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BS: KatrinaGate
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM A blog is a weblog. An online diary. Snopes is not a blog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM GUEST,G, you should read the other threads on Katrina. There were supplies turned away in Mississippi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM Gung-ho Bush on tour and giving speeches on how wonderful things will be after Miss-NO rebuilt. He doesn't mention that Congress must vote the cash. Until they do, his campaign promises are bushwah. His talk of 'big help' coming in just sounds like Halliburton et al. will get more billions. Whether this will happen or the money bills will get drowned in congressional committee piss is not yet known. Meanwhile Guest G et al. continues to mouth the fiction that the people of New Orleans are crooks, gamblers, shooters liars and thieves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM Thank you, Q and CarolC.... I'm in the middle of a large project... Actually several and don't have much pudder time these days for Googling up stuff but with these GUEST's it's almost a full time jib searching out the facts to combat their mythogies... Ummmmmm, now I guess it was the Duck who asked what I would do now and that's a fair question and I will respond with a 10 point program in a little while... Gotta got do some sanding, apply some more mud, etc... Professor Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a blog to me Suspect Device Blog The Rectal Foreign Body in the X-Ray of Louisiana Politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM What's your point, Gooeyduck? I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts. I just said that Snopes is not a blog. From Gooeyduck... She (CarolC) blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused. Please show me where I have done any of these things. Yes, I agree. You are confused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM Okay, her we go... 1. Seein' as that problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it, Bush and his gang are outta the deal. Yes, he needs to remove his asdminstartion from the process of the plan to rebuild the Gulf Coast... (More on this later...) 2. The Army of Corps of Engineers, before the first thing is built inside the worst areas needs to rebuild the leves to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane... Not not a 4! (Actually, I have recently heard that by the time Katrina hit N.O. it was a Cat 3??? And di this musch damage???) So, rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5... 3. Turn the Justice Departemnt loose on the insurance industry which has taken a run-out-the-clock attitude on paying claims... Yeah, haul a couple COE's into jailand that outta get them playing nice. 4. Provide national "gap insurance" to any "home owner" who lived in their own home that covers the difference between wheat the weiel insurance companies will pay to rebuild and what it will take to rebuild. 5. BUT, and this is the all important "but", before folks start rebuilding, hold a redevelopement/redesign charette... Now, I ain't talking about a few old folks from the hood witha room full of slick talking planners... That ain't a charette, its an ambush... And it's going to take some national public serice announcements to let folks who either have relocated or can't make it back to appoint proxies to represent their interests... 6. Offer a major prize for a national competition of various engineering schools to find a way to build entire blocks on barges that can't be seen in the case of flooding where entire blockes, trees, shrubs and Rover's dog house i tha back yard can raise with flood level... (Yeah, I know this seems to contradict my #1 but, hey, it's worth a looksie just in case the Army Corps screws up... 7. Look toward public/private partnerships in ares were a complete redevelopemt might be possible. If these areas are to be rebuilt with vision there will be these pockets that weill open up and so be prepared to negotiate with the private sector for thier redevelopment... Lotta creative ways to "share" sapce. 8. Offer tax incentives (local, state and federal) for investement in the rebuilding of centers that bring back the cultureal aspects of the area. And on the fedral level, like community block grant programs to assit in amtching funds for such rebuilding. 9. Hold as a goal a mix racial mix in these ares that is no greater than 10% different than before Katrina. 10. Lastly, and this is perahps the hardest and it is the area of finacing. Given that this area is so important to the domestic oil industry, that rebuilding will be partially paid for by the oil industry. Hey, they beed folks there to work so they can throw a few peas in the pot. These two states don't have extra revenues so reality being just that, I would propose that tyhr Bush administration roll back it's tax cuts incrimentally and that a portion go toward rebuilding the Gulf Coast... Thrwo in the public/private partnerships in many areas and the bills get paid. There, that's Bobert's "Ten Point Plan" Unlike the Bushites here, I ain't afraid to throw out some ideas... Sure, I expect them to start taking shots. Fine, shoot away but not if you don't have the balls to put forth yer "10 point" plans... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM Go take care of your drywall Bobert. Ever try Durabond? Now I want to know about the snipers. I see that there were widespread reports of snipers and the word spread like wildfire. It caused several rescues and supply deliveries to be halted. Blaming it on one news source is not logical because they are all out there trying to out scoop the others. One doctor said he heard shots and heard the bullets hitting nearby. If I was there that would convince me and have me running for cover. Nobody can confirm anything and it has been attributed to the "Fog of War" or the equivalent of the fog of a disaster. However if federal troops are to be put on the ground they need to be authorized to defend themselves with force and make arrests if necessary snipers or not. That is not legal under Posse Comitatus unless it is requested with the proper protocall. I would not send soldiers anywhere where they cannot defend themselves legally. I have never said everybody in New Orleans is a crook but I am under the impression that the government and the police force is corrupt to a certain extent. Not as much as a third world country but certainly more that most large southern cities like Atlanta or Mobile. If I am wrong, lay it on me but it should come from sombody who really knows and not some carpetbagger that has never been to NO or experienced a hurricane. Now about the 1960's flood gates. The GAO has said they would have done more harm than good. I find that hard to believe but I guess thay know more than I do. However Blanko was in the Netherlands studying their levee and floodgate system, I suppose that if floodgates are proposed now, they will be termed an absolute necessity instead of harmful. They could hire contractors from the Netherlands and they would probably do a good job. They built the Palm Islands off of Dubai and they are working on World Island and a third Palm Island bigger than the other two put together. It is the most amazing thing I have ever seen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM Danged good idea, O-Guy.... If there's any folks in the world that understand flood plain it the Dutch... Get a few Dutch engineerrs to the charette... As fir the snipers, O-Guy... Seems the more we look at the reports the less likely it is that anyone was shooting a doctors... Yeah, I was in Missisisppi during Katrina doing some recording at a buds house and that's all he listened to was Fox Mythology Network and they repeated ther snipping story over and over lie it was the ***only*** story associated with Katrina???? No wonder, fir those who only listen to FOx, whcih is the most partisan news ( if you can call it taht) station in American that one might come out still elieving that folks were shooting at doctors... And please, CarolC has provides ample links, don't do the juvinilistic "prove it" bullsh*t on me... Heck, I'm still hjaving problems with the Philosophy 201 "prove you exist" question to be bothered with stuff that CarolC has allready taken care of here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:04 AM Bush boasted today that $85 billion has been approved for the region but only $25 billion had been spent. Beyond saying the federal government "had a great role to play," he didn't say much, certainly nothing of substance. Just who approved the $85 billion?- or has it been approved? Is he just woofin'? And just what has been approved for the Corps of Engineers to build the levees, walls and flood gates? Certainly we know of no unified plans, let alone a timetable. Wonder what the waste factor is on the money spent so far, and how much went to Halliburton and subsidiaries. If the 'billions' are there, and if the levees and flood controls were built with the 'billions' to level 5, money would start to flow from the private sector. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:16 AM Q, I meant no such thing concerning the citizens of New Orleans. (with the possible of exception of some government official and their cronies) Now, where did I say that? Carol C, I will go with the Dictionary definition of 'blog' And, as normal, questions going unanswered and BS being introduced. No comments on the 100s of mobile homes and RVs standing empty due to the local government continuing their practice of indecisiveness?????? The same people that ignore this are the ones who are complaining because some hotels want to return to a sense of normalcy and need their rooms back for tourists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:24 AM By the way Caro, your assuming how things were around NO - "roads impassable" - are just that, assumptions. The wind damage in NO was not the problem, flooding was. I think 'A' was there as I have an aquaintance who was there at the same time and he says wind damage, i.e., trees down, etc., was minimal. To the east was the wind damage, well, not damage really, he said "stuff" just disappeared. (Gulport, Bay St. Louis, etc.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM No, they're not assumptions. I am repeating what I read from people who were there. Especially people who were responsible for rescue and other emergency purposes. Flooding has a tendency to make roads impassible (for road type vehicles), don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM You're not a big fan of thinking things through, are you GUEST,G? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM Here are some definitions for the word "blog" (much more detailed definitions than what can be found in a dictionary)... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog "A blog is a website in which journal entries are posted on a regular basis and displayed in reverse chronological order. The term blog is a shortened form of weblog or web log." http://www.marketingterms.com/dictionary/blog/ "A frequent, chronological publication of personal thoughts and Web links." http://www.blogscanada.ca/BlogDefinition.html "So what is a weblog, anyway? Generally speaking, it's an online journal comprised of links and postings in reverse chronological order, meaning the most recent posting appears at the top of the page. As Meg Hourihan, co-founder of Pyra Labs, the blogging software company acquired by Google in February 2003, has noted, weblogs are �post-centric� -- the posting is the key unit -- rather than �page-centric,� as with more traditional websites. Weblogs typically link to other websites and blog postings, and many allow readers to comment on the original post, thereby allowing audience discussions." http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214616,00.html "On the Internet, a blog (short for weblog) is a personal journal that is frequently updated and intended for general public consumption." The necessary requirements to make a website a "blog" are that it be, A. A journal Snopes is not a journal. B. Chronological (reverse) Snopes in not chronoligical in any way. C. Has multiple entries per page Snopes has one entry per page. And because it's not a journal, it doesn't follow a journal format. It is an informational site that has a separate page for each diffferent "urban myth" that it is either debunking or validating. Personally, I don't have a problem with blogs (Gooeyduck's bizarre accusations notwithstanding). I tend to avoid using them as my only documentation or support for an argument, but I will sometimes use them together with other sources if I think it is reasonable to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM Okay Carol, okay - call it what you want and I will go with my concept. Now that is settled, your comment of me "not thinking things through" is a puzzlement. You say you are repeating things that "I have read from people who were there." Well good for you - since I don't trust most of the sensationalized reports in the media, I only repeat what I have personally been TOLD by people 'who were there'. Best I can do. And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected. Opening a road after a tornado, which I have helped with, is not that big of a deal. Tractors, trucks and cables work very well and very quickly. However, around the outskirts of NO, this was not the case. There was not the problem of "impassable roads" or the kid with the school bus would not have made it out of town. With this, you go with your opinions and what you read, I will stick with my accounts from the people who were there. Enough, okay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected The Super Dome is hardly the only area that needed assistance. Most roads in New Orleans were impassible. Some were not. There is no excuse for FEMA's criminal negligence of the people in the Super Dome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM That last should read "criminal neglect" rather than "negligence". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM Number of buses... "According to a September 5, 2003, article in the Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700." Public transit buses were being used to evacuate people. But as I said before, they were being used in the manner that would help the most people under the circumstances... taking them to the nearest emergency shelter. The school buses people saw in neat rows under water in pictures could very well have been the 70 buses that were broken down and not operational. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120009 That article debunks quite a few other falsehoods that are being spread here in this thread. For instance, the stupid accusation that Blanco should have, but didn't ask for specific assistance... "According to the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should immediately begin emergency operations, even in the absence of a clear assessment of the situation. Because a "detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states that "response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment."" On the subject of prepositioning assets... "In fact, a Navy ship -- the USS Bataan -- was "preposition[ed]" off the Louisiana coast ready to aid Katrina victims but was deprived of needed guidance by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), as the Chicago Tribune reported on September 4. Moreover, the Bush administration did not send a hospital ship to New Orleans from Baltimore until four days after the levees were breached. Kelly wrote that the Army Corps of Engineers had by September 10 "begun pumping water out of New Orleans." But James Lee Witt, FEMA director in the Clinton administration, said that both efforts should have happened much sooner: "[I]n the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby."" National Guard... "In fact...according to Department of Defense officials, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour had requested additional Guard personnel before the storm hit. And, as the Associated Press reported on September 3, Blanco accepted an offer for additional troops from New Mexico the day before the hurricane hit, but that help was delayed by paperwork needed from Washington." According to the NRP (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the local government officials did everything they were responsible for under the plan. FEMA before Bush (from the perspective of Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts Jr., whose house was damaged by Hurricane Andrew)... "The day after I crawled from the wreckage of my home in 1992, the Federal Emergency Management Agency was there with water. Shortly thereafter came low-interest loans and other forms of help." And after Bush... "By contrast, a woman who saw me conducting interviews in Bogalusa, La., seven days after Katrina struck marched up and demanded to know if I was, finally, the man from FEMA because her house was split in two and she and her husband and children and grandchildren were sleeping on the porch." _______________ From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi (originally taken from an article in the CNN website, for which the link is now defunct)... "FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said. 'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said. Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added. He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday. 'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'" www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories" We've already covered all of this ground many times in previous threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM I have a few questions for CC: 1 How many hurricanes made landfall in the US in 2005? 2 How many in 1992? 3 How many hit after Bush and before DHS? 4 What did victims of the hurricanes that hit afer Bush and before DHS have to say about DHS? How many Pros vs how many cons? You may have to alter your anti-bush template a little if you want to put things into perspective and find the real truth. After we have exhausted ourselves arguing about that and each of us declaring victory we can move on the the Bush is responsible because of global warming argument. Here are the top 10 hurricanes in US history before Katrina: 1. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1900 2. FLORIDA 1928 3. FLORIDA KEYS 1935 4. HURRICANE AUDREY 1957 5. SOUTHEAST U.S. 1926 6. LOUISIANA 1909 7. ATLANTIC-GULF 1919 8. LOUISIANA 1915 9. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1915 10. NEW ENGLAND 1938 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/hurricanes.topten/intro.html Except for 1957 they were all early 1900s Where was global warming and GWB back then? Could it be that these things run in cycles? Whittle a cyles hole in your template and things come to light like this: http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=286 "The hurricane activity of the next 20 years should resemble the period that began in the late 1920s and lasted through the 1940s. The increase is due to higher salinity content in the Atlantic Ocean, which alters its currents and increases average ocean temperatures, fueling more storms. Gray emphasizes that this is a cyclical trend and has nothing to do with global warming(CNN, April 22, 2000)... .. University of New Mexico scientist Louis Scuderi, studying tree ring data in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado, has identified a 72 year drought cycle in the region according to an AP article of April 29th. The last such drought occurred in the 1950s, leading Scuderi to believe that another is imminent in the 2020s." This dates back to pre-Bush before so it couldn't be biased against Bush. Now do you want to move on to the Kyoto argument? Why should the US be bound by the Kyoto protocol if China is not? What other countries have and haven't signed? Who consumes all this energy in the US anyway? Is it the people? If so why can't they consume less and solve the problem instead of beating the government over the head about their own activites? Witness Barabra Striesand, environmental Activist who travels in private jets and stretch limos ansd is so concerned about air polution and green house gasses. Where do you want to begin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM Here's the text of the letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush. I don't know why it is no longer available in the Louisiana government's website, but it might be because that site is not designed to handle the amount of traffic it gets as a result of keeping that page active... August 27, 2005 The President The White House Washington, D. C. Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209 Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan. Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM Lots of subjects for lots of threads but most have little to do with the subject at hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM Re: your questions, Old Guy, you tell us. Are you so lazy that everyone else has to do all of your work for you? I don't have an anti-Bush bias. I have an anti stupidity bias. Let's get FEMA back the way it was prior to its absorption into the DHS. Don't let your anti-Democrat bias prevent you from supporting changes that will save lives and prevent tragedies like the aftermath of Katrina from happening in the future. And if your reference to global warming was directed at me, please show me where I have said anything at all about global warming and Hurricane Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM Yeah, Q, yer right.... Here we are a month after I argued the point that Bush was reponsible to driopping the ball and messing up the sytem so bad that it couldn't ptrotect the American people and I haven't seen the first real rebuttal to the "FACTS" I included in that arguement... Of sure, I've been called a lotta stuff... People have siad that I won't answer their qustions but that's not my job... This thread is about George Bush and he failed the US people and I have yet to read any Bushite here present a thought out response to my original charge which I sould think mean... ... they don't have one (period)... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM I thought I would give CC the opportunity to present her unassailable facts fo us to marvel at first. I though an expert like CC would have the answers at hand but evidently those answers would embarras her so she declines to answer. In other words another person that won't answer questions. Furthermore when you go to those Lousianna government sites you get a 404 document not found error which means it has been deleted. Also a person that contradicts herself: "I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts." From: CarolC - PM Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM Yeah, great, O-Guy.... Now how about going back to the very first post in this thread and assemble a rebuttal... Bush was the one to give the orders and he flinched... Bush was responsible for backing up his post 9/11 rhetoric about protecting the American people and he failed... These, based on well over 200 posts without a rebuttal to be the strongest evidence that the "gate" belongs behind Katrina... Hey, when any one of the Bushites will mount a rebuttal then you can ask questions of me... Until then, yer just blowing smoke... Debating 101... Rebuttal, then assert an opposing view... UIf you can't rebutt my arguments then you have no right to change the direction of the debate... Any high school debating coach can tell ye that.... And, O-Guy, don't get too smug in dealing with CarolC... You make her mad and she'll take you to the cleaners... Maybe you won't know just what a butt whup she put on yer ol' butt but everyone else will... Better just stick to yer talking points, keep on punching but when you go declaring some kind of victory, this ol' gal gonna hurt you bad... She is easilly the best debater in Mudville... Plus she's mighty purdy which has nuthin' to do with anything... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:55 PM Old Guy... time to get new reading glasses. Either that or get your nurse to read the thread to you. The sentence as it is written in my post reads, "I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts". All anyone who wants to verify that has to do is read the thread. And I have already answered most, if not all of the questions that have been put to me, and provided documentation for all of my assertions. You, on the other hand have done nothing but obfuscate and lie. You're not answering your questions because you don't know the answers. But go ahead and do some research and post your results. And then I will follow along and take them apart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM (thnx bobert) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM See what I mean, O-Guy??? Play nicer with CarolC an' maybe you won't need that nurse... B.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Jan 06 - 03:33 AM I apologise. I have been going too fast and putting wrong things together. However I do wonder why the fact that GWB did not want to have a DHS and then he did not want FEMA to be part of it is glossed over here. He made concessions to the opposing party in an effort to keep the peace and now it is being used against him. Could FEMA have done a better job if it was left alone? Nobody seems to want to answer questions so I will ask them one at a time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:43 AM Well, fir one, it would have been a cabinet level position, Old Guy, which carries a lot more weight than and agency... Second, when it was demoted, it lost alot of it's budget... I don't see this as the DEM's fault but, hey, inspite of their minority status, they are not completely blameless either... The fights the DEM's took up in the establishement of the DHS were related more to labor issues and less about organization... They picked the wrong fight, perhaps, but weren't the one's who had much control of how the organizational chart would end end up looing like... But based on FEMA's track record in the 90's I think it's safe to say that it wasn't as capable when Katrina hit... Added to that, as I have pointed out, Bush and the White House were AWOL in the early going and were late to the battle... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 AM Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG'). Have you given any consideration as to the possibility of someone else knowing a few facts, particulary when they have talked with people who were on scene within 24 hours of Katrina? Reading media reports that we know are "built up" (a reporting term) can be similar to the the 3 blind men offering their explanations as to what an Elephant is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM John Kerry campain ad: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM OG, that won't make any difference because it is still all GWBs fault even though GW could see that FEMA would be buried under a ton of red tape. Facts that are contrary to blaming GW are invalid to those with mindsets. Nice try, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM I don't remember John Kerry recommending that FEMA be gutted... Or even Joe Lieberman... Or Nacy Pelosi... Or Hillary Clinton... Or Edward Kennedy.... Hey, they weren't the ones admitting that the dot hadn't been connected and then promising to do a better job of "protecting the American people" yet seems that most of the annonomous GUEST's here would lay the blame for the poor federal response on anyone other than Bush and his folks??? Hmmmmmmmm??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM Bobert: Perspective means that you stand back and look at the whole picture instead of zeroing in on one small item and magnifying it untill it fills your whole field of vision. Now stand back and view the whole picture. How many hurricanes hit the US compared to previous years? What were their intensity? How did Fema perform in those hurricanes. Look at every factor and make comparisons to previous related incidents and similar incidents elsewhere. You lack this perspective. You go to extremes. Here is an example of your kind of extremisim: Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?! http://www.dickgregory.com/katrina_chronicle.html Pirate News reported that during Gulf War #1, Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire ordered US troops to blow up oil wells in Kuwait and Iraq and blame Iraq, in order to drive up oil prices. Bush, UN Inc and Clinton-Blythe-Rockefeller sanctions and bombings on Iraq have closed sales of 5-cents/gallon Iraq gasoline to USA. Gasoline prices rose 75-cents/gallon in one day in USA after Katrina. John Lee of PirateNews.org reported that Tennessee soldiers from GW#1 confessed they were ordered to stop firefighters from extinguishing the oil well fires. Ports near New Orleans import not only petroleum, but since NAFTA exported factories and farming to foreign nations, USA is dependant upon foreign food to survive, as pointed out by disgruntled mayor of New Orleans, er, "New Venice".... Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?! EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE FOUND ON FAILED LEVEE DEBRIS! Ruptured New Orleans Levee had help failing By: Hal Turner September 9, 2005 3:36 PM EDT http://www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html NOTE: This story has been UPDATED as of Saturday, September 10, 2005 @ 11:40 PM EDT The updated info is incorporated into the story and appears in bold type SECOND UPDATE: Monday Sept. 12, 2005 @ 8:23 AM ABC News Video with Ear Witness to Explosions and states emphatically "They blew this levee" Click the link below the story New Orleans, LA -- Divers inspecting the ruptured levee walls surrounding New Orleans found something that piqued their interest: Burn marks on underwater debris chunks from the broken levee wall! One diver, a member of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, saw the burn marks and knew immediately what caused them. When he surfaced and showed the evidence to his superior, the on-site Coordinator for FEMA stepped-in and said "You are not here to conduct an investigation as to why this rupture occurred, but only to determine how best to close it." The FEMA coordinator then threw the evidence back into the water and said "You will tell no one about this." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG'). I don't. When people offer opinions that are in opposition to mine, I often don't say anything at all. And I often tell them that they are entitled to their opinions. And if I think they are wrong, I try to show through presentation of documentation that they are wrong. I can provide hundreds of examples of this. When people obfuscate and lie, I accuse them of obfuscating and lying. One example of this is taking a part of one of my statements out of context in order to make it look like I am saying the complete opposite of what I really said. In your case, I didn't suggest you don't think things through because your opinion was in opposition to mine. I accused you of that because you made an outrageously ridiculous statement. You suggested that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM What about these trailers Guest rants about? The Times-Picayune reports that a home owner threatens to drag the trailer FEMA dumped on his property into the street. Why? Two months after a federal contractor dumped the trailer on his front lawn, no power has been supplied. If he could get power, he could spend more time repairing his house. 1. A FEMA contractor must erect a temporary utility pole, wire it to the trailer and to neighborhood power lines. Can take months. 2. The utility (Entergy) is bankrupt. It can't hire more employees or get more equipment. 3. Even if the damaged house has been re-connected to power, wiring can't be extended to the trailer without the FEMA pole and establishing a new contract with Entergy. A permit is needed, and fees are $45 plus a deposit to the Parish ($75 in Tammany Parish). Customers of Ciesco pay $150 deposit in the Parish. (Fees depend upon Parish (NOT CITY) schedules). A slumgullion of a mixture of State, Parish and City regulations and safety requirements that must be satisfied. Hook-ups must be pre-inspected or the customer is liable to fines and power cut-off. Permits are backed-up because of the lack of inspectors. 4. Failure of FEMA to give instructions and information on a multi-step process to homeowners. http://www/nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/1137222192280310.xml Sat. Jan. 14, 2006. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM Well which is more passable. Flooded roads or roads with debris in them? Is the depth of the water or the size and quantity of the debris a factor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM Flooded or debris clogged... both impassible for vehicular traffic. The local National Guard had equipment that would have made it possible to get through some of the flooding for rescuing people, but most of it was in Iraq, and not available locally when it was needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM FEMA throws roadblocks at Charity and University Hospitals. Louisiana State University, administrators of the two large hospitals, estimate that repairs to Charity would cost $258 million. FEMA has offered the public hospital system run by LSU only $23 million for damage to the basement and the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems of Big Charity. LSU has not accepted, and asked FEMA to explain how it planned to do an overall assessment. At this point FEMA has no timeline for completing its overal assessment. The Times-Picayune, Melinda Deslatte, Associated Press. Article reproduced in Nola.com. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM I will take the 28 million, no questions asked. I appologise for suggesting that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM Click HERE to read a compelling, well written article from the United Kingdom's Observer-Guardian about New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina, and post-Katrina "recovery". Here's two excerpts from that article: "Hunters Field is a sacred spot. A scrubby tract in the shadow of the Interstate, it's the home of the Yellow Pocahontas, one of the most revered Mardi Gras Indian tribes, and a site of Super Sunday, perhaps the greatest day in the black calendar, when the tribes gather in full costume to pow-wow, make music, and party as only New Orleanians can. This is the heart of the Seventh Ward, rich in history and black culture. Before Katrina, I could look from here down St Bernard Avenue with its hole-in-the-wall bars, barbershops, used-clothing stores and social clubs, and it seemed no power on earth could snuff out the vitality here. Now, nothing stirs. The shops and bars are all boarded up, there is no power and no one is allowed to live in the houses. At the height of the flooding, the waters rose eight-foot deep and caused massive damage. Most homes that weren't destroyed are infected by mould. Yet, experts agree, the area can be salvaged. It would take a lot of money and commitment, but the Seventh Ward, unlike the Lower Ninth, isn't gone."... …the sense of loss is overwhelming. One morning, I ask B to retrace his Katrina journey with me. The apartment complex where he started is under guard, but everything else - the ravaged wasteground by the overpass, littered with fast-food containers and water bottles; the shattered glass in the forecourt of Skate Country; the felled and twisted neon sign outside Capt Sal's; the whole of Chef Highway, mile on mile of desolation - has been left to its own devices. 'I guess the clean-up crews must be on their break,' says B. We drive along the interstate, taking the same route as the trucks that delivered him and his group to the Convention Centre. None of the areas below shows any sign of life till we reach the CBD (Central Business District), which is almost back to normal. The centre has been scrubbed clean, inside and out, but remains closed to visitors. B finds the spot where he squatted, those dreadful days and nights. He relives it - the bodies blocking the bathroom door, the snatched children, the old women dying in their faeces, the National Guardsmen laughing among themselves, the heat, the stench, the helplessness - and he cries." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM That article was in the Sunday January 15, 2006 The Observer and is itself an excerpt from Nik Cohn' book 'Triksta' Here's another longish excerpt from that article, but IMO, the entire article is well worth reading and passing on to others: "The French Quarter isn't feeling much pain. At the height of the storm, it shipped less than a foot of water. A couple of bars on Bourbon Street never closed. All that's missing are the tourists. There's bitter irony in this, because tourism is the primary reason that New Orleans sold its soul. Before the 1980s, visitors were expected to adjust to native customs. Then the local economy ran aground. The oil boom of the Seventies collapsed, and big business, driven off by Louisiana's punitive taxes, left town. Even the port, the city's primary source of income, was diminished. That left the tourist dollar. The French Quarter, previously ramshackle, was transformed into a creole Disneyland. Shopping malls, convention centres, casinos and theme parks sprang up, enriching a power elite. Old white money and new black money thrived. The populace at large was left to rot. In recent decades, the mayors and the majority of the city council have been African-Americans, which merely proves that black rip-off artists can be as voracious as white. Pre-Katrina, tourism generated $1 million a day but not a dime ever seemed to reach the streets. And this was deliberate. Tourists need service - menial labour to clean their tables and make their beds, hose away their vomit on Bourbon Street. To provide it, the city adopted a policy of malign neglect. The old black neighbourhoods, rich in history and culture, were allowed to sink into ruin and the school system to founder. Without education, there was no way out. Many who refused to submit to grunt work in the Quarter became criminals, most often drug dealers. The public-housing projects that ringed the city's centre became armed camps, where killing was seen as proof of manhood. By 2000, New Orleans was America's murder capital, eight times as deadly as New York. For tourists, this was an invisible world. If they ventured beyond the Quarter at all, they took the streetcar past the mansions on St Charles Avenue or joined a walking tour of the Garden District, and few troubled to inquire what paid for such luxury. The only white faces seen in the projects belonged to social workers and drug-trawlers. The city was more deeply segregated than at any time in its history. Almost every project family lost someone to violence or jail. A culture of hopelessness took hold. These were the people herded into the Superdome and Convention Centre, the people on rooftops and overpasses, waiting to be rescued, and the people branded as looters, even though most took only what they needed to stay alive. If one small good has come out of Katrina it is that they're invisible no longer. That doesn't mean they now have a voice or will be treated better. In the Quarter, they already seem forgotten. About half the hotels and restaurants have reopened, catering to an army of relief workers. Many have the same habits as the tourists they've replaced. As a race, they're gigantic - huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree-trunks in floppy shorts - and they drive SUVs to match. New Orleans, shadowy and mysterious, birthplace of jazz, has been taken over by behemoths, blasting country and western on their car stereos." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM The Seventh Ward is a large and diverse area, starting on the River at a point on the triangle formed by Esplanade Avenue (and then the line turning north and extended along Bayou St. John Ave.) and Elysian Fields Avenue, and extending north past Dillard University all the way to the Lake. In this area of New Orleans, Neighborhoods, not the Ward, determine the demographics. The writer of the material copied in the British papers seems to be bigoted in his attitude towards Whites, and only marginally familiar with the 'seventh ward'. The Seventh Ward area on the River, Marigny Neighborhood, is 72% White. To the north is the typical "Seventh Ward Neighborhood," extending north to Agriculture Ave.; 94% Black, 1/3 of houses owner-occupied. This is part of the area of which Azizi talks. (For comparison, houses in the Ninth Ward are 57% owner-occupied). To the north and west is the Fairgrounds Neighborhood, 70% Black, about 44% of houses owner-occupied. The St. Bernard Neighborhood is just north of Fairgrounds, 98% Black. Only 17% of housing is owner-occupied. Interstate 610 (State 90) had already damaged this area. To the east is the Dillard Neighborhood, 88% Black, but 60% of housing owner-ocupied. Filmore Neighborhood, to the North, is more mixed, 57% Black, 86% owner-occupied. Topping off the Seventh Ward, Lake Terrace and Oaks Neighborhoods, to the North bordering Lake Ponchartrain, are 72% white and 95% owner-occupied. A lot of data here, but important; areas with high owner-occupancy are more likely to stay in the hands of the people of the 'hood.' Now the JOKERS, which at the moment happens to be FEMA, and Federal rebuilding of the walls, levees and other protection. Residents are in limbo until at least late Spring. New Federal flood maps are scheduled to be released later this year. These maps will tell residents whether- or how high- to rebuild their damaged homes. The Commission land use panel wants preliminary maps as soon as possible, but FEMA prefers to wait until the maps are finalized (some prelim. info. may be released in April-May). If owners rebuild now, all they have as a guide are the current required elevations, which may be substantially changed when new maps are released. Federally guaranteed Insurance will depend on these maps. If owners choose to rebuild following current requirements, and another flood comes, FEMA could rule them 'victims of repetitive flooding', and force them to raise their homes. When will the models for levees, walls, pumps and drainage canals be complete? Not until well into the next hurricane season. And then there will be the arguments and negociations and politics and--- What will owners of rental property do? Will they sell or rebuild and repair? Neighborhoods with low ownership may have a hard fight ahead. Some of this information here: www.nola.com, The Times-Picayune, article on new flood maps and regulations, specifically http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/113730870342020.xml Demographics and Neighborhood data, start with: Seventh Ward Neighborhood |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM What concerns me now is that these charettes are being conducted by folks who do not represent the areas that were destroyed... I heard a "planner" on the Diane Rheme Shoow the other day and he was talking about things which are all underway... Then Diane brought in an attorney from the 7th Ward who made this point and it seems to be an important point and most certainly has racial implications as well... I hope that the "planners" won't get too far ahead of the process, which based on my experience with various community projects ovetr the last 6 ot 7 years seems to be hard to prevent... Show a planner a piece of ground anf the wheels start spinnin'.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM Chocolate City: Here is how the responsible and capable Government on New Orleans conducts itself: Storms Payback From God, Nagin Says Mayor Faults War, Blacks' Infighting http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/16/AR2006011600925.html By Brett Martel Associated Press Tuesday, January 17, 2006; Page A04 NEW ORLEANS, Jan. 16 -- Mayor C. Ray Nagin suggested Monday that hurricanes Katrina and Rita and other storms were a sign that "God is mad at America" -- and at black communities, too, for tearing themselves apart with violence and political infighting. "Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country," Nagin said as he and other city leaders marked Martin Luther King Jr. Day. "Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves." Nagin, who is African American, also promised that New Orleans will be a "chocolate" city again. Many of the city's black neighborhoods were heavily damaged by Katrina. "It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans -- the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority-African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans." Nagin described an imaginary conversation with King, the late civil rights leader. "I said, 'What is it going to take for us to move on and live your dream and make it a reality?' He said, 'I don't think that we need to pay attention any more as much about other folks and racists on the other side.' He said, 'The thing we need to focus on as a community -- black folks I'm talking about -- is ourselves.' " Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?" The reply, Nagin said, was "We as a people need to fix ourselves first." Nagin also said King would have been dismayed with black leaders who are "most of the time tearing each other down publicly for the delight of many." A day earlier, gunfire erupted at a parade to commemorate King's birthday. Three people were wounded in the daylight shooting amid a throng of mostly black spectators, but police said there were no immediate suspects or witnesses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM Good stuff, Q and Geoduck. I wonder if the writer from the Obsrver was even there. His article states he visited New Orleans "six months after Katrina". You do the math - and my sources from there say the same. Bodies all over? Go back and verify how many fatalities in the Dome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM New Orleans a chocolate city- it has been one for a long time, and it will continue to be one. The city (pre-Hurricane) was 2/3 Black and will continue to be. The interactions among members of the large Black population insure a vital culture. The planners are putting forth ideas ranging from practical to cloud nine, but it will take time to vet them, and they must be integrated with federally mandated regulations and money available. Much cleanup must still be done; contractors and their workers have taken care of about 30% so far. One may quarrel with 'where done' and 'amount done' but so many decisions are involved, that it is hard to evaluate progress. People on the Gulf would agree more of those "gigantic- huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree trunks...behemoths" are needed to speed cleanup and demolition- contractors with FEMA jobs can't find enough qualified workers. That writer with the Observer whatever doesn't understand contract labor- these workers must have a large vehicle to transport their goods to a job. I had an in-law in the business who would operate a crane one contract, an earth mover on a dam the next and so on. Much of the time he not only had an SUV or heavy-duty pick-up, but also a truck and trailer since the job often was far from housing. It's not a life I would want although the money is good. (I wonder if that writer is a Hobbit). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM Ahhhh, yeah, the reference to N.O. as a "chocolate city" sho nuff got my wife, the P-Vine's, attention but I unnerstood what he was sayin'''.. Lotta of folks 'round the country ain't all that hooked up into black culture... But I knew when I heard it that I was gonna have some explaineratin' to do to the wife but she still ain't got a clue... Oh well??? Maybe that's a part of the problem in rebuildin' N.O.... Folks gonna need a vocabulary book in order to hold these charettes... One that goes both ways.... "Charettes"????? Bobert |
