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BS: KatrinaGate

Bobert 27 Aug 06 - 07:43 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM
Bobert 27 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 06 - 01:45 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM
Bobert 26 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM
Bobert 26 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM
Bobert 26 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM
Bobert 24 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM
GUEST 23 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM
Bobert 23 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM
GUEST 23 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM
Bobert 23 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM
GUEST 23 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM
GUEST 22 Jul 06 - 11:19 PM
GUEST 22 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 22 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM
GUEST 22 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM
Bobert 21 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM
GUEST 21 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM
GUEST 21 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM
SINSULL 21 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM
Bobert 20 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM
GUEST 20 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM
GUEST 20 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM
SINSULL 18 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM
GUEST 17 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM
GUEST 17 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 11:36 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 06 - 08:47 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 12:58 AM
Bobert 15 Jul 06 - 09:34 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM
Bobert 13 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Old Guy uncloaking 13 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM
Bobert 12 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 06 - 01:17 PM
Bobert 12 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 12 Jul 06 - 09:52 AM
Bobert 11 Jul 06 - 11:12 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 06 - 09:42 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:43 AM

Well, well, well...

Here we are on the eve of the 1at anniversary of Katrina and the subsequent "gate" and if one will just read GUEST's last post that's about all that the Bush apologists have come up to explain the absolute dismal failure on Bush and this folks to put their money where their post-9/11 mounths were in "protecting the American people"...

Ha!

No make that haha...

And the Bush failure isn't about "politics" but policies... That's what Bushites can't understand... Yeah, they constantly make references about folks hatin' Bush and bashin' Bush but when it comes down to it there are a lot of us who just see a string of failed and ill-thought-out policies my a very corrupt administartion that has used every little political trick in the book...

Yeah, I've made no bones about my distrust of the Dems but I genuinely hope they take one house of Congress so that we will finally get a real investigation into why the Bush administartion blew it's response to Katrina...

...among ohter scandals which have been swept under Karl Rove's carpet...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM

So what amount of money would have done the job? Sounds pretty simple to me. The amount requested?

What would have that amount have accomplished in the time frame?

Your assertion taht underfunding caused the disaster is bogus.

Did the levees fail because of lack of maintenence?

You see the disaster as a political opportunity and you just keep ragging on about the talking points provided to you by the Washington Post.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM

How much money???

I don't know... I'm not an engineer...

Are you??? If so, how much money do you think???

One thing fir sure is that the folks who are engineers asked for $100M from the Bush administration for maintenance the year before Katrina but got just 17% of what was requested...

Yes, that's right... Tight-wad Bush only funded the Army Corpes of Enginners at 17%!!!

And worse yet, GUEST: Had Bush funded the the levee system at 100%, that was just for Cat 3 protection!!!

Now I know you will continue the only line of argument that you have (which, BTW, is weak) in askin' folks like P-Gator and me to prove that had Bush funded the levee at what the Army Corpes of Engineers requested that NO would not have flooded...

Yeah, if this was Philosophy 101 yer line of defense is equivelant to the ol' "Prove you exist" question...

In other words...

You are flailin' at this point of the discussion with a rather juvinilistic line of reasoning... And attacking the Washington Post, while it may play well to rednecks, is nuthin' more than a not-so-clever line of defense either...

Might of fact, your rebuttals, if that's what you call them have become boringly predictable...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:45 AM

Correction: Is FEMA in the rescue business? Should have been is FEMA in the Evacuation business?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

Bush on the brain Bobert:

I am asking again what amount of money would it have taken under the Bush administration, to avert the disaster from happening?

Spending any amount of money on Fema could not have averted the disaster. Their job is to help AFTER the disaster.

Is FEMA in the rescue business?

Yes the federal governemnt has a responsibility in responding to regional disasters.

The key word here is responding, not jumping in there and wresting control from the first responders to try to prevent the disaster. Here are people drowning and in need of rescue because the levee system was flawed and neglected for years before the Bush adminstration, because they were not evacuated by the first responders before the disaster struck.

You are not only clueless but growing more belligerent as your bias and ignorance become more obvious.

I suppose after hurricane Andrew everything was fine? According to the WSJ, "FEMA hit its nadir with its 1992 handling of Hurricane Andrew"

As for promises, Blanco promised "we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about."

Why FEMA was unable to respond??? BHecause the Dems insisited on making FEMA part of DHS instead of leaving it alone. Now they want to change it back.

But it didn't say that in the Washington Post so you will have to fight that assertion until the last jet fighter fires the last rocket at your tough hide and you finally go down in flames.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

BTW, what do you think Bush thought "We need everything you've got..." (Memo written to Bush by Gov. Blanco, August 29th)????

BTW, part 2... Are you even aware that FEMA had promised 500 buses. GUEST??? Nah, didn't think so...

So if yer in a 24/7 emergency like Blanco was and yer havin' to make decisions at warp speed and folks are tellin' you that FEMA has 500 buses "standing by".... What, are y6ou going to stop everything else to be sure that FEMA is telling the truth???

Yeah, GUEST... I ain't too sure what you been smokin' but pass a little of it over this direction, will ya'???

Then by Sept 2nd, Blanco complained to the White House that requests to the feds for "40,000 more troops, ice, waterand food, buses, base camps, staging areas, amphibious vehicles, mobile morgues, rescue teams, housing, airlift and communications systems" to FEMA failed to come thru...

Do you have a clue yet, GUEST, as to why FEMA was unable to respond???

No dough, pal... It had been diverted into the DHS and the war in Iraq...

And you have the audasity to suggest that it is my ass who is reachin' fir straws....

LOL....

I have come to the conclusion that you, GUEST, are clueless...

Like I said... LOL... Yer arguments are weaker than branch water...

Might of fact, branch water would kick yer butt every way to Sunday....

BTW, you never answerted a very basic question in this discussion... Do you feel the federal governemnt has any responsibility in responding to regional disasters????

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM

LOL, GUEST...

It's yer as that has been whipped...

You have not rebutted any of the initian positions I laid out... And now that I'm tryinh' to hold yer feet to the fire on one thing at a time you've come up with nuthin' other than yer usual: What could Bush have done to avert the disaster...

What??? Have you appointed Bush as God, 'er what??? For the um-teeenth time, Bush couldn't have averted the danged hurricane... Yeah, the boy has grasped as much power as any executive in modern history but to stop hurricans??? Nah..

What Bush has done isn't about avertin' disasters, which come in natural and man-made forms, but in how well (or not) he was prepared to step in with real plans and real assests to "protect the American people"...

The proof is in the pudding...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

So flood plains do not get flooded? Gee, why do the call them flood plains? Why do you buy flood insurance?

Everybody time I go to a settlement I hear the crap about a 100 year flood plain and flood insurance. In my lifetime I have seen several 100 year flood plains get flooded more than once. Hence from my REAL WORLD experience I know flood plains flood frequently.

It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of "FEMA screwed up" from the Northeast?

Bobert your ass has been whipped. You don't have a leg to stand on and you are clutching at straws.

But keep on flailing away like Godzilla fending off the rockets.

We have been all thru "bush negelected the levees" "bush dismantled FEMA" "Bush would have screwed up FEMA even if the Dems had left it alone" It all boils down to "I don't like Bush so I will light one of my stink bombs to make him look bad"

Let's get back to what Bush could have done to avert the diasater in New Orleans.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM

"Flood plains get flooded frequently." (GUEST, last post)

Oh contrare, GUEST...

See, this perhaps is why I find yer endless cut 'n pastes hardly worth the time... Call up yer local FEMA representative and ask him or her if that statement alone is true...

See, that's why we're not gettin' anywhere... You do not live in the real world when it comes to facts...

Okay, I'll save you the embarassment of havin' to make the call...

Yer statement that "flood plains get flooded frequently" is not accurate... If you were to just look at any FEMA flood plain map in any area where you have a stream you'll find elevations within the flood plain district that will flood every 100 years and other areas that will flood every 500 years!!!

But don't believe me... Make the call if you wish...

Unfortunately, I have a little experience with this as I have owned and still own property in flood plains and pay my annual $800 for FEMA insurance for the one I own now...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

What the hell are you talking about?

Flood plains get flooded frequently. It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of FEMA screwed up from the Northeast?

When hurricane Rita hit it devastated Lake Charles like NO was devastated by Katrina but the place was evacuated and there were no deaths.

Was their plan funded? Were contracts in place? How did they pull it off?

Your underfunded plan claim is bogus. You have your nose up WAPOs ass so far you are not aware of happenings in the real world.

Rita whips Lake Charles, but no deaths reported
By Yancey Roy, Gannett News Service
LAKE CHARLES, La. — Hurricane Rita pulverized this petrochemical and casino city Saturday, wiping out electricity, phones and running water.

Yet it was not the worst-case scenario that some had predicted just days ago: 10 feet of water running through downtown Lake Charles. That was because virtually everyone in Cameron and Calcasieu parishes left the area at least a day before the storm hit. There were reports of very few injuries and no fatalities 12 hours after Rita passed through.

There were hundreds and hundreds of felled trees, flooded neighborhoods and boathouses, smashed windows, collapsed roofs, strewn carports and free-swinging electrical lines.

Bayou Contraband, which runs through the south side of town, spilled over its banks in areas and filled upscale neighborhoods.

A string of 13 consecutive utility poles were keeled over and rested on a usually busy highway near the McNeese State University farm south of town.

The wind howled all night, as Rita made landfall near the Texas-Louisiana border. A lower pitched, muscular hum signaled stronger blasts that peeled off roofs.

"Oooh, I never heard any wind like that in my life," said Donald Lewis, who walked around town surveying damage Saturday morning.

During the night, the storm ripped the roof off an adjacent apartment complex and slammed it into his house, he said.

"When I looked out, my mind flipped," he said, "because I never seen anything like that."

Further south, in low-lying, marsh-filled Cameron Parish, five feet of water stopped sheriff's deputies cold at the Gibbstown bridge, which spans the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway about 20 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico.

There was about nine feet of standing water in Holly Beach, a Cameron Parish community of ramshackle fish camps and weather-beaten houses on the shore, said Larry Jinks, Johnson Bayou fire chief.

"We can't get down there with a helicopter or a flat boat," said Tracey Webb, of the Cameron Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness.

In Lake Charles, Harrah's Pride, one of the floating casinos, came unhinged from its moorings.

Officials advised people not to come back — and added that they won't say until Monday when residents can return. Power could be out longer.

Lake Charles and most surrounding towns imposed curfews, most of them ordering people to be off the streets from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

No, GUEST, you are mistaken... And in denial... You apparently do not live in the real world... No slam, just fact...

Underfunded plans are a joke... I know... The business I owned and operated for two decades was in flood plane and because of this the town had to pay annual insurance premiums to FEMA for the businesses and homes in the flood plane and the businesses in the flood plane were required to file evacuation plans yearly with the town... These mimie plans become part of the larger ones... But these pieces of the ovarall plans are written by small business owners who do not have the aswsests to have contracts in place to carry out their plans.. That is reality... So it comes down to small business owners having plans in place where listed family members will carry out the evacuation of anything in the business that isn't anchored down...

I recall a freekish thunderstorm about 6 years ago that within an hour flooded the flood plane... There was no way that any small business had the resources or time to evacuate... Might of fact, there was one area where the water got to 4 feet deep and a buddy's auto repair shop was right in that bowl and there was no real way out short of swimming, ropes or a boat...

Now you can say that my buddy is the one responsible for not having a sufficient plan in place and while ***technically*** you are correct in a ***real wiorld*** sense you are very niave...

My buddy's business is just a micro-cosim of the real world...

This is why FERMA was created... There has long been an understanding that there is a point where areas of the country need disaster aid beyond that which might be addressed in underfunded plans...

Might of fact, the idea of FEMA is a bargain since for cities and towns would to have to consume resources that they clearly don't have by raiasing your and my taxes to have costly resources and assests available in place for the "big one"... If each town and city had to do this there would be alot of wasted taxes going to provide overlapping plans...

Think about it this way... Take the interstate highway system, for example... What if eash county and town had to fund, build and maintain the portion of the system that ran thru there county or town???

I mean no disrespect here but, get beyond the pipe dreams, GUEST...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM

#1 If the plan was unworkable, Why was it the plan? Why would they have an unworkable plan? That is a big a failure as not following the plan. Either way it is a failure of the state and local authorities.

I hear form Poppagator that the evacuation was successful because 80% of the people were evacuated. How about the other 20%? What was the problem there?

Sending people to the Super Dome and the convention center was a mistake. It was discovered in an evacuation in 1998 that the Superdome was not suitable.

So having an unworkable evacuation plan lets them off of the hook? Maybe the NRP was unworkable too.

How did evacuations in the surrounding areas go? Hurricane Rita? They learned their lesson and got the people out of there in time.

You can accuse me of not being in the real world all you want but it does not make it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

You are a hoot, GUEST... Apparently you don't have any real experience in real live governemnt, do you???

Okay, GUEST, rather than go point by point here lets just take it slow and easy 'cause when we go point by point you tend to not respond to various points...

So you think that my response to yer question about following plans is "bulls**t"... Lets talk a little about plans here...

This isn't about wheteher or not there was a so-called plan in place to evaculate NO but the realities of having a workable plan in place...

So let me ask you a few questions...

1. Take an average metropolitan area of 1,000,000 people... Do you have any idea what the cost would be to transport yer popultaion out of that area to a safe place???

2. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to have contracts in place to house and feed yer population for, say, 30 days???

3. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to restore your community back to where it is livable so that your population can return???

These are just the basics... Then throw in the disabled, the incarcerated, those folks living in homeless shelters, battered woman centers, half way houses... Throw in police protection of the paroperties of those evaculated, the colleges, the hospitals, yer movable assests... And not to forget, the first responders, the folks who will be there fighting the disaster, be them firemen or teams of folks with boats for rescue...

See, GUEST, you seem to want to minimalize the realities of a full scale evacuation by saying merely, "Well, there was a plan"... This is just one area where you an I differ... Plans are a dime a dozen... Any kid with a masters degree in public administartion can write a "plan"...

Problem is, when the chips are down, what we see is that underfunded plans don't work...

Now back to those budget work sessions that I've brought up a time or two... Cities and towns are strapped for cash... Yeah, they might have someone on staff that can put together a "plan" but if you go back to the questions I asked you, what do you really think is going to happen when the "big one" hits???

I mean, let's get real here, GUEST... You live in some kind of dream world if uyou think that major population centers have those kinds of readially available resources... A complete dream world bnot based on a smidgen of real world knowledge or wisdom...

Now TO WIT:

Even the Bush administration recognized that a major population cneter could become so "over whelmed" that it would need federal assistence to deal with a disaster... Alot of folks before him allreadt knew this but Bush is a hard head and would rather try reinventin' the wheel rather than accept the fact that the wheel allready esisted... Yes, the entire idea of FEMA had recognized that there were situations where local or regionial (COG's) governments could be overwhelmed... But in Bush's reinventing the wheel his own folks siad, "Hey, we need a plan in case a local or regional government is overwhelmed" and thus the National Response Plan...

Hey, the Dems didn't force this on them... They wrote it and in doing so recognized that local or regional governemnts could be over whelmed by a disaster...

Now before we go on will you admit that hanging endlessly on yer argument that NO had a "plan" is somewhat simplistic and not based on the real world???

Hey, we have to start somewhere...

A mean, if you want tro debate this, then lets get it on right here where it all begins...

You stickin' with yer premise that major population centers ahve adaquate and funded evaculation plans???

If that is yer argument then we will just have to stay right here until you better understand the real world...

No slam intended....

And no, you may think this is all a lot of "bulls**t" but I not only have been in budget sessions but also have a purdy good grasp of public administration...

But if this is where we fight it out, then this is where we fight it out... No reason to delve into a greater discussion until you at least accept the same realities that the Bush staffers accepted in writing the National Response Plan...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM

I go tractorin' and bush hoggin' too.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM

I'll respond in length later to yer posts, GUEST, but the manner in which the so-called "article" in the New Orleans Times-Picayne is written is very much the way "editorials" are written... It does not have the jounalistic integrity that I'm used to from reading the Post or NY Times...

We have a paper here in the DC area, The Washington Times, that lacks jounalistic integrity also... The Editorial page is thwe entire front page and is filled with suppositions and opinions...

More later... Tractor and bush-hog have laid claim to my day...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM

Bobert:

Here is a hot one among the thousands of documents. It is titled Goveners Correspondence 1 August 27 2005:


August 27, 2005

The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005,(the day before the letter was written) and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the
capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that
supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect
property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.

I am specifically requesting

emergency protective measures, (what is that?)

direct Federal Assistance, ($9 million later raised to $130 million)

Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, (Before the disaster?)

Special Needs Program assistance, (what is that?)

and debris removal."(before the debris is there?)

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance
needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain
Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in
Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:

. Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing on Standby.

. Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening Shelters and
establishing on Standby.

. Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.

. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.

. Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the
evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

. Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD):
Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.

The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:

. FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR � 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:
1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and
rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.
2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;
3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and
4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local
jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an
immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.

I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,

Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor


I don't see any mention of anything she needed before the storm hit. Am I missing something? She said they were evacuating and did not ask for any assistance fot that.

Bobert points to thousands of documents as proof that he is right and he does not know what is in the documents. He is too lazy to read them. They are proof that Blanco, the local and state authorities failed the people of New Orleans and Lousianna.

It is obvious that these things she is requesting are for after the storm passes, not during or before the storm.

In other words she said she had it under control but she would need help afterwards.

On August 27, 2005, Governor Blanco speaking on Hurricane Katrina told the media in Jefferson Parish "I believe we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about."

I touoght it was Bush that did the bragging.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:19 PM

"has provided thousands of documents related to her requests"

Have you looked at those documents? I unlike you have taken the time to browse an herer is the first one I looked at:


Report to the Goveners Office on media coverage of the New Orleans Levee Board.

The Board of Comissioners of the Orleans Levee District
New Orleans, La.

PROTECTING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY

Response to the NBC Nightly News investigative report of 9/14/05

s the Orleans Levee Board doing its job?

Critics allege corruption, charge the board with wasteful spending

The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans -- the same levees that failed after Katrina hit....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM

The answer to question #1 is evasive bullshit. They had emergency evauation plans and they did not follow their plan.

The answer to question# 2 I presume is no, you still wouldn't be happy.

The answer to #3 has nothing to do with the emergency plans of the local and state authorities.

The answer to #4 I presume is Bush could have done nothing to avoid the disaster.

the answer to question #5 does not apply to the time before the hurricane made landfall. The time when they could have and should have evacuated.

#6 was from the Washington Post. YOUR BEACON OF TRUTH, Not a blog. Can you see "Washington Post Staff Writers" or do you ignore it and bluster along? You claim something as being a lie before you even read it to see if it is a lie.

New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin’s court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration missed the boat.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city s government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

If you’re keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleansin one tripget ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they’d bothered to follow it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

Question #1: There was no way in Heck thaT NO was going to be evacuated without contracts in place to do it... And there's no city in the US, or world fir that matter (kuwauit being the exception) that has the dough to tie up that would be required to evacuate their city...

Qusetion #2: No, the Dems are no more than the lesser of two evils...

Guestion #3: Yes, Bush is mostly responsible for not funding the exact program, FEMA, that was the safety net that Americans thought was under them...

Qustion #4: You love this dumb qusetion, GUEST... Nuthin' at all... Bush couldn't have avoided the disaster... It's the response to the disaster is where Bush came up short...

Question #5: The local and state governments were ***over whelmed***... They were beggin' for assistence from the feds... Blanco, who the Bush apologists had accused of being asleep at the wheel, has provided thousands of documents related to her requests... Bush, on the opther hand, is sandbaggin' on releasing what he was doinhjg in response to the requests...

Qestion #6: Yezzir, there is a certain amount of tax dollars that go toward buyin' votes, be it as little as the printing and mailings that Congressfolk do to make themselves look as if they actually care about their constituents, or rainin' billions of dollars down in states that where Bush won by 2 or 3 points in 2000... Big difference between a letter and a check for 40 grand for imagined damages that Farmer Brown didn't even know occured on his farm... And fir the record, my leftwing rag is the Washington Post and New York Times whci both supoorted Bush's invasion of Iraq...

As fir the rest of the cut 'n paste Republican blog... Responding to them is an exercie in futility... They are financed by very rich people who are enjoyin' the heck out of this supposed economic recovery where 90% of Americans are doing worse than 6 years ago...

Yeah, these blogs are nuthing but propaganda... They pick thru piles of facts and only print those which make their side look as if it's the moral side when in fact these folks who finance these blogs are nuthin' but thieves who are rippin' off my hard earned tax dollars...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

Another IF.

What if New Orleans had been evacuated?

If the Dems were in power would you be happy?

Did Bush cause them not to evacuate?

What could Bush have done to avoid the disaster?

What could the local authorities done to avoid the disaster?

What politician does not buy votes with our tax dollar?
Did you read this in you favorite corporate, for profit, leftwing rag?:

Rejection of 'Earmarks' Angers Democrats
GOP Subcommittee Chairman Says He Won't Honor Party's Projects in Bill

By Dan Morgan and Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A06

Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the House's second-ranking Democrat, hoped to use funds from a $138 billion spending bill now before Congress to upgrade the computer system at St. Mary's College of Maryland, modernize laboratories at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy, and support a nonprofit group that repairs the homes of poor, elderly and disabled Marylanders.

Now those local projects, along with hundreds of others in districts represented by House Democrats, are jeopardized by an unusually nasty political battle that threatens to upset the traditional bipartisan comity of the House Appropriations Committee.
___ More On Congress ___

• Today in Congress: Today's floor and committee schedules

• Hot Bills: Legislation that editors of Congressional Quarterly are watching this week

• Appropriations Countdown: CQ tracks the progress of federal spending bills

• In Session: The Post's Monday preview of the upcoming week on Capitol Hill

• More on Congress: Visit Congressional Quarterly at CQ.com


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Rep. Ralph Regula (R-Ohio), who chairs the subcommittee that controls spending on education, health and jobs programs, recently stunned Democrats by announcing plans to reject every "earmarked" project they are seeking in the final, compromise version of the bill, which funds the departments of Education, Health and Human Services, and Labor.

His reason: When the House passed the bill on July 10, all 198 Democrats present voted against it, several of them saying it shortchanged education programs. The bill passed, 215 to 208.

Regula defended his decision in a letter to Rep. David R. Obey (Wis.), the committee's ranking Democrat, saying: "It is not unique for chairmen -- and ranking members, for that matter -- to use a member's support, or lack of it, as a factor in sorting through the thousands of program and project requests received during the year."

Last year's bill included 1,859 local projects -- sometimes called "pork" -- requested by House members, with a value of $896 million. By tradition, the projects have been divided fairly evenly between Republicans and Democrats.

Some say the rapid growth of such lawmaker-backed projects has injected a political element into the awarding of grants that are supposed to be based on merit and evenhanded formulas. Before Republicans took control of Congress in 1995, the Education-HHS-Labor bill was largely free of the earmarks.

But the decision by Regula, a moderate Republican with a history of working collegially with the other party, has infuriated Democrats. Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) called the action an "abuse of power." Obey said Democrats were being punished for voting their consciences in July.

And Hoyer said: "To tell the 130 million people represented by Democrats that they are shut out from getting health and education projects is consistent with the undemocratic, autocratic, confrontational process that's being followed by House Republicans."

But Regula has held his ground. He said in his letter to Obey that the several hundred million dollars initially set aside for Democratic projects will be directed to school-related programs across the country.

Hinting that the nine Republicans and one independent who voted against the bill would also go without their projects, he wrote: "I am certainly not trying to intimidate members."

But that is exactly what Democrats say Republicans are trying to do.

Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and other House conservatives have long chafed at the clubby, bipartisan environment of the powerful Appropriations Committee, where Congress's constitutionally mandated power over the nation's purse strings resides.

Conservatives regularly brand the committee -- regardless of which party controls it -- as a big-spending body that frustrates all efforts to control the federal budget.

Regula has indicated he will seek the committee's chairmanship when Rep. C.W. "Bill" Young (R-Fla.) steps down in 2005. Democrats conjecture that Regula may be trying to show GOP colleagues he is fiscally conservative and tough enough to deserve their votes.

"I think Ralph Regula is a good person," Hoyer said. "I think he's been put in a position by a very hard-nosed caucus and by his own desire to make a statement."

Regula said in an interview: "In the final analysis, the chairman has a lot of decisions to make. On the other hand we're a team, and we reflect Republican policy."

The fight threatens to polarize a committee that has been an "oasis of decency and sanity," said Allen Schick, a fellow at the Brookings Institution.

No panel in Congress has been more closely identified with liberal Democratic priorities of the past 40 years than Regula's subcommittee. It funds the Head Start preschool program, federal aid to education, job training, aid to families unable to pay winter heating bills and other initiatives dating to President Lyndon B. Johnson's War on Poverty and Great Society agenda.

A Who's Who of top House Democrats serves on it. Pelosi was a member until recently. Hoyer, Obey, Nita Lowey (N.Y.), who chairs the party's campaign committee in the House, and her predecessor in that job, Patrick J. Kennedy (R.I.), serve on it. So do Reps. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (Ill.), a high-profile black lawmaker, and Lucille Roybal-Allard (Calif.), a prominent Hispanic lawmaker.

Democrats say the real victims of Regula's policy will be the poor. Of the nation's 50 poorest congressional districts, 42 are represented by Democrats. Democrats say schools and community groups in these districts often need help from their member of Congress for worthwhile projects.

Hoyer had hoped to get $400, 000 -- the same as last year -- for a group called Rebuilding Together. The nonprofit organization works with volunteers to rehabilitate homes of the poor, elderly and disabled.

Rep. Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) was seeking $2 million for the Sheppard Pratt Health System in Towson, and $560,000 for the Anne Arundel County Health Department to enhance bioterrorism preparations.

Other Maryland Democratic House members had asked for funds for improvements at the Holy Cross Hospital in Silver Spring, a community health facility in Baltimore County and the Aberdeen magnet high school.

But Regula signaled in his letter to Obey that he would not waver.

"I do believe that the House bill was a fair and balanced bill that deserved the support of members from both sides of the aisle," he wrote.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

No, it's Bush's fault...

He makes the decisions on where the money goes or doesn't go and he gutted FEMA... Pure and simple...

And his administration didn't order the feds to mobilize until 36 hours after Katrina inspite of requests from both state and local governments and warnings from Micheal Brown some 2 days before Katrina that this was going to be the "big one"... It won't take 35 years for the fact to come out... It's allready out...

As fir the toher "gate" thread, I've asked for a anme change and and when I get it, more folks will get into the discussion... BTW, GUEST, wouldn't it bother you if the Dems were in power and takin' yer hard earned tax dollars and buyin' votes with them???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM

All of these "had this of happened" or "had that have happened" is speculation and rhetoric.

If the local authorities "had done their job" What would the outcome have been?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I guess we won't know until 35 years from now.

Are you ready to admit that the disaster was mostly the fault of people other tham Bush?

How's your newest "gate" gate doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

Not a typo, Bobert. Sad but true the Democrats would have spent the next months pointing the finger and covering their butts too.

Like it or not, GUEST, Katrina is one of the black eyes on the Bush administration. It was however a disaster waiting to happen. That blame lies with federal, state and local authorities for the past 25 years.

Conditions in New Orleans are horrible even now - a year after the original event. That is Bush's fault. And you can bet an oil field that had this hurricane flattened a city in his home state, help would have been fast and furious. Had a few thousand well-coiffed Republican ladies been trapped in a sports arena, no amount of money, time, or manpower would have been spared to get them fresh drinking water.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM

LOL, GUEST, GUEST???

First of all, knowin' Sins as I do I think there was one of those typo tyhings in sayin' that the response to Katrina would have been worse under the Dems...

While I ain't much of a Dem, their record with disasters will Clinton was makin' the calls in the 90's was a lot better than what we've seen with the Bush folks...

Oh yeah, Bush did funnel millions and millions into the hands of folks in Florida, many of whom suffered no real damage, after a hurricasn in '04.... But this had nuthin' do do with disaaster relief but politics... Bush has never been shy in spending other people's money to stay in power.....

And GUEST continues to pound this "blame-to-locals" drum as if they had the ****contracts**** funded and in place to make evertything work...

What could Bush have done??? Well, GUEST, apparently are avoiding the the main crux of this debate as if it was a radiation pit... He could have funded FEMA!!!! What don't you undersatnd here??? Is this too over yer head, 'er what??? No, rather than put his koney where his mouth was, Bush used FEMA as a slush fund to fund DHS and his war in Iraq... FEAM was gutted!!! What don't you understand aboput this???

Okay, hey, I can live with you just comin' out and saying that the feds shouldn't be into helping communities with overwhelingh disasters... I've asked you repeatedly to say that and if you would just say that, we could just say that we have differences of opinion on what the federal government's role is or ain't... But, no, you won't answer that question... Ain't rocket surgery here, GUEST... If that's your opinion then fine... I can, without agreein' with ya', live with that...

But, no... You continue yer defending Bush who:

1. Gutted FEMA

2. Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed

3. After 9/11 and his constant campaingn trail speech telling folks that he was "working hard" to "protect the American people..."

But that's the nice thing about being a GUEST... Since you have no transparancy, you can say whatever you want irregardless of facts and reality....

I don't have that luxarty but it don't matter 'cause I have the truth and guess what, GUEST??? The historians will get this one right...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM

Sinsull:

No. It was far from efficient. Did you hear that Amtrack offered to haul people out?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html

"...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

Sinsull:

Thanks for stating the obvious:
For the record, this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president.

Nothing GWB could have done would have averted this disaster.

I don't know about needing firms and contracts when a city has it's own public transportation system "rotting away". Also there are emergency services to transprot the infirm elderly.

Naturally some people will resist but the can't say they were not told.

GWB is partially responsible for the rescue after the disaster. That effort would have been gratefully reduced and simplified if a mandatory evacuation had been enforced during the two whole days before the hurricane hit.

Bobert uses the disaster like a hammer to pound a stake into GWB without regard to any local authorities whom are more at fault. If he was as compasionate as he claims he would be mad at the folks that are really at fault.

In other words just another nasty, one way Bush rant by another Bush hater, blinded with anger.

Anybody that disagrees is labled a Bushite in Bobert's steel trap mind while he points to the number of posts as if that proves him right.

If he is so right, why are there so many posts?

Bobert, you have not put forth anything that GWB could have done to avoid the disaster and loss of life, even after 600 +- posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Well, Sins, thanks for comin' into this twp person discussion/debate... As you can plainly see, GUEST is on the defensive using whatever he or she can grasp...

When I mention the possibility of a nuclear device being used in N.O. GUEST makes the assumption that it it kills everyone in N.O. and then evades the question I asked.. Normal... This has been going on now for months...

Then GUEST says we should play nice, whcih I have purdy much tried to do with the exception of calling folk knotheads now and then and occasionally getting a tad testy under the barrage of personal attacks but, hey, So I go laong with the "no slamin" and then GUEST says somethin' along the lines that I'm a rodeo clown and oughta get back in the barrel????

See, like go figure... Must be nice to bge GUEST and make up whatever you want, distort wahtever you want and...

...change the rules whenever you want...

Hey, I've been here going on 10 months and over 600 posts and answered every single rebuttal that Bush apologists have thrown my way...

Even the dumb questions that were asked just as diversioary debating tactics that if were used in a court of law the oppsoing lawyer would ask for "relevance"...

And, yes, Sins, I have made the point over and over why there wasn't any money left for FEMA... FEMA is just Georges Bush's private little slush fund to be robbed for his various wars...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM

Question:
Guest, are you saying that the disaster in New Orleans was handled properly and as efficiently as possible?
If not, where were the errors made so that we can correct the problems in time for the next disaster.

Observation: The Canadian government heard of the impending disaster and sent help In ADVANCE. They were the first to arrive and provide aid. Why? And why not local agencies?

Last, Telling people to evacuate when they have NO means of accomplishing it is absurd. There will always be people who will insist on remaining; there always are. And sometimes they die. But there were those who would have left in a minute if they had the bus fare or a reliable car.
Evacuation plans have to include firm contracts guaranteeing rides for anyone who needs them. School buses, Amtrack, planes, whatever.
One story that came out of NO was of a young man who STOLE a school bus and saved a bunch of people. He was supposed to be arrested for the theft.

Tons of ice circulating around the country, temporary housing rotting away out of state - these are unacceptable wastes of money and effort.

For the record,this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president. BUT the National Guard would have been stronger were many of them not overseas. AND the National Guard is desperate for new recruits to handle local emergencies but can't get them because sensible most people don't want to be sent off to the Middle East to die in a car bomb. Bush's rush into war using outright lies is the cause of that current disaster in the making.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM

IF a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans, an evacuation would have been unecessary. There would have been no one to evacuate.

Prevention of e nuclear terrorist act is the way to avoid that disaster which GWB is concentrating on. Catch the bastards before they do it. But people bitch and complain about efforts to detect them.

They want to be protected but how? Mental telethapy?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM

So are you saying that there has never been any purpose for federal spending for responding to disasters, GUEST??? Sho nuff sounds as if you are...

"Well, Heck, Ralph... They can't float outta that mess on a dollar bill..."

Is that where you are coming from, GUEST??? Okay, lets say that instead of Katrina, a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans... Would you still advocate the use of an unfunded evacuation plan or would you, like with Katrina, just let the Red Cross and churches do the best that they could???

Maybe this is a larger question about what you expect for your federal tax dollars... I expect the feds to have a plan and funding inplace to deal with disasters...

Apparently, we don't agree on that...

As for Katrina being some kind of tool for bashing Bush let me remind you how this thread started... On another thread I challenged a Bush-supporter to pick any danged policy Bush policy that that GUEST chooze that he or she thought they could defend... Thie GUEST chooze Katrina... That's the way it went down, my friend... One of yer buddies chooze Katrina and as eye I have not read too much in the way of a health rebuttal to the points I made last October...

And please don't confuse disasters with responses to disasters... Here, Bush get a break... He didn't 'cause Katrina... All ghe did was gut the funding for the one federal agency that had for many years had the resources and staff to coordinate disaster relief...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

And that would have evacuated New Orleans?

That would have averted the disaster?

Why don't you just admit that you are using a disater as a tool for your anti Bush campaign?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

No, GUEST, a plan becomes a plan when contracts for services are in place... Like it or not, that's reality, my friend...

And Bush could have left the funding levels in place for FEMA rather than use FEMA as a slush fund for DHS and the Iraq occupation... That would have been a good start...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:36 PM

So a plan is not really a plan and no one can be blamed for not following their plan unless Bush is some what related to the plan.

Then it becomes a **REAL** plan.

All right now, you tell me how the Federal Government could have evacuated new Orleans.

And Bush is not my hero any more than Nagin is youre hero. You know that buy you keep repeating it to be irritating.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:47 PM

Rodeo clown, GUEST??? Seems as if the truce on no slammin' has come to an abrupt end...

But nevermind yer attempt to drive a stake thru my heart as a voice who doesn't buyninto yer reviasionist thinking in regards to yer hero's absolute and utter failures in dealing with Katrina...

Yes, it's nice to say that towns and cities have "evacuation plans" but a plan without resources plus 89 cents will get you a 12 ounce cup of coffee at Pete's Quik-Stop...

Heck, I operated a business for 20 years in a flood plain and know that "evacuation plans" are all over the place but...

... lets get real hear, GUEST...

This is the real world an' not some rodeo clown world of yers...

Look what happened after Katrina... The Red Croos almost went bust spendin' all it's reserves... The American people sent millions of bucks to try to help the evacuation and resettlement... And this with a "evaculation plan" in place???

Hey, GUEST, you seem to be a right interllegent feller 'er felleress... Had the Red Cross not stepped up, had communities like Baton Rouge and Houston not stepped up, had the American people not stepped up the so-called "evacuation plan, was nuthin' more than some college kids term paper...

Let nme give you an example of how things work in the real world... Take Dulles Airport in NoVa. and just snow removal... Do you realize that Dulles has dozens of private contractors who leave snow removal equipement at Dulles all winter long??? Do you realize that Du7lles pays these private contractors even if not the first flake of snow falls???

This is waht ****real**** plans are about... Contracts, and lots of 'um, BTW... Now that is just snow removal at one airport...

Take any large city and tell the mayor that he is going to have to have the contractors in place to evacuate and relocate it's citizens...

Yeah, this is what I mean... We ain't talkin' about some college kids term paper here but real and *****funded***** plans...

No city in America is in that position... New Orleans is the proof...

Now back to the National Response Plan fir a minute... The folks who wrote it recognized exactly what I have been saying here and that is that some catastrohies are bigger than a local, or even a state governemnts, irregardless of how many unfunded plans they have in the filing cabinet, can deal with...

So, yeah, you can continue to come up with yer "rodeo clown" insults against me but when this day is done, you and I know both know that was a bad move on yer part... (No slam...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:58 AM

Ain't nobody laughing but you Bobert. It shows you know very little except expertise in smear campaigns.

How's this for cash strapped?:

In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large.

Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon.

For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways such as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that is less than forecast.


Now laugh that off and go jump back in your barrel like a rodeo clown.

Here is a link to thier emergency plan page.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:yVKnPGIo37UJ:www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx%3Fportal%3D46+new+orleans+evacuation+plans&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&lr=lang_en

The New Orleans City Assisted Evacuation Plan
Purpose
The purpose of the City Assisted Evacuation Plan (CAEP) is to help citizens who want to evacuate during an emergency, but lack the capability to self-evacuate. The CAEP is not intended to replace the individual�s personal responsibility in preparing their own evacuation. It is meant to be an evacuation method of last resort and only for those citizens who have no other means or, have physical limitations that prohibit self evacuation.
Synopsis
The general concept of the CAEP is that the city utilizes its facilities, manpower and other resources to provide assistance to citizens who cannot self-evacuate during the declaration of an emergency. The City of New Orleans, Office of Homeland Security and Public Safety, will have the overall command and responsibility for execution of the CAEP. The plan is designed to get all citizens and visitors out of the city prior to the tropical storm winds of a hurricane or during any other emergency that requires total evacuation of the city. This includes citizens without transportation and persons in need of medical resources (NMR). The plan uses the Morial Convention Center (MCC), Union Passenger Terminal (UPT) and Louis Armstrong Airport (MSY) as debarkation points for an emergency evacuation. The plan requires evacuation by air, rail and ground transportation to be fully effective. The goal is to have the CAEP completed in a 36 hour time period beginning at the issuance of evacuation orders by the governor and the mayor. The first 12 hours of the period being preparatory to implant security at the processing and staging centers and to acquire transportation resources. The City will have the overall responsibility for getting the citizens from pre-identified pickup locations to the registration centers and debarkation points. The State, supported by external entities, will have the responsibility for moving the persons from the threat area and into shelters. When the threat has passed and re-entry is authorized, this process will be reversed. The CAEP is activated by notifying all the partner governmental and non-governmental entities that an evacuation has been ordered and the facilities, transportation and emergency response personnel should execute their component of the plan. The city will establish evacuee processing and staging centers at local hotels, the MCC and the UPT. The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, in conjunction with other State Departments (DOTD, DSS, DHH, LSP), will activate their plans developed to transport and shelter evacuees. This synopsis does not detail all aspects of the CAEP, but is meant to provide a quick overview of the general concept. The attached flow charts and the individual operations plans describe the movements at each facility.
2
Activation
The CAEP is activated upon orders from the Mayor and in concurrence with the Governor following the declaration of an emergency. The Mayor�s declaration of anemergency must be followed by a specific order to the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness (OEP) to launch the CAEP. The Director of OEP also serves as the EOC Coordinator in the New Orleans Emergency Operations Center (EOC). It is assumed that in a potential hurricane event that the EOC will be activated well in advance of the actual declaration of an emergency as officials track the storm. The EOC Coordinator then directs the Operations Section Chief to initiate the CAEP by notifying the components of the EOC tasked with launching the plan. The Operations Section Chief, upon receiving the order to launch the CAEP, will use the components of the Operations Section and prepared check lists to ensure that all of the required internal and external entities necessary to execute the CAEP have been notified that the plan has been initiated: These organizations include the following:-
Local Government Agencies
New Orleans Office of Homeland Security and Public Safety
New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness
New Orleans Police Department (NOPD)
New Orleans Fire Department (NOFD)
New Orleans Mayor�s Office of Technology (MOT)
New Orleans Emergency Medical Services (EMS)
New Orleans Health Department (NOHD)
New Orleans Council on Aging (NOCA)
Other Orleans Parish Departments
Jefferson Parish OEP
Plaquemines Parish OEP
St. Bernard Parish OEP
Port Authority
Harbor Police
State Agencies
Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (LOHSEP)
Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (LOTD)
Louisiana Department of Social Services (LDSS)
Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals (LDHH)
Louisiana National Guard (LNG)
Louisiana State Police (LSP)
Non Government Operated Entities
AMTRAK
Morial Convention Center (MCC) (owned by the State)
Union Passenger Terminal (UPT) (owned by the City)
Louis Armstrong Airport (MSY)
Regional Transit Authority (RTA)
Louisiana Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA)
American Red Cross (ARC)
New Orleans Hotel and Lodging Association (NOHLA)
Lakefront Airport (LA)
Citizens Emergency Response Team (CERT)
It is expected that the State agencies above will make the necessary notifications to the
appropriate Federal agencies such as the Federal Emergency Management Agency
(FEMA), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Department of Transportation
(DOT) and the Department of Defense (DOD).
Components of the EOC tasked with making notifications that the CAEP has been
launched will monitor the development of that particular component of the plan and keep
the Operations Section Chief advised accordingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:34 AM

LOL, Guest...

Yer back to all these elaborate plans that cash strapped cities are supposed to somehow find that extra cash to have in place... Do you have any idea in dollar amounts what an evacutaion plan would require a major population center to come up with???

A plan would involve hundreds of contracts with various venders that the furnish all kinds of basic needs... It wiuld involve an entire deperatment with l;awyers, procurement specialists, clerical forks, etc...

Now go tell yer mayor that you think he oer she should organize and fund such an effort and get ready to be laughed out of his or her office...

Thus... the logic of a FEMA...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

Evidently Tellin' folks to get out was the emergency plans in NO. Did they follow their own plans?

You think they don't have to because the Federal government is there to take over their job when their incompetence shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM

Ahhhh, GUEST, you aren't living in the real world either...

Tellin' folks to get out ain't a plan...

You need a dose of reality, too... How 'bout attending the next budget hearing in yer town for a good dose of reality... You are so far removedd from the real world that yer comments, if they don't echo those of some many ohter completely ignorant people, would be laughable...

Unfortuataely there are way too many folks in cyber world who never had to live in the real world...

Like I said, go attend ther next budget hearing at the closest town or city to you and then come back with yer simplistic, bumper sticker arguments...

(No slam, just fact...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM

If If If If. What if a flea farts in Patagonia and it creates a hurricane that wipes out your town? Are you ready with a plan?

Ifs are not in the real world. A hurricane bearing down on the gulf coast is for real. Bush telling them to get out is real. The fact that they did not get out is real.

"terrorists had blowing the heck outta New Orleans or poisined its water" is not for real. It is an if.

There are an infinite number of ifs which the national response plan could not handle.

What you need to come to grips with is what did happen.

And why do I need to memorize the national response plan? I got my own plans. Get the hell out of town when a hurricane is approaching and help as many others as I can.

You never know when a terrorist attack will happen and prevention is the best way to handle them. However the LIBs, Anarchists, Democrats and socialists are doing everything they can to keep the administration from finding and stopping terrorist cells. Mainly because they don't like GWB. They didn't want him to be elected but he got elected anyway. Now all they want to do is tear him down. Spending too much on this, not enough on that, he choked on something, he looks dumb. They are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats that didn't get a their way and now they are going to misbehave to get attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM

Familiarize yourself with the National Reponse Plan, Old Guy...

So what if the terrorists had blown the hack outta New Orleans or poisined its water??? Bush wasn't prepared either way...

And, BTW, how much money would it take for the closest city to you to be prepared for a massive disaster??? If yer in doubt call that city's mayor and then attend a couple budget hearings for a dose of reality...

You are not living in the real world...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy uncloaking
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM

You're the expert on when Chertoff did what.

I think that when Bush was saying he is going to protect the American people, he was talking about terrorist attacks. We haven't had any more so he has done that so far.

This hurricane jumped up and bit him in the ass while he was focusing on terrorism. Everything he does is political anyway. One party or the other is bitching no matter what he does.

I am not in love with GWB. I don't like most of his policies. But I think Kerry would have been a worse disaster. The next crop of candidates looks just as bad. All they do is try to figure out which campaign promises will get them elected. But how can anybody get elected without party backing?

I wish we could get rid of political parties completely so our they can make decisions based on what is best rather than what their party wants. It's like two rival gangs trying to dominate each other and the American people are in the crossfire.

As long as you agree that not all of the blame falls on Bush, we are somewhat in agreement.

Those locals down there fooled around when they could have been getting people out. Excuses like can't find a bus driver don't fly. In an emergency I or just about anybody can drive a bus. I drove a standard size school bus around once when I was a kid.

I have talked to contractors who are hesitant to go there and do any work. The problem is who pays and when. The insurance companies are screwing around with folks. That said, they should have had flood insurance.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM

Well, yeah, GUEST, it is common for governmental agencies to take a budget and add an extra 1O to 15 percent to it knowin' that it's gonna be cut by, ahhhh, 10 or 15 percent... This is almost S.O.P. in not only government but in the private sector, as well...

But an 83% cut??? I mean, let's get real here... You can't possibly believe that the Corps only needed $17M to maintain the levee and kew that they would have to request $100M to get the $17M???

Was the disaster planned out??? LOL... No, Bush may have usurped a lot of power since 9/11 but makin' hurricans ain't in the scope of what he can or cannot do... But the response to the disaster did bring one thing into focus: Bush has been spending way too much time and tax payers money conducting his wars of choice and not paying enough attention to the nuts and bolts of really protecting the American people...

And, not to get too far off course here, but this isn't entirely Bush's fault in that our political system is so driven by money and our leaders are too busy chasin' bucks to stay in power than doing a good job once there... Yeah, since 2000 it has gotten much worse... Bushm in order to maintain his power has had to raise one heck of a lot of money and has spent more time politicin' that any president in history... Yeah, lots of those trips where Bush apologists say Bush is on the job are nuthin' more than fund raising trips...

But with that said, Bush is the CEO and he was AWOL (too busy playing politics and not enought playing manager...) when the heavy lifting was needed to get the National Reponse Plan funded and workable... Especially after 9/11...

Do you realize there was supposed to be mock disaster run-through in Louisana well prior to Katrina but that the federal funds didn't come thru???

That's what I mean...

The boy was just too focused on fund raising, keeping the American people entertained with a new and shiny war, politicing for the '04 election and not enough time at the office doing what he called the "hard work"...

But in the '04 election we heard over and over the phrase "It's my job to protect the American people"... You know, almost as if he believed that he had done the heavy lifting to make that claim... But we now see that he hadn't done the "hard work"... This "protect the American people" was just another slick ad-man phrase that had come outta Karl Rove's office that had absolutley nuthin' to do with reality...

And that is why this is a scandal...

Yeah, Bush may escape the truth of Katrina for awhile but historian will get it right... There's just too much evidence to escape... And when they take on Katrina there won't be a revisionist alive with the capabilities to sugar-coat the major blunders by Bush and his inner circle in regards to the preparedness of the Bush administartion to protect the American people from a catastrophy, man made or not....

And to this very day the Bush administartion continues to sandbag and hope that Katrina will just fade away but it won't...

And, BTW, GUEST, you still haven't gotten around to the time line question of when Chertoff ordered mobilization...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:17 PM

Bobert:

Was the Katrina disaster planed out?

How often does any branch of government or state or city get everything they ask for? Can you give me an example?

I remember making things for government agencies just to use up the money they had not spent yet, leftover money, so they could ask for more for the next year.

The SELA program began in 1996 and with 32 projects completed to date the Program is projected for completion by the year-end of 2007.

2007 is a little late for Katrina.

What "plans and resources" did the local government lack except grey matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

Nah, GUEST, on runninh' for office... I've been approcahed a couple times but I'm way tyoo busy for that... My business partner has been on town council for the last 4 years and has just finished her term the end of last month and it was like getting released from prison...

I like my involvement with the local Main Street program just fine...

Now, back to why the "gate' after Katrina... When 9/11 hit the Bush adminstration did majoe reshuffling of policies and departments... Yes, part of the reshuffling came as a result of the the Dem proposal for the DHS but the reshuffling of funding, orgainization and policy was done primarily within the Bush adminsitration...


If you'll recall, right after 9/11 there was a lot of talk about the need to shore up first ressponders for dealing with disasters... The National Response Plan was written by the Bush administartion, not Congress and it dealt with scenerios, be them created by bad men or nature, where an area was so overwhelmed by a disaster that the federal governemnt would mobilize...

Then we stared hearing from mayors and governors that the Bush adminstartion was lolli-gaggin' on funding the verioua first response organizations... Might of fact, the National Coucil of Governors complained of the lasck of adequate funding for these programs and departments...

It's easy to say that the state and local governements should have plans and resources to deal with their own problems but reality is, they can't... The federal governemnt, under Bush, has allready shifted more finacial burden on the states over the last 6 years allready and there is a breaking point for those governemnts... That's why there was a National Response Plan to begin with...But if there aren't the federal dollars being invested to impliment such a plan then the plan becomes an accident waiting to happen...

...and thus: Katrinagate...

The Bush adnministration was not properly funding it's own plan...

As for whether or not a fully funded Army Corp's of Engineers maintenance program would have lessened the damage, there really isn't any wholesale agreement among engineers. An engineer, Henter Johnston, of Johston and Associates, for example says "It the Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, there is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in much better position to remove the water on the streets once the pump satrts working."

But we do know that Bush choze to fund these maintenance programs at 20% and less...

... which, as America's CEO, ha has the constitutiona right to do...

Where the gate comes in is that Bush knew that he was very, very thin on not only funding the componets necessary to impliment the NRP but also on maintaining the levees, all the while going around the country boasting about it being his "job to protect the American people..."

Had he funded them properly then he could have made this claim...

...but he didn't...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 09:52 AM

Bobert you need to run for some sort of office so you can make a difference in our government the right way. It looks like you have the stuff. There are too many rabble rousers and not enough real people willing to step up to the plate and enter government. Hell if you get elected, make it to Washington and start making sense, I might even vote for you.

I do not Monday morning quarterback. I sort through the facts and form an opinion, When I see others trying to filter out some facts in order to get to the conclusion they want and trying to foist that opinion on others as "I see things that normal people do not", I feel compelled to say so.

I don't expect you to change your opinion, just to say that the Katrina disaster was not GWB's fault but partially his fault. And that only problems with the aftermath, due to the failure of others, were his fault

First of all to name it Katrinagate is an attempt to make it look like it was planed out like the Watergate break ins. That in itself is a distortion.

I don't see how any amount of money given to Army Core of Engineers could have made the levees Katrina proof due to the time frame and things that were not known like steel sheeting not going deep enough. The flood gates might have saved the destruction and loss of life and the money was there. However people that knew better blocked their construction for ecological reasons. I wonder if the ecology suffered worse because they were not built?

The war did have a deleterious effect because the local authorities did not do their job and evacuate. If they had done their job the rescue would have been insignificant.

So we can't go to war because a local government might screw up and need to be bailed out?

Suppose North Korea invaded South Korea. Should we have to check up on the competence and preparedness of every state and city in the US before we send troops?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:12 PM

Bite me...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

bobert, you is a wonderful person - I know - 'cause you tell me so.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:42 PM

Question #1... No, Bush could not have prevented the disaster... That is rather obvious...

Question #2... Yes, in taking money from where ever he could find it to fund the War in Iarq, icluding funds that Congress had earmarked for FEMA, Bush, in essence, was not covering up the rear...

Question #3... See answer to question #1... The disaster was going to be a disaster irrwegardless of the Bush administartion's inablity to respond...

Question #4... Most likely... I think most engineers would agree with this assesssment... But keep in mind that the SELA had not seen this kind of underfundining for maintenance of the existing levees... Bill Clinton funded the maintenance at close to 100% of the Army Corps of Engineers request... Bush's funding was between 17% and 20% of requested funds... Now, here's where we part ways, GUEST... Had Bush had more monet available for domestic spending programs there is a chance, perhaps even a good chance that if the Army Corps of Engineer had recieve the levels of funding that it had requested under Clinton that there is, at least a chance, that the leeves wouldn't have been breeched... If you, GUEST, are an engineer, as the folks who are hired by the Army Corps of Engineers are, may they need you to come in and tell them why the $100M they requested in 2003 was wrong and where they had misplaced the decimel point... All I know is that these folks, who are slide rule kinda folks requested $100M to maintian the system and Buish sent um' $17M to $20M??? You can do the math...

Qusetion #5... No, again, GUEST, the disater was Hurricne Katrina... You won't find me saying that Bush 'caused the hurricne... But the reponse on the Bush administration showed that while Bush was long on talk (i.e. "It's my job to protect the American people..") when the chips were down we found that the Bush administration hadn't done the heavy lifting in setting policies, procedures and funding in place to protect the American people from either a natural or terrorist driven disaster... Yeah, Katrina exposed the Bush administration as one long on talk but short on walk...

Question #6... Again, nuthin' would have prevented Katrina from coming a shore but a fully funded FEMA, be a cabinet level department ot not, would have greatly cut the human loses if for no other reason than a fully funded FEMA, with an operational National Reponse Plan would have mobilized 3 days earlier than it did and that would have made a bif difference in the evacuation... Remeber, the Natioal Response Plan, which incidently failed under Katrina, called for mobilization from either natural ot terrorist situations...

Now as to GUEST's observations about me as person... Hey, when the chips are down and it is Monday morning quarterbacking it's comes down to folks payin' attention to detail... And it comes down to doing what you say... And it come down to the heavy lifting that is required to be successfull...

With that said, yes, as someone who has has always had by back and flanks covered, I know what it takes to be successfull... I have been successfull in life for all the rerasons that George Bush has been a failure...

Had I been in his position on 9/11 I would have take a very different path... When Bush turned a massive police axction ito some kind of absatract war against abstract enemeies he set the United States on a course for failure... Since then he has taken gobs of money that could have been used to help Americans to fight these rediculously unwinnable wars and funded these expensive and very problematic occupations...

Why did he do these things??? Well, not becuase he thought it was the right thing to do but because his handlers felt that there was nuthin' better than as "hot war" to keep his part ion power so it could pillage and rape the US treasury and American workers... This has long been the goal of the Republican Party and Bush doesn't get the glory of winning the battle... Certainlu his daddy and Reagan got the ball well down field and with the help of folks who, God bless 'um, think that gay marriage, abortion and flag burning are the three most important issues on the planet, have used these hot wars and hot button social issues to tay in power whilst fleecing the middle class and chipping away at the New Deal...

Yeah, had I'd been running the business---which it is-- I would have done an infinately better job because, first of all, screw politics when it comes to getting things done right... Yeah sure, it's fun to mess with the Bushites (not a slam...) here in Mudville but I have a history of working with folks who might fall into that category... I don't see "Bushite" in y real world... I have always beena community activist and you dance with the folks who come to the dance...

Hey, I'm not a GUEST... I'm transparent and my work over the last coup,e of decades in Leesburg, Va. ain't no secret and it's forced my to work with Bushites and not make nuthin' of it...

But, yeah, I wouldn't have made 9/11 a politcal thing to us for power to steal back promises made by empolyers or promises made by the New Deal...

I would have rolled up my sleeve and doen the heavy lifting... That would have meant funding the home stuff that needed to be funded and maybe not gotten re-elected but going out knowin' that I had done the right thing...

Bush didn't do that... He stole from our domestic programs, left our country more vulnerable than before 9/11 and Katrine is "Exhibit A"...

No Monday morin' quarterback, here, GUEST... I have a transparent history of walkin' the walk...

Just heard today from someone that the current mayor of Leesburg, Kristine Umstead said some very flattering things in a Town Council sessionc about my service to the Leesburg community while I was there...

Bush blew it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

Looks like Katrinagate is a flop just like Medigate.


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