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BS: KatrinaGate

Amos 03 Feb 06 - 12:05 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,G 02 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,G 02 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM
Bobert 28 Jan 06 - 07:43 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:53 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:34 PM
Bobert 28 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM
Old Guy 27 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM
Bobert 27 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM
Old Guy 27 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM
Bobert 26 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jan 06 - 11:29 PM
Bobert 25 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM
Bobert 24 Jan 06 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 24 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM
Amos 24 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM
Old Guy 20 Jan 06 - 02:32 PM
Bobert 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 19 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 17 Jan 06 - 09:55 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,G 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM
Azizi 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM
Azizi 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM
Bobert 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,G 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM
Old Guy 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:05 AM

Washington -- Responsibility for the government's bungled response to Hurricane Katrina extends widely but begins at the top of the Bush administration, which failed before the storm to name a White House, homeland security or other senior aide in command of the looming disaster, congressional investigators reported Wednesday.

Four years after the Sept. 11, attacks, administration officials did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency; disregarded early warnings of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and southeast Louisiana; and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the Aug. 29 storm, according to the Government Accountability Office.

"A single individual -- directly responsible and accountable to the president of the United States -- should be dedicated to act as the central focal point to lead and coordinate the overall federal response," GAO chief David Walker said, summarizing preliminary findings from 30 pending Katrina-related studies.

The blistering report represents the first official findings on the government's performance in Katrina. It is the first of a series of reviews in coming weeks that are expected to fix blame and refocus scrutiny on the administration's handling of the nation's costliest natural disaster, which killed 1,307 people and caused more than $150 billion in damage along the Gulf Coast. ...

(SFO Chroniclle)

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM

Bobert: Are we on the same planet?

About the Office of Emergency Preparedness
Mission statement:
The [New Orleans]Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans.

Our primary responsibility is to advise the Mayor, the City Council and Chief Administrative Officer regarding emergency preparedness activities and operations.We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to city-wide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan.

All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office.

Our authority is defined by the Louisiana Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, Chapter 6 Section 709, Paragraph B:

"Each Parish shall maintain a disaster agency which, except as otherwise provided under this act, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish."

Hurricane Evacuation Guidelines

The Greater New Orleans Area is faced with a difficult challenge during an evacuation due to the city's large population and limited road system which is susceptible to flooding.

That is why the Office of Emergency Preparedness, urges people to "Plan to Be Safe" by voluntarily evacuating "high risk areas" before a recommended evacuation. See the high risk areas.

If you plan to evacuate, leave as early as possible, before hurricane gale force winds, heavy rainfall and storm surge cause road closings.

There are three phases of evacuation: precautionary, recommended, and mandatory. An evacuation notice will be issued when a hurricane is forecast to present a danger to the Greater New Orleans Area. When this notice to evacuate will be issued, depends on the landfall probability in this area and also on the speed and severity of the storm.

    * State Evacuation Maps
    * General Evacuation Guidelines

Here is the big one too large to cut and paste and Bobert will be too lazy to read:

Office of Homeland Security and
Emergency Preparedness
APRIL 2005

..............1.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will develop plans, procedures, arrangements and agreements to ensure that the activities required by ESF 3 can be carried out effectively and efficiently.

2.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will initiate contacts with other state agencies and organizations, in particular, the Department of Natural Resources and the United States Department of Agriculture � Natural Resources Conservation Service (USDA � NRCS) to ensure cooperation in emergencies and disasters.

3.        The ESF 3 will work with emergency organizations such as LOHSEP and regional emergency task forces to ensure that the state�s infrastructure is adequate to support traffic flows in large scale evacuations. Particular attention will be paid to hurricane evacuation routes in the southern part of the state. Levees and flood control structures will be designed, built and maintained to contain potential large scale floods.

C.        RESPONSE:

1.        When an emergency is imminent, the ESF 3 Coordinator will assess the potential impact of the threat on the state�s infrastructure and work with other authorities to ensure that any necessary immediate repairs or arrangements for critical structures and facilities are initiated.

2.        If a hurricane emergency develops, the ESF 3 Coordinator will work with all state and local authorities to manage evacuation of people in the threatened area(s).

3.        As the emergency progresses, the Coordinator will monitor the status of the infrastructure and effect emergency repairs where needed and feasible.

4.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will monitor the status of debris on critical evacuation routes and initiate emergency debris clearance and repairs to save lives where needed and feasible............

The particular state plan for the NO area is a separate document which has mysteriously "disappeared" from the state website so we can't see if it was followed or not:

SUPPLEMENTS PUBISHED SEAPARATLY:                                                                                        
1A - Southeast Louisiana Hurricane and Evacuation Plan

So to be blunt Bobert, you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you say there was no plan.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

First, Old Guy, younare more intellegent than yeer last post.. Maybe someone is using her handle... What, are you going to tell me that N.O.'s should have a had a plan ready to impliment if the largest natural disaster of our life time hit them??? Hey, lets get real here... Where do you live??? Nearest large city please will do... And what plan is in place in that city in the case of a disaster???

Well, it don't atter much what city it is... The answer is "none"!!!
Not even Washington, D.C. has such a plan... Cities are not finacially able to have this kind of stuff all worked out... And, evn if they did have the dough to handle a disaster, they are still very much dependent on neighbors to cooperate...

I thought that was one of the lessons learned by 9/11... Well. you'd sure think so by the number of times that Bush pumped out his cheat and said, "My job is to protect the American people!!!"

No, G-zer, rather than ask me just stay tuned as the rest of the story will unfold... Just yesterday, the Govewrnment Accountability Office (GAO) released a scathing report that said:

1. the administration did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency..

2, disregarded early warnings of of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and South Lousinana

3. and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the August 29th storm...


And Representtaive Thomas Davis (R-Va.) stated, "The Director... of the National Hurricane Center said this was the big one... but when it happened, Bush is in Texas, Card is in Maine, the vice-prsident is fly-fishing. I mean, who's in charge here?" And this from a Repub???

As fir **exactly** what the feds were supposed to be doing, G-zer, stay tuned as the Nastional Response Plan get's it 15 minutes of fame...

But so far, there is nothing that I originally posted here that has been proven to be incorrect... Might of facy, as time goes on, more and more of what I argued is falling into place...

Oh, BTW, how many references to Katrina did Bush make in his State of Union Address???



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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM

Okay, please tell us, sccording to the NPR, what the Feds are supposed to do "2 days" before Katrina made landfall. Two or three examples will suffuce and be sure not to include the semi loads of equipment enroute to the area prior to landfall.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM

Well first the state and local governments have to be overwhelmed.

I suppose if they sit on ther asses and screw everything up from the getgo, they are overwhelmed in your opinion.

How about that big cut and paste of 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM containingg facts you don't want anybody to see?

It tells how state and local officials pissed away money for the levees on other stuff and they could not match federal money for the levees. It is gross incompetence in financial matters. I guess they were "overwhelmed".

In your opinion incompetent = overwhelmed which means the Feds have to do everything for them like taking care of a retard.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM

Nah, G-zer... I think it's you who ain't doing the readeratin' here...

If you go back to the very first post in this thread I made reference to the National Response Plan... This plan, written by the Bush folks incidently, looked at scenerios where state and local resources/gevernemnts were overwhelmed by a disaster and how the federal government would act in that case...

Whether or jot the state and locals were overwhelmed with Katrina can and will continue to be debated... But that is not the issue... The issue is that, given that Michale Brown spoke directly with Bush on two full days before Katrina warning Bush of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 most likely coming thru N.O., given the National Repsonse Plan, this should have set some actions in motion...

But as we now learn, this didn't occur for another 3 days... These three days may end up being like the 18 minutes of missing Nixon tapes but I don't think so... There's way to much information out there, including notes from the White House in regards to Governor Blanko's communictations which the White House has cherry picked thru and sitting on the remainder (think Cheney's notes on the "Energy Policy" here...)...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM

Oops. Here is the link to the Missing plan

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM

Joe has a 30" screen now so you can't use that excuse to keep the real facts from getting to the readers of your thread.

You have to refresh your own threads. Nobody else will. What happened to your medigate thread?

Who was responsible for evacuating N.O. before Katrina hit?

Cut and pastes that Bobert does not want you to see:

Questions have also been raised, for example, over the failure of New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin to order the city's fleet of school buses into action to evacuate residents, many of whom live below the poverty line and had no means of fleeing independently, before the storm hit.

Then there is the mystery as to why Kathleen Blanco, the Democrat Louisiana governor who attempted to shift the spotlight from herself to the White House by threatening to punch the President, refused to send in National Guard troops in any significant number to assist the post-flood rescue and evacuation effort. Even now, she still refuses to sign them into federal control so that their contribution can be better co-ordinated.

According to Senator Landrieu, Mayor Nagin's evacuation was the best evacuation I've seen, I've never seen one any better.
It was the Bush administration's fault that hundreds of city school buses weren't dispatched to evacuate the hurricane-battered residents of New Orleans before floods swamped the city.

Asked on why New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin failed to follow the city's evacuation plan and press the buses into service, Landrieu blamed Bush administration cuts in mass transit funding.

Landrieu: "In other words, this administration did not believe in mass transit. They won't even get people to work on a sunny day, let alone getting them out."

Saying she was unwilling to criticize Louisiana officials, the Louisiana Democrat insisted that Mayor Nagin's evacuation efforts had been a smashing success.

Because the mayor evacuated the city, we had the best evacuation of any evacuation I've seen. I'm 50 years old; I've never seen one any better

When reminded that were a hundred thousand people left in the city, Landrieu once again blamed the White House by saying They did [have] a hundred thousand people left in the city because this federal government won't support cities to evacuate people, whether it's from earthquakes, tornadoes, or hurricanes. And that's the truth.

On August 26 Mayor Nagin advised New Orleanians to keep a close eye on the storm and prepare for evacuation. He made various statements encouraging people to leave without officially calling for an evacuation throughout the 27th, and issued a voluntary evacuation request late in the day. He stressed the potential danger posed by Katrina by saying "This is not a test. This is the real deal." He was hesitant to order a mandatory evacuation because of concerns about the city's liability for closing hotels and other businesses.

The actual plan was here but it has been deleted for some "strange" reason.

Elections for Mayor and City Council members had been schedualed for November 2005, but these were postponed due to the devastation after Katrina and the many New Orleanians still living out of the city. New elections are schedualed for April 22, 2006.

A native of a working-class section of the city's Algiers neighborhood, Mr. Nagin, 49 years old, was a cable-television executive before his election. Although a lifelong Democrat, he was friendly to Republicans, contributing to Mr. Bush's 2000 bid and endorsing Ms. Blanco's Republican opponent in 2003.
After Katrina, Mr. Nagin turned to a cadre of other political newcomers and business leaders who had backed his campaign. Pivotal among them was Joseph Canizaro, a commercial real-estate developer who is personally close to the president and top political adviser Karl Rove.
At that point, he says, he decided he shouldn't rely on the governor or other state officials. "It suddenly dawned on me: What game should I be playing? How do I get this done?"

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Yes, the tide is rolling but it is going to batter the State and local officials.

26 Jan 5:33, OG said "Ignored by State, city and local officials"

Boberts' reply said "Failure of State, city and Federal officials" at 6:30.

Bobert, I don't believe you really read the other posts here or you are totally misinformed. However, I am going to give you the 'benefit of the the doubt' and think you are playing Devils advocate. If that is not the case, then you have to be Twins 'cause one person couldn't be this F'in stupid.

I just wonder what your position will be when the dust has settled and the real truth is out.

Oh, one more thing, can you not visualize the the National Response plan is designed to provide asistance once an area decides it is overwhelmed which usually requires the disaster to hit first?

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM

Well, well, well...

Like the tides coming in this one is slowly but surely making it's way to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with now even the corporate media reporting that Chertoff was AWOL....

Hmmmmmm, who could be next in the tide's way???

Plus, nice to keep this little scandal refreshed now and then as the noose tightens...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:43 PM

Red herring, GUEST...

First, as Joe Offer has asked over and over, please don't post long cut 'n pastes... The rule is if it won't fir on screen then it's too long...

Plus, unlike Arne, I'm not going to get into them long, well corporate financed blogs that 99% oif the time are 100% behind the Bushites... Must be nice to be that well financed that you can afford to pay folks to take sh*t and spin it into Long "Tropic of Cancer" length reems of Shinola....

So you are going to place Bush's entire defense in the hands a of Peggy Wilson?

Yes ____

No _____

Ahhhh, just who controls the levees and who is responsible for them?

N.O. ________

Don Duck ______

The Federal Governemnt _______

Like I said, red herring....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:53 PM

October 18, 2005
Inept New Orleans Officials

Could it be that corrupt and inept city officials contributed greatly to all the deaths and injuries caused by Hurricane Katrina? According to a former president of the New Orleans City Council and former Orleans Levee Board member that is exactly the case.

Peggy Wilson, a New Orleans city councilwoman from 1986 through 1998 and later a governor-appointed Orleans Levee Board member, has given a candid account this week on what the mainstream media has failed to say regarding the big storm's devastating effect.

Wilson said that the levee board was well-funded but the money was not spent on levee maintenance and improvements like it should have. Rather, the board focused on widening bridges and making other accommodations for riverboat casinos, which not surprisingly, are a major source of the levee board's funding.

She also said that some board members, including the chairman of the board, had personal relationships with companies that were contracted to perform unnecessary services for the board.

As for the most inept official, Wilson believes that title belongs to New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, who she says is not corrupt but rather "he didn't know anything about city government or how to run a city….Its just the most unbelievable ineptness."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

Research into more than ten years of reporting on hurricane and flood damage mitigation efforts in and around New Orleans indicates that local and state officials did not use federal money that was available for levee improvements or coastal reinforcement and often did not secure local matching funds that would have generated even more federal funding.

In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes.

"In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects."

The levee board promised Times-Picayune readers that the "few manageable gaps" in the walls protecting the city from Mother Nature's waters "will be sealed within four years (1999) completing our circle of protection."

But less than a year later, that same levee board was denied the authority to refinance its debts. Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle "repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends money and ignores public bid laws," according to the Times-Picayune. The newspaper quoted Kyle as saying that the board was near bankruptcy and should not be allowed to refinance any bonds, or issue new ones, until it submitted an acceptable plan to achieve solvency.

Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project.

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center.

The following year, the state legislature did appropriate $49.5 million for levee improvements, but the proposed spending had to be allocated by the State Bond Commission before the projects could receive financing. The commission placed the levee improvements in the "Priority 5" category, among the projects least likely to receive full or immediate funding.

The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls.

No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched.

"The problem is money is real tight in Baton Rouge right now," state Sen. Francis Heitmeier (D-Algiers) told the Times-Picayune. "We have to do with what we can get."

Louisiana Commissioner of Administration Mark Drennen told local officials that, if they reduced their requests for state funding in other, less critical areas, they would have a better chance of getting the requested funds for levee improvements. The newspaper reported that in 2000 and 2001, "the Bond Commission has approved or pledged millions of dollars for projects in Jefferson Parish, including construction of the Tournament Players Club golf course near Westwego, the relocation of Hickory Avenue in Jefferson (Parish) and historic district development in Westwego."

There is no record of such discretionary funding requests being reduced or withdrawn, but in October of 2003, nearby St. Charles Parish did receive a federal grant for $475,000 to build bike paths on top of its levees.

Earlier this year, the levee board did complete a $2.5 million restoration project. After months of delays, officials rolled away fencing to reveal the restored 1962 Mardi Gras fountain in a four-acre park featuring a new 600-foot plaza between famous Lakeshore Drive and the sea wall.

Financing for the renovation came from a property tax passed by New Orleans voters in 1983. The tax, which generates more than $6 million each year for the levee board, is dedicated to capital projects. Levee board officials defended more than $600,000 in cost overruns for the Mardi Gras fountain project, according to the Times-Picayune, "citing their responsibility to maintain the vast green space they have jurisdiction over along the lakefront."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:34 PM

Sounds like another I Hate Bush thread to me.

The state and local government's failures are being glossed over

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM

Yeah, Old Guy, uou gloss over Bush's National Response Plan like ir didn't exist...

It outlines the federal response in case of a natural disaster (as well as terrorists attack)when local or state governemtns are overwhelmed...

Google up "National Response Plan" fir a little insight into one of the main points I have been making in this thread that is now over 300 posts without one single word of rebuttal as to the federal responsibilities were/are....

(Normal, Bobert, but at least Old Guy hasn't gotten around to blaming it on Bill Clinton...)

Opps, sorry, Old Guy, but if you're thinking of blaming the Bush administartions failures in their poor response to Katrina on Bill Clinton, that dog won't hunt...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM

In the case of New Orleans, the Federal Government was the main author of the disaster.
Responsibility for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal is Federal. This is the canal that caused major flooding in the Ninth Ward and Jefferson and St. Bernard Parishes. It is part of the Navigable Waters of the United States. For years, there have been calls for upgrades. Rather than do that, Congress authorized a new lock to be built at a cost of 748 million, and a new bridge over the canal (separate project; more millions), although traffic was decreasing. NO money was voted for flood control.
The lock is (was?) a porkbarrel project of the Corps of Engineers and the Louisiana federal congressional delegation and their congressional buddies. These congressmen, of course, bear partial responsibility, but there were no objections from the Executive. City and State government officials had no effective say in the matter.
The responsibility of the Federal government for navigable waterways is spelled out under Title 33, Navigation and Navigable Waters. Three Federal agencies are involved:
Department of Transportation
Army Corps of Engineers
Coast Guard, Dept. of Homeland Security.
Also involved is Port of New Orleans (don't know who is ultimately responsible here, but I am sure the City has little or no power here).

Finally, there is NO way for the local and State governments to be ready for a disaster of that magnitude in the short time involved, and where they have little effective input on protective measures for the federally-controlled canal whose levees and walls were overtopped.

Now the Corps of Engineers is trying to restore Level 3 protection by mid-summer, and Level 5 protection is only on paper.

All of this has been posted before (thread 84801 and others).

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM

What makes you think I am defending Bush?

I am saying the responsibility belongs to state and local governments to be ready for a disaster. Were they? Did they do anything sugested in the report?

You are the defending the corrupt and irresponsible "chocolate City" government.

You keep mumbling about corporate owned news channels and corporate owned newspapers.

Which ones are not owned by a corporation?

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM

No, Old Guy, this is where you go drastically wrong!!!

Yes, for you Bush apologists it would be real convient to leave the impression that this was failure of state, loacl and federal governemnt. Porblem is, is that your propositiion is terribly flawed and fir a very good reason... You guys don't cop to nuthin"...

First of all, the National Response Plan took into account situations where state and local governments were overwhelmed... I think it is safe to say that this was the case here..

Secondly, It is not even a given that the sate and locals weren't performing well... Governor Blanko has turned over her documents on what she did and Bush has turned over cherry picked documents ane refusded to hand over any more...

And lastly, Bush, inspite of an urgent call from fall-guy, Micheal Brown two days before Katrina hit, did nothjing but continue his vaction and even then went to Californis to do some comapaigning...

These are the facts...

Now to WITT: Karl "Big Fat Liar" says that Republicans are the ones with the post 9/11 vision????


"cept it ain't funny... The only thing they seem to care about is raiding the treasury for themselves and their fat cat CEO buds...

No one is safer since 9/11... Incidents of terrorism have incresed every year since 9/11...

You won't admit it, Old Guy, but you know it is true... How anyone can defend Bush anymore is beyond me unless yer getting rich off the treasury rip-off... whcih must be the case...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM

'Hurricane Pam' exercise offered glimpse of Katrina misery
Friday, 6 p.m.

By John McQuaid
Staff writer
Times Picayune
The document's cover page reads: "Southeast Louisiana Catastrophic Hurricane Functional Plan."

"It maps out detailed instructions for emergency managers responding to a deadly hurricane that floods all of New Orleans, killing more than 60,000: how to rescue and evacuate hundreds of thousands of people stranded on rooftops or trapped by rising waters; how to quickly mobilize federal, state and local agencies; how to drain water laced with toxic sludge and clean up a ruined city.

But officials never put this plan into action. It wasn't an official disaster playbook but an experiment, the product of a weeklong simulation done last year in which emergency managers confronted a fictional Hurricane Pam.

The halting emergency response to Hurricane Katrina's aftermath left thousands of people stranded in New Orleans and adjacent areas for days without food and water, with many vulnerable to roaming gangs of outlaws. Flaws in communications and coordination between government agencies at the federal, state and local levels apparently slowed the response, though exactly what went wrong has yet to be determined.

The 109-page report on Pam, dated Sept. 20, 2004, and provided by a participant in the exercise, addresses many of these issues.

The simulation imagined a grim scenario even worse than Katrina: A slow-moving Category 3 hurricane strikes the New Orleans area, overtopping levees and causing 10-12 feet of flooding in New Orleans and the entire east bank metro area.

Katrina's flood waters spared most of Jefferson Parish and parts of New Orleans.

In the simulation, 61,290 people die, including 24,250 in New Orleans. An additional 384,000 are injured or fall ill.

The exercise grew out of an initiative at the Federal Emergency Management Agency started early in the Bush presidency to develop plans for the worst possible disasters that could hit the United States..."

And ignored by state, city and local officials.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM

New Orleans Times-Picayune today- FEMA promised $400 million to hospitals, and said the money was sent, but so far not one penny received. Keith Darcé, business writer, Fri., Jan. 27, 2006.
FEMA had assured members of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the U. S. House Committee on Energy and Commerce that the money was in place.
The Mesical Director for the State Department of Health and Hospitals has seen no funds, and continues to fill out more forms.

The hospitals have gone into debt; among the expenses was $50 milloin for a military style tent hospital housed in and around a convention center that was needed to care for patients. Operating losses at West Jefferson Medical Center have exceeded $28 million.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM

Yeah, but won't stop" Bush the Proclaimer" from pumping out his chest saying that 'he's deicated to rebuilding New Orleans...

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 11:29 PM

New York Times today says "White House declines to provide Storm papers" (on Katrina). Nor will senior White House officials be allowed to give testimony before Congressional Committees. See article by Eric Lipton, Jan. 25, 2006.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

Hmmmmmm, now that a lot of the stuff I have pointed out has made it into the main stream media it's no wonder that the usual cast isn't here with their yeah, but's, attacks and outright Bushite propaganda talking points...

..."yeah now you don't talk so loud
and, yeah, you don't talk so proud...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:35 PM

Oh well, firget the Dems...

Just turned in the corporate owned news channel and it even reporting that the Bush administartion wasn't prepared... Something that I have been stating for a couple two or threee months here and been called a bunch of names, had folks ask for sources (which I have provided) and then told that in their opionion thew lack of response was the sates and local governemnt fault... This even after I pointed out that the National Response Plan made a natural disaster the size of Katrina's the feds problem...

Yeah, the "gate" certainly belongs behind Katrina...

Bush earned it an now he's gonna have to wear it... Oh, for the good ol' days when it was nuthin' much more than a guy not wanting hios wife and daughter to know he was gettin' a little on the side... Seems like the innocent 50's in retrospect...

(But, Bobert, Karl Rove says that the Repubs have "a post 9/11 mentality...)

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention that Osaom ordered up Hurricane Katrina....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

Did I reasd that right, Amos???

"Sen. Suusan Collins, R-Maine..."

Hmmmmm??? "R"???

Like I said, the Repubs must have pics of Ted with a hooker (or worse since a pic of Ted with ahooker wouldn't really shock anyone too much...)??? They got somethin' on the Dems 'er the Dems would be killing Bush on his and his adminstrations complete failures to come thru with 3 eyars of promises to be prepared to "protect the American people"....

And the beat goes on...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

Pre-Katrina Warnings Not Heeded

Senators Slam Bush Administration for Not Heeding Warnings in Advance of Hurricane Katrina

By LARA JAKES JORDAN Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON Jan 24, 2006 — Senators lambasted the Bush administration on Tuesday for failing to heed devastating predictions from a hurricane preparedness test that began a year before Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast.

The top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee also accused the White House of trying to block or delay the panel's inquiry into the government's sluggish response to Katrina.

The preparedness exercise that began in July 2004, dubbed Hurricane Pam, warned that a Category 3 storm would overwhelm the New Orleans area with flood waters, killing up to 60,000 people and destroying buildings and roads. State and federal officials were concluding Pam's findings when Katrina, an actual Category 4 storm, roared ashore on Aug. 29.

"As a dry run for the real thing, Pam should have been a wake-up call that could not be ignored," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, chair of the Senate committee's examination of Pam's findings at a Tuesday hearing. "Instead, it is apparent that a more appropriate name for Pam should have been 'Cassandra' the mythical prophet who warned of disasters but whom no one believed." ...

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM

Nah, Old Guy....

Brownie, after telling Congress under oath that he warned Bush that a Cat 4 or Cat 5 was about to hit the Gulf Coast on the Satudurday before Katrina is now playing, "Oh, dumb me????"...

Yeah, this is all just another Karl Rove trick to try to keep his boy afloat... Yeah, get Brownie to take tha fall and it's one less scandal that can taske Bush out....

Too bad the Dems is up to their ears in whatever 'er they would be killin' Bush on this one....

Makes ya wonder what the Dems is hidin'...Must be big 'er they would be on this one like ugly on an ape...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:32 PM

Score one fer Bobert, Brownie fesses up.
January 20, 2006 -- MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif. � Former FEMA Director Michael Brown has placed blame on everyone from New Orleans' mayor to Louisiana's governor for the chaos following Hurricane Katrina. Now, he's including himself.

Brown admits he fell short of conveying the magnitude of the disaster and was slow in calling for help.

"I should have demanded the military sooner," Brown, former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told a gathering of broadcast and National Weather Service meteorologists Wednesday.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM

Incidently, Michael Brown today said that all the problems were his fault???

Yeah, okay, Mike...

Nice try,,, Yer still off the Bush Christmas card list...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM

I see there is a thread by Poppa amd Mamma Gator all about their plans for Mardi Gras.

I searched for comments about Bush, Brownie, Blanco Nagin, FEMA, DHA, Katrina and there is no mention of the disaster or bickering about who's fault it is.

Basically they say Laissez les bon temps roulet.

Is the whole controversy is a media event?

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM

Some nonsense on CNN last night, saying NO isn't chocolate any more, because it has gone from 2/3 Black before the hurricanes to only 40% now. The figure is meaningless since those who left include many who are waiting till the Federal FEMA rules are. Those who owned homes will return if they can repair and rebuild. Many won't know what they can do until the FEMA maps are out in early summer.

In the NY Times today I see that the City has agreed to notify homeowners before they demolish any houses.
For 123 worst case houses in the lower Ninth, 7-10 days notice will be given, and the owner can appeal before the limit is up. For 1900 houses less damaged but 'in danger of collapse,' 30 days notice, with right of appeal will be given. A Mr. Meffert, the City official in charge of demolition, says the program can now go ahead, saying "we have to rebuild for everyone" (whatever that means). In all, about 2500 houses are on the demolish list.

Bobert, I agree local NO language use can be misunderstood outside of the area. I remember several years ago a musician working in the Quarter telling me he lived in chocolate city because rents were too high in the Quarter and Marigny. The mayor sometimes sounds like a preacher, but I heard a lot of that talk when I was down there, from both Black and White. and no one paid it any nevermind. His vote base has shifted dramatically. It was the Uptown vote that elected the mayor, now he must hope for strong Black support in the next election. He will be running against several declared White candidates.
An editorial in the Times-Picayune stated "Mayor Nagin has a good heart, but --- he heightened tensions between neighbors."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 09:55 PM

Hey Hey! I think one of Bobert's eyes in open in one corner just a tilge and some light is sneaking in.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM

Ahhhh, yeah, the reference to N.O. as a "chocolate city" sho nuff got my wife, the P-Vine's, attention but I unnerstood what he was sayin'''.. Lotta of folks 'round the country ain't all that hooked up into black culture...

But I knew when I heard it that I was gonna have some explaineratin' to do to the wife but she still ain't got a clue...

Oh well???

Maybe that's a part of the problem in rebuildin' N.O....

Folks gonna need a vocabulary book in order to hold these charettes...

One that goes both ways....



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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM

New Orleans a chocolate city- it has been one for a long time, and it will continue to be one. The city (pre-Hurricane) was 2/3 Black and will continue to be. The interactions among members of the large Black population insure a vital culture.

The planners are putting forth ideas ranging from practical to cloud nine, but it will take time to vet them, and they must be integrated with federally mandated regulations and money available.

Much cleanup must still be done; contractors and their workers have taken care of about 30% so far. One may quarrel with 'where done' and 'amount done' but so many decisions are involved, that it is hard to evaluate progress.

People on the Gulf would agree more of those "gigantic- huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree trunks...behemoths" are needed to speed cleanup and demolition- contractors with FEMA jobs can't find enough qualified workers. That writer with the Observer whatever doesn't understand contract labor- these workers must have a large vehicle to transport their goods to a job. I had an in-law in the business who would operate a crane one contract, an earth mover on a dam the next and so on. Much of the time he not only had an SUV or heavy-duty pick-up, but also a truck and trailer since the job often was far from housing. It's not a life I would want although the money is good. (I wonder if that writer is a Hobbit).

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM

Good stuff, Q and Geoduck. I wonder if the writer from the Obsrver was even there. His article states he visited New Orleans "six months after Katrina". You do the math - and my sources from there say the same.

Bodies all over? Go back and verify how many fatalities in the Dome.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM

Chocolate City:

Here is how the responsible and capable Government on New Orleans conducts itself:

Storms Payback From God, Nagin Says
Mayor Faults War, Blacks' Infighting
By Brett Martel
Associated Press
Tuesday, January 17, 2006; Page A04

NEW ORLEANS, Jan. 16 -- Mayor C. Ray Nagin suggested Monday that hurricanes Katrina and Rita and other storms were a sign that "God is mad at America" -- and at black communities, too, for tearing themselves apart with violence and political infighting.

"Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country," Nagin said as he and other city leaders marked Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
"Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

Nagin, who is African American, also promised that New Orleans will be a "chocolate" city again. Many of the city's black neighborhoods were heavily damaged by Katrina.

"It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans -- the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority-African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans."

Nagin described an imaginary conversation with King, the late civil rights leader.

"I said, 'What is it going to take for us to move on and live your dream and make it a reality?' He said, 'I don't think that we need to pay attention any more as much about other folks and racists on the other side.' He said, 'The thing we need to focus on as a community -- black folks I'm talking about -- is ourselves.' "

Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?"

The reply, Nagin said, was "We as a people need to fix ourselves first."

Nagin also said King would have been dismayed with black leaders who are "most of the time tearing each other down publicly for the delight of many."

A day earlier, gunfire erupted at a parade to commemorate King's birthday. Three people were wounded in the daylight shooting amid a throng of mostly black spectators, but police said there were no immediate suspects or witnesses.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM

What concerns me now is that these charettes are being conducted by folks who do not represent the areas that were destroyed... I heard a "planner" on the Diane Rheme Shoow the other day and he was talking about things which are all underway...

Then Diane brought in an attorney from the 7th Ward who made this point and it seems to be an important point and most certainly has racial implications as well...

I hope that the "planners" won't get too far ahead of the process, which based on my experience with various community projects ovetr the last 6 ot 7 years seems to be hard to prevent... Show a planner a piece of ground anf the wheels start spinnin'....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM

The Seventh Ward is a large and diverse area, starting on the River at a point on the triangle formed by Esplanade Avenue (and then the line turning north and extended along Bayou St. John Ave.) and Elysian Fields Avenue, and extending north past Dillard University all the way to the Lake. In this area of New Orleans, Neighborhoods, not the Ward, determine the demographics.
The writer of the material copied in the British papers seems to be bigoted in his attitude towards Whites, and only marginally familiar with the 'seventh ward'.

The Seventh Ward area on the River, Marigny Neighborhood, is 72% White.
To the north is the typical "Seventh Ward Neighborhood," extending north to Agriculture Ave.; 94% Black, 1/3 of houses owner-occupied. This is part of the area of which Azizi talks. (For comparison, houses in the Ninth Ward are 57% owner-occupied).
To the north and west is the Fairgrounds Neighborhood, 70% Black, about 44% of houses owner-occupied.
The St. Bernard Neighborhood is just north of Fairgrounds, 98% Black. Only 17% of housing is owner-occupied. Interstate 610 (State 90) had already damaged this area.
To the east is the Dillard Neighborhood, 88% Black, but 60% of housing owner-ocupied.
Filmore Neighborhood, to the North, is more mixed, 57% Black, 86% owner-occupied.
Topping off the Seventh Ward, Lake Terrace and Oaks Neighborhoods, to the North bordering Lake Ponchartrain, are 72% white and 95% owner-occupied.

A lot of data here, but important; areas with high owner-occupancy are more likely to stay in the hands of the people of the 'hood.'

Now the JOKERS, which at the moment happens to be FEMA, and Federal rebuilding of the walls, levees and other protection. Residents are in limbo until at least late Spring.
New Federal flood maps are scheduled to be released later this year. These maps will tell residents whether- or how high- to rebuild their damaged homes. The Commission land use panel wants preliminary maps as soon as possible, but FEMA prefers to wait until the maps are finalized (some prelim. info. may be released in April-May).

If owners rebuild now, all they have as a guide are the current required elevations, which may be substantially changed when new maps are released. Federally guaranteed Insurance will depend on these maps.
If owners choose to rebuild following current requirements, and another flood comes, FEMA could rule them 'victims of repetitive flooding', and force them to raise their homes.
When will the models for levees, walls, pumps and drainage canals be complete? Not until well into the next hurricane season.
And then there will be the arguments and negociations and politics and---

What will owners of rental property do? Will they sell or rebuild and repair? Neighborhoods with low ownership may have a hard fight ahead.
Some of this information here:, The Times-Picayune, article on new flood maps and regulations, specifically

Demographics and Neighborhood data, start with: Seventh Ward Neighborhood

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM

That article was in the Sunday January 15, 2006
The Observer and is itself an excerpt from Nik Cohn' book 'Triksta'

Here's another longish excerpt from that article, but IMO, the entire article is well worth reading and passing on to others:

"The French Quarter isn't feeling much pain. At the height of the storm, it shipped less than a foot of water. A couple of bars on Bourbon Street never closed. All that's missing are the tourists. There's bitter irony in this, because tourism is the primary reason that New Orleans sold its soul. Before the 1980s, visitors were expected to adjust to native customs. Then the local economy ran aground. The oil boom of the Seventies collapsed, and big business, driven off by Louisiana's punitive taxes, left town. Even the port, the city's primary source of income, was diminished. That left the tourist dollar. The French Quarter, previously ramshackle, was transformed into a creole Disneyland. Shopping malls, convention centres, casinos and theme parks sprang up, enriching a power elite. Old white money and new black money thrived. The populace at large was left to rot.

In recent decades, the mayors and the majority of the city council have been African-Americans, which merely proves that black rip-off artists can be as voracious as white. Pre-Katrina, tourism generated $1 million a day but not a dime ever seemed to reach the streets. And this was deliberate. Tourists need service - menial labour to clean their tables and make their beds, hose away their vomit on Bourbon Street. To provide it, the city adopted a policy of malign neglect. The old black neighbourhoods, rich in history and culture, were allowed to sink into ruin and the school system to founder. Without education, there was no way out. Many who refused to submit to grunt work in the Quarter became criminals, most often drug dealers. The public-housing projects that ringed the city's centre became armed camps, where killing was seen as proof of manhood. By 2000, New Orleans was America's murder capital, eight times as deadly as New York.

For tourists, this was an invisible world. If they ventured beyond the Quarter at all, they took the streetcar past the mansions on St Charles Avenue or joined a walking tour of the Garden District, and few troubled to inquire what paid for such luxury. The only white faces seen in the projects belonged to social workers and drug-trawlers. The city was more deeply segregated than at any time in its history. Almost every project family lost someone to violence or jail. A culture of hopelessness took hold.

These were the people herded into the Superdome and Convention Centre, the people on rooftops and overpasses, waiting to be rescued, and the people branded as looters, even though most took only what they needed to stay alive. If one small good has come out of Katrina it is that they're invisible no longer. That doesn't mean they now have a voice or will be treated better. In the Quarter, they already seem forgotten. About half the hotels and restaurants have reopened, catering to an army of relief workers. Many have the same habits as the tourists they've replaced. As a race, they're gigantic - huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree-trunks in floppy shorts - and they drive SUVs to match. New Orleans, shadowy and mysterious, birthplace of jazz, has been taken over by behemoths, blasting country and western on their car stereos."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM

Click HERE to read a compelling, well written article from the United Kingdom's Observer-Guardian about New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina, and post-Katrina "recovery".

Here's two excerpts from that article:

"Hunters Field is a sacred spot. A scrubby tract in the shadow of the Interstate, it's the home of the Yellow Pocahontas, one of the most revered Mardi Gras Indian tribes, and a site of Super Sunday, perhaps the greatest day in the black calendar, when the tribes gather in full costume to pow-wow, make music, and party as only New Orleanians can. This is the heart of the Seventh Ward, rich in history and black culture. Before Katrina, I could look from here down St Bernard Avenue with its hole-in-the-wall bars, barbershops, used-clothing stores and social clubs, and it seemed no power on earth could snuff out the vitality here. Now, nothing stirs. The shops and bars are all boarded up, there is no power and no one is allowed to live in the houses. At the height of the flooding, the waters rose eight-foot deep and caused massive damage. Most homes that weren't destroyed are infected by mould. Yet, experts agree, the area can be salvaged. It would take a lot of money and commitment, but the Seventh Ward, unlike the Lower Ninth, isn't gone."...

…the sense of loss is overwhelming. One morning, I ask B to retrace his Katrina journey with me. The apartment complex where he started is under guard, but everything else - the ravaged wasteground by the overpass, littered with fast-food containers and water bottles; the shattered glass in the forecourt of Skate Country; the felled and twisted neon sign outside Capt Sal's; the whole of Chef Highway, mile on mile of desolation - has been left to its own devices. 'I guess the clean-up crews must be on their break,' says B. We drive along the interstate, taking the same route as the trucks that delivered him and his group to the Convention Centre. None of the areas below shows any sign of life till we reach the CBD (Central Business District), which is almost back to normal. The centre has been scrubbed clean, inside and out, but remains closed to visitors. B finds the spot where he squatted, those dreadful days and nights. He relives it - the bodies blocking the bathroom door, the snatched children, the old women dying in their faeces, the National Guardsmen laughing among themselves, the heat, the stench, the helplessness - and he cries."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM

I will take the 28 million, no questions asked.

I appologise for suggesting that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM

FEMA throws roadblocks at Charity and University Hospitals.
Louisiana State University, administrators of the two large hospitals, estimate that repairs to Charity would cost $258 million.

FEMA has offered the public hospital system run by LSU only $23 million for damage to the basement and the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems of Big Charity.

LSU has not accepted, and asked FEMA to explain how it planned to do an overall assessment. At this point FEMA has no timeline for completing its overal assessment.
The Times-Picayune, Melinda Deslatte, Associated Press. Article reproduced in

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM

Flooded or debris clogged... both impassible for vehicular traffic. The local National Guard had equipment that would have made it possible to get through some of the flooding for rescuing people, but most of it was in Iraq, and not available locally when it was needed.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM

Well which is more passable. Flooded roads or roads with debris in them?

Is the depth of the water or the size and quantity of the debris a factor?

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM

What about these trailers Guest rants about?
The Times-Picayune reports that a home owner threatens to drag the trailer FEMA dumped on his property into the street. Why?
Two months after a federal contractor dumped the trailer on his front lawn, no power has been supplied. If he could get power, he could spend more time repairing his house.
1. A FEMA contractor must erect a temporary utility pole, wire it to the trailer and to neighborhood power lines. Can take months.
2. The utility (Entergy) is bankrupt. It can't hire more employees or get more equipment.
3. Even if the damaged house has been re-connected to power, wiring can't be extended to the trailer without the FEMA pole and establishing a new contract with Entergy. A permit is needed, and fees are $45 plus a deposit to the Parish ($75 in Tammany Parish). Customers of Ciesco pay $150 deposit in the Parish. (Fees depend upon Parish (NOT CITY) schedules). A slumgullion of a mixture of State, Parish and City regulations and safety requirements that must be satisfied.
Hook-ups must be pre-inspected or the customer is liable to fines and power cut-off.
Permits are backed-up because of the lack of inspectors.
4. Failure of FEMA to give instructions and information on a multi-step process to homeowners.
Sat. Jan. 14, 2006.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM

Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG').

I don't. When people offer opinions that are in opposition to mine, I often don't say anything at all. And I often tell them that they are entitled to their opinions. And if I think they are wrong, I try to show through presentation of documentation that they are wrong. I can provide hundreds of examples of this.

When people obfuscate and lie, I accuse them of obfuscating and lying. One example of this is taking a part of one of my statements out of context in order to make it look like I am saying the complete opposite of what I really said.

In your case, I didn't suggest you don't think things through because your opinion was in opposition to mine. I accused you of that because you made an outrageously ridiculous statement. You suggested that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM


Perspective means that you stand back and look at the whole picture instead of zeroing in on one small item and magnifying it untill it fills your whole field of vision.

Now stand back and view the whole picture. How many hurricanes hit the US compared to previous years? What were their intensity? How did Fema perform in those hurricanes. Look at every factor and make comparisons to previous related incidents and similar incidents elsewhere.

You lack this perspective. You go to extremes.

Here is an example of your kind of extremisim:
Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?!
Pirate News reported that during Gulf War #1, Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire ordered US troops to blow up oil wells in Kuwait and Iraq and blame Iraq, in order to drive up oil prices. Bush, UN Inc and Clinton-Blythe-Rockefeller sanctions and bombings on Iraq have closed sales of 5-cents/gallon Iraq gasoline to USA. Gasoline prices rose 75-cents/gallon in one day in USA after Katrina. John Lee of reported that Tennessee soldiers from GW#1 confessed they were ordered to stop firefighters from extinguishing the oil well fires. Ports near New Orleans import not only petroleum, but since NAFTA exported factories and farming to foreign nations, USA is dependant upon foreign food to survive, as pointed out by disgruntled mayor of New Orleans, er, "New Venice".... Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?!

Ruptured New Orleans Levee had help failing
   By: Hal Turner                                  September 9, 2005   3:36 PM EDT
NOTE: This story has been UPDATED as of Saturday, September 10, 2005 @ 11:40 PM EDT The updated info is incorporated into the story and appears in bold type

SECOND UPDATE: Monday Sept. 12, 2005 @ 8:23 AM ABC News Video with Ear Witness to Explosions and states emphatically "They blew this levee" Click the link below the story

New Orleans, LA -- Divers inspecting the ruptured levee walls surrounding New Orleans found something that piqued their interest: Burn marks on underwater debris chunks from the broken levee wall!

One diver, a member of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, saw the burn marks and knew immediately what caused them. When he surfaced and showed the evidence to his superior, the on-site Coordinator for FEMA stepped-in and said "You are not here to conduct an investigation as to why this rupture occurred, but only to determine how best to close it." The FEMA coordinator then threw the evidence back into the water and said "You will tell no one about this."

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM

I don't remember John Kerry recommending that FEMA be gutted... Or even Joe Lieberman... Or Nacy Pelosi... Or Hillary Clinton... Or Edward Kennedy....

Hey, they weren't the ones admitting that the dot hadn't been connected and then promising to do a better job of "protecting the American people" yet seems that most of the annonomous GUEST's here would lay the blame for the poor federal response on anyone other than Bush and his folks???



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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM

OG, that won't make any difference because it is still all GWBs fault
even though GW could see that FEMA would be buried under a ton of red tape. Facts that are contrary to blaming GW are invalid to those with mindsets.
Nice try, though.

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM

John Kerry campain ad:
"John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11."

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Mudcat time: 30 July 2:48 AM EDT

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