imagine it would run a bit more than a couple of nickels.

I found a picture of one being tuned by a fellow named Odd-Arne Jabobsen (I don't know if "Odd" is part of his name or a descriptive adjective, but that's a whole nother question). Anyway, this is what the critter looks like:   TWANG!!

I'm having a horrible GAS attack!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:27 PM

For the uninitiated: GAS = Guitar Acquisition Syndrome

Basically akin to LUST!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM

Oh, right.

Thought maybe that low bass rumble was moving you.

The brown note.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM

There was a duo, vocal and guitar, several years ago at the Goderich Celtic Roots Festival where the guitarist had a 10 or 11 (ish) string classical guitar. Sounded wonderful, especially for Bach I thought at the time.

Give in to GAS. There is no cure. Resistance is futile.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:04 PM

The gentleman is a porfessional and plays many different guitars, judging by the photos in that directory. Here's an album from a tour in Abu Dhabi.

A

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Mudlark
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:52 PM

AndI think I have trouble with barre chords!

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:23 AM

Was the guy on the Abu Dhabi cover separated at birth from Art Garfunkle?

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:29 AM

Sorry, that guest posting above was me. Must have eaten the cookie. I've eaten all the others in the house tonight.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:03 AM

Fascinating guitar ?? BUT how the Hell do you play the damn thing ? After all , we only have four fingers and a thumb on each hand !
Serious Co-ordination reqired , I would think !

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Nick
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:36 AM

Thread creeping for the GAS junkies.

There are some additional slightly odd guitars under. I especially like the five necked one (how heavy is it? what does the case look like?)though some of the ones on the last link are pretty bizarre and more suited by a siamese triplets or an octopus...

Lots of harp guitars

Confusion between number of fingers and necks

The self tuning guitar

More necks than a tower of giraffes

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:53 AM

The late Narciso Yepes was a tireless promoter of the ten-string guitar. As I understand it, for the most part it is played like a conventional classical guitar, but with added bass strings that are only rarely fretted (harp guitars work this way as well). I admit it looks daunting, but once you get the damn thing in tune, it may not be as great a departure from conventional technique as one might expect.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:28 PM

"but once you get the damn thing in tune"

Uh Huh...... And how long does THAT take ?

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Steve-o
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 02:41 PM

As in the photo, that's exactly what MOST of his time is spent doing!

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 02:47 PM

"If the lutenist lives to the age of sixty years, he will spend forty of those years tuning his instrument." Paul O'Dette, modern lutenist quoting from an old lute manual.

One day some years ago I was in The Rosewood Guitar, a music store in Seattle that handles top-quality classic guitars, and they had a 10-string guitar like the one that Narciso Yepes played. At the time, The Rosewood Guitar was run by Steve Novacek and Gary Bissiri, two fine classic guitarists who did concert tours together and who have a couple of CDs of guitar duets out. Gary is still teaching at The Rosewood Guitar and Steve is now head of the guitar department at the University of Washington School of Music. I find that kinda cute, because when I tried to register there in 1957, The Powers That Be didn't recognize the classic guitar as a legitimate musical instrument (despite the fact that John Williams had done a concert on campus a few months before). Slowly the world moves forward!

In any case, I had a chance to play the 10-string guitar and it was—what can I say? Drool, drool! I don't know what they were asking for it because it wasn't for sale. One of the guys was seriously considering co-opting it for himself. I only played it for a few minutes (they had to wrench it out of my hands), so I don't know all of its characteristics, but as I recall, the four extra bass strings just ran down the scale. Instant drop-D tuning: just play the seventh string, and you still have your sixth string in E. I suspect that if they decided to put it up for sale, they would probably ask around 10 k for it, but that's a guess.

Most Renaissance lutes had six courses (eleven strings; the top string, called a "chanterelle," was single, the rest were double—actually a mandolin, historically, was a small, four-course lute, and it still is!). Then, as time marched on into the Baroque period, they started adding strings (courses) until it verged on the ridiculous. The lute was the standard household instrument (if your household could afford one), much like the piano sitting in the parlor within recent times. When lutes, archlutes, and theorboes got huge and cumbersome, various keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord began replacing them (similar plucked string sound), then, eventually, the piano. The practical limit for strings (courses) on a Baroque lute was probably around ten to thirteen.

The Bolin 11-string that I lust after is fairly obviously a cross between a modern guitar and a Baroque lute. Or the characteristics and capabilities of a Baroque lute (another one) grafted onto a modern guitar. Among other things, a guitar is much easier to hold than a lute. I've tried a few lutes and with that watermelon back, they're a bitch to try to hold in a stable position. Worse than an Ovation guitar. And the Bolin looks to be a lot more rugged and durable than a lute. Compared to most guitars, a lute is actually kinda delicate.   Also, the frets on an authentic lute are not metal bars like the frets on a modern guitar; they are "fret-gut," or gut strings tied around the neck and carefully squiggled into the right position to get the correct pitch. They wear out and have to be replaced periodically. So if changing strings is a pain in the ass, imagine how much fun re-fretting your instrument can be!

But for a singer of older traditional songs—a modern day troubadour—it makes for a great image. . . .

I'm sure the Bolin is out of my league price-wise, but it's fun to think about.

Don Firth

P. S.   As far as playing an 11-string guitar or a Baroque lute, it would be essentially the same as playing a classic guitar. As to the additional basses, "Due to the large number of strings, lutes have very wide necks, and it is difficult to stop strings beyond the sixth course, so additional courses were usually tuned to pitches useful as bass notes rather than continuing the regular pattern of fourths, and these lower courses are most often played without stopping." [From an article on lutes in Wikipedia].

Besides, trying to fret the eleventh string with your thumb might be a bit of a challenge.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM

Love the pics! Thanks. ***and speaking of Harp Guitar, Stephen Bennett is performing in Wichita, Kansas in December, & I'm now living in San Diego. Wow, talk about irony.

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Shiplap Structure3
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:13 PM

Are they any good for slide?

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM

Doubtful. They're all built for nylon strings.

Nylon guitar strings were first made in 1946. It was gut (usually sheep) before that.

Don Firth

Subject: Mudlark I need your help
From: GUEST,yodelking
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 04:22 PM

Howdy Mudlark- My name is Wylie Gustafson.
I have a band called Wylie & the Wild West... www.wyliewebsite.com
We record cowboy songs and folk songs and travel the country.
Our band has been around a while and many of the songs I record are songs my Dad taught me as a kid.
He learned most of his old cowboy and folk songs from the oral tradition... but told me that a few of them came from the IOCA Song Fest book (he no longer has a copy).
I googled the Intercollegiate Outing Clab Association Song Book and came up with a reference to your discussion about the book back in Sept 02.
I understand you have a copy.
I was wondering if it would be possible for you to make a copy of the book for me? I have been searching for the book for years now with no luck.
Anyway, in return of the favor I can send you some of our CDs.
LEt me know if you are interested in helping me.
Happy Trails,
Wylie Gustafson

e-mail: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:50 PM

"He learned most of his old cowboy and folk songs from the oral tradition... but told me that a few of them came from the IOCA Song Fest book (he no longer has a copy).
I googled the Intercollegiate Outing Clab Association Song Book and came up with a reference to your discussion about the book back in Sept 02."

Hi Wylie,

I have a copy of the book.

Don

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:09 AM

Narciso Yepes also used a fourteen string guitar on one of his recordings of JS Bach.

eric

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 05:00 AM

My Dad played what he called Gypsy guitar when he was in Poland. He lived in Byalstok which is quite near the border with the Ukraine so I am not sure if this was a Polish thing a Ukkrainian thing or a Gypsy thing! Anyhow, The guitar he played was 7 string! The extra one being, in note, in the middle and it was tuned to an open chord but I would have to figure out which. The other guitar he mentions though is the 11 string! The one he talks about was tuned just like the 7 and the extra 4 strings, at the top, were only used 'open' as drones. Dunno if this is what the one here is like of course but it is an interesting co-incidence. To me anyway:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 05:02 AM

Oh yes - And interesting it is made by a Swedish luthier - Poland was once ruled by Sweden!

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 02:18 PM

Apparently the 11-string guitar that Georg Bolin built is less an evolution from a Russian 7-string guitar and more an effort to produce a modern instrument with the capabilities of the Baroque lute, which has a lot in common with the Swedish lute (which was what Sven Scholander, Richard Dyer-Bennet's mentor early on, used for song accompaniment).

Cruising through cyberspace, I found the following on an early music forum. Judging from the syntax, this appears to have been posted by someone for whom English is not the first language. I've tidied up some strange spellings, but I left the grammar as is:—

The 11-string Alto Guitar (Alt Gitarr, Altgitarren) was first designed by the Swedish luthier and acoustic researcher Georg Bolin and his friend the Swedish lutenist-guitar player Per-Olof Johnson. They developed a new instrument with a more short neck, but with the 1st to 7th strings with the same length, and the additional basses with different and more longer length. The 1st string is tuned "g" and its length stopped at what would be 3rd fret of Spanish classic guitar.

11-Strings Alto Guitar, (Alt Gitarr) Intonation, (from 1st to 11th strings):   g1-d1-a-f-c-G-F-E#-D-C-B.

With this intonation you can play lute music direct from the tablature. There are other possible tunings developed by different players who tunes the additional bass strings to the key.

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as an "alto guitar," but apparently there is. Must be pretty rare, otherwise, I would have encountered them long before now! The tuning, as far as I've been able to tell by googling, is the same as a regular guitar with a capo on the 5th fret. It would appear that small guitars such as the Tacoma Papoose for sure, and possibly other ¾ length pitch instruments like the Baby Taylor and Mini-Martin would classify as "alto" guitars.

The tuning of the Bolin 11-string, however, is the same as that of a Baroque lute (first string tuned to G above Middle C, with the major third occurring between the 3rd and 4th strings rather than the 2nd and 3rd strings, as it is on the standard guitar). As the above quote says, this means that lute music can be played on this instrument directly from the lute tablature, without having to do any transposing, re-fingering, or any other rearranging.

From time to time I've thought about getting a lute, but after trying a couple, and considering the purely mechanical (non-musical) difficulties the instrument offers, were I to go in that direction, I would trade the cool troubadour image for something a lot more practical, very much like the Bolin. Well—exactly like the Bolin. But having played the guitar for over fifty years (almost never using special tunings, not even dropped-D), I would cheat and tune the third string a half-step higher so all the fingerings would be the same as the guitar.

After all, Ronn MacFarlane of the Baltimore Consort uses nylon strings on his lute rather than the more "authentic" sheep-gut. He said that if he followed the dictates of the early music purists and used gut strings, he'd spend most of his time on stage trying to keep his lute in tune rather than just playing music. So a little modernization serves the cause of music, and that, after all, is what it's all about, n'est-ce pas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: FYI--Unusual Guitar - Most Interesting!!
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 05:36 PM

Don...Thanks for that. I'm gonna look into this. Mooh.