Could stars be sentient beings?!?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 02:34 AM

Daylia - In my cosmology, what you say you witnessed (in the original post) was a soul falling from heaven to earth, and somewhere, a child was born.

Sounds like a pretty old story to me.

I'm a believer.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 03:55 AM

Twinkle, twinkle little star,
I don't wonder what you are
For by the spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen

The rush from rational thought gathers pace. Back to the believing Middle Ages.

It's easier to make it up as you go along, at least in the short term.

J o'L, you swim like a buttercup with a hyena and a motorbike for parents. I don't have to prove it; that would merely be using western human logic.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:05 AM

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say Paul, but people as certain as you are frighten the crap out of me.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:16 AM

Logic says that there is just one reality, yet dreamers have a different reality. Logic says there is nothing in the blank space

















yet my eyes see that contained therein a beautiful flower. And if I was an artist, I could show you.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:21 AM

I'm not at all certain. What I'm saying is that you don't deal with uncertainty by claiming that if we don't know everything, we don't know anything, and so any description is as good as any other. There are means of determining the "truth" (however you define that) of different versions, and so ranking one explanation as better (for that definition) than others.

Daylia's poetic vision of stars is just that: poetry. Which is better than science (at the moment) for talking about most things that involve the mental process that we call the soul. But are stars sentient in any useful sense of that word? Probably not, though my main reasons for saying so are the bad argument that it's difficult to imagine a mechanism by which a ball of fusing hydrogen could be sentient, and the perhaps better argument that there's not much point in being sentient when you are entirely at the mercy of gravitational fields, and have no choice in what you do.

Is Daylia sentient? Of course, beautifully. Could a fusion reaction many light years away have anything to do with a bit of dust burning up in the atmosphere just where Daylia happened to be looking? No.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:20 AM

Whichever definition you choose is always going to be an educated guess, informed by your culture, education, etc.
I think it's foolhardy to cut yourself off from the possibility that something apparently unlikely might actually happen, like Mum being a motorbike for example, or other relationships not quite so obvious.
How'd you know about that anyway?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 07:29 AM

I read it in the stars, of course.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Grab
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 08:34 AM

If the stars are umpty-tum zillion miles away, what have they to do with "shooting stars", which are some object hitting the Earth's atmosphere?

Are stars sentient? Possibly - who knows. Are shooting stars sentient? Again, possibly. Re-entry for a capsule or shuttle apparently makes a pretty good show. I couldn't discount the possibility that some shooting stars are alien spacecraft entering Earth's atmosphere. How likely are both of those? Well, pretty damn unlikely really, but I couldn't refute the possibility.

But were the shooting stars inspired to dive into the upper atmosphere due to the stars umpty-tum zillion miles away having some gratitude to Daylia? Sorry, that's a step too far for me. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:06 AM

daylia,

Back in the 60s the great Science Fiction writers, Frederick Pohl and Jack Williamson, wrote a trilogy of novels: "The Reefs of Space", "Rogue Star" and "Starchild". In these novels 'stars' (ie. 'suns' - as opposed to planets or meteors - the difference is pretty fundamental) turn out to be sentient beings.
If you want to explore your notion further you might like to start with these books (not sure if they're still in print, though). I'm pretty certain that other SF writers have also used the same idea.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:41 AM

I read those and was enchanted with the notion of living stars.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:43 AM

"It's a pretty reckless suggestion that everything in the universe must conform to the rules of human logic"

well, I don't know that anyone actually suggested that. But if you worry that they did, you should also worry that anyone believes that there is anything 'in the universe that does not conform to the rules of human logic'. Either concept is unprovable as it stands. However, what we HAVE is human logic, and to suggest that there are things outside it, just because we can conceive of the idea, is also a bit reckless.

People are often fond of saying things like "nothing is impossible"....and I understand their point, as new stuff is discovered everyday that we didn't know before, but taking the phrase literally is more than reckless; it is a distortion of both linguistics and physics/mathematics. We gradually expand our horizions of what IS possible, but I doubt that we will likely to ever be able to sharpen an axe on a peeled banana. (plain, peeled, not artifically hardened..etc..)

The imagination expressed in poetry, art, literature...etc. is important, as it is a major defining aspect of BEING human, but being able to weave our imagination into complex forms that we can't actually create or experience often lures us into unfounded beliefs about their possibility. Yes, it 'can' help us explore, discover and test what IS possible, but it's best to beware mistaking the linguistic expression for the reality.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:52 AM

(oh...and I read ALL those old Sci-fi books also, from Blish to Pohl to Herbert to Vance to Niven...etc...and I was enchanted, amazed and energized. I WANTED those concepts to be real and accessible....mind reading, faster-than-light travel, alternate universes, alien technology. I just never assumed that anything they could dream up was sort of automatically possible..)

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 10:02 AM

Reality at the quantum level or multiple dimensional model is NOT human logic freindly at all. There is little that could be deemed intuitive on those scales. Surprise is the only norm.

Still there is the finding that intent creates more than we expect.
The wish come true (the what the bleep do we know scenario) is alluring.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 10:15 AM

We can all agree that portions of the Earth are sentient.

The other night a large gold light glowed brightly on one side of the sky with the half moon overhead while the other side of the sky had a bigger brighter intense blue white light shining brilliantly.

I recognized them as Mars, our moon and Venus. My "knowing and seeing" can be viewed as sentience.

"knowing, feeling and seeing" may be far more variable than our idea of knowing...

or not

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 10:59 AM

"portions of the Earth are sentient."

Fallacy of Equivocation

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 02:50 PM

WOw, so many great insights here! Thank you all so much, pressed for time but for now ...

Reality at the quantum level or multiple dimensional model is NOT human logic freindly at all. There is little that could be deemed intuitive on those scales. Surprise is the only norm.

Still there is the finding that intent creates more than we expect.
The wish come true (the what the bleep do we know scenario) is alluring.

Yes it is, and it seems human minds are conditioned to think this way from infancy up. I wonder if there are "equivalents" of this nursery rhyme in other languages ...

"Star light star bright
First star I see tonight
I wish I may I wish I might
Have the wish I wish tonight"

Could be seen as harmless fun, stimulating the creative imagination ... or as a nugget of wisdom ... or even as a form of mental abuse, I suppose.

I wonder ... are philosopher's kids less likely to be exposed to such fallacies?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:21 PM

The real miracle would be if the results of the observations cause any member of each of the four groups to change groups.

Will you be calling to all stars or just the ones that still exist? How will you tell the difference? ;o)

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:56 PM

Shooting stars aren't stars at all. They're meteors. Chunks of rock burning up in our high atmosphere as they hurtle towards our planet, drawn in by its immense gravitional pull. Up till then, floating peacefully in the freezing vaccuum of interplanetary space.

If they're sentient beings, then you are witnessing the quick immolation death of them. All just for your amusement.

Sure.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM

I think the real question to be answered here is not whether or not lumps of rock or clouds of gas have brains, but whether or not there is a real interactive relationship between all things made of matter.

There is always at least one thread on the go here at the 'Cat which comes down to this essential question, and the four groups identified earlier all march out like little soldiers and fire off their salvoes.
I'd like to see some kind of experiment happen, and like BigPinkLad, I'd love to see someone change groups. I nearly did just recently. It caused me a great deal of angst, but I'm back now where I belong, so that's OK.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM

Could stars be sentient beings?!?

I always thought Jaclyn Smith was very sensuous, until she sold out to K-Mart.

I guess the same thing happened with Martha Stewart....and she went to prison for it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM

Britney, on the other hand, never was close....

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:37 PM

As a sentient portion of the Earth for a little while longer I found your link to the fallacy of equivication could imply that we as people have a right to life and are all as important as an appendix.

that may be giving us too much credit.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:43 PM

well, Donuel...we all derive different things from these links..*grin*

but you may be right.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:00 PM

Hmmm...so perhaps Captain Beefheart could be right.....

We are matter
The stars are matter
It doesn't really matter

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:17 PM

'Shooting "Stars"' - are of course not "stars", but meteorites...

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:18 PM

We are made of starstuff   ~~~Carl Sagan

We are stardust; We are golden...   ~~~Joni Mitchell

Don't you know that you are a shooting star?   ~~~Bad Company

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:24 PM

Stardust is what gets expelled when a star gets indigestion.

Bulldust is what gets expelled when a bull artist ...

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:55 PM

'All of it matters or none of it does.' - Steinbeck

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 10:43 PM

Just found the full text:

"We take a tiny colony of soft corals from a rock in a little water world. And that isn't terribly important to the tide pool. Fifty miles away the Japanese shrimp boats are dredging with overlapping scoops, bringing up tons of shrimps, rapidly destroying the species so that it may never come back, and with the species destroying the ecological balance of the whole region. That isn't very important in the world. And thousands of miles away the great bombs are falling and the stars are not moved thereby. None of it is important or all of it is."

- The Log From The Sea Of Cortez

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 10:51 PM

"Seen a shooting star tonight, and I thought of you..." - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:06 AM

Such star-studded poems and prose here, just gotta add this one:

"It's lovely to live on a raft. We had the sky up there, all speckled with stars, and we used to lay on our backs and look up at them, and discuss about whether they was made or only just happened. Jim he allowed they was made, but I allowed they happened; I judged it would have took too long to make so many. Jim said the moon could 'a' laid them; well, that looked kind of reasonable, so I didn't say nothing against it, because I've seen a frog lay most as many, so of course, it could be done. We used to watch the stars that fell, too, and see them streak down. Jim allowed they'd got spoiled and was hove out of the nest."

- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Mark Twain)

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:15 AM

There is always at least one thread on the go here at the 'Cat which comes down to this essential question, and the four groups identified earlier all march out like little soldiers and fire off their salvoes.
I'd like to see some kind of experiment happen, and like BigPinkLad, I'd love to see someone change groups.

The more I think about it, the more I want to see the experiment happen too. It would be fun! And it might shed some light on human nature and the power of intentions/expectations, and maybe on the nature of the stars themselves too.

So far, we've got a number of willing "star-struck wonderers" - Azizi, LH, dianavan, Peace, and myself. And we've got one philosophical scientific type - that's you, Bill! (And thanks for offering to objectively - or at least I HOPE objectively   ;-) - critique the results based on the principles of logic. A most valuable contribution!)

But we need more blustery nay-sayers and die-hard skeptics. WHere are you, Wolfgang? WE NEED YOUR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTISE!!!

And you, eric? HOw bout you, Amos? And I'd LOVE to have you as a subject, Joe! I want to see SRS here, and John In Kansas. Clinton Hammond and gargoyle, too (as blusterers, probably). ANd freda, and JennyO, and maybe katlaughing if she's up to it ...

At any rate, we need a balanced number of "nay-sayers" and "wonderers". PLEASE NOTE THAT BEING A 'BELIEVER' is NOT A PREREQUISITE FOR JOINING THE "WONDERERS" GROUP(S). Then we can finalize dates and method.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

OK what kind of experiment? What are you going to test, how are you going to measure it, what kind of controls will be in place?

I'll take part in a properly designed experiment!

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:00 AM

I'm in if you want me! However, I come down on the side of the "star-struck wonderers", and you already have more of those than anybody else. Having said that, I also have a good dose of "philosophical scientific type" in me, and I would be especially interested in it from a scientific point of view.

I have a feeling it will be hard for you to get a balance of the different types. The "blustery nay-sayers and die-hard skeptics" might not be so inclined to bother.

I'll keep following this thread to see how it's going.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:05 AM

Paul, this is so weird - I was just going to add this PS to my last post (as follows). I clicked back on the thread, here you already are!   :-D

...Is Daylia sentient? Of course, beautifully. Could a fusion reaction many light years away have anything to do with a bit of dust burning up in the atmosphere just where Daylia happened to be looking? No

I wanted to thank you for your kind words (and you too, Peace *sniff sniff*) and tell you that, for me anyway, yours is the most convincing "argument against" I've read here yet.

Just want to clarify that I DO (and did) know that shooting stars are not stars but meteors. I was still more than a bit blown away by what just happened when I started this thread, not thinking in specifics but generalities.

BTW this kind of thing HAS happened to me before, too - for one example, see the incident re my son Eric posted above (13 Nov 12:05 pm) But this is the first time I've ever told anyone about it ....

Re the experiment, my initial idea was posted Nov 13 too as follows ...

here's an idea ... how about getting a representative sample of Catters together - say, 4 logical, feet-on-the-ground scientific souls like Wolfgang, 4 philosophical-quasi-spiritual types like Amos, 4 blustery nay-sayers like eric, and 4 star-struck, open-minded wonderers like myself.

We all agree to spend a few minutes outside each night for 4 nights, gazing at the stars until we feel totally mesmerized by the mysterious beauty over our heads. Then, when those feelings are at a peak, we call out to the skies "Oh Stars, thank you for your beauty ... I LOVE YOU!!"   (or something to that effect, although I suspect the "I love you" part might be essential).   And keep accurate records of any observed "results".

Then we tally up how many, if any, shooting stars or other celestial phenomena "answered" us back. The results just may indicate whether the ancient wise ones all over the globe have been correct in their beliefs about the stars once and for all!

Any takers? Just sign up here. And rest assured that I, for one, promise not to ridicule anybody!

So far, the only "controls" I've come up with are to be sure we have equal representation from each group, that we DON'T pick nights when there's a "peak" meteor shower expected (don't want stars falling out of the sky everytime we say BOO), and that we all follow the same "method".

I have an undergraduate degree in psych, but the key word here is UNDERgraduate. I'm a music teacher, NOT a scientist, don't know all the logistics of setting up an experiment properly.

And that's why we need Wolfgang ... or someone like Wolfgang. How bout you, Metchosin? MUst have put together lots of successfull experiments during all that worm-gazing! (I LOVE Your story, btw ... thank you so much for sharing it!)

daylia

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: MMario
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:11 AM

I'm so confused by this thread - postulated is intelligent stars, with possible evidence being "shootign stars" which are an atmospheric phenomenen caused by the friction heating of meteoric material as it falls to earth -

since stars are a minimum of 4 light years away - to have a near earth response at this distance presumes not only sentience, butthe breaking of sevedral other currenlty accepted physical "laws" including light-speed.

On the other hand - see 'A Wrinkle In Time'

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:17 AM

Thanks, Jenny - and you're right too. I DO hope there's a few "nay-sayers" and "skeptics" here with enough imagination and flexibility to give it a whirl!

Sorry bout the confusion re meteor/stars, MMario ... I just tried to explain it above. Would you please consider taking part in the experiment?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:44 AM

we philosophical/scientific types wish to point out that right about now is tilted in favor OF seeing 'replies'....and August is even worse. I once camped outside Denver in August at about 8000 ft, and there were meteors every few seconds!

http://www.amsmeteors.org/showers.html#2005

How do we pick a time that is fair?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

A comment here: Someone once said that if the stars came out only once every twenty years, that night NO ONE would go to bed.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 12:21 PM

and one of the best sc-fi stories ever written was "Nightfall" by Isaac Asimov, about a planet with several suns, where the stars were only seen every few THOUSAND years, when all the suns set at the same time....the 'awe' resulted in the downfall of civilization.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 12:23 PM

Then there's Triffids ...

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM

Your illogical approach to astronomy does have its advantages on occasion, Daylia. To assist with your experiment, I shall exercise far greater caution in where I throw my rocks in the future than was the case last Sat night.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 02:19 PM

I think the key is wonder. When we cease to do that we may as well cease, period. I love people who still have that sense. Of course, what we wonder about is different for all of us. A story I use for younger readers is "All Summer in a Day". It's by Ray Bradbury.

"The story deals with a group of schoolchildren residing on an inhabited, tropical Venus at an unspecified future time. The thick atmosphere of Venus still exists at this time, and it is constantly raining, so seeing the sun is a very rare event which occurs only every seven years. The events of the story describe the children's actions on the day that the sun was to appear for the first time in their lives that they can remember. They were only two years old the last time the sun appeared." [from Wikipedia]

Wonder.

Deja Thoris will always have a place in my heart because I know I coulda done a better job saving her than Carter. OK, so maybe she would not have been impressed by a nine-year-old, but age was no never mind in those days. Carson of Venus? Pshaw. I have been to Barsoom, Venus, outer space, the edge of the galaxy and even into the future. I have also been into the past. I fought with Blackbeard (for and against on alternate days as fancy dictated) and met Tom when he had the boys painting the fence. Sense of wonder. It has led me down paths that span the spaces between hearts, stars, even realities. I'm fifty-eight, and regardless how long I live I will always remember the civilizations I saved on planets since forgotten and the pirates I defeated in those battles on seas long ago.

Thanks for reminding me of this stuff, Daylia.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 04:48 PM

I once saw proof positive that "shooting stars" may respond to humankind. It was in the fall of 1968, in Clarksville, Arkansas. A group of us were in the town cemetary, somewhere around midnight. Bill laid down on a stone slab. Richard, An Italian atheist from Brooklyn looked up to the sky, and began a bizzare, poetic, rather pornographic "eulogy" for Bill: Something about "As he swings out into eternity on the clitoris of the infinite" Just then two shooting stars crossed overhead. Richard paused, then said "Just kidding".
   Disprove the significance of that, ye cynics!

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 04:49 PM

Well I probably fall into the category of "ignorant" wonderer, but I also have a scientific bent too, with a lot of holes in that as well.

The trouble is when I see stuff like this, my mind wanders into quantum physics, big bang or Arpian redshift doubts and stable universe coupled and a few pages of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, a smattering of eastern religion and a few Outer Limits shows tossed in for good measure and then overlayed with, is all this the face of God?.

It's really a pain to have such a cluttered brain, that is no farther ahead in understanding these things now, than when I first started thinking about it in grade 8 science.

Then, I felt pretty enlightened when I'd doodled on my text book cover what I thought was an astute link between the macrocosm and the microcosm, until a friend pointed out that all my doodles were based on a model of the Bore atom and if I had half a brain I would know that the Schrodinger atom was now CAT.

Which is probably why, when pressed, I usually just go with the emotional gut reaction of, "Wow! isn't it wonderful!" because Argh! my brain hurts!

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

I'm David a friend visiting Joy and was musing about this discussion and thought I'd make a contribution. Stars may or may not be sentient beings but sentient beings are made of stars!!!!

The only naturally occurring element in the universe is hydrogen all other elements are made as the result of nuclear fusion in, use guessed it STARS!!!

Have a look at your own chemical make up, you are made of stars and are presumambly sentient to a greater or lesser degree.

One day I'll get round to righting that song, "I think we came from the stars"

Happy star gazing one and all remember where you cam from

David

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 05:12 PM

Anyone read "Whipping Star" by, I think, Frank Herbert?

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 05:17 PM

yes...I have read that. I had almost forgotten about it. It is an interesting story....but HIGHLY imaginative.

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 05:57 PM

The pop/rock song "We are stardust" is about 30 years old...

Subject: RE: Could stars be sentient beings?!?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 06:03 PM

And not to forget , we are covered with and probably breath "star dust" as tons of debris from space enter our atmosphere every day. Wow! We're Tinkerbelles!