UK Festivals - Future directions?

Subject: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

A few recent messages on another message board generated some questions in my mind about the viability of some of our festivals.

The Lancaster Maritime Festival was going to be cancelled - now it's to continue in 2006, but with reduced funding and cycle of activities. The next National looks like drawing a blank following the loss of its venue. And we all witnessed the difficulties that Sidmouth Folk Week went through (and thankfully survived).

What's up? Is it the same curse that plagues some of the clubs - ageing audiences? But only some of the festivals would be affected by this. Is it that festivals in the UK have become too "grant oriented" and therefore less "lean and mean", as someone in the US claimed to me recently? Or is it something else?

And how can a festival best safeguard its future viability?

I am sure festival organisers are/have been discussing this for some time, but perhaps it would do no harm to air some constructive views here (not the word "constructive" - bashing anyone rightly or wrongly for past failures achieves nothing now).

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:15 PM

I reckon it is the ceilidhs and the sessions that encourage youngsters to come to festivals. They don't want to hang around sad song sessions waiting their turn to sing. They want to be up and doing things.
Concerts with big names are fine, but don't attaract the attendance of the youngsters to the extent that participative events do. So programme in lots of ceilidhs and lots of music sessions.
Waiting to be shot down in flames by young mudcatters.....
Mary

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: treewind
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:24 PM

I don't think it's ageing audiences, far less than on the club scene anyway. I thought the Summer festivals were eactly the place where you found young folkies, especially the ones with lots of dance content.

Festivals come and go - is there really a trend of decline, or have we just noticed a few that are in difficulties? On the other side of the scales there are there are new ventures that look promising - Miskin at Easter is quite established now, and this year's Eel's Foot weekend in Suffolk (based on the Steve Monk memorial step dance sompetition, but with concerts, workshops, sessions and a ceilidh filling the weekend) was a wonderful start - at the end everybody was talking about "next year..." so I'm sure it will happen again.

Sidmouth miraculously rose from the ashes at the last moment this year and looks to be on a much stronger foundation for next year. Smaller, but many say better for that.

If there are reasons for a general decline, one of them might be the ever increasing amount of bureaucratic red tape that goes with such events - is this becoming a problem, or does it simply mean that festival organisers must take a sufficiently professional attitude or they won't jump all the hurdles?

Anahata

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:37 PM

Cost could be a factor.
For a family to attend can be pretty expensive.

My daughters who are 10 and 14 love Ceilidhs. They also love Flossie.

Compare the cost of a folk festival against say a visit to a theme park such as Alton Towers. Ask youngsters what they would rather do.

I know my children would go for the theme park everytime.

Put Gwen Staffani on in one room and the best Folk Singer on in another and I wonder who the youngsters would go to see.

Just a few thoughts came to mind

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:40 PM

Looking at the festival "list" in the UK it's immediately obvious that most have been going strong for many years while others, who have the space to do so, have even expanded in recent years. I've personally seen no problems of decline in a thriving festival scene here and no evidence that young enthusiasts are not an integral part of the music, dance and song scene.
The way that Lancaster Maritime has been organized i.e. most concerts in intimate pub settings and free to the public, necessarily makes it dependant upon grants but many organisers valiently struggle on with only a minimum of financial support and, as Anahata points out, increasing "hurdles" from attempting to meet legal requirements and increasing insurance costs due to the insiduous "claim culture" mentioned in another thread.
I, for one, am looking forward to 2006 and my favourite festivals - long may they continue.........

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:41 PM

Lancaster is a bit of a different fish, George - since it has 'become' a folk festival, rather than being instigated as such. Let me tell you a story...

A long time ago, Lancaster City Council's Tourism Service was charged with a simple remit: to enliven the C18th quayside. Now it so happened, that the Tourism Development person was a fan of history, heritage and folk music and so began the Maritime Festival - a few performers of shanties, some guided walks - a low key but effective event, at first. It was to play a role in a whole calendar of promotional events, which would raise the profile of the city and attract people to visit. Seventeen years on and the event has become the world's biggest gathering of sea-song and shanty singers, supported by a host of other maritime themed entertainments. It has won the Council numerous Tourism Awards and even features in Colin Irwin's book 'In Search of Albion'!!! For the thousands of people who come every year, it is an absolute must in their diaries. But it is mainly a free festival - because, at the core, is that original purpose - to attract positive, image building publicity and raise the profile of the city. In recent years, the festival's core budget from the City Council has been matched by private sponsorship. However, when the Council decide to cut that core budget and not to organise the event, the whole thing is scuppered, because it is organised by officers of the council. Supporters of the festival have now been able to persuade the Council to allow the officers to organise the event as part of their duties, but have not committed any funding. Consequently, it will be funded purely on what external monies can be raised.

Nothing to do with dwindling audiences - quite the contrary - over 7,000 signatures were on the petition to reinstate it and 100 people travelled from all over the country to present it (including from as far away as Kent).

All, however, to do with politics. More than that I cannot say.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:59 PM

Not that I'm any kind of expert, but I'd rather have lots of good acts to see, and *lots* of *different* stuff.

If your target audience is people who are 100% converted to folk already, then endless diddly-diddly sessions are fine. But if you want to get the rest of the town involved as well, then you need something to attract them, and diddly-diddly sessions won't do that. Also, you can't charge (or not much) for diddly-diddly sessions - if you want your festival to break even then the acts are where it's at. And there's two main things that'll attract people to the acts - either big names or (perceived) novelty, where "novelty" would be something you don't get to see often, like African dancers.

If your acts are going to go on stage though and play "sunk in the lowlands low" for 10 minutes solid though, and repeat that trick with a half-dozen other songs, to fill an hour or so's programme, and spend a good 10 minutes of that hour tuning up (as a *very* large name musician did in Whitby this year), then you've just reinforced the classic stereotype of folk musicians, and anyone who thought "might be fun" is going to come out thinking "not doing that again!" (And that includes some of the folkies.)

Similarly, song sessions featuring a variety of styles, some unaccompanied, some accompanied by guitar, some with accordian, etc. are fun to listen to. Even if one isn't very good, there'll be another one on in a minute doing something else. Song sessions that feature all unaccompanied singers droning on ad infinitum are bloody tedious, and unaccompanied singing is nearly always ultra-traditional folk stuff, so bugger all variety there.

And if you want to get the town involved, then let them know you're there. A couple of small banners at random places off the beaten track does *not* make publicity. Plaster the town with posters. Get Morris dancers on street corners. Get buskers everywhere. Make sure you've got banners covering the main shopping areas.

Graham.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: LesB
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 02:27 PM

I don't wish to slag off any festival fringers, but it must be said that those who go to a festival and don't buy a ticket, obviously don't contribute to the running costs of a festival. Therebye no money, no booked artists, no audience, no festival.
I'm not saying that this may be the cause of any festival failing, but it must be a contributary factor. If a festival is thriving then the ratio of paying to non paying punters is about right.
Incidentaly not all festivals have thriving ceilidhs, i've been to a couple recently where the ceilidhs have been all but dropped for lack of take up.
A few thoughts to ponder.....
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Forsh
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:44 PM

I think the answer lays in getting "new blood" into the scene. Folk is a wide genre, some would say it is a 'roots' scene, young people have to be attracted, and Folk (or F**k as I call it,) must be re-popularized as per the 60's (Dylan, Donovan, Peter Paul and Mary, etc) . Also, here's a poser: Why does Vin G not take one of the opportunities which must surely come his way, to go on TV? this would surely be a start.
Festivals? Mini Fests, short things for those of the generation with a 'short little span of attention' (spot the lyric). Folk on Dude!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

Age is undoubtedly a factor in the rise and fall of both clubs and festivals, and it isn't purely a matter of the average age of attenders.

I have been involved in the running of folk clubs for more than 30 years, and performing for nearly 50.

I would really like to hand over the reins to others, and settle back simply to enjoy the performances, mine and others. I can't do this because it has proved nearly impossible to find people who are prepared to commit the time and energy needed.

I am a product of a generation who, from necessity, had to make their own games and entertainment. I was already twelve when I first saw TV at home in coronation year. As a result it seemed natural to get involved in organising clubs when I became interested in Folk.

There are many fine and talented youngsters performing now, but very few who are willing to get into organising, which is a great pity as their youthful enthusiasm and fresh ideas are, IMHO, the very thing that is essential to re-vitalising the whole folk scene.

To young people who say that folk clubs are old hat, and not producing what they want, I always reply "Tell us what we could be doing to improve the experience, then get involved and help us to make it happen".

I believe that the future of folk music depends on the availability of organisers young enough to relate to new ideas. Now all I need is to find some.

Any suggestions?
Don T.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 06:12 PM

in the same way that businesses come and go, but trade remains, crime syndicates come and go but crime remains.
Popular music trends come and go but the genre is still there so let it be with Folk, times and needs change we had a revival in the 60s >70s and some of the folk since then are still around even some drummers now run festivals - if a drummer can do it so can anyone.

We must never be complacent but always open minded, some of the youth do get out and do it!

Dare I say shooting roots, Ethno England (Ethno world even) All british festivals differ from the Noirth of Scotland to the Cornish and Breton Music, the genres are smaller and so we all have to fight harder.

I don't think any of us are dead yet - then there is Kate, Liza, Tim, crikey squillions of youngsters doing it really well. Lets be positive and talk about expanding what we have not bemoaning losses and arguing (aka Sidmouth threads) about how why who and where.

Feint heart never won fair maiden and even some won were lost later.

Sorry about the colloquialisms it is a bad habit of mine....

Andy

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 06:42 PM

Forsh, what are you talking about? Vin Garbutt WOULD take any opportunity to get on TV as would ALL of the pros on the British scene. I have to tell you that for 99% there are no opportunities, nor will there ever be. It's just not fashionable. Most programme planners etc are under 35!! and think we still all wear Arran sweaters. get real man!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 06:55 PM

Its a pity that good young presenters like Verity Sharp are hidden away on Radio 3. Switched Late Junction on last night, straight into Jasper Smith followed by Crucible.

Back to the topic, we are starting to see a few younger people running things but not running or participating in classic folk clubs. The support for folk music by under 25s in the UK is the strongest that it has been for about 30 years but still not strong to sustain the commercial side of folk music at its present levels.

We seem to be heading for another dance revival and hopefully that will get a lot stronger but I think the song side will possibly continue its slow decline for another decade.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,andymac
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:21 PM

I think LesB misses an important point in his comments regarding people who go to festivals and don't pay in to concerts; thereby "in some way not contributing "to the running costs of the festival.."
I had a similar discussion/argument with the organiser of a new and well attended festival in Scotland about four or five years ago.

If all you do is want to make money then run concerts and hope that you will get enough people to attend thereby covering costs and making a (usually fairly small) profit. But all you will have will be concerts, not a festival.

If however you want a festival...then encourage the non-payers to turn up. We non-contributors will sit in the pubs, drinking, eating,(thus providing income to local businesses who in turn may give suport to the festival) singing and playing tunes which in turn will (hopefully) encourage others to linger in the same pubs.

I am tired frankly of being told I don't contribute to festivals just because I don't buy weekend tickets. I don't buy tickets because I'm not a fan of concert type settings for folk artist and besides I'm too busy enjoying myself in the sessions with my friends but if you think that is non-contribution then come along and see where the festival is really taking place and go to the tune sessions and see where young folk are because the chances are they're not in the concerts either.

I am not attacking those who only go to concerts and can't abide sessions nor am I atacking those who buy weekend tickets and attend everything, sessions included, where possible. I am however defending those of my ilk who choose to do their own thing in the pubs and who add to the indefinable ambience of a successful folk festival..
andymac

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,A Festival Organiser
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:57 PM

Just come across this thread. There's a lot of interesting ideas. Some I agree with. Some I don't. It would take far too long to respond to all the points above but I will make just four observations of my own:

(i) Many festivals are thriving and the large number of young people attending is most encouraging.

But you don't see many of those under-25s in folk clubs!

Of course some festivals are struggling. Some may disappear but, just like plants, as some wither and die others will take root and grow. Everything has a life cycle. Festivals are no exception.

(ii) Most festivals are finding it harder and harder to balance the books due to ever-increasing costs and a ceiling on what they can charge for tickets. Those festivals dependent on council grants see those grants 'frozen' at best or, as in the case of Sidmouth, drastically reduced or scrapped altogether.

Ten years ago one of my own festivals received £16,000 in local council and arts council grants plus free use of our local council venues. Now we get just £5,000 in council grants, nothing from the arts council, and have to pay £5,000 for our council venues. We've survived and prospered because we've increased our audience base but every year we find we are having to reduce some of our 'fringe' activities - one less club venue, one less workshop, one less outreach programme, one less artist etc.

(iii) Most folk festivals are run by well-meaning amateurs with a great love of traditional music, song and dance. We're not in it for the money. Some 150 different festival organisers will be meeting in Telford this weekend at the annual conference of the Association of Festival Organisers and will debate long into the night the very topics being discussed on this thread.

(iv) There are more folk festivals in the UK than ever before and more people are attending folk festivals than ever before. The sector is thriving with many festivals reporting record attendances in 2005 but as costs increase and health & safety, security and licensing regulations all get tighter, there is a risk that the quality and quantity of folk festivals might be threatened in the years to come.

If people continue to attend in large numbers and are willing to pay towards the cost of staging the festivals instead of just enjoying the 'free' sessions and activities on the fringe then the future is bright. Let us hope that proves to be the case.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

Don T wants to hand over the running of his folk club to younger blood. Well its not just folkies who have that problem.
I was involved in Preschool Playgroups which started out as parents getting together to provide for their children, but as time went on it became hard to find committed committee members.
people work in paid jobs and are valued by money

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 05:34 AM

There are problems with some UK folk festivals, but UK festivals as a whole are doing fine. Galstonbury sold out instantly this year, as usual. I saw various folk acts there this year, all with good audiences, people of all ages having fun(including my own gig with the Boat Band, and there were plenty of kids a quarter my age about).
    Everyone has to change with the times, we all have to be geared up to be different each year. Otherwise things may well spiral into decline. Tweak, tweak, and tweak again. My own pet theories of "why the decline" tend to lie with the clubs, not the festival. The excitineg festival acts I see are not, in general, folk club type acts. They have come by different routes. Clubs and festivals have grown apart sunbstantially, and the clubs are no longer the main conduit feeding audiences and acts to the festivals. A little re-connection wouldnt go amiss.
   And, to join in with a discussion earlier in the thread, couldnt agree more with GUESTAndymac going to festival pub sessions and not paying to go to the concerts. It's the people playing fiddles in the lcal pubs and spending good money on beer who are generating the buzz, pleasing the local businesses etc. Not the people sitting quietly in the marquees in reverent silence. Though, obviously, festivals need both kind of people.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 06:20 AM

Are attendances really increasing ~ or is it just that those "ageing folkies" now have better paid jobs and can afford to go to more festivals or have retired from full time work and can spend the time at festivals?

One person I know is now retired, gets in his camper van and spends the whole of August travelling from venue to venue.... but he's the sort of person who likes sitting in concerts and listening. His youngest son is 16 and wouldn't be seen dead in a concert tent.

I think that many of the figures are inaccurate because it's the same people just going to more festivals. I meet people at Towersey that I saw at Sidmouth, the same audience in a concert at Whitby that were at Bedworth..... There are younger people coming into the scene, but how many of them really and truly come just because their parents are there?

LTS

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,BazT
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:52 AM

The only festival I've been to is Fylde Folk Festival (I live in Fleetwood where it's held, so I can't ignore it really), and Alan Bell who organises it (and whoever else is involved) deserves my heartfelt gratitude, not just because of the unwavering high quality of the performers year-on-year, but also because the "fringe" seems to me to be an integral part of the festival, and this fringe is what has turned me on to folk music. Going to free performances in local pubs has introduced my ears to some great singers and great songs, and as I result I now attend my local singaround, I have re-discovered my love for playing the guitar, I've learnt the mandolin and discovered Irish session tunes, in short, Fylde Festival has re-vitalised my ears!

Whilst I'll certainly be buying tickets for "official" performances next year, without the fringe I may never have discovered this music, and so I think they have a vital role in getting the message out to the unconverted.


Cheers,

Baz.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: AlexB
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:54 AM

I drag my dad to stuff. Well, he wants to go anyway, but I make sure he does. I've been told that, while he was the one who helped spark my interest in folk, I'm more a part of the scene. I'm 19 and I fully enjoy going to the concerts, the sing arounds as well as the ceilidhs and workshops. I cannot speak much for young people, though I have seen plenty that seem to enjoy themselves, so in that respect, I don't think it an age thing.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: LesB
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:13 AM

Andyman accuses me of missing the point re- fringers not contributing to a fest. I do in fact accnowledge the part fringers make to a fest, my quote "If a festival is thriving then the ratio of paying to non paying punters is about right". Should cover this.

My point was not that they don't contribute to a festival, they do, they also help the local economy, but this does not pay the organisers bills.
I agree that all aspects of a festival are important, I go to sessions sometimes, but I rarely have the time, because there is always someone on that I want to see.
Also I find, (a bit of a contentious issue this),that when I do take my guitar or melodeon, i'ts not easy to get into the 'clique', especially a singaround. But thats another issue.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Julian Weaver
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:28 AM

Is Andymac in cloud cuckoo land? Does he really think that landlords will contribute to a folk festival just because that weekend he has some extra business with the sessions in his pub - no the greedy so and so's pocket the extra cash and don't even say thank you. Try going to the same pub the weekend before or after the festival and see if the atmosphere is the same and then think that maybe a financial contribution to the festival may be worthwhile.

I also know of "non-paying" persons still wanting to use the camping facilities of the paying festival goers but of course without any charge!!!

I've seen the financial budget of the festival I'm involved with change dramatically over the last decade or so. The percentage spent on the artistic elements has dwindled from over 50% to about 20% now. The costs of halls, insurance, licences, health and safety, security, publicity have all increased drastically. The camping facilities have had to be improved along with the expectations of the festival goer. No longer is a drainpipe with a tarpaulin around it sufficient. Nowadays the provision of hot showers are taken for granted.

It seems that councils have been given instructions from above to cut all funding of such events, not only folk festivals but jazz, classical and just about all entertainment.

Any way I think my contribution to this thread has gone on long enough. So I'll finish with a great big thankyou to all those selfless individuals who give their time and effort to producing folk festivals. Whatever genre or media they use to provide an outlet for folk enthusiasts to enjoy themselves, it is worthwhile and I take this opportuity to express my congratulations to you all.

Cheers

Julian

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:54 AM

Oddly enough, some of us long for the days of the drainpipe and tarpaulin... and some remember the drainpipe BEFORE the tarpaulin was added.... it made a great deal of difference to the state of the loos - I don't remember them breaking down half so often as they do now, and that was when there were fewer provided!

As I've said on other threads, if you want to go to a festival, camp, have fun and give something back, go as a volunteer steward. Quite often you get a free ticket or free camping or both, and you do everyone a favour.

LTS

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,A Festival Organiser
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:58 AM

I totally agree with Les B that those who enjoy the sessions and 'fringe' events at festivals still need to help the organisers pay their bills or else there will be no festivals to have 'free' sessions or a 'fringe' at.

I also agree with much of what Julian Weaver says but not his assertion that "councils have been given instructions from above to cut all funding of such events, not only folk festivals but jazz, classical and just about all entertainment".

I don't know who "above" is supposed to mean but most councils are struggling with budgets across all departments.

Some never funded festivals anyway. Others have certainly cut their funding - look at East Devon District Council's reduced support for Sidmouth - and many have 'frozen' their festival grants - a cut in real terms.

But they're not all bad.

Hampshire County Council is being recommended to increase its grants to festivals next week from around £21,000p.a. to over £30,000p.a. - an increase of nearly 50 per cent.

It won't mean more money for individual festivals but it will mean that more festivals in total will receive funding and a glance at the list of festivals recommended for funding suggests some 40 per cent of Hampshire's money will go to festivals with a strong 'folk' element.

While criticising the bad councils, let's give praise to the good.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Shipwrecked
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 09:02 AM

The Festival Organiser makes a fair point.

Perhaps we should move Sidmouth & Lancaster to Hampshire.

Both would then have a sympathetic local council appreciative of a festival's contribution to the local community and economy.

That's something neither Sidmouth or Lancaster appear to have in their present locations.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Ned at work
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:05 AM

From what I've seen many of the festivals that have been in crisis have been at maximum capacity anyway, so encouraging more people to attend is not solving the problem.
Festivals have been hit by increased insistence on insurance,health and safety being tightened up(With extra costs) and councils pulling grant aid at short notice.(In one case I know of the council pulled a grant then gave it back when it was too late to make proper use of it.)
When at one time festivals could be run by booking a few acts and a camp site, it's not surprising that people are wary of getting involved in all the red tape that now exists.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Spot the Dog
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 12:01 PM

The folk genre (awful word init?) is pretty unique amongst other music types. The percentage of participants must be massive when compared to others like Jazz, Rock or the classic music scene. This particiaption is a problem for concert type festivals where a high percetage of the potential audience prefers to make the music rather than listen. It's a problem (but a nice problem)

Folk Clubs cannot hope to attract the top festival artists (I have an email proving this from one of our "mega stars") because of the financial aspect. My club prefers to pick the best artists rather than the best publicity machines and surprisingly most of the best are willing to negotiate.

Why don't festivals have a method of allowing the session performer to contribute financially to the festival. An afternoons busking here or there or a badge (button) declaring you to be a patron (for a small donation) or a session performer concert.

No answers just comment and suggestion.

Spot

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: andymac
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:27 PM

Les B, I accept entirely your reply to my comments, I should have read more closely perhaps..

As I said, I have no wish to denigrate the many people who attend concerts, I would however hope for that to be reciprocated and the role of those of us who go to the sessions to be recognised as a vital part of a festival too.

On the other hand, I would like to point out to JW that I don't live in cloud cuckoo land and don't appreciate the personal nature of the attack..I thought we were having a discussion about what is or isn't wrong with festivals and where they should be going in future..

My point remains, at many of the weekends I go to, the local pubs and businesses do contribute towards the weekends as they know it boosts their own takings..I know of festivals where the session goers pay towards camping facilities and buy raffle tickets etc to help with funding..
I simply don't accept or appreciate the subtext to this thread; that somehow those of us who don't attend concerts are 2nd class spongers and hangers-on.

As I've already said, I am not a fan of "concert style" events; many people other than the concert-goers make a significant effort to get to festivals and spend most of their time in the sessions, does that make us less important to the organisers?
Perhaps we simply shouldn't turn up then? Would it be better if we never appeared and allowed the (allegedly) ever-dwindling audiences at concerts to sit in reverential silence?

Rant over, can we please get back to a discussion on the central topics?..

Is it possible that the numbers are declining because people would prefer more "glamourous" concerts rather than folk festivals? Much as I don't like the Celtic Conections format in Glasgow (impersonal..lots of big names, big venues...)it does appear to be successful in that atendances are increasing. To my mind though it isn't really a folk festival, but therein lies an entirley different debate...

Andymac

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:16 PM

Andymac,

You are right in saying that local businesses DO contribute to many festivals. Where businessmen see benefits from festival goers, they will put money in.

Sidmouth 2005 is a case in point. The owners of the Bedford Hotel, for example, paid, so I was told, the cost of the Friday fireworks display, and every so called fringe venue filled collection boxes with money from those who "don't contribute because they don't go to concerts" (not quite true, as the majority do both).

Don T.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:24 PM

Generalisations:
Pubs/Breweries will not normally subsidise festivals (exceptions of course)
Local Authorities will not subsidise festivals ~ L & T budgets usually last in pecking order exceptions seaside perhaps

Musicians go to play with other musicians

Singers sing with their mates

Dancers dance with their teams , or at the Ceildh

Public at large will enjoy (or not) what they see may contribute in the hat
Folk/Concert club attenders may go to concerts (but not the other categories aforementioned unless in the know)
Net winners the pubs, are they grateful no way

Mainly the above FF attendees come away happy spent up and have enjoiyed what they have done

What are FF organiser trying to do ~ encourage bums on seats and paying customers

What do the majority want ~ to do their own thing and pay as little as possible

Many diverse motivations keep festivals going ~ not least the social side

Many hours practice goes in to music song dance and it is these people who make FFs what they are. It is the spirit which continues of 'homemade music' for mutual enjoyment of your crowd.

Yes booked guests are by and large excellent and 'entertain' in variety of ways and many in ways that I personally like and would go to see

Needless to say I like what I like and that's it!
Food for thought, but I think near the mark. If FF organiser think they can break the mould I know who will lose!

Ray

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: danensis
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 06:11 PM

I've been to a number of folk festivals in my time, and they all seem to follow the same pattern. They start out small, get a whopping great PA so you get a better sound mix standing outside than in the venue, branch out into several sidelines - world music, jazz, blues, aand then wonder why the punters aren't coming back.

Apart from the one-off Doncaster Folk Festival in 1970, organised by the Foggy Dew-O and headlining Ralph McTell, the festivals I attended for more than one year were Burnley, Holmfirth, Bridgnorth and Beverley. I must admit I have not been to Holmfirth for a while despite it ocurring on or about my birthday. I shall be interested to see if Bridgnorth retains its informal image at the new venue, as I suspect there will be a lot more problems with yoofs from the town than there were at the old site.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 08:11 AM

There still has to be a place for the type of weekend we run. A weekend where singers can come with no guests, no concerts, just a venue where you can sing your heart out, ballad or rousing chorus, on the top of a Tor or in the singing room. Everyone is welcome, everyone gets a chance to sing, if you want to chat to friends you sit in the bar, so singers get listened to. The youngest singer we have had was about 10 and the oldest... has to be in their 80's. Last year we had two absolutley stunning young singers 15 and 17 ish who totally blew everyone away.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 09:14 AM

A couple of examples of well thought out festivals, combining both 'back to basics' for siners & sessioners + concerts with 'Big Names' for the audient type punters:


thread.cfm?threadid=50307#762814


Subject: RE: BS: Article to appear on PVFF in EDNFrom:

Les from Hull - PM Date: 10 Aug 02 - 09:37 AM

Kat - adding to my mate BridWid's comments - for people who didn't know PVFF was an object lesson in organising a completely FREE folk festival at the drop of a hat. We got the local people interested, particularly the publicans (20 of them contributing to publicity expeneses) and asked the ones who normally book acts in their pubs over that weekend to book someone 'folky', and gave them a list of suitable acts they could afford. The local town council sponsored a ceildh band, the district council provided camping facilities and sponsored a shanty event. Local dance teams joined in. A local club put on a concert. And there's plenty of singers and musicians hereabouts to swell the sessions and singarounds. Most of our 'punters' were singaround and session people who just want an excuse to sing and play. So everything was free - even the programmes (actually the whole thing was fuelled by not inconsiderable beer sales). So everyone was happy, although we did not have big names to entice the concert goers. A major factor which should not be overlooked was the fact that the regular festival had built up that weekend as the weekend to go to Beverley. So to some extent we had a partly captive audience. We could not have organised this event without Mudcat. Much of the discussion took place here, and it greatly enhanced our publicity. (Thanks again, Max!) I would love to hear of something similar being organised by 'catters elsewhere in the world. Perhaps it already happens. If not - got to it, mudcatters.


Also Bishops Castle (organised by Mrs Lemon et al), where some of the pubs put on 'Stars' & you pay on the door.

The rest of the festival is resourced via a nominal [& fair] contribution for the campsite & it's facilities.

Both splendid ventures- could do with more like these!!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: danensis
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 11:11 AM

PVFF was good, I would probably have been in Beverley that weekend anyway, but it was good to see pubs that usually do football and lager doing folk and real ale.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Carol
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 11:44 AM

Can Guest Cats PM me where the weekend they run is please?

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 01:38 PM

There are quite a few weekends throughout the year similar to the one Cats runs , Carol. Some are open to all comers, some are invitation only, but all tend to be thoroughly enjoyable and relaxing.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: andymac
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 04:18 PM

I'm like Carol, I'd also be keen to know of the weekends which Cats is talking about...

Amongst the ones I've enjoyed in Scotland over the last few years are-

Auchtermuchty: the folk weekend is at the end of a week long local community festival and the programme is filled with ads from local businesses. Still a weekend of relatively small concerts with singers and musicians and a fair bit in the pubs too, though it has had less space for singing in the sessions these past few years.

Girvan: Intermediate in size probably; it has some good sized concerts and lots of sessions for tunes, singing and a mix of both. The programme is also filled with ads paid for by local businesses, ranging from pubs/hotels to shops and cafes. They also donate (occasionally) to the running costs of the weekend as they see the income it generates and the publicity it provides for the town in general.

Collessie: A singing weekend based on a small farm park near Auchtermuchty. Traditional guests giving concerts and talks on aspects of song and their lives. Sessions tend not to be spontaneous (lack of alternatives to the main venue I guess..) but everyone will sing at some point over the weekend.

Cullerlie: Another singing weekend based in another farm park in the Norht East of Scotland. It is run with assistance from the Elphinstone Institue of Aberdeen and is intended to showcase the traditional songs and culture of the North East.

Apologies if that sounds like an advert for these weekends, obviously what I enjoy will appeal to some and not to others but I mention them to show that diversity exists alongside the "super-festivals" of Whitby etc. there's place for all of our tastes hopefully.

Andy

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 06:51 PM

What Cats is talking about is not really a festivalas such: several call themselves a Song and Ale, other just call themselves weekends. You will find no concerts, no booked artists, no printed program, noPA systems, no egos on display.

Depending on the site and its facilities somewhere between 40 and 150 people meet for a singing weekend - 4 sessions: Fri 8-whenever; Sat 12-4, 8-whenever; Sun 12-3 (all times very approx - start when enough people gather at the singing place - stop when there aren't enough left).

Mornings are free for a ramble (and sing if desired) in the surrounding countryside, a shopping expedition to the nearest market town, or just a lazy morning round the campsite/pub.

Sound good? Too bloody right it is.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: andymac
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM

Sounds perfect..I've been to both the Innishowen and Forkhill weekends in Eire and Northern Ireland and they operate like that.

Their history is slightly different in that they were both funded for a while and when the funding was withdrawn the organisers decided to cancel the weekend but we all said "no chance" and turned up anyway..
In fact I was told this year that Forkhill had been offered a new source of funding and they've turned it down as they prefer the way things are now..

Andy

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,ray padgett
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:36 AM

my posting above was aimed largely at larger festivals booking 'guests'

However I have been involved with Barnsley singaround festival at Easter for very many years Good Fri to Easter Sunday

This takes place at The Shaw Inn, Barnsley (Barnsley Folk club)jct 37 M1 one mile with indoor camping at the YMCA, adjacent to the town centre and very friendly 5 mins walk from Shaw to YM (£5 for weekend for indoor camping)

Upstairs room will be NO SMOKING Easter Festival in singing room smoking downstairs only and music/song permitted throughout

Saturday upstairs only

Sunday Workshop and survivors do (small charge)TBC

One of the cheapest around for song performers/musicians

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:59 AM

I expect the majority of not very know;edgable festival goers foldly imagine the are paying their ticket money in order to enable them to hear various famous(ish) performers theyve read about in the magazines, seen on TV etc. Julian Weaver's comments earlier in this thread that the festival he is involved with has, over the last decade or so, reduced the percentage of the budget they allocate to artists from 50% to 20%. I founbd that statistic a bit of an eyeopener. I expect this is not at all an unusual state of affairs. You will often find situations rather similar in aother fields: council arts coordinator/development officer type jobs, where the fulltime employee concerned adminsters a budget considerably less than their own salary, and not all that budget goes on artists. If it costs £80 to get £20 to an artist or a folk singer, there is an attitude problem somewhere.
    I find myself more and more interested in the good old free festival, informaal get-together concept. It won't, and shouldn;'t, replace the other kind, the expensive ticket/wee-run/plenty of famous guest concept. But it most definitely has its place. I've jyst been to the Audlem Bagpipe and Hurdy Gurdy day, as I usually do.(Not that I play a bagpipe or hurdy gurdy). No ticket money involved, no paid performers. Just a jolly get-together. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:05 AM

Yes Cats, which one? Are instruments allowed? I have been trying to get to the Sussex one for years. Knockholt is a must in my calendar, and Pig's Ear was mostly a lot of fun this yar. The alas deceased Baddlesmere was great too - deceased because th pub didn't want to sell all that beer, and was scared the neighbours were being upset.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 08:16 AM

It will be interesting to see what effect the new Madonna Documentaary to be shown on TV has on the Folk Scene. a bit was on Parky and has hibby Guy Ritchie been seen as an ardent "Fokie" playing and singing in a session till the wee small hours.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,tongue in cheek
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM

Noddy,

I expect it will perpetuate the myth that Irish Folk music is the only type which exists.

Regards

TIC ;-)

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Belter
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:22 AM

Noddy,

Maybe we should sign-up Madonna to appear at Sidmouth next year?

She could do a concert at The Ham and her hubby could play in The Bedford session.

Belter

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Cats
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

The weeekend we run is the Fox and Hounds at Bridestowe on Dartmoor, 12, 13, 14 May 2006. The pub is on the moor, has a skittle alley which we use for singing, has it's own campsite and hotel rooms. Arrive friday, go home Sunday, sing a bit, share a good laugh, walk on the moors and if you are energetic, stroll to the top of the nearest tor on Sunday morning for a sing.
pm me and I'll send you a flyer and directions.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 01:13 PM

Apart from stewarding I mostly do ceilidhs and sessions - does that make me young?
Mind you concerts are too loud to sit in on these days so that makes me grumpy (but still not old)

I am sure that festivals will have the apogee but when I can't predict - the price of petrol will be a factor for sure.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: GUEST,Mrs Blue
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 02:47 PM

Pricey petrol or not most festivals have just enjoyed their best summer ever with record crowds almost everywhere.

Only Sidmouth suffered a slump in numbers compared to previous years and we all know why that was.

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: BB
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 02:59 PM

The very first Song & Ale took place at Rockbourne near Salisbury twenty-five years ago, then a couple of years later moved via Devon to a farm near Whittlebury in Northants., where it has taken place every September since.

Around 150 people, mostly singers, attend each year - instruments are not banned, but strongly discouraged (they tend to waste good singing time, and take up too much room in the barn). Around 22 hours of (official) singing during the weekend, plus a few hours unofficial singing after midnight, whilst partaking of hot soup, sloe gin, etc.

The weekend is not advertised - no need - but if you're interested, PM me and I'll send you an e-mail address so that you can get on the mailing list.

A number of other similar weekends have started up all over the country since then.

Barbara

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Cats at Work
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:38 AM

I was at the Rockbourne session and I think that, somewhere we still have a very old tape with an impromptu, as opposed to official, sing on it. 25 years later, jon is still going but I can't as I have to work and it's too far to travel to get there. Never mind, I retire in 14 years time so have booked my ticket for then!

Subject: RE: UK Festivals - Future directions?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:30 PM

& then of course you can always DYO: [like DIY- Do yer Own!]

Me & various fiends go to suitable hostelry type venues with nearby campsites pretty well all year round & have a wail of a time!