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BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!

Teribus 24 Feb 11 - 12:40 AM
Bobert 23 Feb 11 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Feb 11 - 04:19 PM
Bobert 23 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM
GUEST 23 Feb 11 - 01:39 AM
Teribus 23 Feb 11 - 12:54 AM
Teribus 23 Feb 11 - 12:51 AM
Teribus 23 Feb 11 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 11 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 11 - 06:43 PM
Bobert 22 Feb 11 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,999 22 Feb 11 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 11 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,999 22 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM
Stringsinger 22 Feb 11 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,999 22 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM
Teribus 22 Feb 11 - 10:12 AM
Bobert 21 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM
Teribus 21 Feb 11 - 12:29 AM
Ed T 20 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM
Bobert 20 Feb 11 - 08:13 AM
Teribus 20 Feb 11 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 11 - 10:54 PM
Bobert 19 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM
Teribus 19 Feb 11 - 02:02 AM
Teribus 19 Feb 11 - 01:46 AM
Teribus 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 AM
Teribus 19 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM
Teribus 19 Feb 11 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Feb 11 - 12:07 PM
Teribus 18 Feb 11 - 12:41 AM
Bobert 17 Feb 11 - 08:01 PM
Donuel 17 Feb 11 - 07:41 PM
Amos 17 Feb 11 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,kendall 17 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Feb 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,kendall 17 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM
Teribus 17 Feb 11 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 09:25 AM
Bobert 17 Feb 11 - 09:21 AM
Teribus 17 Feb 11 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,999 16 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM
gnu 16 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM
Teribus 16 Feb 11 - 05:02 PM
Teribus 16 Feb 11 - 04:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM
Bobert 16 Feb 11 - 02:17 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 12:40 AM

"please don't come back with more denials and smoke 'n mirrors... I mean, I understand why you want to rewrite the entire last 8 years... I would, too, had I been on the wrong side of history but I was on the correct side of history..."

Only thing is Bobert it is you who have rewritten history isn't it?

Examples:

1. The famous "Gold Plated" M-16 that Rumsfeld was supposed to have given Saddam - But didn't

2. The chemical and biological weapons that Rumsfeld was supposed to have given Saddam - But didn't

3. The meeting between Rumsfeld and Saddam after the end of the Iran-Iraq War where these weapon sales were arranged and agreed - But no such meeting ever took place

Inconveniently for Bobert I can substantiate and verify my version of history, which is a damn sight more than he can do for his.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 06:23 PM

I wouldn't go that far...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 04:19 PM

I must be doing some good, eh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM

Can't argue with that, Gfs-er...


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 01:39 AM

: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!......The U.S. Military!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:54 AM

Guest999 go to the opening posts of this thread for some detail relating to WMD's actually found - Saddam remember had said that they had all been destroyed, many times.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:51 AM

Stringsinger:

"There was never anything to fear from Saddam."

The US Administrations of Bill Clinton and George W Bush did not agree with your reading of the situation - Clinton half-heartedly tried to address the problem after having identified it, George W Bush put the matter beyond all doubt and in doing so uncovered three "secret" nuclear weapons programmes and shut down a highly dangerous and illegal nuclear weapons proliferation network.

"If there were any usable materials in Iraq that could have fashioned WMD's, they were supplied by Bush Senior and the U.S. military so Saddam could win against Iran."

Nope "dual use" items were purchased from a whole host of countries through front companies and third parties. As stated previously Iraq did not win the war.

"Any attempt to manufacture a yellow cake of WMD's in Iraq
is risible."


Whole-heartedly agree with that. Iraq does not, nor ever has, manufactured yellow cake, they have always imported it. Looking at it logically the quantities of ore that you would have to transport to manufacture uranium yellow cake would be enormous - The yellow cake Stringsinger is made where the ore is mined.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:33 AM

Pssst Bobert Donald Rumsfeld only met Saddam Hussein ONCE and that was on 20th December 1983, right in the middle of the Iran/Iraq War. That meeting lasted for 90 minutes and weapons were not discussed let alone offered or requested - All of that is a simple matter of record.

A list of weapons supplied to Saddam Hussein's regime by the USA is not only very short it is non-existant. The USA did not supply weapons to Iraq although it did, along with Israel supply Iran.

"Bear Spares" were a means of US allies (Israel & Egypt) getting rid of ex-Soviet/Warsaw Pact arms which were then replaced by equipment from the USA.

If all those supposed arms were to ensure that Iraq "WON" the war then the US did not do too good a job did it? - NOBODY won the Iran/Iraq War and that was precisely the result that the USA and the rest of the world wanted.

To answer Guest999's question I would refer you to "beardedbruce's" contributions. As to Iraq and Uranium Yellow Cake in March 2003 it held in storage 500 tons of the stuff, 384 Rocket Motors were discovered and proscribed development of missiles was established, just as British intelligence said it would based on photographic interpretation.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 11:40 PM

Sorry, 'Guest 999'....We SHOULD go back to the thread topic, but this time I had a chance to bust Bobert, in a nice way, so maybe he might re-examine the 'whys' and 'whats' he postulates on. Perhaps, he may even be open to, at least, another side of honest reasoning..possibly yours.

Wink,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:43 PM

Bobert: "I'm not too sure exactly what it is you said, GfinS, but it was entertainin' what ever it was..."

You just demonstrated 'avoidance' and 'deflection'....next mechanism would be, 'denial'.

I'm willing to wager, that you more than likely have drinking issues, as well, in which you would be well acquainted with "transference", which then goes to 'co-dependency', where you probably tend to deal with other people's problems, to avoid dealing with your own.

Now watch, you'll 'deflect' again, playing the ignorant, simple hillbilly......and of course, none of what I posted will conveniently not make sense to you.

Gotcha twice!

Wink!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:31 PM

I'm not too sure exactly what it is you said, GfinS, but it was entertainin' what ever it was...

Yo, T... You don't recall Donnie Rumsfeld going to visit Saddam after the Iraqi-Iranian War and taking him gifts for all the help he'd been fir bein' a good little dictator for US???

Maybe you'd like to furnish us with the list of military hardware that the US supplied Saddam with during that war??? I mean, you don't have to remember it all seein' as you got early half-heimerzs... I mean, you can Google it up... That ain't cheatin', 'er nuthin'... Maybe y6ou come back and share the list of weaponry with us...

But please don't come back with more denials and smoke 'n mirrors... I mean, I understand why you want to rewrite the entire last 8 years... I would, too, had I been on the wrong side of history but I was on the correct side of history...

Guess what, T... Ya' give??? Had the US not wasted a trillion $$$$, trashed its international reputation with the invasion of Iraq, not killed 3000+ of our brothers and sisters. maimed another 40,000 and killed upwards of a 1,000,000 Iraqis then tonight we'd be watchin' Saddam being overthrown...

See... You were on the wrong side of history... I tried to tell ya' but yer head is like granite...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:17 PM

Anyway, going twice:

"As to the title of this thread: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!

OK. What were they and where are they."


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:05 PM

Bobert: "Well, T... It's this way... 12 years working with mentally ill people prepared me to deal with folks like, ahhhhhhh, you..."

Well, well, well

Bobert: "In psychology there's a condition known as "transference", T, whereby the sufferer will take his or her own conditions and not be able to see that condition in themselves but see it in everyone around them...
Given the way things have unfolded in Iraq it it me who is guilty of "lies, half-truths, misconceptions, misrepresentations and myths", ol' son... It is you..."

And there is also something called 'deflection' and 'projection'..I'm sure if you are educated in Psych, you'd understand why I brought those up! Your posts are comprised largely of these two mechanisms, professionally speaking, that is.
..by the way, could your persona of the 'hillbilly-hick' be part of deflection?...as to say, (and/or deflect) anything 'directly aimed at you', never gets through personally, but rather only applies to your fictional alter ego?...which, of course, makes 'denial' an implemented 'avoidance' of getting REAL with anybody?? What are you trying to protect?..Possibly, a conscious error in your 'political mind's' thinking??..another ruse for personal responsibility?

No slam intended, Ol' Chap...but if you're going to conceal where you're coming from, don't forget to hide your tracks.....but you knew that already, didn't you?

Now, it's only up to you, which persona you chose to have those questions addressed to??
How convenient.
Gotcha!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM

"Fear is the biggest motivator in the attempt to manufacture a straw-boogey-man."

Well, fear and a good crop of hay . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 05:51 PM

There was never anything to fear from Saddam. Any supposed WMD that he might have patched together would not amount to anything. It was used as a pretext for Bush's invasion, pure and simple. Even Colin Powell admits he was had.

If there were any usable materials in Iraq that could have fashioned WMD's, they were
supplied by Bush Senior and the U.S. military so Saddam could win against Iran.
But UNSCOM did its job. Any attempt to manufacture a yellow cake of WMD's in Iraq
is risible.

Fear is the biggest motivator in the attempt to manufacture a straw-boogey-man.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

As to the title of this thread: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!

OK. What were they and where are they.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 10:12 AM

"BTW, will you answer me this question??? Remember back when Han Blix -- remember him -- the war mongers were saying stuff like, "Prove you got rid of the stuff we gave you, Saddam"... I mean, there were pages and pages of stuff that the US said that Saddam had to have??? How would they know about that stuff if it didn't come from *US*???

Of course I will answer your question Bobert, it would be impolite not to. You will neither like it nor (perish the thought) accept it, but anyway here goes:

1. Which "warmongers ever said "Prove you got rid of the stuff we gave you".

I do not believe that that question was ever put by anybody.

I do believe that in accordance with UNSCR 1441 Saddam was asked to make a full declaration relating to WMD and WMD programmes in Iraq that request being made formally by the UN.

I do believe that Dr Hans Blix, Head of UNMOVIC, regarded the Iraqi Declaration delivered in December 2002 to be untruthful and false (which it did prove to be).

I do believe that Dr. Hans Blix and his team had a list of discrepancies between what precursor material had been delivered to Iraq and what had been allocated to the "end-user" use (e.g. fertilizer) and what had been diverted to the production of chemical weapons. There were discrepancies in munitions made and munitions expended or destroyed unsupervised.

But at no point in the process at anytime Bobert did anybody ever ask:

"Prove you got rid of the stuff we gave you".


2. "There were pages and pages of stuff that the US said that Saddam had to have??? How would they know about that stuff if it didn't come from the *US*???"

Unfortunately Bobert it wasn't the US who said that Saddam had to have the stuff was it? It was first UNSCOM (the organisation that Scott Ritter and Hans Blix worked for) and then UNMOVIC and even then they did not say that he HAD TO HAVE IT, UNSCOM's Report dated 19th January 1999 only went so far as detailing the discrepancies and what Saddam MAY STILL HAVE. Which sort of answers your question as to how the US knew what Saddam MAY STILL HAVE because the UN's weapons inspectors told them.

Last but not least we have:

"Saddam gassed the Kurds" Where'd he get the gas???

He made it Bobert, the Iraqi Authorities had bloody great factories churning the stuff out, he didn't have to buy it, or borrow it, all he had to do was make it.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM

Well, T... It's this way... 12 years working with mentally ill people prepared me to deal with folks like, ahhhhhhh, you...

BTW, will you answer me this question??? Remember back when Han Blix -- remember him -- the war mongers were saying stuff like, "Prove you got rid of the stuff we gave you, Saddam"... I mean, there were pages and pages of stuff that the US said that Saddam had to have??? How would they know about that stuff if it didn't come from *US*???

Then there was the "Saddam gassed the Kurds" reason on why he was a bad man and why the war was necessary??? Where'd he get the gas??? Borrow it from the Iranians who he had been at war with??? No likely, T...

I'm worries about you, ol' son... You have slipped a cog 'er somethin'... You just ain't hittin' on all cylinders any more... Okay you never were but it's gotten worser...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 12:29 AM

I take it that a Psychiatrist carefully explained that to you Bobert?

Easily seen and demonstrated what "lies, half-truths, misconceptions, misrepresentations and myths" you peddle Bobert, two of them are clearly shown to be so in recent contributions to this thread.

IF Rumsfeld supplied Saddam with weapons or even discussed then you should be able to substantiate and prove that - The truth of the matter is that you cannot.

IF the USA supplied Saddam with the gas that killed the Kurds then you should be able to substantiate and prove that - The truth of the matter is that you cannot.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM

WMD=BLT

Ali G figured this WMD, BLT thing out awhile ago.


"Has you had a puff before?"

"Yeah, I've had a puff before."

"We should talk business later."


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:13 AM

In psychology there's a condition known as "transference", T, whereby the sufferer will take his or her own conditions and not be able to see that condition in themselves but see it in everyone around them...

Given the way things have unfolded in Iraq it it me who is guilty of "lies, half-truths, misconceptions, misrepresentations and myths", ol' son... It is you...

Doctor Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 02:49 AM

"Oh, I'm sorry... I must have fallen off to sleep..."

Of course you did Bobert it happens to you everytime logic, reason, rationality, commonsense, perspective or truth is injected into the discussion.

That does not in any way, shape, or form alter the fact that the accusation levelled at Donald Rumsfeld that he provided weapons to Saddam is completely baseless.

That does not in any way, shape, or form alter the fact that the United States of America supplied "the gas that killed the Kurds" (or anybody else for that matter).

Your world Bobert as we all know relies on Bobert Fact which again as we all know are not facts at all, through varying degrees you rely on lies, half-truths, misconceptions, misrepresentations and myths.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:54 PM

Teribus: "By the bye GfS is perfectly correct in his post."

Ahem..(**clears throat**)...You mean, 'POSTS'....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM

Oh, I'm sorry... I must have fallen off to sleep...

Carry on, T...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 02:02 AM

By the bye GfS is perfectly correct in his post.

The USA and the UK and every other country that joined their coalition were only concerned with one thing, that Iraq was disarmed and that that disarmament could be verified - Not one single WMD had to be found to establish that.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:46 AM

14. March, 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages.

So to maintain one US policy vital to the national interest, the national interests of many valuable US allies in the region and to secure the release of hostages held by a terrorist organisation several US allies were allowed to infringe conditions of sale of items of equipment. All done to avoid the US getting directly involved in a war that could then have escalated. I would say that that was a rather good solution, wouldn't you?

15. Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq.

And the US could have known about this and stopped this how?

16. February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages.

And the US could have known about this and stopped this how?

17. April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas.

What else are those chemicals used for? What did the Iraqi's say they were going to be used for? Who were the chemicals being sent to?

"Mustard gas may be made in different ways according to whether ethylene, vinyl chloride or thiodiglycol is chosen as the starting material. Published UN findings suggest that the Iraqi mustard had been made from the last of these precursors. Thiodiglycol is a quite widely used industrial commodity, finding application as an antioxidant, as a vulcanizing agent, as an intermediate for other commodities, and as a solvent for dyes used in the textile industry."

18. August, 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing.

Judging by points put previously this should come as no surprise to anybody Schultz knew about it since 1983 and DIA had been involved in providing Iraq with intelligence on Iranian intentions since 1982, so this seems no more than duplication and answers/reasons for US c-operation have already been given.

As for "Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925" That should of course be "First use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925". Which was why the augmenting treaty on Chemical Weapons was introduced in 1993.

And of course "by this time" allegations were rife that both sides were using Chemical weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 AM

10. January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application.

"That can have" is the operative phrase here along with "civilian items".

11. March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons.

During this time no vetoes by either US or the UK were used.

Any possible connection here between the Security Council Resolution and the "blocking" activity being because of the resolution only condemning use of such weapons by only one side in the conflict, thereby leaving it perfectly legitimate for the otherside to deploy and use such weapons as they did in fact do?

UN condemnation would not have prevented the use of "biological weapons" as they were not covered by any convention or protocol at the time.

12. May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax.

"Biological exports" from the Centre for Disease Control (Is CDC a well known and reputed arms manufacturer Amos?) Or were these samples sent for research? If so what research was stated by the Iraqi Government? If 21 of the 70 were described as being lethal were the remaining 49 benign? CDC does not manufacture weapons so it can hardly be in the best position to export them, or is that a bit too logical and rational an argument to accept?

13. May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq.

Your thinking here Amos is that weapons grade must equate to weapons use right? That is why you included this gem.

Tell me Amos how would you test your chemical and biological defence systems and counter-measures? How would you know that they would be of any use? To undertake and carry-out these tests you have to have the very thing, or type of thing you are faced with.

To make chemical or biological agents is relatively simple, to weaponise them is extremely difficult, the west (NATO) gave up on that about fifty years ago.

In the UK the research establishment at Porton Down continued to make weapons grade agents long after the UK renounced the use of these weapons. All of the agents made at Porton Down and the research that went on there was required to test suits, respirators, seals and cleaning systems and develope antidotes.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM

5. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.

What supports the contention that these items were specifically purchased by Iraq for those areas with the knowledge and consent of the US Government? Absolutely nothing that I can see, and as previously stated those items have many uses for a country at war and under embargo from their main arms suppliers (The Soviets).

6. October, 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act.

I very much doubt that US Artillery was exported by anyone to Iraq. Iraqi armed forces used Soviet and Warsaw Pact weapons and weapons systems with a few items of military hardware from France. To switch to US weapons would require retraining and re-jigging munitions plants to produce ammunition. The Huey helicopters were of no significant military value and the bombs provided were GP "dump" iron bombs supplied by Saudi Arabia. Now then Amos tell us what had been going on between 22nd September 1980 and October 1983.

In the first two years of the war Iraq seemed to be winning and in that time nothing in the form of help was given to the Iraqi's. Not wishing that any side should win meant that help had to given to the Iranians. The US wished to secure the release of hostages held by Iranian sponsored terrorists in Beirut who included one, William Buckley, the CIA Head of Station in Beirut. Without US knowledge or approval as early as December 1980 Israel started funnelling aircraft spares to Iran to keep their McDonald Douglas Phantom F-4's flying. In this instance it was Israel who was violating the Arms Export Control Act, not the US Government.

As 1982 wore on it was obvious that Iraq's early successes had reached a "high water" mark and that Iran was now looking like winning the conflict. A report by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee put it, the choice was between permitting Iran to dominate the West's oil supply in the Persian Gulf and direct U.S. military intervention. The first was unacceptable and contrary to the dictates of the "Carter Doctrine" and the latter was undesirable and unpalatable. So some intermediate means had to be found so the US settled on the "Bear Spares" programme where Israeli and Egyptian stockpiles of Soviet and Warsaw Pact weaponry, useless to either state (The Egyptian armed forces were now re-arming with US weapons) were passed down to Iraq. The French at the same time "leased" Super Etendard strike aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force to boost their strike capability.

All of the above was done as a balancing act to ensure that no side "won the war".

7. November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians.

Wow, shock, horror and amazement!!! Bad men do nasty things with nasty weapons!!! What the hell do you think chemical and biological weapons are for if not to be used against your enemies in time of war? Chemical and Biological weapons were developed both as offensive weapons and as a defensive measure against the type of "human wave" attacks favoured by the Iranians. At this stage in their war Iraq was in a corner and desperate.

8. December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support.

Ah got the date right this time round - Amos that statement is a bit different from the contention you quoted above isn't it? Where are the proclamations about Rumsfeld handing over chemical and biological weapons? Or are we to just left to inference that the assurance of materials support automatically meant the supply of chemical and biological weapons that the US did not have. The material support that Saddam and Iraq received direct from the USA was pretty slight and amounted to intelligence and planning.

9. July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops.

In military terms this amounts to providing satellite information of troop deployments and weather forecasts.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:16 AM

1. December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq.

These are light unarmoured helicopters, the US sales were of civilian helicopters, not the military versions. Italian subsidiary of Bell Helicopters, Bell Textron, informs the US embassy in Rome that it has declined a request from Iraq to militarize recently purchased Hughes helicopters. [Source: BATTLE, 2/25/2003]. Just for information the 60 Helicopters were delivered in December 1983, not 1982.

2. 1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments.

This is perfectly in line with US Foreign Policy for the region as defined by President Jimmy Carter and known internationally as the "Carter Doctrine".

3. November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran.

Once again in line with established US Foreign Policy, US interests, the interests of US Allies in the Arabian Gulf and with the general thinking of the United Nations. No-one wanted an outright victor in the Iran/Iraq War. Ensuring that one side does not lose does not necessarily mean that you will do everything in your power to ensure that that side wins.

4. Donald Rumsfeld -Reagan's Envoy- provided Iraq with chemical & biological weapons November, 1983.

I find it strange that anyone still offers this old chestnut up in discussion. It is as true as Iraqi soldiers pulling the plug on incubators in Kuwaiti Hospitals and the documentary evidence supplied to the US Intelligence Agencies by the British that Saddam attempted to buy Uranium Yellow Cake from Niger. Fact - Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein only ever met once. The actual meeting notes have been in the public domain now for years, and not once throughout the entire course of that 90 minute meeting are weapons for Iraq discussed, no weapons are offered, no weapons are requested. So I am sorry Amos but this dog just does not hunt - Donald Rumsfeld did not provide Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in November, 1983 or at any other time. The meeting by the way took place on the 20th of December, 1983 not November (That is a matter of record, but it illustrates the attention to detail paid by whatever source you used, they made a similar slip of one year with the helicopter delivery as well)

The purpose of Rumsfeld's visit was to attempt to re-establish diplomatic relations with Iraq and to also discusses US interest in the construction of the Iraq-Jordan Aqaba oil pipeline to be built by Bechtel.

Rumsfeld did not raise the subject of Iraqi use of chemical weapons with Saddam Hussein but he did mention to Tariq Aziz, Iraq's Foreign Minister in a separate meeting that US concerns about Iraq's chemical weapons, explaining that US "efforts to assist [Iraq]… [are] inhibited by certain things that made it difficult for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:07 PM

Look, we KNOW they had WMD's.....we ought to know....we have the receipts!!!....We just can find them!!!....and once it provided a 'politically acceptable reason' to invade, nobody gives a shit anyway!...and when we pull out, nobody will give a shit that we were there..including the Iraqis or the radicals.
Happy now?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:41 AM

OK then Amos go through your list and erase everything that is NOT a weapon.

By the way what information do you need to "calibrate" a chemical of biological attack? How would US forces personnel or the CIA know about mounting chemical or biological attacks? Where does this expertise come from?

The answers to the above:

The first is a weather forecast plain and simple.

The second is they don't never having used either chemical or biological weapons they would know nothing in practical terms about mounting such an attack or about using these weapons.

The CIA and US Forces have no expertise in deployment or use of such weapons.

In my time in the British armed forces not once did I ever see any chemical or biological munitions. Not once did I ever read or was I given any instruction in the storage, arming or handling of chemical or biological weapons. As part of NATO had any country within NATO had such munitions we at some point or other would have had to handle them so we would have been trained to do so - plain truth is we got no such training or instruction.

"Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs."

OK Amos care to list all the other things such items could be used for? No thought not, if you have to clear what you allow anyone else to purchase on the premise of what the worst thing they could do with it then trade stops. The premise is ridiculous.

Statement made was that the US and the UK sold Saddam Hussein the weapons with which he gassed the Kurds.

That statement is untrue, they did not. What Iraq bought by deception through many front companies and through a maze of false corporations through many countries (This by the way Bobert is what that post-graduate student's plagiarised thesis was about) were "dual use" items that the Iraqi's had to gather together inside Iraq and manufacture themselves.

I will go through your list and knock each item down from your hype to what it actually was, you will find that you are left with nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:01 PM

So, Amos, if yer facts are correct then the only thing we can assume is the T is full of sh*t???

Hey, we already knew that...

BTW, T... The heads on a stick was meant to be a joke... But, hey, I know you know that but I do appreciate you bringing it up... I loved that one and to have you bring it it makes me feel all sentimental... Sniff...

BTW, maybe we should attack someone else seein' as they have out ol' WMDs... Whaddayathink, T??? Maybe Syria??? Maybe a little "Shock % Awe" for Syria...

(But, Boberdz... Wasn't it Tony Baloney who provided that kids 20 year old term paper that go us into this mess???)

Okay, what if we bring a little "Shock & Awe" to Tony Baloney's neighborhood, T???

I mean, we ain't had no fisticuffs since 1812...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:41 PM

Col. Larry Wilkerson chief of staff to the Sec. of State Colin Powell as well as Powell himself both said this week that the CIA informant "curveball" has recently admitted to lying to them both reagrding Saddmam's WMDs.

Not only that but the Iraqi informant known as curveball did not testify before Americans but instead to German coalition generals.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:46 PM

December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq. [9]

1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments. [4]

November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. [1] & [15]


Donald Rumsfeld -Reagan's Envoy- provided Iraq with
chemical & biological weapons
November, 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. [14]

October, 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act. [16]

November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. [1]

December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support. [1] & [15]

July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. [19]

January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application. [2]

March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. [10]

May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. [3]

May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. [7]

March, 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. Oliver North uses the profits from the sale to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua. [17]

Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq. [1]

February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages. [8]

April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. [7]

August, 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. [6] & [13]


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:15 PM

I agree with you that money disappears. As to where it is and who's got it--good luck finding out. I know lots went to an American-based company; they were selling meals at something like $18 each. However, wars on foreign soil tend to be expensive. However, the fact remains that oil seems not to be the issue. Hell, let's go into business and sell MREs--what Clancy called three lies for the price of one--at $15 each.

I'm not going to suggest that there was no graft in the last fiasco in Iraq. I will ask for support that it had to do with oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM

They are not paying for reconstruction...we are. 10 billion dollars just vanished in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:21 PM

The "it was about oil" argument doesn't really stand up to the evidence.

In Op Iraqi Freedom, the push to protect oil wells was so that Iraq could pay for its restructuring and economic rebirth after Hussein was removed. If one looks at the numbers regarding US imports of oil, Iraq just ain't at the top of the list. In fact, it's down the list a ways.

However, people are gonna believe what the want. One of the beauties of democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:59 AM

[i]neither the US or the UK gave Saddam any Weapons, let alone Weapons of Mass Destruction, I have yet to see, or read any evidence that contradicts that statement. [/i]

They SOLD them a lot of stuff to make them with though. And that's well documented.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM

Bottom line, all rhetoric aside, the real problem was, they are squatting on OUR OIL!


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:51 AM

"During the inspections (remember them?) all we heard is that Saddam had to have WMDs because we had provided them to him???

Where on earth did you hear that Bobert the same place you heard about all thos Patriot missiles raining down on Baghdad, or the heads on sticks thing.

neither the US or the UK gave Saddam any Weapons, let alone Weapons of Mass Destruction, I have yet to see, or read any evidence that contradicts that statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:53 AM

Sorry--that should read Iraq. (And the likely receivers were Syria.)


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:25 AM

The authors of Cobra II made a good case that Hussein got the weapons OUT of Iran before the invasion--the one called Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The fact is he had none the invading Americans or British could locate. Nor did he use any on the US or UK when the invasion occurred. There were times the Americans really worried about the use of chem or bio weapons. It didn`t come to pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:21 AM

Make up your mind, T...

During the inspections (remember them?) all we heard is that Saddam had to have WMDs because we had provided them to him???

So what's the new story???

Did we or didn't we...

Will ya'll ever get your stories straight??? If there was a criminal prosecution all this story flipping would be called "obstruction of justice"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:25 AM

Ah the MYTH season is back with us:

"The Yanks, the Brits and the French SOLD AND DELIVERED THE WMDs to Iraq."

Care to provide any examples of these weapons sales? And I mean the sale of weapons, not precursors sold for an entirely different purpose. The UK to my certain knowledge has possessed no chemical or biological weapons capability since the mid-1950's. Making chemical and biological warfare agents is relatively easy and they are required to test counter-measures and this work in the UK was performed at Porton Down. The tricky bit is to make them into weapons which of course you do not have to do purely for testing your defences against such weapons (you want to know that your suits and repirators work against the deployed agent)

"Good lord! Where do you think SadMan got the gas to kill his own people?"

The Iraqi's made it themselves. Just as easily as they made fertiliser.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM

There were no WMD found. Period. However, when Iraq was about to be invaded the Iraqi army was working furiously to clean ALL areas where WMD may have been. Indeed, Hussein was projecting the picture that Iraq had them--and he was happy to do so. I am glad that piece of shit is dead. It was not about imperialism--it was about global terrorism. I think Rumsfeld was the biggest fuckup the US ever had as a defence secretary, and Cheney was little more than a capitalist SOB. Bush--other than being stupid and easily led by his SecDef and VP--had serious concerns, many based on erroneous information supplied by the CIA and other agencies who should have had spooks on the ground instead of depending on eyes in the skies. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM

Art... "The idea that they existed but were somehow moved at the last minute to Syria or Libya is as much a fairy tale as the stories of squadrons of new Soviet-era fighters cocooned and buried in the desert."

The Yanks, the Brits and the French SOLD AND DELIVERED THE WMDs to Iraq. Good lord! Where do you think SadMan got the gas to kill his own people?

Here's a question... why were Bliar and Quackdaffy shaking hands not long after the invasion?

Hmmm... my front door cannot be opened because of the snow. I wish I had a WMD to clear it as I have a bad back. Must go mess with the snow and ignore the problems I cannot deal with.

Have fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:02 PM

"That war was fought over the usual grand imperial objectives (resources, land, regional and political control, etc)...not over some nonexistent fear of Iraq's wretchedly puny ability to defend itself with advanced weapons." - Little Hawk

The usual imperial objectives eh??

What "resources" did the USA come away with then? None as far as I can see.

What "land" has the USA acquired? None as far as I can determine.

Does the US have any greater control over the region or political direction within the region than it had before? Nope, just about the same, I'd say.

I had to laugh at this bit:

"not over some nonexistent fear of Iraq's wretchedly puny ability to defend itself with advanced weapons."

It wasn't Iraq's puny ability to DEFEND itself that was the problem was it? It was the potential for Iraq to supply a terrorist group with WMD in secret for that terrorist group to use against targets inside the USA that posed the problem. After all post 11th September 2001 any attack particularly any "terrorist spectacular" on the USA would be put down to who? Who would be the first name in the frame? Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda correct? Giving Saddam plenty of wriggle room for denial.

As far as people lying about Iraq's WMD, please remember that Saddam Hussein himself admitted that between 1991 and 2003 he did everyhting in his power to convince his neighbours and the world at large that Iraq still possessed WMD and the means to deliver them. People then cannot be blamed for believing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:44 PM

Ah Sugarfoot, don't you read anything at all??

Tell me the period covered by that report by UNMOVIC? Did you notice it at all? 1st March to 31st May 2004. A report by UNMOVIC to the United Nations regarding the work being carried out in Iraq by the Iraq Survey Group, which had nothing whatsoever to do with UNSCOM; UNMOVIC or indeed the United Nations.

That being the case, please tell me at what point is my statement about UNSCOM and UNMOVIC not being in Iraq to search for and find WMD incorrect?

After all according to the directions detailed in UNSCR 687 and 1441 Saddam Hussein and Ba'athist Regime in Iraq were supposed to have:

1. Made a full and frank declaration and account of the status of their WMD programmes.

2. Taken the UNMOVIC Inpectors to the sites and locations, where WMD were stored, manufactured or disposed of

3. Provide UNMOVIC Inpectors with verifiable documentary evidence of the destruction of any WMD agents or weapons.

4. Provide answers accounting for any anomalies or points of clarification raised by UNMOVIC Inspectors in the course of their work

Now had the Iraqi authorities complied with all of that there would be no need for UNMOVIC to play "hide-and-seek" would there??

"This means they were proactively seeking out WMDs. They went to Iraq to find WMD's - The Iraq Survey Group DID - UNSCOM & UNMOVIC DID NOT - get it right Sugarfoot lad.

Ask yourself the reason why The Iraq Survey Group had to look and search - because when they started their work, after the invasion there were NO IRAQI AUTHORITIES IN PLACE TO CO-OPERATE WITH - you muppet, pay attention to detail, it sometimes helps when putting an argument together.


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM

"not facts but fatoids."

Are Fatoids what Fatheads ingest?



I'll get me hat ....


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Subject: RE: BS: WMDs WERE found in Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:17 PM

Not the war crimes, TIA...

The proof that Bush was lieing thru his teeth...

B~


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