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BS: KatrinaGate
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Subject: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM Well, well, well... "Yer doin' a good job, Brownie" Well, in this case he might have or might not have but one thing fir sure is that Bush and Homeland Security Director, Micheal Chertoff weren't up to the task... Ahhhh, how many Bush apologists have ever heard of the "National Response Plan"??? (Hmmmmmm, Bobert, none holdin' up their hands...) Well, it was unvieled last January by the DoHS and it "was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-September 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter). "It very clearly says that in a catastrope, where you either anticipate or it has allready happened that locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take (a) proactive steps to protect the lives of citizens." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter) "Ultimately, this plan designates the Secretary of Homeland Defense as the person who is supposed to be the principal federasl official in charge when disater strikes" (Ibid) So here's the way it was upposed to work, folks... Top down and not vice versa... Brownie wasn't the one callin' the shots here... So we fast forward to the Congressional hearing with Michael Brown... Rep. Christopher Shays: "Now, with the non-evacuation, when you knew that niether the governor or mayor were going to do their job, did you call- and I would like to bring the President in. When did you contact ther President to say we have a catastrophe happening with an incompetent mayor and incompetent governor not responding to this. When did you contact the President to let him know this extraordinary crisis that would impact our country?" Michael Brown: "I talked to the White House on both Saturday and Sunday. And throughout the disaster." Sheys: "So the first conversation was Saturday?" Brown: "I think the first conversation was Saturday, yes. It may have been Friday, but I have to go back and check my records." Shays: "Why not sooner? I mean, you had indications that this was- I mean, we knew on Friday that it was going to hit New Orleans, and we knew by Friday that it was going to be basiclly as category four ot five. You had a pretty good sense that the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had- even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?" Brown: "Yes, that's the plan, correct." Shays: "Yeah, okay. Amd they didn't implement it. So did you ask for, quote unquote, a "higher authority" to help you out so you could help save lives?" Brown: "I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?" Shays: "Did you ask for a higher authroity to help you out? You're the head of FEMA, but the governor and mayor aren't paying attention to you. I want to know who you asked for help." Brown: "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House." Shays: "To who?" Brown; "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House." Shays: "The White House is a big place. So give us specifics. I'm not asking about conversations yet, I want to know who you contacted." Brown: I exchanged emails and phones calls with Joe Hagin, Andy Card and the President." BINGO, folks!!!! So here is my question. Given that a FEMA reaction is top-down triggered then if Bush knew of what was going down, as Brown has said he did, then shouldn't the orders dome from the top, seein' as Bush's own National Response Plan outlined??? Hey, Brownie did his job... Bush didn't, since he knew that a category for or five hurricane was about to hit New Orleans, had been told by Brownie that the local authorities were not up to handling the situation... Bush should have told Certoff to get the ball rolling... Hey, it wasn't like some other administyartion had writtne the National Response Plan... It was the Bush administarion and when it was time for it to be implimented, drunk frat boy was yet again... AWOL... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:48 PM Well, he did have other things on his plate at the time, Bobert -- be reasonable -- there was all that torturing going on, billions of dollars to re-direct into the hands of the A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM And vacation. Don't forget his vacation. A man is entitled to a vacation now and then, right? And Cheney needed a vacation too and so did Ms. Rice. Surely you can't fault them for that? After all, they were on the job (kind of) within 10 days or so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM Well, good points there, Amos.... And I'm sure that when the Bush apologists have caught their breat here they may indeed point out those duties.... Funny thing, this is purdy much the same case I laid out to GUEST, A and got back zip, nada, nuthin'.... Yeah I challenged him to just pick one danged thing he thought Bush did an okay job on... So he just picked this one... So I threw it to hiom and he went like... "Bobert's a nut" 'er somethin'like that... Problem with the Bush apologists is that ain't some blog to click on the offer up their defense, they are, fir the most part, too danged lazy to go out and do any research... So they just call you a "f*ck" and go one with their ignorant selves.... Hope GUEST A will do a little homework here and get on in this discussion but I don't expect it... And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs... What you read and see is waht you get... I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way... So, fir you bloggers, you might not have had this case laid out this way but this is the way I've found it and it don't llok good on the Bush adminisratiion.... I understand that Bush is gonna start puttiin' refuggee out on the street in two weeks... No more rent assistance... Hey, they've got a big tax cut fir the rich and a war in Iraq to pay for... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:38 PM 4,000 people are still declared missing in New Orleans. This story is just heartbreaking. See this excerpt from a dailykos diary by clammyc Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:55:19 AM PDT "How quickly two months go by. Yet, that is how long it has been since Katrina hit, and it has been 6 weeks since the search for bodies in the 9th Ward was halted. And lest we think otherwise, it was known at the time that there were still bodies that were not recovered. And now we hear that since families are just starting to come back to the Ninth Ward to see the destruction, collect what they can of their belongings, or even check on the houses of families or loved ones, gruesome discoveries are being made... and per Anderson Cooper yesterday... 'Well, the death toll keeps rising. You know, it's hard to imagine anything worse than coming back to your home in New Orleans and finding it completely destroyed. But, tonight, as you're about to hear, there is something worse, much worse. Dozens of families have returned to what is left of their homes and found, lying amidst the mold and the wreckage, a body, forgotten, abandoned. Maybe it's their mother or their grandmother, sometimes even their missing child. The state called off searching house to house in New Orleans well over a month ago. They said they completed the job. Clearly, they have not. In tonight's "Keeping Them Honest," our daily segment devoted to New Orleans and the still devastated Gulf Coast, we try to find out who is to blame...'" -snip- Read the entire diary and comments at Bodies of loved ones found in NOLA One things for sure-this is not the America we were raised to believe in. The American dream may never has been real for many but this nightmare is absolutely outrageous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM BTW, my brother Bobert, You said "And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs...I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way..." And right after that comment, I quoted an excerpt from a diary from the one of the blogs {if not THE blog} that receives the most "hits" {visitors}every day. Yet I put my own comments in the mix too.. So IMO quoting from blogs should be something that is acceptable here. I hope you're down with that. If not-we're still cool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:54 PM Good point, MiziAzizi... More folks missin' from Katrina than were kil;led on 9/1!!!! Where's the millions an' millions of dollars fir each family that lost a loved one??? No, instead no milllions the Bush administration is gettin' ready to pull the plug in the rent subsidies to house the refugees, which, BTW, are predominently black... Meanwhile, back in New Yorkl 'er C.D. families recieve millions of bucks for their lost loved ones/wage earners... (So what is you tryin' to say here, bobert???) Well, I*z gonna put it as blunt as it should be put: What has happened in New Orleans during and after Katrina was as racist tging as I've seen since Selma... Yeah, New Orleans is Bush's Selma... Or Littlerock.... This is disgusting... When you drive around Washington, D.C. area there are more million dollar mansions than a man could count... Thwey are evrywhere and they are owned by lobbiests who get the big bucks to run our government because our congressmen are too busy rai9sing dough to get re-elected... Meanwhile, Bush was asleep at the wheel during Katrina... Brownie tried to wake hi up but may the boy had one too many a pretzel that night... (Like how do you spell, AWOL, BObert???) Yeah, conscious or not, racism is over-rode the Bush administrations actions during Katrina and they still are... Shamefull... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM Miz, Hey, I ain't got no problem with blogs, per sey... The problem I have is when the Bush apologists here don't actually do any thinkin' 'er researchin' on their own but have some blog that has been well funded by some rich fat cat who wants to put a mil;lion bucks into a PR staff to create a blog that the Bush apoligist only click on like a "Get Outta Jail Free" click... Lotta that goin' 'round and it sucks... Hey, I dopn't have a cluue what the perdentage of blogs out there are but if I* had to guess there's probably 10 right wionged to every progressive... That's what I mean... Lotta time's we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeeves and do then research. like I have done here... But you know I loves ya and respects ya and you ain't gonna go do no long cut 'n run (paste) rebuttal... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM I've thought about posting a thread called something like 'Katrina and Rita- Current Conditions' because I would like more information on what the situation is RIGHT NOW. Human beings tend to have short term responses and the need for help on the Gulf Coast is going to be going on for a very long time. We have to stay aware. A Juneau friend of mine just got back from doing volunteer work down there for two weeks plus and he says that one can almost not describe it. He said it's like a hundred miles of mashed houses and not much of anything else. What are the people to go back to? A man from Mississippi a week or so ago told me that those thousands of house trailers they brought down there came with no house keys... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM I am not in the destruction zone but close. Mississippi is overrun with carbetbaggers and scalawags once again. The scalawags are the local con artists who set about collecting multiple checks while real victims did without until the relief agencies stopped offering them. The carpetbaggers are out-of-state corporations selling $30,000 trailers to FEMA for $80,000 and setting them up at a snails pace. Bechtel (headquartered in San Diego) has a huge sweetheart contract to send in trailers for people to live in. I see them come down the interstate every day, one at a time, from as far as oregon, driven by some guy in a very big shiny new pickup. They are dropped off in staging areas where they stay for weeks. Supposedly every day a few dozen more get sent to a site. Only after some other out-of-state folks have researched whether the home site is good enough and level enough. Some time later after repeated applications from people living in tents, the trailer may be delivered. Often it will sit there for weeks while arrangements are made for inspectors and electricians and plumbers to hook it up properly. FEMA will not allow people to just grab the units and set them up the best they can. They have to be set up like yer uncle luke's planned retirement community with the gravel beds and geraniums. They may require grading, etc. And yes, often it is finally set up and cleared for occupancy but the keys are missing. Meanwhile, less than 1% of the reconstruction work has gone to Mississippi companies, many of whom are struggling to survive. Our our trailer sales companies are selling to individuals but have lots full of trailers and mobile homes standing empty while people wait for FEMA to finally get its electricians around to hooking everybody up to their unit from Oregon. FEMA promised to rebid the big sweetheart contracts a month ago but hasn't lifted a finger. It also has rejected efforts by local house & apt landlords to help people get settled in outlying areas in real homes. It hurts to see all the empty trailers and homes knowing what people are going through. On the coast, meetings have been held to try to do sweeping urban planning before anything substantial gets rebuilt, and zoning & building codes (such as "you have to raise your building 20' higher than x") are not done yet. New FEMA flood maps have been done and all rebuilding and mortgageing and insuring will have to work around them. So much rebuilding is just gonna be "on hold" for a long time. Many stores and restaurants on the margins have opened up, but find few can live and work in the area for $6 an hour with nowhere to stay. Debris clearing is done by some highly paid outsiders with the grunt work being contracted out to crews of illegal aliens who can hack $6 an hour while living in a tent. Housing is in desperately short supply near ground zero, and 'investors' are snapping up both livable homes and destroyed coastal property. Locals are afraid as the months and years wear on more folks will have to sell out to big REITS who will build shiny new resort 'towns'. In short, it ain't going real well. This area had few financial resources before KT and it will wind up even poorer than before. In a decade it will have a nicely rebuilt coast area, but the proceeds will have been funneled to California (home of Bechtel) or Florida or Connecticut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM So, looks like the Bush administration still don't get it???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM Thank you very much, Guest. What do the local newspapers say about the situation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM Looks like your great KatrinaGate expose is just a thread where everybody id just preaching to the choir Bobert. Enjoy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM We are asking the choir for information, Teribus. If you don't understand that, you're in the wrong pew. Prolly even the wrong church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM I have been told by survivors of Isabel that one of the key problems has always been the way FEMA is structured. It is all about being on standby until local officials formally ask for help; they are officially 'second responders'. This does not work when all phones are out and towns have been destroyed and mayors have had to evacuate and the 'first responders' are busy trying to pull people off roofs. So to some extent the legal structure of FEMA was and is part of the problem. The other part is the people in charge were people like Brown. Thank God for the Coast Guard which did not have to ask permission to operate in its own waters and shores and just went in and rescued people. And Thank God for private citizens and churches who just got their act together, found some fuel, and went to help. The only positive thing in this mess is the great help people have given their fellow man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM Well, it's real nice to see that the the Bush-heads, T-Head included, have no rebuttal to the Bush administration, includinmg Bush himself, failings in protecting the American people... So much fir "My job is to protect the American people" crap that Bush loves to pump out his chest and proclaim... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 18 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM Good post GUEST 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM, I agree entirely |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM No, GUEST and T-Wrong, you are both wrong... Reread the original post on this thread... Things have changed since the advent of the Department of Homeland Security... Yeah, you would have been corrct 5 years ago but you are both wrong now... You all gotta keep up... You might wanta Google "National Response Plan", GUEST, 09:03 and after you get it maybe T-Guessin' will get it as well but maybe not??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM Yer doin a good job on yer Katrins Blog Bobert. Brownie couldn't have done any better. He couldn't figger out how many nuclear bombs can be made out of 1.77 tons of enriched youranium either so you two are on a par with each other. Brownie is a miserable, whiney asshole too. Bush made a big mistake by making him head of FEMA. Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM "How did FEMA score before DHS gate?" Real question here is how did four dozen search and rescue folks from Vancouver, Canada, get to just outside New Orleans and start doing their stuff before the head of FEMA knew anything was wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters. In 2001, President George W. Bush appointed Joe M. Allbaugh as the director of FEMA. Within months, the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11th focused the agency on issues of national preparedness and homeland security, and tested the agency in unprecedented ways. The agency coordinated its activities with the newly formed Office of Homeland Security, and FEMA's Office of National Preparedness was given responsibility for helping to ensure that the nation's first responders were trained and equipped to deal with weapons of mass destruction. Billions of dollars of new funding were directed to FEMA to help communities face the threat of terrorism. Just a few years past its 20th anniversary, FEMA was actively directing its "all-hazards" approach to disasters toward homeland security issues. The above is taken from the 'History' section of the Official FEMA web site. FEMA's origins go back as far as 1803. Subsequent to becoming part of the Department of Homeland Security it would appear that funding, resources and training were allocated to expand the role and capabilities of FEMA with regard to "security issues" As both Katrina and Rita were natural disasters, FEMA's procedures and mode of operation for such circumstances would apply, there was no terrorist threat, there were no 'security isues' so revamped procedures to address those circumstances would not automatically come into play. What would, was the Federal support role to State Authorities, and as GUEST pointed out, if state had not requested assistance before Katrina struck, they proved extremely difficult to contact after. The rescue folks from Vancouver, where not hindered in this same way. Everyone thought that plans were in place, they were. Everyone thought that those plans were adequate, that proved to be incorrect, as the plan relied on there being some organisation/civil administration in place and functioning to liaise and co-ordinate with. In the case of Katrina there wasn't. Run on just a couple of weeks and Rita arrives, by this stage plans have been altered, the response was different, the storm did not impact a major centre of population and its affects were lessened. Learning by experience is what mankind has always had to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM Keep studyin', T-Guesser.... Yer one the right etreet, just the wrong house... (Major hint: Chain of Command..." Ahhh, Old Guy....Yer not even on the right street... Okay, may the "right" street but not the correct street... Yeah, it was easy and convient fir Bush to sacrifice Brownie... I'm not sayin' the guy was Menza material here but I am sayin' that it wasn't his call to make... Hwe did what he was supposed to in allerting the White Hose and the President two full days before the storm hit and telling them it would land as a Category 4 or 5 storm... The real question here is what did Bush do? And the second question here is what did Michael Chertoff do??? Or on both cases, what they didn't do... (Major hint: "incident of national significance"...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 19 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM I promised myself I would not respond to the feeble, unrealistic attempts to blame the Feds for the mess in New Orleans. There was never a question concerning the Feds response. They were caught up in the lack of effort by the "first responders", local and LA state government, and had to organize a method from a thousand miles away on how to take care of a situation that they are normally not responsible for. Two quotes from the opening post by Rep. Christopher Shays; 1. "when did you contact the President to say we have a catastophe happening with an incompetent Mayor and an incompetent Governor not responding....?" 2. ".......the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had - even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?" Bingo, my Ass!!!!!!! Even a member of the Congressional hearing acknowledged the fact that the Mayor and the Governor were incompetent boobs. I am not going to ask for further facts because there are none. Were you aware that the President had to ask for the Governor to be removed from press conferences several times in the first couple days following the storms' passing? Here in the safe confines of my midwest estate, I had no reason to hear from the Governor while people were drowning in their homes |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: DougR Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM I got a idea! Let's promote Bobert to head FEMA. I think he would do a bang-up job. After all, he has all the answers. And I think he should be allowed to pick his own crew of helpers here at the Mudcat. I'll bet they would whip that New Orleans mess in shape within a week. Next stop: Bobert for President if he does that! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Naemanson Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM I am NOT a Bush apologist. He is and will always be one of the worst presidents this country has ever had. He is the perfect reason why there should be a competency test for each presidential candidate. But there are extenuating circumstances. Having worked for the US government for nearly 30 years I have to point out that they are so blocked by bureaucratic bull that nothing is simple or easy. It really does take at least two and a half months to contract for construction type services if you follow the bidding regulations. That is no excuse for giving the contracts to your buddies but it does beg the question of how one can respond to emergencies. So what happened with Katrina? Well, Brown didn't get involved right away because his schedule wasn't set up for a huge emergency even though they saw it coming. They probably all convinced themselves that the local officials could handle it. Nobody really talked to the locals. Then when it appeared that things were going south they had to get on the schedule with the White House. Then they had to figure out what to do. Yes, there is a plan but it requires someone in the know to remember they have that plan. Generally the person in the know, in a Government organization, is not one of the yes-men near the top of that organization. So nobody thought to tell Brown that he could defer. In the meantime, Bush was so busy with his little plans and screwups he didn't have time to worry about what was happening until someone (speaking accurately) played the race card. After all, 9/11 was a strike at the economic center of the US. The people who died there were business people (mostly). But New Orleans was just a bunch of poor blacks. He doesn't need to concern himself with them, they don't contribute to his campaign funding. I'm getting away from my point. The bureaucracy that bogs down our Government is far reaching and insidious. It is damn near impossible to do anything quickly. Several years ago Gore tried to clean up the procurement system to make it easier to buy things and he did a good job. Under his leadership Government procurement began to use credit cards to make very small purchases (under $2,500). The use of sole source contracting was extended to contracts under $25,000. That sped up the system a little. But the large purchase process is still bogged down in lengthy approvals and long rationales for why we should not go with a competitive process. I would love to see the procurement records for the contracts that went to Halliburton in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM No, Dougie, don't make me the head of FEMA unless yer willin' to roll the clock back where as head of FEMA I could act without having been so-ordered by the Secretary of GHomaland Security who is aewaitin' his marching orders from the president... And GUEST A, you need to Google up National Response Plan... All the crap you are saying is just that: crap... It addresses situations where governors or mayors or police department 'or fire departments either can't responsd, or ****DON'T****!!! Waht don't you get about that???: How many time do I have to point that out to you before it sinks into yer bone-head??? Hey, I am not defendin' anu mayors, or governors here... There was a plan in place for a Katrina that had nothing to do with the the mayor of governors./.. Yeah you can't get beyond yer finger pointing at those folks to see that the plan dealt exactly with such a scenerio such as what unfolded in the aftermath of Katerina... The plan starts with the President instructing the Secretary of HS who then issues orderd to FEMA... This i8s the way the Bush asdminisration itself reorganized DHS and FEMA... Brown did his job. Bush and Chertoff didn't... Don't ven bother coming back and blame the governor... Or the mayor unless you have familiarized yourself with the way the oragnization chart was redrawn by the Bush folks... See, I told you on another thread that you wouldn't do the researh because you either are lazy or you just find it entertainin' to say ignorant stuff but there you are doing exactly what I thought you would do which is very little in defending your position... Whatever yer position is??? Like, what is yer position??? Oh yeah, Brownie screwed up... Hmmmmm? What he do wrong??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM This here miserable thread has fell off the list so I thought I would revive it so Bobert could make an even bigger ass of hisself (if that is possible) All this home work he was going to do turns out to be the same months old crap rehashed. We need something fresh. Does anybody here live in or near NO and can attest to the corrupt government? Another question not necessarily fresh. Does anybody remember seing the Gov Blanko being interviewed wherein she was asked just when she asked GWB to take over the National Gard and she said she did not even know what day it was? Now the question Bobert can't answer: "Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate?" First of all GWB did not want the new DHS department. The Dems made a stink and GWB gave in. Then the dems deamded that FEMSA be incorporated into DHS. Bush did not want to but he finally gave in to the Dems. Were there any complaints about FEMS before it was put under FEMA? I havent heard any. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:29 PM So, what is yer point, Old Guy???? Yeah, Bush didn't want a DHS but he got one... And he appointed one of his buds to be the 1st Secretary... And appointed another to be the 2nd... Hey, Old Guy, I can't fir the life of me figure out why any Bush apologist would revive this thread??? Bottom line, Bush had to accept a DPH but that's what CEO's do. Boards of Directotrs occasionally throw in something that needs for the CEO to be flexible and creative... Have you ever heard of the "National Repsonse Plan", Old Guy??? I doubt you have... Well, you might wanta research it before comin' in here with yer usual stink bombs... It's part of yer guy's overall policy... Not mine... Yeah, it makes references to disasters like Katrina... Oh, BTWm it yer guy who has run around the country saying dumbass stuff like "Hey, it's my job to protect Americans." So lets do a little review here, Old Guy... First, Bush accepts the DHS Second, he accepts the National Response Plan Third, when the time comes for it to be implimented, he's AWOL... What exactly have I missed here, pal??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM Bobert, I can't decide if you are a rabble rouser, a drama queen or just plain naive. I migh go with the drama queen title.. The question is have you ever looked at the National Response plan? In every aspect of it, the stipulation is that the first responders, read local and state government here, are responsible for the for the first evacuation and rescue attempts. Don't you think it might be a little late for someone to respond from a 1000 miles away. If you find this to not be to your liking, then please quote us the section and paragraph from the National Response plan that dictates otherwise. It could be there but my copy doesn't reflect it. Gently putting the ball back in your court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:09 PM You have missed everything anybody else did or didn't do that contributed to the disaster except for Bush. You like others do not have the ability to take evertything into consideration when assigning blame. The common term is scapegoating. You are pissed off and you look for one person that is the root of the evil. Some women do it to their husbands. Some kids do it to their parents. In all it makes you sound like an anarchist. Where is your broad thinking? You are narrowminded and this gives you a bad attitude which you express here. Wake up. It's a mean old world and you are not going to make it go your way. Try being upbeat. Enjoy living in the best nation on earth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM If you look under the heading "State, Local and Tribal Governments" which is in the Table of Contents iii, Roles and Responsibilities, you will not that when State or Local Governments are overwhelmed, they may request Federal assistance. The Governor of Louisiana did that. The help was over five days coming, because FEMA didn't know what the hell was going on, and Bush was playing guitar in California. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM Thank you, Bruce, fir the assist... I have over a hundred pages run thru my printer with all that stuff but it's nice not having to go thru each page again... This is the point I've made over abnd over but these knothead Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that...; Sure, life is good... I have provided GUEST A a source to find out just how good my life is but yet, when I point out the4 dfriggin' truth to either GUEST A or Old Guy, all I get is "Life is good and yer wro9ng, Bobert" crap throwed back at me... Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers... They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true???? Freud would have a field day with these two... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:33 PM The key peice of information is WHEN did Blanco ask Bush to take it over. Bush asked her at least once if she wanted the Feds to take over. She said at least once that she needed 24 hours to decide. Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions? My post of 10:09 is directed at Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM Hey, Old Guy, I did the research, which is more than I can say for you. Read the following and weep. Then go read for general information and knowledge. I seem to know more about your country than you do.http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM "Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions?" Gee, I wish I'd said that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM Like how many pages have you run thru yer printer on Katrina research, Old Guy? I've got a file that's a half inch thick and countin'.... Well over a 100 pages of stuff, all related to Katrina... Based on the National Response Plan, Blanco was a non-entity... Or should have been... Brown reported directly to the president on Saturday that the governor and mayor were in over their heads.... (See Brown's congressional testimony) ... that ************should**************** have triggered a top-down response. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM Sorry, Bruce, I missed yer Part B.... Yeah, I agree 100%... I came into this thread havin' read about everything I could find irregardless of the slant... Then you get these two knotheads who are either just making sh*t up or are gettin' sh*t that is made up for them from some Bushite blog and it's, quite frankly, purdy danged pathetic... Like no critcal thought what so ever... None... Hey, the easy way would fir me to defend the locals but, hey, they were in over their heads and that is exactly what the National Response Plan is supposed to be all about.... Don't matter if Bush likes the DHS or not... He is the CEO and this was part of his job description and he blew it!!!! Brownie did his job... Bush blew the heck outta his... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM Bobert, do you remember, in your post, where Rep. Shays referred to the Mayor and the Governor as incomptents? Still waiting for an answer as to where in the NPR does it say that state responders are local and state people. The Governor is out of the picture?????????? quoting you. This is not worth my time. You act like a bully hoping that people, which I have noticed some do, will accept your diatribe. a 100 pages of what? Really impressive! Not!....I don't care for this method of discussion, am used to it on a personal basis. So, will depart for a while, not giving up but just utilizing my time better. This type of corresponding would be fine for houebound people but good serious discussions are better done and more fun when face to face. Plus, I see your approach is one of putdown which is the format of a bully and one who doesn't have a clear grasp of the situation. This format is not my cup of tea - it would appear to be a type for those who are introverted or can not handle face to face reality. Later............. By the way, I have a copy of the National Response plan and I did not have to go through 100 pages to ascertain responsibility factor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:07 AM By the way Peace, did you really read all the info in that link you posted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM Deal with the facts. I owe you no answer other than the one I gave. Nothing personal, but I do not like you. I find you to be a self-satisfied ego lookin' for a place to happen. I don't care for your politics, your attitude or your presumptions. Whether or not I read all the info does not detract from what I drew attention to. Love it or shove it fellow. You do not deal with facts when they disagree with your view of things. Such is your right. It is my right not to want to deal with you. Address the issue in future. Do not address me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM Thank you Peace. What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is that there are times when first responders CAN'T GET A PHONE LINE OUT. And yes, I think FEMA should have had a plan for such an eventuality, not Tickfaw County, Louisiana. Nobody's local Plan said "whenever all land lines and satellite towers are out for a radius of 200 miles, then we'll go to the closet and get 50 satellite phones out and drive them across timber-strewn roads, so each litttle burgs with destruction can call Washington". Because no, one call from the governor doesn't do it. Then FEMA still hangs fire and says, well, if you tell us in detail exactly what you need, and exactly where, we'll see what we can do. Mississippi at least had a MEMA that had half a clue and directed aid as best it could, but the system is still screwy. We have an national emergency response agency that we pay for. When a CAT 5 is headed for our shores, that agency needs to know what to do and mobilize massive help regardless of how corrupt the local governments are. IF IT CAN'T, then it should get out of the federal budget and leave us to our own local devices. Spontaneous response from local heroes and merciful people and organizations went a LONG way to handling this crisis. We need to stop letting Homeland Security suck up these dollars to misdirect help. Passed through Gulfport this week, so much damage, yet the Corps and jillions of volunteers and workers have cleared the streets of a mountain range of debris. Plenty of misery but plenty of contractor crews working their butts off rehanging walls and doing roofs. Stretches where every roof that is not gone is blue. Guys camping out in car lots, truck stops, biker bar yards. National Guard guarding access to every block of the worst zones with miles of looped razor wire to keep looters from roaming around. Lots of people trying to reclaim their busted frame houses, doing what they can. It looks more like a miner's camp than a war zone now. Lots of work in the air, lots of work ahead. Hope and pray. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM Ditto to what Peace said, GUEST A... You accuse others of exactly what you do when you ahve been boxed into a corner by yer own danged ignorance of issues... Hey, I gave a you a choice of issues where you thought Bush was doing a good job. It came down to Katrina... Then I give you my stuff and you sandbag for a couple weeks and then now you say that you don't want to discuss stuff no more because I am bullying you??? What a joke... Yeah, GUEST, thanks fir the description... I've also heard from P-Gator who has been back to his house in N. O. and the stories are very similar... I heard someone say, maybe on PBS, that there's no way to adequately describe what it's lie to be in N.O.'s... I'm sure that is true... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM Peace, you are accusing others of being like yourself. "Nothing personal, but I don't like you". Well, that is a strange way of putting it. I don't believe I like you either and that would have to be considered personal. Guest, the phone lines were fine the 3 days BEFORE the storm hit which was the time the evacuation should have be enforced. I give the Governor of LA props for one thing she did after realizing she was in over her head and didn't have a clue, and that was to bring a former FEMA head to run things in the state. GWBs' biggest error was not to have declared martial law a couple days before Katrina hit after the Governor demostrated she was so wish-washy. "Well, give me 24 hours to think about it" A quote from her. Bobert, was this P-Gator fellow in NO for the 5 days after Katrina hit? ANd, not remember where your info came from "I think it was PBS", isn't good enough. We must be sure of our sources. However, if they said what you alluded to, they are correct. And I am not sand bagging on the 'stuff' you brought forth - it just isn't good enough. I am here to say that I am sure the city of NO can not be brought back to a pre-Katrina status. I am also here to say that the true facts of what happened prior and after Katrina will not be known for a long, long time. Will we all be able to admit our hits and misses on the story when the facts do come out? Should be interesting, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM Personal or not, A, I think you're an ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:48 PM "Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again." Well, at last we understand each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM I think ur an ass peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM Like who really cares, GUEST A, where I heard it??? I spend a lot of time in my truck switching stations... I really doesn't matter one danged bit where I heard it... Tell ya what, if you want a source wait a couple days and P-Gator will have his pudder up and he'll tell ya' the same thing... He sat right here in my house and used the words surreal... But really, I have no idea why this statement would ruin yer whole Thanksgiving??? You are a hypersensitive person... Next thing you'll be on me fir my spellin' and typin'... Does this make you fell all warm and fuzzy inside??? Pick yer battles, pal... It's not chizzleed in stone that every thing anyone says here needs to be attacked... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM "I think ur an ass peace." You would, chickenshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,petr Date: 23 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM actually frontline did an excellent analysis of Katrina and the various failures.. frontline the storm interesting points: Fema became a bit of a backwater in the 80's and presidents tended to park their political buddies with no experience in Fema. (with the Exception of James Lee Witt - a Clinton appointee, incidentally praised by George W. in the pres. debates) Witt was the only appointee with actual emergency planning background, and was able to Fema around and make it much more effective and responsive, with a focus on prevention.) interesting also is the interview with TOM RIDGE, when asked why there still no interoperability (in communications). his response is that its being worked on but the Federal govt. is not going to be pushed into picking a vendor and deciding on a system.. total baloney.. the fed govt. sets standards on airports, bridges, roads, harbours etc. they provide the funding not only should they set standards, they should demand accountability.. some states got money from DHS and spent it on bulletproof vests for dogs etc because the money was there. and TERIBus who in another thread says we should plan for the worst (in assuming Saddams wmds) .. how about planning for the worst hurricane (and anyone living in New Orleans, knew that it was quite possible the levees could fail, as they did in 1927).. funny that Brown as well as all the other emergency planners rehearsed with a hurrican PAM in 2004 (a simulation which predicted almost exactly what Katrina did) did they learn anything.. you have to wonder about Browns comments on 'being like a fashion God' for his interviews, and email response to one of his workers when she said we need help people are dying here! ok let me know if there anything I should do or Tweak. Brown.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:07 PM Exact point I have been trying to make, ptr... This adnistartion talks the talk but don't walk the walk... Yeah, Junior loves to pimp out his chest and say "My job is protecting the American people." Well, he didn't. It doesn't matter a rat's ass if it were a terrorist attack or a hurricane!!! He came up short!!! Real short.... Irregardless of Michael Brown's qualifications, it wasn't Browns call to make, it was Bush's and Chertoff's... Brown called Bush on Saturday, two days before the storm hit, and told Bush that it was gonna be either a Cat 4 or a Cat 5 and that either way it was gonna be bad, real bad... What did Bush do??? Well, I guess by now we all know what Bush did... Not a danged thing!!! Hey, he was on vacation gol dang it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:34 PM Bobert, all I want to know right now was this P- Gator guy in NO the 3 or 5 days after Katrina. If he was, then he may have a story to tell. And my Thanksgiving will be fine although I can't understand how you came up with that idea. Where did you get the idea that the first responders were the Feds in Washington? What did Bush do? He made the mistake of honering the LA governors request to allow her 24 hours to make a decision. Her idea! You can't possibly find fault with that as you seem to hate the Feds and are a States rights sort of guy. I asked you earlier if P-Gator was in NO the 3 days after Katrina. Was he????????????????? This would make a big difference in his account of the situation with regard to first hand information. I don't want to prove anyone wrong, just looking for a few facts. I am not hpersensensitive nor do I think everything needs to be attacked. I simply want an honest answer(s) to a couple inquiries. Are you up to that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:00 PM What difference does it make, A??? You are obsessing on some pointless point... Fir what, I don't have a clue... Just tell us what point younare trying to make here, pal... You sound like some prize-fighter whio has both eyes bloodied and is just flailin' way a air... Like, do you have a real point to make here that involves this discussion or what?? No disrespect meant, it just seems that you ahve become very obsessedwith details and missing the big piccure... You can do better... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:27 PM May as well piss into the wind, Bobert. No point trying to teach a cat to sing. It's a waste of your time and it irritates the cat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:35 PM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:16 PM And lets do a little review here, GUEST A... Since 9/11 Bush has pumped out his chest and sid over and over and over that it is his jobn to protect the American people. Right so far??? Inspite of the calls from Michael Brown warning of the impending disaster, what did Bush actaully do??? Ahhhh, well, I'll tell ya what he did... He went on vacationing, whci, BTW, he doing again... The he went weat to do a little speech makin and chest pumpin' out... The rest is history... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:06 AM Peace: I read that weeks ago. It says nothing except the Washington Post is fucked up in their reporting. What I am asking is when did Blanko ask Bush to take over the National Guard from the state? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM When you find out, please post it here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:38 AM "As Gen. Russel Honoré, commander of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Joint Task Force Katrina, stated in a September 1 briefing, the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi had requested additional assistance from the federal government "as the hurricane was approaching," beginning with a request on August 26 that DoD command centers be set up in their states. And by August 28, Mississippi and Louisiana were collaborating with the National Guard Bureau to have additional security forces sent in." http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080001 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Nov 05 - 07:45 PM Yeah, Bruce, seems like the Bushites 'round here would rather that Katrin-Gate qwould just slip off in the night... Ya' see, if they have to give in just one time then they are afraid they will just go off into the abyiss... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 26 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM Peace: You are the expert you tell us. The state government must ask in writing for the Feds to take command of the national guard. When was it done? Does Bobert the Katrina expert know? I saw a National Geographic Channel special on Katrina. There was a meeting on the ground in New Orleans in Air Force one with Bush, Nagin and Blanko where this request was discussed. At that time Blanko still had not made the request. When did it happen? What was said? If nobody here knows, they are not knowledgeable on the matter and lack credibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM You, Old Guy, obviously haven'r been readin' this entire thread... Maybe you need to go back and reread it fir content... You can't just jump into the fray if youn aren't even aware of the argu7ments that have allready been made... Yer posts above shows that either yoyu haven't done that or you don't have a clue what has been written... I mean no offense here but there are some premises that I laid down that superceed yer arguments... Maybe better go back and see exactly what you are arguing against... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:10 PM "Peace: You are the expert you tell us." Nothing seems to satisfy you, SD in S. Hell, it's YOUR country; find out about it will ya? Ya got something to say, say it. Or, get off the pot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 27 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM Seems like the Bushites don't have much use fir this thread, Bruce... Guess that says more 'bout it than anything else... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:09 AM No Bobert, the time has arrived to ignore bias and narrowminded thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM Well, well, well... Looks very much as, other than generalizations and a lotta bull from the Bush apologists none seem to be up to the task of offering anything that so much as sniffs as a rebuttal to my charges... Guess the Bush PR team is too busy fightin' on the many fronts that I predicted beforwe the '04 election that they would end up doing... And now seems that New Orleans and the south coast is slippin', slippin', slippin' into the aybiss as Americans are either concerned more about Iraq and Snitchgate or shopping that they just don't have enuff time left to worry much about New Orleans??? Wonder how they would be reactin' had New Orleans been hit by a dirty bomb??? Hmmmmmmm??? Meanwhile Bush goes about pumping out his chest saying stuff like "My job is to protect the American people'??? Go figgure??? Anyone feel all that protected by Bush??? Not me... I'd take my cousin Buddy, a few of his friends from Jersey and maybe Keeny Stoudt from high school over everything that Bush has to protect me, thank you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:56 PM Why hasn't the torture thread been refeshed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: robomatic Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:19 PM I think the gummint should hire that new consulting firm that Michael Brown has been putting together to get some advice about what went wrong with th' FEMA at KaTREENa. Wonder if Michael is pulling down a good retirement bonus as he embarks on his big adventure with the private secta. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,petr Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM of course he is- hes still on the payroll.. just out of interest - old guy and teribus ought to go to the frontline website (i linked to earlier) and see what browns emails were like.. almost everytime he was asked to make a decision - he answered the email and never made a decision.. -- and a few days into the disaster Admiral Thad Allen ended up doing all the work while they pushed Brown off into where he could do no harm.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM I'm standin' by my premise that Brownie, while maybe not being the most qualified person to head up FEMA, did his job and that Bush and Chentoff were itehr asleep, 'or drunk, at the wheeel... Blamin; Brown fir Bush's failures is like playin' right into the Bush PR machines scheme ot protecting him... Hey, he is the one who akes the call, sends it down to DHS and DHS orders FEMA to act... Folks around here still ain't got this chain-of-command thing in their heads... Ain't 'bout Brownie... Very much about drunk AWOL frat boy and Chentoff... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:14 PM refresh.... Like I said, anyone blamin' MIchael Brown fir Bush's yet another AWOL is like playin' right into the Bush PR machine... Yeah, real convient little sacricial lamb to protect the drunk frat boy yet again... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:36 PM Wello, well, well... Been 3 months since Katrina and looks like Bush is just gonna try to run out the clock on this one, too... Plus, given Bush's lead many insurance companies are sand=baggin' as well... Hey, had terrorist done this then this would be a real sexy rebuild but a hurricane??? Yeah, everyone just out and shop... Sad commentary on just how soft the American people have become.... Many neighbor hoods are today purdy much what they lloked likethe day after the storm but like who cares??? Right??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:11 PM The state government must ask in writing for the Feds to take command of the national guard. When was it done? Where is it written that the state must hand over command of its own national guard before national guard units from other states can be brought in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:12 PM Let me ammend that... Where is it written that the state must hand over command of its own national guard before national guard units from other states can be brought in for non-policing types of support? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:49 PM It's not, CarolC... The Bushites are takin' their usual path of defense in throwing up stuff that really doesn't address the big question of why the Federal Government failed and continues to fail today... Yeah, it one thing to go 'round the country pumpin; out one's chest boasting that "My job is to protect the American people" and another to actually do it... Bush is a LIAR.... He hasn't protected the American people... All he has done is give speeches to carefully screened audiances of loyalists... Heck, if there were only a couple hundred folks left that actually supported this man you'd never know it 'cuase they would all be at every televised rally... Face it, Bush dropped the ball, folks... But that was on the 27th and 28th of August.... The ball I'm more concerned with is the ballha has dropped every day in the three months since Katrina.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:00 PM Havin' fun, T??? Ya' want guess why lotta folks ain't comin' 'round this thread lately??? Well, I'll be more than happy to tell ya... The Bush folks is playin' "sand-bag" on Katrina so they ain't gettin'/lettin' too many folks get a direct shot at 'um... In other words, they are doing the "Rope-a-Dope" and just hoping to ride it out without having to do much of anything... Yeah, they will continue to blame the Louisnane givernor the the mayor of New Orleans when they have to defend themselves but this is yer classic defense of "run-out-the-clock" and try to pass Katrina off to the next guy... Hmmmmm? Seems like everywhere you look at the Bush adminsiration this 'run-out-the-clock" defense is in full deployment??? Like what's that about???? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 05 - 10:16 PM Refresh fir Ebbie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM Refresh - to give Bobert time to find his 'homework' He did say that he had done some - maybe the dog ate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM Homework all done, T-Dodger... I'm just waitin' fir either you or another Bush apologists to come up with anything other than the usaul, "We'll just have to agree to disagree" which has become the comapny fight song when you all are cornered... Like, here we are at 81 posta and o one has offered any rebuttal to my orinal argument... Saying that the local and state authorites weren't jup to the task is not an argument at all... Doesn't matter if they were or weren't... Has nothing to do with my argument that Bush and Chertoff were the one's who blew it... But, just as I predicted among time ago about snith-gate not going away, Katrina-gate won't either... It just hasn't heated up yet but it will and when it does you will surely hear the argument that I have made here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Frank Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM Bush had a reason to ignore New Orleans. It's not the favorite city of the Christian Right-Wing. It's Bush's Sodom and Gomorrah. Besides, it's a new contract for Bechtel and Halliburton. He deliberately let it go down the drain for political reasons. No one wants to talk about that. Besides, Kanye West has a point. Did black people vote for Bush? The Army Corps of Engineers has not yet done its job. Wait 'til those Ponchatrain condos get washed away a second time. FEMA is controlled by Bush ultimately. Anyone who doesn't get that really doesn't know what's going on. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:32 PM Somehow, either they don't get it, Frank, or more than likely, thry now get it... Thus the deafenin' silence from the Bush camp... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:28 PM Some of us don't understand bullshit, Bobert. Frank, you and Mr. West make a great team. Check out his Bio. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Dec 05 - 06:57 PM What part of my argument is bullsh*t, A??? That's all I've asked of you all along yet you are either unwilling or incapable ot debating this issue... Here we are pushin' 90 posts to this thread and not one offers a rebuttal of my original argument... And many of these posts were posted by you, A, which leads me to believe that, other than attacking me with juvilinistic responses, you have nothing really to say to defend Bush's actions regarding Katrina... And guess what? The more you just choose to follow with rope-a-dope tactics the more I see that you are duckin' the real debate here... Yeah, when I say things like this you may think I am attacking you personally but I'm not... All I'm doing is pointing out what must be purdy danged obvious to anyone follwing this thread... You have nothing of substance to say... Fine... Find another thread that you know something about... Yeah, yer claim that I am the bullsh*ter here is a dog that won't hunt... My argument is based on readilly attainable facts... And I provided you with my sources... When yer ready to do some homework and come back and tell me exaxctly what ity is you disagree with in my origanl argument than maybe I'll respond to you again but until then, my friend, I'm cuttin' you loose... Your posts on this thread plainly aren't worth any more of my time... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM Bobert, you are not my friend, never have and never will be. You were kinda' fun to joust with but your attitude of rightousness makes it worthless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Buzz Date: 07 Dec 05 - 12:06 AM Bobert the Katrina expert: When did Bush ask Blanko if she wanted the Feds to take over the National Guard and her answer was "I need 24 hours to make a decision" (according to Nagin) I will give you a hint, it was aboard Airforce One. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:30 AM Bobert is a legend in his own mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM More importantly, Buzzer, is when was Bush alerted that a Cat 4 or Cat5 was going to hit N.O. and that it would devistate the entire region? As fir the shifting command of the Nationa GHuard, that would have been one of the mnay little deatils that FEMA would have been involved with... The National Guard is a red herring and has nothing to do with the fact that Bush, upon learning of the coming disaster, didn't so much as alert his Secretary of HS, who Bush had to have know was his responsibilty in order to get FEMA involved... According to congressional testimony by Michael Brown, some of which is in the initail post of this thread, "Brownie" was on the job and had even broken the chain of command in going to the White House with his concerns as early as the Friday *before* the storm and says that he spoke with Bush on that Saturday about his concerns... Now if I'm a guy who has run all over the country saying "My job is to protect the American people" and I have a Cat 4 heading for a region of my country, I'm gonna cut my vacation a few days and get to doing what I have been boasting I am doing... Now I know that the Bushites arguments are to point their fingers at local authorities but that dog don't hunt either... The Natioanl Response Plan was all about stuff like Katrina and it assumed that the local government were in over their head, in this case, literally... But, thank you, Buzzer, fir at least gettin' in the fray here... Now maybe we can get into some of the real meat and taters of this debate... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: dianavan Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:21 AM Seems easy to me. The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A.) was wasting its money and resources fighting the perceived 'terrorist threat'. The Dems may have asked for FEMA in the first place but it was Bush who was responsible for the inaction (inability) of the organization as it stands. Bush couldn't protect the U.S. population from the 911 attack and Bush couldn't protect the U.S. population from Katrina. A good leader knows how to set priorities. Natural disaster was not high on GWB's list. What is disgusting to the rest of the world is how the present U.S. administration always runs, lies and hides whenever the chips are down. Bush has no integrity whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:41 AM Refresh - looks like the dog didn't only eat Bobert's homework |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Dec 05 - 05:18 PM Natural Disaster or Terrorist Attack the Bush administration showed it was not capable of "protecting the American people" either way, d... What was supposed to be in place wouldn't have differentialted between the two... Oh sure, one might require differnet resourches or strategies but either way the Bush administartion failed the Amercian people yet again... The Bush administartions own National Respone Plan that was release last January made mention of natural disasters yet wheh it waas time to act on their own plan, it was the usual deer-in-the-headlights response we're getting purdy used to seeing out of these incompetent fools... For the life of me I can't understand how folks can still defend these losers unless, od course, the defenders are part of the few you gain finacially from the fleecing of the working class... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Buzz Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM Again Bobert, you cannot answer a single question because you do not know the answer or you know the answer will prove you are full of shit. You counter with a bunch "More Important" of questions. You answer first |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM Well, wel, well, Buzzer... First of all, proclamation that someone is "full of sh*t" is nuting more tha proclaimation... It and 89 cents will get you a 12 ounce cup of coffee at the local conveince store... Now Michael Powel has allready testified before congress that he told Bush on 27 that a Cat 4 or Cat 5 hurricane ***WAS*** going to hit the Gulf coast... This bit of information is a thousand times *MORE* imporatnt than when the Governor made the request.. I mean, really, tell us why you think this is such a *RIVETING* peice of inforamtion... Can you do that??? Now, TO WIT: According to today's Washington Post ("Panel May Subpoena Bush Aides on Storm") it looks as if Bush is trying to runout the clock with thenusual sandbagging tactics he has employed since 2001 when not wanting to provide inforamtion that will show just how incompetent this adminstration is... Oh yeah, Bush and his croonies will argue that they have turned over 450,000 documents but the problem is they aren't turning the ones over that will reveal when various folks told Bush about this or that or made ***requests***, Buzzman, for assistance... So for you to say I'm the one who is "Full of Sh*t" is nuthing perhaps you projecting your own weak knowledge of what's really going on... Heck, there are even Republican congressfolks who want Bush to level with them... But, hark, the Katrinq investigation is about to enter it's 90th day and will die upon that date and then it will be up to the historians to dig out the truth... One thing is for sure, Bush and his secrecy is going to keep historians in employement for decades exposing all his cover-ups... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM Refresh to give the Bushites yet another opportunity to defend their hero... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:54 PM The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A.) was wasting its money and resources fighting the perceived 'terrorist threat'. Slight correction... The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A) was wasting the U.S. taxpayer's money and resources (etc.)... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM Refresh to give the Bushites yet another chance to defend their hero... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Dec 05 - 05:42 PM Daily refresh in case any of the Bushites have discovered something about Bush's reponse they find is defendable.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Leadfingers Date: 18 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM Oh What Fun ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Leadfingers Date: 18 Dec 05 - 03:09 PM 100 !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:11 PM I knew it was you, Leadfingers, when I saw it had hit 100... Yer right on top of this stuff... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Buzz Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:02 AM Bobert: I see you have to dig up this miserable unpopular thread and post to it when it falls off of the list due to lack of interest. Sort of like jacking off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM Ahhhh, first of all "jacking off" is fir teenagers... Well, maybe not in yer case... Secondly, you know fully why I refresh this thread and ain't got nuthin to do with me but everything to do with Bush and his Brownshirt followers... Refresh... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM The Doonesbury comic strip which baldly satirizes the ineptitude and corruption surrounding the reconstruction in the Gulf region of the US was the subject recently of a survey of Louisiana residents who were asked what they thought of it. By and large they seem to thinnk it is fair and represents the actual state of incpmpetence and corruption behind FEMA's efforts. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:47 AM Amos, It says nothing about the corruption "behind FEMA's efforts" as it does to the corruption of Lousiana government officials. Nice try, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM Actually, the corruption is in D.C. where a bunch of radicals are in the process of fleeecing the average workining American to give big tax breaks to folks who don't need them... D.C. is definately the corruption epicenter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:44 PM One people divided by a common President. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:27 PM Yeah, Bruce, like most of the things that Bush has said that turned out to be lies, his statement "I'm a uniter, not a divider" is as far from the truth as the rest of 'um... You know, sometimes I think he's just plain stupid but other times I give him the benefit of the doubt and just figure the man as a pathological liar... Really don't matter much... Waht he has done is solidify his presidency as one of the worst, if not the absolute worst, of any of 'um.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM Yeah, Bruce, like most of the things that Bush has said that turned out to be lies, his statement "I'm a uniter, not a divider" is as far from the truth as the rest of 'um... You know, sometimes I think he's just plain stupid but other times I give him the benefit of the doubt and just figure the man as a pathological liar... Really don't matter much... What he has done is solidify his presidency as one of the worst, if not the absolute worst, of any of 'um.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM That's twice you said that, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM Opps... How does this happen??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Buzz Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM Yass Bobert, your self gratification is most impressive. Ir reminds on of the song: Oh Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to look in the mirror cause I get better loking each day. To know me is to love me I must be a hell of a man. Oh Lord it's hard to be humble but I'm doing the best that I can. I used to have a girlfriend but she just couldn't compete with all of these love starved women who keep clamoring at my feet. Well I prob'ly could find me another but I guess they're all in awe of me. Who cares, I never get lonesome cause I treasure my own company. Oh Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way, I can't wait to look in the mirror cause I get better looking each day To know me is to love me I must be a hell of a man. Oh Lord it's hard to be humble but I'm doing the best that I can. I guess you could say I'm a loner, a cowboy outlaw tough and proud. I could have lots of friends if I want to but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd. Some folks say that I'm egotistical. Hell, I don't even know what that means. I guess it has something to do with the way that I fill out my skin tight blue jeans. Oh Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way, I can't wait to look in the mirror cause I get better looking each day To know me is to love me I must be a hell of a man. Oh Lord it's hard to be humble but I'm doing the best that I can. We're doing the best that we can |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:10 AM John Prine??? Awww, Buzzer, come on over an get a big hug... Sniff... I love John Prine songs... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Buzz: Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:19 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:21 AM Well there ya go -- that makes up fer Bobert doubling up! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM Ahhhh, so it was John Prine??? I remember the song... Might have don it in the mid 70's... Heck, maybe I'm makin' it all up... But I ain't makin' up th4 fact5 that Bush dropped the ball on "protecting Americans" when it came to Katrina... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM Refresh, just in case one of the Bush apologists has come up with a "new & improved" story... Ahhhhh, heck, any story will do... They Bushites don't have any answers to this one other than personal attacks... I love personal attacks because it means they have no other defense... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Crowbar Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM Bobert: What would you have done to protect Americans during hurricane Katrina? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:01 AM "Bobert - 20 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM I love personal attacks because it means they have no other defense..." Well you would know pal, you make more personal attacks, and threaten more physical violence on this site than anybody else. This thread of yours, that you had provided forewarning on that you had done your "homework on" must have proved a bit of a disappointment around 40% of the posts on it are your own. One point though Bobert can you define the differences between "Katrina" and "Rita" the same overall organisation and procedures were used and in the case of the latter resources were constrained due to ongoing work due to "Katrina" Are you going to congratulate those, top to bottom, involved in dealing with Rita, or doesn't your political bigotry allow that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:27 AM The difference in the two was in the "response", T... Yes, same overall organization just that with Katrine one thing was missing: an order for FEMA to mobilize... Brown said he spoke with Bush two days before Katrina amd told him that he was very concerned about the possibility of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 hitting the Gulf Coast... Now we learn that Gov. Blanko was making pleas as well... The White House is sandbagging on providing documents that would prove that... Bottome line, if FEMA was the calvery, because of Bush's failure to order Chertoff to mobilize FEMA, the calvery was late... And, yes, nice job on Rita... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:50 AM Oh, an BTW, T, perhaps you find my sthick threatening but about 99% of my threats are done playfully... Like challenging Bush or Cheney to a fist fight... There is one exception I can recall where I had a Catter blatently making false and vicious charges against me but even this Catter and I have now met personaslly and I believe we have not only a freidship but a level of mutual respect... The rest is just plain funnin'... That's one thing I can always count of from you, however... Your absolute literalism... And, no, there's no threat intended in that observation... Jus' calling it the way I see it... In the word's of John Riggins to Sandra Day O'Conner, "Ya gotta loosen up, Baby..." Peace Bobert p.s. I know, who's John Riggins??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:15 PM "Awww, Buzzer, come on over an get a big hug..." F##kin' Kodak moment there and I missed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Crowbar Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:47 AM Bobert: I see you have nothing to say about what you would do to protect Americans if you were in the same situation as Bush. How can you know was wrong if you don't know what was the right thing to do. Your tread is nothing but the rantings of an anarchist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM Haha, C-Bar... You couldn't be further wrong if you got up at the 4:00 in the morning and packed two lunches for the task... No, I believe very much in "govern"ment... That, my fried isn't anarchy... But, first, what I would have done was after 9/11 and having told people that I was out to protect them, I wouldn't have allowed FEMA to get kicked so far down the food chain that if the United Sates was hit again by terrorists that the country would have no agency with the tools to deal with the aftermath... That is what Bush did... He allowed a fully functional department that had the resources and knowledge to deal with such events to be gutted... Even the last Secretary of FEMA, who had run Bush's 2000 election, quit is disgust when FEMA was gutted... So in answering your question, C-Bar, alllot of what IO wopuld have done is not doing alot of what Bush did... Seems that everything that Clinton had done, Bush just thought he had some mandate because he had better lawyers that Gore to undo... So he undid FEMA and then when the country needed a rapid response after a national catastrope, there wasn't a fully functional FEMA to call upon... I think if the Martians were to drop in and take a loof at what went on that Bush is closer to be the anarchist... BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Crowbar Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM Bobert: You said nothing of what you would have done. You have no idea of what you would have done. Typical of you. Turn on the vacuum cleaner and put the hose in your right ear. Do you feel air rushing into your left ear? First of all who insisted that FFEMA had to be incorporated into DHS over Bush's objections? Maybe it was the Martians that you think exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:49 PM Okay, Old Guy: 1. Called off my vacation.. 2. Called Michael Brown and told him to meet me at the White House on Sunday, Sept. 28th to discuss what what still intact... 3. Called Gov. Blanca and asked her to be in D.C. for the same meeting. 4. Called the Joints Chiefs of Staff and had them attend... 5. Called the Secretary of Homeland Security and had him attend... 6. Ask everyone that I called if there was someone else who should be in attendance... 7. Go on the TV on Sunday night, Sept. 28th and told the country that a massive disaster was bout to occur and plead with folks in New Orleans to try to find ways to evaculate... I would have also asked for churches and communtiy programs in neigboring states to ready themselves for incoming avacuees... 8. Alerted the Red Cross of the coming disaster.. 9. Set up a command center... 10. Not stuck my head in the sand Yeah, Old Guy, this is what I would have done... Tghis is what Bill Clinton would have done... This is what Richard Nixon would have done... This is what Jerald Ford would have done... This is what Jimmy Carter would have done... This is probably what even Reagan would have done... Your guy??? AWOL!!!! ("Don't bother me, I'm on vacation, you morons...") Hey, Old-G, even Bush's satff had to prepare a movie to show him so that he would ***GET*** what was going down???? Go figure???? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM Excuse me, C-Bar,it justseems that at time you are more like O-Guy than o-Guy himself... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:17 AM GOOOOD observation, Bobert. The man of many faces it seems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:46 AM Bobert, while this will seem like a moot point to you and you will say I am too specific or you might even say "Ya gonna ream a guy for a simple mistake?", your September 28th meeting might have been a little late. By a month.. To me, this is indicative of your postings regarding Katrina. The reason I choose to ignore your ranting and ravings. I still wonder why a man in your position would not have tossed some equipment and clothes in a vehicle and went to the area to help out for a couple weeks. Don't forget the Feds and other agencies had hundreds of vehicles headed towards the strike zone a couple days before the hit. They could not get there in time to do the evacuation. That was up to the firsy trsponders. As I said elsewhere, the truth would come to the surface. While it is still apparent that local Government failed to a degree, many of the NO residents could not have been pried out of there with a crowbar. About everything you list was done. The Red Cross and the Salvation Army were on the outskirts of the strike zone BEFORE Katrina hit. Doing what you suggest on Sunday night would have been a little late, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:14 AM August 28th, gol dangit, A... You knew I meant August 28th but being the "A" that you are you decided that since I goofed on the month that now your guy did all the right thngs... Next thing ya know you'll be declaring yer guy kind because I don't spell they way you like??? BTW, when was FEMA cut loose, A: 2 days before Katrina ________ 1 day before Katrina _________ The day of Katrina ___________ 1 day after Katrina __________ 2 days after Katrina _________ (pick one) And who triggers the order: "You're doing a good good job" Brownie _____________ The Secretary of DHS Chertoff ______________________ The President ______________________________________ (Pick one) And where does the buck stop if such an order is late coming? Donald Duck _________ Spiro Agnew _________ Jessie Jackson ______ Hillary Clinton _____ GW Bush _____________ (Pick one) Ya starting to get it yet, A??? You need piccures??? There plenty of them.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:07 AM bobert, the reference to the date was simply a little dig but does imply questions about the veracity of your posts. Why didn't you addess some of the other points in my post rather than going into the 'bobert defense mode?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST, Old Guy Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:16 PM 1. Called off my vacation When does Bush take a vacation? He has an office staff with him and offices at the ranch, Camp David and in Air Force 1. He is always available, even overseas. As a matter of fact he did have a meeting with Blanco and Nagin on the ground in AF1 in NO wherein he asked Blanko if she wanted him to take over the National Guard. She said she needed 24 hours to give him an answer. She claimed to have asked him before the meeting. 2. Called Michael Brown and told him to meet me at the White House on Sunday, Sept. 28th to discuss what what still intact... intact??? Katrina made landfall 7AM Monday the 29th. 3. Called Gov. Blanca and asked her to be in D.C. for the same meeting. Would she have gone? How would she travel? 4. Called the Joints Chiefs of Staff and had them attend... 5. Called the Secretary of Homeland Security and had him attend... 6. Ask everyone that I called if there was someone else who should be in attendance... All of these meetings would have been premature unless they were going to figure out a way to turn the hurricane around and keep it from hitting. 7. Go on the TV on Sunday night, Sept. 28th and told the country that a massive disaster was bout to occur and plead with folks in New Orleans to try to find ways to evacuate... I would have also asked for churches and community programs in neighboring states to ready themselves for incoming evacuees... I knew from several sources that a disaster was going to occur. I spent Sunday afternoon and into the night convincing my daughter to leave her stuff and get out of NO. Of course you claim Bush to be a liar so folks like you would not believe him. Also why should he override local governments. the plans that they go by say the local government is the first responder. I presume you would ignore the plans and "make up laws as you go" The New Orleans' Emergency Plan for hurricanes and The State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Planhave been made inaccessible for some reason so we can't read that. But the state has made The Federal Response Plan available on their site. Hmmmmmmmm. Does it sound like they are hiding their own failures and placing all of their responsibilities on the Federal Government? 8. Alerted the Red Cross of the coming disaster.. I am sure the Red Cross was well aware of the situation. 9. Set up a command center... I see dozens of command centers that were set up. Most likely each agency and relief group had a command center of their own. Are you saying they should have all been in the same place or some agency did not have one? 10. Not stuck my head in the sand. Complete sarcasm that means nothing and accomplishes nothing. My plan of what should have been done: A. Refuse the Democrats ( like Hillary and Kerry) demand to make FEMA part of Homeland security. B. The residents of Louisianna and New Orleans should have voted for a Republican government. The one they have is typically irresponsible, incapable and corrupt. The way they handle the disaster is to point fingers, hide their failures, find fault with others and hold their hands out for aid. C. Bush should have checked out "Brownie" throughly. He should go back and revisit every appointee to see of they are qualified. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:32 PM Also why should he override local governments. The local governments asked for assistance (they did not ask to be overridden). According to FEMA's job description, FEMA was required to provide the requested assistance, once it was requested. Not only did FEMA not provide the assistance that was needed (and requested), they actually interfered with the efforts of local authorities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:05 PM Their idea of asking for assistance is "send me everything youv'e got" Real professional like. They only know how to ask for aid. They have no idea of how to be responsible and handle things themselves. They had a plan. Did they follow it? How come we cannot see the plan anymore? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM "Everything you've got" really was an accurate description of what was needed. The local people knew even before Katrina hit that they didn't have the resources to handle a storm of that magnitude. That's why they asked for assistance. The plan did not include evacuating everyone out of the city. They knew they didn't have the resources for that (Mayor Nagin said precisely that a couple of months before Katrina hit). The plan was to evacuate as many people as they could to shelters using municipal busses. And that's exactly what they did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:27 PM BTW, I've read the "plan". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:28 PM Well, then why is yer guy sandbagging on providing the notes and documents on his end of the deal??? Yeah, everytime he is asked for notes on his screw-ups he sandbags... Or claims executive priviledge... Problem is that most folks just don't trust Bush any more so if I were him, I'd be doing a lot less sandbagging rather than more... Ahhhh, BTW, O=Guy, the reason that I would have been meeeting with all the principles on August 27th or 28th is because by then I, like Bush was, wopuld have been forewarned that a major disacter was about to hit the coast... It's called "pro-acting" rather than reacting... Bush did not pro-act... Might of fact he went the wrong direction going to Califirnia to give a speech about his Medicaid reform ideas, which incidently means deeper and deeper cut to those who need the help the most??? Go figure??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM You are getting your time wasted by Old Guy, Bobert. You jus' pissin' into the wind, son. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM Send me everything youv'e got would include what? A boquet if flowers? A Dominos pizza? Someone who knows how to do my job? It is a ridiculous statement to make, even for a woman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM All this intelligence and a sexist too. Who'd a thunk it? OG, you just go from strength to strength. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM Yer right, Bruce... This guy is incapable of carrying on a debate or discussion or conversation or much more than anything excpet a Fox/Bush pep ralley... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM Send me Everything you've got would include what? A boquet of flowers? A dominoes pizza. It is a ridiculous thing to say, even for a woman. Now we see that Peace sired Bobert. Is daddy proud? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM Send me everything youv'e got would include what? A boquet if flowers? A Dominos pizza? Someone who knows how to do my job? It would include everything that was dealt with in the operation Pam scenario. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM OG, all you have ever sired is apologist crap. Bobert is a fine young man as you can see by his posts. He has the verve and good manners to post under his own name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM Bobert, my son, ignore that guy. He is a misled individual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 31 Dec 05 - 11:30 AM I found a Bobert in the phone book: Feizel Bobert 10932 Brunson Way Glen Allen, VA 23060 804-270-6549 I found a peace too: A. Peace 110 Main St Stump Creek, PA 15863 814-427-5252 So I guess you guys are legit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM Ain't no trouble finding me, Old Guy... I got a CD comin' out next month... I attend Getaways... I perform under "Sidewalk Bob"... If you want to find out even more then go to the Page News and Courier (Vol 138 No. 35, Sept.1, 2005) and check out my smiling face on the front page and a nice article about some of ther stuff I'm into... Ain't no guessin' about my legit... I've met one heck of alot of Mudcatters who would tell ya if I'm legit... Might of fact, if you still have doubts, start a thread entritled "Is Bobert Legit?"... Oh, BTW, may a follow-up thread entitled "Is GUEST, Old Guy Legit" might be intersting... Of course, lie the MG thread that MG prolly atarted himself under another phony "guest" you'd prolly be the obly one postin' to it... But, what the hey, have a nice new years... Bobert "the Legit" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 31 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM But was yore mama and Peace married? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Edward Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:17 AM Bush To Make Up Missed National Guard Service This Weekend March 3, 2004 | Issue 40•09 WASHINGTON, DC—In a move intended to dispel criticism over his Vietnam-era military record, President Bush announced Monday that he will spend the weekend at the Sheppard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, TX, to make up his missed National Guard service. Enlarge ImageBush To Make Up Missed National Guard Service This Weekend Bush tries on his new uniform. "My fellow Americans, let's put an end to this controversy," Bush said. "This weekend, I'll take two days off from leading the greatest nation in the world, go down to Texas, and do drills with the Texas Air National Guard, if that'll make you happy. I can't imagine anything more important for me to do than sets of push-ups with a bunch of enlisted Guardsmen." Added Bush: "Don't let me forget to ask Cheney to fill in for me as leader of the free world. Because I'll be busy spit-shining flight boots." Critics claim records show that Bush was not seen by his direct military superiors from May 1972 to June 1973. The controversy, which first arose during Bush's Texas gubernatorial bid in 1994, resurfaced Jan. 17, when filmmaker Michael Moore called Bush a "deserter" at a rally for Democratic candidate Wesley Clark. Although the White House has tried to prove that Bush fulfilled his obligations by releasing torn payroll records and evidence of a dental check-up, many remain unconvinced. Critics have said Bush's reluctance to release his entire military file indicates that he's hiding something. "Go ahead and wave your dusty stacks of papers, call names, and point fingers," Bush said. "I'm just going to have to be the bigger man." Bush, whose approval numbers have declined in recent weeks, said the accusations were false, but that he was willing to do "whatever it takes to please everybody" so that he "can return to the business of governing the country." "I had to cancel dozens of appointments with cabinet members, congressional leaders, and foreign dignitaries," Bush said. "All that stuff's going to have to wait, since this 30-year-old story is apparently a pressing national concern, or something." White House communications director Dan Bartlett appeared on CNN with Wolf Blitzer to defend the president. "Others want to focus on talk, but President Bush is focused on action," Bartlett said. "George Bush, whose chief priority is keeping our country safe in a post-September 11 world, believes that going down there and making up a couple days' service is the best way to finally put this issue to rest." Retired Army Gen. John Wilcox warned Bush that his service in Alabama might have unexpected consequences. "Once he gets there, he's an enlisted man like anybody else," Wilcox said. "A lot of other National Guard and Army reservists thought they were just signing up for some tame domestic training and ended up in Iraq or Afghanistan. The president is taking a real risk here. For his sake and the sake of the nation, I hope he doesn't get shipped out." At a press conference Monday afternoon, a reporter asked White House press secretary Scott McClellan why Bush wasn't making up his time in Alabama, where critics say he failed to report for drills during the entire time he was working on a family friend's U.S. Senate campaign. "Well, the president is familiar with the base in Texas, so he chose to do his service there," McClellan said. "Why would he go to some random base in Alabama that he's never even been to before? I mean—let me start over. He did serve at the Alabama base, but we felt it would be easier to accommodate travel to a base that was closer to his ranch in Crawford. Case closed." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:20 AM "But was yore mama and Peace married?" Absolutely. Unlike your background--you having been begat on a duchess by a head waiter--ours is darn near immaculate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Just figgered it out. Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:59 AM Old Guy is not all that old and 'he' is not a guy. You lasted a few months. Better than you deserve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:06 AM bobert, with regard to many of your posts, it would appear your concern with being "legit" is your greatest concern. A CD coming out , attending getaways and performing as sidewalk bob mean nothing to the casual observer. Next time you do a show in Chicago, let us know. The music scene there is going well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:31 AM The point was that I am not an annonomous GUEST, GUEST, as someone implied... I'm a real person who ain't all that hard to find, unlike those like yourself who have all the courage of a drive-by shooter... Yeah, it's easy to attack others from GUESTdom... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,guest Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:12 AM No attack intended, I noticed you are easily offended when no real offense is intended. Besides, I am "Guest", you are "Bobert" and how much definition does that give the 'casual observer'? Did I not say "let us know the next time you are in Chicago"? Certainly did not mean to imply you are 'a-nony-moose'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM Does Bobert have the courage to fight for his country or would he rather fight for thr deserters who flee to Canuckistan? I heard something about a hanging down in Fort Jefferson for some people who thought they were doing the right thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 06 - 03:20 PM Ain't 'bout one courage or lack there of... I've put my self in harms way to fight the good fights, be it fighting for civil rights, stopping dumb-ass wars, teaching GED in the Richmond city jail or working at a drug rehab facility in the roughest neighborhood in Richomond... Courage is measured an many different forms... Maybe you'd like to strp out from behind the duck-mask long enough to share what you have done in yer life that required courage, GUEST, Geoduck... As fir GUEST, guest... Hey, it ain't paranoia if they are out to get you... Seems that a few of us get under the Bushite's skin here because we expose Bush for the lousy president he is and our reward for exposing Bush are constant attacks from these Bushites... So, yeah, I'll admit that if yer an Amos, or a Ron Davis, or a Bobert, these folks are gonna try to roll you under the bus every chance they get... That's all they have left... They think if they loose one danged point then the house of cards will fold so they claw and the distratc and they call folks names and, and, and... Sure, I mess with folks names but I don't do it with maliciosness but a level of humor that doesn't come accross when these folks attack me... Perfect example is right here... I sometimes call Geoduck, Quackster or Duck... (Like, how mean spirited, Bobert)... In turn I get post like the one above from the Quacki which implies that someone who does not agree lockstep with the policies of his country does not have "courage"??? LIke what is that all about??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM You are not exposing anyone or anything. Simply listing wildassed charges and quoting the opinions of others because they happen to agree with your biased way of thinking. I think GWB is doing a fairly good job inasmuch as the Country was allowed free wheeling the 8 years before him and even possible a little of that happened with Bush 1. What a mess GWB come into, the Country settling into a recession, the military cut in half, foreign relations on the back burner and several countries given the gift of A-Bomb possibilites by his predecessor and a couple of half-baked appointees. Madeline and The secret document thief come to mind. "It was just an accident that those papers ended up in my socks." And then 9-11 which was just the next part of an escalating series of terriost operations which include the World trade center a few years before, the Saudi barracks, the Kuwaiti barracks, the USS Cole, the US foreign Embassies, etc. Don't you think that whoever was watching the store could have caught a clue? Naw, lets just blame a President who is trying to correct all those messes. I don't know if I qualify to be "Bushite" or not. I am not really sure what that is. However, if I do have enough points to be called one, let me be the first to assure you that you cannot get under my skin. I have not seen the talent here necessary to do that. You apparently have grandiose thoughts about your abilities. That is delusional. We shall work on the paranoid tendencies later. Just don't look over your shoulder until that lesson is covered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 06 - 05:42 PM Oh, it is Geoduck again. The dumb shit who said there were WMDs in Iraq, even when Bush disagreed with him. Welcome back stupid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM Yeah, GUEST, since you think Bush is doing such a fine job maybe you'd like to go back the first post in this thread and answer for him.... Here we are over 150 posts and other then partisan opinios and name calling by you and the other "couragous" GUESTS I can't think of one of you who has provided the slightest rebuttal to that original argument that I presented... Yeah, big brave GUESTS... Can sho nuff huff n' puff but that seems to be about all you collectively have done since I started this thread... Tell me why Michael Brown took the bullet... Tell me again why the National Response Plan wasn't followed... Tell me again how great a job Bush is doing protecting the Amercian people... You won't... Heck, none of you Bushite GUESTS can.... You'll just try to brush this off... great defense... ignore ther facts and real arguments... Normal... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM "Yeah, GUEST, since you think" That was your first erroneous assumption, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:01 PM Good point, Bruce... Maybe that's why they call 'um GUEST's??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM I am pointing out the wrong thinking of maladjusted people like Amos, Peace, Ron D and Bobert. Their thinking is biased because Bush won the election twice despite their best efforts to keep him from winning. Then they claim he did not win and they rail against everybody that tries to inform them of the truth. They cannot produce any facts to support their positions. They resort to scarasm, entertainment, altering people's names, really credible stuff. All the while they say things like "statistics are for loosers" Remember those Japs they found in the Phillipines a few years back? They still believed they were at war while the rest of the world was moving along. It is time for these in denial people to join the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM Hey. Old 'shit for brains' is back. Gonna tell us all about--uh, yeah, WMDs that were found in Iraq? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:50 PM "Remember those Japs they found in the Phillipines a few years back?" But then one should expect shit for brains from a racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM Bobert, thought I'd take a look here after seeing your message to the anonymouthed guests. I haven't posted here because I got sorta low about the whole affair, since the maximum leader has only suggested ante-ing up for 3 level hurricane protection when more is needed. Especially when the main levees that protect N. O. from flood are on the navigable canal which is the responsibility of the federal government. The Impeach thread didn't catch my interest either, since if bushy is tossed, the next in line is scary rather than just plain stupid. Even the possibility of making a nice bit of change building condos and marinas in the Ninth Ward, after the po' were displaced and trailered and suckered out of their title deeds, didn't raise my spirits much. But such is life where an administration spends billions killing Iraqis and young Americans, when so much needs attention at home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:53 PM Yo Q: I can understand some of what you are saying but what is the situation down there on local corruption? We need more people posting here, pro and con, guests or not. The cons think this is their turf and get hostile when someone opposes them by pointing out their fabrications. Freedom of speech is reserved for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:18 AM There seems to be a measure of corruption wherever contracts are involved, regardless of the level of government. Some blame must adhere to the Louisiana Congressmen who voted to spend half a billion (and rising) on a bridge across the Navigation Canal and postpose spending on levees along it, but this neglect of levees along a federally maintained navigable waterway is a result of failed federal responsibility, including the president's. A bridge to nowhere in Alaska is approved in Congress when the same amount of money could help improve our waterways and highways; many other examples of pork-barreling and waste could be mentioned. A few corrupt cops and inept local politicians is small potatoes, compared with failure to lead and to fight mis-directed spending at the federal level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM A slight addendum, Q: the "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska has been cancelled at the moment. There were a number of responses from Alaskans and others, calling for redirection of those 23 Million dollars and Congress eventually allotted the overall sum and told Alaska to figure out for herself where she wants to spend it. The governor's administration is working on that now. Incidentally, as I've mentioned in a thread before, Bridge to Nowhere never quite reflected the truth. It is true that only about 50 people live on the island; however, the airport is on that island and outgoing and homecoming townspeople have to pay $12.00 each way for a very short ride each time they leave town or when they meet someone at the airport. Notwithstanding that, not only other Alaskans but many Ketchikan people were agin it. One person FOR it was the governor, who grew up there. Now, ask me about the "Million Dollar Bridge to Nowhere", and we'll have something to talk about. That was erected in the wilderness under Republican Governor Wally Hickel back in the 60s or 70s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:08 AM I could have envisioned the money spent for a new airport on the mainland. Island airports )except in Japan) are very small and probably would not have required $23 million. But, that is sensible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:53 PM You're probably right, Ebbie (haven't looked it up). CNN made it sound like the equivalent in magnitude to the Great Wall of China. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:11 AM Times Pickayune Saturday, January 07, 2006 The mayor and council have been sparring about which sites in New Orleans should be used to house trailers as temporary homes for returning residents. The council had passed an ordinance giving its members authority to block trailer sites in their districts after the mayor had proposed sites that included parks and playgrounds. Nagin vetoed the ordinance but the council overrode the veto. Nagin then said the trailers site would stand, regardless of the council action, but later back tracked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:35 AM CNN Transcript: GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO, LOUISIANA: Well, in the heat of battle a lot of things happen. And we feel like we're in the heat of battle. That having been said, we had a great day together. The president came in and we believe that he solidly is behind our efforts, without a doubt. O'BRIEN: Solidly behind your efforts, although there's been much written about kind of a power tussle between the two of you. Specifically, the mayor was telling us about a flight on Air Force One. And he said that you and he and the president were all in a room and finally you and the president went separately to have a meeting. Listen to what the mayor told us, ma'am, if you will. MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: He called me in that office after that and he said, Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said -- and I don't remember exactly what -- two options. I was ready to move today, but the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision. O'BRIEN: Twenty-four hours, is that right? Was that what came out of that meeting on the tarmac with the president? BLANCO: Soledad, the mayor was not in my meeting. And it was -- I'll tell you, it was a meeting that did not affect what was going on out in the field. They were talking about paper organizations, nothing else, nothing more, and they gave me a very complicated proposition to look at. It didn't help our effort in that instant moment. I needed a little time to understand exactly what it meant. We went forward, all of us, all of the resources were there, nothing stopped. We ended up coming to terms and agreement, and I think that the effort is going great. O'BRIEN: Coming to terms, meaning that you rejected, after that 24-hour window, that you didn't have any interest in federalizing the troops or turning power over to the president. Why not hand it over, Madam Governor, when the first five days, and I think that meeting was on Friday, so the first several days of the recovery were clearly disastrous? BLANCO: The first five days of the recovery were heroic. We were the people who took control. The National Guard took control of the city, brought order out of chaos, because we have law enforcement authority. The federal troops do not. I was very concerned about giving up law enforcement authority. O'BRIEN: Heroic, but by a very small number of people who were on the ground. In fact, I believe it was Friday morning when I was talking to the FEMA director who had only just seen that there were tens of thousands of people at the convention center. So at least by Thursday, let's say the first four days, those people at the convention center were actually not getting anything. If it was not well coordinated... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM Like, who cares... This is testimony aboutr vents that happened welll after Bush failed to repond... FEMA, using the Natinoal Respose Plan, should have been on this days before what Blanco is talking about here... But good try, GUEST... Keep workin'... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:27 PM It don't take much of a try. You say "should have been" You don't know? Katrina expert Bobert, when did you know who say this: Miles O'Brien: What what day did you ask for Federal troops? "I don't even know what day it is." "I really need to call for the military, I mean, I really should have started that in the first call." Why is Nagin fighting with the city council while FEMA is sitting on thousands of RV's that people need asking where to put them while the arguees are both pointing a finger at FEMA saying they are taking too long? That don't even take a try. It is slam dunk evidence that the government down there is incoptent. COuld they be Democrats? Put some facts where your mouth is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM Nice piece of BS, Duckster... So, Duckster, when did this conversation occur??? Ahhhhh, while you are explaing that, how about expalining how turning over of troops to N.O would have triggered FEMA to act??? Kinda fuzzy on that one... Please review the NRP before answering since you've allready made a "duck" of yerself her with the last post... Bobert (Katrina expert) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 09 Jan 06 - 01:09 AM So these are facts? They are not and that is a fact. All research from the Let's blame it on Bush research center and no results. I guess "send me everything you have" should have triggered FEMA and the Navy Marching band too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html "You may have seen mention of the "Hurricane Pam" exercise in press coverage of Louisiana's emergency preparedness, or lack thereof. I was at the Hurricane Pam exercise, and I think maybe I can clear a few things up... ...There was a certain amount of contention, a few turf wars, some loud talk. None if it consequential, in the end, because of the single greatest emollient: FEMA. The Federal Emergency Management Agency promised the moon and the stars. They promised to have 1,000,000 bottles of water per day coming into affected areas within 48 hours. They promised massive prestaging with water, ice, medical supplies and generators. Anything that was needed, they would have either in place as the storm hit or ready to move in immediately after. All it would take is a phone call from local officials to the state, who would then call FEMA, and it would be done. There were contracts-in-place with major vendors across the country and prestaging areas were already determined (I'll have more to say about this later, but this is one reason FEMA has rejected large donation and turned back freelance shipments of water, medical supplies, food, etc: they have contracts in place to purchase those items, and accepting the same product from another source could be construed as breach of contract, and could lead to contract cancellation, thus removing a reliable source of product from the pool of available resources. I'm not saying I agree with this -- in fact, I don't, and think it's boneheaded -- but the reasoning is that if they accept five semis of water from the east Weewau, Wisconsin, Chamber of Commerce, the water supplier who is contractually bound to provide 100,000 gallons per day will be freed from that obligation. The organizers of the exercise -- particularly the former commender of LOHSEP, Col. Michael Brown (not that one) -- insisted that the plans contain no "fairy dust": no magical leaps of supply chains or providers: if you said you would need 500 semis for your part of the plan, you had to specify where the 500 semis were coming from. Everyone tried to keep the fairy dust to a minimum, and they did so, for the most part, despite having big plans: LSU, Southern, Southeastern and other campuses dismissed for the semester and turned into giant triage centers/tent cities; acres of temporary housing built on government-owned land; C-130 transport planes ferrying evacuees to relatives in other states, and so on. Bold plans, but doable, with cooperation. A comprehensive plan was beginning to emerge. Except that it didn't. A followup conference, to iron out difficulties in some of the individual plans and to formalize presentation of the final package, scheduled for either late '04 or early '05 -- I can't remember and can find no mention of the followup event on the web -- was cancelled at the last minute, due to lack of funding (which agency called the cancellation, I'm not sure, although the lack of funds would take it all back to FEMA, in the end). So: Louisiana did have a hurricane plan, but was devising a new one, to be based on recommendation from the people who would actually be doing the work. The need to evacuate people from impact areas, including those without transportation or the means to obtain it, was discussed, despite media assertions to the contrary. The possibility of levee overflow was discussed (levee breaching may have been discussed at some point, but I was in the dewatering room, and I never heard it mentioned. A rescue and evacuation plan, including sheltering, was reasonably firm. There were and are officials in Louisiana, including New Orleans Emergency Management, who know the limitations of current planning and who have been trying to come up with a better solution. The problem is FEMA, and by extension the Department of Homeland Security, which gobbled FEMA up in 2003. FEMA promised more than they could deliver. They cut off deeper, perhaps more meaningful discussion and planning by handing out empty promises. The plans that were made -- which were not given any sort of stamp of authority -- were never distributed or otherwise made available to those who most needed stable guidance; they vanished into the maw of FEMA and LOSHEP (probably when Col. Brown was removed from his command due to financial "irregularities" -- the project was tainted after that). Adoption of the National Incident Management System (NIMS) would have made most of the plans moot anyway -- FEMA's adherence to the untried NIMS is a primary reason for the chaos and ineptitude surrounding their relief efforts." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:33 AM Katrina Gate 101 for the Duck Once upon a time, a very bad thing happened and some angry people from Saudi Arabia hyjacked 4 American Airliners and flew 2 of the into buildings in New York, 1 into the Pentagon and the last airliner crashed in a Pennsylvania woods. This occured on September 11th and so it has since just been referred to as "Nine Eleven". Well, after nine-eleven, Presdent Bush confessed that his administartion had not "connected the dots" but promised to do better in the future even if it meant "hard work" because he said it was his job to "protect the American people". So his inner circle of friends had secret "connect the dots/protect the American people" meetings and decided that FEMA didn't need to be a Department anymore and so they gutted it and demoted it. End of Lesson 1 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:36 AM The same circumstances still prevail. Those who want to blame GWB for any negative concerning Katrina (and their ingrown toenail)are still brushing off, ignoring or just failing to comprehend facts that appear negative to the NO and LA governments. I wonder what it will take. Nevermind, negative mindsets are just that. Why did Mississippi have pretty good results? MS is well on the road to rebuilding while NO is STILL arguing where to place trailers for housing those still in other cities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM Stay tuned, A, for Lesson Two... And, BTW, yes, there will be a test after all the lessons have been completed so you perhaps should pay close attention... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:54 AM Whoa Perfesser square pants, if you are going recite history to us to build a foundation for your rant aginst the government, let's go back to when New Orleans first became part of America. Thomas Jefferson violated the Constitution in the process so maybe we should reverse his decision give it back to France. We have to keep an eye on those presidents who make up their own laws and fix up what they broke don't we? The Louisiana Purchasehttp://gatewayno.com/history/LaPurchase.html By a treaty signed on Apr. 30, 1803, the United States purchased from France the Louisiana Territory, more than 2 million sq km (800,000 sq mi) of land extending from the Mississippi River to the Rocky Mountains. The price was 60 million francs, about $15 million; $11,250,000 was to be paid directly, with the balance to be covered by the assumption by the United States of French debts to American citizens. In 1762, France had ceded Louisiana to Spain, but by the secret Treaty of San Ildefonso (1800) the French had regained the area. Napoleon Bonaparte (the future Emperor Napoleon I) envisioned a great French empire in the New World, and he hoped to use the Mississippi Valley as a food and trade center to supply the island of Hispaniola, which was to be the heart of this empire. First, however, he had to restore French control of Hispaniola, where Haitian slaves under TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE had seized power (1801; see HAITI). In 1802 a large army sent by Napoleon under his brother-in-law, Charles Leclerc, arrived on the island to suppress the Haitian rebellion. Despite some military success, the French lost thousands of soldiers, mainly to yellow fever, and Napoleon soon realized that Hispaniola must be abandoned. Without that island he had little use for Louisiana. Facing renewed war with Great Britain, he could not spare troops to defend the territory; he needed funds, moreover, to support his military ventures in Europe. Accordingly, in April 1803 he offered to sell Louisiana to the United States. Concerned about French intentions, President Thomas Jefferson had already sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris to negotiate the purchase of a tract of land on the lower Mississippi or, at least, a guarantee of free navigation on the river. Surprised and delighted by the French offer of the whole territory, they immediately negotiated the treaty. Jefferson was jubilant. At one stroke the United States would double its size, an enormous tract of land would be open to settlement, and the free navigation of the Mississippi would be assured. Although the Constitution did not specifically empower the federal government to acquire new territory by treaty, Jefferson concluded that the practical benefits to the nation far outweighed the possible violation of the Constitution. The Senate concurred with this decision and voted ratification on Oct. 20, 1803. The Spanish, who had never given up physical possession of Louisiana to the French, did so in a ceremony at New Orleans on Nov. 30, 1803. In a second ceremony, on Dec. 20, 1803, the French turned Louisiana over to the United States. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:13 AM Katrina Gate 101- Lesson Two (Teacher's note to Duck: Please do not disturb the class anymore about things that don't pretain to these subject matter of this class. If you'd like to discuss the history of New Orleans then please sign up for "History of New Orleans 101". Thank you) Now after FEMA was gutted and demoted to "protect the American people" the Department of Homeland Security became the big dog and not only was it responsible for protecting the American people but it came in as a full departemnt with it's Secretary being in the president's cabinet. Now just to be sure that all the "dots were connected" and the "American people would be safe" the Department of Homeland Security and the folks on the president's staff developed something called the National Response Plan. The NRP looked at many scenerios where it might have to act in the event of a natural or terrorist led disaster. It even wnet so far as to plan for an event that might render local governemnts helpless. Within the NRP were procedures that would be followed if such an eventy occured. Now, the United Sates governemnt has a chain of command much like any business or corporation or the military and orders come from the top and are passed downward. In the case of a nutural or terrorist led disaster the command would look something like this: President orders the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security to act and the Secretary of DHS oders varuious agenciesm. including FEMA, to act. Can FEMA act on it's own, you might ask. Well, that's a good question. The answer is, "No". It must be ordered to act by the Secretay of the DHS who had been ordered to act by the president. End of Lesson 2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:41 AM Mississippi did not have good results. They had dismal results. Same problems with FEMA as New Orleans. The difference is that because New Orleans remained under water for a much longer amount of time, the problems caused by FEMA in New Orleans were greatly magnified as compared to Mississippi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 09 Jan 06 - 12:08 PM Perfessor. I want to know if this class is about Katrina or George Bush or what governments are supposed to do? If it is about Katrina it should begin when Katrina hit. If it is about what governments do in the event of a hurricane, it should begin in 1803. If it is about President Bush it should be named "Bush 101". And where does "gate" apply? Are those the flood gates that President Johnson has appopriated but doogoody, establishment bucking "environmentalists" defeated? If so it should be called "New Orleans Flood Gate 101" If it is about FEMA it should be called "FEMA 101" and should include the history of FEMA at least as far back as when the Democrats demanded that it be joined into DHS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,George Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM Hey Brownie, send everything we've got down to New Orleans, Blanko says she needs what ever it is. No. I thought you would know what it is. No she didn't say where to put it, just get it on the way and hopefully she can figger it out later on. Adios. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:48 PM PS: Also it was the Dems that demanded that DHS be created. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:31 PM Yes, the Democrats suck too. Now... what are we going to do with that useless behemoth (DHS)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:58 PM Katrina Gate 101- Lesson 3 (Note from the teacher to the Duck: This class is about Katrina"GATE" and having the "agte" part thrown in should be a clue that a scandal is involved. No more disruptions.) Okay, here the United Sates had a plan in place where in the case of a "natural" or terrorist led disaster the feds knew what they had to do. Or one might think since the president had gone around the country saying that tho it was hard work it was his job to "protect the American people". Now, given the fact that the plan was in place, the chain of command fully understood by all the parties, all that the president needed was to issue orders to impliment the plan. According to Michael Brown, he started to send up alerts to thew White House as early as August 26th, 3 full days before the hurricane and has stated under oath that he spoke with the prseident on Saturday, August 27th about his concerns that a Category 4, perhaps a Category 5 hurricane would hit the Gulf shore on the 29th of August. Now, fir those good students who have not been a disruption here is where the "gate" come into play. What did the president do on August 27th, two full days before the hurricane hit New Orleans, having been warned of the impending disaster and having a plan in place to "protect the American people"? This is the crux of Katrina"gate" and this is why we are having this discussion. Did Bush alert the Secretary of Homeland Security so he could order FEMA into action? Well, apparently, the president didn't. He, afterall, was on vacation. The End of Lesson 3 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:19 PM What happened to the concept that the first responders are local and State people and that FEMA arrives AFTER the event? I always wonder what would happen if we moved ALL our resources (FEDS) into the area BEFORE the crap hits the fan. WOuld not that just make more junk to clean up? Maybe, just maybe, my 114 page NRP document is an old issue, say from the 1920's? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:36 PM What happened to the concept that the first responders are local and State people and that FEMA arrives AFTER the event? That appears to have gone out the window when the federal govt. (in the form of FEMA) decided to impose the National Incident Management System (NIMS) on the local governments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 10 Jan 06 - 07:19 AM Back to my original question, the Feds imposed nothing without the consent of the Governor, who always wanted "24 hours to think it over". I will need a source And Carol C, @ 09 11:41.....I will certainly agree that "the problems of NO were greatly maginified as compared to Mississippi..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM Actually, GUEST G, you apparently missed missed one of the lessons... The Natiopnal Response Plan that the Bush administartion had in place autghorizes a "federal" response should local or state authorities be overwhelmed.... I would suggest that was the case with Katrina... That's my point here and that's why the "gate" in KatrinaGate... 1. The Feds supposedly had a plan... 2. Bush was warned that the plan would be needed by Micheal Brown... 3. Bush ignored the catastrophy... And I guess what is so amazing that with all the mis=steps of the Bush administartion, Brownie, who was doing his job with waht few tools were left in FEMA to act, took the weight... Had Bill Clinton done exactly what Bush did you Bushites would be making every argument that I have made here... Does that make me a Clinton apologists??? Heck no!!! Didn't care for his policies either but at least he wasn't the one responsible for gutting FEMA and kicking it down the ladder... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:49 AM What plan was there to make the locals, read city/state, not refuse to evacuate. Saturday and Sunday was too late to start the evacuation on a local scene. What could the Feds have done from a 1000+ miles away. And............Mississippi and later Texas did a timely evacuation without federal intervention. And, Clinton could not have done more if this had happened 6 years ago. One more thing, what was "the catastrophy" on that Saturday and Sunday? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM But the problems were the same. FEMA promised things that it didn't deliver. And because FEMA promised those things, people expected to be able to rely on them. FEMA promised a support structure that the local governments had every reason to expect would be there when it was needed. It wasn't. And not only that, but when there was any FEMA involvement, it often was in the form of interference with the efforts of the local governments and first responders. Yes the problems were magnified in NO. But they were essentially the same problems in all of the locations, with varying degrees of disasterous consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:09 PM The Texas evacuation for Hurricane Rita was a disaster. There was nothing "timely" about that evacuation. The New Orleans evacuation was far more effectively executed. And the Texas evacuation left pretty much the same amount of people at home as the New Orleans evacuation. Plus a lot of people were stranded on the highway in the Texas evacuation when Rita hit. Had Rita hit that area as hard as Katrina hit Louisiana and Alabama, and had the local topography been the same, the loss of life would have been horrendous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:41 PM Carol C, you sound as if you were there. What was your location? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM Sounds like I was where, Texas? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:09 PM I suppose it doesn't really matter where you're talking about. GUEST,A, I didn't need to be there because I have magical powers. For the uninitiated, we call these magical powers "reading". With the magical power of "reading", I can learn the contents of other people's minds and understand things from their perspective. In this context, I have used my magical powers of reading to learn the contents of the minds of people who were there. And that is how I learned what I know about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM Perfessor Squarepants did you hear that Blanko is gettin' rolled under da bus? Is it to late to include it in this class http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-10-blanco-recall_x.htm ... Kat Landry, who filed a recall petition with state elections officials, said Louisiana needs new leadership to recover from the storms' back-to-back blows. "What we have seen in the past few months is a lack of leadership, a lack of communication, a lack of understanding of how to get things done," Landry said. In Louisiana, getting a recall on the ballot requires petition signatures from at least one-third of the state's registered voters, or about 900,000 people, in 180 days, according to Jennifer Marusak of the secretary of state's office.... Maybe we should all go down there on a field trip and beat up on people so they won't sign that pertiton, Al-Qaeda style. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM Just as I did, CarolC, though I must admit that with lexdeia sometimes it can be a chore but I originally challenged one of these Bush-heads to name any Bush policy that they felt all warm and fuzzy defending and so they, NOT ME, chose Bush's Katrina policy/action.... So I went on a reading spree... It ain't hard to research stuff with Google... A couple hours and opne can have a purdy good grasp of an issue... And the nice thing about Google is that you get cross-sectional perspectives... So that's what I did for an entire evening and I ran off copies of stuff, much like I would have done doing a term aper in college except bnot having to write out the index cards... And then I proposed my argument and here we are zeroing on 200 posts to thwei thread and not one Bushite has been able to crack my original argument... I nmean, lets look at the latest... GUEST-G says that the feds aren't up to the task of handling disasters "1000 miles away"???? I know, where's the logic in this... If it's Bush' hjob to connect the dots and "protect the American people" then he cann't put in any fine print on location... What if the terrorists had hit New Orleans, GUEST G??? "Well, gee, we're real sorry about that, Governor, but it's out of our delivery radius..." See what I've had to put up with, CarolC??? Ahhhhh, just fir the record, GUEST, G-zer... If Bush found Iraq, I'm sure he could find New Orleans.... Now who wants to be 200... Leadfingers??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM Maybe we should all go down there on a field trip and beat up on people so they won't sign that pertiton, Al-Qaeda style. You can if you want to, but personally, I don't think that will accomplish much of anything. Even if Blanco goes, we'll still be stuck with the DHS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM Well, looks like I beat leadfingers to it... Sorry, pal... Now as fir the Quackster's last post.... Ahhhh, like what does this have to do with this discussion... You are hell-bent on shifting the blame anywhere but where is belongs... I couldn't care less if they recall Blanko... She has nothing to do with the argument I have presented and you, to dat, have not provided anything other than smoke in rebuttal to my orignal argument... For the 10th time... Who gives a rat's ass about Blanko... She has nothing to do with the ordering the Secretary of DHS to order FEMA to act... She ain't the friggin' president, the last I looked... Go back and review yer lessons, Duck... I tried to bring it way down to readable for you Bush faithfuls... I din't use no big words to confuseart you 'er nuthin yet you still seem confused... Professor Squarepants |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM Truth bounces off of Spongebobert squarepanties like bullets off of Superman. Here he sits in the garden spot of America preaching to his disciples about what goes on in New Orleans. Looks like some people at ground zero know a few things he don't. I heard from an impeccable source that state and local authorities are the first responders. Calling all cars, calling all cars. Now hear this. Send us every thing you have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM Impeachable source? Sounds about right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:12 PM More qucking from the "quack gallery"... The old if-you-haven't-been-there-you-can't-possibly-know-anything-about-it argument.... So, I ask the Duck if he/she thinks the moon exists and the Duck says, Sure it does"... So using Quack-logic I say "Well, have you been there, Duck?' "Well, no, I haven't" quacks the quaster... ...to which I reply in quack-logic, "Then it must not exist if you haven't been there..." You stickin' with this game plan, Duck??? The Teach |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,A Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM Geoduck, just let it go - you will never convince the likes of Carol and Bobert about anything. I have been trying to get bobert to come up with some real facts but he just can't do it. He doesn't have a clue as to how far off base he is. I guess in some repects I was baiting him but Lord knows I gave him every opportunity to redeem himself. Bobert, you friggin' moron, go back and read the posts. I was there before the dam'n winds died down, had to wait to move into the outskirts of New Orleans and watch the local/ state governments prevent the Red Cross from doing their job. The Salvation Army managed to get some relief supplies into the dome before the Govenrnor said "no, we don't want more people to come here. If they find out we have all this stuff, they will just keep showing up." Bobert, you are one blind, hateful individual who does his dam'ndest to make others think you are Mr. Right. You are such a phoney and are so blind to the truth. I bid you farewell, you are not worth the time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM Yes I have been there several times. I ate the beignets sitting at a sticky table in the in the Cafe Du Monde. Went to the French Quarter market. I strolled the levee and Riverwalk. I rode the street cars. I rode in an antique Rolls with a police escort (just grease a few palms) when my daughter got married in an old mansion down there. Attended a private crawfish boil. I drank Turbodog beer. I ate Cajun food in a famous restaurant with the squeeze boxes and Cajun dancing. I been to the zoo. I saw all of the poor parts of New Orleans that are like a third world country and like a third world country it is ridden with corruption. I heard second hand about a couple that wanted to open a Curves but they refused to pay bribes. They could not get ther license and lost their ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:56 PM Let's not be too hard on the Ol' Bobster. He is just pissed at Bush for winning and he is trying to use Katrina as a platform for his rant. Time will tell. 'Course, if he would put some Adolph's in his Wildroot Cream Oil he would come around a lot faster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption. FEMA is the responder after the diaster happens. If all the relief supplies are moved in before the problem accurrs, that would result in a bigger cleanup process. The primary thing to do is evacuate the residents in the path of the storm prior to it hitting the area. That is easier accomplished using buses, trains, etc., in the projected path of the Huirricane, not from Federal sites 1000 to 2000 miles away. Can you say "travel time?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption. This statement makes me very skeptical of your assertions that you were there shortly after the storm hit. If you're 10 miles away with all of the communication lines down and most of the roads impassable, for all practical purposes, you might as well be a thousand miles away in terms of how effective you can be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM Oops. My mistake. That was the other alphabet GUEST who made that assertion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM BTW, the number of busses they had wouldn't have been enough to evacuate more than a fraction of the number of people who didn't have their own transportation. Amtrak is owned and operated by the federal government. The Louisiana National Guard might have been able to do the job, but most of the equipment they would have needed for that job was in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM Carol C, they could have least tried a little harder - and I will concede the fact that many citizens said "Hell no, I won't go!" Their welfare checks were coming in a few days. How many city/school buses did they have available? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM How do you know they didn't Guest,G? The fact is, they made a decision that was the best they could do under the circumstances. They could have used one bus to take a few people out of New Orleans altogether, or they could use that same bus to make multiple trips to get a much larger number of people from their homes to the nearest emergency shelter. They chose to help the greater number of people in getting to the emergency shelters. That was the best decision they could have made under the circumstances. And they did have provisions for about 48 hours at those locations. Things didn't start to get desperate at those shelters until after a couple of days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:18 PM Perfesser Pink Pants. Here is all the information you need for this class and from your favorite left wing rag to boot: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html "...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined." So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Marion Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml "It was at that point, Blanco said, that she realized she had made a critical error. "I assumed that FEMA had staged their buses in near proximity",.... ....Brown said that, on the day before the storm hit, he asked Blanco and Maj. Gen. Bennett Landreneau, head of the state's National Guard, what resources they needed. "The response was like, 'Let us find out,' and then I never received specific requests for specific things that needed doing," Brown told The New York Times last week. Blanco said it shouldn't have been up to her to provide a list. "Specific things, my God," she said. "(If) they didn't know that we were in the middle of search and rescue and needed to evacuate people, then they were not on the ground with us. We needed buses and helicopters... Two days later (Thursday), President George W. Bush met with Blanco on Air Force One and asked her for control of the troops that were finally pouring into the state. Blanco asked if Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour would be under the same regime. The answer was "No." Blanco told Bush she'd get back to him in 24 hours. The president didn't wait. That night, the White House faxed a memorandum of understanding for her to sign to cede control of the troops. Her answer was "No." "If I thought that it was going to bring one more resource to bear, if I thought that he was denying me resource because of it, and I don't think he was, then it might have been something that I would have considered," she said....." |
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Subject: Lyr Add: CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (Steve Goodman) From: GUEST,Wiggy Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (Steve Goodman) As recorded by Steve Goodman on "Steve Goodman" (1971) 1. Ridin' on the City of New Orleans, Illinois Central, Monday mornin' rail, There are fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders, Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail. They're all out on the southbound odyssey, And the train pulls out o' Kankakee, Rolls along past houses, farms, and fields, Passin' towns that have no name, And freight yards full of old black men, And the graveyards of rusted automobiles. Singin': Good mornin', America; how are you? Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son. Yes, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans, And I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done. 2. And I was dealin' cards with the old men in the club car, And it's penny a point; there ain't no one keepin' score. Won't you pass that paper bag that holds that bottle? You can feel the wheels grumblin' through the floor. And the sons of Pullman porters, the sons of engineers, They ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steam; And mothers with their babes asleep go rockin' to the gentle beat. The rhythm of the rails is all they dream. Just a-singin': Good mornin', America; how are you? Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son. And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans. I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done. 3. Night time on the City of New Orleans, Changin' cars in Memphis, Tennessee, It's halfway home; we'll be there by mornin', Through the Mississippi darkness rollin' to the sea. And all the towns and people seem to fade into a bad dream. The old steel rail, it ain't heard the news. The conductor sings his song again. It's "Passengers Will Please Refrain." This train's got the disappearin' railroad blues. Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you? Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son. And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans. I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done. Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you? Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son. Well, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans, And I'll be gone a long, long time when day is done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:36 PM That ghost train makes a pretty good rallying cry for people who care more about partisan politics than they do about people. But that train would not have solved the problem. And Blanco was right about deciding to not cede control of the Louisiana troops. There was absolutely no reason for Bush to ask her to do so. And if he did withhold support to Louisiana because she did not cede control of the troops, he did it for political reasons, and he is directly responsible for any problems arising from that political ploy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:47 PM The train is one small example of the gross ineptitude of the local Government. And how does it relate to partisan politics except that you want to block out any evidence of mistakes by the local governmnet and concentrate on QWB whom you hate for winning the electiuon? Do you know what Posse Comitatus is? "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." The Gov has to authorise it or it is uncostitutional for federal troops to enforce the law. Dis she do it? No she kept saying "24 hours" finally before the 24 hours was up Bush faxed something for her to sign to cede control to the feds as per the law requires. If Bush had done it as you said he should, you would be demandinq that he be sent to jail for two years. "We need everything you've got" is not authorisation for anything. Brownie even asked personally and specifically what they needed and never got an answer. Why not drop the mental baggage and make a fresh start? What one thing would have solved the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 04:55 PM Yes, I know what Posse Comitatus is. And it had zero application in this situation. Your comment about it is a red herring. The Louisiana National Guard should have been used for law inforcement purposes, and National Guard from other states and other US forces should have been used for non-law enforcement kinds of support. Bush wants to make Posse Comitatus an issue in this context because he's a big government, more power for the executive branch kind of guy. He wanted to use it to enlarge the government, and his power. And he wanted to further erode states' rights. That's why he's a radical and not a conservative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM Without using your bias and prejudice explain why and how PC does not apply? Back it up with some facts like the actual text from the law. All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything. Does the words "I don't know what day it is" convey a sense of leadership and responsibility? You assume any charges made of a Democrat are politicaly motivated. If Democrats never make mistakes or do anything wrong, that might apply most of the time but some times they do apply. I think in this case the local government is shifting to blame to the federal government. You are like some people that yell racist any and everytime a black person is accused of something. Is it possible that some black people do something wrong once in a while? If somebody yells racist every time, how can thay be punished when they do something wrong? Now you can proceed with your rant on me being a racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM Posse Comitatus forbids the US (federal) forces for being used in a law enforcement capacity. It wasn't necessary for federal forces to be used in a law enforcement capacity in Louisiana. As I said before, they could, and should have been used in a non-law enforcement capacity while the state forces (Louisiana National Guard) were used in a law enforcement capacity. This is what the United States Coast Guard site has to say about it. I assume you will accept that they don't have a "bias" in this regard. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html "'POSSE COMITATUS ACT' (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to 'execute the laws' except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement. Had I been in Governor Blanco's shoes at that particular moment in history, I might not have known what day it was either. And you are a clown. But not the good kind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM CarolC, Warning: They are trying to suck you into the details because they have no asnwer to the more fundamental question of why, especially after 9/11, the Bush administartion blinked when the chips were down... But beyond Bush blinking there is a larger question of whether or not the Bush adminstartion, since it doesn't like outside opinions and loves to operate in secret, had taken steps to "protect American citizens... In demoting and gutting FEMA, it's no surprise that FEMA, even though it wasn't ordered into the fray way too late, came up short on organization, communication and product...I can't help that a 90's FEMA would have been more up to the task... This is Bush's fault... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:09 PM All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything. She did ask. And she worded her request according to how such requests are supposed to be worded. Peace has posted dozens of links to the exact wording of her request in the many other threads on this subject. I'll try to find one of them for you when I get a chance. It's ok, Bobert. I think people ought to know the extent to which Bush has hoodwinked people who consider themselves to be "conservative" into believing he is one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:49 PM Okay, CarolC.... You pound 'um low and I'll pound 'um high... 'er vice versa... Anyway, one thing fir sure is that that ain't gonna get away with their usual proclaimations and sandbaggin'... One thing that i8s becoming increasingly evdient to me, however, and that is that these folks will pull any trick outta the bag... Must be nice to have the corporate big boys throwing tens upon millions into the rightie blogs to give these folks their talking points... Problem is when the corporations are late to the battle as in this thread cause here we are with well over 200 posts and I have yet to have one trespond directly to the original arguments that I offered in thes thread... Yeah, I've been called a lot of names whcih is their usaul stall tactics when the corporate apologist haven't gotten the talkin' points to these GUEST's and so they use the name calling and attacks on me as a stall tactic... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM The New Orleans Commission to seek overhaul..., has called on authorities to close the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet, a shortcut for shipping from the River to the coast which cuts through a corner of the City. This outlet was a major source of the water which flooded the eastern, predominantly Black half of the City (Orleans Parish) when the storm surge roared up from the Gulf Coast. As a shipping route, the Federal government authorities are responsible for the Outlet. Local authorities have reached a consensus that it should be closed; opened in the 1960's, for years it has been little used and serves as a conduit for destructive saltwater into freshwater wetlands. Port of New Orleans authorities object to closure, and may be supported by federal authorities. See New York Times, article by Gary Devlin, January 11, 2006, 'New Orleans Commission....' The Navigation Canal levee failures was responsible for the rest of the water entering the Ninth Ward and adjacent areas of Orleans Parish. This Canal also is the responsibility of the Federal government. Blame is thrown on City authorities for failure to use buses, but licensed drivers could not be found, and the worst hit areas of Metro could not be reached. The so-called ghost train could have helped a few hundred in its neighborhood, providing that timing was satisfactory, a point in dispute, and it was not accessible to those who needed evacuation most. People who do not know the situation look on New Orleans as a City under unified control, which it is not. Slightly more than half the citizens of Metro New Orleans live (lived) outside of the City boundaries, and are subject to the governments of adjacent cities, and the authorities of Jefferson and Orleans Parishes. The closure of the bridge to Gretna, across the River and a city only slightly affected by water, was effected by Gretna and Jefferson Parish authorities. The City of Kenner, between New Orleans and the Airport, refused shelters. The City has no authority in these and other suburban 'cities', although no boundaries are discernable. The Governor is similarly handicapped because of the deep chasm between the politicians of the northern part of the State and the region around New Orleans. Decisions on major waterways are Federal, and he finds himself largely in an advisory position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:34 PM Thank you, Q, for this informative post... Yeah, the Bush apologists here like neat little pigeon holes in which to shift the blame... Ain't that easy... Hey, it was the Bush administartion, after 9/11 that said "We are on the case..." Yeah, Bush loved to pump out his chest and proclaim "My job is to protect the American people".... Problem is that when we look closely at Bush's actual performance he was too busy fleecing the middle class by redistributing wealth toward the wealthy and away from the middle class to be too engaged in really working towrad protecting America from much of anything... In demoting FEMA, he actually made Americans less safe??? The evidence is in one this one... The only folks who can't accept this are the most "true beleivin' Bush brownshirts"... And here we are some 5 months later and what we are seeing is no real well defined federal response???? Maybe Bush hasn't been told he is no longer the Governor of Texas but President of the United States... Or maybe they have but them pretzels jst keep it from sinkin' in... Or maybe, ahhhh, there's little for which it to sink into??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM I ain't Q or A or G If the National Guard from other states goes into New Orleans with all the snipers around, they need to defend themselves. They need to be turned over and put under local control using the correct protocol or they are not able to legaly shoot back or arrest anybody shooting at them. That would be inforcing the law. And what was wrong with making the request? What was so hard about it? Just some stupid political reason that cost people their lives. Anybody that can't itemize what they need is not worthy of cooking breakfast much less running a state. Nobody is refuting the stuff that Marion dug up so it must all be true. As a sidebar: "A former political aid to William Jefferson (D-LA), Brett Pfeffer, 37, pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting bribery of a public official and conspiracy. Pfeffer faces 20 years in federal prison for his part in collecting bribes in exchange for Jefferson's help in promoting a pair of business deals in Africa, according to court documents filed Wednesday." http://www.axcessnews.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=7562 Nah. No corruption in Louisianna and definately no corruption by Democrats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM Snipers, Duck????? Oh, Fox never got around to retracting the "Snipers Lie"... This explains alot about where you are coming from. Fox ain't news... It is propaganda... Snipers, Duck??? You must be one of about 10 people left in the world that doen't know that story was debunked months ago... I am disappoined in you... I thought you might be a worthy advesary but if yer entire universe is defined by Fox propaganda and lies then I will have to reconsider yer application... However, I will keep it on file... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geo duck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM You are suffering from Bobertosis Blindicus Termunus: "NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire" twice. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/ NPR: "The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings."http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774 La Times: "Snipers fire on rescue efforts, and corpses litter public areas as rage builds among refugees.." http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/890812981.html?dids=890812981:890812981&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+2%2C+2005&author=Ellen+Barry%2C+Scott+Gold+and+Stephen+Braun&pub=Los+Angeles&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=IN+KATRINA%27S+AFTERMATH%3A+CHAOS+AND+SURVIVAL Are you talking about one incident on a certain bridge? "But nearly three months later — and after repeated revisions of the official account of the incident and a lowering of the death toll to two — authorities said they were still trying to reconstruct what happened Sept. 4 on the Danziger Bridge. And on the city's east side, where the shootings occurred, two families that suffered casualties are preparing to come forward with stories radically different from those told by police." http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/251105sniperincident.htm Well how about the others? Does the LA Times, CNN and NPR watch Fox and repeat what they say? Oh Class, Class, Please be quiet. Perfesser Spongebobert has an announcementto make: "There were no snipers in New orleans. That was propaganda spread by Fox News. Pay no attention to that man behind the screen. Now let us continue with our anti-Bush agenda" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:52 PM Problem is that all these links are dated, Duck.... Yeah, at the time, there were all kinmds of reports, 99% now debunked.... You are running old crap here, pal... Get with the here and now.... Old lies are nuthin more than that: old lies, or mis-whatevers... Don't matter much... Old (and badly reprorted) ews that ain'ty got any base of reaslity is just another lie in the big scheme of things... Hey, what if I say that duck is messing with ltttle boys??? And like a few folks say that, yeah, du7ck is messin' with little boys and then it tunrns out that duck ain't messin' with little boys but only a few of the folks who said he/she is retratced their claims??? Then to hald the fols out there you still messin' with little boys.... This is exactly what has happened with the "sniper story"... I have heard doctors on non-Fox networks saying the story was false... Hey, these dotor would have known since they were the folks who were suupposedly being fired on... This is nuthin' more than racist mythology!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:12 PM Geoduck, you're just looking for an opportunity to get a few Democrats out of the government. You don't give a poop about actually solving any problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM The "snipers" were actually people who were shooting guns into the air to get the attention of rescuers so the rescuers would know they were there. They were not shooting at rescue vehicles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:23 PM Getting the incomptent people out of the local government would be a start. Now where are your solutions? If the snipers were debunked, Show me. Otherwise it is your opinion and not based on Fact, and show me where Fox is responsible. No facts, no credibility. You just like to hear your self say it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM Getting rid of the local people and not doing anything about the incompetence at the top levels accomplishes nothing. Here is the Snopes.com debunking of many of the lies and distortions that you have allowed yourself to be duped by... http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp I'm still looking for the text of Blanco's request. But here is the president's response to Blanco's request... http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html "The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing. The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn. Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding." Bush clearly states that FEMA has the job of determining what is needed, and then providing it. So if things that are needed are not provided, and since it was FEMA's responsibility to make sure that the "resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency" are provided, then responsibility for any inadequacies is the fault of FEMA. My suggestions are the same as those of local and national disaster planners all over the US. Take FEMA back out of the DHS. Make the FEMA directorship a cabinet level position, answerable only to the president. Restore the funding that the Bush administration cut from FEMA's budget. Appoint and hire people for FEMA based on qualifications, and eliminate the practice of cronyistic appointments and hiring practices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM No creditable news agency found support for the reports of widespread sniping. The Guard killed two snipers, effectively stopping the handful of snipers who tried to take advantage of the situation. Right-wing bigoted bloggers are responsible for most of the garbage reports, and irresponsible repeaters of the garbage (read Geoduck) are not worthy of consideration. News today: The NO Times-Picayune reports that The U. S. Army Corps of Engineers are going to install temporary gates to close off the canals in NO, and are importing stronger clay from the Gulf to build up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet Canallevees in St. Bernard Parish before the nest hurricane season. A 219 page report by the Corps of Engineers interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force outlines investigations into widespread levee failures. The federal government may be taking first steps to correct past failures. The American Society of Civil Engineers is acting as a consultant. Pumps will still be inadequate by mid-summer, but it is hoped that the flood gates will keep surge and waves out of the Canal. We can only hope that another major hurricane doesn't hit the area next hurricane season. Congress must approve the plans, however, before work can start by the Corps. The three gates could cost $105 million, peanuts compared to the $2 trillion plus wasted in the stupid efforts in Iraq. See www.nola.com, articles from the Times-Picayune, Nov. 11, 2006. The Interagency Performance Evaluation Team is conducting 'dozens' of evaluations of the failures of levees and levee walls. We can only hope that some action results from their efforts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM Excuses, ctirticism, finger pointing and nothing constructive. The only specific, credible sniper debunking I can find is about an incident one bridge. The rest are general "mainstream Media lied" with no specifics. Nothing indicating Fox was the culprit. Bobert You are so unconvcining I wonder how you even convince yourself. Just a bunch of knowitalls with an agenda. Will the people at ground zero get enough signatures for recall? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM Here's an article that debunks many of the reports of snipers shooting at rescue personnel, and most of the rest of them have yet to be substantiated... http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12801034.htm I got the information in my previous post from seeing interviews of people who were there at the time, stranded on rooftops waiting to be rescued. They said they did not witness anyone shooting at rescue personnel, but they did see people shooting in the air in order to alert rescue personnel to their presence and their need to be rescued. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:40 AM Politics are heating up. Republicans have launched a petition to recall Governor Blanco. Recall petitions must be signed by at least one-third of the State's 2.8 million voters in 180 days in order to force an election, an outcome which is highly unlikely. The move will further polarize an already strongly divided electorate. The Baton Rouge Advocate: www.2theadvocate.com/news/2180962.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:43 AM Nothing constructive? See my 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM post, Gooeyduck. It's far more constructive than anything you've posted so far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM Carol C, yes, your 12:19 post is informative and it is unfortunate you and bobert fail to realize the main thrust of it. ".....FEMA, to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the effect of alleviating hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local populatiom......." The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you? I will give you credit, Carol C, for your research efforts unlike that other fellow who simply pooh-poohs actual facts offered by others. My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land." I remember seeing pictures of hundreds, after Katrina, sitting in their parking areas under water. Oh, one other thing, it was mentioned that hundreds od mobile homes, RVs, etc. are sitting empty around New Orleans because the city government can't decide where to place them. A'NIMBY" scenario I guess. Much was made of them being delivered without keys which is easily solved by a 5# hammer but no one is commenting on the thousands of displaced people living hundreds or thousands of miles away who can not return due to the lack of decision making by local government. Ah yes, the inability to make decisions within that area continue, four months after the diaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:43 AM Everything I have stated related to FEMA's inaction and snipers has been backed up my CarolC's research so go ahead and attack me if you don't like my sty7le but behind it you'll find my arguments based on facts... Is folks like the Duck who, even after being presented with evidence that the sniping didn't happen, who continue to tell the story as if it did... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM No attack from me, bobert. Paranoia on your part? What I can ascertain is you make a bunch of statements early on, pronounce them as gospel, and then continue to ignore the ongoing comments of others. Any comments on the hundreds of buses left sitting proir to Katrina hitting land or the mobile homes sitting unoccupied while local government continues to demonstrate its' inability for decision making? Or, are some of the acusations made four months ago about the NO/LA governments' lack of performance perhaps being proven out by the ongoing indecisiveness? Hmmnn? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM My My that is constructive. Reverse the things demanded by the Democrats. Now what should be done in New Orleans? Perfesser squarebob. CC says there were a "handful of snipers" Does that make you a liar? She blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused. CC also seems to be blaming the absence of flood gates on the stingy administration when local "Activists" like you and her down there sucessfully blocked building floodgates that were supposed to be built in the 60's for peanuts compared to what they will cost now. Is that true? Why is the electorate down there strongly divided? What are they divided about? Why do things keep disapearing off of the louisiana.gov website like their plans for a disaster and Blanco's supposed official request for a state of emergency while Fed government docs are still there? C'mon now, we need an ejucation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Al Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM Times-Picayune's articles make clear that throughout much of the 1990s, officials in Louisiana couldn't come up with state money needed to match federal funds. The resignation of Rep. Bob Livingston in December 1998 didn't help. (Livingston was chairman of the House Appropriations Committee; federal funding for flood control projects was one of his pet projects.) Nor did environmental laws, such as the Migratory Bird Act of 1918. (Construction on a hurricane protection levee in St. Charles Parish was halted for months because a great egret nesting area sat in the levee's path.) "The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM Snopes is not a "blog", goeyduck. It's a debunking site. That's wehre people use actual documentation and quotes from live people to debunk the BS that gets spread around in blogs and email chains. And its a website devoted to debunking urban legends, which is what that garbage about people shooting at rescur workers really is... an urban legend. I'll respond to more later when I have more time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you? No, I think that's quite a fallacious assumption. Moving temporary housing ahead of the storm obviously doesn't make sense. But it's a red herring to suggest that FEMA did the best job it could to get supplies in. Walmart was able to get supplies in before FEMA did. And in many instances, when people did get supplies in, FEMA turned them away. I have seen the numbers on this, but it's going to take some effort to track them down. I don't have time right now, so I'll work on that later. But from the numbers I saw, there weren't anywhere near enough school buses to make much of a difference in the numbers of people left behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM My second paragraph in my last post was in response to this: My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:11 PM Carol C, this post of mine is probably not too important but it demonstrates my tenacity for accuracy. There are three groups of defiinitions for "blog". Allow me to quote one of the most common ones; * noun: a shared on-line journal...... I have never heard the term "debunking site". Nor is it listed as such in any Dictionary or obtainable thru a "Google" search. You can, however, locate sites that deal with "Urban Legends". It is my opinion that Hurricane Katrina and its' subsequent aftermath does fall under that catagory. Snopes has close to 7000 registered members which to equates to a sharing process. If one would contemplate this site as a separate entity, it would suggest that Snopes is not much different than this thread. Which is a collection of people, most often reading what they want to read, and using that information to try to convince others of its' authenticity |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:21 PM Okay, one thing at a time is fair. I really would like to see the numbers on the buses. The aerial views of bus parking showed hundres, still sitting there but now submerged. You did give a response but not an answer. And I was not being facetious, not getting in ahead of the storm has been a point directed against the Feds. (read GWB) Someone will still have to show me where FEMA turned away supplies from, say, Mississippi. And, Walmart had stores in the storm stricken area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM A blog is a weblog. An online diary. Snopes is not a blog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM GUEST,G, you should read the other threads on Katrina. There were supplies turned away in Mississippi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM Gung-ho Bush on tour and giving speeches on how wonderful things will be after Miss-NO rebuilt. He doesn't mention that Congress must vote the cash. Until they do, his campaign promises are bushwah. His talk of 'big help' coming in just sounds like Halliburton et al. will get more billions. Whether this will happen or the money bills will get drowned in congressional committee piss is not yet known. Meanwhile Guest G et al. continues to mouth the fiction that the people of New Orleans are crooks, gamblers, shooters liars and thieves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM Thank you, Q and CarolC.... I'm in the middle of a large project... Actually several and don't have much pudder time these days for Googling up stuff but with these GUEST's it's almost a full time jib searching out the facts to combat their mythogies... Ummmmmm, now I guess it was the Duck who asked what I would do now and that's a fair question and I will respond with a 10 point program in a little while... Gotta got do some sanding, apply some more mud, etc... Professor Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a blog to me Suspect Device Blog The Rectal Foreign Body in the X-Ray of Louisiana Politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM What's your point, Gooeyduck? I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts. I just said that Snopes is not a blog. From Gooeyduck... She (CarolC) blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused. Please show me where I have done any of these things. Yes, I agree. You are confused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM Okay, her we go... 1. Seein' as that problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it, Bush and his gang are outta the deal. Yes, he needs to remove his asdminstartion from the process of the plan to rebuild the Gulf Coast... (More on this later...) 2. The Army of Corps of Engineers, before the first thing is built inside the worst areas needs to rebuild the leves to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane... Not not a 4! (Actually, I have recently heard that by the time Katrina hit N.O. it was a Cat 3??? And di this musch damage???) So, rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5... 3. Turn the Justice Departemnt loose on the insurance industry which has taken a run-out-the-clock attitude on paying claims... Yeah, haul a couple COE's into jailand that outta get them playing nice. 4. Provide national "gap insurance" to any "home owner" who lived in their own home that covers the difference between wheat the weiel insurance companies will pay to rebuild and what it will take to rebuild. 5. BUT, and this is the all important "but", before folks start rebuilding, hold a redevelopement/redesign charette... Now, I ain't talking about a few old folks from the hood witha room full of slick talking planners... That ain't a charette, its an ambush... And it's going to take some national public serice announcements to let folks who either have relocated or can't make it back to appoint proxies to represent their interests... 6. Offer a major prize for a national competition of various engineering schools to find a way to build entire blocks on barges that can't be seen in the case of flooding where entire blockes, trees, shrubs and Rover's dog house i tha back yard can raise with flood level... (Yeah, I know this seems to contradict my #1 but, hey, it's worth a looksie just in case the Army Corps screws up... 7. Look toward public/private partnerships in ares were a complete redevelopemt might be possible. If these areas are to be rebuilt with vision there will be these pockets that weill open up and so be prepared to negotiate with the private sector for thier redevelopment... Lotta creative ways to "share" sapce. 8. Offer tax incentives (local, state and federal) for investement in the rebuilding of centers that bring back the cultureal aspects of the area. And on the fedral level, like community block grant programs to assit in amtching funds for such rebuilding. 9. Hold as a goal a mix racial mix in these ares that is no greater than 10% different than before Katrina. 10. Lastly, and this is perahps the hardest and it is the area of finacing. Given that this area is so important to the domestic oil industry, that rebuilding will be partially paid for by the oil industry. Hey, they beed folks there to work so they can throw a few peas in the pot. These two states don't have extra revenues so reality being just that, I would propose that tyhr Bush administration roll back it's tax cuts incrimentally and that a portion go toward rebuilding the Gulf Coast... Thrwo in the public/private partnerships in many areas and the bills get paid. There, that's Bobert's "Ten Point Plan" Unlike the Bushites here, I ain't afraid to throw out some ideas... Sure, I expect them to start taking shots. Fine, shoot away but not if you don't have the balls to put forth yer "10 point" plans... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM Go take care of your drywall Bobert. Ever try Durabond? Now I want to know about the snipers. I see that there were widespread reports of snipers and the word spread like wildfire. It caused several rescues and supply deliveries to be halted. Blaming it on one news source is not logical because they are all out there trying to out scoop the others. One doctor said he heard shots and heard the bullets hitting nearby. If I was there that would convince me and have me running for cover. Nobody can confirm anything and it has been attributed to the "Fog of War" or the equivalent of the fog of a disaster. However if federal troops are to be put on the ground they need to be authorized to defend themselves with force and make arrests if necessary snipers or not. That is not legal under Posse Comitatus unless it is requested with the proper protocall. I would not send soldiers anywhere where they cannot defend themselves legally. I have never said everybody in New Orleans is a crook but I am under the impression that the government and the police force is corrupt to a certain extent. Not as much as a third world country but certainly more that most large southern cities like Atlanta or Mobile. If I am wrong, lay it on me but it should come from sombody who really knows and not some carpetbagger that has never been to NO or experienced a hurricane. Now about the 1960's flood gates. The GAO has said they would have done more harm than good. I find that hard to believe but I guess thay know more than I do. However Blanko was in the Netherlands studying their levee and floodgate system, I suppose that if floodgates are proposed now, they will be termed an absolute necessity instead of harmful. They could hire contractors from the Netherlands and they would probably do a good job. They built the Palm Islands off of Dubai and they are working on World Island and a third Palm Island bigger than the other two put together. It is the most amazing thing I have ever seen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM Danged good idea, O-Guy.... If there's any folks in the world that understand flood plain it the Dutch... Get a few Dutch engineerrs to the charette... As fir the snipers, O-Guy... Seems the more we look at the reports the less likely it is that anyone was shooting a doctors... Yeah, I was in Missisisppi during Katrina doing some recording at a buds house and that's all he listened to was Fox Mythology Network and they repeated ther snipping story over and over lie it was the ***only*** story associated with Katrina???? No wonder, fir those who only listen to FOx, whcih is the most partisan news ( if you can call it taht) station in American that one might come out still elieving that folks were shooting at doctors... And please, CarolC has provides ample links, don't do the juvinilistic "prove it" bullsh*t on me... Heck, I'm still hjaving problems with the Philosophy 201 "prove you exist" question to be bothered with stuff that CarolC has allready taken care of here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:04 AM Bush boasted today that $85 billion has been approved for the region but only $25 billion had been spent. Beyond saying the federal government "had a great role to play," he didn't say much, certainly nothing of substance. Just who approved the $85 billion?- or has it been approved? Is he just woofin'? And just what has been approved for the Corps of Engineers to build the levees, walls and flood gates? Certainly we know of no unified plans, let alone a timetable. Wonder what the waste factor is on the money spent so far, and how much went to Halliburton and subsidiaries. If the 'billions' are there, and if the levees and flood controls were built with the 'billions' to level 5, money would start to flow from the private sector. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:16 AM Q, I meant no such thing concerning the citizens of New Orleans. (with the possible of exception of some government official and their cronies) Now, where did I say that? Carol C, I will go with the Dictionary definition of 'blog' And, as normal, questions going unanswered and BS being introduced. No comments on the 100s of mobile homes and RVs standing empty due to the local government continuing their practice of indecisiveness?????? The same people that ignore this are the ones who are complaining because some hotels want to return to a sense of normalcy and need their rooms back for tourists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:24 AM By the way Caro, your assuming how things were around NO - "roads impassable" - are just that, assumptions. The wind damage in NO was not the problem, flooding was. I think 'A' was there as I have an aquaintance who was there at the same time and he says wind damage, i.e., trees down, etc., was minimal. To the east was the wind damage, well, not damage really, he said "stuff" just disappeared. (Gulport, Bay St. Louis, etc.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM No, they're not assumptions. I am repeating what I read from people who were there. Especially people who were responsible for rescue and other emergency purposes. Flooding has a tendency to make roads impassible (for road type vehicles), don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM You're not a big fan of thinking things through, are you GUEST,G? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM Here are some definitions for the word "blog" (much more detailed definitions than what can be found in a dictionary)... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog "A blog is a website in which journal entries are posted on a regular basis and displayed in reverse chronological order. The term blog is a shortened form of weblog or web log." http://www.marketingterms.com/dictionary/blog/ "A frequent, chronological publication of personal thoughts and Web links." http://www.blogscanada.ca/BlogDefinition.html "So what is a weblog, anyway? Generally speaking, it's an online journal comprised of links and postings in reverse chronological order, meaning the most recent posting appears at the top of the page. As Meg Hourihan, co-founder of Pyra Labs, the blogging software company acquired by Google in February 2003, has noted, weblogs are �post-centric� -- the posting is the key unit -- rather than �page-centric,� as with more traditional websites. Weblogs typically link to other websites and blog postings, and many allow readers to comment on the original post, thereby allowing audience discussions." http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214616,00.html "On the Internet, a blog (short for weblog) is a personal journal that is frequently updated and intended for general public consumption." The necessary requirements to make a website a "blog" are that it be, A. A journal Snopes is not a journal. B. Chronological (reverse) Snopes in not chronoligical in any way. C. Has multiple entries per page Snopes has one entry per page. And because it's not a journal, it doesn't follow a journal format. It is an informational site that has a separate page for each diffferent "urban myth" that it is either debunking or validating. Personally, I don't have a problem with blogs (Gooeyduck's bizarre accusations notwithstanding). I tend to avoid using them as my only documentation or support for an argument, but I will sometimes use them together with other sources if I think it is reasonable to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM Okay Carol, okay - call it what you want and I will go with my concept. Now that is settled, your comment of me "not thinking things through" is a puzzlement. You say you are repeating things that "I have read from people who were there." Well good for you - since I don't trust most of the sensationalized reports in the media, I only repeat what I have personally been TOLD by people 'who were there'. Best I can do. And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected. Opening a road after a tornado, which I have helped with, is not that big of a deal. Tractors, trucks and cables work very well and very quickly. However, around the outskirts of NO, this was not the case. There was not the problem of "impassable roads" or the kid with the school bus would not have made it out of town. With this, you go with your opinions and what you read, I will stick with my accounts from the people who were there. Enough, okay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected The Super Dome is hardly the only area that needed assistance. Most roads in New Orleans were impassible. Some were not. There is no excuse for FEMA's criminal negligence of the people in the Super Dome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM That last should read "criminal neglect" rather than "negligence". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM Number of buses... "According to a September 5, 2003, article in the Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700." Public transit buses were being used to evacuate people. But as I said before, they were being used in the manner that would help the most people under the circumstances... taking them to the nearest emergency shelter. The school buses people saw in neat rows under water in pictures could very well have been the 70 buses that were broken down and not operational. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120009 That article debunks quite a few other falsehoods that are being spread here in this thread. For instance, the stupid accusation that Blanco should have, but didn't ask for specific assistance... "According to the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should immediately begin emergency operations, even in the absence of a clear assessment of the situation. Because a "detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states that "response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment."" On the subject of prepositioning assets... "In fact, a Navy ship -- the USS Bataan -- was "preposition[ed]" off the Louisiana coast ready to aid Katrina victims but was deprived of needed guidance by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), as the Chicago Tribune reported on September 4. Moreover, the Bush administration did not send a hospital ship to New Orleans from Baltimore until four days after the levees were breached. Kelly wrote that the Army Corps of Engineers had by September 10 "begun pumping water out of New Orleans." But James Lee Witt, FEMA director in the Clinton administration, said that both efforts should have happened much sooner: "[I]n the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby."" National Guard... "In fact...according to Department of Defense officials, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour had requested additional Guard personnel before the storm hit. And, as the Associated Press reported on September 3, Blanco accepted an offer for additional troops from New Mexico the day before the hurricane hit, but that help was delayed by paperwork needed from Washington." According to the NRP (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the local government officials did everything they were responsible for under the plan. FEMA before Bush (from the perspective of Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts Jr., whose house was damaged by Hurricane Andrew)... "The day after I crawled from the wreckage of my home in 1992, the Federal Emergency Management Agency was there with water. Shortly thereafter came low-interest loans and other forms of help." And after Bush... "By contrast, a woman who saw me conducting interviews in Bogalusa, La., seven days after Katrina struck marched up and demanded to know if I was, finally, the man from FEMA because her house was split in two and she and her husband and children and grandchildren were sleeping on the porch." _______________ From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi (originally taken from an article in the CNN website, for which the link is now defunct)... "FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said. 'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said. Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added. He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday. 'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'" www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories" We've already covered all of this ground many times in previous threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM I have a few questions for CC: 1 How many hurricanes made landfall in the US in 2005? 2 How many in 1992? 3 How many hit after Bush and before DHS? 4 What did victims of the hurricanes that hit afer Bush and before DHS have to say about DHS? How many Pros vs how many cons? You may have to alter your anti-bush template a little if you want to put things into perspective and find the real truth. After we have exhausted ourselves arguing about that and each of us declaring victory we can move on the the Bush is responsible because of global warming argument. Here are the top 10 hurricanes in US history before Katrina: 1. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1900 2. FLORIDA 1928 3. FLORIDA KEYS 1935 4. HURRICANE AUDREY 1957 5. SOUTHEAST U.S. 1926 6. LOUISIANA 1909 7. ATLANTIC-GULF 1919 8. LOUISIANA 1915 9. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1915 10. NEW ENGLAND 1938 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/hurricanes.topten/intro.html Except for 1957 they were all early 1900s Where was global warming and GWB back then? Could it be that these things run in cycles? Whittle a cyles hole in your template and things come to light like this: http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=286 "The hurricane activity of the next 20 years should resemble the period that began in the late 1920s and lasted through the 1940s. The increase is due to higher salinity content in the Atlantic Ocean, which alters its currents and increases average ocean temperatures, fueling more storms. Gray emphasizes that this is a cyclical trend and has nothing to do with global warming(CNN, April 22, 2000)... .. University of New Mexico scientist Louis Scuderi, studying tree ring data in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado, has identified a 72 year drought cycle in the region according to an AP article of April 29th. The last such drought occurred in the 1950s, leading Scuderi to believe that another is imminent in the 2020s." This dates back to pre-Bush before so it couldn't be biased against Bush. Now do you want to move on to the Kyoto argument? Why should the US be bound by the Kyoto protocol if China is not? What other countries have and haven't signed? Who consumes all this energy in the US anyway? Is it the people? If so why can't they consume less and solve the problem instead of beating the government over the head about their own activites? Witness Barabra Striesand, environmental Activist who travels in private jets and stretch limos ansd is so concerned about air polution and green house gasses. Where do you want to begin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM Here's the text of the letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush. I don't know why it is no longer available in the Louisiana government's website, but it might be because that site is not designed to handle the amount of traffic it gets as a result of keeping that page active... August 27, 2005 The President The White House Washington, D. C. Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209 Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan. Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM Lots of subjects for lots of threads but most have little to do with the subject at hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM Re: your questions, Old Guy, you tell us. Are you so lazy that everyone else has to do all of your work for you? I don't have an anti-Bush bias. I have an anti stupidity bias. Let's get FEMA back the way it was prior to its absorption into the DHS. Don't let your anti-Democrat bias prevent you from supporting changes that will save lives and prevent tragedies like the aftermath of Katrina from happening in the future. And if your reference to global warming was directed at me, please show me where I have said anything at all about global warming and Hurricane Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM Yeah, Q, yer right.... Here we are a month after I argued the point that Bush was reponsible to driopping the ball and messing up the sytem so bad that it couldn't ptrotect the American people and I haven't seen the first real rebuttal to the "FACTS" I included in that arguement... Of sure, I've been called a lotta stuff... People have siad that I won't answer their qustions but that's not my job... This thread is about George Bush and he failed the US people and I have yet to read any Bushite here present a thought out response to my original charge which I sould think mean... ... they don't have one (period)... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM I thought I would give CC the opportunity to present her unassailable facts fo us to marvel at first. I though an expert like CC would have the answers at hand but evidently those answers would embarras her so she declines to answer. In other words another person that won't answer questions. Furthermore when you go to those Lousianna government sites you get a 404 document not found error which means it has been deleted. Also a person that contradicts herself: "I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts." From: CarolC - PM Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM Yeah, great, O-Guy.... Now how about going back to the very first post in this thread and assemble a rebuttal... Bush was the one to give the orders and he flinched... Bush was responsible for backing up his post 9/11 rhetoric about protecting the American people and he failed... These, based on well over 200 posts without a rebuttal to be the strongest evidence that the "gate" belongs behind Katrina... Hey, when any one of the Bushites will mount a rebuttal then you can ask questions of me... Until then, yer just blowing smoke... Debating 101... Rebuttal, then assert an opposing view... UIf you can't rebutt my arguments then you have no right to change the direction of the debate... Any high school debating coach can tell ye that.... And, O-Guy, don't get too smug in dealing with CarolC... You make her mad and she'll take you to the cleaners... Maybe you won't know just what a butt whup she put on yer ol' butt but everyone else will... Better just stick to yer talking points, keep on punching but when you go declaring some kind of victory, this ol' gal gonna hurt you bad... She is easilly the best debater in Mudville... Plus she's mighty purdy which has nuthin' to do with anything... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:55 PM Old Guy... time to get new reading glasses. Either that or get your nurse to read the thread to you. The sentence as it is written in my post reads, "I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts". All anyone who wants to verify that has to do is read the thread. And I have already answered most, if not all of the questions that have been put to me, and provided documentation for all of my assertions. You, on the other hand have done nothing but obfuscate and lie. You're not answering your questions because you don't know the answers. But go ahead and do some research and post your results. And then I will follow along and take them apart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM (thnx bobert) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM See what I mean, O-Guy??? Play nicer with CarolC an' maybe you won't need that nurse... B.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Jan 06 - 03:33 AM I apologise. I have been going too fast and putting wrong things together. However I do wonder why the fact that GWB did not want to have a DHS and then he did not want FEMA to be part of it is glossed over here. He made concessions to the opposing party in an effort to keep the peace and now it is being used against him. Could FEMA have done a better job if it was left alone? Nobody seems to want to answer questions so I will ask them one at a time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:43 AM Well, fir one, it would have been a cabinet level position, Old Guy, which carries a lot more weight than and agency... Second, when it was demoted, it lost alot of it's budget... I don't see this as the DEM's fault but, hey, inspite of their minority status, they are not completely blameless either... The fights the DEM's took up in the establishement of the DHS were related more to labor issues and less about organization... They picked the wrong fight, perhaps, but weren't the one's who had much control of how the organizational chart would end end up looing like... But based on FEMA's track record in the 90's I think it's safe to say that it wasn't as capable when Katrina hit... Added to that, as I have pointed out, Bush and the White House were AWOL in the early going and were late to the battle... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 AM Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG'). Have you given any consideration as to the possibility of someone else knowing a few facts, particulary when they have talked with people who were on scene within 24 hours of Katrina? Reading media reports that we know are "built up" (a reporting term) can be similar to the the 3 blind men offering their explanations as to what an Elephant is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM John Kerry campain ad: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM OG, that won't make any difference because it is still all GWBs fault even though GW could see that FEMA would be buried under a ton of red tape. Facts that are contrary to blaming GW are invalid to those with mindsets. Nice try, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM I don't remember John Kerry recommending that FEMA be gutted... Or even Joe Lieberman... Or Nacy Pelosi... Or Hillary Clinton... Or Edward Kennedy.... Hey, they weren't the ones admitting that the dot hadn't been connected and then promising to do a better job of "protecting the American people" yet seems that most of the annonomous GUEST's here would lay the blame for the poor federal response on anyone other than Bush and his folks??? Hmmmmmmmm??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM Bobert: Perspective means that you stand back and look at the whole picture instead of zeroing in on one small item and magnifying it untill it fills your whole field of vision. Now stand back and view the whole picture. How many hurricanes hit the US compared to previous years? What were their intensity? How did Fema perform in those hurricanes. Look at every factor and make comparisons to previous related incidents and similar incidents elsewhere. You lack this perspective. You go to extremes. Here is an example of your kind of extremisim: Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?! http://www.dickgregory.com/katrina_chronicle.html Pirate News reported that during Gulf War #1, Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire ordered US troops to blow up oil wells in Kuwait and Iraq and blame Iraq, in order to drive up oil prices. Bush, UN Inc and Clinton-Blythe-Rockefeller sanctions and bombings on Iraq have closed sales of 5-cents/gallon Iraq gasoline to USA. Gasoline prices rose 75-cents/gallon in one day in USA after Katrina. John Lee of PirateNews.org reported that Tennessee soldiers from GW#1 confessed they were ordered to stop firefighters from extinguishing the oil well fires. Ports near New Orleans import not only petroleum, but since NAFTA exported factories and farming to foreign nations, USA is dependant upon foreign food to survive, as pointed out by disgruntled mayor of New Orleans, er, "New Venice".... Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?! EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE FOUND ON FAILED LEVEE DEBRIS! Ruptured New Orleans Levee had help failing By: Hal Turner September 9, 2005 3:36 PM EDT http://www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html NOTE: This story has been UPDATED as of Saturday, September 10, 2005 @ 11:40 PM EDT The updated info is incorporated into the story and appears in bold type SECOND UPDATE: Monday Sept. 12, 2005 @ 8:23 AM ABC News Video with Ear Witness to Explosions and states emphatically "They blew this levee" Click the link below the story New Orleans, LA -- Divers inspecting the ruptured levee walls surrounding New Orleans found something that piqued their interest: Burn marks on underwater debris chunks from the broken levee wall! One diver, a member of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, saw the burn marks and knew immediately what caused them. When he surfaced and showed the evidence to his superior, the on-site Coordinator for FEMA stepped-in and said "You are not here to conduct an investigation as to why this rupture occurred, but only to determine how best to close it." The FEMA coordinator then threw the evidence back into the water and said "You will tell no one about this." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG'). I don't. When people offer opinions that are in opposition to mine, I often don't say anything at all. And I often tell them that they are entitled to their opinions. And if I think they are wrong, I try to show through presentation of documentation that they are wrong. I can provide hundreds of examples of this. When people obfuscate and lie, I accuse them of obfuscating and lying. One example of this is taking a part of one of my statements out of context in order to make it look like I am saying the complete opposite of what I really said. In your case, I didn't suggest you don't think things through because your opinion was in opposition to mine. I accused you of that because you made an outrageously ridiculous statement. You suggested that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM What about these trailers Guest rants about? The Times-Picayune reports that a home owner threatens to drag the trailer FEMA dumped on his property into the street. Why? Two months after a federal contractor dumped the trailer on his front lawn, no power has been supplied. If he could get power, he could spend more time repairing his house. 1. A FEMA contractor must erect a temporary utility pole, wire it to the trailer and to neighborhood power lines. Can take months. 2. The utility (Entergy) is bankrupt. It can't hire more employees or get more equipment. 3. Even if the damaged house has been re-connected to power, wiring can't be extended to the trailer without the FEMA pole and establishing a new contract with Entergy. A permit is needed, and fees are $45 plus a deposit to the Parish ($75 in Tammany Parish). Customers of Ciesco pay $150 deposit in the Parish. (Fees depend upon Parish (NOT CITY) schedules). A slumgullion of a mixture of State, Parish and City regulations and safety requirements that must be satisfied. Hook-ups must be pre-inspected or the customer is liable to fines and power cut-off. Permits are backed-up because of the lack of inspectors. 4. Failure of FEMA to give instructions and information on a multi-step process to homeowners. http://www/nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/1137222192280310.xml Sat. Jan. 14, 2006. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM Well which is more passable. Flooded roads or roads with debris in them? Is the depth of the water or the size and quantity of the debris a factor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM Flooded or debris clogged... both impassible for vehicular traffic. The local National Guard had equipment that would have made it possible to get through some of the flooding for rescuing people, but most of it was in Iraq, and not available locally when it was needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM FEMA throws roadblocks at Charity and University Hospitals. Louisiana State University, administrators of the two large hospitals, estimate that repairs to Charity would cost $258 million. FEMA has offered the public hospital system run by LSU only $23 million for damage to the basement and the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems of Big Charity. LSU has not accepted, and asked FEMA to explain how it planned to do an overall assessment. At this point FEMA has no timeline for completing its overal assessment. The Times-Picayune, Melinda Deslatte, Associated Press. Article reproduced in Nola.com. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM I will take the 28 million, no questions asked. I appologise for suggesting that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM Click HERE to read a compelling, well written article from the United Kingdom's Observer-Guardian about New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina, and post-Katrina "recovery". Here's two excerpts from that article: "Hunters Field is a sacred spot. A scrubby tract in the shadow of the Interstate, it's the home of the Yellow Pocahontas, one of the most revered Mardi Gras Indian tribes, and a site of Super Sunday, perhaps the greatest day in the black calendar, when the tribes gather in full costume to pow-wow, make music, and party as only New Orleanians can. This is the heart of the Seventh Ward, rich in history and black culture. Before Katrina, I could look from here down St Bernard Avenue with its hole-in-the-wall bars, barbershops, used-clothing stores and social clubs, and it seemed no power on earth could snuff out the vitality here. Now, nothing stirs. The shops and bars are all boarded up, there is no power and no one is allowed to live in the houses. At the height of the flooding, the waters rose eight-foot deep and caused massive damage. Most homes that weren't destroyed are infected by mould. Yet, experts agree, the area can be salvaged. It would take a lot of money and commitment, but the Seventh Ward, unlike the Lower Ninth, isn't gone."... …the sense of loss is overwhelming. One morning, I ask B to retrace his Katrina journey with me. The apartment complex where he started is under guard, but everything else - the ravaged wasteground by the overpass, littered with fast-food containers and water bottles; the shattered glass in the forecourt of Skate Country; the felled and twisted neon sign outside Capt Sal's; the whole of Chef Highway, mile on mile of desolation - has been left to its own devices. 'I guess the clean-up crews must be on their break,' says B. We drive along the interstate, taking the same route as the trucks that delivered him and his group to the Convention Centre. None of the areas below shows any sign of life till we reach the CBD (Central Business District), which is almost back to normal. The centre has been scrubbed clean, inside and out, but remains closed to visitors. B finds the spot where he squatted, those dreadful days and nights. He relives it - the bodies blocking the bathroom door, the snatched children, the old women dying in their faeces, the National Guardsmen laughing among themselves, the heat, the stench, the helplessness - and he cries." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Azizi Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM That article was in the Sunday January 15, 2006 The Observer and is itself an excerpt from Nik Cohn' book 'Triksta' Here's another longish excerpt from that article, but IMO, the entire article is well worth reading and passing on to others: "The French Quarter isn't feeling much pain. At the height of the storm, it shipped less than a foot of water. A couple of bars on Bourbon Street never closed. All that's missing are the tourists. There's bitter irony in this, because tourism is the primary reason that New Orleans sold its soul. Before the 1980s, visitors were expected to adjust to native customs. Then the local economy ran aground. The oil boom of the Seventies collapsed, and big business, driven off by Louisiana's punitive taxes, left town. Even the port, the city's primary source of income, was diminished. That left the tourist dollar. The French Quarter, previously ramshackle, was transformed into a creole Disneyland. Shopping malls, convention centres, casinos and theme parks sprang up, enriching a power elite. Old white money and new black money thrived. The populace at large was left to rot. In recent decades, the mayors and the majority of the city council have been African-Americans, which merely proves that black rip-off artists can be as voracious as white. Pre-Katrina, tourism generated $1 million a day but not a dime ever seemed to reach the streets. And this was deliberate. Tourists need service - menial labour to clean their tables and make their beds, hose away their vomit on Bourbon Street. To provide it, the city adopted a policy of malign neglect. The old black neighbourhoods, rich in history and culture, were allowed to sink into ruin and the school system to founder. Without education, there was no way out. Many who refused to submit to grunt work in the Quarter became criminals, most often drug dealers. The public-housing projects that ringed the city's centre became armed camps, where killing was seen as proof of manhood. By 2000, New Orleans was America's murder capital, eight times as deadly as New York. For tourists, this was an invisible world. If they ventured beyond the Quarter at all, they took the streetcar past the mansions on St Charles Avenue or joined a walking tour of the Garden District, and few troubled to inquire what paid for such luxury. The only white faces seen in the projects belonged to social workers and drug-trawlers. The city was more deeply segregated than at any time in its history. Almost every project family lost someone to violence or jail. A culture of hopelessness took hold. These were the people herded into the Superdome and Convention Centre, the people on rooftops and overpasses, waiting to be rescued, and the people branded as looters, even though most took only what they needed to stay alive. If one small good has come out of Katrina it is that they're invisible no longer. That doesn't mean they now have a voice or will be treated better. In the Quarter, they already seem forgotten. About half the hotels and restaurants have reopened, catering to an army of relief workers. Many have the same habits as the tourists they've replaced. As a race, they're gigantic - huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree-trunks in floppy shorts - and they drive SUVs to match. New Orleans, shadowy and mysterious, birthplace of jazz, has been taken over by behemoths, blasting country and western on their car stereos." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM The Seventh Ward is a large and diverse area, starting on the River at a point on the triangle formed by Esplanade Avenue (and then the line turning north and extended along Bayou St. John Ave.) and Elysian Fields Avenue, and extending north past Dillard University all the way to the Lake. In this area of New Orleans, Neighborhoods, not the Ward, determine the demographics. The writer of the material copied in the British papers seems to be bigoted in his attitude towards Whites, and only marginally familiar with the 'seventh ward'. The Seventh Ward area on the River, Marigny Neighborhood, is 72% White. To the north is the typical "Seventh Ward Neighborhood," extending north to Agriculture Ave.; 94% Black, 1/3 of houses owner-occupied. This is part of the area of which Azizi talks. (For comparison, houses in the Ninth Ward are 57% owner-occupied). To the north and west is the Fairgrounds Neighborhood, 70% Black, about 44% of houses owner-occupied. The St. Bernard Neighborhood is just north of Fairgrounds, 98% Black. Only 17% of housing is owner-occupied. Interstate 610 (State 90) had already damaged this area. To the east is the Dillard Neighborhood, 88% Black, but 60% of housing owner-ocupied. Filmore Neighborhood, to the North, is more mixed, 57% Black, 86% owner-occupied. Topping off the Seventh Ward, Lake Terrace and Oaks Neighborhoods, to the North bordering Lake Ponchartrain, are 72% white and 95% owner-occupied. A lot of data here, but important; areas with high owner-occupancy are more likely to stay in the hands of the people of the 'hood.' Now the JOKERS, which at the moment happens to be FEMA, and Federal rebuilding of the walls, levees and other protection. Residents are in limbo until at least late Spring. New Federal flood maps are scheduled to be released later this year. These maps will tell residents whether- or how high- to rebuild their damaged homes. The Commission land use panel wants preliminary maps as soon as possible, but FEMA prefers to wait until the maps are finalized (some prelim. info. may be released in April-May). If owners rebuild now, all they have as a guide are the current required elevations, which may be substantially changed when new maps are released. Federally guaranteed Insurance will depend on these maps. If owners choose to rebuild following current requirements, and another flood comes, FEMA could rule them 'victims of repetitive flooding', and force them to raise their homes. When will the models for levees, walls, pumps and drainage canals be complete? Not until well into the next hurricane season. And then there will be the arguments and negociations and politics and--- What will owners of rental property do? Will they sell or rebuild and repair? Neighborhoods with low ownership may have a hard fight ahead. Some of this information here: www.nola.com, The Times-Picayune, article on new flood maps and regulations, specifically http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/113730870342020.xml Demographics and Neighborhood data, start with: Seventh Ward Neighborhood |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM What concerns me now is that these charettes are being conducted by folks who do not represent the areas that were destroyed... I heard a "planner" on the Diane Rheme Shoow the other day and he was talking about things which are all underway... Then Diane brought in an attorney from the 7th Ward who made this point and it seems to be an important point and most certainly has racial implications as well... I hope that the "planners" won't get too far ahead of the process, which based on my experience with various community projects ovetr the last 6 ot 7 years seems to be hard to prevent... Show a planner a piece of ground anf the wheels start spinnin'.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM Chocolate City: Here is how the responsible and capable Government on New Orleans conducts itself: Storms Payback From God, Nagin Says Mayor Faults War, Blacks' Infighting http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/16/AR2006011600925.html By Brett Martel Associated Press Tuesday, January 17, 2006; Page A04 NEW ORLEANS, Jan. 16 -- Mayor C. Ray Nagin suggested Monday that hurricanes Katrina and Rita and other storms were a sign that "God is mad at America" -- and at black communities, too, for tearing themselves apart with violence and political infighting. "Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country," Nagin said as he and other city leaders marked Martin Luther King Jr. Day. "Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves." Nagin, who is African American, also promised that New Orleans will be a "chocolate" city again. Many of the city's black neighborhoods were heavily damaged by Katrina. "It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans -- the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority-African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans." Nagin described an imaginary conversation with King, the late civil rights leader. "I said, 'What is it going to take for us to move on and live your dream and make it a reality?' He said, 'I don't think that we need to pay attention any more as much about other folks and racists on the other side.' He said, 'The thing we need to focus on as a community -- black folks I'm talking about -- is ourselves.' " Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?" The reply, Nagin said, was "We as a people need to fix ourselves first." Nagin also said King would have been dismayed with black leaders who are "most of the time tearing each other down publicly for the delight of many." A day earlier, gunfire erupted at a parade to commemorate King's birthday. Three people were wounded in the daylight shooting amid a throng of mostly black spectators, but police said there were no immediate suspects or witnesses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM Good stuff, Q and Geoduck. I wonder if the writer from the Obsrver was even there. His article states he visited New Orleans "six months after Katrina". You do the math - and my sources from there say the same. Bodies all over? Go back and verify how many fatalities in the Dome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM New Orleans a chocolate city- it has been one for a long time, and it will continue to be one. The city (pre-Hurricane) was 2/3 Black and will continue to be. The interactions among members of the large Black population insure a vital culture. The planners are putting forth ideas ranging from practical to cloud nine, but it will take time to vet them, and they must be integrated with federally mandated regulations and money available. Much cleanup must still be done; contractors and their workers have taken care of about 30% so far. One may quarrel with 'where done' and 'amount done' but so many decisions are involved, that it is hard to evaluate progress. People on the Gulf would agree more of those "gigantic- huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree trunks...behemoths" are needed to speed cleanup and demolition- contractors with FEMA jobs can't find enough qualified workers. That writer with the Observer whatever doesn't understand contract labor- these workers must have a large vehicle to transport their goods to a job. I had an in-law in the business who would operate a crane one contract, an earth mover on a dam the next and so on. Much of the time he not only had an SUV or heavy-duty pick-up, but also a truck and trailer since the job often was far from housing. It's not a life I would want although the money is good. (I wonder if that writer is a Hobbit). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM Ahhhh, yeah, the reference to N.O. as a "chocolate city" sho nuff got my wife, the P-Vine's, attention but I unnerstood what he was sayin'''.. Lotta of folks 'round the country ain't all that hooked up into black culture... But I knew when I heard it that I was gonna have some explaineratin' to do to the wife but she still ain't got a clue... Oh well??? Maybe that's a part of the problem in rebuildin' N.O.... Folks gonna need a vocabulary book in order to hold these charettes... One that goes both ways.... "Charettes"????? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 17 Jan 06 - 09:55 PM Hey Hey! I think one of Bobert's eyes in open in one corner just a tilge and some light is sneaking in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM Some nonsense on CNN last night, saying NO isn't chocolate any more, because it has gone from 2/3 Black before the hurricanes to only 40% now. The figure is meaningless since those who left include many who are waiting till the Federal FEMA rules are. Those who owned homes will return if they can repair and rebuild. Many won't know what they can do until the FEMA maps are out in early summer. In the NY Times today I see that the City has agreed to notify homeowners before they demolish any houses. For 123 worst case houses in the lower Ninth, 7-10 days notice will be given, and the owner can appeal before the limit is up. For 1900 houses less damaged but 'in danger of collapse,' 30 days notice, with right of appeal will be given. A Mr. Meffert, the City official in charge of demolition, says the program can now go ahead, saying "we have to rebuild for everyone" (whatever that means). In all, about 2500 houses are on the demolish list. Bobert, I agree local NO language use can be misunderstood outside of the area. I remember several years ago a musician working in the Quarter telling me he lived in chocolate city because rents were too high in the Quarter and Marigny. The mayor sometimes sounds like a preacher, but I heard a lot of that talk when I was down there, from both Black and White. and no one paid it any nevermind. His vote base has shifted dramatically. It was the Uptown vote that elected the mayor, now he must hope for strong Black support in the next election. He will be running against several declared White candidates. An editorial in the Times-Picayune stated "Mayor Nagin has a good heart, but --- he heightened tensions between neighbors." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM I see there is a thread by Poppa amd Mamma Gator all about their plans for Mardi Gras. I searched for comments about Bush, Brownie, Blanco Nagin, FEMA, DHA, Katrina and there is no mention of the disaster or bickering about who's fault it is. Basically they say Laissez les bon temps roulet. Is the whole controversy is a media event? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM Incidently, Michael Brown today said that all the problems were his fault??? Yeah, okay, Mike... Nice try,,, Yer still off the Bush Christmas card list... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:32 PM Score one fer Bobert, Brownie fesses up. http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/59312.htm January 20, 2006 -- MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif. � Former FEMA Director Michael Brown has placed blame on everyone from New Orleans' mayor to Louisiana's governor for the chaos following Hurricane Katrina. Now, he's including himself. Brown admits he fell short of conveying the magnitude of the disaster and was slow in calling for help. "I should have demanded the military sooner," Brown, former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told a gathering of broadcast and National Weather Service meteorologists Wednesday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM Nah, Old Guy.... Brownie, after telling Congress under oath that he warned Bush that a Cat 4 or Cat 5 was about to hit the Gulf Coast on the Satudurday before Katrina is now playing, "Oh, dumb me????"... Yeah, this is all just another Karl Rove trick to try to keep his boy afloat... Yeah, get Brownie to take tha fall and it's one less scandal that can taske Bush out.... Too bad the Dems is up to their ears in whatever 'er they would be killin' Bush on this one.... Makes ya wonder what the Dems is hidin'...Must be big 'er they would be on this one like ugly on an ape... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM Pre-Katrina Warnings Not Heeded Senators Slam Bush Administration for Not Heeding Warnings in Advance of Hurricane Katrina By LARA JAKES JORDAN Associated Press Writer The Associated Press WASHINGTON Jan 24, 2006 — Senators lambasted the Bush administration on Tuesday for failing to heed devastating predictions from a hurricane preparedness test that began a year before Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast. The top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee also accused the White House of trying to block or delay the panel's inquiry into the government's sluggish response to Katrina. The preparedness exercise that began in July 2004, dubbed Hurricane Pam, warned that a Category 3 storm would overwhelm the New Orleans area with flood waters, killing up to 60,000 people and destroying buildings and roads. State and federal officials were concluding Pam's findings when Katrina, an actual Category 4 storm, roared ashore on Aug. 29. "As a dry run for the real thing, Pam should have been a wake-up call that could not be ignored," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, chair of the Senate committee's examination of Pam's findings at a Tuesday hearing. "Instead, it is apparent that a more appropriate name for Pam should have been 'Cassandra' the mythical prophet who warned of disasters but whom no one believed." ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM Did I reasd that right, Amos??? "Sen. Suusan Collins, R-Maine..." Hmmmmm??? "R"??? Like I said, the Repubs must have pics of Ted with a hooker (or worse since a pic of Ted with ahooker wouldn't really shock anyone too much...)??? They got somethin' on the Dems 'er the Dems would be killing Bush on his and his adminstrations complete failures to come thru with 3 eyars of promises to be prepared to "protect the American people".... And the beat goes on... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:35 PM Oh well, firget the Dems... Just turned in the corporate owned news channel and it even reporting that the Bush administartion wasn't prepared... Something that I have been stating for a couple two or threee months here and been called a bunch of names, had folks ask for sources (which I have provided) and then told that in their opionion thew lack of response was the sates and local governemnt fault... This even after I pointed out that the National Response Plan made a natural disaster the size of Katrina's the feds problem... Yeah, the "gate" certainly belongs behind Katrina... Bush earned it an now he's gonna have to wear it... Oh, for the good ol' days when it was nuthin' much more than a guy not wanting hios wife and daughter to know he was gettin' a little on the side... Seems like the innocent 50's in retrospect... (But, Bobert, Karl Rove says that the Repubs have "a post 9/11 mentality...) Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention that Osaom ordered up Hurricane Katrina.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM Hmmmmmm, now that a lot of the stuff I have pointed out has made it into the main stream media it's no wonder that the usual cast isn't here with their yeah, but's, attacks and outright Bushite propaganda talking points... ..."yeah now you don't talk so loud and, yeah, you don't talk so proud... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Jan 06 - 11:29 PM New York Times today says "White House declines to provide Storm papers" (on Katrina). Nor will senior White House officials be allowed to give testimony before Congressional Committees. See article by Eric Lipton, Jan. 25, 2006. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM Yeah, but won't stop" Bush the Proclaimer" from pumping out his chest saying that 'he's deicated to rebuilding New Orleans... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM New Orleans Times-Picayune today- FEMA promised $400 million to hospitals, and said the money was sent, but so far not one penny received. Keith Darcé, business writer, Fri., Jan. 27, 2006. FEMA had assured members of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the U. S. House Committee on Energy and Commerce that the money was in place. The Mesical Director for the State Department of Health and Hospitals has seen no funds, and continues to fill out more forms. The hospitals have gone into debt; among the expenses was $50 milloin for a military style tent hospital housed in and around a convention center that was needed to care for patients. Operating losses at West Jefferson Medical Center have exceeded $28 million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 27 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM 'Hurricane Pam' exercise offered glimpse of Katrina misery Friday, 6 p.m. By John McQuaid Staff writer Times Picayune The document's cover page reads: "Southeast Louisiana Catastrophic Hurricane Functional Plan." "It maps out detailed instructions for emergency managers responding to a deadly hurricane that floods all of New Orleans, killing more than 60,000: how to rescue and evacuate hundreds of thousands of people stranded on rooftops or trapped by rising waters; how to quickly mobilize federal, state and local agencies; how to drain water laced with toxic sludge and clean up a ruined city. But officials never put this plan into action. It wasn't an official disaster playbook but an experiment, the product of a weeklong simulation done last year in which emergency managers confronted a fictional Hurricane Pam. The halting emergency response to Hurricane Katrina's aftermath left thousands of people stranded in New Orleans and adjacent areas for days without food and water, with many vulnerable to roaming gangs of outlaws. Flaws in communications and coordination between government agencies at the federal, state and local levels apparently slowed the response, though exactly what went wrong has yet to be determined. The 109-page report on Pam, dated Sept. 20, 2004, and provided by a participant in the exercise, addresses many of these issues. The simulation imagined a grim scenario even worse than Katrina: A slow-moving Category 3 hurricane strikes the New Orleans area, overtopping levees and causing 10-12 feet of flooding in New Orleans and the entire east bank metro area. Katrina's flood waters spared most of Jefferson Parish and parts of New Orleans. In the simulation, 61,290 people die, including 24,250 in New Orleans. An additional 384,000 are injured or fall ill. The exercise grew out of an initiative at the Federal Emergency Management Agency started early in the Bush presidency to develop plans for the worst possible disasters that could hit the United States..." And ignored by state, city and local officials. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM No, Old Guy, this is where you go drastically wrong!!! Yes, for you Bush apologists it would be real convient to leave the impression that this was failure of state, loacl and federal governemnt. Porblem is, is that your propositiion is terribly flawed and fir a very good reason... You guys don't cop to nuthin"... First of all, the National Response Plan took into account situations where state and local governments were overwhelmed... I think it is safe to say that this was the case here.. Secondly, It is not even a given that the sate and locals weren't performing well... Governor Blanko has turned over her documents on what she did and Bush has turned over cherry picked documents ane refusded to hand over any more... And lastly, Bush, inspite of an urgent call from fall-guy, Micheal Brown two days before Katrina hit, did nothjing but continue his vaction and even then went to Californis to do some comapaigning... These are the facts... Now to WITT: Karl "Big Fat Liar" says that Republicans are the ones with the post 9/11 vision???? Hahahahaha...... "cept it ain't funny... The only thing they seem to care about is raiding the treasury for themselves and their fat cat CEO buds... No one is safer since 9/11... Incidents of terrorism have incresed every year since 9/11... You won't admit it, Old Guy, but you know it is true... How anyone can defend Bush anymore is beyond me unless yer getting rich off the treasury rip-off... whcih must be the case... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM What makes you think I am defending Bush? I am saying the responsibility belongs to state and local governments to be ready for a disaster. Were they? Did they do anything sugested in the report? You are the defending the corrupt and irresponsible "chocolate City" government. You keep mumbling about corporate owned news channels and corporate owned newspapers. Which ones are not owned by a corporation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM In the case of New Orleans, the Federal Government was the main author of the disaster. Responsibility for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal is Federal. This is the canal that caused major flooding in the Ninth Ward and Jefferson and St. Bernard Parishes. It is part of the Navigable Waters of the United States. For years, there have been calls for upgrades. Rather than do that, Congress authorized a new lock to be built at a cost of 748 million, and a new bridge over the canal (separate project; more millions), although traffic was decreasing. NO money was voted for flood control. The lock is (was?) a porkbarrel project of the Corps of Engineers and the Louisiana federal congressional delegation and their congressional buddies. These congressmen, of course, bear partial responsibility, but there were no objections from the Executive. City and State government officials had no effective say in the matter. The responsibility of the Federal government for navigable waterways is spelled out under Title 33, Navigation and Navigable Waters. Three Federal agencies are involved: Department of Transportation Army Corps of Engineers Coast Guard, Dept. of Homeland Security. Also involved is Port of New Orleans (don't know who is ultimately responsible here, but I am sure the City has little or no power here). Finally, there is NO way for the local and State governments to be ready for a disaster of that magnitude in the short time involved, and where they have little effective input on protective measures for the federally-controlled canal whose levees and walls were overtopped. Now the Corps of Engineers is trying to restore Level 3 protection by mid-summer, and Level 5 protection is only on paper. All of this has been posted before (thread 84801 and others). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM Yeah, Old Guy, uou gloss over Bush's National Response Plan like ir didn't exist... It outlines the federal response in case of a natural disaster (as well as terrorists attack)when local or state governemtns are overwhelmed... Google up "National Response Plan" fir a little insight into one of the main points I have been making in this thread that is now over 300 posts without one single word of rebuttal as to the federal responsibilities were/are.... (Normal, Bobert, but at least Old Guy hasn't gotten around to blaming it on Bill Clinton...) Opps, sorry, Old Guy, but if you're thinking of blaming the Bush administartions failures in their poor response to Katrina on Bill Clinton, that dog won't hunt... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:34 PM Sounds like another I Hate Bush thread to me. The state and local government's failures are being glossed over |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM Research into more than ten years of reporting on hurricane and flood damage mitigation efforts in and around New Orleans indicates that local and state officials did not use federal money that was available for levee improvements or coastal reinforcement and often did not secure local matching funds that would have generated even more federal funding. In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes. "In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects." The levee board promised Times-Picayune readers that the "few manageable gaps" in the walls protecting the city from Mother Nature's waters "will be sealed within four years (1999) completing our circle of protection." But less than a year later, that same levee board was denied the authority to refinance its debts. Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle "repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends money and ignores public bid laws," according to the Times-Picayune. The newspaper quoted Kyle as saying that the board was near bankruptcy and should not be allowed to refinance any bonds, or issue new ones, until it submitted an acceptable plan to achieve solvency. Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project. By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center. The following year, the state legislature did appropriate $49.5 million for levee improvements, but the proposed spending had to be allocated by the State Bond Commission before the projects could receive financing. The commission placed the levee improvements in the "Priority 5" category, among the projects least likely to receive full or immediate funding. The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls. No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched. "The problem is money is real tight in Baton Rouge right now," state Sen. Francis Heitmeier (D-Algiers) told the Times-Picayune. "We have to do with what we can get." Louisiana Commissioner of Administration Mark Drennen told local officials that, if they reduced their requests for state funding in other, less critical areas, they would have a better chance of getting the requested funds for levee improvements. The newspaper reported that in 2000 and 2001, "the Bond Commission has approved or pledged millions of dollars for projects in Jefferson Parish, including construction of the Tournament Players Club golf course near Westwego, the relocation of Hickory Avenue in Jefferson (Parish) and historic district development in Westwego." There is no record of such discretionary funding requests being reduced or withdrawn, but in October of 2003, nearby St. Charles Parish did receive a federal grant for $475,000 to build bike paths on top of its levees. Earlier this year, the levee board did complete a $2.5 million restoration project. After months of delays, officials rolled away fencing to reveal the restored 1962 Mardi Gras fountain in a four-acre park featuring a new 600-foot plaza between famous Lakeshore Drive and the sea wall. Financing for the renovation came from a property tax passed by New Orleans voters in 1983. The tax, which generates more than $6 million each year for the levee board, is dedicated to capital projects. Levee board officials defended more than $600,000 in cost overruns for the Mardi Gras fountain project, according to the Times-Picayune, "citing their responsibility to maintain the vast green space they have jurisdiction over along the lakefront." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:53 PM October 18, 2005 Inept New Orleans Officials Could it be that corrupt and inept city officials contributed greatly to all the deaths and injuries caused by Hurricane Katrina? According to a former president of the New Orleans City Council and former Orleans Levee Board member that is exactly the case. Peggy Wilson, a New Orleans city councilwoman from 1986 through 1998 and later a governor-appointed Orleans Levee Board member, has given a candid account this week on what the mainstream media has failed to say regarding the big storm's devastating effect. Wilson said that the levee board was well-funded but the money was not spent on levee maintenance and improvements like it should have. Rather, the board focused on widening bridges and making other accommodations for riverboat casinos, which not surprisingly, are a major source of the levee board's funding. She also said that some board members, including the chairman of the board, had personal relationships with companies that were contracted to perform unnecessary services for the board. As for the most inept official, Wilson believes that title belongs to New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, who she says is not corrupt but rather "he didn't know anything about city government or how to run a city….Its just the most unbelievable ineptness." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:43 PM Red herring, GUEST... First, as Joe Offer has asked over and over, please don't post long cut 'n pastes... The rule is if it won't fir on screen then it's too long... Plus, unlike Arne, I'm not going to get into them long, well corporate financed blogs that 99% oif the time are 100% behind the Bushites... Must be nice to be that well financed that you can afford to pay folks to take sh*t and spin it into Long "Tropic of Cancer" length reems of Shinola.... So you are going to place Bush's entire defense in the hands a of Peggy Wilson? Yes ____ No _____ Ahhhh, just who controls the levees and who is responsible for them? N.O. ________ Don Duck ______ The Federal Governemnt _______ Like I said, red herring.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM Well, well, well... Like the tides coming in this one is slowly but surely making it's way to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with now even the corporate media reporting that Chertoff was AWOL.... Hmmmmmm, who could be next in the tide's way??? Plus, nice to keep this little scandal refreshed now and then as the noose tightens... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM Yes, the tide is rolling but it is going to batter the State and local officials. 26 Jan 5:33, OG said "Ignored by State, city and local officials" Boberts' reply said "Failure of State, city and Federal officials" at 6:30. Bobert, I don't believe you really read the other posts here or you are totally misinformed. However, I am going to give you the 'benefit of the the doubt' and think you are playing Devils advocate. If that is not the case, then you have to be Twins 'cause one person couldn't be this F'in stupid. I just wonder what your position will be when the dust has settled and the real truth is out. Oh, one more thing, can you not visualize the the National Response plan is designed to provide asistance once an area decides it is overwhelmed which usually requires the disaster to hit first? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM Bobert: Joe has a 30" screen now so you can't use that excuse to keep the real facts from getting to the readers of your thread. You have to refresh your own threads. Nobody else will. What happened to your medigate thread? Who was responsible for evacuating N.O. before Katrina hit? Cut and pastes that Bobert does not want you to see: Questions have also been raised, for example, over the failure of New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin to order the city's fleet of school buses into action to evacuate residents, many of whom live below the poverty line and had no means of fleeing independently, before the storm hit. Then there is the mystery as to why Kathleen Blanco, the Democrat Louisiana governor who attempted to shift the spotlight from herself to the White House by threatening to punch the President, refused to send in National Guard troops in any significant number to assist the post-flood rescue and evacuation effort. Even now, she still refuses to sign them into federal control so that their contribution can be better co-ordinated. According to Senator Landrieu, Mayor Nagin's evacuation was the best evacuation I've seen, I've never seen one any better. It was the Bush administration's fault that hundreds of city school buses weren't dispatched to evacuate the hurricane-battered residents of New Orleans before floods swamped the city. Asked on why New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin failed to follow the city's evacuation plan and press the buses into service, Landrieu blamed Bush administration cuts in mass transit funding. Landrieu: "In other words, this administration did not believe in mass transit. They won't even get people to work on a sunny day, let alone getting them out." Saying she was unwilling to criticize Louisiana officials, the Louisiana Democrat insisted that Mayor Nagin's evacuation efforts had been a smashing success. Because the mayor evacuated the city, we had the best evacuation of any evacuation I've seen. I'm 50 years old; I've never seen one any better When reminded that were a hundred thousand people left in the city, Landrieu once again blamed the White House by saying They did [have] a hundred thousand people left in the city because this federal government won't support cities to evacuate people, whether it's from earthquakes, tornadoes, or hurricanes. And that's the truth. On August 26 Mayor Nagin advised New Orleanians to keep a close eye on the storm and prepare for evacuation. He made various statements encouraging people to leave without officially calling for an evacuation throughout the 27th, and issued a voluntary evacuation request late in the day. He stressed the potential danger posed by Katrina by saying "This is not a test. This is the real deal." He was hesitant to order a mandatory evacuation because of concerns about the city's liability for closing hotels and other businesses. The actual plan was here but it has been deleted for some "strange" reason. Elections for Mayor and City Council members had been schedualed for November 2005, but these were postponed due to the devastation after Katrina and the many New Orleanians still living out of the city. New elections are schedualed for April 22, 2006. A native of a working-class section of the city's Algiers neighborhood, Mr. Nagin, 49 years old, was a cable-television executive before his election. Although a lifelong Democrat, he was friendly to Republicans, contributing to Mr. Bush's 2000 bid and endorsing Ms. Blanco's Republican opponent in 2003. After Katrina, Mr. Nagin turned to a cadre of other political newcomers and business leaders who had backed his campaign. Pivotal among them was Joseph Canizaro, a commercial real-estate developer who is personally close to the president and top political adviser Karl Rove. At that point, he says, he decided he shouldn't rely on the governor or other state officials. "It suddenly dawned on me: What game should I be playing? How do I get this done?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM Oops. Here is the link to the Missing plan |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM Nah, G-zer... I think it's you who ain't doing the readeratin' here... If you go back to the very first post in this thread I made reference to the National Response Plan... This plan, written by the Bush folks incidently, looked at scenerios where state and local resources/gevernemnts were overwhelmed by a disaster and how the federal government would act in that case... Whether or jot the state and locals were overwhelmed with Katrina can and will continue to be debated... But that is not the issue... The issue is that, given that Michale Brown spoke directly with Bush on two full days before Katrina warning Bush of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 most likely coming thru N.O., given the National Repsonse Plan, this should have set some actions in motion... But as we now learn, this didn't occur for another 3 days... These three days may end up being like the 18 minutes of missing Nixon tapes but I don't think so... There's way to much information out there, including notes from the White House in regards to Governor Blanko's communictations which the White House has cherry picked thru and sitting on the remainder (think Cheney's notes on the "Energy Policy" here...)... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM Well first the state and local governments have to be overwhelmed. I suppose if they sit on ther asses and screw everything up from the getgo, they are overwhelmed in your opinion. How about that big cut and paste of 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM containingg facts you don't want anybody to see? It tells how state and local officials pissed away money for the levees on other stuff and they could not match federal money for the levees. It is gross incompetence in financial matters. I guess they were "overwhelmed". In your opinion incompetent = overwhelmed which means the Feds have to do everything for them like taking care of a retard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM Okay, please tell us, sccording to the NPR, what the Feds are supposed to do "2 days" before Katrina made landfall. Two or three examples will suffuce and be sure not to include the semi loads of equipment enroute to the area prior to landfall. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM First, Old Guy, younare more intellegent than yeer last post.. Maybe someone is using her handle... What, are you going to tell me that N.O.'s should have a had a plan ready to impliment if the largest natural disaster of our life time hit them??? Hey, lets get real here... Where do you live??? Nearest large city please will do... And what plan is in place in that city in the case of a disaster??? Well, it don't atter much what city it is... The answer is "none"!!! Not even Washington, D.C. has such a plan... Cities are not finacially able to have this kind of stuff all worked out... And, evn if they did have the dough to handle a disaster, they are still very much dependent on neighbors to cooperate... I thought that was one of the lessons learned by 9/11... Well. you'd sure think so by the number of times that Bush pumped out his cheat and said, "My job is to protect the American people!!!" No, G-zer, rather than ask me just stay tuned as the rest of the story will unfold... Just yesterday, the Govewrnment Accountability Office (GAO) released a scathing report that said: 1. the administration did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency.. 2, disregarded early warnings of of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and South Lousinana 3. and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the August 29th storm... Hmmmmmm? And Representtaive Thomas Davis (R-Va.) stated, "The Director... of the National Hurricane Center said this was the big one... but when it happened, Bush is in Texas, Card is in Maine, the vice-prsident is fly-fishing. I mean, who's in charge here?" And this from a Repub??? As fir **exactly** what the feds were supposed to be doing, G-zer, stay tuned as the Nastional Response Plan get's it 15 minutes of fame... But so far, there is nothing that I originally posted here that has been proven to be incorrect... Might of facy, as time goes on, more and more of what I argued is falling into place... Oh, BTW, how many references to Katrina did Bush make in his State of Union Address??? Hmmmmmmmmm? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM Bobert: Are we on the same planet? About the Office of Emergency Preparedness http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=9 Mission statement: The [New Orleans]Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans. Our primary responsibility is to advise the Mayor, the City Council and Chief Administrative Officer regarding emergency preparedness activities and operations.We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to city-wide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan. All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office. Our authority is defined by the Louisiana Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, Chapter 6 Section 709, Paragraph B: "Each Parish shall maintain a disaster agency which, except as otherwise provided under this act, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish." Hurricane Evacuation Guidelines The Greater New Orleans Area is faced with a difficult challenge during an evacuation due to the city's large population and limited road system which is susceptible to flooding. That is why the Office of Emergency Preparedness, urges people to "Plan to Be Safe" by voluntarily evacuating "high risk areas" before a recommended evacuation. See the high risk areas. If you plan to evacuate, leave as early as possible, before hurricane gale force winds, heavy rainfall and storm surge cause road closings. There are three phases of evacuation: precautionary, recommended, and mandatory. An evacuation notice will be issued when a hurricane is forecast to present a danger to the Greater New Orleans Area. When this notice to evacuate will be issued, depends on the landfall probability in this area and also on the speed and severity of the storm. * State Evacuation Maps * General Evacuation Guidelines Here is the big one too large to cut and paste and Bobert will be too lazy to read: STATE OF LOUISIANA Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN APRIL 2005 http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/STATE%20OF%20LOUISIANA%20EOP%202005.doc ..............1. The ESF 3 Coordinator will develop plans, procedures, arrangements and agreements to ensure that the activities required by ESF 3 can be carried out effectively and efficiently. 2. The ESF 3 Coordinator will initiate contacts with other state agencies and organizations, in particular, the Department of Natural Resources and the United States Department of Agriculture � Natural Resources Conservation Service (USDA � NRCS) to ensure cooperation in emergencies and disasters. 3. The ESF 3 will work with emergency organizations such as LOHSEP and regional emergency task forces to ensure that the state�s infrastructure is adequate to support traffic flows in large scale evacuations. Particular attention will be paid to hurricane evacuation routes in the southern part of the state. Levees and flood control structures will be designed, built and maintained to contain potential large scale floods. C. RESPONSE: 1. When an emergency is imminent, the ESF 3 Coordinator will assess the potential impact of the threat on the state�s infrastructure and work with other authorities to ensure that any necessary immediate repairs or arrangements for critical structures and facilities are initiated. 2. If a hurricane emergency develops, the ESF 3 Coordinator will work with all state and local authorities to manage evacuation of people in the threatened area(s). 3. As the emergency progresses, the Coordinator will monitor the status of the infrastructure and effect emergency repairs where needed and feasible. 4. The ESF 3 Coordinator will monitor the status of debris on critical evacuation routes and initiate emergency debris clearance and repairs to save lives where needed and feasible............ The particular state plan for the NO area is a separate document which has mysteriously "disappeared" from the state website so we can't see if it was followed or not: SUPPLEMENTS PUBISHED SEAPARATLY: http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1b.pdf 1A - Southeast Louisiana Hurricane and Evacuation Plan So to be blunt Bobert, you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you say there was no plan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:05 AM Washington -- Responsibility for the government's bungled response to Hurricane Katrina extends widely but begins at the top of the Bush administration, which failed before the storm to name a White House, homeland security or other senior aide in command of the looming disaster, congressional investigators reported Wednesday. Four years after the Sept. 11, attacks, administration officials did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency; disregarded early warnings of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and southeast Louisiana; and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the Aug. 29 storm, according to the Government Accountability Office. "A single individual -- directly responsible and accountable to the president of the United States -- should be dedicated to act as the central focal point to lead and coordinate the overall federal response," GAO chief David Walker said, summarizing preliminary findings from 30 pending Katrina-related studies. The blistering report represents the first official findings on the government's performance in Katrina. It is the first of a series of reviews in coming weeks that are expected to fix blame and refocus scrutiny on the administration's handling of the nation's costliest natural disaster, which killed 1,307 people and caused more than $150 billion in damage along the Gulf Coast. ... (SFO Chroniclle) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM The plan is laughable. It was never more than a piece of paper. No 'Office of emergency preparedness' was ever set up and no federal coordinators were on site. In order to implement the plan, federal, state, parish and city governments would have to agree to change and coordinate regulations in order to act in concert. The City and parishes could not afford to spend the sums necessary. Perhaps more important, the political rift between south Louisiana and the rest of the state would have to be resolved before actions could be contemplated and money appropriated. Like most cities, New Orleans is always playing catch-up, since taxes barely cover expenses. The plan completely ignores federal responsibility under Title 33 for protection along the waterways. Even if this cloud 8 1/2 plan had been well along, there is no way a city- any major city- could be evacuated in the lead time given. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM No, Old Guy, apparently we still ain't on the same page and they way you keep gloassing over the rerality of Katrina like it was a debate over how many angels can stand on the end of a pin, it is unlikely that you can be brou7ght around to reality... Most cities have Offices of Emergency Preparednesses... Big deal... Like I said, they are for managable disasteres. Katrina wasn't a managable disaster at the local level and based on ther damage to Mississippi it wasn't even managable on the state level.. Maybe you remembwer after 9/11 the issue of "first reponders" and the mayors and governors pleaded with Bush to put his money where hios mouth was in funding them... Yeah, Bush didn't mind pumping out his chest and boasting about "protecting Americans" but he wrote checks to local and states like man with no arms... Thus, Katrina.. And thus, the buck is finding it's way where it belongs... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Dazbo Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:01 AM Don't know if this is repeating anything from above (forgive me if I haven't got the time to read this mighty tome) but on the BBC last night there was a programme on New Orleans and Katrina. Some of the points raised on the telly by the talking heads were: The building of the levees didn't take into account the soil, which is a soft clay likened to playdough, and as a result the levees were a lot weaker than they were planned to be. Due to man's intervention the coastal marshes and islands that have attenuated the power of hurricans in the past have been lost making the city even more vulnerable. The Corps of Engineers don't have the mandate of the government (Senate or Congress - I can't remember) or the money to rebuild the levees to anything other than what was there before Katrina (i.e. the same strength as those that failed). That large areas of the city that were destroyed shouldn't be rebuilt, especially as the hurricanes are currently getting bigger, stronger and more frequent. The more reclamation that gets done the more vunlerable the city becomes (less protection from the weather and lowering the ground level even more due to the pumping out of the ground water behind the levees). It was horrifying to see just how devastated New Orleans is now the flood waters have been pumped out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM Guest Dazbo- mostly right. 1. It seems that soil tests were inadequate. They are now bringing in better quality clay from the Gulf and tests are being carried out. 2. Yes, the marshlands are decreasing at an alarming rate. Not only does this threaten the City, but valuable breeding grounds for aquatic and terrestrial life are lost. 3. The Corps of Engineers are responsible for building and maintaining the levees along navigable waterways, but- U. S. Congress must authorize the funds. And not only must Congress authorize the funds, but there are several committees and agencies that oversee the spending. These agencies can hold up expenditures almost indefinitely. 4. Various plans call for the restoration of parts of St. Bernard and Jefferson Parishes to marshland. A report due in April (?) will have maps incorporating recommendations. How these plans will be implemented, revised or ignored will be the subject of long debate. 5. Not only pumping of the water from underground, but pumping of oil caused lowering of ground level. Moreover, natural compaction of the soft, clayey sediments over time is a large contributor. 6. "New Orleans" is a metropolitan ares extending over three parishes. The greatest damage was in the Ninth and parts of the Seventh wards in the core area, and in St. Bernard Parish. These were the areas most affected by the failure of levees and walls along navagable waterways. Estimates vary on how much housing was destroyed (cannot be reclaimed); perhaps 60% in the Ninth ward, 30-40% in the southern part of the Seventh Ward. Until a complete survey, house-by-house, is compiled, these figures will continue to vary. Areas of the City to the west and also south (Gretna, etc.) of the river sustained some wind damage, but most housing was not seriously affected. Until the government assessment maps are completed (late Spring?), an accurate numerical assesment of the damage cannot be made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Teribus Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM Refresh: "Oh Please Don't let poor Nelly die" The "Nellie" in this case being the only stated example of a thread where Bobert proclaimed that he has done his homework, but as yet has singularly failed to prove it. As such this thread should in all sincerity be preserved for posterity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM Tsk, tsk, T. There's plenty of material for your needs here. Resorting to slurs on Bobert, well, it's just beneath you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:20 PM Two words, Bobert; Cat Scan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:25 PM Thanks fir the usual attacks, mild as they are, G-zer and T-zer... Must mean that I still got both of you wondering how to defend Bush and hios administartion against the arguments I put forth, ohhhh, well over three hundred posts ago... To which, BTW, I have yet to get an honest rebuttal... Lots of attacks, however, which is good... No, it's real, real good 'cause it means that you guys don't have any defense... And given the recent GAO reports, I don't blame you all for sand-baggin'... I would too if I was trying to defend Bush and his boys on this one... Yeah, I would be doing Mohammed Ali's rope-a-too, too... But, neither of you two have good poker faces.... Not does old Guy... But I admire you fir satying in the game knowing deep inside that the old hillbilly got the strongest hand here... So keep attacking... I love it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM Saw in the New York Times that many people are asking for, and getting re-assessment of the percentage damage to their houses. According to the guidelines, if a house is deemed to have more than 50% damage, it should be destroyed. Most people who have appealed, however, have succeeded in getting the percentage of damage reduced to under 50%, so they can go ahead and repair and rebuild. FEMA, etc., want the houses to be above a certain elevation so that they are unlikely to be flooded again, but there is no such requirement in City regulations. What the outcome will be is up in the air at this time. FEMA is too slow with their evalutions and plans, and is losing credibility. People are just going ahead and doing their thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM Trying to breath any life back into a gutted FEMA is like giving a transfusion to a dead man... Bush and his boys drove a stake right thru FEMA's heart in bustin' it from a cabinet level posotion and slashing it's budget... And now we are hearing that Bush doesn't want to spend the dough to get the levee's up to Cat 5??? Well, yeah, if the feds ain't gonna do what they are supposed to do in getting the levves up to Cat 5 then, hey, even I would qustion rebuilding in the 9th Ward and other low areas... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:01 PM Bush baby mentioned that $85 billion for Katrina again in his state of the onion address, but so far it doesn't look like any has gone to rebuilding levees, hospitals, or housing. FEMA, is still alive enough to make noises, but it will become road kill before too long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM Yeah, Q, Bush brags about allm this dough that he's budgeteed for Katrina but of the $85B he ain't written checks yet for much more than $15B... When the smoke clears this will be like rebuilding Iraq... And we know how that is coming.... Might of fact, Bush announced that he's all done rebuilding Iraq even though he never really spent too much rebuilding it to begin with... Heck, I'd be surprised to see the Bush folks spend $30B in total before saying, "Sorry, ain't our problem..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:41 AM Well, well, well.... Looks as if time lines and organization/funding issues are about to come 'round the bend as Michale Brown is set to testify yet again... Unless he changes his testimony, maybe a few of the Bushi8tes will have to pay a little closer attention this time around... One thing for sure, since the last testimony, the Bush-bloggers have had months to twist the lies into a more believable "product"... Oughtta be interesting... At least this time the Bushites here in Mudville will have their talking points to go by which hasn't been the case up until now with the obvious floundering on their part... Bobert (Columbo) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,P Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM I was thrilled to hear Michael Brown would 'sing' about the 'who cares' attitude the White House had to storm. But then I realized, he's not going to sing. He's just extorting Bush to cover his legal fees. That sterling character is really coming through again. You find yourself unable to tell children to work hard and be honest, and they'll do well in life. They won't. They'll wind up laid off or left to die by creeps like Brown and Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:12 PM (CBS/AP) Top Department of Homeland Security officials were told that New Orleans' levees were breached the day that Hurricane Katrina roared ashore, former disaster chief Michael Brown said Friday, contradicting previous statements by agency officials who said they did not know the levees were toppling until the next day. "I find it a little disingenuous," Brown, who at the time headed the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told a Senate oversight committee. "For them to claim that we didn't have awareness of it is just baloney." Brown also told senators that decisions and policies by the parent Homeland Security Department doomed FEMA to "a path to failure" that led to the government's slow response to the storm. He said that because of a focus on terrorism, natural disasters "had become the stepchild of the Department of Homeland Security." Brown, who quit under fire as chief of the FEMA just days after the Aug. 29 storm devastated much of the Gulf Coast area, said that FEMA's mission was marginalized when it was swallowed by the newly created Homeland Security agency. "There was a cultural clash that didn't recognize the absolute inherent science of preparing for a disaster," he told the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee. "Any time you break that cycle ... you're doomed to failure." He added: "The policies and decisions implemented by the DHS put FEMA on a path to failure." Brown, who resigned shortly after the storm, is widely considered the public face of the government's sluggish response to Katrina. Brown is expected to start naming names of "who knew what the day Katrina hit," CBS News correspondent Susan Roberts reports. A management audit prepared by former FEMA Administrator Michael Brown months before the Aug. 29 storm showed that the agency had a lack of adequate and consistent situational awareness to size up emergencies, and was unable to properly control inventory and track assets, said Sen. Susan Collins, a Maine Republican heading the oversight hearing. The audit, she said, also showed that FEMA misunderstood standard response procedures. "Despite this study, key problems simply were not addressed and, as a result, opportunities to strengthen FEMA prior to Katrina were missed," she said. In documents released before Friday's hearings, twenty-eight government agencies reported that New Orleans levees were breached the day Hurricane Katrina roared ashore, raising questions about whether the government moved quickly enough to rescue people once they realized the levees had broken. ... COmplete article here. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:15 PM Also from CBS: A timeline of e-mails, situation updates and weather reports, pieced together by Senate Democrats, indicates the Bush administration knew as early as 8:30 a.m. on Aug. 29 about levee failures that would ultimately lead to massive flooding of the city and its surrounding parishes. White House spokesman Trent Duffy said President Bush and his top aides were fully aware of the massive flooding, and less concerned whether it was caused by levee breaches, overtoppings or failed pumps, all three of which were being reported at the time. "We knew there was flooding and that's why the No. 1 effort in those early hours was on search and rescue, and saving life and limb," Duffy said. Shortly after the disaster, Mr. Bush said, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." He later said his comment was meant to suggest that there had been a false sense of relief that the levees had held when the storm passed, only to break a few hours later. Democrats said the documents showed there was little excuse for the tardy federal response. "The first communication came at 8:30 a.m.," said Senator Joe Lieberman, top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. "So it is inexplicable to me how those responsible for the federal response could have woken up Tuesday morning unaware of this obviously catastrophic situation." .... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???? Mebbe hangovers? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:28 PM The New York Times also had the story today about the ignored message and the failure to move. Brown is showing the bush administration was critically negligent. The aerial photo, reproduced in the Times, shows the breaks in the 17th Street Canal, taken the day Katrina arrived by a federal emergency official, needs no words. A FEMA official heard of the break in the morning, hitched a ride on a helicopter and confirmed the seriousness of the break, then telephoned his report to headquarters in Washington. Chertoff received the report at 9:27 pm that night. White House officials have now confirmed that they received the report. The president is caught in his lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM Let me also refer back to Brown's earlier testimony before a Congressional comitte when he said he personally told Bush on Saturday, August ***27th****, that the Gulf Coast was about to be hit by upwards of a Cat 5 hurricane... Thias was two full days before the storm hit!!! What did Bush do??? Well, for one, he kept on vacationing... After that he flew to California for a little politicin'.... Might have even given his patented "My job is to protect the American people" BS/lie speech??? Coming up: The Natiional Response Plan that was written by Bush's inner circle... Yeah, the Bushites here haven't responded to my original thoughts on the NRP but.... What's the sound??? Can it be the NRP train coming 'round the bend??? Lordy, Lordy, thias is lookin' worser and worser for drunk-frat-boy and the inner circle... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 11 Feb 06 - 11:16 AM ASHINGTON Feb 11, 2006 (AP)— Top White House officials were warned that Hurricane Katrina would be "our worst nightmare" the day the storm roared ashore, former federal disaster chief Michael Brown says. An assertive Brown told senators Friday that he described levee failures and massive flooding last Aug. 29 to chief of staff Andrew Card, deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin and others in the White House. He said the Homeland Security Department was among a half-dozen government agencies that received regular briefings that day from him and other officials by way of video conference calls. Administration officials have said they did not realize the severe damage Katrina had caused until after the storm had passed. But under oath, Brown told the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee he could not explain why his appeals failed to produce a faster response. "I expected them to cut every piece of red tape, do everything they could … that I didn't want to hear anybody say that we couldn't do everything they humanly could to respond to this," Brown said about a video conference with administration officials in which President Bush briefly participated the day before Katrina hit. "Because I knew in my gut this was the bad one." In the end, the hurricane claimed more than 1,300 lives, uprooted hundreds of thousands more and caused tens of billions of dollars worth of damage in New Orleans and other Gulf Coast communities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 06 - 06:14 PM Well, well, well, Amos... I am speachless here... I figured by now Karl Rove would have this one covered like ugly on a gorilla??? Is he on vacation, too??? I mean, here we have the usual cast of Muscat Bush apologists pacing the floor waiting for their "talking points" so they can jump right in with guns a' blazin' accusing this guy or that guy for this or that but what do we have??? Silence??? No, it ain't me that is speachless... It's the Bushites here... I can't believe my ears!!! What, are they going to just conceed a point??? This ain't like 'um at all, Amos... I'm worried... No, more like concerned... Maybe they is grouping behind a bush (pun inteneded) waiting to jump out like boogiemen??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 11 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM You know what's strange? I ran across the term "femy provinces." I wondered what that meant and found a definition. Femy provinces are provinces under military administration. Femy is the plural usage. The singular is fema. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM Hmmmmmmmmm, AR??? Does give a feller food fir thought, don't it??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:05 AM Republicans brand Katrina response a national failure · Bush and his homeland security chief singled out · Details leaked as New Orleans enjoys parade Dan Glaister in Los Angeles Monday February 13, 2006 The Guardian The response to Hurricane Katrina was "a national failure" and "an abdication of the most solemn obligation to provide for the common welfare", according to details from the first of three anticipated reports into the disaster, published yesterday. The report, by a committee of Republicans in the Houseof Representatives, declared that "all the little pigs built houses of straw". The report, entitled A Failure of Initiative, is due to be published on Wednesday. It criticises the homeland security chief, Michael Chertoff, saying his detachment from events led him to implement federal emergency response measures "late, ineffectively or not at all". ... (The Guardian, 2-13-06) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:43 PM Yeah, Amos, yer right... Seesm that the House Repubs, believe it or not, are on the verge of issuing a report which is highly critical of Bush and his administration's handling of Katrina!!! House Repubs!!! Hey, I could almostr believe the Senate doing this but the House Repubs just don't do this, no matter what... Have ya noticed the recent "silence" from the Bushites on this thread, Amos??? I can't believe that Karl Rove is going to conceed this point. Maybe these guys finally have figured out that they can't just lie their ways outta screw ups... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:47 PM Where are the loudmouths who were defending the actions of the Federal administration while the folks in NO were getting knocked down? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:20 AM In hiding, Bruce... They are awaiting their marching orders and talking points... Stay tuned... The report comes out tomorrow and you can bet the Karl Rove and the boys are busily making chicken salad out of chicken sh*t... But you can bet that Rove will have the Bushites up to speed soon... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:49 PM Might be better than you constantly making Chicken sh*t out of Chicken salad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 06 - 08:55 PM Well, given the latest reports by both the Congress and even the White House it is apparent that Bush was no more prepared to "protect the American people", irregardless of what causes the catastrophy, than before 9/11... Even Michael Brown went on network news and when asked what he would say to Bush if he could, Brown said "told you so"... These were the arguments that I presented here in this thread a long time ago and they stiull hold solid today... I refresh this thread now and then just as a reminder to the blind Bushite's here that all is not well with the Bush administration... Yeah, I know that the Bushites have long conceeded that Bush screwed this up and, hence, prolly won't even post to this thread but, hey, here is proff positive that Bush is a screw up and a liar and I'll refresh this thread now and then until Bush is no longer a menace to the United States and the world... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Q as guest Date: 25 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM I doubt that that there has ever been a worse president. The next hurricane season is only about 100 days away. I am afraid it may lead to another (name of hurricane)gate. Work on the waterways and levees (federal) is way too slow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM Yeah, Q, looks as if 60% og the repairs to the levee is still incomplete and when completed will only protect N.O. from a Cat 2 storm??? Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results (Einstien)... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Snuffy Smif Date: 20 Apr 06 - 12:42 PM Price no object in N.O. car-removal City appears to choose top-dollar contract Times-Picayune Wednesday, March 22, 2006 By James Varney Staff writer In seeking a contract to remove thousands of flooded and wrecked cars from New Orleans, Mayor Ray Nagin's administration recommended that the city go with the highest quoted price for the job, a review of the 14 proposals submitted last year shows. It appears the chosen proposal, a $1,000-per-car bid from Colorado-based CH2M Hill, was nearly triple the cost of at least three other bids, records show. The gap between CH2M Hill and the other companies cannot be precisely ascertained, because not every proposal included a price, and some of those that did listed tasks that others did not. It is clear, however, that CH2M Hill's price has remained relatively constant, because administrators confirmed last week that the contract still being finalized would cost approximately $23 million and the number of uninsured junkers still clogging city streets is between 20,000 and 25,000. That contrasts with $350 per car, the "firm, fixed price," offered by a consortium led by the Shaw Group, which a five-person review committee ranked as the second-best bid, just two points behind CH2M Hill, according to the committee's scoring sheet. At least two other offers, from Contingency Management Solutions of Metairie and from MWH Global of Denver, were in the same ballpark as Shaw's, records show. The contract for removing "abandoned and damaged vehicles" is a professional services one, meaning the mayor is not required by law to select the lowest bidder. On the other hand, price was supposed to figure as 20 percent of each proposal's grade, but the committee gave almost every submission the full 20 points in that category, meaning no advantage accrued to the cheaper submissions. Jack Dupree, president of Southern Scrap Materials Co., which partnered with Shaw, said those curious figures are a warning sign that the contract doesn't pass the smell test. "Something's not adding up here," he said. "I've never seen so little transparency in a deal, and it's a mystery why, if you've got a price and picked a winner, nothing has been signed. Why haven't they done it at the price CH2M Hill said they could do it for?" Controversy has begun to swirl around the issue almost seven months after Katrina made thousands of water-stained, abandoned cars as much a symbol of the city's streets as potholes were before the storm. Queries first arose after revelations that a Texas car-crushing company had offered, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, to pay the city $100 per junked car. The bid, made informally by K&L Auto Crushers at one of Nagin's town hall meetings, still stands, although the terms would have to be renegotiated, K&L's Dan Simpson said last week. Making money A rarely invoked city ordinance could also pave the way for the rapid and potentially lucrative removal of the vehicular blight, according to some legal experts. At the original price and with the original estimate of 30,000 flooded cars, K&L's offer would have netted the cash-starved city $3 million. In contrast, the city is proceeding with the CH2M Hill deal, which includes towing, cataloging and storing the cars at an estimated cost of about $23 million, administrators said. Thus, even at somewhat lower rates, the city would have taken in more than $3 million if it went with K&L or one of the other car-crushing companies that have proposed similar arrangements, according to the State Police. Meanwhile, as some national conservative pundits pounded Nagin on the topic this week, the administration appeared to circle its wagons. Neither the mayor nor his staffers have answered questions about the car-removal contract in the past few days. In the face of the Nagin administration's silence, New Orleans City Council members questioned the deal, with some of them saying a costly arrangement makes no sense if feasible money-making ideas are on the table. "It seems to me it would have made sense to investigate this," said Councilwoman Renee Gill Pratt. "If someone was willing to pay us money, why wouldn't we want to do that and save money, too?" Gill Pratt said she plans to raise the issue at the council's budget committee meeting Thursday. Slow pace? Council members also expressed frustration at the protracted pace of events. In an interview last week before the car-crushing offers and proposal discrepancies made headlines, Parking Administrator Richard Boseman estimated it could be another six months from the time the deal is signed before the cleanup is finished, though he held out hope it could be quicker. Either way, it's been too long, Councilman Jay Batt argued. "To take six more months at least, when maybe we could have the cars off the street right now? That's just ridiculous," he said. Batt said he's not sure the car-crusher options are solid, given they have been presented informally. Nevertheless, if the Nagin administration were less secretive about its contracting practices, some of this embarrassment might have been avoided, Batt said. "The mayor is tweaking his contracts while the streets look terrible," he said. Such comments suggest the pending contract with CH2M Hill, whose press office has also not responded to phone calls, is poised to become another contentious issue between a council and an administration already at odds on a host of post-Katrina spending matters. More spending matters could arise when the second half of the car job is being considered. In the short term, the city is simply inking a deal with CH2M Hill to cart off the cars and warehouse them. Future work, on the other hand, will involve a second contract that includes the remediation and recycling of environmentally hazardous materials and then the scrapping of the cars. In theory, the city could make some money back at that point, but the outline of that contract hasn't even been sketched out yet, let alone advertised, officials said. The holdups on the current contract remain maddeningly vague to some players such as Dupree of Southern Scrap. City officials said they are simply awaiting the green light from FEMA, which could reimburse the city 100 percent of the costs if it approves the contract. But the Federal Emergency Management Agency said it is waiting on paperwork from the city. Dupree accused the city of shifting the scope of the work and blamed some of the delays on those constant changes. "The scope of this thing has been changed by the city four or five times already," he said. "This whole thing should be much further along, and we're severely frustrated by what's happened." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM Bottom line, N.O. is broke, as in tapped out, and must rely on FEMA approving the funds... If FEMA approves this contract it will be just one more failure at the federal level, to go with all the rest of them upon which I have allready posted... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:47 PM bobert, you are the chief malcontent of Mudcat. Billions have been give to NO by the Feds. The Mayor is simply utilizing his ineptness as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM Wonder why the Mayor did not accept, months ago, the offer from a company that WOULD PAY the city $100 per car. This is a firm that would have brought in crushers and would then sell the scrap to steel mills. Two things stand out here - 8 months later and the city still has done nothing about the 30,000 autos littering the streets and apparently bobert did not read Snuffy's post very well.......... actually, the last part doen't stand out as it is becoming very apparent that reading and understanding is not a prequisite when one's opinion has been predetermined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM Meanwhile, emergency planners in all of the Gulf coast states (including the ones with Republican governors) are trying to convince the Bush administration to make FEMA an independent agency with presidential oversight (as is was before it was incorporated into the DHS), while they try to prepare for the next hurricane season. The reason they give being that FEMA as a stand alone agency can be run by people who are experts in managing emergencies, rather than in fighting terrorism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM Agreed that FEMA should be independent. GWB did not want it incorporated into DHS to begin with. I was never able to find why he eventually gave into this scenario I do know he was adamant at first with regard to it not being included. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM Bush, if you will recall G-zer, didn't even want the Department of Homeland Security... But after it was formed, it was part of his administration meaning that he was responsible for its successes of failures much like he was responsible for the successes (which there were few) and the failures (of which there were many0 as CEO of Harkin. Inc... See, what you don't seem tou understand is that what folks on the other side of the isle see in Bush. First, he is incomeptant... He has failed or gone AWOL at everything he has tried... Second, and this is more damning, he isn't smart enough to listen to lots of ideas... Oh yeah, we've all heard the various Bushites on NPR say that he listens to lots of different ideas but, bottom line, when you surround yourself with idealogues who think like you then chances are you aren't getting the big picture... No matter how much attention you, G-zer, want to pay N.O.'s mayor, all you are doing is trying to shift the the focus away from yer guy's collasal failures... I mean, let's face it, even though you might not admit it, if you had to turn your family's business over, whcih BTW was your only source of retirement income, you wouldn't turn it over to Bush... As fir me being Mudcat's biggest malcontent??? If that means the one here in the Catbox who most detest's the current corrupt Republican regime, then thanks for the compliment... Bobert (Malcontent an' proud of it....) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:58 AM Whatever the deal to remove the cars, FEMA will have to approve and pay. Many offers have been made to do work, some speculative and some by outfits with no experience. FEMA must approve and pay. These concerns are small compared with the slow and low-grade preparations by FEMA and the Corps of Engineers to meet future hurricanes. The Corpse of Engineers is repairing and rebuilding the levees, etc. only to Category 3 storm level. And this level will not be attained before the hurricane season begins. "....the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is on an aggressive path to repair and improve the flood control system. The USACE is on schedule to have repairs to damaged areas completed by June 2006, TO HAVE ALL FEDERAL LEVEES CONSTRUCTED TO AUTHORIZED HEIGHTS BY SEPTEMBER 2007, AND TO HAVE FULLY AUTHORIZED LEVELS OF PROTECTION AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE SYSTEM COMPLETED BY 2010 (caps mine). 2007? 2010? And only to Category 3 storm levels? Keep your fingers crossed! Above is from the Advisory on Base Flood Elevations for Jefferson Parish issued by FEMA April 12, 2006. This and other advisories available from the Times-Picayune website, www.nola.com. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Snuffy Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:09 AM In other words Bobert will support any asshole as long as he is a Democrat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Apr 06 - 04:05 PM Can only be better than Rummy, Crummy and Dummy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM Yo, Snuff... Nice try but if you'd been 'round here a little longer you'd know that I've made no bones about the fact that I support and vote for the Green Party... Most Dems don't impress me at all... Bobert (Proud to be Green) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:30 PM Nothing like voting for someone you know is going to be an automatic loser. This allows that voter to badger everyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM Beats the heck out of votin' for corporate shills, GUEST... If you think that Tom Jefferson would vote for a Repubocrat then you are no student of democracy... And I don't "badger everyone"... Just crooks, liars, thieves and dumb folks... If you ain't in that group than you have nuthin' to fear... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM Besides, Bobert is much too smart to be even 75% as stupid as you think he is, Guestoid. You are missing the picture big time. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM Hmmmmmm??? I'll put the Wes Ginny Slide Rule on that one, Amos, an see if I can figurate just how stupid GUEST thinks I am??? No matter, here we are at pushin' 400 posts on this thread an' not one Bushite has rebutted anything I have put forward??? Oh sure, they have called names and tries to divert the thread the best they can but as far as I've seen, it's been nuthin' by rope-a-dope on their part, with the emphasis on the dope.... Can I can any Bushite to come up with an intellegent rebuttal??? I mean anything??? Bush blew the crap out of this one and it showed that, inspite of his boasting that his job was to protect the American people, when the smoke cleared, those boastings were nuthin; more than that: boasts.... Yeah, Bush can talk the talk, but he can't walk the walk... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 06 - 07:38 AM Well, now that you mentioned it, Amos, I had not really given any thought to percentages but perhaps we can settle at 70. Don't really know the guy and judging his intelligence level from afar doesn't seem cricket to me. Probably sorry you brought it up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: autolycus Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM C (as in Cat), C, and there was me thinking that anyone who votes feels free to badger all the other parties. C. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Snuffy Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM Bobert the Naginite wins by default because he is 100% stupid. Too stupid to recognize a fact when one is presented. Amos an Bobert are standing side by side. Someone yells "will the dumbest one step forward" They both step forward. So the person yells "will the dumbest one step back" They both step back. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: autolycus Date: 30 Apr 06 - 06:01 PM Extremely powerful argumentation there, clear premises, tight logic, all the evidence one could wish for. Eat your heart out Freddy Ayer. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM I'd like to enter Snuffy's above post as Exhibit #198 that the Bushites know thay have no defense of the positions and arguments I put forward some 380 posts ago... Thanks, Snuffster, for so elequently showin' yer Bushite ass... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 23 May 06 - 02:12 PM One o' them New Oleans crooks Bobert wants to pertect: bribe-talker is Democrat Rep. William Jefferson of New Orleans, LAA businessman who paid bribes to a member of the US House of Representatives and chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, has pleaded guilty to a two-count indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit bribery and the payment of bribes to a public official, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Vernon L. Jackson, 53, of Louisville, Kentucky, entered his plea in US District Court in Alexandria, VA. Jackson faces up to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $500,000, under the terms of his plea agreement with prosecutors. Also, as part of his plea, Jackson has agreed to cooperate with law enforcement officials in an ongoing probe of public corruption related to telecommunications deals in Africa and elsewhere. While court papers refer to the suspect congressman as "Representative A," the identity of the alleged bribe-talker is Democrat Rep. William Jefferson of New Orleans, LA, according to a source close to the investigation. Jefferson is serving his eighth term in the House. According to the criminal information, from 1998 through this year, Jackson had been the Chairman and CEO of iGate, Inc., a Kentucky firm developing technology which is designed to transmit data, audio, and video communications over copper wire. In his plea, Jackson admits that in 2000, he was introduced to Rep. Jefferson, who was active in promoting US trade and business in Africa with other members of the Black Caucus. Rep. Jefferson allegedly provided official assistance to Jackson in persuading the US Army to test iGate's broadband two-way technology and other iGate products. Jefferson's official assistance led to the placement of iGate on the US General Services Administration schedule, making iGate products eligible for use in various federal contracts. Ultimately, iGate's products were used by the US Army at Fort Stewart, Georgia. Jackson further admits that in early 2001, Rep. Jefferson told him that he would not continue to provide official assistance to Jackson's company, iGate, unless Jackson agreed to pay a nominee company ostensibly maintained in the names of Rep. Jefferson's spouse and children. Jackson agreed and signed a consulting services agreement committing iGate to pay the nominee company various things of value, thereby concealing Jackson's payments in exchange for Jefferson's performance of official acts in aiding iGate's business in Africa and elsewhere. According to the FBI, Jackson made monthly payments of $7,500 to Jefferson, as well as a percentage of Jackson's gross sales. Rep. Jefferson also received a percentage of capital investments raised for iGate, and options for iGate stock. In his plea, Jackson admitted to allowing over $400,000 to be paid to the nominee company and that the consulting services agreement was designed to conceal the illegal nature of the payments demanded by Rep. Jefferson. In return for the agreement by Jackson to pay "things of value," Rep. Jefferson agreed to perform numerous official acts in furtherance of iGate's business, including efforts to influence high-ranking officials in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon and elsewhere through official correspondence and in-person meetings; Jefferson's travel to those countries to setup these meetings; and meetings with personnel of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, the official export credit agency of the United States, in order to help with potential financing for iGate business deals in those countries. "According to his plea, Vernon Jackson got favorable treatment from a Congressman because he paid for it," said Alice S. Fisher of the Criminal Division of the US Department of Justice. "Public corruption is not a victimless crime -- all of us lose when people believe public officials can be brought. Those who conspire with elected officials to subvert the integrity of our government will be prosecuted." While Vernon Jackson is scheduled for sentencing in this bribery scheme, so far Rep. William Jefferson has not been indicted, nor is there a great deal of attention being paid to the case by members of the House or the mainstream news media. Rep. Jefferson is the subject of yet another ongoing criminal investigation. In August 2005, federal agents searched his home in New Orleans and his home and car in Washington, DC, as well as the home and office of his campaign accountant in New Orleans. As part of the investigation, the US home of the Vice President of Nigeria also was searched. During the raid on Rep. Jefferson's home, FBI agents say that they found a large amount of cash in Jefferson's freezer. In addition, in the midst of the Katrina disaster in New Orleans, allegations arose that Rep. Jefferson used emergency response personnel and transportation, including members of the National Guard, to retrieve "packages" from his home. These were people attempting to rescue and protect victims of Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 23 May 06 - 03:05 PM Excuse me. But I fail to see where Bobert said he wanted to defend Rep. Jefferson or Vernon Jackson. Your assertion seems to be hollow chest-beating. Note, too, that the people of New Orleans have just re-elected Mister Nagin as Mayor. Obviously he must have done something right. Or was it a Diebold operation in your book? I notice he didn't have to ask for a recount. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 23 May 06 - 04:21 PM No, we don't want to protect any crooks. What we want to do is get ALL of the crooks out of office. Both the Republican crooks, AND the Democrat crooks. I suspect Bobert is in agreement with me on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 May 06 - 08:22 PM Yeah, seems GUEST hasn't been 'round here to long... I ain't got no love fir Dems either... If they are crooks then boot 'um... Crooks is crooks... Why, GUEST, would you go thru the trouble to make the big letters when the cru7x of yer post was "Look at me. I just arrived here and I figure I'll just attack Bobert from my position of ignorance!!!" Well, pal, it worked... You sho nuff brought some serious attention to the fact that you are totally ignorant when it comes to professing that you know much about about me or my political leanings... Nice job.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 May 06 - 08:25 PM Oh, an' for tbhe record, maybe you'd like to be the first to offer any respectable rebuttal to the charges I have made against the Bush administration in this thread... God knows, no one else has come close other than doing what you just did... Try to change the subject... Or call me names... Been lotta that but nuthin' that would get so much as a "Gentleman's C" in Debating 101... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 31 May 06 - 10:03 PM A couple facts - I have been in New Orleans, early on and a return trip with the Red Cross. A few weeks after the the water dropped, a recycling company offered the City a $50 per car fee for every destroyed vehicle. That means that they would pay the city of NO $50 for every car they would crush or shred and remove from the city. NOW, the illustrious Mayor is receiving bids where THE CITY will pay $500 to $1000 per car for the same process. Our tax dollars at work, eh? And don't give me any BS about FEMA approving it - the City has received the funds and it is theirs to do with as they please. The Mayor has a better chance of kickbacks with this plan. Oh yes - the second fact - bobert has not a clue as to what he has been saying since the start of this thread. A simple fact of an individual (bobert) trying to be more than one could possibly be with the meager resources available. Keep in mind, many of us have been there. Were you, bobert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: SINSULL Date: 31 May 06 - 10:30 PM Today, I spoke with a young woman who spent her vacation with the Animal Rescue people in New Orleans. The situation is a mess. There are literally thousands of cats and dogs still losse in the streets BECAUSE they were not neutered prior to the disaster and so continue to multiply. 4000 feeding stations have been established but they do not have enough volunteers to keep them filled. Spay or neuter your pets, people. And if you are thinking of adopting a pet, look into Katrina rescues. The 2006-07 Hurricane Season starts this week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 May 06 - 10:41 PM Give yerself a big pat on the back, GUEST... Nevermind, you just did that... No, I haven't been to N.O. since Katrina... Does that make the Bush administration any less the utter failure that it has been??? This thread ain't 'bout me, GUEST... It's about a president who after 9/11 went out and said over and over abnd over that his job was to "protect the American people"... Heck, he probably said those exact words a thousand times and then came Katrina... Well, Katrine could have been a terrorist attack anywhere in the U.S. It didn't have to be a hurrican.. What showed is that Bush had been lieing about making the right kind of decisions and spending priorities that, ahhhh, would have actually had to occur to protect the American people... In other words, Bush lied... He was not prepared to protect the American people... Thi8s thread is all about that, GUEST... It isn't about junk cars or towing fees... It isn't about you going to N.O or me not going to N.O... It's about a man who choze to lie to the American people hoping that nuthin' weould happen to expose the lies... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,fumblefingers Date: 31 May 06 - 11:20 PM It works from the bottom up despite what you say. The individual,City/County or Parish/State/Federal.That's the chain of responsibility. We had a tornado go through here not long ago that destroyed a number of homes and killed several people. Neither the Governor nor the President came around. FEMA didn't show up at all. Nobody expected them to. They understood, as do most people, that looking after every city and town in the country is not the baliwick of the President of the United States. That's why all these levels of government exist in the first place. Why not just own up to being a Bush basher who is looking for any and everything to blame the president for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 31 May 06 - 11:49 PM Hey Bobert. Been away a while and checked in and figured your name might be at the start of the "KatrinaGate" thread. And since tomorrow begins the '06 hurricane season, I'll throw in a couple of centavos. I think I made the point somewhere on this forum that New Orleans was turned over to the federal govt. in Feb of 2003. New Orleans defaulted on lots of federal loans and the feds took over. It was by design. Ten square mails of DC isn't much of a lab for terrorism, so they branched out. The Dept of Homeland Security took over the running of New Orleans in Feb '03 and consolidated 45 city offices into 8. Answerable directly to and only to DHS. Then they waited. And when the storm hit they blew the levees. Instant catastrophe to see how plans work when they're moved from the drawing board to the field. And Katrina provided lots of instructive data. Ring a city with troops and turn back relief convoys. Unconstitutionally collect guns. Land foreign troops on American soil. Claim it's all a big "turf war" and "incompetence" and "lack-of-funding" problem and have the govt-controlled media sell that to Americans dumb enough to think a plane with a tank full of kerosene could bring down a 110 story steel tower. Anyway, the criminally complicit media reported Katrina as a category 5 hurricane for months, but now we know it was a cat 3. That news dribbled out slowly and was phrased in a way intended to make us think they were analyzing records and were downgrading it in hindsight. What BS. They knew AT THE TIME IT WAS IN PROGRESS that it was a 3, but they also knew they'd have to sell the death and destruction in a way that would make sense to the toob-heads, so a category 5 it was. So NOAA and the news media is in league with our terrorist govt. Just another branch of the terrorist govt. It'll be interesting to see what they have in store for us this year. Have all those points been made? Too lazy to look at the whole thread. Hope you're well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Guest from Texas Date: 31 May 06 - 11:52 PM The above is from the Texas Guest. Forgot to sign. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:05 PM Well, well, well... Good to hear from ya, my friend... Has been awhile... You see what I'm having to put up with these days, don't cha... Like fumblefingers and his buds... They will make every argument they can to protect their man... They will never consider that maybe the guy is a screw-up... So they say stuff like, "Bu8sh can't be there to kiss every booboo, can he??? Well, iof course he can't... That isn't the issue... The issue is about protecting massive population centers... Ya' don't do that be stripping out the funding for FEMA... Ya' don't do that by appointing yer old college drinking buddies to jobs that require skills other than knowing how to tap a keg... You don't do that by not living up to yer obligations to maintain the levee system... N.O. was a disaster waiting to happen and the Bush administartion sat by, evn after it had happened, in denial... That's the real story here... It's a story of gross incompetence... Like what about the National Response Plan that the Bush folks had worked out??? Where was it displayed??? Hey, fumbler, I'm asking you a reasonable question... What about Bush's National Response Plan??? Oh, you didn't get the memo??? Hadn't heard of it???? Hmmmmmmm??? Hey, don'ty feel too bad... Seesm that the folks who were supposed to impliment it hadn't either... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 01 Jun 06 - 09:48 PM http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/ts_nm/weather_hurricanes_flood_dc_1 Incomplete system blamed for Katrina crisis NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - An incomplete system of defenses built in pieces over 40 years was responsible for the flooding that devastated New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina last year, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said on Thursday. A few critical links failed in the system of earthen levees and concrete floodwalls designed to protect the city, the report said. The region's flood protection system, built by the Corps over the past 40 years, was compromised by "incompleteness in the system" and inconsistent standards of construction and protection levels. The eight-volume, 6,100-page report by the Interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force is one of the most extensive to date in the effort to find out what allowed storm damage to spiral out of control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Q as guest Date: 01 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM Watched on Anderson Cooper the Corpse of Engineers building away on their levees and gates to protect NO. Only to level 3. And they won't make it before the start of the hurricane season. What fumble feathers and others can't get in their skulls is that the Navigation Canal and supporting levees which couldn't stop the surge from Lake Ponchartrain are the responsibility of the Corps of Engineers and ultimately the Federal government since they are part of the internationl waterways system. This is all spelled out in the bumff (federal regulations) previously discussed in this and other NO threads. What will be the next failure of the most incompetent federal administration that the U. S. A. has ever had? (even with his mucked-up eyeglasses, Bobert can still see more clearly than some posting here. Didja get a new pair yet? I am still getting used to the new lens installation). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM Yep, it is all the fault of GWB - all of it!!!!!!!! Just ask 'Q' and Bobert. My only question is how GWB started the hurricane and how he did the guidance so it hit where it did. Other than that, my mind is completely secure in the fact............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM No, Guest, this ain't got one danged thing do do with a hurricane but Bush's lies... He said he had it covered... He went around the country sayin' that his job was to protect the American people and, when the chips were down, he wasn't... He lied!!! Hey, he's the CEO and he should have had the right people and the right ideas in place... GHe didn't!!! Yeah, he boasted of having things covered but... ...he didn't!!! No, this could have been some terrorist plot that had disabled an American city... It didn't have to be a hurricane... Bush said he was ready but... ...he wasn't!!! That's the way it was, GUEST... You can go on defending the Bush administration's response to Katrina until the cows come home but guess what??? Give??? Yer guy ain't presidential material.... Not that I liked Slick Willie much more but Slick Willie would have eaten up 9/11 and had the feds ready for a Katrina... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM My only question is how GWB started the hurricane and how he did the guidance so it hit where it did. Come off it. Going by what I read from the "Bush camp" defending the president at the time, it would appear that even I as a nobody living in the UK had more clue about the course of the hurricane and the degree of destruction than the president of the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM Yeah Slick Willy will eat just about anything including a Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 02 Jun 06 - 12:15 AM Here's How Bush created Katrina Gate: Him and his evil oil company friends imported cheap oil from countrys that hate us and made so much cheap gas from it. This made them think like they got the US by the 'nads, they get all rowdy and a bunch of them crash the twin towers in NYC amongst other things. Meanwhile his Evil Detroit buds start in to making big gas hog SUV's and such that the avereage level headed conservation minded US consumer couldn't resis. That caused a lot of polution and an increased demand for the cheap gas. At the sane time his other evil cattle rancher comrades down in SA keep clearing the rainforest to make way for a few cows per acre. This causes more greenhouse gas and global warming. He adds to this global warimg by refusing to sign Kyoto simply because up and comming worse poluters than the US are exempt. The resultant Global warming and polution causes increasingly worse hurricane seasons. One day a real bad one pops up on the radar headed for NO. Bush decides will not help out New Orleans because they ain't paying enough taxes and if a bunch 'em drown it will reduce the burden on the government which he has already run into the ground with his illegal wars and so forth. He decides to hold back on everything, blame it on the locals down there and the democrats who demanded the creation DHS and then demanded that FEMA be part of DHS. So now we have a few average, honest, intellignt citizens who are slowly exposing his scheme and educating the ignorant majority to his evil ways. Gee. ain't life horrible here in the US? I think I will tie some old leaky innertubes together and see if I can make it to Cuba where the government functions correctly. F |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM I'll buy you a ticket, F, fir yer one way flight to Havana... Yer sarcasim oughta play well down there... 402 postas and still not one well thoyught out rebuttal to the original charges I made in this thread... I think that is a record for the Bushites... But they sho nuff get credit for: 1. Trying to highjack this thread 2. Name calling 3. Sarcasim 4. Ignmorance 5. All of the above... And the beat goes on.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM Nobody is trying to defend Bush. You automatically assert that anything against what you claim is the "real" problem is a Bush defense. It makes the whole thread appear to be a Bush attack and a defense of the inept, corrupt local government in Louisiana in an effort to put all the blame on one person. That is why you will not any rebuttal of your charges mr. prosecutor, judge and jury. Now if bush had been a Latino gang leader sentenced to die you would be defending him. Your logic is as sloppy as your typing. You are clearly an old burned out anti-establishment Hippy, stuck in the past. Another crybaby maggot that enjoys the good life in America while crying and sucking snot about the current state of affairs rather than going forward from here. If you want some thing to bitch about, som injustice to trumpet, consider this: About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. Three-fourths of the deaths are children under the age of 5 F. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM PS: Will you feel guilty the next time you chow down on a Whopper knowing that about one person dies from lack of food for every chew? The fact that you cleaned your glases with an abrasive highlights your piss poor judgement. F |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM bobert, you wouldn't/couldn't accept or recognize a rebuttal if your life depended on it. I am convinced you do the "Devil's advocate" bit. Benefit of the doubt for you. Or, you have to be Twins because one person can't be that friggin' naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:59 PM LOL... First of all, I don't eat no Whopper's... Might of fact I don't eat no 4 legged critters at all... Mase a deal wid 'um in the 60's... They don't chew on me and I won't chew on them... It's held up now since then... Second of all, F-ster, if you'd like to come out from behind yer mask, sign in as a real person who is traceable and transparent then I'll go head to head wid you on who has done more work to help folks in poverty... And I can provide references... But I'm not going to match resume's with someone who is too cowardly to come out and put their own experiences as a tranparent memebr against mine... Heck, you could make up anything... Like I said, come on out and we can rumble... Lets see? What else??? Well, given I have yet to see a rebuttal, inspite of using my spare pair of glasses which see as well as the scratched ones, I reckon not much... Oh yeah, I don't bash Bush... But I sho nuff bash his policies... Heck, I wouldn't mind sittin' down wid him over a cold beer... Of course, he would order pretzels... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM bobert, can you say "avoidance of the issue". What difference does it make if I know your Social Security number or just call you Bozo. You have been stopped in your tracks and your ability to keep up the false rehtoric has been stymied. However, I find it somewhat surprising that you would simply stop as opposed to continuing with your inane Bullshit. Perhaps it is time for you to speak on something you are aware of factually. Take your time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM What ever you eat, you are eatin' good in the neighborhood while others are starving to death. As to why you have not had any rebuttals, how do you rebut a brain fart? I don't think anybody here denies that Bush made mistakes. Nobody is perfect. The question is who else made mistakes and what lead to these mistakes. Bush may be guilty of some incomptency but you choose to focus entirely on that part and magnify it so it fills your whole field of (fuzzy) vision blotting out any other contributing factors. You refuse to take in the whole picture. This may sound like a personal attack but it is "food" for thought. I saw on the Discovery Channel that the human species did not start gaining much intelligence until they became omnnivores. They said it was the Iron in meat that created new and improved brain cells. F |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM What exactly is the issue you think Bobert is avoiding, Fernando? What proposition are you putting forward, stated in plain English? "Bush's management of events related to Katrina and the devastation of New Orleans was competent and timely." "Bush tried to do the right thing but was foiled by (a) incompetent underlings and (b) local corruption on the part of the State government and the mayor of NO." What are you saying, aside from the ad hominem mischaracterizations, if anything? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:29 PM I think Fernando is suggesting that Bobert is the cause of world hunger. At least that's what it looks like from here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:32 PM Perhaps, F-ster, you would like to elaborate on jsut what you7 think a good president is responsible for??? It was his team that bungled the National Response Plan... It was his team that didn't activate what little resources were left in FEMA after he and his team gutted FEMA... It was his team that reduced the funding for maintenance on the levees prio0r to Katrina... It was Bush himself that rather than take Katrina seriously even after the levees wer breached who elected to go on a campaign trip to California... If outright incompetence is what yer looking for, F, then I'm beginning to understand what the "F" is for... As for yer accusations that I haven't done my share of lifting in the war of p[overty, I'm still waiting for you to come clean on how much lifting you have done??? But you won't do that becuase it will expoase you as a blowhard fake... So until then, fire away from the safety of yer little Caprice trunk... Real friggin' brave, fella... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM Amos got it right for once: "Bush tried to do the right thing but was foiled by (a) incompetent underlings and (b) local corruption on the part of the State government and the mayor of NO." Who would have drowned or suffered from the flod if NO had been evacuated? Mohammad Bobsterino sits bravely on top of his trunk to do his sniping so that makes it OK. He is so one sided he still can't admit to the whole pixture and accuses anyone who does of trying to protect Bush. C'mon talk and about the whole scenario not just the ones that you like to gloat about. F |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM Ahhhhh, F.... Do you even know anuything abouth the National Response Plan??? I don't think so and if you think that is snipin' then you are one ignorant, and well as cowardly, person... I don't have to snipe... I'm a real person with transparency... Real people don't snipe... Only cowards and low life's snipe... You make these wild-ass accusations about me from the safety of anonymity.... Like I said, real people don't snipe... Only cowards... You have added nuthing to this thread... You seem to have no basic understanding of the positions... I doubt if you have even read this thread... You are no better than a creep in the trunk of a car shootin' people... Have a nice life... You aren't worthy of any more of my time because you are incapable, after over 400 posts here to mount any rebuttal to the charges that put forth other than bumper sticker level respones... Debating ignorant people is a waste of time... Like I said, have a nice little (very little) cowardly life... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:45 PM Bobert are you realy Bill O'reilly in disguise? You don't answer anything and any responses to your meiloristic pettifoggery just bounce off like bullets bouncing off of Superman. Is it your impaired vision or extreme cranial density that causes your one sided myopia? You can call me a coward all day long but I think you must be afraid of looking at the whole event. Yes I am having a fine life here in the USA just like you only I am enjoying it more than you because I see no need to bitch and whine about shit that is over and done with. Are you going to try to prevent that convicted sniper from being executed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM It's not over and done with until the problems that caused FEMA and the Corps of Engineers to fall down on the job have been corrected. And they haven't been corrected yet. So the situation is still ongoing. Remember, those people work for the taxpayers. And we pay them a lot of money to do their jobs properly. Local officials can be voted out of office, but we can't vote the FEMA officials or the Corps of Engineers out of office. So we have to find other ways to hold them accountable or get them replaced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM Good points, CarolC... But keep in mind that there's only but so much money available for various projects an' the Bush administration ***cut*** funding for the levees over the last several years... Yes, there is much work to be done that wouldn't have to be done if the Bush administration hadn't been so Hell-bent on shiftin' so many of the nations resources to an ill-thought-out invasion of Iraq at the expense of out own country... Oh sure, the Bushites ***said*** they had stuff covered but say6ing stuff is cheap... Deeds speak louder than words... Bottom line, the Bushites knew they were leaving some front's uncovered with their war of choice and were hoping that nuthin' would come along that would blow their cover.... Then Katrina and the house of cards fell apart... Some folks would argue that it was the locals who were at fault but those who would make that arguement apparently know nuthin' about Bush's own National Response Plan that put fed "boots-on-the-ground" should a catastophy occur that swamped local governements or made them ineffective... This was the Bush plan... Not Congresses... Problem is that not only was there no funding to carry it out but it would require the president or Secretary of Homeland Security to be on the ball and initiate the plan... Well, inspite of the protests of the few blinded Bushites, those two things have become painfully obvious to everyone else... The Bush adminsitration failed miserably in funding the agencies that were to meet the challenges of a catastrohy and then when the levees were topped went into some kind of denial while knowing they hadn't adequtely prepared to "protect the American people" afterall... No, as much as some would like to shift blame to the locals, it was a monumental failing of the Bush administration... Those who have followed this thread and know the things I have put forth know there can be no otrher conclusuion...Only folks who have come onboard lately thinking they really don't have to know what has allready been put forward are now showing their juvenilist ignorance about the issue... Meanwhile, yeah, a Cat 3 will take N.O. out tomorrow.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:26 AM What boss would ever think to tell his employers that the reason it got all f--ked up was ,,,,,,duh,,,, because my staff really screwed up. "The buck stops when it reaches the top"(Barry). Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fenando Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:30 AM Beat that drum so loud it drowns out everything else. Keep on blaring your bushite accusation but don't answer any questions like. "Who would have drowned or suffered from the flood if NO had been evacuated?" And what boss did ever think to tell his employers that the reason it got all f--ked up was ,,,,,,duh,,,, because my staff really screwed up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Missy Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM If Cat 3 will take N.O. out tomorrow I think they should be ready to evacuate. I know I would if I lived below sea level. I would not even depend on the government to get me out, just maybe keep the way clear. I think this is the plan most people in flood and hurricane prone areas have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM And what would you do, Missy, if you were 80 years old, confined to a wheelchair, couldn't drive, didn't have any family, didn't have enough money for public transporation out of town or motels because all of your meager retirement pension was being spent on diabetes medicine and supplies, and you weren't on the social services radar at all because you didn't believe in accepting charity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Missy Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM What would you do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM I guess I'd drown. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Missy Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM Sounds logical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM Well, I hope you don't, Carol. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:10 PM It's ok, Amos. I don't live below sea level (or have any of those other problems)... yet. But thanks. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM But in reaqlity, Katrina is just the tip of the iceburg... Hey, Katrina was last year's "Exhibit A" that the Bush administartion hasn't done anything to make Americans safer... Quite the opposite as it pointed out that the Bushite tinkerin' with domestic safety nets thru underfunding and general lousy management has left Americans more vulnerable to all kinds of disasters... So for yoy folks living above sea level I wouldn't breath too easily... Lots of stuff happens above sea level that can leave a region devistated and guess what??? Bush and his little circle of friends haven't fixed anyything since Katrina... OPh sure, there are more supplies... Who tghe heck cares if you can't get them to the folks who need them... There were plenty of supplies when Katrine hit but after the two day "duhhhhhhhh, Ralpf" on the Bushite's part in not implimenting their own National Response Plan, it was too late to get those supplies to where they needed to be... Yet some pea-brained folks think that the N.O. governemnt should have figgured out everything on it's own... Hey, that what the Nastional Response Plan was all about but these same pea-brained folks keep repeatin' their bumper-sticker mantra... Like I said, the USD i8s no better today to deal with a catastrphy than it was when Katrina hit... This is why I blame George Bush... If I were president I would have amde the effort to be sure that I wasn't going to repeat the same policy... This man is incapable of making changes... This is why he has failed at everything he has ever attempted to do... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Alphonse Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM If you are 80 years old, confined to a wheelchair, couldn't drive, didn't have any family, didn't have enough money for public transporation out of town or motels because all of your meager retirement pension was being spent on diabetes medicine and supplies, and you weren't on the social services radar at all because you didn't believe in accepting charity, George Bush should hire a clarivoiant to find you and get you to safety. If not, he is not protecting Americans like he should |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:23 PM That's right, Alphonse. Alternatively, the DHS could work with local governments to set up plans for making sure that public transportation is available for free for anyone who doesn't have a way to get out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM Well why didn't some bright eyed democrat demand that before Katrina hit NO? It's all 100% their fault even if they never choked on a pretzel. F |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Alphonse Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM Evcauation is the best policy. Why wasn't New orleans evacuated on Saturday and Sunday? "virtually everyone in Cameron and Calcasieu parishes left the area at least a day before the storm hit. There were reports of very few injuries and no fatalities 12 hours after Rita passed through." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Flashback Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM Addording to CNN it looks like every body knew what was coming. They just hadn't figured out who to blame it on: New Orleans braces for monster hurricane Crescent City under evacuation; storm may overwhelm levees Monday, August 29, 2005; Posted: 12:10 a.m. EDT (04:10 GMT) NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans braced for a catastrophic blow from Hurricane Katrina overnight, as forecasters predicted the Category 5 storm could drive a wall of water over the city's levees. The huge storm, packing 160 mph winds, is expected to hit the northern Gulf Coast in the next nine hours and make landfall as a Category 4 or 5 hurricane Monday morning. The National Hurricane Center reports that conditions are already deteriorating along the central and northeastern coast. (Watch video to see the worst case scenario) New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor's announcement) "This is a threat that we've never faced before," Nagin said. "If we galvanize and gather around each other, I'm sure we will get through this." He exempted essential federal, state, and local personnel; emergency and utility workers; transit workers; media; hotel workers; and patrons from the evacuation order. About 1.3 million people live in New Orleans and its suburbs, and many began evacuating before sunrise. (Watch video to see who's staying and who's leaving) Nagin estimated that nearly 1 million people had fled the city and its surrounding parishes by Sunday night. (Watch time lapse video of the evacuation) Between 20,000 and 25,000 others who remained in the city lined up to take shelter in the Louisiana Superdome, lining up for what authorities warned would be an unpleasant day and a half at minimum. City officials told stranded tourists to stay on third-floor levels or higher and away from windows. (See video from New Orleans, a city below sea level) Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that New Orleans could expect a complete loss of electricity and water services as well as intense flooding. "We know we're going to have property damage," she told CNN's "Larry King Live." "We know we're going to have high wind damage. We're hoping we're not going to lose a lot of lives." About 70 percent of New Orleans is below sea level, and is protected from the Mississippi River by a series of levees. (Full story) Forecasters predicted the storm surge could reach 28 feet; the highest levees around New Orleans are 18 feet high. Hurricane-force winds extend 105 miles from the center of the mammoth storm and tropical storm-force winds extend outward up to 230 miles. It is the most powerful storm to menace the central Gulf Coast in decades. Isolated tornadoes are also possible Sunday across southern portions of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and the Florida Panhandle, forecasters said. Federal Emergency Management Agency teams and other emergency teams were in place to move in as soon as the storm was over, FEMA Undersecretary Michael Brown said. Katrina is blamed for at least seven deaths in Florida, where it made landfall Thursday as a Category 1 hurricane. As much as 18 inches of rain fell in some areas, flooding streets and homes. (See video of the damage floodwaters left in one family's new house) At midnight ET, Katrina was centered about 90 miles south of the mouth of the Mississippi River. It was moving to the northwest at about 10 mph. National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield said: "There's certainly a chance it can weaken a bit before it gets to the coast, but unfortunately this is so large and so powerful that it's a little bit like the difference between being run over by an 18-wheeler or a freight train. Neither prospect is good." (Watch Mayfield's assessment of Katrina) Bush issues disaster declarations President Bush announced Sunday that he had issued disaster declarations for Louisiana, Mississippi and parts of southern Florida. The declaration for Miami-Dade and Broward counties in Florida will allow residents there to apply for federal disaster aid. "We'll do everything in our power to help the people and communities affected by this storm," he said. The president urged anyone in the storm's path "to put their own safety and the safety of their families first by moving to safe ground." Jesse St. Amant, the emergency management chief for Louisiana's southernmost Plaquemines Parish, said nearly 95 percent of the parish's 27,000-plus residents had fled by Sunday afternoon. Those who remained were being told that they are "gambling with their own lives." "I think they just don't believe something of this nature can ever happen in their lifespan, and I think they're going to be wrong," he said. As far east as Mobile, Alabama, 118 miles away from New Orleans, authorities warned of storm surges approaching 20 feet. "I'm afraid most people look at the map and say, 'It's going to New Orleans, we're all right,'" said Mobile Mayor Mike Deal. "We're in harm's way with the current path of this storm." Hurricane warnings are posted from Morgan City, Louisiana, eastward to the Alabama-Florida state line, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain. This means winds of at least 74 mph are expected in the warning area within the next 24 hours. A tropical storm warning and a hurricane watch are in effect from the Alabama-Florida state line eastward to Destin, Florida, and from west of Morgan City to Intracoastal City, Louisiana. A tropical storm warning is also in effect from Intracoastal City, Louisiana, west to Cameron, Louisiana, and from Destin, Florida, eastward to Indian Pass, Florida. A tropical storm warning means tropical storm conditions, including winds of at least 39 mph, are expected within 24 hours. A hurricane watch means hurricane conditions are possible, usually within 36 hours. Category 5 is the most intense on the Saffir-Simpson scale. Only three Category 5 hurricanes have made landfall in the United States since records were kept. Those were the Labor Day hurricane of 1935, 1969's Hurricane Camille and Hurricane Andrew, which devastated the Miami area in 1992. Andrew remains the costliest U.S. hurricane on record, with $26.5 billion in losses. Camille came ashore in Mississippi and killed 256 people |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:28 PM The Republican Congress would never have approved that, Fernando. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM How do you know? They approved the creation of DHS and they Approved the incorporation of FEMA into DHS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM Just a hunch, Fernando. But, I notice the Republicans didn't come up with that idea either. Still, it's the job of FEMA to come up with and to implement ideas like that one. That's what we pay them to do. And they didn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:52 PM FEMA is just a shell of what it used to be... It's been demoted and had it's funding slashed... There is really no agency that filled in to do what FEMA has done in the past... The DHS ain't up to the task... Heck, if another Katrina hit tyomorrow there is not one single person who would have as much power to act as any head of FEMA had prior to Bush... What we have now are 5 Principle Federal Officials (PFO's) and a number of Federal Coordination Officers (FSO's) with overlapping responsibilities... This is a invitation for diaster and more finger pointing... No one is really in charge under the "new and improved" reorganization... If anything, the "new and improved" reorganization is worse than the Bushite's last ideas... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Fernando Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:17 PM I say undo what the Democrats insisted had to be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:20 PM I say undo what the Democrats insisted had to be done I totally agree with this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM Me, too...The DHS is a joke... But the organization of it and the policies and appointemnts fall on Bush and his boyz... The Dems gave him way too much power with this department... W@ay too much and he and hi9s little circle of firends just plainly werwen't up to the task of making it work... As we speak, millions of dollars are being spend to have truck drivers drive ice around the country??? Like that wasn't a Democratic idea??? What we need is FEMA back as a quasi-independent agency that isn't part of the politics of the day... Yes to a stake thru the heart to the DHS!!! And look at the Dem who pushed it thru??? Joe "Repubocrat" Lieberman... Geeze, I wouldn't vote for that war monging creep for dog catcher... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:43 PM Howcome ain't no 'catters from N.O. on this thread crying the blues? Bobert sounds like one of them carpet baggers come to town to educate the locals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM Scalawag Rufus, go to. You are but an intemperate bag of wind and dark smells. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:45 PM I went to see the Doc one day las week cause I was feeling poorly and real nervous like. He told me I was impotent so I went to the store and got me a new suit, put it on at the store and went right home. When my wife saw me commin in the front door she axed me why I was so dressed up. I said the doc told me I was impotent and I figgered If I is so impotent, I ought to look impotent too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM Define "locals", Rufe.... Iz born an' raised in the Southland... Educated in the Southland... Lived 20 sumethin' years in the Capitol of the Southland... Drove a race car many years on Friday nights in the Southland... Prolly know more 'bout the Southland than 99% of the folks who come here... Ain't no carpet bag unner my arm or ov'r mah sholder, Rufe the Goof... Mighty easy to go playin' "Pin-the-Label" from the safety of GUESTdom, however.... Carpet-bagger, my ass, sir... Bobert (Southern bred and Southern raised) p.s. That don't make me no moron, 'er racist, 'er friggin Bush lover, ya' hear??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:58 PM Where they at Bobert? All the Bushites raise their hand. All the New Orleanians raise their hands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:04 PM Amos thinks I fart too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM I decline to respond to words placed in my mouth, sir, by the unqualified -- especially words such as those! But thanks for the humor. First time I was told that joke, I fell right off my ole dinosaur. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM Maybe he needs to get upwind o' ya, Rufe... Tolt you I was educated in the Southland... Stingy bee flies faster than a John Deer tractor can run... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM Need to get upwind of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM Don't see no hands up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:14 PM Ding dong Katrinagate is dead. Cause poor old Bobert's tetched in the head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:47 PM No, Katrinagate ain't dead... It never has been dead... Not all "gate's" end up in court with indcitments... Some end up in a far more damaging place and that is the hearts of folks who are dependent on leaders to tell the truth and BS them... To that end, Katrinagate is a huge success... Katrina was the point that historians will point to when Bush no longer was trusted by the American people... And he hasn't been able to gain back the trust and for very real reasons... He is now percieved as a liar who pumped out his chest and said "Hey, it's my job to protect the American people" but Katrina showed that those boasts were just lies... It really didn't have to be a hurricane... It could have been a terrorist attack... Bottom line, Bush wasn't ready to protect the American people... Now even the Repubs in Congress are distancing themselves from him... That speaks volumes about the distrust of this man's ability to deliver much more than proclamations... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM I never have understood exactly what it was that GWB did wrong. This convoluted thread does not address it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:22 PM Yes, it has, GUEST... You just either haven't read this thread 'er you just simply don't like to accepet reality... Probably a combination of the two.... Google up National Repsonse Plan and read what the Bush administration itself put together... No, it wasn't Congress... It was the Bush adminstration that formulated the National Response Plan... Do you know what it says??? I guess not... Maybe before you go getting too righteously indignant maybe you need to reread this thread... After you have done this work if you still have questions then ask them in a more specfic manner that shows that you have a basic grasp of the situation... No offense, but yer post just shows you lack the facts or you would have brought forth a rebuttal that was based on some level of understanding things lik, FEMA, DHS, the National Response Plan, etc... But this does explain why you think this is a "convoluted thread"... You don't have a clue, do you??? So, yeah, it probably is convoluted to you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:40 PM Be careful Guest. If you don't agree with Bobert you will be declared stpuid and a Bushite. I still can't understand why there are no people from New Orleans complaining about Bush, only people from elsewhere that know it all. If Bush was the sole reason for the disaster, they would be here in droves. Did they all drown or something? Google up the local disaster plans. Here 'tis http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26 except this one is new an improved. The original one dissapeared off their web site shortly after the hurricane for some strange reason. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM No one from New Ortleans complaining about Bush, Rufe... Care to expound of where you have come up with this assumption??? Oh, maybe you mean the wealthy white folks who are licking their chops at a chance to steal a city from the folks who used to inhabit it??? Yeah, Don't make much difference in how many m's you stick after the h it don't mean that you have stumbled onto some Holy Grail.... When you have addressed any of the basic positions that I put forth in my intial poats then you can tell me to Google up this or that... Heck, I'd even Google up "Mickey Mouse's Uncle" if you, or anyone would just please, please, please come up withj opne intellegent responst to the positions I took 450 posts ago.... Hey, this ain't rocket suregery here... You either understand the issues and are willing to debate them point by point or you ain't... 450 posts and all I get is, ahhhhhhhh, a big zip from those folks, Bushites, or not, who just think that if they put more m's after the h that those m's will scare me into throwin' up my arms and yellin' "Yeah, Bush is God. He did a fine job with Katrina..." Not.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM If they ain't here they can't answer. Is that so hard to understand? Now 'splain why there ain't nobody from ground zero joinin' you in your nervous breakdown? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:51 PM I ain't the one who's nervous... And, ahhhh, just curious there, Rufe... Have you now appointed yerself the spokesman for the Ground Zero folks as well as the spokesman for the folks who live in New Orleans??? Geeze... Next thing ya know you'll be telling us that God talks to you evert night an' He has appointed you his spokesman??? BTW, seein' as you have appointed yerself the honoray spokesman for the consciouness of all Ground Zero folks, exactly which floor were you on when the towers came down??? Jus curious... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:18 PM bobert, if Bullshit had the effect of gunpowder, you would have blown Mudcat to Hell long ago. I bet you are of the opinion that GWB should have ordered an Evironmental Impact Study prior to the 2 500# bombs being dropped on that house in Iraq Wednesday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM Oh, no; God forbid such niceties should stand in the way of our Shock and Awe. Guest, the odor of BS here is coming from your own drawers. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM Bobert is the self annointed boohoo for the folks at ground zero seein as there ain't any speakin' for themself. What was that you said about lightin up a stink bomb here on the mudcat? That's about your speed. Throwin things and running like hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:37 PM No, Amos, that odor is your breath blowing back in your face. I am thinking that both you and bobert are major contributors to the BS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM Hey, Rufe the Goof, you seem to be the one who has tried to use 9/11 to divert attention away from the complete failures of the Bush administration in it's response to Katrina... What you seem to miss, other than the point of this entire thread, is that after 9/11 it was Bush's responsibility to put in place systems to deal with the possibility of another disaster hitting the country... His initial idea of not the Departement of Homeland Security was created but here's the part that you don't seem to get... It was a department meaning that it fell in the organization chart in the executive branch... Do you know what that means, Rufe??? Well, I'm beginning to think that you don't... What it means is that the administartion of, the hiring for, the policies adopted, the systems developed all fall under the executive branch... In this case, that would be George Bush... Think of it like this... He is the CEO and if the product either doesn't sell or id found out to be junk then the directors find another CEO... (Bad example, BNobertm since these days the in thing is to have CEO's that loose money...) Well, CEO or not, the president is in charge of hiring the right folks and making decisions about policies, financing, etc... That is what Bush did... Problem is that FEMA ended up being demoted from a cabinet position and was gutted... Sure, DHS, in theory, was going to take up some slack... Porblem is that neither FEMA nor DHS had claerly defined responsibilities after DHS was organized... Why??? Well, maybe the Bush administration was too focused on Iraq??? Bottom, line, they weren't doing their "homework" and they still aren't... In 2003 FEMA warned the Bushites that "its netweork for registering victims faced a 'crisis of unimaginable porportions' without an infusion of cash, but the Bush administartion has not requested the additional money and Congress has not provided it." (Wsahington Post, 6/4/06, "Ready, Set, Hurrincan") And if another Katrina hit tomorrow the decisions regarding a federal response woud agin be a failure because there isn't one person in charge... We now have 5 PFO's, Princapl Federal Officers (and deputies) and a number of FCO's, Federal Coordinating Officers... Problem is that that even the White House has "reported that the PFO and FCO responsibilies still overlap". (ibid) See, this is why Katrine continues to haunt Bush and his admionsitartion... ***His*** own National Response Plan calls fot the feds to act when a disater is of such magnitude that it swamps eithe local or state government yet the Bush folks haven't done either the heavy lifting to get it orgainzed properly or funded it sufficiently... For a man who likes to boast that it's his job to protect the Amwerican people I'd say he is failing poorly at "his job"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:14 PM And I can promise you the same scenario will raise its ugly head the next time the whole delta gets lambasted. The national emergency is so well handled that the bridge to Biloxi is STILL lying in smithereens and the shrimp fleet is still hanging from the trees like rusty welded Spanish moss on a bad night. But what the hell, the headlines have died down, so who cares, according to the Rove Policy book, what the ground truth is or how much national misery there is? So, how come we can lose a billion dollars on a wild-ass adventure and not even fix up our own? Seems to me one explanation is there isn't any "our own" involved as far as Bush is concerned. No-one rich enough to deserve Federal support. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM Yeah, but it goes beyond campaign donators to the simple reality that Bush wasn't ready to really protect anyone at all, irregardless of how much these folks had put into the Bush treasury... I mean, look at Washington, D.C.... On a good day it takes you an hour to get 30 miles into Virginia... This is with staggered work hours and HOV lanes... Now think of a disater hitting Wsahington, D.C. where everyone needed to to evacuated... It really doesn't matter why they needed to be evacuated 'cause it doesn't matter... Evaculating Washington, D.C. is impossible... Evacualting half the people is impossible... Evacuating 25% of the people is impossible... There are no roads out of Wsahington, D.C. to speak of that aren't allready crammed with traffic... These are the kinds of issues that are beyond the scope of Arlington County, Va. or Montgomery County, Md. or the Washington D.C. government... This is where the country really needs to get beyond the huff'n-puff and get down to some serious work of creating ways to protect populations... Somw might argue that folks livin' in population centers don't deserve this much attention but if we look at where the tax dollars come that run the country it is from urban areas so I dobn't believe that the nation should jus' throw up it's hands and say, "Shoot, it's too hard a job" like Bush and his folks have done... These are some very challenging times that beg for folks who can walk the walk... Bush and his folks aren't up to doing much more than riling up their redneck base and cutting taxes to solve any problem out there... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM This hole Bobert thred is one of hiz stink bombs. Trying to use 9/11 and Katrina to discredit his hated enemy, GWB. What did GWB do to Bobert? He won when Bobert did ever thing he could think of to keep him from winnin, twicet. Now Bobert's got a double hard on for him. In the mean time Bobert has benefited from the improved economy that GWB has brought us, the economy that fell apart under Slick Willy's watch beginnin' in early 2000. While hees benefitten he's a cryin his eyes out like a 2 day old baby calf. Well ain't nobody and no thing perfect, Not Bobert, GWB, Slick Willy, The levees around a below sealevel city, gummint burocracys, nothin. (cept maybe Amos) However when a crybaby feels like cryin he can constantly find faults with one person that he hates and wants to blame everthin on to make hisself feel better. Have fun Bobert. Enjoy yourself cryin tha blues. You are one dem Mississippi blues man ain'tcha? I got those hup two three four occupation Baghdad blues An I hates old Georgie boy right down to his shoes Take it from there |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:23 AM Sorry, Rufe, but yer dead wrong... I have voted for Green Party candidates going back 2 decades now... The last Democtrat I voted for for president was Jimmy Carter... And make that: "An I hates Georgie's policies right down to his shoes..." As fir this thread being a "stink bomb"??? Well, sure it is... I don't deny that Bush's handlin' of Katrina has left the smell of dead fish... Hey, that's the entire point of this thread... As fir this great economy, the forclosure rate on homes is at an all time high??? Hmmmmmmm??? Could that mean that not everyone is seeing this economy as great or just folks deciding that they have grown tired trying to own a home and would prefer to run their hard earned bucks thru a shreader by payin' rent to Boss Hog??? But, hey, Rufe... I'm sure glad you is all comfy even though the middle class is getting squeezed... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:03 AM Rufus: What is your opinion of the national debt? How about the international trade imbalance? Oh, and the budget deficit? How's that strike you -- a good idea? Slick Willie, as you may recall, actually balanced the budget, and was readying up to reduce the debt. Perhaps you enjoy the notion of borrowing money in order to go to war. I seriously doubt whether Slick Georgie has contributed to any growth in the economy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM Did you vote Green to defeet Bush? Dem forclosures is due to greedy folks gettin arms to buy overpriced homes thinkin they could flip em and pocket some cash. Weeeel now that the arm has 'em by the 'nads and they caint sell them white elephants, they is tossin the keys back to the bank. Sounds like a lesson learned. Now those low interst rates has run up the prices o homes and the taxes on usens that stayed put. Ain't none of that good and Ah dont like the defisit or the balanse of trade neither. But who is it thets buyin all that furrin made stuff includin oil? And who is it that voted for the war and who approved the money???? You can cry an backpeddel all you want to but ain't nothin goin to change histry. IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION 107th CONGRESS 2d Session H. J. RES. 114 October 10, 2002 JOINT RESOLUTION To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq; Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism; Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated; Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998; Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations'; Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations; Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait; Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people; Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council; Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq; Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens; Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations; Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself; Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (1991), repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 (1991), and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949 (1994); Whereas in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1), Congress has authorized the President `to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677'; Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1),' that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and `constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,' and that Congress, `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688'; Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime; Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to `work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge' posed by Iraq and to `work for the necessary resolutions,' while also making clear that `the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable'; Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary; Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations; Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations; Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'. SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to-- (1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and (2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to-- (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that-- (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and (2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001. (c) War Powers Resolution Requirements- (1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. (2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution. SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS. (a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338). (b) SINGLE CONSOLIDATED REPORT- To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress. (c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM Amos, Amos, Amos, Slick Willie did not balance the budget, the new Rpublican majority, put into place several years after WJC's elction, balanced the budget. Slick Willie as the Prez simply gets credit for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM RIght. So he does. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:54 AM WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The former emergency management chief who quit amid widespread criticism over his handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina said he received an e-mail before his resignation stating President Bush was glad to see the Oval Office had dodged most of the criticism. Michael Brown, former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Friday that he received the e-mail five days before his resignation from a high-level White House official whom he declined to identify. The e-mail stated that Bush was relieved that Brown -- and not Bush or Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff -- was bearing the brunt of the flak over the government's handling of Katrina. (Watch how Brown fell from grace -- 4:00) The September 2005 e-mail reads: "I did hear of one reference to you, at the Cabinet meeting yesterday. I wasn't there, but I heard someone commented that the press was sure beating up on Mike Brown, to which the president replied, 'I'd rather they beat up on him than me or Chertoff.' " The sender adds, "Congratulations on doing a great job of diverting hostile fire away from the leader." CNN has been unable to verify the authenticity of the e-mail, but the White House designation "eop.gov" is part of the sender's e-mail address, indicating it came from the Executive Office of the President. A White House spokesperson said in an e-mail to CNN: "This is an old rumor that surfaced months ago and we're not commenting on it. This story has already been reported and I have heard nothing at all that would substantiate it." The e-mail was provided to CNN on the condition that the sender's name be redacted. Brown said only that the sender was a "good friend of the president," who has been with the president "a long time." Brown said did he, too, considers the sender a friend. While acknowledging that part of a political appointee's job is to "take the sword" for the president, Brown said he has grown weary of Chertoff making him a scapegoat for FEMA's failures in the wake of Katrina. "I'm not willing to take that sword for Michael Chertoff," Brown said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: DMcG Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM CNN has been unable to verify the authenticity of the e-mail, but the White House designation "eop.gov" is part of the sender's e-mail address, indicating it came from the Executive Office of the President. It looks as if CNN has not the slightest idea how easy it is to fake an email address. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:14 PM Whetehr or not this e-mail actually exists is of no significance... It is clean that Brownie was set up to take the fall... Problem is that since then he ain't been the lap dog scapegoat that Bush would have preferred... Too bad for Bush that Brown wasn't the architect behind Iraqmire 'er Bush could have killed two birds with one stone... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:58 PM ..But...how do you KNOW Brownie wasn't the real policy wonk? LOL! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM Nah, Brownie ain't mo dummy, Amos... Scapegoat, yeah, but no dummy... Plus, if Brownie had even said the word "Iraq" 'round Bush, Bush would have pinned Iraqmire on him... No, Iraqmire seems to have that Bush signiture to it... You know, like everything else he has ever attempted to do... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:18 PM Whar's then Nawlins folks that want to put all the blame on Bush? Bobert proudly stuck out his chest and said "I am gonna speak for them dummies down there cause they cant figure it out themselves" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:24 PM Author: Bobert (---.dialsprint.net) Date: 06-05-03 20:10 Don't worry nuthin 'bout dem cats, Dog. Most of 'em ain't worth a good chase. They get their noses up in the air 'bout folks funnin'. Yeah you want to talks about the origins os Scotish folk music fir hours upon end, then that's the joint fir ya. When I first started going over there I'd mess with em' and they'd get all upset and jump up an' down but these days they they ignore me like I'm Casper, 'er something. But I still drop by and mess with 'em jus' fir fun. Now, don't gey me wrong. Some is purdy cool, ahhh,, like Amos, Little Hawk, Bee-Dubya, Kendall, Jerry Rassmussen, Nicole, CarolC and JtS, but most of collectively add up to a big ol, ahhhh, snore! Except the big jerks like Teribus, troll and DougR, who think that George Junior is God.... Enough, let me go on over there, light a stink bomb and skeee-adddle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM Gol danged. Rufe.... Now you've become a cyber-stalker... I', flattered... Sho nuff am... Geeze, I notices that someone broke into a bag of my trash... That weren't you was it, Rufer??? Hey, if you want my trash, come take the whole bag off with ya and don't just leave the stuff all over the front yard... That was real neaty of ya'.... An', hey, by now you oughtta know the way I is so when I wrote that stuff over at Tweedsblues, hey, I was jus'funnin'... Like who cares??? I say the same crap 'round here... Don't change nuthin'... Bush blew Katrina... Yeah, I know, had Katrina come 'long durin' Clinton's years it would have been the other wat 'round... I jus' call 'um as I sees 'um... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 13 Jun 06 - 12:11 AM "Clinton's years it would have been the other wat 'round" Did ya see this in a dream or did ya see it in your goobered up glasses? I don think you was funnin at all, You jus a troll and you laugh at anybody that disagrees wif your rediculus position on things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM No, Rufer, I laugh at trolls who would rather make rediculous statements rather than come up with any reasonable rebuttal to the charges I have made about Bush and his administartion's handling of Katrina... Here we are approaching 500 post in this thread and as of yet no one Bush apologist has done much more than present bumper sticker length rebuttals or attack me personally... Normal behavior for folks who are clueless, I might add... Now perhaps, Rufe the Goof, you'd like to just reread the first post on this thread which lays out my arguments and rebutt them point by point... I'd love for you or any other Bushite to do that... That would, at least, be a starting point... And also check out the date of the post... Hmmmmmmmmm??? See, the story was allready there that early for anyone willing to do the homework... Yeah, alot of what I put forth became common knowledge much later... But the story was in place very early... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 AM bobert, you just won't listen to opposing facts. You want to think you do it bigger, better, first. Runaway egos are very destructive as most times they cause one to ignore the real stuff. For example, "Rovegate". Go back and read what you said and what several others told you, "No conviction!!!!!!!!" Why not do that before you come up with some flimsy excuse. We expect that and realize you are not going to admit you were wrong. Again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM First of all, GUEST< other than your guys placing the balme on the Mayor and governor, what are these supposed "opposing facts"? Someone tried to bring up something about a tow company wanting to chrage $1000 a car but that ain't got nuthin' to do with nuthin'... No, GUEST, that ain't got nuthin' to do with *my* ego... You would love to shift it to me but it ain't about me... Never has been... I laid out an argument and if you are willing to wade thru hundreds of posts that either attack me or blame everything on Ray Nagan, you won't find any "opposing facts"... Heck, you won't even find any opposing arguments, you know, like rebuttals... May you, GUEST, would like to the the first Bushite to actually defend Bush's administration's handling of Katrina???... Nah, didn't think so so go on back to trying to make this about my ego or me... That's all you have when yer delt a very weak hand... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:58 PM Hey guest: Bobert has said hunerds of times that anybody that dissagrees wif him is a Bushite. That's how he proves his cockeyed theory that everythin is Bushes fault. How does anybody get anythin thru that thick skull except with a RPG to the brain? You can't. Bobert says he's right has always been right and will always be right. Tha truth is he's just a troll by his own andmssion. "let me go on over there, light a stink bomb and skeee-adddle" Thay says weed does permanent damage to the brain and Bobert is tha proof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:47 PM Hey, RUfus: I doubt you can find one place Bobert has said any such a thing. Bobert has a tendency to settle things based on data which he can point to. If you wanna argue with him, instead of going in like a puffer-fish, all hot air and pointy spnes, go in with some data and see what kind of response you get. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM Let me conjure up a paralel to Bobert's lame brain argumint. If Bobert declared Fired chicken makes people fat I would not dissagree but ifn Bobert was to ingore and refuse to admit that anything else makes folks fat, that would make him wrong. Of course Bobert would declare that anybody claimin that anythin other than fired chicken is to blame is a fired chicken defender. He would esplain that none of the fired chicken defenders can prove he is wrong. He would point out that a large number of posts proves his point. Well I could esplain that if'n all the fired chicken was done away wif, Folks would still get fat but Bobert wouln't answer except wit a repition of what he already said. Truth is, this is another stink bomb that he has fun with. Now is you, Amos, going to come out public like and say Bush is or ain't the onliest cause of the problems wif Katrina? Or is you goin to take some twisty path sayin that nobody kin prove what Bobert said is wrong? An kin either one of youse nitwits say also what would have happened if FEMA wus allowed to stay an indpendint agincy? An why aint folks from Nawlins weighin in here with their 2 cents and agreein wif Bobert? I done axed that serval times an it gits ingored. Just a bunch of denials and pufferfish stuff stead of an answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:35 PM First of all, the only Catter who I know who lived in New Orleans when Katrina hit is Pappa Gator... Not too sure where P-Gator is now but he did stop at my house fir dinner on the way down to work on his house... That was back a few months ago... Other than him, I don't think there's any Catters from New Orleans... As fir FEMA's position as an quasi-independent agency like it used to, I'm all for that... But that doesn't change the fact the, cabinet position ot not, FEMA was stripped of staff and funding by Bush at the very same time that Bush was boasting of having the American people protected??? And ther Republican controled Senate has called for FEMA to be renamed (who cares) but also given greater resources... Bush opposes moving FEMA out from under DHS... So what you, Rufe, have suggested (or I think you suggested it..) is something that Bush is against... But I agree and have stated in this thread that FEMA needs to reoraginized and ***funded*** like it was back in the Clinton years... I feel quite strongly about this since I do own one commercial property that is in a flood plane and pay flood insurance to FEMA... As do hundreds of thousands of other folks... That money comes out of my pocket and goes to supposedly protect my investment against flood damage... Maybe you aren't award of this little fact, Rufe??? As for the stink-bomb comment, you still haven't figured out that I will have fun with people when it's time to have fun but when it comes down to discussing policies, I can be dead serious... You might find it intersting that I was one of the orgainizers of a Main Street program in Leesburg, Va. when I owned a business there and was also the promotions comitee chairman that involved me havin' to deal with all kinds of folks in order to get things done... This hardly squares with yer generalization of me as some half crazed pot head... Might of fact, I come from a family of community activists and have been involved with volunteer organizations going back into the early 60's... Hardly matches yer generalization... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:45 PM Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate? (ignored by Bobert) Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that( "life is good" is a former Bobert quote) "roll the clock back where as head of FEMA I could act without having been so-ordered by the Secretary of GHomaland Security who is aewaitin' his marching orders from the president" (another Bobert quote) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:07 PM So, what's yer point, Woody??? I don't think there is any argument on either side of the isle that FEMA used to do a better job when it had: 1.) authority, 2.) staffing and 3.) resources... The Republican conrtolled Seanate has said as much in recommending that FEMA (renamed or not) be given a larger role in the DHS... Larger role in bureaucracies = more money... You can't have a larger role if you are working witha bare-bones staff and few resources... As for the quotes, other than the usual typos, I'll stand behind them both... Apparently like is good for you, Woody, and that's just peachy... Makes me all warm and fuzzy knowin' that you are one of the 31% who is doing well under Bush... And yeah, I think it is obvious, especially in 20/20 hindsight that FEMA would have been in a better postion after Katrina if Michale Brown didn't have to wait for the order to act... Maybe, you are one of the few folks left on the planet that is so utterly in-love with Bush that thinks that he should make every danged decision, to corral all the powers and to be almighty in the running of every nut-'n-bolt of the government??? Hmmmmmmm??? The guy has taken more time away from the job than any president in history and, if I read you correctly, you want Bush to be the only guy who can get folks to act in the event of a catastrophy??? Is that yer position, Woody??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM bobert, I can see where you is a wonderful human bean, coming from a long line of family activists (60's) I wonder why we did not run into you you in Biloxi , New Orleans or a couple other places since 9-02? Well, maybe it was because you were home smokin' some cheap shit and telling lies about the situation and lies about how great you are. If you think you are foolin' everyone, well...........you are not. You are worth a couple chuckles now and then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM Still tryin' ta backpedal on the stink bomb fun eh? I sorta take folks at their word and call em as I sees 'em. When you talked to Poppagator what was his idys on "Katrinagate"? Now who wanted FEMA un organised? Who wanted to mess with somethin that wasn't broke? Dontch think that had a part in Katrinagate? What do fust responder an secon responder meas? Still sportin' a pony tail? Is life good like you said? An one las thing, Who's responsible for evacuatin' folks and who decides an declares when they responsible ones is overwhlemed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM GUEST, You, sir (or mam), are a jerk... Why not step out from behind yer little cowardly ambush nest and tell us what you've done in yer life.. You won't becuase you ain't done jack... Have a nice little cowardly life... Coward, washrag, crybaby, creep... Bye |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:33 PM bobert, did I step on some toes? I never said I have done Jack - you are the one always trying to convince others how wonderful you are. I simply said I d can't remember meeting you in Biloxi, NO and a couple other places. Where were you, by the way? Oh yea, the name calling is classic, sorta' like the 3rd grade. Again, a couple more laughs from the great one. And how do you know that I "havn't done jack"? Man, those toes must really sting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM When one cain't give an answer with out incriminatin hisself he has to get all threatinin' like and callin people cowards. Is that how you gets things done in yore home town? I ain't never said I liked Bush. You autiomatically accuze everybody that dissagrees with you of bein a Bushite. It ain't so but it makes you feel holy or somethin as if it proves you is right. When ever Bush's approval ratin' goes down you celebrates an gloats over it. Whenever it goes up you say So What? Ifn we nabbed Bin Laudin tomorry you would say So What? Now don't hurt him or any thin. Give him a lawyer and don't execute him no matter what he done. Would you call him a activist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:06 AM Bobert is correct in characterizing "Guest"'s posts as cowardly. It is typical fear-driven behaviour to make unkind remarks from behind a safe curtain of anonymity. "Guest" should be ashamed. Rufus: If you don't care for Bush, or for his policies, come out and say so. If you do, come out and say that. Be straight, be brave, and speak your own truth plainly. That's all Bobert does, except when certain pizen-mongers get under his skin. All this rhetorical flaming around doesn;t do either side much good, I guess. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM A "safe curtain of anonoymity"????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM Oops - "fear driven behavior"? Amos, you can do better than that. I am a secure individual who, while not intentionally causing it, can really get amused at a "bobert" who, when confronted with plain fact, can only resort to name calling. Rufus has him figured out. "Anonymity"? I have no idea what an Amos, a bobert or even a Rufus is and what matter is that? I will never meet these people, I do try to treat them with the respect deserved (key word "deserved") and see no reason to get one's Boxers in a wad while engaging in a forum such as this one. Not a reflection on 'Mudcat', it is just one of thousands, I am sure. And Amos, bobert apparently says a lot for effect. I can not tell if he is a Bullshitter, plays Devils Advocate (that is a cowardly way) or is simply ill informed. I mean no disrepect to him by those comments. Neither do I intend this to be an apology. He apparently does his best to bluff on occasion and to badger on others. I doubt very much that he would admit to an erroneous statement when directly confronted, rather, go with "coward, crybaby, creep", ad infitum. And, there is nothing to be ashamed of, why don't some here go with "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen?" With that said, 'bobert, those toes must still be smarting, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:44 AM Ummmmmmmmm, would someone explain to me how if I had been in NO or Bolixa would change the arguments that I laid down in the first poat of this thread??? Or how me being there or not relieves Bush of the F he and his boys have gotten for his handling of the Katrina??? Seems a couple folks here continue to think that attackin' me will somehow make Bush's failures okay... Well, if that is so then why isn't Tim Russert callin' to have me on his show??? Duhhhhhh... Bobert (still waiting for one danged even semi-intellegent rebuttal to charges I made 490 some posts ago...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:34 AM I am still waiting for a honest anser to things like who is responsible for evacuations etc. Ya jest keep skipin over em and keep repeatin "still waiting for one" an then your number gets higher so you think that makes you all high an mitey. Anser this if you kin. How many times has you been told that ya ain't gonna get any defense of yore hated enemy GWB?? All yore gonna get is people tryin to say that it warnt all hiz fault. Yore stink bomb didn't work jest like yore uranium stink bomb and your new Washinton Memorial troll ain't workin. Is you a musician or a stand up comic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM A recent article indicates fraud and abuse of Katrina funds up to 1.2 billion dollars. More than enough to save NPR! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM You iz right as rain Amos but who need NPR? I listens to Cspan. Id like to add that the money was stold by crooked people not FEMA and if FEMA was left alone an independint this might not have happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:02 AM Amos, probably true but there are other frauds and abuses going on to save us all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM Oh yes, bobert, the point is had you been down there you might not be clueless as to what really happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM Let me ax them ignored questions one at a time Bobert. What do Poppagator say bout Katrinagate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM Rufus: The original post that began this thread addresses mpst of your flaming rhetoric. Poppagator's remarks on the Katrina incident were mostly limited to his personal misadventures, as I recall. You could PM him if you took out a handle here. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM Hey, did you get your share of the $1.4 billion given out so far on fraudulent Katrina-Rita claims? The feds are talking about some 7000 prosecutions for fraud, but most claims probably never will be investigated, chances are good to get a chunk of taxpayer money. The Bush-Chummy-Rummie-etc. administration wins by a landslide as the most inept in USA history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:41 PM Well, rufus, you keep asking question that I have ****fully**** answered... You can't just jump in the middle of threads and expect to sound intellegent... I've answer the "evacuation" question at least a half a dozen times... I'm not going to support yer laziness in not takin' the time to bring yerself up tyo date on this thread... Now, tell ya what, after you have found my answer, let me know what I said to prove you actually spent the time to bring yerself up to date... I've also answered the P-Gator question **** to the best of my knowledge****... BTW, what does P-Gator have to do with this.... He doesn't work for Bush or FEMA... Last I heard from him he was spilttin' his time takin' care of his elderly mom in New Jersey and working on his house in NO but... ... no matter waht he's doing, expalin why this matters, will ya??? Seems that you are terribly locked in obn stuff that don't mean nuthin' to nuthin' to Bush's failures which have been highlighted by Katrina as the protector of the American people... Now, hows 'bout finding the "evacuation" asnwer and prove to me that you found it and maybe we can talk about the position I have laid out in regards to "evacuation"... No hints either... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:55 PM Amos, I thought Poppagator left before Katrina hit and did not return for weeks. What were his "misadventures"? And just one more time, in every case, the State and Local governments are resposible for the evacuation prior to the storm. Giving a mandatory evacuation order on Sunday as did the Mayor was a bit late. But I am not going to try to convince bobert of this, he and his moldy stash box will do as they please. That is okay, I just consider the source. And yea, I have read "The Plan". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:43 PM Now in this here thread the fust mention of who is in charge of evacuations I sees posted by Guest A: "In every aspect of it, the stipulation is that the first responders, read local and state government here, are responsible for the for the first evacuation and rescue attempts. Don't you think it might be a little late for someone to respond from a 1000 miles away. If you find this to not be to your liking, then please quote us the section and paragraph from the National Response plan that dictates otherwise. It could be there but my copy doesn't reflect it." Didja answer that one? Nope you jus take to callin people stupid and callin them name like this: "This is the point I've made over abnd over but these knothead Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that...; Sure, life is good... I have provided GUEST A a source to find out just how good my life is but yet, when I point out the4 dfriggin' truth to either GUEST A or Old Guy, all I get is "Life is good and yer wro9ng, Bobert" crap throwed back at me... Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers... They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true???? Freud would have a field day with these two..." Scuse me mr right reverand Bobert but you aint answered the question yit and it is because you caint without blowin away yore assertion that Bush is tha problem with everthin. Now here is another shinin example of how you don't answer: You said "I've also heard from P-Gator who has been back to his house in N. O. and the stories are very similar" I axed you about what Poppagator had to say and you gets all puffed up and said: "I've also answered the P-Gator question **** to the best of my knowledge****... BTW, what does P-Gator have to do with this.... He doesn't work for Bush or FEMA... Last I heard from him he was spilttin' his time takin' care of his elderly mom in New Jersey and working on his house in NO but... no matter waht he's doing, expalin why this matters, will ya???" The reason it matters is like I done said sevral times befo in this thread, but maybe you aint even readin you own thread, is if GWB is the sole reason fo these here problems surely the actul residence of ground zero would be up in arms even wus than you but they ain't and I am a wunderin why. Now how bout stead of wasting so much disk space with your puffery, name callin an evasive tackticks you just anser the danged questions? Bye tha way you is up to 506 now. Maybe now ya can get on O'rielly and you and him can try avoidin his questions on National TV. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:50 PM Q, it has nothing to do with the ineptness of GWB and others. The fraud is due to the absolute cheating and greedy mentality of a lot of Americans. You have seen nothing yet and when you do, give credit where credit is due - a segment of America that thinks greed and cheating is the American way. GWB and the Feds were trying to help. They put too much trust in a large segment of the welfare population. And when other fraud comes to the surface, you will find that it will represent another segment, the something for nothing group and not a part of the welfare community, who are screwing the American taxpayer more than the welfare people could ever dream of! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:09 PM An heres another one you can claim you can dance around an claim you has answered: Who decides when the locals (first responder) has done been overwhelmed? I guess it jus don't matter of they piss away two days goin back and forth on whether it is a forced evacuation or not. It only matters when the second responders cain't help right away cause the first responders screwed up so bad. Yeah, them second responders are the bad guys. You cain't blame anythin on the first responders cause they is so stupid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM LOL, Rufe... Allison Young, reporter for Knight Ritter and author of an article entitled "Chertoff Delayed Federal Response, Memo Shows"... These are her words and she makes her living reseraching the stuff that neither you nor I have the time to research: "Well, the entire response has been intersting, hearing all of the finger pointing about the lack of command and control on the ground in the hurricane zone during Katrina. In January of this year, the Department of Haomeland Security unveiled their National Response Plan. This was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-Septmeber 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says that this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane. What's surprising is, when you listen to the testimony yesterday by the former FEMA director, it seems to be in conflict with what the pane calls for in a catastrphe, where locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take a proactive- take proactive steps to protect the lives of of citizens. And it says that all the standard procedures fro requiring requests can be waived in these kinds of situations, and while federal asuthorities are supposed to notify. if they can, and coordinate with staes, it says, in the plan, that the coordination process should not delay or impede the rapid mobilization and deployment of critical federal resources...." (Interview with Aliaon Young, Septmber 28, 2005, Pacifica Radio) Now to Governor Blanco: "Among the more that 100,000 pages of newly released records, which ranged from after-action reports to hand-scrawled notes written at the height of the storm, are memoes showing Blanco frustrated and angered over delays in evacuations and the slow delivery of promised federal aid. 'We need everything you've got,' Blanco is quoted in a memo as telling President Bush on August 29, the day Katrina made landfall. But despite assurances from the federal Emergency Management Agency that 500 buses were 'standing by,', Blanco's aides were compelled to to take action when the buses failed to materialize, documents show... (There's mush more in a Washington Post story of December 4, 2005 written by Jody Warrick, Spencer S. Hsu and Anne Hull entitled "Blanco Releases Katrina Records") Hmmmmmmm, Rufe??? These are some purdy danged good journalist who make their liovings doing the hard research... Hey, if you want to jusy go and call them liars, hey, it's a fee country but... ...seems like the ball is in your court... Ahhhh, as fir P-Gator... What yer fascination with the poor guy??? Like does he, as one home owner, represent the heartbeat of NO??? I just don't understand yer logic in constantly bring him up as if he were the second coming... Maybe, while yer mulling over what I have written here you will elaborate on his importance in Bush's response to Katrina??? Por favor... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:50 PM I axed why bone of them gound Zero folks was in tune with you. You mentioned poppagator. I axed waht he said. You ain't said what he said yet. Now I am axin what the first responders did in the two precious days before the hurricane hit? I am sayin they fiddlefarted around cause they was so inept an unsuitable for tha job. They could have got them people out but they didn't even tho they was told to. They set the evacuation process back so bad it was a dizaster. They could have called a military evacuation with their own national guard an they could have axed for out of state national guard to get them folks out beginin on Friday. Did they do it? no Now ya can hoot an holler at me about bein a bushite and point to the number of posts and claim nobody has made a intelligent response Blah Blah but you caint keep the first responders out of the list of causes for the Disaster. If you do that you is just makin this whole thread just another nasty ass one sided, anti Bush rant |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:08 PM Yo, rufe... We have one danged Mudcatter from NO and you want to put him on some pedistal and worship his every burp... Like what it that all about, pal??? Hey, I don't speaek for NO any more than you do and anymore that P-Gator does so what is the deal here... As far as debating points, this is a "zero" for yer side... And rather than talk about what oviously overwhelmed local and state governemtns did lets get back to the Alaison's Young's obseravations here... Some things are too big for local governemnts to handle... Do you have any experience with local governments, budget processes, ect in these days of fewer and fwer federal dollars going back to state and local governemnts??? Yeah, just answer that one... You been in budget hearings and work sessions??? I have and guess what, pal.. It ain't too purdy... Like after paying for the basics, local governments ain't got no extra dough for first responders... Sates don't either... The Council of zGovernors has been begging for dough from Bush but guess what... Bush writes checks like a man with no arms when it comes to much more than the DoD and their contractors... You, my frind, are not livin' in the real world... You haven't been payin' attention to the dollar drain in state and local governments that have occured since 2000!!! Ask any Governor, Republican or Democart... They'll tell you... Ask any mayor of a large city... Thay'll tell you... And yopu expect these governments to have all that extra cash to do what FEMA used to do?? You are not living in the real world... Go attend yer local city council meeting and get educated... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:11 AM Bobert points out something every citizen should know- a major problem for all our cities in the U. S. of A. and Canada is the lack of money for basics, as tax money goes for frills like wars and pork barrels. New Orleans and most major cities have no reserve funds but live from hand to mouth, always at least one tax year behind needs. There is nothing for keeping up infrastructure. (Engineers in N. Y. live in dread of a major failure in main water lines, some of which have had no repair or maintenance in 100 years). Infrastructure is deteriorating everywhere. (Digression to local comment). Right here in River City (Calgary, that is), the school system needs $100 million for essential repairs to schools but have been offered $4 million. Boards are faced with abandoning some schools because needed repairs were never made, and they can't get the funds, although the province is swimming in oil money. The provincial government gave a $400 gift to every citizen when as a focused expenditure, the money would have paid for a few new schools, hospitals, and their upkeep. Back to Katrinagate- The 1.4 billion dollars thrown away by the feds on false Katrina-Rita claims, as detailed in the N. Y. Times, would have helped the N. O. and other local governments with rebuilding their school, transportation and other genuine infrastructure needs. Katrinagate marches on! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:56 AM http://www.nola.com/rose/t-p/index.ssf?/rose/katrina/do_the_right_thing.html Do The Right Thing Open your hearts and your neighborhoods to those in need Friday, December 30, 2005 By Chris Rose I don't mean to pick on old Cyril Neville in every column, but it's just so darn easy. Lately, the Bitter Neville Brother From Austin Who Besmirches Our Name has taken to wearing a T-shirt when he performs that says "Ethnic Cleansing in New Orleans." And that's the truth. I, for one, am glad that we finally got rid of all those pesky white people in Old Metairie, Lakeview, Gentilly, Chalmette, Arabi and Plaquemines Parish. They were beginning to bug me, what with their strange diets and music and taste in automobiles. Ugh! What's with this Prius thing, anyway? You call that a car? Cyril has turned into one of those lamentable figures, the demagogues and rabble-rousers and so-called Christian Soldiers who use a disaster such as this to further their own bizarre and deconstructive personal causes and agendas, whether they be racial discord, homophobia or just the embarrassing need for attention. (See: Jackson, Jesse.) Like Spike Lee, the acclaimed director who seems determined to displace Oliver Stone as America's chief conspiracy-minded filmmaker, who paraded around New Orleans a few weeks ago proclaiming that it was highly plausible that the levees were bombed to run all the black people out of town. Well, I guess no one checked in with Houston and Baton Rouge when this plan was hatched. The only real evidence to support this theory is that, if there was such a plan, it was mangled so badly that it wouldn't be hard to believe that the government was, indeed, involved. If the plan was to run all the black folks out of town but all the stockbrokers in Lakeview got taken out in the deal, then it's not a stretch to think that FEMA's fingerprints are all over the thing. The race issue is going to haunt our rebuilding process for years; that is a lamentable given. And it begins with trying to fathom how 49 states just opened their doors, their communities and their hearts to our evacuees but now that we are trying to piece things back together here, AT HOME, we do not offer the same hospitality to our own. The shame of this is unspeakable, the FEMA trailer thing and its concomitant cry of Not In My Neighborhood. There is good reason to dread the great inconvenience that trailer parks bring, but here's the Big Picture on that: Inconvenience is going to be our way of life around here for an appreciable period of time. We can bear it together or apart. We can open our neighborhoods to those who have suffered more than us, or we can wait for the whole damn thing to explode in our faces. Here's a novel idea: You could introduce yourself to the trailer people. Wouldn't it be strange to discover you have the same interests in gardening or sports or music? There is this daunting notion sweeping our community that some of these trailer parks will harbor -- horrors! -- POOR PEOPLE! Well, yes -- and many of them were poor before Katrina and now they have nothing at all except a gleaming white trailer crammed up against a bunch of other gleaming white trailers and as experiments in social interaction go, we're up against tough odds and praying for a miracle of harmony. Here's the thing about poor people: Most of them are honest. Many of them will become writers and artists and musicians and teachers and cops. Many will serve in the National Guard units that saved our wet and desperate behinds this fall when the bottom fell out. And some poor people will even become rich. It's weird how that works. And, truth is, they're less likely than Entergy or your insurance company to try and rip you off. It is incumbent upon those of us who "have" to help those who "had"; help them (us) rebuild their (our) lives here in their (our) home. That the regular citizenry would block this is unwise, uncharitable and, more than anything else -- it is not the Louisiana way. Let's go with the words of Spike Lee -- the title of a great movie he made a long time ago -- before he became a whack job and started claiming the Oscars were fixed because he didn't have one. It was called "Do The Right Thing." Simple advice. Somebody. Please. . . . . . . . Columnist Chris Rose can be reached at chris.rose@timespicayune.com, (504) 352-2535 or (504) 826-3309. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:13 AM http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?sconfig=nola&count=20&xpath.pubdate=06%2F15%2F2006+06%2F14%2F2006+06%2F13%2F2006+06%2F12%2F2006+06%2F11%2F2006+06%2F10%2F2006+06%2F09%2F2006+06%2F08%2F2006+06%2F07%2F2006+06%2F06%2F2006+06%2F05%2F2006+06%2F04%2F2006+06%2F03%2F2006+06%2F02%2F2006&xpath.category_letter=&xpath.any=corruption&x=20&y=9 » Firm lent Jefferson at least $50,000 (Thursday, 6/15/2006, Times-Picayune) WASHINGTON -- Rep. William Jefferson, D-New Orleans, who is at the center of a federal criminal bribery probe, received a personal loan from a satellite radio executive who has had business before the federal government, financial records released Wednesday show. » Four N.O. housing developments will be demolished (Thursday, 6/15/2006, Times-Picayune) Promising a renaissance for public housing in New Orleans, federal housing officials said Wednesday that they will reopen 1,000 units by summer's end and within three years demolish four decades-old complexes, changing sections of the city's landscape by replacing the sprawling brick developments with a mix of single-family homes and apartments. » Former political fund-raiser sentenced (Wednesday, 6/14/2006, Times-Picayune) Former New Orleans business executive Gilbert Jackson, once a major political fund-raiser at the local level, has been sentenced to 27 months in federal prison for income tax evasion. » Mesmerizing madam (Wednesday, 6/14/2006, Times-Picayune) How does one prepare for a role like Norma Wallace, for more than four decades the French Quarter's most infamous, colorful and scandalously successful whorehouse madam? » 2nd cop accused of armed robbery arrested, resigns (Tuesday, 6/13/2006, Times-Picayune) The second New Orleans police officer accused of participating in a three-man shakedown of a downtown massage parlor last week was arrested Monday, and Superintendent Warren Riley called the arrests a reflection of his department's policy to weed out corruption. » Punishment doesn't fit the allegation (Tuesday, 6/13/2006, Times-Picayune) Far be it from me to take up for U.S. Rep. William Jefferson, whose embarrassing actions, caught on tape by the FBI in the course of a widespread bribery probe, have undermined his flood-ravaged district's prospects in Washington at the worst possible time. » Ex-bail bonds executive starts sentence (Saturday, 6/10/2006, Times-Picayune) Former Bail Bonds Unlimited executive Norman Bowley has reported to prison for his part in corrupting then-Judge Alan Green with cash and gifts in exchange for boosting the company's profits. » GOSPEL AND GOALS (Friday, 6/09/2006, Times-Picayune) Contemporary gospel star Kirk Franklin intended to spend Monday, a rare day off at home in Dallas, helping his oldest son prepare for his first semester of college. » Jefferson on the defensive (Friday, 6/09/2006, Times-Picayune) U.S. Rep. William Jefferson, D-New Orleans, is ratcheting up his response as the threat of indictment looms. » Vote may cost seat on powerful panel (Friday, 6/09/2006, Times-Picayune) WASHINGTON -- A House Democratic steering committee voted Thursday to recommend that embattled Rep. William Jefferson, D-New Orleans, be stripped temporarily of his seat on the powerful House Ways and Means Committee, but a vote by the full Democratic caucus was delayed after strong objections from the head of the Congressional Black Caucus. » EDITORIAL: It's time to step in, governor (Thursday, 6/08/2006, Times-Picayune) Opponents of levee board consolidation didn't wait long to try to unravel reforms passed in February. » Jefferson promises he has 'an honorable explanation' (Wednesday, 6/07/2006, Times-Picayune) WASHINGTON -- Rep. William Jefferson, D-New Orleans, said Tuesday that there is "an honorable explanation" for the damaging scenario being painted by the federal government in the federal bribery probe targeting him, and he again denied breaking any laws. » Pious lectures from a House committee (Wednesday, 6/07/2006, Times-Picayune) Watching a legislative committee discuss ethics can put you in mind of what Dr. Johnson said when told that a woman had delivered the sermon at a Quaker meeting:"Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on its hinder legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all." » Changing the system, vs. the subject (Tuesday, 6/06/2006, Times-Picayune) Gov. Kathleen Blanco sat down Monday before the House Ways and Means Committee, to plead once again that New Orleans residents be allowed to vote on whether to merge the city's seven assessors into a single office. » For juries, seeing deed on tape often is believing (Saturday, 6/03/2006, Times-Picayune) WASHINGTON -- The kind of videotaped evidence confronting U.S. Rep. William Jefferson, D-New Orleans, is often more persuasive to jurors than even eyewitness testimony but doesn't always produce a slam-dunk case for prosecutors, lawyers Thomas Puccio and Michael Tigar said. » Uncle's larceny at RTA surprises Morial (Saturday, 6/03/2006, Times-Picayune) Marc Morial broke his silence this week on the federal corruption probes into his eight-year mayoral administration, stating that he had no inkling that his uncle, Glenn Haydel, had stolen money from the Regional Transit Authority. » Judge backs Jefferson affidavit ruling (Friday, 6/02/2006, Times-Picayune) WASHINGTON -- A federal judge in Maryland on Thursday affirmed an earlier ruling authorizing the release of an FBI affidavit used to justify a search of the U.S. residence of the vice president of Nigeria and his wife on the same day that Rep. William Jefferson's homes were searched by FBI agent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:25 AM Q, you and bobert would have been the first to complain if the Feds had delayed the offering of funds. Why not comment on the greedy and crooked citizens who took advantage of something offered in good faith? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:36 AM Great piece by Chris Rose, Woody... Thanks for posting it... The tiny letters kinda hurt my head but it was well worth the read... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:42 AM Why you doin a cover up of whut Poppagator said? Bobert either can't or won't answer simple questions. I guess that's wut people in the real world do. They keeps changin tha subjects. When FEMA don't get aid to tha folks fast enuf they gets criticized. When they cut tha red tape to get aid to them faster, they gets critisized. Is it tha crooks that does tha stealin in tha real world or is it the people that let's em steal? Opps, I fogot, you is always on the side of tha killers an crooks. Hey mr real world, no answer Bobert, for the umpteenth time, How come FEMA ain't the independant agincy they was back in the golden years of the Clintoon administration? You ever even been to NO? I has. I done stood on the levees and looked up at the ships. Then I turned around an looked down on tha city an I wundered How long it would be befo a storm would flood it. I heard Mr Nagin changin his mind back an forth about forcin an evacuation for two days. When I heared predictions of frigerators and small cars flyin through the air, when I heard that you had to be in a 4 story buildin to be safe from tha flood an even then the windows would blow out, when I heard that even if you survived all that you would be stranded for at least a week with no food, water or medcines, I sepent all Sunday afternoon callin folks I know to tell them to get the hell out of thar and don't plan on comin back for months at least. Well the lines was so messed up that I had to call bout 20 times for each time I got thru and then the people on tuther end was unwillin to leave cause nobody was forcin them to leave. I kept callin gack with even worse perdictions until they finaly got out Sunday night and by then they barely got out. Now what the hell do you know except what high frofit corporate mainstream media shitheads has fed to ya? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:26 AM Why, Rufus, well done. Sounds like you saved some asses based on yer own good judgement. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:39 AM I am gonna rename Bobert O'Bobert cause all he wants to hear is what agrees with him an he don't answer any questions hisself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:04 AM Here's what P-Gator said (paraphrased) in rrgards to Katrina: "Fortunately we lived on the 2nd floor so most of our good stuff wasn't damaged... The first floor, however, where we stored a lot of stuff was flooded out and everything is ruined, including the wallboard. It'm going down there to see what I can salvage and to collect a few things then I'm going back to New Jersey to take care of my mom..." That's 'bout the crux of the discussion.. It's puzzeling that anyone would find any meat in that that could be used to prove any point or that anyone would promote poor ol' P-Gator to some kinda Katrina guru or see-er who is the end all authority on Bush's failures... That conversation occued last October and I haven't had any further contact with P-Gator since... Now, whoever wants to pour thru the contents of our discussion, which I think was rather mondane, for debating nuggets, have at it... As fir "mainstream sh*theads", Rufe, this thread began well before "mainstream sh*theads" arrived at this story... It was done thru hard work and many hours of reading all kinds of stuff from Google search, from personal stories, to obscure articles, to less obscure articles, then to Googling stuff like National Response Plan, flood control, FEMA, DHS, etc... This was before Michael Brown's 2nd trip to Congress for intense questioning... This was before the discussion of the organization of DHS and FEMA became common discussions... This was before the subject became vouge... I know from the ill-informed rebuttals, if you can call them that at all, that there is no one on the Bush side of the fence who has evn scrathed the surface in familiarizing themselves with the real "facts" involving the original positions that I laid out and thus a string of persoanl attacks against me for having put in the time it takes to research an issue and make an argument... Katrina ain't about me, Rufe... If you think it is go back an reread the original post of this thread... It's about a a series of failures within the Bush administartion... He's the CEO and the job didn't get done in accordance with his own folks National Response plan... I guess if I were assigned your side to debate, however, seein' as there little there to defend, I might use the same tactics as many anonomous GUEST's have used... Second thought, I'd ask the debate coach if I could just take a pass and iof he or she said "no", I'd quit the debate team... But, Rufe, and others keep them personal attacks comin'... With each and everyone of them you are just proving that you ain't got no real defenses... BTW, we all do what we can... I donated as much money to the Red Cross as I could afford... Plus I played two benefit concerts, one in Northern Virgina and the other here in Luray... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 15 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM Where is the Poppagators anger at GWB? If he was holdin him responsible for evething like you are an like you say evebody should he would say so. He didn't so that means you is just beatin yore chest and making a lot of noise about GWB while side steppin any questions about who else is responsible. Ya don't want to look at tha whole picture. Like I said another nasty ass one sided rant about Bush and a false one, a troll at that. Just Fun for O'Bobert. let's go back thru those questions one at a time and see if ya can answer them or have fun not answerin em. What are the first responders responsibilities? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:08 PM No more answers until you do a little answerin' of yer own, Rufe.. I asked you hald a dozen relevant qurstion that you seem to try to evade by asking me stuff that don't have nuthin' to do with the issue at hand... Like P-Gator questions... What on God's Good Earth has possessed you to not only appoint P-Gator to the position of speaking for every New Orleanan, which if I were from there I would find personally insaultin, but then you kepp asking the same dumb-ass question for me to answer as if P-Gator was in possession of the Holy Grail??? I'm not too sure who yer debating coach was in high school or college but that person failed you miserably... If this was a court of law I would have motioned the judge for "Relevance" over and over as you ask questions that have nuthin' to do with Bush's response to Katrina... Maybe you'd like to expalin how P-Gatot's testmony is relevant to Bush's response to Katrina??? Maybe you like to explain why you try to turn this discussion to one about me??? Maybe you'd like to explain what queations you have asked that I haven't answered and why you think they are "relevant" to this thread??? Maybe you'd like to explain why you have used foul language in yer posts??? No, pal, it isn't me who has been palying games... It's you and you continue to play game becuase either you like playing games of you have no real defense... It really doesn't matter much to me... As for responding to any more of yer posts don't expect much more responses because frankly, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, until you come up with some reasonable rebuttals, responding to yer accusdations and abitings it not worth my time... You have added nuthin' to this discussion... If you think you have, please explain and answer all the questions I put forth in this post... Purdy simple... You've been playing a bad hand and it getting time to show 'um.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:33 AM Dear O'Bobert: #1 Unless you got some kinda gag order, anythin and everythin to do with Katrina is pertinent ta this here thread you started, other wise you done illegally put Katrina in tha name. #2 I never appointed anybody to anythin. I wanted to see if somebody from NO ahrees with you. Does Poppagator? Did he say Bush Blew itwif no mention of the local gummint? Personal attacks by O'Bobert: "Bush-heads, T-Head included" "All the crap you are saying is just that: crap" "Waht don't you get about that???: How many time do I have to point that out to you before it sinks into yer bone-head???" "knothead Bushites" "Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers." "Freud would have a field day with these two" "You sound like some prize-fighter whio has both eyes bloodied and is just flailin' way a air" "The dumb shit who said there were WMDs in Iraq," "Well, no, I haven't" quacks the quaster" O'Boberts bad language: "They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true????" "Then you get these two knotheads who are either just making sh*t up or are gettin' sh*t that is made up for them from some Bushite blog and it's, quite frankly, purdy danged pathetic" "It doesn't matter a rat's ass" "Who gives a rat's ass about Blanko" "if you don't have the balls" O'Bobert's hypocrisy: "missing the big piccure" "name calling by you and the other "couragous" GUESTS" O'Boberts attempt to control the discussion to suit himself: "there are some premises that I laid down that superceed yer arguments" O'Bobert wanderin off of the topic he demands everybody else (cept his buds) must stick to: "Once upon a time, a very bad thing happened and some angry people from Saudi Arabia hyjacked 4 American Airliners and flew 2 of the into buildings in New York, 1 into the Pentagon and the last airliner crashed in a Pennsylvania woods. This occured on September 11th and so it has since just been referred to as "Nine Eleven" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 08:16 AM Well, that is enough for me. Love the summary. And bobert, you were the one from the beginning that said this Poppagator fellow would help prove your point(s). Have not seen that yet - he did what any smart person would do and what all were told to do and got the hell of NO before the storm. I still don't know if you are an agitator, play "Devils Advocate" a basic wiseguy or badly uniformed. I happen to feel the latter is a large part of of this. You are the winner in one respect - ignorance is bliss and you are happy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:10 AM Relevance, por favor... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM You guys are a piece of work -- all you do is spew tangents around like some wanna-be circle running amok. Find the point. It's in the first few posts to this thread. Speak to the point. Pose a specific question and answer specific questions offered by others. What are y'all doing here? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM Good point, Amos and I think the following two posts say it all. No one here replied to the 01:35 AM post until bobert at 9:35 PM. WHy did others not respound? They were able to ascertain the real truth Post @ 08 January 01:35 AM and a post @ 9:35 PM same day. Once again, shrugging off the facts. As I said just above, that is enough for me. You can have Joe check for my ISP on this thread from now on if you don't believe me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:17 PM So what is yer point Amos? I got to ax you questions now since O'Bobert done shut down his propaganda machine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM Well, GUEST, since you were too indifferent to provide a link I crawled back in time to look at those posts. I don't see a question there, exactly. What is it you are saying? That the Governors delay in turning over authority to the Feds was responsible for the inactivity of the Federal government in responding? Why do you expect me to go to the trouble of trying to guess what you are implying? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM Well, Amos, I don't have a clue about GUEST's post... I also went back and reread them as if they were going to be some thunderous post that we all missed that contained the Holy Grail but, ahhhh, they seemed purdy mundane to me??? But one thing is fir sure... These GUEST's don't collectively have a rebuttal... Here we are well over 500 posts now and not one actual, ahhhh, rebuttal??? But they are persistent at gnat like distractions... But no real defense here... Oh sure, they say that Bobert has to have it his own way, or Bobert is this or Bobert is that... But no rebuttals??? But, hey, it has been entertainin', that's fir sure... Here GUEST A has changed his name to GUEST, Rufus trying to neddle me 'cause of my couzin Rufus... Hey, that's some funny stuff, Amos... And then he wandered over to Tweedsblues 'er somewhere to find stuff I said there about "stink bombs" that I'd almost forgotten I posted about Mudcat... I love it... Like I siad, very entertainin', indeed... No rebuttals, however, so I guess they know their boy screwed up royally but can't admit it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM BTW, I just returnd from performin' at a fundraiser, "Relay for Life", which raises money for cancer research down at the ball field in Luray... Big danged crowd... It was fun... Played with a 14 year old sax player, Luke "Saxman" Black, who can blow that horn... Don't hurt me none that his dad is assistent town manager but he sho nuff can blow that horn... Wonder what GUEST's did for their communities today???... (There you go agin, Bobert, blowing yer own horn about just how wonderful you are...) Thought I'd beat the GUEST's to their *** usual reaction*** and save 'um the time.. And, GUESTs, your welcome... But still curious about what you anonomous folks do in the real world... Hehe... Not that I'd believe anyone who is, ahhhhh, anon... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:15 PM GWB screwed up royally |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:35 PM O'Bobert misses "the big piccure" Won't answer any questions about how FEMA got to be part of DHS. In tha real world one way jerks don't need to answer questions. All they got to do is repeat them selves over and over and over. "Yeah, Junior loves to pimp out his chest " "Bush has pumped out his chest and sid over and over and over" "and chest pumpin' out" "Bush goes about pumping out his chest" "go 'round the country pumpin; out one's chest boasting" "Bush loved to pump out his chest and proclaim" "from pumping out his chest saying" "Bush didn't mind pumping out his chest" "a liar who pumped out his chest" Funny I never seen him pump out hiz chest even once. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:18 AM http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/05/ltm.01.html MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol. I'm Miles O'Brien. A grim mission in New Orleans. Teams going house-by-house to find the victims of Katrina who couldn't escape in time. The death toll expected to be in the thousands. How high could it go? Frightening to imagine. We're live in New Orleans this morning -- Soledad. SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Soledad O'Brien on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. This morning, you're going to hear my interview with the city's mayor. He'll tell us very candidly about his response before Katrina hit. Is he responsible for some of the blame? Also, we'll hear some details of the conversation that he had with the state's governor and President Bush on Air Force One. That's ahead -- Miles. M. O'BRIEN: And President Bush in the disaster zone again Friday and will be back there today. That's on this AMERICAN MORNING......... S. O'BRIEN: There are people who say your evacuation plan, obviously in hindsight, was disastrous. MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: Which one? S. O'BRIEN: Your evacuation plan before -- when you put people into the Superdome. It wasn't thought out. You got 20,000 people in there. And that you bear the brunt of the blame for some of this, a large chunk of it. NAGIN: Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens. And I don't know what else I could do, other than to tell them that it's a mandatory evacuation. And if they stayed, make sure you have a frigging ax in your home, where you can bust out the roof just in case the water starts flowing. And as a last resort, once this thing is above a category 3, there are no buildings in this city to withstand a category 3, a category 4 or a category 5 storm, other than the Superdome. That's where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done. S. O'BRIEN: What has Secretary Chertoff promised you? What has Donald Rumsfeld given you and promised you? NAGIN: Look, I've gotten promises to -- I can't stand anymore promises. I don't want to hear anymore promises. I want to see stuff done. And that's why I'm so happy that the president came down here, because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. And they were telling him things weren't as bad as it was. He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action. And what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate. And then, the president and the governor sat down. We were in Air Force One. I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two have to get in sync. If you don't get in sync, more people are going to die.' S. O'BRIEN: What date was this? When did you say that? When did you say... NAGIN: Whenever air Force One was here. S. O'BRIEN: OK. NAGIN: And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. And I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.' S. O'BRIEN: That's two days ago. NAGIN: They both shook -- I don't know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, 'Great.' I said, 'Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.' There was senators and his cabinet people, you name it, they were there. Generals. I said, 'Everybody right now, we're leaving. These two people need to sit in a room together and make a doggone decision right now.' S. O'BRIEN: And was that done? NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, "No, you guys stay here. We're going to another section of the plane, and we're going to make a decision." He called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision. S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision? NAGIN: Yes. S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in? NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places. S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no. NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died. Times-Picayune http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076943.html Sunday, September 04, 2005 Nagin said slow response cost lives Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 7:57 p.m. Frustrated and grieving, Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday again ripped the painfully slow response of state and federal authorities to the plight of tens of thousands of stranded New Orleanians in the days following Hurricane Katrina, saying their inaction cost lives and caused needless misery. Nagin singled out Gov. Kathleen Blanco for criticism, saying that the governor had asked for 24 hours to think over a decision when time was a luxury that no one, especially refugees, had. "When the president and the governor got here, I said, 'Mr. President, Madame Governor, you two have to get in synch. If you don't, more people are going to die." Blanco and Bush met privately at his insistence, Nagin said, after which Bush came out and told Nagin that he had given Blanco two options, and she requested a full day to decide. "It would have been great if we could have walked off Air Force One and told the world we had it all worked out," Nagin said. "It didn't happen, and more people died." Police spokesman Capt. Marlon Defillo said Sunday that "about a dozen" corpses were being taken out of the Superdome. The convention center "has not been swept yet," he said. Apart from the deaths, Nagin said people needlessly suffered, particularly at the Dome. "There was suffering at an unprecedented level in this city, at this place and at the convention center," he said. "This is one of the richest countries in the world. I'm looking at my city and I see death and destruction, and I see a lot of it. And I'm pissed." Nagin said while much of the suffering was borne by poor people, it would be a mistake to think it was limited to the poor. "When the final script is written, they're going to see that everyone suffered," he said. "Not just black people - white people, Hispanics, people from Italy. At the convention center, you had tourists, you had people from hospitals, you had a mixture of people." Asked whether he himself bore responsibility for the debacle, Nagin responded: "I'll take what responsibility I have to take. But let me ask you this: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a Category 5 bearing down on you, and the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people… and there's never been a mandatory evacuation in this city's history. "I did that, and I elevated the level of stress to the citizens. I said to make sure you have a fricking axe in your house. And as a last resort, there are no buildings in the city to withstand a Category 3 storm other than the Superdome, and when that filled up, we started sending them to the convention center. You tell me what else I was supposed to do." Nagin said the government needs to learn quickly from its nightmarishly slow reaction to Katrina. "Our response to a significant disaster is appalling," he said. "What went down is a national and state disgrace." The mayor said his next fear is that the decomposing bodies of those who died in the storm and its wake will spread disease, via mosquitoes, across the region if the corpses aren't picked up soon. Again, he feels the response has lagged. "I requested a crop duster as soon as possible," the mayor said. "I still don't see a plane flying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:32 AM Thanks Woody. Another three yards and you'll have a touchdown. Aside from throwing around yards and yards, what point is it that you are seeking to make? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM Snipers, Duck????? Oh, Fox never got around to retracting the "Snipers Lie"... http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html Sniper fire halts hospital evacuation Gunmen fire at medical workers and patients at Charity Hospital Thursday, September 1, 2005; Posted: 5:36 p.m. EDT (21:36 GMT) NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire twice. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774 Looting, Snipers Mar New Orleans Evacuation All Things Considered, September 1, 2005 · The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM It oughta tell y'all something about your government: It's impossible to get a straight answer outta the fu#kers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM Thanks, Woody... If you'll reread yer War "n Peace lenght cut an' post you'll find testimony from Ray Naygan that supports the very argument I have made here that has never been refuted... But that's going to make you real yer own cut 'n paste which I know is bothersome... Yo, Rufe, Relevance, por favor, to the discusssion, pal... You make a convincing and reasonable argument for why your question is related to Bush's failures an' I'll be glad to answer it but for you to just create red herrings, like P-Gator being a spokesman (which I never suggetsed) for the folks of New Orleans, is just your way of trying to create distractions... You know, like the quotes you are gleefully posting from thngs I've said over the course of this long thread... Bottom line, you can post another list of quotes but gues what??? Give up??? None of these quotes shows that I have devioated one inch from the original argument that I put forward and for which I am still awaiting a reasonable-- meaning being relevant and at least somewhat informed-- rebuttal... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:58 AM Lies & Distortions: MSM Made A Mess Of Katrina Coverage September 27, 2005 http://66.154.39.102/archives/2005/09/27/173834.php The title is the understatement of the year. While I was working in the Astrodome, Kit was keeping me up-to-date on what was going on in the media. Some of it raised my ire to fever pitch (as displayed in my curse-laden rant about the race-baiting), but most of it left me scratching my head. The rumors of the atrocities being committed in the Superdome were too far-fetched, unsubstantiated, and gruesome to be believed. I personally hated the thought of all blacks being painted with such a sordid brush. That's not because I was in some kind of naive denial, but because I simply didn't believe it of the people of New Orleans - or anyone, for that matter! Plus, I was among the Superdome evacuees everyday and every night, and everyone told me their stories. It was bad and pitiful and scary, but if the rapes and murders were going on like Nagin and his police chief sobbed to a teary Oprah, there is NO WAY there wouldn't have been evidence of such. I remember having that exact conversation with Kit, as she filled me in on the MSM's frenzy. I had the phone pressed to my ear to try and hear above the constant din inside the Astrodome. I kept saying, "No. No way!" as Kit enumerated one rumor after another that was being reported by the press as FACT. I didn't believe it then, and now we all know it was BS. The MSM is now forced to report on it's own irresponsibility in sensationalizing Katrina's aftermath. An article yesterday in the Seattle Times, Reports Of Anarchy At Superdome Overstated states: "The vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees at the Dome — murders, rapes and beatings — have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence." Really?? How false? How many dead bodies in the Superdome? Reported: 200 Actual: 6 (4 died from natural causes, 1 from a drug overdose, and 1 apparent suicide) How many murders inside the Superdome & Convention Center? Reported: 40-50 Actual: Superdome = 0, Convention Center = 1 Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities have only confirmed four murders in the entire city in the aftermath of Katrina — making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. The MSM rumor mill, at its peak, was churning out "news" such as: ...news of unspeakable acts poured out of the nation's media: People firing at helicopters trying to save them; women, children and even babies raped with abandon; people murdered for food and water; a 7-year-old raped and killed at the Convention Center. Police, according to their chief, Eddie Compass, found themselves in multiple shootouts inside both shelters, and were forced to race toward muzzle flashes through the dark to disarm the criminals; snipers fired at doctors and soldiers from downtown high-rises. In interviews with Oprah Winfrey, Compass reported rapes of "babies," and Mayor Ray Nagin spoke of "hundreds of armed gang members killing and raping people" inside the Dome. Other unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies "we couldn't count." The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, overwhelmingly African-American masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. The mayor told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state." Look at who is starting and perpetuating the rumors and mass panic - the police chief and ever-incompetent mayor!! I have to ask- is this a case of racial self-hatred? Why was it so easy for those guys to feed hysterical rumors of "animalistic" black evacuees? I hardly need to say that if they had been white, such generalizations would've gotten them arrested for HATE SPEECH! Let's take a look at the feeble CYA excuses from both Compass and Nagin, for the mass mis-characterization of their own people. Keep in mind the damage has already been done, but this is what they offer in the way of explanation: "The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," Compass said, admitting his earlier statements were false. Asked the source of the information, Compass said he didn't remember. Nagin frankly acknowledged he doesn't know the extent of the mayhem that occurred inside the Superdome and the Convention Center — and may never. "I'm having a hard time getting a good body count," he said. Compass conceded that rumor had overtaken, and often crippled, authorities' response to reported lawlessness, sending badly needed resources to situations that turned out not to exist. Much needed resources were diverted on wild-goose chases - really. As if there weren't enough problems, the city leadership created more, vastly worse conditions, because of their own asininity. With such feeble-minded nincompoops in charge of New Orleans, is there any question at all why chaos reigned? And I can't wait to hear what Oprah has to say about her overt help in the creation of an "animalistic" stereotype of her own people in the aftermath of Katrina. That deserves an Emmy, don't ya think? Military, law-enforcement and medical workers agree that the flood of evacuees — about 30,000 at the Dome and an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 at the Convention Center — overwhelmed their security personnel. The 400 to 500 soldiers in the Dome could have been easily overrun by increasingly agitated crowds in the Dome, but that never happened, said Col. James Knotts, a mid-level commander there. While the Convention Center saw plenty of mischief, including massive looting and isolated gunfire, and many inside cowered in fear, the hordes of evacuees for the most part did not resort to violence. Oh well. Nevermind the truth. I have to add, that at this point in the story, while National Guardsmen were patrolling the Superdome, they were being vilified by the press as randomly shooting people in the streets. I heard one rumor in the Astrodome about a 16 year old boy approaching some soldiers for help and being shot in the head for his trouble. Why is such a lie so easy for the media to believe and report? Because, in the mass media's value system, American soldiers are murderers and criminals. This goes back to the hysterical reporting of so-called tortures and murders - but that's another story we've already covered ad nauseum. Let me tell you what the evacuees in the Astrodome were saying about the media's coverage - they started to believe it. I can't tell you how many times I heard someone curse Bush for his "hatred of blacks" (thanks for that crap legacy, Kanye) or mutter about the country's "abandonment" of our poor blacks. It made me sick to my stomach, but with the way the media was pounding away at those themes, it was impossible to refute! In an article today in the LA Times, Katrina Takes A Toll On Truth, News Accuracy confirms more of the media's irresponsibility in reporting unconfirmed rumors as FACT. The National Guard spokesman's [MAJ Ed Bush's] accounts about rescue efforts, water supplies and first aid all but disappeared amid the roar of a 24-hour rumor mill at New Orleans' main evacuation shelter. Then a frenzied media recycled and amplified many of the unverified reports. "It just morphed into this mythical place where the most unthinkable deeds were being done," Bush said Monday of the Superdome. His assessment is one of several in recent days to conclude that newspapers and television exaggerated criminal behavior in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, particularly at the overcrowded Superdome and Convention Center. The New Orleans Times-Picayune on Monday described inflated body counts, unverified "rapes," and unconfirmed sniper attacks as among examples of "scores of myths about the dome and Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials." So, let's play the blame game for a sec. Who does the media blame for their shoddy, sensationalistic rag reporting? Why, the telephones, of course: Journalists and officials who have reviewed the Katrina disaster blamed the inaccurate reporting in large measure on the breakdown of telephone service, which prevented dissemination of accurate reports to those most in need of the information. Race may have also played a factor. I emphasized that last sentence because it was slipped in there as if the authors almost wanted the reader to overlook it. But that single statement is probably the most truth that's come out of the media in a looooooong time. Yes, of course, race played a factor. Racial prejudice is what lay at the root of the media's creation of the myth of blacks in New Orleans as out-of-control "animals". The reports coming out of New Orleans highlighted the racial prejudice of the reporters THEMSELVES! All that race-baiting they were doing, "Bush hates blacks", etc., was really nothing more than a sanctimonious cover for their own deeply-seated prejudices! And in the case of Nagin, Compass, and Oprah - what is their excuse? What made it so damn easy for them to instantly believe those grossest of rumors, when someone like me [a bad old Whitey] heard them and immediately said, "No way!"? Don't even get me started on asshats Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and all that stupid talk about the holds of slave ships. All those self-anointed black leader from Oprah to Compass to Jackson need to look deep inside at the ugly truth - they dealt their own people mortal PR wounds. They, themselves, set their own "movement" back about 200 years. How much sunshine and daisies will they have to produce to overcome the animalistic stereotype of their own people that they created out of thin air?!!!! Times-Picayune Editor Jim Amoss cited telephone breakdowns as a primary cause of reporting errors, but said the fact that most evacuees were poor African Americans also played a part. "If the dome and Convention Center had harbored large numbers of middle class white people," Amoss said, "it would not have been a fertile ground for this kind of rumor-mongering." Some of the hesitation that journalists might have had about using the more sordid reports from the evacuation centers probably fell away when New Orleans' top officials seemed to confirm the accounts. Yes, yes, yes - we got that now. But... what of the liberal media itself? What does their overtly sensationalized reporting say about them? Hyperbolic reporting spread through much of the media. Fox News, a day before the major evacuation of the Superdome began, issued an "alert" as talk show host Alan Colmes reiterated reports of "robberies, rapes, carjackings, riots and murder. Violent gangs are roaming the streets at night, hidden by the cover of darkness." The Los Angeles Times adopted a breathless tone the next day in its lead news story, reporting that National Guard troops "took positions on rooftops, scanning for snipers and armed mobs as seething crowds of refugees milled below, desperate to flee. Gunfire crackled in the distance." The New York Times repeated some of the reports of violence and unrest, but the newspaper usually was more careful to note that the information could not be verified. The tabloid Ottawa Sun reported unverified accounts of "a man seeking help gunned down by a National Guard soldier" and "a young man run down and then shot by a New Orleans police officer." London's Evening Standard invoked the future-world fantasy film "Mad Max" to describe the scene and threw in a "Lord of the Flies" allusion for good measure. How on earth does the media think they have an ounce of credibility with anyone anymore? They got caught up in their own hype and frenzy! It was an ugly self-perpetuating cycle. I saw it happen again with the non-stop Rita coverage. There was that same breathless, eager overtone to ALL the reports of Rita's path of destruction. I know - the media lives for this stuff. Death and destruction are the money shots for them. They're always thinkin', "Show me the money!" But for you liberal moonbats out there - doesn't this stop you short when you listen to the news reports coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan?! I mean, c'mon - you simply cannot believe the absolute crap the media reports as truth. The media's hidden biases have been exposed by Katrina the way nothing else could have. In the case of the New Orleans coverage - Katrina exposed the majority of the media as racist bastards, at a time when they were calling the rest of red America "racists". Is that a generalization? Hell yeah, it is! And a fair one, too- supported by the actions and shenanigans of the media itself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM Then I sneak out to Mudcat when them's is asleep and light stink bombs here in the Catbox... I know I shouldn't do it but |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:45 PM Yeah, the press certainly didn't have a clue... Not that this has anything to do with the discussion at hand but, hey, I was in Thaxton, Mississippi the week of Katrina at a buddy's recording studio recording my current CD and, well, my buddy is a FOX kinda guy... An' for two days straight FOX was reporting that snipers were shooting at doctors and nurses trying to help people at the hospitals??? Yeah, you could almost set yer watch by it... Seemed every 15 minutes it would be another report of sniper shootings... Now, I'm not much on FOX so upon returning to Virginia I went back to my usual news sources, i.e. The Washington Post, New York Times, Pacifica and the internet... By then the sniper stories had been fairly well debunked... Not too sure how much time FOX spent telling its folks that those stories had been debuynked but I'd bet it wasn't near as much as how much coverage they gave the stories during my week in Mississippi... Now back to Bobert patiently awaiting any intellegent rebuttal from the Bush apologists... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........ BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:44 PM So Fox was reportin the same things as da other networks? If they is propagandists like O'Bobert says, which by tha way is a deveeation fromm the parables laid down by himself, they should've been reporting somethin difernt. Now O'bobert can go back to sleep cause these Bush apologists he thinks exist don't exist. Theys tha fig newton of tha imagination of liberal wackos. Unless he wants to answer the perfecly Katrina related question about how FEMA got to be Part of DHS and where did DHS come from. An no he didn't already answer that one. You keep yappin about Bus did this to FEAM but ya sirts aroun any factc about why it wus changed around from the old Clintoon glory days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:19 AM Will be glad to, Rufe, once you have told the Peanut Gallery why such an inquiry is relevant to this discussion??? Back to Fox... The problem I had with FOX is the repetetive nature of the story... Repetitiveness is the cornerstone of brain-washing... When my buddy was doing other stuff I changed the channels the other networks weren't hung up on just this one aspect of the story... I mean, there was alot of stuff going on to spend so much time on the one story which, face it, plays to the angry white guy base of the Republican Party... Oh, an' BTW, if yer a dad, happy father's day... O'Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM #1 How many times has O'bobert refered to DHS an FEMA? Changes to FEMA? Back to tha Clintoon years? I gess he thinks they is revent when he want to bring up hiz own talkin points but he won't elaborate when it might bring some new ligh on the subjict of hiz choosin' #2 Exzample of O'Boberts brain washin: "Yeah, Junior loves to pimp out his chest " "Bush has pumped out his chest and sid over and over and over" "and chest pumpin' out" "Bush goes about pumping out his chest" "go 'round the country pumpin; out one's chest boasting" "Bush loved to pump out his chest and proclaim" "from pumping out his chest saying" "Bush didn't mind pumping out his chest" "a liar who pumped out his chest" Kin you documint where he pimped out hiz chest or do you think we is supposed to think yer rhetoric as a fact? I thinks you iz tha puffy one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:24 PM You still haven't answered the question, Rufe... Might of fact the more you play yer little rope-a-dope game here the more it would appear that the question the organizational history of FEMA that you keep asking is yet another of yer red herrings... Relevance, por favor... As fir Bush pumping out his chest, hey, unless you are either barin dead or just landed from a far away planet there is no doubt that Bush has boasted over and over and over about how "it is my [his] job to protect the American people"... Do you deny this??? Yes ___ No ____ Let's face it, ol' Rufer, yer position, whatever it is, is getting weaker and weaker with additional post... Pushing 600 posts and still not one intellegent rebuttal??? Hmmmmmmmm, Part 127??? O'Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM I agree he said his job is to pertect the American people, you too, even tho you focus yore destructive lazer beam on him in yore narry little mind. I don't member him pumpin out hiz chest at any time. An it didn't sound like no boast ta me. That's in yore mind. Jus some o yore retric that ya like ta add to tha facts and repeat it over an over so as to brain wash folks inta thinkin its fact. An ya can repeat "not one intellegent rebuttal" bout a hundred times or so an it ain't gona make what don't exist, exist. Ain't nobody goint to disputerate them fax ya dug up. What ya is gonna find is folks that objects to havin the local inept, corruted govnmint / first responders exonerated, gardless of whether you claim it ain't in the opening whatever or in the limits thet you have declared. If Katrina in tha name then anythin about Katrina is on topic. Ya don't mind getin off topic long enuf to rant bout Fox news do ya? No iz there any other question I done missed? If not spoze you start 'splainin bout how FEMA got screwed up cause ya haz talked bout DHS an FEMA umpteen times but only the parts ya needs to prove your nanometer wide needle point Bush attack that you thinks makes you so smart to conjure up. An then ya acuze others of missin tha big piccure. Sheeit. A ant would go blind tryin to see yore piccure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:35 PM he Nationwide Plan Review, ordered by President George W. Bush and Congress, examined whether the emergency plans of cities and states were adequate to manage another tragedy. "The majority of the nation's current emergency operations plans and planning processes cannot be characterized as fully sufficient to manage catastrophic events," the report said. "Significant weaknesses in evacuation planning are an area of profound concern," it said, adding that the capabilities to receive and care of large numbers of evacuees were found to be "inadequate." The Department of Homeland Security said in a statement: "Most areas of the country are well-prepared to handle standard situations." But the review findings "demonstrate the need for all levels of government across the country to improve emergency operations plans for catastrophic events such as a major terrorist attack or (top) category-five hurricane strike," it said. "Several areas, including evacuation, attention to populations with special needs, command structure and resource management, were areas needing significant attention," it said. The report also lists measures the federal government needs to take to improve and coordinate disaster planning. The findings "unequivocally support the need to modernize planning processes, products and tools, and to move our national emergency planning efforts to the next level needed for catastrophic events," said George Foresman, the department's under-secretary for preparedness. ... From the Physics Org.comn daily release |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:57 PM Yeah, Amos, I read this in the Past this past weekend... Seems that American cities aren't up to evacuatin' inspite of National Response Plans and all the boastin' by the Bushites about what a great job they've done in making the country safer... They haven't done jack... Oh yeah, R%ufe the Goof will argue that local governments are the problem but, no... ... local govrenments are having to take up the slack in paying for stuff that feds, under Bush, says they ain't interested in funding anymore... First repsonders included... Yeah, Bush can talk the talk but he ain't into walkin' the walk... He has cut, cut, cut federal money that has traditionally gone beack to the state and local governemtns to fund is absolutely stupid and evil war against the Iraqi people, mostly women and children.... And he's made danegd sure that his campaign contributors have been taken care of very well... So, seems there's just not a lot of money left for the states, otehr than pork barrel projects for thisd Republican House of Reps. folks to try to buy another couple of years of corrupt power... Yo, Rufe... Had a terrorist cell devistated any American city, lets say with a nuclear device, Bush wouldn't have been anymore prepared... He has talked a good game but bottom line, his folks haven't doen the heavy lifting that is required to put real operational plans in place... This is the crux of my citicism of the Bush administration... After 9/11 they had a wonderful opportunity bothe here and abroad to be a great adminstration but they choze to raid the the treasury rather than do what needed to be done... Period... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:05 AM http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/29513 The Wrong FEMA Fix By Greg Anrig, Jr. The entire 749-page report of the Collins-Lieberman Committee is now available and it's the most comprehensive chronicle to date synthesizing every mind-boggling failure you've heard about and many, many more. It lacks the stylistic virtues of the 9/11 Commission report, but it's pretty riveting reading nonetheless. Unfortunately, the committee's most important recommendation is completely wrongheaded, as the report itself demonstrates. Instead of retaining the agency's functions within the Department of Homeland Security while renaming it as the National Preparedness and Response Authority – yeah, that'll work much better! -- FEMA should be restored to its pre-DHS incarnation as a separate cabinet-level agency accountable directly to the president. section break Many of the reasons why FEMA's capabilities deteriorated so badly are directly attributable to its inclusion within DHS (recognizing that the selection of crony Joe Allbaugh as its initial pre-9/11 director started the downward spiral in a big way). Here are a few examples from the report: * After FEMA became part of DHS, Secretaries Ridge and Chertoff removed "preparedness" responsibilities from FEMA. Those activities, which include planning and conducting exercises as well as establishing standards, in the past helped to create effective working relationships between FEMA's staff and state and local officials. They also helped everyone to be on the same page when an actual emergency arose. Peeling off those responsibilities and the people who carry them out left FEMA with workers who had a less immediate grasp of whatever plans had been made. Relationships with state and local responders disappeared in the process. Several long-time FEMA officials said that separating the preparedness functions was a huge mistake, and it wouldn't have happened in the absence of turf battles initiated by the creation of DHS. * The highly successful emphasis in the 1990s on an "all-hazards" approach – one in which emergency preparation and response is organized to function the same regardless of the exact nature of particular disaster – dissipated. As part of a department created to focus on terrorism, FEMA's historical mission of dealing almost exclusively with problems created by Mother Nature became diluted by worrying about dirty bombs, sarin attacks, and so forth. It's still possible to retain an all-hazards approach in the context of preparing for terrorism as well -- the committee recommends as much – but the reality is that almost everything FEMA does still relates to a natural disaster. Situating it in an anti-terrorism department has had the effect of excessively complicating the agency's mission. * The report is filled with stories about how FEMA was unable to get adequate funding for staff, procurement, communications, logistics and so forth. That is unsurprising since its move to DHS has made it a small fish in a massive bureaucracy. When FEMA was a cabinet-level agency, with the director having the ear of the president, inadequate funding and staff vacancies were much less of a problem. FEMA used to work about as well as a government agency can, and nothing about 9/11 justified turning a silk purse into a sow's ear. The Committee report continues to talk about all the wonderful "synergies" that keeping FEMA – or NPRA, whatever – in DHS will generate. Synergy was a word that the very same people who pushed for the creation of DHS in the first place used a lot at the time. But so far, we've had nothing but whatever the opposite of synergy is. People who know what they're talking about like Richard Clarke and James Lee Witt think we should save FEMA from DHS, potentially saving a lot of lives in the process. Brownie at least admitted his mistakes, and now Bush, Collins, and Lieberman should admit theirs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:09 AM Amen, Woody... All these things are things I have pointed to in my various arguments and all of these things happened under the Bush administration... The funding cuts, the being taken out of the DHS loop so to speak and the lack of a cohesive plan... Throw in both Bush and Chertoff's loust reaction times and waalaa: Katrinagate... This is scandelous at the very least and should the Dems win back the House of Reps., you can bet that hearuings will reveal that what is out now is just the tip of the iceburg... But great post, Woody, and thanks... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM Why did they happin durin the Bush Administration? Who wanted it ta happen? "FEMA became part of DHS" Who What Why Where and When? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:04 AM Relevance, por favor... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Director Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM Where does all the info regarding lack of funding come from? The information I have is for my State ( I am involved im the preparedness stuff) and also talk with with other states. The reaction after 9/11 was fantastic with regard to funding - every Township Fire Department received, among other items, full body protection suits with respirators capable of resisting any gas or chemical known to man. Recently the amount of funding for disaster work has been increased even for Northern states. And, according to my budget figures, EVERY year has seen an increase in funding, regardless of events. I am curious. Or, have I fallen for a hoax? New to this Forum and don't know how much 'leg pulling' goes on here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:51 PM How many times you done mentioned DHS and FEMA? O'Bobert syle questionare: _____ I don know. _____ I don care. _____ I am too lazy ta answer. _____ I refuse ta answer on the grounds that it might stand ta incriminates me. Director: Ya can fergit trying to get ansers from O'Bobert. He jest dances an sidesteps em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM Well, director, if you aren't really GUEST, GUEST A, GUEST Woody 'er GUEST< rufus who may all be the same person, are you aware that per capita federal moneies favor smaller towns and rural areas over the large population centers??? So if yer in a small town, you probably made out quite well... I mean, check out what Wyoming got!!! It's humongous!!! But then again, it votes Republican... But never mind all that political stuff... Hey, one thing that was found during the 9/11 attacks was that first responders were unable to communicate with one another... Right??? The 9/11 CDomission said that in it's report... Now we go back to George Bush as the CEO of this company whoes job it is to make us all safer and guess what??? He and the DHS didn't address the problem of communications... This is just one example of his administartion's failings.... But don't believe me... Believe Senator John McCain and fellow Republican Senator Curt Weldon from Pennsylvavnia... After Katrina they wrote: "The federal government needs to develop a comprhensive, interopable emergeny communications plan and set equipement standards, fund the purchase of emergeny and interoperable communications equipment, and provide additional radio spectrum that will allow first responders to communicate over long distances using the same radio freguencies and equipement." They went on to say, "We can only imagine how an improved communications systems could have aided rescue workers in their efforts to respond to the needs of citizens after Hurrican Katrina." So here we are yet again when Bush has [pumped out his chest] and told the American people that it's his job to protect them and the 9/11 Commission provided him with a bypartisan roadmap in how to do that and yet Republican Seantors John McCain and Curt Weldon write after Katrina that, in essence, the Bush administration hadn't fixed this major problem??? This is all about first resopnse and Katrina showed that Bush and his folks were just praying that something like 9/11 or Katrina wouldn't come along and expose just how little they had done in the way of the heavy lifting and funding the things that the 9/1q1 Comission itself had told them were needed to be organized anf funded in order to "protect the American people"... And, guess what??? If, GUEST, director, you don't want to know more and more about the failings of the Bush folks in regards to Katrina, then vote Republican this November 'cvause if the Dems take the House, yer going to learn alot more stuff that perhaps, if you are Bush supporter, you'd rather have been left under the carpet... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:28 PM Wow, very difficult to decipher. First point, Wyoming is not a "smaller town or a rural area". One error for you and more to come. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:46 PM You are wrong as wrong can be, GUEST... It is both "ruarl" and has "small towns"... Goeography 001 (Non credit, remedial, for students who think that the world is flat and California is an eastern city outside of Chicago, Indiana...) That's 'bout as eat up dumbass as you've been lately, GUEST... Nice work... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM I also meant to say that there are two guidelines for funding - population and land mass. Wyoming is the 9th largest State. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Director Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM Again, Wyoming is a State and has been since 1890. I am the one who suggested to you that Wyoming is a State. You were discussing "small towns". And then said "check out Wyoming got". You don't appear to be too lucid at this point in time. Possibly we could continue this 'discussion' tomorrow? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:40 PM LOL, GUEST = GUEST, Director = GUEST A = GUEST, Whoever... So ya' figurate that the terrorists are gonna hit Wyoming becuase it's big???? Is that yer final answer??? Yes ________ No ___________ LOL, GUEST... You are entertainin', that much is fir sure... (No, BObert, the terrorists are going to hit Wyoming because Osoma had a dream about the number 1890...) Oh, sheeeeitttt... Not Wyoming, Osama... Please don't run a plane into Wyoming... Hey, you'd prollay kill half a dozen folks!!!! LOL... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,D Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:55 AM Well, so much for the concept of lucidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:50 AM Yeah, GUEST,D who is realy GUEST, A, GUEST, GUEST, Rufus, GUEST, etc, etc.etc... You folks ain't addin' nuthin' new to the discussion 'cept insignificant little distractive sidebars and tangents... Why didn't you respond to what Senators McCain and Weldon had to say about the poor organization and funding by the Bush administartion for 21st century communication sytems and equipement??? Do you realize that when stuff hits like Katrina or 9/11 that the folks at home watching their TV's know more abnout the bigh picture than those first reponders who in the trenches doing the heavy lifting??? Now I can understand how this could have occured on 9/11 but Katrina??? Inexcusable... Shameful... Lucid 'nuff fir ya??? Or would you just like to continue discussing why Wyoming deserves more per capita $$$ from Bush thru the DHS than does New York City??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:13 AM Ain't nobody here Rufus but Rufus an I am waiting fer O'Bobert to anser wif that background on DHS an FEMA. However he caint anser that wifout makin hisself look stupid so he keeps avoidin the answer. He floats like a butterfly wif his chest pumped out an stings like a stingy bee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM No, not really, Rufe... Like I'ver said over and over I'll be more than happy to respond to yer qwuestion when you have shown it has relevance to this thread... You seem to delight in tryin' to highjack this thread whith stuff that has no relevance... You beat poor ol' P-Gator into the New Orleans mud before you barely explained why he was relevant and then, an only then did I respond to the tangent... Like I say, you explain the relevance of yer question with yer next post and you'll get an answer.... It's you who is playin' the games here, pal, not me... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Director Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:02 PM "Where does all the info regarding lack of funding come from?" I do believe that was my first comment in entering this discussion. And, after reviewing this thread, It would appear that Mr. Bobert should be the one to answer. Care to illuminate us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:42 PM Try Republican John McCain and Republican Curt Weldon, fir starters... And fir the record, director, we all know who you are... Hey, folks 'round here ight have been born at night but not last night... GUEST, director = GUEST, Rufus = GUEST, A... That much is fir sure... How many other GUESTs don't matter much... The 3 of you is all the same person... And, hark, still no answer to O'Bobert's question as to relevance... And the beat goes on, and on, and on and GUEST still ain't gotta clue... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........ Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM I done answered yore question severl times but you act like I ain;t so yaa don't have ta answer. O'Bobert: "No disrespect meant, it just seems that you ahve become very obsessed with details and missing the big piccure" What big piccure are ya talkin about O'Bobert?? Are ya just gonna give us that fine details ya are obsessed with? 567 posts on this here thread an O'Bobert still can't or won't tell us how FEMA got ta be part of DHS an why. Either he don't know or he 'fuses cause it will make him look stupid. Cmon Mr expert, Mr. researcher show us your inteligence cause yore silence demontraits tha lack thereof. "The 3 of you is all the same person" nuther WRONG pissant excuse fer not answerin a 100% on topic question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:30 AM LOL, Rufe... And, no, you ***haven't*** answered the question of relevance even one time... By reasking the question over and over and then saying that you've answered why this is important is yer little game, but not an answer... Are you afraid to make an argument of yer own??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Rufus Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM O'Bobert: "This i8s the way the Bush asdminisration itself reorganized DHS and FEMA..." It's is relevant when ya want's it ta be but it ain't relative when ya dont want ta answer. 569 posts and O'Bobert still caint demonstrait the smarts he claims ta have. He don't want to admit that other people demanded tha creation of HDS and then thay demanded that FEMA be stuck inta DHS. This might put tha blame for tha disorganation of FEMA on sombody other than O'Boberts emnemy that he likes ta dump on ever chance he gits. O'Bobert is "very obsessed with details and missing the big piccure" I'll be goin away fer a week but I'll be back an waitin for O'Bobert ta persent tha big piccure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:07 AM http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/sociss/release.cfm?ArticleID=1127 Professor R. Scott Fosler: "It took a lot to build FEMA into an effective disaster planning and response agency ten years ago and grand bureaucratic shifts won't be sufficient to fix what's wrong now. It should never have been put in a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) in the first place. But now it is not so easy just to yank it out of DHS. You have to first ask whether it will have the legs to stand on its own, what role it will play in addressing terrorism and how it will relate to a significant new factor: the Department of Homeland Security itself. We can't simply go back to square one, because things have changed. We must stop the senseless bureaucratic box-shuffling, the organizational 'amputation before diagnosis.' Let's first think through where we are now, and how we can best move forward from that position." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:14 PM Well, gol danged, Rufe... Thank you for ***finally answering*** my question but, my friend... ...what difference does it make??? Hey, if I'm hired on as a CEO of a corporation that widgets and the board of directors tells me that they also want to get into making framastats then, hey, that's life... I took the job... Congress doesn't pour over budget requests, the executive does... And the exectutive presents a budget to Congress for approval... It is the executive branch of or goevernment who sets the priorities and in doing so gives some agenmcies greater power than others... Bush and his folks presented the DHS budget to Congress... And within this budget was money for FEMA... Congress didn't tell Bush how much they wanted him to spend for DHS or FEMA... No, Bush told Congress what he wanted to spend and guess what, Rufe??? Give up??? Well, Bush choze to gut FEMA and sent a budget to Congress which, in essence, gutted FEMA and Congress approved it... This was Bush's decision... Now if you see things differently, Rufe, please let me know and we can discuss our differences but, please, please, please, no more guessing games... Now, related to the guttin' of FEMA things just haven't been flowin' to smoothly in terms of Katrina victims getting assistance... Just yesterday a Lousinana U.S. Judge, Stanwood Duval, Jr., while ruling that FEMA hadn't broken any laws in how it provides data related to the rerquirements for attaining assistance said (overta dictum???): "Rather than hiding behind bureautic double-talk, obscure regulations, outdated computer programs, anmd politically loaded platitudes such as 'people need to take care of themselves' as the fave of the federal government in the aftermath of Katrina, FEMA's goal should have been to foster an environment of openness and honesty with all Americans affected by the disaster. Sharing information in simple, clear, and precise terms and delineating the terms and conditions of available assistance in an up-front and forthright manner, does just that." While back in Washington, D.C. the House Homeland Security Committee heard testimony from both Mayors Anthony Williams (D- Wahington, D.C.) and Michael Bloomberg (R-New York City) who were each critical of the Bush funding formulas for counterterrorism, including first responders, that the Bush administartion has put forward... Just a few quotes form the various Republican House commttee members: Didn't pass "the common-sense test"... Rep Rob Simmons (R-Conn.) "It was indefensible, it was disgraceful, and to me it raises very, very real questions about the competency of this department in determining how its going to protect America."... Peter King (R-N.Y.) "How could a rational process produce such a dysfunctional conclusion?"... (R-Mayor Bloombery, N.Y. City) "Something wrong with the formula"... (R- Jim Gibbons, Nev.) Yeah, Rufe... Seems as if you are about the only person, other that Bush and his tiny circle of advisors who don't think we're living thru one of the great scandals of complete ineptitudnees of all time... And with the hrrican season in force, we're no better off than the day Katrina hit... Yet yer boy has never once aplogized for boasting that it was his job to protect the American people (see Representaive King's remarks above) when he hadn't asked for the funding that would have that... But forget the apology... We know Bush don't do that kinda stuff... But he continues to make decisions that don't "protect the American people"... These are the facts my friend... You may just be the kind pwerson who likes to go down fightin' but now even the Repub are coming to see what I have been arguing' for a long time now... Hmmmmmmmmm? O'Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Blanco .... Hurricane Katrina Governor Blanco is still grappling with the massive damage to the State of Louisiana in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina which struck Louisiana on August 29, 2005. Her response to the catastrophe has resulted in Time Magazine's labeling her a "failure"[1] in a section called "The Worst Governors in America." [2] Extensive and severe damage was caused by the Hurricane across the Gulf Coast region of the southeastern United States, including Louisiana's largest city, New Orleans, on August 29, 2005. Actions in advance of Katrina On August 27, 2005, Governor Blanco speaking on Hurricane Katrina told the media in Jefferson Parish "I believe we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about."[3] Later that day she issued a request for federal assistance and US$9 million in aid to President George W. Bush, which stated, "...I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal." Also in the requesting letter, the governor stated: "In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan."[4][5] [6] FEMA, issued a statement dated August 27, that President Bush authorized the allocation of federal resources, "following a review of FEMA's analysis of the state's request for federal assistance." [7] A White House statement of the same date also acknowledges this authorization of aid by President Bush. [8] On August 28, Governor Blanco sent a letter to President Bush, which increased the amount of aid requested to US$130 million. [9] Time magazine has reported that on August 29, the day that Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, Governor Blanco could reach neither Bush or his chief of staff and had to leave a message pleading for help with a low-level adviser. [10] On Aug. 28 Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff failed to reach Blanco by telephone. A 12:30 p.m. e-mail to aides from a Homeland Security official stated "Your assistance would be much appreciated,". Deputy Press Secretary Roderick Hawkins wrote in an e-mail at 1:59 p.m. to his boss, Denise Bottcher, "I think she's asleep now." At approximately 2:15 p.m. Hawkins e-mailed the official stating that "Governor Blanco is unavailable at the present time. . . . You may reach her at approximately 3 p.m." Later that day Chertoff and Blanco did talk via telephone. [11] Actions following Katrina On September 1, 2005, Governor Blanco authorized National Guard troops to "shoot and kill" rioters and looters, [12] which followed President Bush's statement that looters in New Orleans and elsewhere in the chaotic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina should be treated with "zero tolerance" [13]. The attitude to looters, and the perception that police and national guard resources were diverted to deal with looters, were sources of controversy and criticism. Governor Blanco was also criticized for allegedly having only a minor subset of her available National Guard troops standing by on ready, and for not being able to provide relief supplies and standby medical or other first responder personnel to New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin for the victims of the hurricane. A Newsday article by Jim Pinkerton, for example, claims "The Louisiana Guard has about 11,000 members, of whom 3,000 are in Iraq. And yet, of the remaining 8,000 in the Pelican State, fewer than half were on duty the day Katrina struck." [14] Louisiana did indeed have only 3,500 ready out of 6,500 national guards available according to a different article in the Chicago Tribune; in comparison, the much harder-hit state of Mississippi had 850 guards on duty, and Alabama had 350 as of August 30. [15] In addition, Governor Blanco had accepted an offer of National Guard reinforcements from New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson. Although this agreement was made on August 28, the day before Katrina struck, the paperwork required to deploy troops did not arrive from the federal government until September 1. The specific cause of the delay is unclear. [16] An article in the Washington Post cites three state and federal officials as stating collectively that "Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until August 31." It also quotes one as saying erroneously that as of September 3, Governor Blanco had not declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. [17] Controversy has continued to circle the issue of the National Guard. According to an article in Newsweek [18], President Bush and Governor Blanco met on Air Force One on Friday, September 2, 2005 while it sat on the tarmac at the New Orleans airport. Echoing requests submitted by President Bush to Governor Blanco in a memo prior to the meeting, Mayor Nagin suggested federalizing the National Guard to improve the command structure. According to both Sen. David Vitter, a Republican ally of Bush's, and Mayor Ray Nagin, the Democrat Mayor of New Orleans, Bush turned to Governor Blanco and said, "Well, what do you think of that, Governor?" Blanco told Bush, "I'd rather talk to you about that privately." To which Nagin responded, "Well, why don't you do that now?". Immediately following that private meeting, according to a September 7, 2005 Washington Times article [19], Mayor Nagin said that "He (Bush) called [Nagin] in that office, and he said, 'Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor.' I was ready to move. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision." Governor Blanco subsequently rejected the proposal. President Bush continued to press the offer so Governor Blanco rejected it in writing on September 6, citing the need for flexibility in National Guard operations, particularly the need for Guard in areas other than New Orleans where the military is not currently operating.[20] Governor Haley Barbour of Mississippi reportedly declined a similar offer from the President. It has not previously been a policy during natural disasters to combine the command of National Guard and military operations under the authority of the President.[21] President Bush has the power to take command of National Guard brigades under the Insurrection Act without the agreement of a state Governor, but no President has done this since Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s and President Bush has so far also declined to do so. However, Governor Blanco and Major General Bennett Landreneau, commanding Louisiana's National Guard, have co-operated closely with Lieutenant General Russel Honore, commanding military operations under Joint Task Force Katrina.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:41 PM http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/storm/etc/cron.html ....Saturday, August 27 "The Storm is Headed Right for You" Katrina becomes a Category 3 with 115 mph maximum sustained winds. By the end of the day it is 335 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi River. The expected storm surge is 15 to 20 feet, locally as high as 25 feet. FEMA Situation Update: "Coastal residents jammed freeways and gas stations as they rushed to get out A direct hit could wind up submerging New Orleans in several feet of water At least 100,000 people in the city lack transportation to get out ... Louisiana and Mississippi make all lanes northbound on interstate highways..." National Hurricane Center director Max Mayfield tells the Times-Picayune newspaper, "This is scary this is the real thing." A Louisiana State University computer model of a 115 mph storm strike shows the overtopping of levees protecting New Orleans and nearby areas. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin says he'll follow the state evacuation plan and will not call for mandatory evacuation until 30 hours before projected landfall. He also announces that the Superdome will be "a shelter of last resort for evacuees with special needs." Some parishes order mandatory evacuations. Ray Nagin, mayor of New Orleans: "I got a call, I think Saturday afternoon [from] Max Mayfield, the hurricane director. And he said definitively, "Mr. Mayor, the storm is headed right for you. I've never seen a hurricane like this in my 33-year career. And you need to order mandatory evacuation. Get as many people out as possible." At that time, I thought we had done a pretty good job because we had gotten about 80 percent of the people out. I immediately hung up the phone, called my city attorney because they had always advised that you can't do a mandatory evacuation. And I said, "We're doing one in the morning." Kathleen Blanco, governor of Louisiana: She requests President Bush to declare a state of emergency in Louisiana. "I went into New Orleans ... and stood beside Mayor Nagin and emphasized the need to leave. I gave people clues on how to pack. And we said, "Plan your route carefully. Pack carefully. Pack as though you're going on a camping trip. Bring enough to sustain yourself, your family, your children. " Michael Brown, FEMA director: "I at least wanted a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans and the surrounding parishes [on Saturday]. We've all feared a catastrophic hurricane striking New Orleans. That is why the first place we picked to do an exercise and planning was New Orleans. And based upon that ["Hurricane Pam" planning exercise], I knew they needed to evacuate. ".... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:47 PM Problem with yer cut'n paste, Woody, is that Blanco has release over 100,000 documents to show what she was doing during Katrina and Bush is caliming Executive Privilecdge in not turning over his side of the story... Hmmmmmmmm??? Like what's got to hide??? Nevermind, I'll answer that fir ya.... ...lots and you had better vote Repub 'cause if you vote Dem and the Derms take back either house of Congress, yer gonna find out that what I've been able to get against the boy wil pale in comparision to what the Congressional comittee, with supena powers, will get... Vote Repub for silence!!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,woody Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:49 PM http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/storm/etc/cron.html .....Wednesday, August 31 "We Should Have Asked Sooner" Gov. Blanco announces New Orleans must be evacuated because of the still- rising water and uninhabitable conditions. Mayor Nagin estimates 50,000 to 100,000 people remain in the city. Rescue efforts are delayed because of the inability of rescuers to communicate with each other. Virtually all communication systems are out. City officials say 80 percent of New Orleans is flooded. FEMA organizes 475 buses to be sent in to transport many of the estimated 23,000 people from the Superdome to the Houston Astrodome. Newly rescued people are still being brought to the Superdome. Widespread looting continues. Evacuating hospitals is a top priority: Patients and staff are stranded and supplies and power are dwindling. By midday, water levels between the city and Lake Ponchartrain have equalized. The Army Corps of Engineers renews work to fix the breach in the 17th St. Canal. President Bush flies over the area on his way back to Washington. He announces FEMA is moving supplies and equipment into the hardest hit areas. Gov. Kathleen Blanco: "All I know is on Wednesday night I was convinced that there were no FEMA buses. I began to believe that no buses had been ordered. We were moving school buses in. But they're designed for short hauls." Walter Maestri, Jefferson Parish emergency manager: "What we did -- under Louisiana law the parish presidents, the head of the counties, have the authority to use private resources. In all honesty, we begin looting. We go to Sam's and Wal-Mart and Winn-Dixie and gather up food and water and start distributing it because we had 60 hours' worth of resources that we had stored, but now we're out of it. When we didn't get any assistance from the state or from FEMA in the time period that we thought was appropriate, I got someone in an automobile and said, 'Go to Baton Rouge, go find out. I've got to know. Go up there, face to face and say, "What is happening here? Where is water? Where is food? Where is all the things that we need to get out of here?"' And he passes, literally, hundreds of school buses lined up to come and get these folks. But the problem was that because of the fear that resulted from the civil unrest, the bus drivers said, 'We're not going in there to pick these people up unless you put a law enforcement official on every one of the buses, because we're afraid.'" Michael Brown, FEMA director: "As I have said, I think that one of the biggest mistakes that I made as the FEMA director during Katrina was not immediately turning to the military and saying: 'We have been overwhelmed. We need you to take over logistics, distribution of commodities, etc.' We immediately did turn to the military and mission-assigned them to start doing airlifts, start bringing things in. The mistake that I made was not doing that sooner and not giving them the orders that we needed them to do all of that immediately. Governor Blanco probably should have asked sooner. I probably should have asked sooner. I think we both should have asked sooner."... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:59 PM Woody: Why do you expect people to read your long cut and pastes? You think they're somp'n special? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM Well, Amos, Ihave figurated thw Woody part of it... Sawdust fri brains... Ain't got nuthin' of his own to post... Heck, last week he actually accidently cut 'n posted some stuff that argued against Bush... But, hey, I thanked him fir it anyway... Other than that, no original thoughts or posts as far as I can see... Bobert BTW, I still have never posted a cut 'n paste... All my stuff I come by the ol' fashion way: hard work... Hmmmm? Maybe this explains why these GUESTs can't keep up... No brag, just fact... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:29 PM http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4846565 Morning Edition, September 14, 2005 · Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT), the ranking Democrat on the Homeland Security Committee, talks about Congress' responsibility for what went wrong in the initial Katrina response. Lieberman was one the main architects of the Department Homeland Security, which transformed FEMA from an independent agency to part of a large bureaucracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:39 PM Who submits the budget, Woody??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 23 Jun 06 - 12:56 AM http://www.bronnergroup.com/news/fema.htm To help get the job done, the administration is asking Congress to more than double the agency's funding for fiscal 2003 to $6.6 billion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM Woody, Woody, Woody... I'm real disappointed in you, pal... Like Paul Harvey used to say, "Now for the rest of the story..." What happened to that $6.6B? Ya' give up? Well, Bush used it as a slush fund to fund the Department of Homeland Security and his war in Iraq!!! That's were the dough went!!! And FEMA wasn't the only agency that was raided... Bush also moved funds out of the Army Corps of Engineers at a time when the levee system in New Orleans needed a minimum of $100M to withstand a Cat 3 hurricane. But rather than have the $100M neeeded and requested by the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA, only 20% was funded in fiscal year 2003 and even less, 17% in 2004??? Meanwhile back at FEMA, the lootin' was out-of-control for DHS and the Iraq War leavin' FEMA without the staff or resources it needed to perform at 90's capabilities... "Eric Tolbert, a former top disaster response official in the Busdh administration, knew calamity like Hurrican Katrina would be coming sooner or later. And he also knew that the Federal Emergency Management Agency, where he worked until February, was not ready to properly respond. There were too few employees, not enough contracts in place to provide assistance, and a lack of money to do proper pre-palnning. The added burden of the war on terror, he says, diverted funds away from FEMA's core mission." "FEMA had to compete and had to help finace the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. They were taking chunks of money out of the budget. We always referred to it as taxes." (Source: "Anatomy of an unnatural disaster", by Michael Scherer, Solon) And that, my fiends, is the rest of the story... A gutted FEMA... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM Hmmmmmmmmmm? Things got real quiet 'round here... Maybe the various GUESTs have seen now what I saw a long time ago??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:52 PM bobert, I think the "Guests" can see what you can't or won't and have decided to pour no more water down this rathole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 06 - 11:02 PM LOL, GUEST, an' thank you for yer unconditional surrender... Long overdue... Yeah, you like to think of it as a rathole and in a sense it is thinkin' of the money that has gone into whetever while the Ameerican people have never been ********less********* protected in my lifetime... Enjoy yer tax cuts, GUEST, and yer corrupt government... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:26 PM No surrender, but I did not expect you to understand. And yes, I am enjoying my tax cuts. By the way, the premise was - at the bottom of the rathole we will find bobert, ignoring everything he doesn't want to understand or can't discern. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:52 PM Guest, your surrender is duly documented; it began when you elected to make ad hominem slurs unsupported by rational statements, under the cheap cover of anonymity, rather then being willing to state facts in support of your views, or even state your views clearly. This silly ad hominem slapping fight with Bobert looks about your speed, but it indicates that you have surrendered something far more improtant in the form of your own integrity. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 26 Jun 06 - 03:09 PM Amos, my good man (well, benefit of the the doubt since you are as anonymous to me as I to you) I surrender nothing and as far as not using supporting data, bobert would only believe what he choses to in his tiny Socialist leaning mind. Unlike him, I am cognizant of my understanding of the Katrina situation. Let it be known that not all of the Guest comments here are mine but I agree with many. My integrity is fine with me and my friends and that is what counts. Jousting on a forum such as this one should not provoke that question, well, unless one's life is predominately focused here. And speaking of integrity, one could be moved to reflect on yours as you strive to defend a person known for his insults, buffonery, bluffing and always striving to put down another who just might have a clue as to what they were talking about. Amos, why not relax and just take this forum with a grain of salt, eh? Hopefully it is not such an integral part of your life as you are appearing to make it out to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM So, GUEST, are you suggestin' that "you just mighty have a clue as to what they were talking about"? Great, so... ... exactly which post of yours offered any rebuttal to my original position??? Yeah, I'm lookin' forward to rereading it to see just what constitutes in yer mind your understanding of either my arguments or your "understanding of the Katrina situation"... And sure, you think this is a put-down and, yeah, I guess it is... You choze a lousy side to defend... Bobert (and his "tiny Socialist leaning mind"...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:32 PM Californians know that a devastating earthquake could occur anywhere in the state at any time. And we also know that a major earthquake would cause hundreds or thousands of deaths, widespread homelessness, and massive property damage. Although Californians are aware of these important facts, somehow the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) still do not seem to have gotten the message. Last September, I requested a copy of the FEMA disaster recovery plan for California. After several months, I was disappointed to receive a general reply outlining the things that might happen following a generic disaster. Recently, following a new report from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography on the geologic stress that is present especially along the southern portions of the San Andreas Fault -- and the likelihood that a major earthquake is, in fact, overdue -- I again asked for a detailed plan for actions that would follow an earthquake. In a letter to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, I have again requested a plan specific to California on the steps that would be taken in the immediate aftermath of an earthquake to respond to widespread destruction. Sadly, it appears that little has changed at FEMA in the year following Hurricane Katrina. The agency appears to be woefully unprepared for an earthquake of major magnitude and the devastation that would follow in California. You can count on me to continue to demand a substantive plan that is designed to keep Californians safe in the days following an earthquake. Sincerely, Barbara Boxer United States Senator From a broadcast email from Sen. Boxer. Surprised? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:28 PM Normal under the war adminstrattion... No time or dough for Americans... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:23 PM Relevance por favor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:03 PM It is relevant in establishing the on-going mindset of the administration in despite of the lessons one would presume that right-thinking and reaosnably intelligent managers might have learned from katrina. If that simple extension is not obvious, I suggest a remedial course in the peculiarities of human reasoning. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM You and Bobert refuse to answer any questions that might upset your little apple cart by screaming "guests are chicken". "Bush supporter" and "not relevant" but when somebody posts anything anti Bush, relevant or not, guest or not, it's Amen brother, Huzzah and right on. Where is the action, not just words, from the political party that wanted to create DHS and who wanted FEMA to be part of DHS?? Libs are very good at jawboning, criticizing and Monday morning quarterbacking but not at taking action. HMMMMM don't see anything in Bobert's opening post that he keeps holding everybody but his liberal cartel to about Boxer, earthquakes, California or mindset. It seems Bobert's pumped out chest thrust here is that Bush appointed Brown as a set up to blame Katrina on: Well, well, well... "Yer doin' a good job, Brownie" Well, in this case he might have or might not have but one thing fir sure is that Bush and Homeland Security Director, Micheal Chertoff weren't up to the task... Ahhhh, how many Bush apologists have ever heard of the "National Response Plan"??? (Hmmmmmm, Bobert, none holdin' up their hands...) Well, it was unvieled last January by the DoHS and it "was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-September 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter). "It very clearly says that in a catastrope, where you either anticipate or it has allready happened that locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take (a) proactive steps to protect the lives of citizens." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter) "Ultimately, this plan designates the Secretary of Homeland Defense as the person who is supposed to be the principal federasl official in charge when disater strikes" (Ibid) So here's the way it was upposed to work, folks... Top down and not vice versa... Brownie wasn't the one callin' the shots here... So we fast forward to the Congressional hearing with Michael Brown... Rep. Christopher Shays: "Now, with the non-evacuation, when you knew that niether the governor or mayor were going to do their job, did you call- and I would like to bring the President in. When did you contact ther President to say we have a catastrophe happening with an incompetent mayor and incompetent governor not responding to this. When did you contact the President to let him know this extraordinary crisis that would impact our country?" Michael Brown: "I talked to the White House on both Saturday and Sunday. And throughout the disaster." Sheys: "So the first conversation was Saturday?" Brown: "I think the first conversation was Saturday, yes. It may have been Friday, but I have to go back and check my records." Shays: "Why not sooner? I mean, you had indications that this was- I mean, we knew on Friday that it was going to hit New Orleans, and we knew by Friday that it was going to be basiclly as category four ot five. You had a pretty good sense that the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had- even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?" Brown: "Yes, that's the plan, correct." Shays: "Yeah, okay. Amd they didn't implement it. So did you ask for, quote unquote, a "higher authority" to help you out so you could help save lives?" Brown: "I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?" Shays: "Did you ask for a higher authroity to help you out? You're the head of FEMA, but the governor and mayor aren't paying attention to you. I want to know who you asked for help." Brown: "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House." Shays: "To who?" Brown; "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House." Shays: "The White House is a big place. So give us specifics. I'm not asking about conversations yet, I want to know who you contacted." Brown: I exchanged emails and phones calls with Joe Hagin, Andy Card and the President." BINGO, folks!!!! So here is my question. Given that a FEMA reaction is top-down triggered then if Bush knew of what was going down, as Brown has said he did, then shouldn't the orders dome from the top, seein' as Bush's own National Response Plan outlined??? Hey, Brownie did his job... Bush didn't, since he knew that a category for or five hurricane was about to hit New Orleans, had been told by Brownie that the local authorities were not up to handling the situation... Bush should have told Certoff to get the ball rolling... Hey, it wasn't like some other administyartion had writtne the National Response Plan... It was the Bush administarion and when it was time for it to be implimented, drunk frat boy was yet again... AWOL... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:09 PM Well, a deeply felt tahnks fir reposting some of the stuff I have posted in the past... Saves me the aggrivation... You make it sound as if I or anyone other than the Bush folks have any real say in what goes in regardd to Katrina or much of anything that goes on America??? Where on Earth did you get that idea??? Your party and yer president have the microphone and all the control levers... Not the Dems... Not me... I mean, lets get real here for one minute... Look at the very screwed up Mediciad drug perscription plan... The Dems were locked out of conferences where the plan was written secretly by the Repubs and lobbiests, handed an 1800 page bill and given less than 24 hours to familiarize themselves with it in order to vote... Get it yet, GUEST???... What we've seen since 9/11 is one part ****rule****... We ahven't had "govern" ment but, ahhhh, friggin' ****rulerment****... And, yeah, yer guys have messed up their ruling purdy danged bad... Brownie was right... Hey, he was given an agency that was once very effective that had been stripped by yer guys, all the while they were going around the universe tellin' folks they had everything covered and then Katrina!!!.... Their worst nightmare because it exposed the *****fact***** that Bush and the boyz were lieing thru their teeth... Yeah, thems is the facts and here we are zeroin' on, what, 600 posts and id don't mean nuthin' if FEMA was under DHS or Mickey Friggin Mouse, it was underfunded, under staffed and was just a sheel of its old self when Bush was saying he had every thing covered... You wanta defend the lies, GUEST, have at it... That's the beauty of being a GUEST... You can argue the stupidist positions... So have at it...It's entertaining... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM Get it yet Bobert? Pump out your chest and tell us: Where is the action, not just words, from the political party that wanted to create DHS and who wanted FEMA to be part of DHS?? You won't answer that because it casts some of the blame on someone other than GWB which is your agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM By the way what the hell does Mediciad have to do with your topic? Another example of your veering off the topic when you want to but to avoid answering questions you say "Relevance por favor?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM bobert, the Medicaid plan was hatched that way cause the Dems have fucked up every entitlement they have been involved in. The new Prescription plan has been overwhelming successful. However, this will be my last response to any of your stuff. I will give you one thing - you have to be one of the best 'put on artists' in the world. The problem is that a 'put on artist' can sometimes escape the bounds of reality. Good luck finding your way back but I bet the trail has grown over too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM Ted says that 99 is the new 100 so here's 499 !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM OOOPS Should have been 599 So heres 600 just for the Hell of it |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Jul 06 - 08:44 PM Yo, Leadfingers.... You be da man... And you can be in my band at the Getaway fir postin' the 600th post to this thread... Yo, GUEST, LIke how would we know if you are actually outta here??? But, none the less, don't let the door hit ya' on the way out... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:50 PM Ah yes, typical bobert response when he has been nailed. (again) Did not say I was "outta here", merely implied that figuratively speaking, you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:35 PM The only folks nailed, GUEST, are you and yer Bushite plants here in Mudville... But maybe, just maybe, you'd like to lucidate on just how I'm the one who has been nailed here??? Yeah, that oughtta be very entertainin', fir sure... Oh yeah, Bushites never admit they screwed up... They always blame their failures on others.... Normal... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM Bushites, Bushites, Bushites. Bobert is a broken record. Got him self in a corner and that's all he has as a defense. You still do not understand, and my never understand, that everybody that disagrees with you is not a Bush supporter, and enemy or a stupid idiot. They just dissagree with your hateful attempt of trying to blame everything on one man. Some things are his fault and othere are partially his fault and others are not his fault. How would anything have turned out different if GWB had not been elected in 2002? Where were we headed back then? in a recession, gas prices going up, terrorists planning attacks in the US. It doesn't sound like a rosy picture. Would Gore have done any better? I think he and Kerry would have stumbled down the same path. Would either of them have magically evacuated everybody from NO? Would they have somehow made the levys hold? The big blow out was because of peat and sand under the steel. The steel did not go deep enough. A billion $ spent on making it higher would not have kept it from failing. You just have an enormus chip on your shoulder. Rather than address individual issues you just yell Bushite, not in the real world etc. while somebody posts something like "this is 600" and he is #1 in your book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM First of all GUEST, I thought you said you were going away??? (But, Bobert, maybe this GUEST isn't the same GUEST who siad they were going away...) Nah, it's the same GUEST... But, really, GUEST, you seem to think that I'm the one in the corner??? Very curious perception as you and the rest of the Bush apologists to date haven't mounted any argument that counters the original positions I laid out 604 posts ago??? Yes, very curious... Maybe you'd like to explain again exactly what corner you and yer pals think you've painted me into??? (Well, Bobert, FEMA was reorganized when the DHS was established...) So??? Where did the resources go that used to be there for such situations??? Did they just go poof into thin air, 'er what??? Did the Democrats steal them??? Did a bad man sneak in at night and make off with them??? No, perhaps the green men came down in a space ship, made themselves invisable and made off with the dough??? This has always been about funding, GUEST and with the rubber stamp Republican Congress Bush has always gotten what he asked for and if yer aware of how things work, it is the executive branch that puts together the budget for Congress to approve... Just how many times has Congress bucked Bush on budgetary matters, GUEST??? No, it's you who isn't living in the real world... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:26 PM "This has always been about funding, GUEST" So explain how more funding would have prevented the disaster? If the levy was 75 feet high would that have kept it from blowing out underneath? How much money would have made the local government evacuate like they should have? "FEMA was reorganized when the DHS was established" Who caused this to happen?? Who bitched and moaned untill it happened? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:43 PM The Bush administration cut funds for FEMA, slashed the money for the levees system at only 20% of what the Army Cerps of Engineers said was needed just to maintain the system... That 'bout sums it up... Oh yeah, before you go on about how Bush increased the funding for FEMA to $6.6B, bottom line, the dough got siphened off for DHS and the Iraq War... As for evacultion, GUEST, this was the hand that was delt Bush after 9/11... Instead of cutting brush back in Texas or taking more time away from the White House in the history of the presidency going back well over 200 years, he ***should*** have had his nose to the grinsdstone... That's what great, or even good, leaders do... But no, Bush went ahead partying and cutting brush hoping that nuthin' would happen to expose his weeknesses... Then Katrina!!! Hey, GUEST, you seem to be a fairly intellegent feller 'er felleress, so let me ask you a simple question... Had the terrorists hit New Orleans with a bomb that blew up the the Lake Pocigtraine dam, or some other similar terrorist event in New Orleans, do you really think that Bush had the safety of the American people covered??? Well, heck no he didn't because, as the CEO of the US he has put politics and vactioning ahead of anything else.. Might of fact, other than near bankrupting the country with his ill thought out tax cuts to his rich friends, the man ain't done jack... Katrina has shown this so vividly... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4192-2004Jun24.html Moore often resorts to speculative exaggeration that is either unfair or on point, again depending on your point of view. Early in the film he informs the audience that the president spent 42 percent of his tenure before 9/11 on vacation. This sets up a later image of a blank-looking Bush, just told that a second plane hit the New York towers, and Moore's rhetorical question: "Was he thinking he should have come to work more often?" http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/2004/06/fahrenheit-fact-no-6-moore-distorts.html how the "vacation days" were calculated: It's obvious that these "vacation days" include weekends. (You can do the math: 250/x=42/100; x=595 days=1.63 years). Okay, 42% is a lot of vacation, but weekends account for 29% of our time. I'm sure that a lot of this "vacation" time is just Bush going to Camp David for the weekend. Can we really fault the President for going to Camp David on weekends? If you take out weekends, you get 42%-29%, or 13% of the time that Bush was on vacation. Okay, this is still a lot, although 13% looks a lot better than 42%. Over a year, 13% is about 6.76 weeks of the year--which is still much more than most of us. But we know that Bush's vacations are generally working vacations. For example, he has hosted visits from leaders like Putin, Fox, and many others there. This hardly seems like a real vacation. As Hitchens points out today, there are a lot of problems with Fahrenheit 9/11. It's pretty clear that Moore's "vacation time" allegation is one of them. http://www.campusreportonline.net/main/printer_friendly.php?id=213 Moore blames the September 11th attacks on Bush by charging that in the wake of solid intelligence about terrorist plots the President just went fishing. Moore would have us believe that Bush vacationed more than he worked as the film claims that 42% of Bush's first 8 months as President were spent on vacation. What Moore fails to indicate is that the 42% figure, taken from a Washington Post story, includes: weekends, travel time, time at Camp David (a fully equipped Presidential headquarters), and time spent at his ranch where he planned a summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin and also met with Mexican President Vicente Fox. The 42% figure used in Moore's film was taken out of context; it was not vacation time but time spent out of the White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:38 AM http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5403958 If you read "The Washington Post" article, they said he spent 42 percent of his time away from the White House. They included in that 38 days that the president spent at Camp David, where, among other things, he met with Tony Blair and President Putin. In fact, in one frame of the movie where Moore shows him "relaxing" at Camp David, if you look closely, you see Tony Blair next to him. So this was not time spent on vacation, which is the words that Moore uses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:24 AM Brown blamed the poor federal response to Katrina partly on the absorption of FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security, which was focused on preventing terrorist attacks and neglected the threat of natural disasters. He urged that it be set up as a separate agency once again. He said that if a terrorist bomb had breached one of the levees in New Orleans, the department would have instantly mobilized. But because the threat was from a natural disaster, the response from senior officials was less urgent. (CBS/AP) President Bush on Sunday [August 28th] urged people living in the path of Hurricane Katrina to take the storm extremely seriously and to move to safer ground. "We cannot stress enough the danger this hurricane poses to Gulf Coast communities," said the president. "We will do everything in our power to help the people and the communities affected by this storm," President Bush said as Katrina bore down on a stretch of coastline that includes New Orleans, a city sitting below sea level with 485,000 inhabitants. "I urge all citizens to put their own safety and the safety of their families first by moving to safe ground." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:28 AM Why Bush and senior administration officials apparently believed that New Orleans had been spared the worst effects of the hurricane for hours after the city was already flooded: THE NEW YORK TIMES Tuesday, August 30, 2005 Katrina Misses New Orleans, Heavily Damages Mississippi By Joseph B. Treaster and Kate Zernike Hurricane Katrina pounded the Gulf Coast with devastating force at daybreak Monday, sparing New Orleans the catastrophic hit that had been feared but inundating parts of the city and heaping damage on neighboring Mississippi where it tossed boats, ripped away scores of roof tops and left many of the major coastal roadways impassable. Packing 145-mph winds as it made landfall, Katrina left more than a million people in three states without power and submerged highways even hundreds of miles from the center of the storm. Officials reported at least 35 deaths, with 30 deaths alone in Harrison County, Miss., which includes Gulfport and Biloxi. Emergency workers feared they would find more dead among people believed to be stranded under water and collapsed buildings. While Katrina proved to be less fearsome than had been predicted, it was still potent enough to rank as one of the most punishing hurricanes ever to hit the United States. Insurance experts said that damage could exceed $9 billion, which would make it one of the costliest storms on record. In New Orleans, most of the levees held but the storm breached one and flood waters rose to rooftops in one neighborhood. Katrina's howling winds stripped 15-foot sections off the roof of the Superdome, where as many as 10,000 evacuees were sheltered. Some of the worst damage reports came from east of the historic city of New Orleans with an estimated 40,000 homes reported flooded in St. Bernard Parish. In Gulfport, Mississippi, the storm left three of five hospitals without working emergency rooms, beachfront homes wrecked and major stretches of Mississippi's coastal highway flooded and unpassable. "It came on Mississippi like a ton of bricks," the state's governor, Haley Barbour, told a midday news conference. "It's a terrible storm." President Bush promised extensive assistance for hurricane victims and the Federal Emergency Management Agency was expected to be working in the area for months, assessing damage to properties and allocating ultimately what will likely be billions of dollars in aide to homeowners and businesses. In Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi, the governors declared search and rescue their top priority, but said that high waters and strong winds were keeping them from that task, particularly in the hardest hit areas. The governors sent out police and National Guard after reports of looting, and officials in some parts of Louisiana said they would impose a curfew. Katrina was downgraded from Category 5 — the worst possible storm — to Category 4 as it hit land in eastern Louisiana just after 6 a.m., and in New Orleans, officials said the storm's slight shift to the east had spared them somewhat. The city is below sea level, and there had been predictions that the historic French Quarter would be under 18 or 20 feet of water. Still, no one was finding much comfort here, with 100 mph winds and water surges of 15 feet. Officials said early in the day that more than 20 buildings had been toppled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM "blew up the the Lake Pontchartrain dam" Where is that? There is a spillway from the Mississippi river into the western end of the lake which is a tidal estuary that connects to the ocean via straits, canals and other lakes. When the water level in the Gulf rises it flows into the lake. Flood gates to prevent the Gulf from flooding the lake and NO were proposed and money appropriated to build them but "activists" sued opposed them and the project which would have prevented the disaster eventually died. You can find some non political scientific information here: http://www.popsci.com/popsci/printerfriendly/science/185c893302839010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 08 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Pontchartrain Raising and reinforcing the levees to resist a Category 5 hurricane might take 25 years to complete. Some estimates place the cost at $25 billion. A hurricane in September, 1947 flooded the city, most of which is below sea level (and sinking). After the storm, hurricane-protection levees were built along Lake Pontchartrain's south shore to protect the city. When a storm surge of 10 feet (3 meters) from Hurricane Betsy left much of the city under water in 1965, the levees encircling the city and outlying parishes were raised to heights of 14 to 23 feet (4-7 meters). Due to cost concerns, the levees were built to protect against only a Category 3 hurricane. Experts using computer modeling at Louisiana State University subsequent to Hurricane Katrina have concluded that the levees were never topped but rather faulty design, inadequation construction, or some combination of the two were responsible for the flooding of most of New Orleans. Funding Congress failed to fully fund an upgrade requested during the 1990s by the Army Corps of Engineers, and funding was cut in 2003-04 despite a 2001 study by the Federal Emergency Management Agency warning that a hurricane in New Orleans was one of the country's 3 most likely disasters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Woody Date: 08 Jul 06 - 07:04 PM http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/18295762-44D7-4CA0-A409-5A94B240DC68.htm Saturday 03 September 2005, 6:27 Makka Time, 3:27 GMT US Senator David Vitter has said the toll from Hurricane Katrina could top 10,000 in Louisiana alone. The announcement came on a day US troops poured into the Louisiana city of New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders to scare off looting gangs and enable rescuers to help thousands of people stranded by Hurricane Katrina. Faced with a growing threat of anarchy after a natural disaster that may have killed thousands of people, the US military on Friday rushed in National Guard reinforcements. Armed looters have had the run of this famed city of jazz musicians and French Quarter bars since Katrina pounded the US Gulf Coast on Monday, but they were warned not to push their luck. "These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will." The post-Hurricane Katrina petroleum-supply outlook improved somewhat on Friday as US and European governments agreed to release more than 60 million barrels of oil and refined products from their emergency reserves. The governments of 26 countries agreed to release the equivalent of two million barrels of oil per day from strategic reserves to cope with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the Paris-based International Energy Agency said. Most residents are desperate for an end to the violence and a crackdown on looters was ordered when it became clear the looting and gunfire were hurting relief efforts. Bodies rotted away on busy streets, armed men opened fire on troops and rescue workers, and seriously ill people braved the floodwaters in wheelchairs to search for help. Officials said the toll was certainly in the hundreds and probably in the thousands, but details remained sketchy. "Call it biblical. Call it apocalyptic. Whatever you want to call it, take your pick," said 46-year-old Robert Lewis. He was rescued as floodwaters invaded his home and endured two days of diabolical conditions at a shelter before finally being evacuated to Houston. "There were bodies floating past my front door. I've never seen anything like that," he said, near tears from apparent emotional exhaustion. Pentagon officials said an additional 4200 National Guard troops would be deployed over three days and that 3000 regular army soldiers may also be sent in to tackle the armed gangs that have looted stores across New Orleans. "We will not tolerate lawlessness, or violence, or interference with the evacuation," Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff said. The reinforcements mean nearly 50,000 part-time National Guard and active-duty military personnel are being used in the biggest domestic relief and security effort in US history. But the deployment has so far failed to guarantee an effective rescue plan and many of Katrina's victims are increasingly frustrated at being left to fend for themselves. Under pressure from some Democrats for allegedly acting too slowly and for cutting federal funding for improvements to New Orleans' levees, US President George Bush was to visit the city on Friday. The US Senate approved his request for $10.5 billion in emergency disaster relief late on Thursday, with billions more in aid seen passing Congress in coming weeks. The help cannot come quick enough in New Orleans, known to those who love it as the Big Easy. Flooded city hospitals had no electricity and critically ill patients were dying because they no longer had access to oxygen, insulin or other medicines. Doctors worked around the clock to keep patients alive and evacuate them but logistical arrangements were chaotic and made worse by the violence. At one hospital, evacuation was called off when an armed man opened fire on doctors and soldiers. Shelters set up to care for thousands of evacuees in New Orleans were still without food and water early on Friday and families slept near corpses and piles of human waste. Lake Pontchartrain's muddy floodwaters still own New Orleans four days after bursting through the levees that once protected it, and now they are toxic with fuel, battery acid, gas, garbage and raw sewage. Health experts warn outbreaks of disease could wreak havoc in the days and weeks ahead. The misery belied New Orleans' romantic and carefree image, and instead left it looking more like a Third World trouble spot in the midst of a major refugee crisis. Thousands of people were finally evacuated from the city on Thursday night and taken to the Astrodome stadium in Houston, about 563km west, but it quickly filled up and police turned away busloads of the evacuees to other shelters. Katrina forced hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and shut refineries along the Gulf Coast shut, sending petrol prices at the pump soaring to new records of well over $3 a gallon in most parts of the country. Bush urged Americans to conserve petrol to help overcome the crisis. "Don't buy gas if you don't need it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:45 PM Why does the state that bobert lives in not have institutions for the mentally unfit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:33 PM It does, GUEST... I my first life as a scial worker I had many occasions to pay them a visit in the gov'mint car and collect another batch of folks purdy much like you to take back to ther comunity and try once again to get 'um to do and play nice... So, with thisbarage of GUEST postings since I last checked in here is there any point out of these obvious cut 'n pastes that is supposed to be a rebuttal??? Back to Debating 101 for all of you's... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:50 PM Still looking for Bobert's Lake Pontchartrain dam. Still wondering how a 25 year job could have been completed in time to save NO even if it was started the day GWB took office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM Danged, GUEST, ain't you figured out nuthin' about me yet??? I do throw out a little comic relief now and then just to ligthen stuff up... Everyone who has been paying attention know fully well that there's no dam.... I mean, we were all bimbarded with overhaeds of the area... You need to lighten up and stick with the real stuff and leave my obvious *finnin'* alone... And you know what the real issues are... Bottom line, you say with 20/20 hindsight that it could take 25 years to make NO safer but bottom line, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight yer guy only funded the maintainence of the levee sytem at 17% of what was the bare minumum according to the percieved needs at the time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:06 AM Maybe he thought the chances of a another terrorist attack was greater than the chances of an unpresedented Cat 5 hitting just the way it did so he decided to spend more money on anti terrorism. The war is iraq is a part of the antiterrorism effort. What would you have thought the odds were were? What decision would you have made not being able to see the future? Funding was cut or at least not increased before GWB was in power. I suppose this is his fault too. Your history conveniently begins on Jan 1 2001 which debilitates your ability to see things the way they are. As you would say "very obsessedwith details and missing the big piccure" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM Oh, so you say that Bush was spending the money on first responders and things that would be required to evacuate an area after terrorists attack??? Is that yer final answer, GUEST??? Come on, lets get real here... Bush's own National Response Plan was aimed a both natural and terrorist disasters... Seems the real disaster was that Bush was too busy carnking up the funding his new shiney war in Iraq to be bothered with covering up the rear... And Katrina out flanked him... 17% of the what was requested for maintinance of the levee system by the Corps of Engineers is all that Bush coughed up the year before Katrina... Go back and check Bill Clinton's record on funding FEMA, GUEST, since it seems that you now are trying to play the, "Awwww shucks, well Clinton did some dumb stuff, too" defense... Well, sure Clinton did some dumb stuff... I have never said I liked Slick Willie one bit... I didn't vote for him and I'd never vote for his war-mongin' old lady... But, Slick Wille's record of funding the Army Corp of Engineers sho nuff was as responsible as Bush's has been in the irresponsible department... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM What are the amounts Bobert? When you are caught with your ignorance showing you try to claim it was humor. http://volokh.com/posts/1125804593.shtml To refer to the funding decisions as "cuts" is slightly misleading. If the Army Corps of Engineers asked for additional funding and got some, but not all, of the increase they asked for, this is not a cut. And indeed, this would seem to be the situation. Overall funding for the Corps has increased every year under the Bushadministration by roughly $200 million per year; their budget rose from $4.1 billion in 2000 to $5.1 billion in 2005. Funding for flood control in the Mississippi and coastal regions (not counting emergency funding) has remained roughly constant at around $320 million per year. The Corps no doubt would prefer a budget twice this size (andsuch might be a good idea), but the fact that they have not received one does not mean that their budget has been "cut". The proper word would be "increased". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:17 AM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462_pf.html In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large. Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon. For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways such as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that is less than forecast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:22 AM http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/berlau200509080824.asp Activists strike again: The national Sierra Club was one of several environmental groups who sued the Army Corps of Engineers to stop a 1996 plan to raise and fortify Mississippi River levees. The Army Corps was planning to upgrade 303 miles of levees along the river in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. This was needed, a Corps spokesman told the Baton Rouge, La., newspaper The Advocate, because "a failure could wreak catastrophic consequences on Louisiana and Mississippi which the states would be decades in overcoming, if they overcame them at all." But a suit filed by environmental groups at the U.S. District Court in New Orleans claimed the Corps had not looked at "the impact on bottomland hardwood wetlands." The lawsuit stated, "Bottomland hardwood forests must be protected and restored if the Louisiana black bear is to survive as a species, and if we are to ensure continued support for source population of all birds breeding in the lower Mississippi River valley." In addition to the Sierra Club, other parties to the suit were the group American Rivers, the Mississippi River Basin Alliance, and the Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi Wildlife Federations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462_pf.html But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were designed to protect against a Category 3 storm, and the levees that failed were already completed projects. Strock has also said that the marsh-restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:46 PM From an article written by Michael Schere entitled "Anatomy of an unnatural disaster" who was writting after an extensive interview of Eric Tolbert, a former top disaster official in the Bush administration: "FEMA is not the only agency that found itself bled of required funding by White House decisions after the terrorist attacks off Swept. 11. Shortly after the atatcks, the Army Corps of Engineeers found itself facing deep cuts in funding for the largest flood control and drainage program in the New Orleans area. In the first full budget year after the attacks, the Bush administartion funded the Southeast Lousiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA, at only 20 percemt of the Corps' request of $100 million. IN fiscal year 2004, the White House funding came in at 17 percent of the request." Wow, GUEST... Tthis is the way a former top Bush disaster guy sees it??? Danged... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM Yes that is the way I see it too but are saying that more funding would have prevented the disaster? Here is what would have prevented the disaster: Building the levees to with stand a cat 5 starting about 20 years earlier and/or the flood gates that were appropriated. Evacuating NO before the storm hit. Now it seems to me that you are claiming GWB should have prevented the disaster but he did not because he did not value the lives and property in NO as much as he does in say New York. There was two whole days before the storm hit. Everybody knew it was going to hit and how bad it would be during that time. Bush warned people and told them to leave. What did the local authorities do during those two precious days? They flip flopped around and caused those deaths. How would it have turned out if there were no war in Iraq? How would it have turned out if FEMA were never fooled with? Would the levees have been built up to withstand the storm? Would the locals have evacuated NO? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM bobert, you poor ignorant shit - FEMA means 'Federal Emergency Management Agency' - It does nothing UNTIL there is an emergency - like after the Hurricane, earthquake, flood happens. What is so difficult about 'managing an emergency'? It has to happen first! There is nothing to do before hand and I still think you are a 'puton artist'. But now you have taken on the appearance of a pathetic individual, lost in your own cloud of moldy stuff from the stash box. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM Gettin' a little testy, ain't we, GUEST??? Why you gotta be that way, anyway??? Yer just'a poor looser, I reckon... So you say that FEMA don't do "nuthing UNTIL there is an emergency"... Like maybe you'd like to revisit the time line, pal... According to Congressionl hearing testimony, FEMA chief was in touch with the White House two full days before Katrina hit telling tham from everything he knew that Katrina was going to be the big one... This should have at least gotten someone's attention... It'd be like me calling you up, GUEST, and telling you I was gonna come over to yer house with an ugly stick... If you knew that I knew where you were living I doubt very seriously that you'd just go on watchin' the Price-Is-Right reruns without any concern... I mean, lets get real here... You accuse me of not dealing with reality??? What a joke... You say that the federal governemnt, being warned that a major hurrican was going to kit a majot population center in 48 hours had no responsibility to do anything??? Is that now yer position??? Talk about ignorance, pal... If I ever want to know what you look like all I'll have to do is look up "ignorance" in Webster's and yer piccure oughtta be right there with a big red bow 'round it... But while we're on the topic of ignmorance and time lines how 'bout telling the Peanut Gallery when the orders were given by Michale Chertoff to FEMA, and other agencies, to mobilize... Yeah, tell 'um that... And here's the real challenge fir ya... Se if can answer that question without calling me an ignorant "sh*t" or blaming Bill Clinton... I will say one thing: you are certainly a piece of work, GUEST... BTW, do you really believe any of this stuff you write since it seems to have no factual basis and is so far removed from reality that it's borderline comical... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM Simply tell me what the Feds were to do 2 days before? The head of the Hurricane center directly contacted the State and Local officials, "the first responders", and the latter two sat on their hands. FEMA = 'emergency management', can't manage until the emergency takes place. i.e., Hurricane, flood, earthquake. Why about this is not understandable? Or, do you want an agency such as FEMA to roll everything into the area to be devastated, prior to the strike, so they also can be blown away? You are correct about one thing - I am "a piece of work", one that knows what he is talking about. No more slams from either side, okay? Simply and briefly respond to my inquiries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:24 AM No, GUEST, you tell me what the feds were supposed to do...Hey, the National Response Plan was wriiten and to be implimented by yer guys... (Not a slam...) BTW, you still haven't gotten 'round to the "time Line" question of when Chertoff ordered mobilization... (Not a slam...) Gotta go... Later... (Not a slam...) Bobert (Not a slam...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:36 AM bobert - no, you tell me what the Feds didn't do as you are the person saying they were wrong, not me. Again, stop trying to turn this around when you can't respond. (not a slam, just a fact) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM Can you answer any of these easy questions? If Bush had provided more funding would it have prevented the disaster? If there was no war in Iraq, would the disaster have been prevented? Would the disaster have been prevented if FEMA was never fooled with? Would building the levees to with stand a cat 5 starting about 20 years earlier and/or the flood gates that were appropriated have prevented the disaster? Would the evacuation of NO before the storm hit have prevented the disaster? In short, what would have prevented this disaster? Bobert is not concerned about the disaster itself, what caused it, how it could have been prevented and how to prevent the next one. He is only concerned with making political hay out of it to discredit GWB. Shure FEMA is screwed up. Shure FEMA did not respond AFTER the disaster as well as they would have if it was left alone. Sure GWB appointed incompetent people. Chertof still looks incompetent to me. This does not mean that GWB is responsible for the disaster but only for some problems in the aftermath of the disaster. It seems to me with bullets flying, inaccurate TV coverage, inaccurate newspaper coverage and looting and other criminal activities going on that a "fog of war" descended on the rescue effort. If the city had been evacuated the rescue effort would have been immensely reduced. The local authorities could have prevented most of the suffering and loss of life if they had evacuated during the two days before Katrina hit. GWB warned them of the magnitude of the storm and told people to move to to safer ground. Should he have said "do not listen to your local authorities and get out"? Would that have helped the people that had no way to get out? Should GWB have sent the military to over ride the local authorities and organize an evacuation? Invoked military law? The loss of property could not have been prevented because the levees were not up to the task. It would have taken an effort that began 20 years or more before the disaster to prevent the flooding. Even if the levees were built higher, the 17th street canal levee would have failed anyway because the steel did not go deep enough into the peat and sand below. Flood gates might have prevented the flooding. So Bobert, are you about disaster prevention or you about Monday morning quarterbacking, political finger pointing and name calling? And because the place still in in no shape to withstand a similar storm, you are preparing to use any future disasters as a weapon rather that trying to come up with something constructive? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM Looks like Katrinagate is a flop just like Medigate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:42 PM Question #1... No, Bush could not have prevented the disaster... That is rather obvious... Question #2... Yes, in taking money from where ever he could find it to fund the War in Iarq, icluding funds that Congress had earmarked for FEMA, Bush, in essence, was not covering up the rear... Question #3... See answer to question #1... The disaster was going to be a disaster irrwegardless of the Bush administartion's inablity to respond... Question #4... Most likely... I think most engineers would agree with this assesssment... But keep in mind that the SELA had not seen this kind of underfundining for maintenance of the existing levees... Bill Clinton funded the maintenance at close to 100% of the Army Corps of Engineers request... Bush's funding was between 17% and 20% of requested funds... Now, here's where we part ways, GUEST... Had Bush had more monet available for domestic spending programs there is a chance, perhaps even a good chance that if the Army Corps of Engineer had recieve the levels of funding that it had requested under Clinton that there is, at least a chance, that the leeves wouldn't have been breeched... If you, GUEST, are an engineer, as the folks who are hired by the Army Corps of Engineers are, may they need you to come in and tell them why the $100M they requested in 2003 was wrong and where they had misplaced the decimel point... All I know is that these folks, who are slide rule kinda folks requested $100M to maintian the system and Buish sent um' $17M to $20M??? You can do the math... Qusetion #5... No, again, GUEST, the disater was Hurricne Katrina... You won't find me saying that Bush 'caused the hurricne... But the reponse on the Bush administration showed that while Bush was long on talk (i.e. "It's my job to protect the American people..") when the chips were down we found that the Bush administration hadn't done the heavy lifting in setting policies, procedures and funding in place to protect the American people from either a natural or terrorist driven disaster... Yeah, Katrina exposed the Bush administration as one long on talk but short on walk... Question #6... Again, nuthin' would have prevented Katrina from coming a shore but a fully funded FEMA, be a cabinet level department ot not, would have greatly cut the human loses if for no other reason than a fully funded FEMA, with an operational National Reponse Plan would have mobilized 3 days earlier than it did and that would have made a bif difference in the evacuation... Remeber, the Natioal Response Plan, which incidently failed under Katrina, called for mobilization from either natural ot terrorist situations... Now as to GUEST's observations about me as person... Hey, when the chips are down and it is Monday morning quarterbacking it's comes down to folks payin' attention to detail... And it comes down to doing what you say... And it come down to the heavy lifting that is required to be successfull... With that said, yes, as someone who has has always had by back and flanks covered, I know what it takes to be successfull... I have been successfull in life for all the rerasons that George Bush has been a failure... Had I been in his position on 9/11 I would have take a very different path... When Bush turned a massive police axction ito some kind of absatract war against abstract enemeies he set the United States on a course for failure... Since then he has taken gobs of money that could have been used to help Americans to fight these rediculously unwinnable wars and funded these expensive and very problematic occupations... Why did he do these things??? Well, not becuase he thought it was the right thing to do but because his handlers felt that there was nuthin' better than as "hot war" to keep his part ion power so it could pillage and rape the US treasury and American workers... This has long been the goal of the Republican Party and Bush doesn't get the glory of winning the battle... Certainlu his daddy and Reagan got the ball well down field and with the help of folks who, God bless 'um, think that gay marriage, abortion and flag burning are the three most important issues on the planet, have used these hot wars and hot button social issues to tay in power whilst fleecing the middle class and chipping away at the New Deal... Yeah, had I'd been running the business---which it is-- I would have done an infinately better job because, first of all, screw politics when it comes to getting things done right... Yeah sure, it's fun to mess with the Bushites (not a slam...) here in Mudville but I have a history of working with folks who might fall into that category... I don't see "Bushite" in y real world... I have always beena community activist and you dance with the folks who come to the dance... Hey, I'm not a GUEST... I'm transparent and my work over the last coup,e of decades in Leesburg, Va. ain't no secret and it's forced my to work with Bushites and not make nuthin' of it... But, yeah, I wouldn't have made 9/11 a politcal thing to us for power to steal back promises made by empolyers or promises made by the New Deal... I would have rolled up my sleeve and doen the heavy lifting... That would have meant funding the home stuff that needed to be funded and maybe not gotten re-elected but going out knowin' that I had done the right thing... Bush didn't do that... He stole from our domestic programs, left our country more vulnerable than before 9/11 and Katrine is "Exhibit A"... No Monday morin' quarterback, here, GUEST... I have a transparent history of walkin' the walk... Just heard today from someone that the current mayor of Leesburg, Kristine Umstead said some very flattering things in a Town Council sessionc about my service to the Leesburg community while I was there... Bush blew it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM bobert, you is a wonderful person - I know - 'cause you tell me so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:12 PM Bite me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 06 - 09:52 AM Bobert you need to run for some sort of office so you can make a difference in our government the right way. It looks like you have the stuff. There are too many rabble rousers and not enough real people willing to step up to the plate and enter government. Hell if you get elected, make it to Washington and start making sense, I might even vote for you. I do not Monday morning quarterback. I sort through the facts and form an opinion, When I see others trying to filter out some facts in order to get to the conclusion they want and trying to foist that opinion on others as "I see things that normal people do not", I feel compelled to say so. I don't expect you to change your opinion, just to say that the Katrina disaster was not GWB's fault but partially his fault. And that only problems with the aftermath, due to the failure of others, were his fault First of all to name it Katrinagate is an attempt to make it look like it was planed out like the Watergate break ins. That in itself is a distortion. I don't see how any amount of money given to Army Core of Engineers could have made the levees Katrina proof due to the time frame and things that were not known like steel sheeting not going deep enough. The flood gates might have saved the destruction and loss of life and the money was there. However people that knew better blocked their construction for ecological reasons. I wonder if the ecology suffered worse because they were not built? The war did have a deleterious effect because the local authorities did not do their job and evacuate. If they had done their job the rescue would have been insignificant. So we can't go to war because a local government might screw up and need to be bailed out? Suppose North Korea invaded South Korea. Should we have to check up on the competence and preparedness of every state and city in the US before we send troops? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM Nah, GUEST, on runninh' for office... I've been approcahed a couple times but I'm way tyoo busy for that... My business partner has been on town council for the last 4 years and has just finished her term the end of last month and it was like getting released from prison... I like my involvement with the local Main Street program just fine... Now, back to why the "gate' after Katrina... When 9/11 hit the Bush adminstration did majoe reshuffling of policies and departments... Yes, part of the reshuffling came as a result of the the Dem proposal for the DHS but the reshuffling of funding, orgainization and policy was done primarily within the Bush adminsitration... If you'll recall, right after 9/11 there was a lot of talk about the need to shore up first ressponders for dealing with disasters... The National Response Plan was written by the Bush administartion, not Congress and it dealt with scenerios, be them created by bad men or nature, where an area was so overwhelmed by a disaster that the federal governemnt would mobilize... Then we stared hearing from mayors and governors that the Bush adminstartion was lolli-gaggin' on funding the verioua first response organizations... Might of fact, the National Coucil of Governors complained of the lasck of adequate funding for these programs and departments... It's easy to say that the state and local governements should have plans and resources to deal with their own problems but reality is, they can't... The federal governemnt, under Bush, has allready shifted more finacial burden on the states over the last 6 years allready and there is a breaking point for those governemnts... That's why there was a National Response Plan to begin with...But if there aren't the federal dollars being invested to impliment such a plan then the plan becomes an accident waiting to happen... ...and thus: Katrinagate... The Bush adnministration was not properly funding it's own plan... As for whether or not a fully funded Army Corp's of Engineers maintenance program would have lessened the damage, there really isn't any wholesale agreement among engineers. An engineer, Henter Johnston, of Johston and Associates, for example says "It the Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, there is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in much better position to remove the water on the streets once the pump satrts working." But we do know that Bush choze to fund these maintenance programs at 20% and less... ... which, as America's CEO, ha has the constitutiona right to do... Where the gate comes in is that Bush knew that he was very, very thin on not only funding the componets necessary to impliment the NRP but also on maintaining the levees, all the while going around the country boasting about it being his "job to protect the American people..." Had he funded them properly then he could have made this claim... ...but he didn't... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:17 PM Bobert: Was the Katrina disaster planed out? How often does any branch of government or state or city get everything they ask for? Can you give me an example? I remember making things for government agencies just to use up the money they had not spent yet, leftover money, so they could ask for more for the next year. The SELA program began in 1996 and with 32 projects completed to date the Program is projected for completion by the year-end of 2007. 2007 is a little late for Katrina. What "plans and resources" did the local government lack except grey matter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM Well, yeah, GUEST, it is common for governmental agencies to take a budget and add an extra 1O to 15 percent to it knowin' that it's gonna be cut by, ahhhh, 10 or 15 percent... This is almost S.O.P. in not only government but in the private sector, as well... But an 83% cut??? I mean, let's get real here... You can't possibly believe that the Corps only needed $17M to maintain the levee and kew that they would have to request $100M to get the $17M??? Was the disaster planned out??? LOL... No, Bush may have usurped a lot of power since 9/11 but makin' hurricans ain't in the scope of what he can or cannot do... But the response to the disaster did bring one thing into focus: Bush has been spending way too much time and tax payers money conducting his wars of choice and not paying enough attention to the nuts and bolts of really protecting the American people... And, not to get too far off course here, but this isn't entirely Bush's fault in that our political system is so driven by money and our leaders are too busy chasin' bucks to stay in power than doing a good job once there... Yeah, since 2000 it has gotten much worse... Bushm in order to maintain his power has had to raise one heck of a lot of money and has spent more time politicin' that any president in history... Yeah, lots of those trips where Bush apologists say Bush is on the job are nuthin' more than fund raising trips... But with that said, Bush is the CEO and he was AWOL (too busy playing politics and not enought playing manager...) when the heavy lifting was needed to get the National Reponse Plan funded and workable... Especially after 9/11... Do you realize there was supposed to be mock disaster run-through in Louisana well prior to Katrina but that the federal funds didn't come thru??? That's what I mean... The boy was just too focused on fund raising, keeping the American people entertained with a new and shiny war, politicing for the '04 election and not enough time at the office doing what he called the "hard work"... But in the '04 election we heard over and over the phrase "It's my job to protect the American people"... You know, almost as if he believed that he had done the heavy lifting to make that claim... But we now see that he hadn't done the "hard work"... This "protect the American people" was just another slick ad-man phrase that had come outta Karl Rove's office that had absolutley nuthin' to do with reality... And that is why this is a scandal... Yeah, Bush may escape the truth of Katrina for awhile but historian will get it right... There's just too much evidence to escape... And when they take on Katrina there won't be a revisionist alive with the capabilities to sugar-coat the major blunders by Bush and his inner circle in regards to the preparedness of the Bush administartion to protect the American people from a catastrophy, man made or not.... And to this very day the Bush administartion continues to sandbag and hope that Katrina will just fade away but it won't... And, BTW, GUEST, you still haven't gotten around to the time line question of when Chertoff ordered mobilization... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy uncloaking Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM You're the expert on when Chertoff did what. I think that when Bush was saying he is going to protect the American people, he was talking about terrorist attacks. We haven't had any more so he has done that so far. This hurricane jumped up and bit him in the ass while he was focusing on terrorism. Everything he does is political anyway. One party or the other is bitching no matter what he does. I am not in love with GWB. I don't like most of his policies. But I think Kerry would have been a worse disaster. The next crop of candidates looks just as bad. All they do is try to figure out which campaign promises will get them elected. But how can anybody get elected without party backing? I wish we could get rid of political parties completely so our they can make decisions based on what is best rather than what their party wants. It's like two rival gangs trying to dominate each other and the American people are in the crossfire. As long as you agree that not all of the blame falls on Bush, we are somewhat in agreement. Those locals down there fooled around when they could have been getting people out. Excuses like can't find a bus driver don't fly. In an emergency I or just about anybody can drive a bus. I drove a standard size school bus around once when I was a kid. I have talked to contractors who are hesitant to go there and do any work. The problem is who pays and when. The insurance companies are screwing around with folks. That said, they should have had flood insurance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM Familiarize yourself with the National Reponse Plan, Old Guy... So what if the terrorists had blown the hack outta New Orleans or poisined its water??? Bush wasn't prepared either way... And, BTW, how much money would it take for the closest city to you to be prepared for a massive disaster??? If yer in doubt call that city's mayor and then attend a couple budget hearings for a dose of reality... You are not living in the real world... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM If If If If. What if a flea farts in Patagonia and it creates a hurricane that wipes out your town? Are you ready with a plan? Ifs are not in the real world. A hurricane bearing down on the gulf coast is for real. Bush telling them to get out is real. The fact that they did not get out is real. "terrorists had blowing the heck outta New Orleans or poisined its water" is not for real. It is an if. There are an infinite number of ifs which the national response plan could not handle. What you need to come to grips with is what did happen. And why do I need to memorize the national response plan? I got my own plans. Get the hell out of town when a hurricane is approaching and help as many others as I can. You never know when a terrorist attack will happen and prevention is the best way to handle them. However the LIBs, Anarchists, Democrats and socialists are doing everything they can to keep the administration from finding and stopping terrorist cells. Mainly because they don't like GWB. They didn't want him to be elected but he got elected anyway. Now all they want to do is tear him down. Spending too much on this, not enough on that, he choked on something, he looks dumb. They are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats that didn't get a their way and now they are going to misbehave to get attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM Ahhhh, GUEST, you aren't living in the real world either... Tellin' folks to get out ain't a plan... You need a dose of reality, too... How 'bout attending the next budget hearing in yer town for a good dose of reality... You are so far removedd from the real world that yer comments, if they don't echo those of some many ohter completely ignorant people, would be laughable... Unfortuataely there are way too many folks in cyber world who never had to live in the real world... Like I said, go attend ther next budget hearing at the closest town or city to you and then come back with yer simplistic, bumper sticker arguments... (No slam, just fact...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM Evidently Tellin' folks to get out was the emergency plans in NO. Did they follow their own plans? You think they don't have to because the Federal government is there to take over their job when their incompetence shows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:34 AM LOL, Guest... Yer back to all these elaborate plans that cash strapped cities are supposed to somehow find that extra cash to have in place... Do you have any idea in dollar amounts what an evacutaion plan would require a major population center to come up with??? A plan would involve hundreds of contracts with various venders that the furnish all kinds of basic needs... It wiuld involve an entire deperatment with l;awyers, procurement specialists, clerical forks, etc... Now go tell yer mayor that you think he oer she should organize and fund such an effort and get ready to be laughed out of his or her office... Thus... the logic of a FEMA... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:58 AM Ain't nobody laughing but you Bobert. It shows you know very little except expertise in smear campaigns. How's this for cash strapped?: In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large. Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon. For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways such as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that is less than forecast. Now laugh that off and go jump back in your barrel like a rodeo clown. Here is a link to thier emergency plan page. http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:yVKnPGIo37UJ:www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx%3Fportal%3D46+new+orleans+evacuation+plans&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&lr=lang_en The New Orleans City Assisted Evacuation Plan Purpose The purpose of the City Assisted Evacuation Plan (CAEP) is to help citizens who want to evacuate during an emergency, but lack the capability to self-evacuate. The CAEP is not intended to replace the individual�s personal responsibility in preparing their own evacuation. It is meant to be an evacuation method of last resort and only for those citizens who have no other means or, have physical limitations that prohibit self evacuation. Synopsis The general concept of the CAEP is that the city utilizes its facilities, manpower and other resources to provide assistance to citizens who cannot self-evacuate during the declaration of an emergency. The City of New Orleans, Office of Homeland Security and Public Safety, will have the overall command and responsibility for execution of the CAEP. The plan is designed to get all citizens and visitors out of the city prior to the tropical storm winds of a hurricane or during any other emergency that requires total evacuation of the city. This includes citizens without transportation and persons in need of medical resources (NMR). The plan uses the Morial Convention Center (MCC), Union Passenger Terminal (UPT) and Louis Armstrong Airport (MSY) as debarkation points for an emergency evacuation. The plan requires evacuation by air, rail and ground transportation to be fully effective. The goal is to have the CAEP completed in a 36 hour time period beginning at the issuance of evacuation orders by the governor and the mayor. The first 12 hours of the period being preparatory to implant security at the processing and staging centers and to acquire transportation resources. The City will have the overall responsibility for getting the citizens from pre-identified pickup locations to the registration centers and debarkation points. The State, supported by external entities, will have the responsibility for moving the persons from the threat area and into shelters. When the threat has passed and re-entry is authorized, this process will be reversed. The CAEP is activated by notifying all the partner governmental and non-governmental entities that an evacuation has been ordered and the facilities, transportation and emergency response personnel should execute their component of the plan. The city will establish evacuee processing and staging centers at local hotels, the MCC and the UPT. The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, in conjunction with other State Departments (DOTD, DSS, DHH, LSP), will activate their plans developed to transport and shelter evacuees. This synopsis does not detail all aspects of the CAEP, but is meant to provide a quick overview of the general concept. The attached flow charts and the individual operations plans describe the movements at each facility. 2 Activation The CAEP is activated upon orders from the Mayor and in concurrence with the Governor following the declaration of an emergency. The Mayor�s declaration of anemergency must be followed by a specific order to the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness (OEP) to launch the CAEP. The Director of OEP also serves as the EOC Coordinator in the New Orleans Emergency Operations Center (EOC). It is assumed that in a potential hurricane event that the EOC will be activated well in advance of the actual declaration of an emergency as officials track the storm. The EOC Coordinator then directs the Operations Section Chief to initiate the CAEP by notifying the components of the EOC tasked with launching the plan. The Operations Section Chief, upon receiving the order to launch the CAEP, will use the components of the Operations Section and prepared check lists to ensure that all of the required internal and external entities necessary to execute the CAEP have been notified that the plan has been initiated: These organizations include the following:- Local Government Agencies New Orleans Office of Homeland Security and Public Safety New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness New Orleans Police Department (NOPD) New Orleans Fire Department (NOFD) New Orleans Mayor�s Office of Technology (MOT) New Orleans Emergency Medical Services (EMS) New Orleans Health Department (NOHD) New Orleans Council on Aging (NOCA) Other Orleans Parish Departments Jefferson Parish OEP Plaquemines Parish OEP St. Bernard Parish OEP Port Authority Harbor Police State Agencies Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (LOHSEP) Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (LOTD) Louisiana Department of Social Services (LDSS) Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals (LDHH) Louisiana National Guard (LNG) Louisiana State Police (LSP) Non Government Operated Entities AMTRAK Morial Convention Center (MCC) (owned by the State) Union Passenger Terminal (UPT) (owned by the City) Louis Armstrong Airport (MSY) Regional Transit Authority (RTA) Louisiana Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) American Red Cross (ARC) New Orleans Hotel and Lodging Association (NOHLA) Lakefront Airport (LA) Citizens Emergency Response Team (CERT) It is expected that the State agencies above will make the necessary notifications to the appropriate Federal agencies such as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Department of Transportation (DOT) and the Department of Defense (DOD). Components of the EOC tasked with making notifications that the CAEP has been launched will monitor the development of that particular component of the plan and keep the Operations Section Chief advised accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:47 PM Rodeo clown, GUEST??? Seems as if the truce on no slammin' has come to an abrupt end... But nevermind yer attempt to drive a stake thru my heart as a voice who doesn't buyninto yer reviasionist thinking in regards to yer hero's absolute and utter failures in dealing with Katrina... Yes, it's nice to say that towns and cities have "evacuation plans" but a plan without resources plus 89 cents will get you a 12 ounce cup of coffee at Pete's Quik-Stop... Heck, I operated a business for 20 years in a flood plain and know that "evacuation plans" are all over the place but... ... lets get real hear, GUEST... This is the real world an' not some rodeo clown world of yers... Look what happened after Katrina... The Red Croos almost went bust spendin' all it's reserves... The American people sent millions of bucks to try to help the evacuation and resettlement... And this with a "evaculation plan" in place??? Hey, GUEST, you seem to be a right interllegent feller 'er felleress... Had the Red Cross not stepped up, had communities like Baton Rouge and Houston not stepped up, had the American people not stepped up the so-called "evacuation plan, was nuthin' more than some college kids term paper... Let nme give you an example of how things work in the real world... Take Dulles Airport in NoVa. and just snow removal... Do you realize that Dulles has dozens of private contractors who leave snow removal equipement at Dulles all winter long??? Do you realize that Du7lles pays these private contractors even if not the first flake of snow falls??? This is waht ****real**** plans are about... Contracts, and lots of 'um, BTW... Now that is just snow removal at one airport... Take any large city and tell the mayor that he is going to have to have the contractors in place to evacuate and relocate it's citizens... Yeah, this is what I mean... We ain't talkin' about some college kids term paper here but real and *****funded***** plans... No city in America is in that position... New Orleans is the proof... Now back to the National Response Plan fir a minute... The folks who wrote it recognized exactly what I have been saying here and that is that some catastrohies are bigger than a local, or even a state governemnts, irregardless of how many unfunded plans they have in the filing cabinet, can deal with... So, yeah, you can continue to come up with yer "rodeo clown" insults against me but when this day is done, you and I know both know that was a bad move on yer part... (No slam...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:36 PM So a plan is not really a plan and no one can be blamed for not following their plan unless Bush is some what related to the plan. Then it becomes a **REAL** plan. All right now, you tell me how the Federal Government could have evacuated new Orleans. And Bush is not my hero any more than Nagin is youre hero. You know that buy you keep repeating it to be irritating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM No, GUEST, a plan becomes a plan when contracts for services are in place... Like it or not, that's reality, my friend... And Bush could have left the funding levels in place for FEMA rather than use FEMA as a slush fund for DHS and the Iraq occupation... That would have been a good start... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM And that would have evacuated New Orleans? That would have averted the disaster? Why don't you just admit that you are using a disater as a tool for your anti Bush campaign? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM So are you saying that there has never been any purpose for federal spending for responding to disasters, GUEST??? Sho nuff sounds as if you are... "Well, Heck, Ralph... They can't float outta that mess on a dollar bill..." Is that where you are coming from, GUEST??? Okay, lets say that instead of Katrina, a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans... Would you still advocate the use of an unfunded evacuation plan or would you, like with Katrina, just let the Red Cross and churches do the best that they could??? Maybe this is a larger question about what you expect for your federal tax dollars... I expect the feds to have a plan and funding inplace to deal with disasters... Apparently, we don't agree on that... As for Katrina being some kind of tool for bashing Bush let me remind you how this thread started... On another thread I challenged a Bush-supporter to pick any danged policy Bush policy that that GUEST chooze that he or she thought they could defend... Thie GUEST chooze Katrina... That's the way it went down, my friend... One of yer buddies chooze Katrina and as eye I have not read too much in the way of a health rebuttal to the points I made last October... And please don't confuse disasters with responses to disasters... Here, Bush get a break... He didn't 'cause Katrina... All ghe did was gut the funding for the one federal agency that had for many years had the resources and staff to coordinate disaster relief... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM IF a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans, an evacuation would have been unecessary. There would have been no one to evacuate. Prevention of e nuclear terrorist act is the way to avoid that disaster which GWB is concentrating on. Catch the bastards before they do it. But people bitch and complain about efforts to detect them. They want to be protected but how? Mental telethapy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: SINSULL Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM Question: Guest, are you saying that the disaster in New Orleans was handled properly and as efficiently as possible? If not, where were the errors made so that we can correct the problems in time for the next disaster. Observation: The Canadian government heard of the impending disaster and sent help In ADVANCE. They were the first to arrive and provide aid. Why? And why not local agencies? Last, Telling people to evacuate when they have NO means of accomplishing it is absurd. There will always be people who will insist on remaining; there always are. And sometimes they die. But there were those who would have left in a minute if they had the bus fare or a reliable car. Evacuation plans have to include firm contracts guaranteeing rides for anyone who needs them. School buses, Amtrack, planes, whatever. One story that came out of NO was of a young man who STOLE a school bus and saved a bunch of people. He was supposed to be arrested for the theft. Tons of ice circulating around the country, temporary housing rotting away out of state - these are unacceptable wastes of money and effort. For the record,this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president. BUT the National Guard would have been stronger were many of them not overseas. AND the National Guard is desperate for new recruits to handle local emergencies but can't get them because sensible most people don't want to be sent off to the Middle East to die in a car bomb. Bush's rush into war using outright lies is the cause of that current disaster in the making. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM Well, Sins, thanks for comin' into this twp person discussion/debate... As you can plainly see, GUEST is on the defensive using whatever he or she can grasp... When I mention the possibility of a nuclear device being used in N.O. GUEST makes the assumption that it it kills everyone in N.O. and then evades the question I asked.. Normal... This has been going on now for months... Then GUEST says we should play nice, whcih I have purdy much tried to do with the exception of calling folk knotheads now and then and occasionally getting a tad testy under the barrage of personal attacks but, hey, So I go laong with the "no slamin" and then GUEST says somethin' along the lines that I'm a rodeo clown and oughta get back in the barrel???? See, like go figure... Must be nice to bge GUEST and make up whatever you want, distort wahtever you want and... ...change the rules whenever you want... Hey, I've been here going on 10 months and over 600 posts and answered every single rebuttal that Bush apologists have thrown my way... Even the dumb questions that were asked just as diversioary debating tactics that if were used in a court of law the oppsoing lawyer would ask for "relevance"... And, yes, Sins, I have made the point over and over why there wasn't any money left for FEMA... FEMA is just Georges Bush's private little slush fund to be robbed for his various wars... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM Sinsull: Thanks for stating the obvious: For the record, this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president. Nothing GWB could have done would have averted this disaster. I don't know about needing firms and contracts when a city has it's own public transportation system "rotting away". Also there are emergency services to transprot the infirm elderly. Naturally some people will resist but the can't say they were not told. GWB is partially responsible for the rescue after the disaster. That effort would have been gratefully reduced and simplified if a mandatory evacuation had been enforced during the two whole days before the hurricane hit. Bobert uses the disaster like a hammer to pound a stake into GWB without regard to any local authorities whom are more at fault. If he was as compasionate as he claims he would be mad at the folks that are really at fault. In other words just another nasty, one way Bush rant by another Bush hater, blinded with anger. Anybody that disagrees is labled a Bushite in Bobert's steel trap mind while he points to the number of posts as if that proves him right. If he is so right, why are there so many posts? Bobert, you have not put forth anything that GWB could have done to avoid the disaster and loss of life, even after 600 +- posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM Sinsull: No. It was far from efficient. Did you hear that Amtrack offered to haul people out? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html "...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined." So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM LOL, GUEST, GUEST??? First of all, knowin' Sins as I do I think there was one of those typo tyhings in sayin' that the response to Katrina would have been worse under the Dems... While I ain't much of a Dem, their record with disasters will Clinton was makin' the calls in the 90's was a lot better than what we've seen with the Bush folks... Oh yeah, Bush did funnel millions and millions into the hands of folks in Florida, many of whom suffered no real damage, after a hurricasn in '04.... But this had nuthin' do do with disaaster relief but politics... Bush has never been shy in spending other people's money to stay in power..... And GUEST continues to pound this "blame-to-locals" drum as if they had the ****contracts**** funded and in place to make evertything work... What could Bush have done??? Well, GUEST, apparently are avoiding the the main crux of this debate as if it was a radiation pit... He could have funded FEMA!!!! What don't you undersatnd here??? Is this too over yer head, 'er what??? No, rather than put his koney where his mouth was, Bush used FEMA as a slush fund to fund DHS and his war in Iraq... FEAM was gutted!!! What don't you understand aboput this??? Okay, hey, I can live with you just comin' out and saying that the feds shouldn't be into helping communities with overwhelingh disasters... I've asked you repeatedly to say that and if you would just say that, we could just say that we have differences of opinion on what the federal government's role is or ain't... But, no, you won't answer that question... Ain't rocket surgery here, GUEST... If that's your opinion then fine... I can, without agreein' with ya', live with that... But, no... You continue yer defending Bush who: 1. Gutted FEMA 2. Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed 3. After 9/11 and his constant campaingn trail speech telling folks that he was "working hard" to "protect the American people..." But that's the nice thing about being a GUEST... Since you have no transparancy, you can say whatever you want irregardless of facts and reality.... I don't have that luxarty but it don't matter 'cause I have the truth and guess what, GUEST??? The historians will get this one right... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: SINSULL Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM Not a typo, Bobert. Sad but true the Democrats would have spent the next months pointing the finger and covering their butts too. Like it or not, GUEST, Katrina is one of the black eyes on the Bush administration. It was however a disaster waiting to happen. That blame lies with federal, state and local authorities for the past 25 years. Conditions in New Orleans are horrible even now - a year after the original event. That is Bush's fault. And you can bet an oil field that had this hurricane flattened a city in his home state, help would have been fast and furious. Had a few thousand well-coiffed Republican ladies been trapped in a sports arena, no amount of money, time, or manpower would have been spared to get them fresh drinking water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I guess we won't know until 35 years from now. Are you ready to admit that the disaster was mostly the fault of people other tham Bush? How's your newest "gate" gate doing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM All of these "had this of happened" or "had that have happened" is speculation and rhetoric. If the local authorities "had done their job" What would the outcome have been? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM No, it's Bush's fault... He makes the decisions on where the money goes or doesn't go and he gutted FEMA... Pure and simple... And his administration didn't order the feds to mobilize until 36 hours after Katrina inspite of requests from both state and local governments and warnings from Micheal Brown some 2 days before Katrina that this was going to be the "big one"... It won't take 35 years for the fact to come out... It's allready out... As fir the toher "gate" thread, I've asked for a anme change and and when I get it, more folks will get into the discussion... BTW, GUEST, wouldn't it bother you if the Dems were in power and takin' yer hard earned tax dollars and buyin' votes with them??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM Another IF. What if New Orleans had been evacuated? If the Dems were in power would you be happy? Did Bush cause them not to evacuate? What could Bush have done to avoid the disaster? What could the local authorities done to avoid the disaster? What politician does not buy votes with our tax dollar? Did you read this in you favorite corporate, for profit, leftwing rag?: Rejection of 'Earmarks' Angers Democrats GOP Subcommittee Chairman Says He Won't Honor Party's Projects in Bill By Dan Morgan and Juliet Eilperin Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A06 Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the House's second-ranking Democrat, hoped to use funds from a $138 billion spending bill now before Congress to upgrade the computer system at St. Mary's College of Maryland, modernize laboratories at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy, and support a nonprofit group that repairs the homes of poor, elderly and disabled Marylanders. Now those local projects, along with hundreds of others in districts represented by House Democrats, are jeopardized by an unusually nasty political battle that threatens to upset the traditional bipartisan comity of the House Appropriations Committee. ___ More On Congress ___ • Today in Congress: Today's floor and committee schedules • Hot Bills: Legislation that editors of Congressional Quarterly are watching this week • Appropriations Countdown: CQ tracks the progress of federal spending bills • In Session: The Post's Monday preview of the upcoming week on Capitol Hill • More on Congress: Visit Congressional Quarterly at CQ.com Free E-mail Newsletters * Daily Politics News & Analysis See a Sample | Sign Up Now * Federal Insider See a Sample | Sign Up Now * Breaking News Alerts See a Sample | Sign Up Now Rep. Ralph Regula (R-Ohio), who chairs the subcommittee that controls spending on education, health and jobs programs, recently stunned Democrats by announcing plans to reject every "earmarked" project they are seeking in the final, compromise version of the bill, which funds the departments of Education, Health and Human Services, and Labor. His reason: When the House passed the bill on July 10, all 198 Democrats present voted against it, several of them saying it shortchanged education programs. The bill passed, 215 to 208. Regula defended his decision in a letter to Rep. David R. Obey (Wis.), the committee's ranking Democrat, saying: "It is not unique for chairmen -- and ranking members, for that matter -- to use a member's support, or lack of it, as a factor in sorting through the thousands of program and project requests received during the year." Last year's bill included 1,859 local projects -- sometimes called "pork" -- requested by House members, with a value of $896 million. By tradition, the projects have been divided fairly evenly between Republicans and Democrats. Some say the rapid growth of such lawmaker-backed projects has injected a political element into the awarding of grants that are supposed to be based on merit and evenhanded formulas. Before Republicans took control of Congress in 1995, the Education-HHS-Labor bill was largely free of the earmarks. But the decision by Regula, a moderate Republican with a history of working collegially with the other party, has infuriated Democrats. Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) called the action an "abuse of power." Obey said Democrats were being punished for voting their consciences in July. And Hoyer said: "To tell the 130 million people represented by Democrats that they are shut out from getting health and education projects is consistent with the undemocratic, autocratic, confrontational process that's being followed by House Republicans." But Regula has held his ground. He said in his letter to Obey that the several hundred million dollars initially set aside for Democratic projects will be directed to school-related programs across the country. Hinting that the nine Republicans and one independent who voted against the bill would also go without their projects, he wrote: "I am certainly not trying to intimidate members." But that is exactly what Democrats say Republicans are trying to do. Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and other House conservatives have long chafed at the clubby, bipartisan environment of the powerful Appropriations Committee, where Congress's constitutionally mandated power over the nation's purse strings resides. Conservatives regularly brand the committee -- regardless of which party controls it -- as a big-spending body that frustrates all efforts to control the federal budget. Regula has indicated he will seek the committee's chairmanship when Rep. C.W. "Bill" Young (R-Fla.) steps down in 2005. Democrats conjecture that Regula may be trying to show GOP colleagues he is fiscally conservative and tough enough to deserve their votes. "I think Ralph Regula is a good person," Hoyer said. "I think he's been put in a position by a very hard-nosed caucus and by his own desire to make a statement." Regula said in an interview: "In the final analysis, the chairman has a lot of decisions to make. On the other hand we're a team, and we reflect Republican policy." The fight threatens to polarize a committee that has been an "oasis of decency and sanity," said Allen Schick, a fellow at the Brookings Institution. No panel in Congress has been more closely identified with liberal Democratic priorities of the past 40 years than Regula's subcommittee. It funds the Head Start preschool program, federal aid to education, job training, aid to families unable to pay winter heating bills and other initiatives dating to President Lyndon B. Johnson's War on Poverty and Great Society agenda. A Who's Who of top House Democrats serves on it. Pelosi was a member until recently. Hoyer, Obey, Nita Lowey (N.Y.), who chairs the party's campaign committee in the House, and her predecessor in that job, Patrick J. Kennedy (R.I.), serve on it. So do Reps. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (Ill.), a high-profile black lawmaker, and Lucille Roybal-Allard (Calif.), a prominent Hispanic lawmaker. Democrats say the real victims of Regula's policy will be the poor. Of the nation's 50 poorest congressional districts, 42 are represented by Democrats. Democrats say schools and community groups in these districts often need help from their member of Congress for worthwhile projects. Hoyer had hoped to get $400, 000 -- the same as last year -- for a group called Rebuilding Together. The nonprofit organization works with volunteers to rehabilitate homes of the poor, elderly and disabled. Rep. Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) was seeking $2 million for the Sheppard Pratt Health System in Towson, and $560,000 for the Anne Arundel County Health Department to enhance bioterrorism preparations. Other Maryland Democratic House members had asked for funds for improvements at the Holy Cross Hospital in Silver Spring, a community health facility in Baltimore County and the Aberdeen magnet high school. But Regula signaled in his letter to Obey that he would not waver. "I do believe that the House bill was a fair and balanced bill that deserved the support of members from both sides of the aisle," he wrote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM Question #1: There was no way in Heck thaT NO was going to be evacuated without contracts in place to do it... And there's no city in the US, or world fir that matter (kuwauit being the exception) that has the dough to tie up that would be required to evacuate their city... Qusetion #2: No, the Dems are no more than the lesser of two evils... Guestion #3: Yes, Bush is mostly responsible for not funding the exact program, FEMA, that was the safety net that Americans thought was under them... Qustion #4: You love this dumb qusetion, GUEST... Nuthin' at all... Bush couldn't have avoided the disaster... It's the response to the disaster is where Bush came up short... Question #5: The local and state governments were ***over whelmed***... They were beggin' for assistence from the feds... Blanco, who the Bush apologists had accused of being asleep at the wheel, has provided thousands of documents related to her requests... Bush, on the opther hand, is sandbaggin' on releasing what he was doinhjg in response to the requests... Qestion #6: Yezzir, there is a certain amount of tax dollars that go toward buyin' votes, be it as little as the printing and mailings that Congressfolk do to make themselves look as if they actually care about their constituents, or rainin' billions of dollars down in states that where Bush won by 2 or 3 points in 2000... Big difference between a letter and a check for 40 grand for imagined damages that Farmer Brown didn't even know occured on his farm... And fir the record, my leftwing rag is the Washington Post and New York Times whci both supoorted Bush's invasion of Iraq... As fir the rest of the cut 'n paste Republican blog... Responding to them is an exercie in futility... They are financed by very rich people who are enjoyin' the heck out of this supposed economic recovery where 90% of Americans are doing worse than 6 years ago... Yeah, these blogs are nuthing but propaganda... They pick thru piles of facts and only print those which make their side look as if it's the moral side when in fact these folks who finance these blogs are nuthin' but thieves who are rippin' off my hard earned tax dollars... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM The answer to question #1 is evasive bullshit. They had emergency evauation plans and they did not follow their plan. The answer to question# 2 I presume is no, you still wouldn't be happy. The answer to #3 has nothing to do with the emergency plans of the local and state authorities. The answer to #4 I presume is Bush could have done nothing to avoid the disaster. the answer to question #5 does not apply to the time before the hurricane made landfall. The time when they could have and should have evacuated. #6 was from the Washington Post. YOUR BEACON OF TRUTH, Not a blog. Can you see "Washington Post Staff Writers" or do you ignore it and bluster along? You claim something as being a lie before you even read it to see if it is a lie. New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28: NEW ORLEANS (AP) In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin. Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome. The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights. Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin’s court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration missed the boat. Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina. As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city s government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them. If you’re keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleansin one tripget ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they’d bothered to follow it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:19 PM "has provided thousands of documents related to her requests" Have you looked at those documents? I unlike you have taken the time to browse an herer is the first one I looked at: Report to the Goveners Office on media coverage of the New Orleans Levee Board. The Board of Comissioners of the Orleans Levee District New Orleans, La. PROTECTING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY Response to the NBC Nightly News investigative report of 9/14/05 s the Orleans Levee Board doing its job? Critics allege corruption, charge the board with wasteful spending The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans -- the same levees that failed after Katrina hit.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM Bobert: Here is a hot one among the thousands of documents. It is titled Goveners Correspondence 1 August 27 2005: August 27, 2005 The President The White House Washington, D. C. Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209 Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005,(the day before the letter was written) and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan. Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, (what is that?) direct Federal Assistance, ($9 million later raised to $130 million) Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, (Before the disaster?) Special Needs Program assistance, (what is that?) and debris removal."(before the debris is there?) Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A. The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency: . Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing on Standby. . Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening Shelters and establishing on Standby. . Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. . Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas. . Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions. . Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi. The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident: . FEMA ERT-A Team en-route. I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act. I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property. (a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable). (b) Specify the type of assistance requested. In accordance with 44 CFR � 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance: 1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work. 2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work; 3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and 4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters. In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety. Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris. I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf. Sincerely, Kathleen Babineaux Blanco Governor I don't see any mention of anything she needed before the storm hit. Am I missing something? She said they were evacuating and did not ask for any assistance fot that. Bobert points to thousands of documents as proof that he is right and he does not know what is in the documents. He is too lazy to read them. They are proof that Blanco, the local and state authorities failed the people of New Orleans and Lousianna. It is obvious that these things she is requesting are for after the storm passes, not during or before the storm. In other words she said she had it under control but she would need help afterwards. On August 27, 2005, Governor Blanco speaking on Hurricane Katrina told the media in Jefferson Parish "I believe we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." I touoght it was Bush that did the bragging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM I'll respond in length later to yer posts, GUEST, but the manner in which the so-called "article" in the New Orleans Times-Picayne is written is very much the way "editorials" are written... It does not have the jounalistic integrity that I'm used to from reading the Post or NY Times... We have a paper here in the DC area, The Washington Times, that lacks jounalistic integrity also... The Editorial page is thwe entire front page and is filled with suppositions and opinions... More later... Tractor and bush-hog have laid claim to my day... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM I go tractorin' and bush hoggin' too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM You are a hoot, GUEST... Apparently you don't have any real experience in real live governemnt, do you??? Okay, GUEST, rather than go point by point here lets just take it slow and easy 'cause when we go point by point you tend to not respond to various points... So you think that my response to yer question about following plans is "bulls**t"... Lets talk a little about plans here... This isn't about wheteher or not there was a so-called plan in place to evaculate NO but the realities of having a workable plan in place... So let me ask you a few questions... 1. Take an average metropolitan area of 1,000,000 people... Do you have any idea what the cost would be to transport yer popultaion out of that area to a safe place??? 2. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to have contracts in place to house and feed yer population for, say, 30 days??? 3. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to restore your community back to where it is livable so that your population can return??? These are just the basics... Then throw in the disabled, the incarcerated, those folks living in homeless shelters, battered woman centers, half way houses... Throw in police protection of the paroperties of those evaculated, the colleges, the hospitals, yer movable assests... And not to forget, the first responders, the folks who will be there fighting the disaster, be them firemen or teams of folks with boats for rescue... See, GUEST, you seem to want to minimalize the realities of a full scale evacuation by saying merely, "Well, there was a plan"... This is just one area where you an I differ... Plans are a dime a dozen... Any kid with a masters degree in public administartion can write a "plan"... Problem is, when the chips are down, what we see is that underfunded plans don't work... Now back to those budget work sessions that I've brought up a time or two... Cities and towns are strapped for cash... Yeah, they might have someone on staff that can put together a "plan" but if you go back to the questions I asked you, what do you really think is going to happen when the "big one" hits??? I mean, let's get real here, GUEST... You live in some kind of dream world if uyou think that major population centers have those kinds of readially available resources... A complete dream world bnot based on a smidgen of real world knowledge or wisdom... Now TO WIT: Even the Bush administration recognized that a major population cneter could become so "over whelmed" that it would need federal assistence to deal with a disaster... Alot of folks before him allreadt knew this but Bush is a hard head and would rather try reinventin' the wheel rather than accept the fact that the wheel allready esisted... Yes, the entire idea of FEMA had recognized that there were situations where local or regionial (COG's) governments could be overwhelmed... But in Bush's reinventing the wheel his own folks siad, "Hey, we need a plan in case a local or regional government is overwhelmed" and thus the National Response Plan... Hey, the Dems didn't force this on them... They wrote it and in doing so recognized that local or regional governemnts could be over whelmed by a disaster... Now before we go on will you admit that hanging endlessly on yer argument that NO had a "plan" is somewhat simplistic and not based on the real world??? Hey, we have to start somewhere... A mean, if you want tro debate this, then lets get it on right here where it all begins... You stickin' with yer premise that major population centers ahve adaquate and funded evaculation plans??? If that is yer argument then we will just have to stay right here until you better understand the real world... No slam intended.... And no, you may think this is all a lot of "bulls**t" but I not only have been in budget sessions but also have a purdy good grasp of public administration... But if this is where we fight it out, then this is where we fight it out... No reason to delve into a greater discussion until you at least accept the same realities that the Bush staffers accepted in writing the National Response Plan... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM #1 If the plan was unworkable, Why was it the plan? Why would they have an unworkable plan? That is a big a failure as not following the plan. Either way it is a failure of the state and local authorities. I hear form Poppagator that the evacuation was successful because 80% of the people were evacuated. How about the other 20%? What was the problem there? Sending people to the Super Dome and the convention center was a mistake. It was discovered in an evacuation in 1998 that the Superdome was not suitable. So having an unworkable evacuation plan lets them off of the hook? Maybe the NRP was unworkable too. How did evacuations in the surrounding areas go? Hurricane Rita? They learned their lesson and got the people out of there in time. You can accuse me of not being in the real world all you want but it does not make it so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM No, GUEST, you are mistaken... And in denial... You apparently do not live in the real world... No slam, just fact... Underfunded plans are a joke... I know... The business I owned and operated for two decades was in flood plane and because of this the town had to pay annual insurance premiums to FEMA for the businesses and homes in the flood plane and the businesses in the flood plane were required to file evacuation plans yearly with the town... These mimie plans become part of the larger ones... But these pieces of the ovarall plans are written by small business owners who do not have the aswsests to have contracts in place to carry out their plans.. That is reality... So it comes down to small business owners having plans in place where listed family members will carry out the evacuation of anything in the business that isn't anchored down... I recall a freekish thunderstorm about 6 years ago that within an hour flooded the flood plane... There was no way that any small business had the resources or time to evacuate... Might of fact, there was one area where the water got to 4 feet deep and a buddy's auto repair shop was right in that bowl and there was no real way out short of swimming, ropes or a boat... Now you can say that my buddy is the one responsible for not having a sufficient plan in place and while ***technically*** you are correct in a ***real wiorld*** sense you are very niave... My buddy's business is just a micro-cosim of the real world... This is why FERMA was created... There has long been an understanding that there is a point where areas of the country need disaster aid beyond that which might be addressed in underfunded plans... Might of fact, the idea of FEMA is a bargain since for cities and towns would to have to consume resources that they clearly don't have by raiasing your and my taxes to have costly resources and assests available in place for the "big one"... If each town and city had to do this there would be alot of wasted taxes going to provide overlapping plans... Think about it this way... Take the interstate highway system, for example... What if eash county and town had to fund, build and maintain the portion of the system that ran thru there county or town??? I mean no disrespect here but, get beyond the pipe dreams, GUEST... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM What the hell are you talking about? Flood plains get flooded frequently. It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of FEMA screwed up from the Northeast? When hurricane Rita hit it devastated Lake Charles like NO was devastated by Katrina but the place was evacuated and there were no deaths. Was their plan funded? Were contracts in place? How did they pull it off? Your underfunded plan claim is bogus. You have your nose up WAPOs ass so far you are not aware of happenings in the real world. Rita whips Lake Charles, but no deaths reported By Yancey Roy, Gannett News Service LAKE CHARLES, La. — Hurricane Rita pulverized this petrochemical and casino city Saturday, wiping out electricity, phones and running water. Yet it was not the worst-case scenario that some had predicted just days ago: 10 feet of water running through downtown Lake Charles. That was because virtually everyone in Cameron and Calcasieu parishes left the area at least a day before the storm hit. There were reports of very few injuries and no fatalities 12 hours after Rita passed through. There were hundreds and hundreds of felled trees, flooded neighborhoods and boathouses, smashed windows, collapsed roofs, strewn carports and free-swinging electrical lines. Bayou Contraband, which runs through the south side of town, spilled over its banks in areas and filled upscale neighborhoods. A string of 13 consecutive utility poles were keeled over and rested on a usually busy highway near the McNeese State University farm south of town. The wind howled all night, as Rita made landfall near the Texas-Louisiana border. A lower pitched, muscular hum signaled stronger blasts that peeled off roofs. "Oooh, I never heard any wind like that in my life," said Donald Lewis, who walked around town surveying damage Saturday morning. During the night, the storm ripped the roof off an adjacent apartment complex and slammed it into his house, he said. "When I looked out, my mind flipped," he said, "because I never seen anything like that." Further south, in low-lying, marsh-filled Cameron Parish, five feet of water stopped sheriff's deputies cold at the Gibbstown bridge, which spans the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway about 20 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico. There was about nine feet of standing water in Holly Beach, a Cameron Parish community of ramshackle fish camps and weather-beaten houses on the shore, said Larry Jinks, Johnson Bayou fire chief. "We can't get down there with a helicopter or a flat boat," said Tracey Webb, of the Cameron Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness. In Lake Charles, Harrah's Pride, one of the floating casinos, came unhinged from its moorings. Officials advised people not to come back — and added that they won't say until Monday when residents can return. Power could be out longer. Lake Charles and most surrounding towns imposed curfews, most of them ordering people to be off the streets from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM "Flood plains get flooded frequently." (GUEST, last post) Oh contrare, GUEST... See, this perhaps is why I find yer endless cut 'n pastes hardly worth the time... Call up yer local FEMA representative and ask him or her if that statement alone is true... See, that's why we're not gettin' anywhere... You do not live in the real world when it comes to facts... Okay, I'll save you the embarassment of havin' to make the call... Yer statement that "flood plains get flooded frequently" is not accurate... If you were to just look at any FEMA flood plain map in any area where you have a stream you'll find elevations within the flood plain district that will flood every 100 years and other areas that will flood every 500 years!!! But don't believe me... Make the call if you wish... Unfortunately, I have a little experience with this as I have owned and still own property in flood plains and pay my annual $800 for FEMA insurance for the one I own now... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM So flood plains do not get flooded? Gee, why do the call them flood plains? Why do you buy flood insurance? Everybody time I go to a settlement I hear the crap about a 100 year flood plain and flood insurance. In my lifetime I have seen several 100 year flood plains get flooded more than once. Hence from my REAL WORLD experience I know flood plains flood frequently. It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of "FEMA screwed up" from the Northeast? Bobert your ass has been whipped. You don't have a leg to stand on and you are clutching at straws. But keep on flailing away like Godzilla fending off the rockets. We have been all thru "bush negelected the levees" "bush dismantled FEMA" "Bush would have screwed up FEMA even if the Dems had left it alone" It all boils down to "I don't like Bush so I will light one of my stink bombs to make him look bad" Let's get back to what Bush could have done to avert the diasater in New Orleans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM LOL, GUEST... It's yer as that has been whipped... You have not rebutted any of the initian positions I laid out... And now that I'm tryinh' to hold yer feet to the fire on one thing at a time you've come up with nuthin' other than yer usual: What could Bush have done to avert the disaster... What??? Have you appointed Bush as God, 'er what??? For the um-teeenth time, Bush couldn't have averted the danged hurricane... Yeah, the boy has grasped as much power as any executive in modern history but to stop hurricans??? Nah.. What Bush has done isn't about avertin' disasters, which come in natural and man-made forms, but in how well (or not) he was prepared to step in with real plans and real assests to "protect the American people"... The proof is in the pudding... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM BTW, what do you think Bush thought "We need everything you've got..." (Memo written to Bush by Gov. Blanco, August 29th)???? BTW, part 2... Are you even aware that FEMA had promised 500 buses. GUEST??? Nah, didn't think so... So if yer in a 24/7 emergency like Blanco was and yer havin' to make decisions at warp speed and folks are tellin' you that FEMA has 500 buses "standing by".... What, are y6ou going to stop everything else to be sure that FEMA is telling the truth??? Yeah, GUEST... I ain't too sure what you been smokin' but pass a little of it over this direction, will ya'??? Then by Sept 2nd, Blanco complained to the White House that requests to the feds for "40,000 more troops, ice, waterand food, buses, base camps, staging areas, amphibious vehicles, mobile morgues, rescue teams, housing, airlift and communications systems" to FEMA failed to come thru... Do you have a clue yet, GUEST, as to why FEMA was unable to respond??? No dough, pal... It had been diverted into the DHS and the war in Iraq... And you have the audasity to suggest that it is my ass who is reachin' fir straws.... LOL.... I have come to the conclusion that you, GUEST, are clueless... Like I said... LOL... Yer arguments are weaker than branch water... Might of fact, branch water would kick yer butt every way to Sunday.... BTW, you never answerted a very basic question in this discussion... Do you feel the federal governemnt has any responsibility in responding to regional disasters???? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM Bush on the brain Bobert: I am asking again what amount of money would it have taken under the Bush administration, to avert the disaster from happening? Spending any amount of money on Fema could not have averted the disaster. Their job is to help AFTER the disaster. Is FEMA in the rescue business? Yes the federal governemnt has a responsibility in responding to regional disasters. The key word here is responding, not jumping in there and wresting control from the first responders to try to prevent the disaster. Here are people drowning and in need of rescue because the levee system was flawed and neglected for years before the Bush adminstration, because they were not evacuated by the first responders before the disaster struck. You are not only clueless but growing more belligerent as your bias and ignorance become more obvious. I suppose after hurricane Andrew everything was fine? According to the WSJ, "FEMA hit its nadir with its 1992 handling of Hurricane Andrew" As for promises, Blanco promised "we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." Why FEMA was unable to respond??? BHecause the Dems insisited on making FEMA part of DHS instead of leaving it alone. Now they want to change it back. But it didn't say that in the Washington Post so you will have to fight that assertion until the last jet fighter fires the last rocket at your tough hide and you finally go down in flames. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:45 AM Correction: Is FEMA in the rescue business? Should have been is FEMA in the Evacuation business? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM How much money??? I don't know... I'm not an engineer... Are you??? If so, how much money do you think??? One thing fir sure is that the folks who are engineers asked for $100M from the Bush administration for maintenance the year before Katrina but got just 17% of what was requested... Yes, that's right... Tight-wad Bush only funded the Army Corpes of Enginners at 17%!!! And worse yet, GUEST: Had Bush funded the the levee system at 100%, that was just for Cat 3 protection!!! Now I know you will continue the only line of argument that you have (which, BTW, is weak) in askin' folks like P-Gator and me to prove that had Bush funded the levee at what the Army Corpes of Engineers requested that NO would not have flooded... Yeah, if this was Philosophy 101 yer line of defense is equivelant to the ol' "Prove you exist" question... In other words... You are flailin' at this point of the discussion with a rather juvinilistic line of reasoning... And attacking the Washington Post, while it may play well to rednecks, is nuthin' more than a not-so-clever line of defense either... Might of fact, your rebuttals, if that's what you call them have become boringly predictable... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM So what amount of money would have done the job? Sounds pretty simple to me. The amount requested? What would have that amount have accomplished in the time frame? Your assertion taht underfunding caused the disaster is bogus. Did the levees fail because of lack of maintenence? You see the disaster as a political opportunity and you just keep ragging on about the talking points provided to you by the Washington Post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:43 AM Well, well, well... Here we are on the eve of the 1at anniversary of Katrina and the subsequent "gate" and if one will just read GUEST's last post that's about all that the Bush apologists have come up to explain the absolute dismal failure on Bush and this folks to put their money where their post-9/11 mounths were in "protecting the American people"... Ha! No make that haha... And the Bush failure isn't about "politics" but policies... That's what Bushites can't understand... Yeah, they constantly make references about folks hatin' Bush and bashin' Bush but when it comes down to it there are a lot of us who just see a string of failed and ill-thought-out policies my a very corrupt administartion that has used every little political trick in the book... Yeah, I've made no bones about my distrust of the Dems but I genuinely hope they take one house of Congress so that we will finally get a real investigation into why the Bush administartion blew it's response to Katrina... ...among ohter scandals which have been swept under Karl Rove's carpet... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM Well Well Well, Here it is a year after Katrina and the best the Nagin/Blanko appologists have been able to come up with is "It's all Bush's fault" And again, what amount of money would it have taken to prevent another Katrina disaster at this point? What could have been done in one year's time to get the levees up to Cat 5 standards? What could have been done over the last 5 1/2 years to get the levees up to Cat 5 standards? All the anti Bushites have their fingers crossed hoping it will happen agin so they can piss and moan some more about how Bush is holding back the money. Hopefully the Blanko boast "we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." really means something this time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:19 PM I have referrred you back to the National Response Plan over and over, O.G., but seein' as that blows yer argument out of the water you conviently ignore it as if it didn't/doesn't exist... Ands for the record, Katrina wasn't a Cat 5 storm... It has now been officially been downgraded to a Cat 3 at the time of landing... But please don't let facts boggle yer mind... And while you are ignoring facts, go on ignoring that Bush only funed the maintenance on the levees at less than 20% of what the Army Corpes of Engineers requested... Yeah, you love ignoring that one or if yer not ignoring it you are askin' me to provide "proof" that had the levee maintainance been fully funded that the levee's would have been breached... That is an unreasonable rebuttal... It would be like me challenging you to prove that you exist... Very sophmorish Philosphy 201 crap that has nuthin' to do with the ***fact*** that the Army Corps of Engineers requested $100M and Bush sent $17M... Yeah, Old Guy, have yer fun pullin' one right winged Bushite cut 'n paste outta yer butt 'cause there are plenty of them out there and they are extrememly well funded... Problem is that as well funded as they are they are there to protect to flow of money from the middle class to the rich... That is their ***only*** purpose... And they do this by takin' 100% of the facts, ignoring 99% of the facts and distortin' the crap outta the 1%... That's exactly what they are paid to do... Blanko, for instatnce, has released over 100,000 documents and notes about what she did and said and requested during Kartina... Bush, on the ohter hand, is hiding behind the usual executive priviledge... Tell ya' what, Oldster... The American people are figurin' it out purdy rapidly... Too bad that you are so blindly partisan that you can't accept facts... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:16 PM Please point to where I said Katrina was a cat 5 storm Oh fact filled rancorous one? Is that flow of money coming towards you or away from you? How does your net worth compare to say 2000 when Clinton was still in power? You have a uncontrolable reflex reaction like when the doc hits your knee with the little hammer. When someone syas Katrina you say Bush did it. When someone says the mayor of NO and the Gov of La were incompetent, you say Bushite. When someone says they did not evacuate accordibng ti their plan you say NRP. On CSpan book TV the other day there was a guy named George Lakhoff speaking. He was the campaign advisor for Howard Yehaaaaa Dean. Some one asked him "explain why you say George Bush is not incompetent?" He said of course. Take for instance the Katrina incedent. He talked about Brownie and the guy before him and then he sid the GWB considered the threat of terrorisim greater than the threat of a disaster like Katrina. It is not a matter of incompetence, it is a matter of Republican conservative ideology. That is the Bobert fixation. He has to blame everything on GWB. http://www.booktv.org/afterwords/index.asp George Lakoff says the United States is divided by two dramatically different worldviews on the notion of freedom. As he explains in his book, "Whose Freedom?: The Battle over America's Most Important Idea," progressives and conservatives have different value systems that expand the notion of freedom in opposite directions. According to Mr. Lakoff, progressives encourage social security, the minimum wage, universal health care, and college for all -- ways to guarantee freedom from want. Comparatively, he argues that conservatives believe giving people things they haven't earned creates dependency and robs people of their freedom. Hey Bobert, did you earn yours? Yesterday, Dr. George Lakoff, Director of the Rockridge Institute, published an article pointing out that Progressives have fallen into a trap: thinking and saying that the failures of the Bush Administration are Mr. Bush's alone. Emboldened by President Bush's plummeting approval ratings, he argues that progressives increasingly point to Bush's "failures" and label him and his administration as incompetent. Self-satisfying as this criticism may be, Lakoff says it misses the bigger point, and I agree: Bush's disasters—Katrina, the Iraq War, the budget deficit—are not so much a testament to his incompetence or a failure of execution. Rather, they are the natural, even inevitable result of his conservative governing philosophy. It is conservatism itself, carried out according to plan, that is at fault.It's not Bush the man who has been so harmful, it's the conservative agenda. To Bush's base, his bumbling folksiness is part of his charm—it fosters conservative populism. Bush plays up this image by proudly stating his lack of interest in reading and current events, his fondness for naps and vacations and his self-deprecating jokes. This image causes the opposition to underestimate his capacities and deflects criticism of his conservative allies. If incompetence is the problem, it's all about Bush. But, if conservatism is the problem, it is about a set of ideas, a movement and its many adherents. It's NOT Incompetence The incompetence frame drastically misses the point: that the conservative vision is doing great harm to this country and the world. Incompetence obscures the real issue; Bush's conservative philosophy is what has damaged this country and it is his philosophy of conservatism that must be rejected, whoever endorses it. Unless conservative philosophy itself is discredited, Conservatives will continue their domination of public discourse, and with it, will continue their domination of politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM "conservatives believe giving people things they haven't earned creates dependency and robs people of their freedom." Unless it is citizenship for a wetback. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:51 AM First of all, Old Guy, unless you are a memeber of the First Nation, you are a descendant of an immigrant... The strength of the US economy thru the 90's was greatly enhanced by the inexpensive labor of Hispanics... Note that I would no more use the term "wetback" than I would "niggar"... It is a racist term... But that's for another thread... As for Dr. Lakoff's observations I would partially agree with him... He makes a general statement about the way folks look what we expect from the federal governemnt... The conservative movement has for the last several decades, especially since Goldwater, been is the "starve the beast" mode of thinking where tax cuts would eventually make the feds provide less services to the genaerl population... Problem with Bush is that he delivered on the tyax cut part but hasn't had the conservative guts to cut the spending... This isn't inherently conservative... This is some bastardized idealistis radicalism where economic suicide seem to be the goal... As for my net worth??? I began buildin' it in 1985 and by 2000 it was purdy much what it is today... Most can be attributed to the roarin' 90's when Slick Willie, the best ***pure*** Republican that the Repubs have had in my life time, was in office... Since 2000, I've had to work awfully hard to just maintain the net worth I had in 2000... But I'm like most small businessmen who haven't enjoyed the supposed strong economy that Bush keeps talkin' about... The 300% increse in my health insurance, for one, has eroded any gains I might have made... This one expense has hurt the small buisnessman harder than any other and purdy much offset any gains... I know a lot of other small businessmen and this is what I hear from them, as well... Now back to Katrina... Gotta go to work... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Flash Company Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM I regret that I haven't the stamina to read all the posts above, but watched on UK TV the other night a programme about a Jazz photographer who lost his house and his archive, though thankfully not his negatives, in Katrina. S & I were horrified by how little appears to have been achieved in twelve months. Prof. Marsalis appears to be making some efforts on behalf of the musical fraternity, but it should not be down to charity to start the recovery. FC |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:13 PM Yeah, Flash, yer right... Bush will boast of how much has been "allocated" but not say much about how much has been "spent"... There's a big difference... And even that portion that has been spent we will one day find was redirected to fund something entirely different... The 2004 budget, for instance, contained $6.6B for FEMA... Problem is that FEMA just became a bank for the Department of Home land Security and the Department of Defense (think the Iraq War here...)... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:49 PM You are right Bobert, wetback is a derogatory name. I will call them illegal immigrants in the future. I am still opposed to amnesty for illegal immigrants. My ancestors were immigrants, French and English, but they entered the country legally If there were any immigration laws back them. I like immigrants. Whenever I run across one who has trouble speaking english so it can be understood, I always show thwm how to pernounce it hillbilly style and that are amused and friendly. I think immigrants are what makes this country great. The more the merrier as long as they comehere legally and follow the laws. I think quotas and whatever is needed in resources and manpower to process them should be increased. I don't think illegal immigrants do anything for this country except keep labor in certain trades and areas low, even for legal immigrants. The republicans like the cheap lagor. The Dems hope to give them a vote so they will vote for them. This creates a slave type of situation where they don't have any legal standing to do anything about their situation. Still it is better than their situation in Mexico so they keep coming. The law shoud be inforced and they should not be allowed to work in the US until they enter legally and follow the law. Now Mr Bobert, About this "flow of money from the middle class to the rich", your net worth is the same? Then how do you support that claim. Small Businesses View Virginia's Business Climate Favorably Release Date: 03/ 01/ 2005 View the full set of questions and responses for the Virginia Small-Business Conditions report, March 2005. CONTACT: Gordon Dixon, (804) 377-3661 or Jim Brown, (615) 874-5288 New NFIB Survey Indicates State Faring Well in Region Despite Some Concerns VIRGINIA -- Virginia's overall business climate is supportive of small business, especially when compared to some of its neighboring states, according to the inaugural Virginia Small-Business ConditionsSM report. The report's data, which is the first compilation of its type, was released today by the National Federation of Independent Business/Virginia. It provides an overview of small-business conditions within Virginia and compares them with neighboring states. A net 35 percent (positive percent minus negative percent) of respondents to a recent survey indicated Virginia is supportive of small business. Comparatively, Maryland and Tennessee registered a net 31 percent in each state, while North Carolina reported a nearly identical net 36 percent. In Virginia, more than 50 percent said government officials, bankers, media outlets and community organizations are supportive or highly supportive of small business while 15 percent said those same entities are not supportive or not at all supportive. "Virginia is a relatively business-friendly state," NFIB/Virginia State Director Gordon Dixon said. "However, this study also shows that small businesses remain concerned about several challenges, including access to affordable health insurance." Dixon said 35 percent of respondents indicated employee health premiums are rising more rapidly than any other insurance cost. Rising workers' compensation premiums (12 percent), the No. 2 concern, lagged significantly. A net 53 percent of the state's small employers indicated business conditions in their market area are good, which trailed Maryland (net 65 percent) but surpassed North Carolina (net 38 percent) and Tennessee (net 47 percent). A net 24 percent saw those conditions improving, which compared to a net 25 percent in Maryland, net 27 percent in North Carolina and net 21 percent in Tennessee. A net 71 percent characterized the outlook for business over the next three months as good, citing sales prospects (43 percent) and greater productivity (12 percent) as primary reasons for their view. A net 31 percent indicated that profits were "good," and a net 46 percent of those same respondents characterized sales as "good." Overall, a net 42 percent of small employers reported that over the last three months their purchasing prices rose, while a net 14 percent reported they had increased selling prices. http://www.nfib.com/object/sbcva0305.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:32 AM Yer tryin' to divert attention away from the Bush failures in responding to Katrina, O.G.... Plus, yer cut 'n paste is in reference to how supportive Virginia is toward business and I wouldn't disagree... My point had nuthin' to do with how supportive Virginia is to business... My point was that if you were to poll the "small" mom n' pop small businesses I think you'd find that an overwhelming percentage would say the what gains they have made since 2000 have been erased by run-away health care and health care insurance costs... That is certainly my case and I know a lotta other folks who are in the same situation... Thios so-called recovery that you and yer hero brag about is nothin' more than a ***fat cat recovery***... It ain't trickled down to the small businessan, irregardless of how supportive the sate and local governemnts are... (Bonus Question)And for the record, can you put your finger on when the state of Virginia became more supportive of business in general??? And who gets the lion's share of the credit??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM From the Albany Times-Union ..."When it comes to Katrina, he has a lot to be modest about. To critics such as Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, however, the President's conciliatory attitude comes too late. Dean noted in a CNN interview that "the response to Katrina was effectively the end to the President's presidency in the sense that people all of a sudden saw the small man behind the (Wizard of Oz) curtain. ... We suddenly saw an American president just descend into failure and I don't think he's ever recovered from that." Dean, of course, is not a neutral observer. But plenty of other observers agree that the Bush administration badly bungled Katrina from the start and the slow recovery is still being mishandled. Thousands of displaced families are waiting for FEMA trailers. An estimated 11 percent of the $19 billion spent by FEMA has been lost to waste, fraud and abuse, according to testimony at a congressional hearing. The Department of Homeland Security's inspector general is investigating. Congress didn't approve needed housing money for homeowners in Louisiana until June, and the money has not yet reached those homeowners. Less than half the $110 billion in federal money that Bush boasted earlier this month as earmarked for relief efforts -- only $44 billion -- has actually been spent, according to the government's Katrina recovery czar, Donald Powell. Katrina killed more than 1,500 residents along the Gulf Coast; scores remain missing. A year after the storm hit, the levees are still not reassuringly reinforced. And the city is still without a viable reconstruction plan. ..." A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM Yup, there were bush failures in responding to Katrina. There was a person on Current TV with footage of Katrina. One of the thing he said was "despite what the networks are sayng, FEMA is here" and he taped a FEMA vehicle and FEMA activity on Monday after Katrina hit. You can't get much more left wing than Current TV. I don't recall bragging about any fat cat recovery. And no I can't put my finger on when the state of Virginia became more supportive of business in general??? And who gets the lion's share of the credit??? I do know that Virginia has a right to work law that puts the Kibosh on Unionizing. Virginia's Economy May Bear 'Mark of Kaine'. Virulent Right to Work Opponent Slated For New Administration: Demonstrating that Big Labor knew what it was doing when it went all-out toget him elected last year, new Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine (D) has nominated arabble-rousing former union official to akey position in his administration. The nomination constitutes clear evidence that Mr. Kaine made a promise as a gubernatorial candidate not to tamperwith Virginia's cherished Right to Worklaw only because he thought he had to, in view of overwhelming public opposition to forced unionism. While a direct attack on the law by the Kaine Administration remains unlikely, Right to Work supporters can nowcertainly expect Kaine appointees to try to sabotage the law's enforcement. Mr. Kaine nominated longtime Virginia AFL-CIO boss Danny LeBlancto be his secretary of the commonwealth back in December, several weeks before he was inaugurated as governor... ...Right to Work laws, now on the booksin a total of 22 states, simply prohibit the firing of employees for refusal to paydues or fees to an unwanted union. By checking Big Labor excesses, such laws foster a good business climate. As a group, Right to Work states havea long track record of superior job and real income growth. But to Mr. LeBlanc, Right to Worklaws' aim is to "keep us [workers] down."(Since Mr. LeBlanc said this as the top executive of the Virginia AFL-CIO, hisself-description as a "worker" was rather dubious, but that's another story.) Moreover, Mr. LeBlanc has publicly proclaimed he doesn't "respect"businesses that choose to locate in Right to Work states for economic reasons." Danny LeBlanc plainly has no respect for the employee's freedom as an individual or for how the free-enterprise system works," commented Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Committee."And when a prominent Virginia Right to Work supporter asked how the governor could justify such nominations,he reportedly received this cynical response: 'I've got debts to pay.'" If you go here you will see a photo of LeBlnac standing under a medallion of Lenin, http://www.nrtwc.org/nl/nl200603p6.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM The Monday after Katrina, Old Guy??? What day of thr week did Katrina hit??? Now if you are saying that FEMA was there the following Monday then that would make it one week to the day... One week?!?!?!?... Is this what you now want folks to think is acceptable??? Now as fir Virginia slipping thru the 14(b) loophole of the Taft-Hartley Act, I find that shamefull and a large reason why there is still abject poverty throughout the state, especially among black people... This is not about being pro-business as much as it is the remnents of slavery and a century of Jim Crow... Havin' grown up in Virginia, next to slavery and Jim Crow, 14(b) is the most disgusting symbol of institutaional racism in the commonwealth's history and downright disgraceful... I know... I spent the first half of my working life working with folks who had been directly or indirectly impoverished by 14(b)... As fir the one person who, IMO, has been such a boon to the business community in my life time, it was Democratis Governor Mark Warner who really changed laws and attitudes... But screw "right to work"... It is really right to exploit... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM Well Well Well This guy is competent but Bush is not: "You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. Let's be fair," Nagin said on "60 Minutes." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:21 PM Monday, August 29 7AM CDT — KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE Later on the same day Fema was there according to the video on Current TV. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM "simply prohibit the firing of employees for refusal to pay dues or fees to an unwanted union" Not being able to fire employees for refusal to pay union dues is a terrible thing I guess, to a fat cat, gangster, union leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:30 AM You obviously know nuthin' about the history of the labor movement in America, Old Guy, which has brought about the standard of living that alot of folks, perhaps even yourself, have enjoyed... 14(b) was Boss Hog's nuclear option and he was able to get it into the Taft Hartley Act thru political manouverin' just as the Repubs in my life time have been tryin' to chip away at the New Deal... "Right to work" sounds so flowery and nice but when you take the pretty bonnet off it beneath it are lots of kids who go hungry at night... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM BTW, Old Guy, here's how 14 or your 22 right-to-work sates are doing in terms of poverty: Ranking in terms Percentage of of poverty poor people Louisiana 1 21.3 Mississippi 2 21.0 Alabama 6 17.8 Texas 7 17.0 Oklahoma 8 16.1 Arkansas 9 16.0 Arizona 10 15.4 South Carolina 12 15.1 North Carolina 13 14.7 Idaho 15 13.8 Tennessee 16 13.5 Georgia 19 13.4 Florida 20 13.1 Nevada 24 12.6 Other ways of looking at right-to-work states: *64% of them are in top half of the poorest states... *Of the top 25 poorest states, 56% of them are right-to-work states... *13 of the top 20 poorest states are right-to-work states... (Source: U.S. Census Bureau) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM Oh, why not??? 700... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM >"Thank you for calling the White House switchboard. Our new voice >activated system will help direct you to the proper office." > >"If you are calling to complain about the mishandling of the war in >Iraq , press one." > >"If you are calling to complain about the abuse of prisoners and the >White House's endorsement of torture, press two, and then say the name >of the torture site that you wish to complain about (and please note >for the sake of the voice mail system that it is pronounced Abu GRABE, >not Abu grahb)." > >"If you are calling to complain about illegal spying on American >citizens and the abuse of FISA laws, press 3, but do know that these >calls will be recorded." > >"If you are calling to complain about the disastrous mismanagement of >the hurricane Katrina recovery, please press 4, and your call will be >directed to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. If you wait for >more than 48 hours without anyone picking up the phone, hang-up and >send a letter. We have been assured that all letters will receive a >prompt reply within one year." > >"If you are calling regarding the administration's unwillingness to >enforce immigration law, press cinco, por favor, or direct any thanks >to your local chamber of commerce office, which can explain why we like >cheap labor that can't vote and where you may be able to find willing >illegal day laborers in your local area." > >"If you are Jack Abramoff or any Saudi prince, please call the private >line * it is always open." > >"If you are calling about the Medicare prescription debacle, please >press 6. If you are having a medical emergency, you should proceed >directly to your local emergency room, although please understand that >your health coverage may not pay for the visit and you can no longer >get out from under the bill by declaring bankruptcy." > >"If you are calling about the b allooning federal deficit or the recent >hike in the debt ceiling to $3 trillion, please press 7, unless you are >Bill Clinton calling to brag about the surpluses under your >administration, in which case we don't want to hear about it." > >"If you are calling to complain about the White House's efforts to >block stem cell research, please press 8, and then say the disease that >you are most concerned about that may ultimately be cured through >scientific research. If you are a scientist calling with new research >findings or important clinical data, please hang up, we don't want to >hear from you." > >"If you are calling to express concern about global warming and our >efforts to roll back environmental laws, please press 9, unless you are >a government scientist, in which case you are forbidden to talk without >first clearing it with the oil lobbyist we hired to screen and edit >your research. He can be reached at Exxon 4-2611." > >"If you are calling to complain about the President's efforts to >"privatize" social security, please press 1 and then the pound key, and >your call will be redirected to representatives at Merrill Lynch, who >will explain the virtues of putting all your savings in the stock >market." > >"If you are calling about the need for more prayer in public schools >or any other faith-based initiatives, please press 10 and Reverend >Falwell will be with you shortly." > >"If you are calling to lobby for more Supreme Court Justices who will >block a woman's right to choose, please stay on the line and the >President will be with you immediately." > >"If you are calling about all the tax breaks for the wealthy, press >*1 if you have ideas for more loopholes and are making more than a >million dollars per year; if you are earning less than a million per >year but have ideas for how you may help the wealthy, press *2; if you >are earning less than a million per year and ju st want to complain that >all the burden is now falling on you, please call back in a couple of >years. > >If you voted for President Bush and are now concerned that over 12% of >the U.S. population now falls below the poverty line while the top 1% >has wildly increased their wealth, please understand that we are not >laughing AT you*" > >"Press zero at any time if you would like to hear these options again. >Thank you for calling the White House. It is our pleasure to serve >you." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:31 PM So where does Virginia rank? If the right to work law is so bad, Why hasn't it drug Virginia down? I know where it has lead us. It has lead us to companies moving offshore. And this: Sleazy labor leaders live high on hog as members struggle to earn a weekly wage By DOUGLAS FEIDEN DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER I actually worked in a shop once that had an ex union business agent working there. He had embezzled money and taken bribes and could not work in a union shop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:08 AM Well, O.G.... With Fairfax and Loudoun Counties being the two rcihest counties in the US, Virginia does very well... But I can tell you that if you go to Richmond, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Bristol you'll find abject poverty with folks still working for less than $6 an hour... That's the effects of 14(b)... Having worked as a social worker in Ricmond for many years, I know this personally... Now back to Katrinagate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:05 PM Bobert can't say how much money the Bush administration should nave spent to prevent the death and destruction in New Orleans yet he keeps ragging about Bush cutting funding as if that is the cause. No amount of money would have prevented the destruction because it is a 10 to 20 year project to get the levees up to where they would withstand Katrina. The death was caused by the failure of the local government to evacuate the people as per their plan. Bobert says their plan was not funded. I say they had all of the rescources they needed to evacuate the people but they blew it. They piddled around worried about lawyers and what would happen to the tourist trade. You know like the Mayor in the movie Jaws? Despite the understanding of the Gulf Coast's particular vulnerability to hurricane devastation, officials braced for Katrina with full awareness of critical deficiencies in their plans and gaping holes in their resources. While Katrina's destructive force could not be denied, state and local officials did not marshal enough of the resources at their disposal... ...Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco –who knew the limitations of their resources to address a catastrophe—did not specify those needs adequately to the federal government before landfall. For example, while Governor Blanco stated in a letter to President Bush two days before landfall that she anticipated the resources of the state would be overwhelmed, she made no specific request for assistance in evacuating the known tens of thousands of people without means of transportation, and a senior state official identified no unmet needs in response to a federal offer of assistance the following day. The state's transportation secretary also ignored his responsibilities under the state's emergency operations plan, leaving no arm of the state government prepared to obtain and deliver additional transportation to those in New Orleans who lacked it, when Katrina struck. In view of the long-standing role of requests as a trigger for action by higher levels of government, the state bears responsibility for not signaling its needs to the federal government more clearly.... GWB blew it in the sense that he appointed incomptent people to manage the recovery. Here is what went wrong in a nutshell Bobert is going to be able to find a lot of stuff at that URL to prove his point but it also points out the failures of the locals. What I am trying to say is, why would Bobert try to put all the blame on one person when a lot of people are to blame? The reason is because Bobert has a personal grudge against GWB that affect his reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM Yes, Bobert can say how much money should have been allocated and spent... What was requested, for starters... Both FEMA and the Army Corpes of Engineers got shafted... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:05 AM How much is that Bobert and what would it have accomplished in a 10 to 20 year project? You ignore any shortcomings of the local government because you are biased. "The Orleans Levee District -- responsible for most flood control in the city and armed with a $40 million annual budget and nearly 300 employees -- had branched out over the years to build parks, marinas, a cash-strapped airport and a dock it leased to a casino gambling boat. Critics and some former board members say the board had lost sight of its original mission." http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05329/612494.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: freda underhill Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:19 AM Today is the one-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Not only that, it's the six-month anniversary of when President Bush found out about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:29 PM Give up, Old Guy... Askin' me to project how allocatin' a certain amount of requested money over a 10 to 20 year plan is just plain juvilinistic debating... It'd be like me askin' you to prove that George Bush actually believes in God 'or askin' you how many years you ahve left to live... But seein' as you are holdin' a very weak hand I guess that these hypothetical riddles is about all you have left... Like I said... Give up, man... You are making a cvomplete fool out of yourself with these little games... Next thing ya' know yer going to drag out the "angels on the head of a pin" argument... Sheese... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM If the question is so easy, answer it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM Only after you tell me how many angles can dance on the end of a pin... It is a rediculous question which has no definative answer as it hypthetical beyond proof... That's why I can the question juvinilistic... What we do know is that both FEMA and ther Army Corpes of Engineers were grossly underfunded by Bush and we do know that the levees were breached and we know that FEMA wasn't up to the task... These are the issues... Not yer childish umprovable riddles... Oh, BTW, prove that you exist, Old Guy.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:31 PM Where is the sign that says "THE BUCK STOPS HERE". It wasn't just a local or state problem, it was a national problem which traslated means it's was a federal problem. And it's still afederal problem. Lay it at the feet of anyone you'd like but it was up to the top leaders of the government that failed & their top leader why it's still failing. A year latter & it's still a disaster zone. If not for all the charities, the goodness & kindness of the public sector NO might as well as sunk into the sea & still may head hat way if something else comes along. The governemnt needs to put their backbone & shoulder into this disaster & stop blaming others & leaving the mess for others to clean up. The victims, the locals & their local & state governments & the general public can't do this they have been overwhelmed right from the start. It's not just a matter of opening up downtown New Orleans & the French Quarter for the tourists & the buniness folks that should've been that last priorty. It's the victims that needed help right from before the beginning & they are still being victimized & are still in need of help. The Federal Government is not only not willing to get fully behind this but they also don't appear to care enough nor does it appear after a years time that they yet to posses the capabilities to take these resonabilities & duties to task. I'm here to tell you that the government is still sound asleep on a chair in a shoolhouse class room. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: toadfrog Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM The problem is, Bush and his followers believe we should: 1. Let the market take care of it, or 2. Charity will take care of it, or 3. It's all the job of state and local govts. Don't blame FEMA (it shouldn't exist anyway). It isn't that Bush is incompetent. Actually, his ideology says, what happened with Katrina is what should happen when there is a disaster. The idea is, all those people in New Orleans brought their own problems on themselves by being poor. The ideology says, poor people have problems because they "lack self reliance," drink, engage in sex or are otherwise morally inferior. And the ideology serves the purpose of protecting a constituency, the "haves and have-mores" from paying taxes. That's why they put a political hack in charge of FEMA. They don't think the government should help ordinary people when there is a national disaster. Don't blame it on Bush's supposed incompetence. He isn't incompetent, and those who suppose he is will repeat their mistakes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:59 AM Well said. both Barry and toadfrog... Yes, Bush knew what he was doing when he used the dough that was supposed to go into disaster relief to fund his SHS and *his* war in Iraq... Yep, FEMA has been nuthin' but Bush's slush fund... And I wouldn't mind it as much if he's just come out and say "Screw all of you. I stole this job and if you don't like, screw you too!" But Bush duidn't do this. After 9/11 he pranced around the country like some proud peacock, pumped out his chest and said over and over and to anyopne who would listen, "It's my job to protect the American people." Here's the *gate* part of Katrina*gate*... Bush lied to us... Katriona proved it beyond any shadow of doubt... No, drunk frat boy hadn't done the heavy lifting it takes to be president... Quite the oppoisite... Yeah, rather than running around baosting how good a job he was doing he should have been working... But work has never interested Bush too much... That is perhaps why every business he has tried to run has either failed completely or sold off before Bush could kill it... I began this thread way back last October when I made several arguments that as time has marched on have shown to be correct arguments... In other words, Old Guy, et al, the truth is out there and if I can get it right, so will historians... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:21 PM Bobert: Your hatred is showing up in the form of rhetoric. The Gov of Louisiana was the one bragging: "I believe we are prepared," she said in Jefferson Parish on Aug. 27. "That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." By Lisa Myers & the NBC Investigative Unit Updated: 12:53 p.m. ET Oct. 11, 2005 Lisa Myers Senior investigative correspondent WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 — It was Gov. Blanco's first big disaster — and less than 48 hours before Katrina hit, she reassured the state. "I believe we are prepared," she said in Jefferson Parish on Aug. 27. "That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." Story continues below ↓ advertisement Though experts had warned it would take 48 hours to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco did not order a mandatory evacuation that Saturday. "We're going to pray that the impact will soften," she said. Blanco and the mayor waited until Sunday, Aug. 28 — only 20 hours before Katrina came ashore — to order a mandatory evacuation, the first of what disaster experts and Louisiana insiders say were serious mistakes by the governor. "It certainly appeared that there was a lot of indecisiveness exhibited by the governor in the early stages of the disaster," says Louisiana State Democratic Senator Donald Cravins. A key criticism: the governor's slowness in requesting federal troops. She told the president she needed help, but it wasn't until Wednesday, Aug. 31 that she specifically asked for 40,000 troops. That day, in a whispered conversation with her staff caught on camera, the governor appears to second-guess herself. "I really need to call for the military," Blanco tells an aide. "Yes you do, yes you do," is the reply. "And I should have started that in the first call," Blanco adds. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9613133/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:48 PM Yeah, Old Guy, but Blanco has released over 100,000 documents and notes to back up what she was doing before, during and after Katrina... Yer guy, however, is doing his usual of claiming "executive priviledge" to hide anything he thinks might be harmfull... And for the record: For the unmpteenth time, I don't hate George Bush... I hate his policies, his poor work ethic and his lieing... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:22 AM I took a look at a few of those 100,000 pages of documents, not 100,000 documents and found jack shit. Did you take the time to look at them? "And I should have started that in the first call," Blanco adds. The hurricane made landfall 6:10 AM Aug 29th. Blanko did not ask for "everything you've got", A real professional term in itself, until 8:00 PM Aug 29th. The critical time to evacuate was Saturday and Sunday Aug 27th and 28th. If federal help was needed for an evacuation it should have been asked for even before that. So because of the mayor and Governor draging their feet, the evacuation turned into a difficult rescue with many people dying. Because the rescue did not go well, you want to heap all of the blame on GWB and exonerate the local, incompetent government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Sep 06 - 08:19 AM You haven't answered why Bush won't come clean uin relweasing his documents and notes, Old Guy... And fir the record since when is "We need everything you've got" not part of her portfolio of documents... The Wsahington Post disagrees with you in it's article of December 4th, 2005 "Blanco Releases Katrina Records" by Joby Warrick, Spencer S. Hsu and Anne Hull... Tea, these professional journalist reviewed the released doecuments and according to them the sentence that you *claim* was not opart of the portfolio that included that request is in a memo to George Bush from Governor Blanco dated, August 29th... BTW, also in those documents is a complaint by Blanco on Sept. 2nd to the White House complaining that FEMA had not delivered on a promise to have buses to help with evacuation... Now why would Blanco have made a written complaint if FEMA had never made the promise??? Hmmmmmm??? That would have left the Bush apologists a major weakness in Blanco to attack... But they haven't attacked that specific so I can only assume that somewhere there is evidence that FEMA had made the promise... So, Old Guy, eiother you haven't taken time to review all the diocuments or the Bush apologist blog that you have read habve conviently left out some of the more damaging ones... Not too sure which one but I'd guess the later... Yeah, one thing that Bush apologists have become very adept at is leaving out parts of the story... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:02 PM The Gov. asked for 700 busses like they are hanging in bunches on grape vines. FEMA sent 100. Meanwhile where were the busses that belonged to the government down there? And just what documents were asked for and refused? My reading is not of blogs but CNN, NBC and such, even the WAPO when they tell the truth. Here are some documents for you to read about what the local government was up to during the disaster. You sure do like to make apologies for the local government in New Orleans. They only thing they did that you can point out is that they released 100,000 pages of documents that you mischaracterize as 100,000 documents. Take a look at this photo of busses belonging to the city taken on Aug 31 2005. These busses were not flooded and could have been used to evacuate at least some of the people from the Superdome or the convention center. The road was clear between the facilities. But no, "We need everything you've got", sit on your incompetent ass and whine to the federal governmet while your people suffer. Now blame that on GWB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:23 PM There's not even 50 buses in that picture & do you know what kind of buses they are & the shape they're in, No, but yyou have a picture & who's supposed to dive them? The School bus drivers who are trying to survive themselves? 700 were asked for, what happened? They sure had enough trailers sitting on standby that they left useless. The buck doesn't stop with a mayor or a governor it stops at the top. FEMA was to handle it, it was their baby, it was their job, it was that watch, it's a federal agency, it's the screw up of the federal government & who's in change? So Bozo who's been asleep at the wheel for far to long. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM The count is around 60 and there is another photo taken later that shows they moved around. That part of the city was not flooded. The evacuation plan for the city included using city owned busses to evacuate residents. It was not done. It was not even attempted. It was left to the Federal governmet by an incompetent local government. The smashed gate to the bus depot on Patterson Street in Algiers Point where Jabar Gibson broke in, took bus 0235, loaded it with evacuees, and drove to Houston. Nagin was arguing with residents and local officals about where to put the trailers. So they sat idle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 06 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM Those busses were used. They were used to evacuate people from Algiers [Nagin's neighborhood] that was not flooded while MSM had reporters wailing about the human deprivation, rapes and murders at the Superdome and Convention center across the river. Yes, those are the missing busses from the photo. Yes, that is a large group of people getting on the busses. Clearly, the busses were being used to evacuate people from Algiers. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/124259.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:26 PM So what, Old Guy... Eve4ry time you take the 1% of the story and blow it up like a big circus clown baloon you get this "Hay6, I got you" attitude... Problem is that in a mamoputh federal failure rather than look at the big, big picure you take yer little 1% and find solist in it... You conviently don't answer the questions and arguments I make but pick yer little !% and defend that turf as it is the entire enchilada... You have done this for going on 800 posts now and have yet to mount any rebuttal other than trying to divert attention away from reality thru yer little puzzles and yer little 1% of reality that you so dearly hold onto as if it's yer life raft... Problem is that you will not answer why Bush decided to gut FEMA and why he went around tellin' folks that everythingwas cvovered and they were protected when he knew they weren't... Gov. Blanco has made offered sufficient documents to show that she indeed expected more from FEMA but that is outside of yer 1% comfore zone... Wake the heck up, Old Guy... The rest of the folks hereare lookin' at the 99% where the real story is... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM Bobert tries to cover up for the incomptency of the local government by beating his hate Bush drum. Meanwhile in over 800 posts he cannot justify the actions or inactions of Blanco and Nagin. "she indeed expected more from FEMA" Did she get everything she wanted from Santa? "Send me everything you've got" Send me 10,000 busses? I would expect the local government to implement their own evacuation plan. As I have just illustrated 60 +- busses in working order were used to evacuate people from Nagin's unflooded neighborhood of Algiers while people in the Superdome and the Convention Center just across the river, accessable via unflodded streets, were suffering and dying. 60 busses might not have done the whole job but it could have helped the worst cases at least. But Bobert will not comment on that because it does not jive with his hate Bush agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:37 PM Fir the umpteeenth time, Old Guy, ****I don't hate George Bush****!!! Is that too difficult for you to understand??? What I hate are his policies, his arrogance, his lies and his world vision... If he weren't a president who is bungling up so many things and just a guy down the street, I'd prolly enjoy sittin' back wid him and a few chilly ones... Pretzels (wink, wink..) for him, of course... Now back to the buses... In the released documents and notes of Gov. Blanco there is a document to the White House complaining that the buses that FEMA had promised hadn't been delivered... Now if the priomise hadn't been masde in the 1st place do you think that, given the criticism that Bush has gotten, that Karl Rove wouldn't have gleefully used this as another of his patented "Ah-hah, gotcha's..." in order to divert attention away from Bush's failures??? I mean, we're dealing with common sense here, Old Guy... This ain't rocket suregy, 'er nuthin'... Perhaps you'd like to explain why else Gov. Blanco wouldn't have registered this complaint with the White House if the proimise of buses hadn't been made??? Yeah, jus' answer that one, will ya'??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:26 PM Maybe the promise was made and not fulfilled. Blanco *said* FEMA promised 500 busses. They asked for 700 and FEMA *only* sent 100. Did the 100 busses do the job? If busses were so critical, why didn't they use their own. More importantly, why didnt they use them to evacuate the poor people with no transportation before the city flooded as per their own evacuation plans? You use things like a alleged unfulfilled promise by FEMA to obfuscate the fact that the first responders did not do their job that they promised the people they would do. Asking for things is a game to government bureaucrats. You want $100,000 so you ask department X for $300,000 and you get $50,000. You actually only needed $25,000 so you have to piss away the extra or you won't get anything the next time if you return it. I am sorry Bobert but for every thing you blame on the GWB administration justifiably, there are more things to blame on the local government justifiably. You just don't want to hear it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:50 PM See, Old Guy, you can't answer a question without asking one... That is proof positive that you are on the defensive here... Let's back up fir a minute and look at why there was a National Response Plan to begin with... In certain catastrophies the local and state governments might be overwhelmed... Let me ask you this question??? Who was going to drive the buses??? The usual school bus drivers who in many parts of the country are moms with kids in school??? Or the recently retired guy??? Where did they live, Old Guy??? See where we are going here, don't ya??? Yeah, here we had a city with major problems and folks trying the best they could to just get the heck out and you expect, all of a sudden, for the bus-driver-factory to just crank out a couple hundred bus drivers that don't have families and kids they are trying to evacuate... This is why we have an organization like FEMA in the 1st place... Just think about it, my friend... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:11 AM Bobert: Seeing as questions make you uneasy because you don't want to answer them for fear of proving you are full of it, I will not ask any more. I will just make charges and not accept anything to the contrary like you do. Maybe that will make you happy. On the Science Channel there was a documentary called Engineering New Orleans. It is on several times this week. Maybe you could watch it and actually learn something if there is any room left in your crowded memory banks. http://science.discovery.com/tvlistings/series.jsp?series=25219&gid=0&channel=SCI For one thing it states that the levees or more accurately flood walls, couldn't have withstood a cat 1 hurricane because they were in a kind of soil that allowed them to flop over very easily. The city was a goner no matter how much money was spent on the levees so that kicks the legs out from under your GWB cut funding and caused the disaster charge. The city is sinking 1" per year while the sea level [and river level] is rising. The very act of building levees keeps the land from building up with silt to match the natural sinking due to decomposition of organic matter and it lets the soil dry out and sink even more. Sooner or later the city will have to be abandoned. "Who was going to drive the buses???" the same people that were driving the busses that were evacuating the people from Algiers. The same people that were going to dive the busses in their evacuation plan. ...C. Ray Nagin Mayor MISSION STATEMENT The Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:24 AM "To call an evacuation on Sunday morning when the storm was going to hit on Monday morning at 6 a.m. is just ... negligence," King said. "If he'd called it better than that he would have saved lives."City had evacuation plan but strayed from strategy By LISE OLSEN Houston Chronicle Cancer patient Earl Robicheaux, his immune system depleted by radical chemotherapy, lay in a hospital bed as Hurricane Katrina bore down on New Orleans. Trying to leave, he thought, seemed suicidal. But after four days in the hospital's reeking darkness, he escaped via a Black Hawk helicopter that landed on the roof of the University Hospital under heavy guard because of the threat of sniper fire. It was not the evacuation plan authorities had envisioned for its sick, its elderly and its poor. As the floodwaters recede, serious questions remain about whether New Orleans and Louisiana officials followed their own plans for evacuating people with no other way out. The mayor's mandatory evacuation order was issued 20 hours before the storm struck the Louisiana coast, less than half the time researchers determined would be needed to get everyone out. City officials had 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at their disposal but made no plans to use them to get people out of New Orleans before the storm, said Chester Wilmot, a civil engineering professor at Louisiana State University and an expert in transportation planning, who helped the city put together its evacuation plan. Instead, local buses were used to ferry people from 12 pickup points to poorly supplied "shelters of last resort" in the city. An estimated 50,000 New Orleans households have no access to cars, Wilmot said. State and local plans both called for extra help to be provided in advance to residents with "special needs," though no specific timetable was prepared. But phone lines for people who needed specialized shelters opened at noon Saturday — barely 30 hours before Katrina came ashore in Louisiana. Many people from New Orleans ended up staying home or using a "last resort" special needs shelter state authorities and the city health department set up at the Superdome. Those who made it out of town initially found limited space. The state of Louisiana provided shelter in Baton Rouge and five other cities for a total of about 1,000. In the city of New Orleans alone, more than 100,000 of the city's residents described themselves as disabled in a recent U.S. census. Early mistakes Hospitals were exempted from the mayor's mandatory evacuation order. But at least two public hospitals, loaded with more than 1,000 caregivers and patients, had their generators in their basements, which made them vulnerable in a flood. That violated the state's hurricane plan but had gone uncorrected for years because the hospitals did not have the money to fix the situation, a state university hospital official told the Chronicle. The consequences came to bear in the images hours and days later: Elderly people dying outside shelters and hospitals that were losing power and, finally, their patients. Now, hurricane evacuation experts around the country are asking why New Orleans failed to prepare for the flood scenario from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. "Everybody knew about it. There's no excuse for not having a plan," said Jay Baker, a Florida State University associate professor who is an expert in hurricane evacuations and is familiar with New Orleans hurricane studies. Tami Frazier, a spokeswoman for Mayor C. Ray Nagin, currently working out of Houston, refused to comment on direct questions this week or to answer several written questions sent via e-mail. She cited the need to focus on rescuing citizens and recovering bodies. Robicheaux, the cancer patient who was trapped in a downtown New Orleans hospital, said he thought the city "decided basically to let it ride." "When you're in a city like New York and there's a big snowstorm, you expect them to have plows. That's not the way it is here. There are no resources to stockpile supplies." Saturday evening, Hurricane Katrina had intensified to Category 4, with the possibility that it could strike land as a killer Category 5 storm. About 8 p.m., Mayor Nagin fielded an unusual personal call at home from Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, who wanted to be sure Nagin knew what was coming. Still, Nagin waited to issue a mandatory evacuation, apparently because of legal complications, said Frazier. She said the city attorney was unavailable for an interview to explain. But Kris Wartelle, spokeswoman for the attorney general of Louisiana, said state law clearly gives the mayor the authority to "direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area." "They're not confused about it. He had the authority to do it," Wartelle said. The mandatory evacuation order came at 10 a.m Sunday. Former Kemah Mayor Bill King, who has spent years trying to boost funding and organization for hurricanes planning in the Houston-Galveston area, said Nagin's decision to wait to order people out compounded the tragedy. "To call an evacuation on Sunday morning when the storm was going to hit on Monday morning at 6 a.m. is just ... negligence," King said. "If he'd called it better than that he would have saved lives." Special-needs evacuation The Chronicle reviewed Louisiana's Emergency Operations Plan, adopted in 2000. It calls for the establishment of specialized shelters for people with special medical needs. It also recommends that cities use public transportation to evacuate residents if necessary. The city of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan suggested people develop their own way to get out. "The potential exists that New Orleans could be without sufficient supplies to meet the needs of persons with special considerations, and there is significant risk being taken by those individuals who decide to remain in these refuges of last resort," it says. People who called for information on special needs shelters Saturday were directed to sites in Alexandria and in Monroe, La. — cities 218 and 326 miles away. The state scrambled to find 20 ambulances and some specialized vans to pick up fragile residents who needed rides. "There were transportation systems in place to take people out of New Orleans, which was the preferred solution," said Kristen Meyer, a spokeswoman for the Department of Health and Hospitals. But she's not sure how many got out. Some, including Lower 9th Ward resident Lois Rice, a paraplegic, became trapped in their homes when the floodwaters rose. She was rescued after using her air mattress to float into her attic. Florida, by contrast, for two decades has required counties to establish and maintain permanent databases of "special needs citizens," and arrange rides for people with no transportation. The state also has shelters established for myriad medical conditions. Florida emergency officials agree that last-minute planning simply doesn't work. "Unless you planned in advance, it would be a catastrophe," said Guy Daines, a retired Florida emergency manager who is considered an expert in specialized evacuations. In New Orleans, many people with special medical needs ended up at the last resort shelter in the Superdome. New Orleans' own special needs evacuation plan, however, says that shelter is "NOT TO BE INTERPRETED AS A GUARANTEE OF SAFETY, and the City of New Orleans is not assuring anyone protection from harm within the facilities that are being offered or opened for this purpose." "When I saw them loading special needs people into the Superdome the day before the storm, my heart was breaking," said Patti Moss, a Texas nursing professor who has developed a tracking system for such vulnerable citizens here. "They were in the path of the storm." Two of the city's hospitals dedicated to serving the city's poor, University and Charity hospitals, quickly lost power, according to Leslie Capo, a spokesman for the Louisiana State University health sciences department. After days in the dark, it took the National Guard, the U.S. Army and a Black Hawk to rescue Robicheaux. "We had been kind of left on our own and I thought, 'This is a fine thank you,' " he said. Planning for the poor In storm-vulnerable Jefferson Parish and New Orleans, the American Red Cross worked before the storm to promote a "buddy system" to encourage everyone without cars to find rides through churches and other organizations. But in an interview published July 18 in New Orleans City Business, Jefferson Parish hurricane planner Walter Maestri insisted New Orleans needed to do much more for those who didn't have cars. "New Orleans has a significantly larger population without means of transportation, so it's a much bigger problem for the city. ... The answer is very simple — evacuation," he said. As Hurricane Katrina approached Sunday morning, New Orleans officials advertised city buses would be used to pick people up at 12 sites to go to the "last resort" shelters. It's unclear how many buses were used. Planners decided not to use any of the New Orleans school buses for early evacuation, Wilmot said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Sep 06 - 08:39 PM Well, Old Guy, just for starters, there are engineers who disagree with your Discovery Channel... And a lot of them are career engineeres who work for the Army Corpes of Engineers who propsed maintaince budgets prior to Katrina... These budgetes were funded by Bush at 20% or less... Now, this shouldn't be rocket surgery here but anyone with some level of understanding of maintanence programs should suspect that if the guy tells you it's gonna take a hundred bucks to fix somethin' and you give him 17 bucks and tell him to do the best he can with it that somethin' ain't gonna get done right... I don't even think this is questionable... Maybe you do... Maybe the Discovery Channel does but most folks who live in the real world don't... Now, had Bush chosen to fund the requests then we there would cwertainly be a lot less "gate" in Katrinagate... But he didn't... He was perhaps too busy with his politicin' and PR crap about "protecting the American people" to actuallyu "walk the walk"... But plenty of talk, taht much is fir sure... Lastly, if Discovery Channel is sayin' that N.O. wouldn't have withstoof even a Cat 1 storm with full funding of Army Corpes of Engineers then I would expect that they have found some so-called "don't-worry-be-happy" engineers cut from the same cloth of Bush's so-called scientists who think that global warmin' is some kinda political trick being perpetrated against Bush and his boyz... And lastly, Old Guy... I haven't ver backed away from your or anyone elses questions so get off yer high horse on that one... Just quit yer little sophmorish debating terick of answering one question after another with a question of yer own... It really weakens yer positions... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 08 Sep 06 - 09:26 PM Hi Bobert I tried that on repairing my chimney. The bricky said it wuld coast 400 dollars, I gave him $40. When the 1st freeze came I tried to light the fire but the the wood was wet & when I looked up chimney I saw that the inside of the walls above the roof was coated over in ice I called him & he said he did his best but there just was enough left of to buy any mortar & even if there was it wouldn't have covered the cost to lay them it. SO hey says "when the ice thaws watch out for the 1st blow the bricks will probably all come down". This is a lot like Bush's "No Child Left Behind" act. It's the fault of the parents, teachers, principals, the town, the state, the Governor, the Mayor, even Congress who passed it & lastly the kids. But it's NOT Bushes fault when he under cuts it & won't grant the money asked & promised. SINK OR SWIM has, is & will be his continued policy & that's what happened. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM Yeah, Barry, if it ain't a shiney new war or a campaign donor gettin' greased Bush writes checks like man with no arms... Tell ya what, I'm gettin' real tired of payin' taxes to this guy to waste... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:53 PM Bobert: You are still maneuvering around the fact that the state and local governmnet did not order a mandatory evacuation Saturday morning like they should have and they did not follow their own plan. And if a chimney project takes 10 to 20 years, how much money would take to do it in 5 years?? You can complain I keep going back to the same question but all ya have to do is answer it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:59 PM This looks like is from tha artical you got the 17% number from: "If the Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, there is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in a much better position to remove the water [after the flooding] on the streets once the pumps start working," says Hunter Johnston, a lobbyist for Johnston and Associates who worked to secure the money. It is too early to tell, however, whether the additional funding would have prevented the levee breaches and overruns that have flooded New Orleans. Scientists, journalists and public officials have been warning for decades that New Orleans could not withstand a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. Even SELA, which was started in the mid-1990s after flooding caused billions in damage, was designed to protect against smaller storms, though planners said it would reduce damages of "larger events." "If you had engineered everything in America for a Category 5 hurricane, you could not have built anything," said Jimmy Hayes, a former Republican congressman from Louisiana, who now lobbies for federal funding. "There is never enough money." According to Michael Zumstein, a Corps official working to drain New Orleans, both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle. "It's just the law of physics, that's all," he said, noting that the system was designed to withhold a slow-moving Category 2 or a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a Category 4 storm when it hit land Monday morning. He said an unexpected break at the 17th Street Canal occurred 700 feet south of a bridge where the Corps recently completed a troubled construction project. Flooding also occurred on the east side of New Orleans, in the St. Bernard Parish, an area that environmentalists have long warned would be susceptible to flooding because of a poorly designed canal built in the 1960s that joins the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico. Since 1998, local politicians have been demanding that the so-called Mississippi River Gulf Outlet be closed, in part because it was allowing saltwater to destroy marshland, increasing the danger of a storm surge. Both the Clinton and the Bush administrations have been slow to respond to those demands, and earlier this week, the storm surge topped levees, flooding the parish, said Zumstein. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Sep 06 - 08:59 AM Oh contriare, Oldster... First of all, the "gate" in Katrinagate isn't about whether or not a fully funded 20 year program would have or would not have protected NO from a Cat 4 or Cat 5 storm or even if it would have protected NO from an occasional thunderstorm... You keep going back to this same red herring as if it is the Holy Grail but it really has nuthin' to do with the Bush failures... And, in case you have not been keeping up, Katrina has long been demoted to a fast moving Cat 3 storm which, depending on which engineer one happens to have in his corner is something that a fully funded maintenace program might have held back... No one can say beyond a xshodow of doubt one way or another... What we do know, and this is why the "gate" in Katrinagate is: 1. Bush gutted FEMA. 2. Bush gutted the Army Corpes of Engineers maintance budget. 3. Bush ignored his own National Response Plan. 4. Bush ignored Michael Brown's warnings that thwe "big one" was coming. 5. Bush ignored Gov. Blanco's requests for federal help. 6. The Bush administration didn't order federal resources until 36 hours after Katrina left NO. 7. Bush had to be flown over the area just so that he could believe that Katrina wasn't some practical joke that folks were playin' on him. Yeah, Oldster, Bush can run but you can't hide... He absolutely blew it... And now he's been caught... This ain't about Nagin 'cause this was a regional disaster and the National Response Plan orders federal intervention in regional disasters... Bush had plenty of warnings... Historians will get this one right no matter how hard the Bush apologists work at their revisionism... The facts are right here in plain sight... Ain't no burying 'um... Ain't no circumventin' 'um... Ain't no hidin' 'um... In the words of Walter Cronkite, "That's the way it is." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Sep 06 - 11:41 PM Democrats demanded the formation of DHS. Democrats used GWBs reluctance to form DHS as talking point in their campaign. Democrats then demanded that FEMA be included in DHS, thereby weaking their capabilities. New Orleans and Louisiana Government are rife with corruption. Local Governments mismanaged money for levee maintenence and construction. Mayor Nagin ignored their own evacuation plan. Mayor Nagin called for a mandatory evacuation 20 hours before thew hurricane struck. Eeven after the call for mandatory evacuation he did not evacuate people who had no transportation. Nagin said that the governor had asked for 24 hours to think over a decision when time was a luxury that no one, especially refugees, had. Blanco's call for help (we need averything you have) were not specific and came too late. Bush's reduction in the budget was not what caused the flooding. The very same article that Bobert got his "measly" 17% from stated the leves would have failed even with full funding. "both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle." Poor levee (flood wall) construction was what lead to the breaks and flooding and they could not have withstood a Cat 1 huirricane. The flooding caused people who were not addressed by the late, not as per plan evacuation to die. Bobert uses rhetoric as a crutch for lack of factual content. Bobert refuses to collect information from any "news" source other than the Washington Post. If you point Bobert to something that might expand his horizons, he does not even look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Sep 06 - 11:50 PM Mr Bobert: If FEMA had not been incorporatd into DHS, would the city have been flooded and would people have died? ___ Y____ N If GWB had not cut the Army Corp Of Engineers budget, would the city have been flooded and would people have died?? ___ Y____ N If Mayor Nagin had called an evacuation on Saturday morning and followed their own evacuation plan to get everybody out, would people have died in the flooding? ___ Y____ N If Blanco had called for help earlier, would help have arrived in time? ___ Y____ N |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 AM First of all, Democrats did not "demand" that FEMA be either demoted or gutted... That is what Old Guy wished had happened so that his argument would hold up but that's not true... In other words: False... And what difference does it make if the the DHS was an idea that was pushed by the Dems??? This is another typical red herring that has nuthin' to do with Katrinagate... Oh Lousiana is rife with corruption??? Have you taken a look at the Halliburton/Bectel/Exxon-Mobil/Merck?etc owned Bush administartion??? Makes all the states combines look like a Boy Scout troop... Since when is "send everything you have" being made the day that Katrina was just making landfall, too late??? Date of request: August 29th... Another false Old Guy arguement... Lets see what othefr outright falsehoods there are in Old Guy's list of particulars... A fully maintained levee system couldn't have protected against a Cat 1 storm: Which global-warmin'-ain't-happening engineer has said that, Old Guy??? You must have had to dig real deep to find him or her... Talk about rhetoric!!! Phew, here we are pushing 800 posts and the original positions I put forth from spending a week in Google searching and over a 100 pages of articles from over 20 different sources and here Old Guy thinks it's mje that doesn't have the facts??? Well, all I can say is, "Don't Bogart that joint, my friend.." you are so smokes up that you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on yer old Guy arse... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM "that's not true... In other words: False. John Kerry campain ad: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." If FEMA had not been incorporatd into DHS, would the city have been flooded and would people have died? ___ Y____ N Brown said that, on the day before the storm hit, he asked Blanco and Maj. Gen. Bennett Landreneau, head of the state's National Guard, what resources they needed. "The response was like, 'Let us find out,' and then I never received specific requests for specific things that needed doing," Brown told The New York Times last week. "Which global-warmin'-ain't-happening engineer has said that, Old Guy??? " Watch the discovery channel documnetary Engineering New Orleans and you will see. Flood walls toppled over from the force of high water. they were built in light clay and should have gone much deeper. In the words of Michael Zumstein, a Corps official, "both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, EVEN IF FUNDED, could handle." The documentary acknowledged that sea level was rising so it did not deny global warming. And Bobert is the one with the mouldy old stash box, not I. ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:08 PM Click here Bobert and you can hear about the failure of the levees |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:57 PM You made the statement that Dems ***demanded*** that FEMA be demoted, oldster... You ready to admit that you are wrong on this one??? As for what Brown was doing, does old Guy deny that he was trying desperately to get his boss on board in mobilizing resources??? No, Michael Brown was on the phone two days before the hurrican hit landfall tellin' Bush that this one was going to be the "big one" and askin' that Bush take it seriously in terms of a federal response... That was Saturday, the 27th, Old Guy, but Bush was intent on finishin' out his vacation and headin' out to California for some politicing... As for your link to the levee system, I'll read it later since it's probably the same old car4p... You know, some so-called engineer who Fox has found in a bar that disagrees with the rest of the engineering community... The guy probably still believes the earth is flat and that globval warming is a joke but I will read it and get back to you later... Maybe much later since I'm getting packed to head down to North Carolina for 5 or 6 days to help my sister-in-law do some work on a cabin and then play a party this Saturday... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM That NC Cabin gig sounds like fun. New York Times: Democrats were among the original and leading proponents of a cabinet-level DHS http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjYxZjI3N2Q1NTc3MWU1Yjk0MjZiZjc1ZWY5MWRjMjI= After 9/11, Democrats demanded that the federal government take over airport security. I'm sure their motives were wholly public-spirited, but it may not have escaped their attention that federalizing airport security would expand the ranks of their supporters in the public-sector unions. Republicans objected, but the Dems prevailed. To prevail, though, the Democrats had to rebut the GOP's best argument: the fear that civil service rules would prevent the government from ever firing an inept screener. No problem!-said the Dems at the time. Obviously people in vital front-line positions like homeland security have to be subject to strict discipline. Six months later, the Dems proposed the creation of a vast new Homeland Security department. Many Republicans doubted the wisdom of regrouping departments rather than reforming them. Surely it matters less whether the Coast Guard reports to the Secretary of the Treasury or the Secretary of Homeland Security than whether it is fit and ready for its new role? But Democrats insisted. The policy case for the new department might be weak, but the political case was overwhelming. The Democrats might be divided over military action in Iraq and a crackdown on terrorist support groups here at home, but they can always unite on the need for another gigantic bureaucracy. And again, the Republicans gave way |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM Your source is not ***news*** but ***editorial*** comment, Old Guy... That don't cut it... BTW, I use ***news*** sources and can't find any cerdible ***news*** source that supports yours, or your editorial writers, claim that the Dem "demanded" that FEMA either be demoted or gutted... This is the issue here, not airport security or the size of the bureaucracy... Ya' gotta keep up with the facts and the argument, Oldster, and quit this wanderin' off course... ***grin*** Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM Geeze Old Guy, do you get it backwards & jumbled, sometimes. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:52 PM Bobzilla back for more? Did ya miss me? DHS and making FEMA part of DHS was the brainchild of the Democrats. So you are saying FEMA can be put under a brand new agency and shre resources with 22 other agencies with out loosing any effectiveness? Are you saying that FEMA would have been ineffective even if Democrats had not demanded that it me made part of DHS? If that's not the problem, why are Democrats saying to make It a separate agency again? Stupak Calls Again for F.E.M.A. Removal From D.H.S. WASHINGTON – Congressman Bart Stupak (D-Menominee) said the mismanagement and fraud related to Hurricane Katrina cited recently by the U.S. House and Senate are additional examples of why the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) should be removed from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and made into an independent cabinet-level agency. "Hurricane Katrina and her aftermath killed 1,321 people. It's estimated that about 2 million people were displaced and more than $150 billion in damage was caused," Stupak said. "Testimonies from management, witnesses and even staunch supporters of the President are calling it as they see it – the Administration had the information they needed to prevent much of the outcome and failed miserably." In September 2005, immediately following the devastation caused by Katrina and the subsequent mismanaged response, Congressman John Dingell (D-Dearborn) introduced legislation to remove FEMA from under DHS. Stupak signed onto the bill stating that under the proposed legislation disasters, like Hurricane Katrina, would be better managed by an independent agency focused solely on emergency response and assistance. The bill would move FEMA out from under DHS to an independent department of its own where the top executive would have cabinet-level accountability and report directly to the President. The bill would also create two deputy administrators; one would be assigned to man-made disasters and the other assigned to natural disasters. Each would be required to have significant experience related to their positions. Dingell critiqued DHS for "shifting FEMA's focus and funding to terrorism at the expense of natural disaster management." Last month, Stupak toured devastated parts of New Orleans and Southern Mississippi. In his role as Ranking Member of the Energy and Commerce Committee's Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, a hearing was held in New Orleans on the status of health care since Hurricane Katrina. "Even now, almost six months after Hurricane Katrina there is not a viable health care delivery system in New Orleans where emergency room care means waiting in an ambulance for up to four hours or in the emergency waiting room for nine hours. The health care delivery system in the gulf region remains broken," Stupak said. Stupak continued, "If a picture is worth a thousand words, visiting the devastated area is worth ten thousand words. It's sad to think that some of the deaths could have been avoided with better planning, coordination and notification. We need to separate FEMA from DHS and within the new FEMA we need leaders with specialized experiences with natural disasters not political opportunities." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:40 PM Duhhhhhh, Oldster... I don't think anyone is arguing that FEMA should continue to be a demoted and underfunded program... So what is your point exactly??? Why not go back to tyrying to find a credible ***news*** source that backs up yer argument that the Dems "demanded" that FEMA be demoted and gutted... This is the heart of the issue... And, no, I didn't miss you one bit 'cause between my wife and her sister's family they had me workin' 'round the clock right up to Saturday and then I had to play music at their big party... I'm beat... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:03 AM Bobert: It seems to me that you were claiming that FEMA could have been in corporated into DHS with no problem if it was done right and that was not the problem. I said if that is not the problem, why are Democrats wanting it to be changed back like it was. Which news source do you consider credible and why does it have to come from a news source? They can slant things in different ways. Do you want one that slants it your way? I am going by statements by democrats like: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." Lieberman, Specter, and then-Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL) proposed new legislation on April 11, 2002, to create a cabinet-level Department of National Homeland Security, Joe Lieberman's bill 1449 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:31 AM Oops 1449 was by Bob Graham. 2452 was Joe Lieberman. S.1449 Title: A bill to establish the National Office for Combatting Terrorism. Sponsor: Sen Graham, Bob [FL] (introduced 9/21/2001) Cosponsors: Sen Bayh, Evan [IN] - 9/21/2001 Sen Collins, Susan M. [ME] - 4/18/2002 Sen Durbin, Richard [IL] - 9/21/2001 Sen Feinstein, Dianne [CA] - 9/21/2001 Sen Mikulski, Barbara A. [MD] - 9/21/2001 Sen Nelson, Bill [FL] - 9/21/2001 Sen Rockefeller, John D., IV [WV] - 9/21/2001 S.2452 Title: A bill to establish the Department of National Homeland Security and the National Office for Combating Terrorism. Sponsor: Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. [CT] (introduced 5/2/2002) Cosponsors Sen Cleland, Max [GA] - 5/17/2002 Sen Durbin, Richard [IL] - 5/7/2002 Sen Graham, Bob [FL] - 5/2/2002 Sen Reid, Harry [NV] - 5/7/2002 Sen Specter, Arlen [PA] - 5/2/2002 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:36 AM Sen Lieberman's not a dem. never was. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:43 AM No, Oldster, what I have been arguing for almopst a year now is that Bush gutted FEMA, used it as not much more than a slush fund to divert money to the DHS and his war in Iraq... And while he was doing this he was going around the country boasting that it was his job to "protect the American people"... What Katrina showed is that Bush hadn't walked-the-walk... The American people weren't all that protected afterall... Had Katrina not been a natural disaster but a terrorists attack Bush would have been in no better position to "protect the American people" than he was when Katrina hit... Bush was bluffing and praying that nuthing would come along that would expose his weak flank... This might have been excusable had it not been for 9/11 when it became apparent that the federal governemnt needed to be better prepared to handle disasters... But what Katrina showed is that not only was the federal governemnt in no better position to respond to disasters but it was less positioned to do so!!!... Hmmmmmm??? How could this be??? I mean, we were told that 9/11 was a wake up call, weren't we??? From what we saw in the federal response was that Bush had snoozed thru the poast 9/11 period... Now we have millions of right wingers, who probably have no other reason to support Bush other than the tax cuts they enjoy, trying to make Bush's failure's in being prepared for Katrina, a Democrtaic proplem??? I still don't get it, Old Guy... Amd please spare us your ***unsubstantiated opinion*** that the Dems "demanded that FEMA be gutted and demoted"... That dog just don't hunt... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:36 PM No Bobert: You are ignoring the fact that DHS and making FEMA part of DHS is a brainchild of the Democrats. If they had kept their whiny mouiths shut, FEMA would have stayed the same. You try to blame the faisco solely on one person because you are too blinded with hate to see anything anybody else did. Because of your insecurity, you have to have a boogey man to blame. Sure Bush screwed up but it was some screw ups in a series of screw ups by Democrats, Republicans, state and local government, corrupt local officials andcorrupt companies that goes back years and years. You start your research wherever it is most convenient for you and stop it when you have reached you pre planed conclusion. Then the steel doors on your brain slam shut and that is it. Your mind is like a bunker that you can take refuge in while the truth is beating on the door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM Hey, Oldster, I'm not the one who is insecure here... I have made the strong case and all you have done is nipped at my ankles like my grandmother's toothless and useless little flea bit hound while you absolutely refuse to accept the fact that it was Bush who gutted FEMA... In the words of Bruce Springsteen, "Sooner or later it all comes down to money..." And Bush wouldn't spend it... He underfunded the Army Corpes of Engineers on basic maintanance on the levee system... That is a fact that you seem not willing to accept as you have challenged me to prove that had Bush funded it fully that the levees wouldn't have been breached... That is a sophmorish rebuttal and any thinking person who has been around knows that, irregardless of the differences of opinions among engineers on the subject, it impossible to prove one way or another... I could just as easily ask you to prove that had the $100M annual request been fully funded in the 2 years prior to Katrina that the levees would have been breached... See??? You are not debating wityh any level of logic when you play the "prove it" game... The fact is that Bush funded the Army Corpes of Engineers at 17% and the levees were breached by what was no greater than a Cat 3 storm when it hit NO... Now as for FEMA... Same sophmorish arguments except you have now quit making the false statement that the Dems "demanded" that FEMA be demoted or gutted... That's a good first step for ya', Oldster, 'cause the main problem with yer arguments is that you are in serious denial of the facts... Then when you get all flustered you play the "hate" card... How many tuimes have tyou made the statement that I hate Buash??? I've told you over and over that I don't hate Bush... I hate a ot of his policies... There is a big difference... Yet you continue to pull out this old dog and ask it to hunt.... Well, for the umpteenth time, I don't hate George Bush but I sho nuff hate the job he is doing... What else??? Oh yeah, research... Hey, at least I'm doing it rather than dragin' editorial writer's opinions into the debate as being factual... Everything I've presented as facts are from actual "news" sources... Might of fact, in my Katrina folder there isn't one single editorial, not one single blog source... Nope, everything I've used in making my arguments is verifiable and based on the real facts... Talk about closed mind, Old Guy??? Whew!!! You wrote the book, my friend... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM Hey Bobert: I have never disputed any of your findings, only your conclusion. Something is making you blind to the facts. If it is not hatred, what is it. Do you agree that if the Democrats had kept their mouth shut, FEMA would have been left alone? You know it is true but you can't agree so you shift the focus on the fact that the result of their whining was less than satisfactory because of Bush. If the Democrats think FEMA could function poperly under DHS, why do they want to separate it again? The reason is it can't function the way it did when it is one of 22 agencys under FEMA. I come up with a satement by and official of the corps of engineers that even if bush had funded them 100% the levees would have failed. You ignore it and you just go back to harping that the levees faild because GWB underfunded the ACOE. Do you know more than the officials of the ACOE? There was a documentary that studied the failures from an engineering standpoint. I directed you to it. You did not pay any attention. It said in essence that the city was doomed, is still doomed, will always be doomed and it will have to be abandoned someday. It went into great detail about the soil and construction but you cannot be bothered with details. So just keep repeating over and over on about Bush and Brownie and all the paper you printed out ETC. Your conclusion is still wrong. Your research was objective and not subjective. Your objective is to heap it all on Bush. Ooooh that makes you feel good. All the while you and your business are benefiting form the economic climate created by the Bush administration after the bursting of the bubble during the Clinton administration. I could understand if your whining if your net worth was shrinking or your business was doing poorly. I recently talked to a man that owns a millwork company and he told me he has never seen such a good economy. To put it into his words "Business is better than I have ever seen it" Do you agree with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:10 AM Who sends a budget to Congress, Oldster??? Who is responsible for spending allocated budgetary funds??? Need a hint??? (Rhymes with "tush" and has been know to pass out from eatin' pretzels...) You see, this ain't about who answers to whom in the organizational chart but who is funded and staffed to perform the job that they were initially organized to do... You have gotten yourself way bogged down in ***organizational-chart-speak*** to the point that you no longer can see there is any relationship with an organizations ability to perform with it's funding??? Tell ya' what you need to do, Oldster... Go to yer bank today and withdraw all yer dough and transfer it to me fir safe keepin'... Then I'll come an' check on you in a few months an' see how you been doing without any money... Get it now??? As for engineers... Yeah, there are engineers that say that a fully funded maintanence program wouldn't have made a difference and another group of engineers who say it would... This is not provable one way or another yet you continue to side with the ***wouldn't-have-changed-anything*** group as if they are the Holy Grail... BTW, there are also scientists who say that global warmin' ain't happenin'... As fir my net worth??? Actually I have made no real gain since Bush came into office because health insurance has gone up over 200%... That alone has eaten up my gains and now it looks as if the real estate market is going to take a hit and that's gonna chomp away at it further... So to answer your question: No, I'm not better off with Bush but just treding water... As fir yer friend with the millwork company??? Ask his workers if ***they*** are "better off"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM Life is good = treadin water ????????????? How much did health insurance go up before Bush came into office? Here's a chart. What happened to his attempts to limit medical liability to keep health care costs down? ..The U.S. House of Representatives passed reform legislation last year, but failure to gain cloture on repeated attempts in the Senate blocked its passage, providing the personal injury lawyers lobby a major victory in the 108th Congress. "The President made it clear that he and the new Congress have a clear directive from Americans: put an end to runaway jury awards and frivolous lawsuits which force hospitals, doctors, and nursing homes to abandon their practices and patients," said Thomas. "Voters want healthcare access. They want it affordable. And the reforms we support -- the reforms the President is calling for -- are estimated to reduce the cost to Medicare by as much as $50 billion per year and to private payers by more than $100 billion per year." Medical malpractice awards have tripled since 1994, driving medical liability insurance premiums up over 500 percent and forcing hospitals and healthcare providers nationwide to close their doors. As a result, increasing numbers of American's are losing access to healthcare due to the shortage of physicians, especially in higher-risk specialties such as obstetrics... More here |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:14 PM Another Old Guy ***red herring***... Actually, the added costs of health insurance from all personal injury lawsuits is 2%... Compare that to the othyer 198% increase an' you have adopted yet another dog that won't hunt... But it it makes you feel all warm and fuzy to blame Bush's failures in not being prepared to "protect the American people" from a disater on trial lawyers, then have it... Let's see... First it was the Dems fault... Now it's trial lawyers.... Who will it be tomorrow??? Doctor Spock??? Donald Duck??? George Soros??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:34 PM Bobert: You are the one that brought health insurance into the discussion. Now you object to the topic calling it a red herring. You threw in the red herring. As you can see from the chart. Health insurance was climibng under the Clinton administration. It has risen an average of 13.3% for the last nine years. It is another example of your blame it on Bush agenda. Depending on which trial lawyer organization you find they calim it is only 1 or 2 percent. Do ya think thay have a dog in the fight? Yep, their whole livelyhood depends on it, By the way I got two ex union bros in law who have been waiting 15 years or so for a big class action settlement on asbestos. They haven't gotten a dime but the lawyers are doing OK. There ain't a damned thing wrong with either one of them. The suit is about the possibility that they might develop something. Meanwhile the people that are really sick from asbestosis can't get a dime because the lawyers have it all tied up for their own benefit. What a bunch of vultures. Addressing the New Health Care Crisis: Reforming the Medical Litigation System to Improve the Quality of Health Care U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Office of the Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation March 3, 2003 ...Americans spend far more per person on the costs of litigation than any other country in the world. The excesses of the litigation system are an important contributor to "defensive medicine"--medical treatments provided for the purpose of avoiding litigation. Doctors' insurance premiums are increasing at a rapid rate, particularly in states that have not taken steps to make their legal systems function more predictably and effectively. Some doctors cannot obtain insurance despite having never had a single malpractice judgment or even faced a claim. As multimillion-dollar jury awards have become more common in recent years, these problems have reached crisis proportions. This is a threat to health care quality for all Americans. Increasingly, Americans are at risk of not being able to find a doctor when they most need one. Doctors have given up their practices, limited their practices to patients who do not have health conditions that are more likely to lead to lawsuits, or have moved to states with a fairer legal system where insurance can be obtained at a lower price. In addition, excessive litigation is impeding efforts to improve quality of care. Hospitals, doctors, and nurses are reluctant to report problems and participate in joint efforts to improve care because they fear being dragged into lawsuits, even if they did nothing wrong. This broken system of litigation also is raising the cost of health care that all Americans pay, through out-of-pocket payments, insurance premiums, and taxes. Judgments for very large amounts of non-economic damages in a small proportion of cases and the settlements they influence are driving this litigation crisis. At the same time, most injured patients receive no compensation. The current litigation system hurts everyone--injured patients and Americans seeking high-quality care. The only ones who benefit are those who operate the system--particularly the trial lawyers who bring these cases and those who defend them. Some states have already taken action to squeeze the excesses out of the litigation system. But federal action, in conjunction with further action by states, is essential to help Americans get high-quality care when they need it, at a more affordable cost... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM Bobert: It is worse than I thought. The Bush initiative that you discredited was to put caps on malpractice law suit non economic awards. The total costs added to health insurance is more than just the awards. The insurance is rising and it causes doctors to quit thae high risk practices and order more tests and proceedures for fear of frivilous lawsuits. This is causing your health insurance costs to go up. Here is a chart showing how malpractice insurance in Virginia went up 39% in 2001 and 51% in 2002 or 90% total. In California, which has a cap on non economic loss awards, it went up 20% in 2001 and 20% in 2002 or 40% total. All Bush wanted to do is the same thing that has already been done in California. I hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about your premiums. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:17 PM You are confusing cost of premiums for mal-pratcice insurance with the actual costs in the increase in the cost of health insurance for the conumer... But nice try... It is estimated that only 2% of the increase in health insurance and health care costs are attributed to law suits... In the year 2000 I paid $360 a month for the same basic Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan that now is hovering at right under $900 a month... And both me and the P-Vine are healthy, non smokers, etc... You do the math, Old Guy... According to the Wes Ginny Slide Rule of the $540 increase in costs of health insurance, about $15 bucks went toward law suits and the remaining $525 went to higher costs of health care... Like I siad, another Old Guy partisan red herring... Why won't you died in the wool Repubs answer me why health care has gone up over 100% under Bush witrh out having to beat down lawyers who account for less than 2% of the increase... Yeah, where the other 98% going??? Answer me that one... Yeah, there a re alot of other small businessmen who would love to hear your answer, too... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 23 Sep 06 - 12:11 AM So sorry Bobert but your favorite and only source of news, The El Pinko WAPO says you are wrong: Dispelling Malpractice Myths By William R. Brody Sunday, November 14, 2004; Page B07 ..Myth No. 4: Malpractice costs are not a big deal -- they amount to less than The number sounds insignificant until you stop to consider that U.S. health care spending was a staggering $1.66 trillion in 2003 -- so we are talking of costs on the order of $16 billion to $32 billion. In the case of Johns Hopkins Medicine, malpractice premiums as a percentage of physicians' total income have risen threefold over the past four years. In 2001 malpractice premiums were about 3 percent of total physician income at Johns Hopkins. They are nearly 10 percent today -- and growing. The irrationality of our current medical justice system leads to the practice of "defensive medicine," in which doctors try to stave off lawsuits by ordering more tests than are medically necessary. Got a headache? You are as likely to get a CAT scan as a couple of aspirin. The added costs of defensive medicine are estimated at $50 billion to $100 billion per year... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 23 Sep 06 - 08:21 PM Bobert: I am backin off of my claim that the Dems demanded that FEMA be made part of DHS because I can't find any proof. I still think I saw some articles to that effect. But I am still claiming that Dems demanded the creation of DHS and Fema couldn't have been made part of DHS if there was no DHS. Now getting back to the doomed levees or more accurately flood walls in New Orleans: Here is an article in NOLA or the Times Picayune, which doesn't cut anybody a lot of slack, about how sheet pilings, corrugated metal they drive down and pour a wall on top, 105 feet deep did not keep the walls from leaning over. I am going to spare you the anguish of cutting and pasting it here but please read subjectively it and tell me what you think: LIKE PUTTING BRICKS ON JELL-O'Everyone knows New Orleans sits on a former swamp. But floodwall designs apparently didn't take into account just how deep our mucky soil extends. When Katrina's intense pressure bore into the weak soils, the walls barely had a chance. Wednesday, November 09, 2005 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 06 - 09:32 PM Ahhhh, Old Guy.... It don't matter to me if something was written in the Washington Post if it's written as an editorial... I don't have too much respect for editorials no matter what side the folks are on and make no bones about it, the Washington Post has some righties as well as lefties who write editorial... Hey, is it asking too much for you to provide real news sources??? But no matter... Mr. Brody still hasn't provided any evidence that the ***actual*** increase in health care costs (including premiums) exceeeds the 2%.... He has, however, twisted numbers away from his client, the health care indusrty itself, and used smoke and mirrors to protect their 98% plus increase in costs since 2000.... But again, Oldster, nice try... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:35 AM Well well well Bobert. You agree with Chavez that Bush is El Diablo. I guess he is a credible news source. But you can't agree with the Washington Post editorial. Not a credible news source. Facinating. What was that you said? "Did you ever read a newspaper?" "I get all my news from the Washington Post" Now that you have chosen to skip over the credible news source, Nola: LIKE PUTTING BRICKS ON JELL-O'Everyone knows New Orleans sits on a former swamp. But floodwall designs apparently didn't take into account just how deep our mucky soil extends. When Katrina's intense pressure bore into the weak soils, the walls barely had a chance. Wednesday, November 09, 2005 By John McQuaid WASHINGTON -- When the Texas construction firm AquaTerra Contracting began work on an Army Corps of Engineers hurricane protection project on the West Bank, it encountered a serious problem: Its floodwalls wouldn't stand up straight in the mushy soil. AquaTerra workers tried driving steel sheet piling down to the 55-foot depth the design required for the walls' foundation, company CEO Clay Zollars said. But the piling, driven along a new drainage canal near the Cousins Pump Station, began to lean inward. Zollars said the corps went back to the drawing board and decided to better anchor the wall, nearly doubling the length of the steel foundation to 105 feet. That didn't work either. "Before we completed the wall, it began to lean and sink also," Zollars said. "The pilings were inadequate. The corps corrected that by installing some additional reinforcing steel in the concrete, but the wall still is leaning." The top of one section of the 10-foot concrete wall is more than a foot off the vertical, he said. AquaTerra is seeking $5 million it says the corps owes it for the extra work on the $11.1 million contract. Corps officials won't comment on the case because of the dispute. The company's problems illustrate one of the basic obstacles to building reliable levees -- or any heavy structure -- in south Louisiana: It's a swamp. Questions about soil are at the heart of investigations into why some of New Orleans' levees breached during Hurricane Katrina. Investigators say poor foundation conditions almost certainly led to the breaching of floodwalls along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals in New Orleans, flooding large parts of the city. The walls broke without being topped, suggesting a design or construction flaw. Data show layers of soft soils and organic matter under the wall foundations in breached areas that were not able to withstand the underground pressures generated by high waters in the canal, engineers say. 'A poor choice' "They were struck with a bad situation, and they made a poor choice with those floodwalls, trying to put a structural wall on plastic soils. It's like putting bricks on Jell-O. There isn't a lot of support," said J. David Rogers, a veteran forensic engineer who specializes in dam and floodwall failures. What is unclear is how the corps and its contractors went forward with designs that some engineers now say appear fundamentally flawed. A team of engineers at the University of California at Berkeley studying the levee failures said that the corps' design standards do not seem to have accounted for all the soil uncertainties, raising questions about the design of the entire levee system. The challenges of building floodwalls in weak, wet soils are well-known to engineers. A corps design manual warns that "by their very nature, floodwalls are usually built in a flood plain which may have poor foundation conditions." Unexpected problems with weak soil have cropped up before. The AquaTerra case resembles a 1990s dispute concerning the 17th Street Canal floodwall. Segments of that wall also tipped off-center when the concrete wall sections were poured, requiring additional work and sparking a legal tangle. As with AquaTerra, the corps left the leaning walls in place. A slightly tilted wall wouldn't necessarily be a safety hazard, engineers say, and it's not clear if the 17th Street Canal floodwall's early problems are directly linked to its ultimate failure. Soil is key Mississippi delta soil is notoriously unpredictable, both in composition and the ways it responds to stress. It's squishy and wet, with alternating layers of sand, silt, soft clays and peat, imbedded with the odd shells and decaying organic matter such as cypress trees. Engineers must figure out how to imbed stable structures in this gumbo that will remain upright and withstand occasional extreme pressures from hurricane storm surges, winds and waves. To do that, they depend on a delicate balancing of the forces of friction and gravity. Floodwalls, skyscrapers, homes and other structures are typically built on steel or concrete piles imbedded in the earth. They get some support from the bottom tip of the structure, the way legs hold up a table. But most of the work is done by friction. Pile foundations are held immobile by friction between the soil and the surface of the pile. Long piles offer more security because they have more surface area and generate more total frictional force. Multistory buildings in downtown New Orleans are anchored by concrete friction piles extending hundreds of feet below the surface. But a foundation is only as strong as the soil it's built in, and in engineering terms, strength is the soil's ability to resist forces acting on it and remain in place. Swamp, then subdivision The area around the breached canals was swamp before it was drained or filled to make way for the city's residential expansion in the early decades of the 20th century and after World War II. Before Katrina inundated it, it looked like any neighborhood. But a completely different landscape lurks just under the surface. "If you fly over the LaBranche Wetlands, (upriver from Kenner), you will see wet and dry areas, areas with vegetation and areas with none," said David Lourie of Lourie Construction, a New Orleans-based soil engineering firm. "If you imagine some of that occurring at depths of 50 or 100 feet underground, that's what we've got in New Orleans residential areas." Forces acting on the swamp for hundreds of years before humans decided to make it livable deformed it in peculiar ways, Lourie said, creating an unpredictable underground terrain. "Through the passage of time, changes in Gulf water levels, changes in river flows, some of those (soil) surfaces were eroded or cut away," he said. "There were natural variations in the surfaces. They weren't all flat like a tabletop. You can have variations block to block. . . . On one block you are over the center of a channel, and you could be only a block away and not over the same channel." That means the requirements to anchor a foundation can also vary block-by-block. That's why detailed soil testing is essential before building a levee, or any big structure, to identify exactly what's below ground. Looking for trouble Documents show that in the 17th Street and London Avenue floodwalls, original soil borings were done about every 300 feet. It's not clear if there were later surveys that collected more data, but investigators say the soil surveys could have missed spots of soil weakness, and that could have created unidentified weak points in the walls. In designing a wall, engineers weigh not only structural questions, but also issues of expense versus the high cost of failure. Floodwalls "must be designed for the most economical cross section per unit length of wall, because they often extend for great distances," a corps design manual says. "Added to this need for an economical cross section is the requirement for safety. The consequences of failure for a floodwall are normally very great since it protects valuable property and human life." Engineers say that the corps standards required an unusually low safety factor for the floodwalls, perhaps a remnant of a time when most levees protected sparsely populated rural areas, not cities and suburbs. A higher safety factor would require stronger walls -- and cost more. The AquaTerra, 17th Street and London Avenue walls are all "I-wall" designs, the least expensive type of concrete floodwall, consisting of linked concrete sections built on a sheet pile foundation. Other types of walls have additional horizontal bracing, either at the base of the concrete sections or in piles extending diagonally into the earth. After soil conditions are analyzed, designers use the data to decide on a wall's basic shape and dimensions. They go in with one piece of hard information -- how high the wall must be -- and must calculate the other numbers. One of the most important is how deep to drive the steel foundation. How low to go? Calculating sheet pile depths poses unique problems, as the AquaTerra case illustrates. Investigators say that the designers of the breached floodwalls also appear to have gone wrong on this front. Design documents show that sheet pile foundations in the two canals were not deep enough to prevent Katrina's storm surge from seeping under the walls. Some seepage is natural, engineers say, but it must be kept in check during a storm surge. When water rises in a canal it will push against the wall directly. Water pressure and movement through the soil also will increase. If the water gets high enough it can move the soil and the wall, a one-two punch that can rotate the bottom of the wall upward, or push the whole thing forward, or knock it out of alignment -- allowing water to get through -- creating a breach. Changes in water pressure from a storm surge can make clays and other soils grow temporarily weaker. Investigators say that sand, peat or rotting tree trunks could have provided a faster conduit for water penetrating under the sheet pile foundations, something that also would be difficult to account for in advance. At one of the London Avenue Canal breaches, investigators found uprooted trees near the base of the floodwall, according to the preliminary report by the American Society of Civil Engineers and National Science Foundation teams. Pulling out the tree root system could have provided an additional conduit for water flowing under the wall, engineers said, like a cork being pulled from a bottle. Once water under pressure found its way under the floodwall and pushed subterranean soils to the surface -- something called a sand boil that investigators discovered at several breach sites -- it likely triggered the large soil slides and heaves, literally knocking the walls off their shallow foundations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM While I might agree wsith Hugo that Bush is the Devil I would not use that ***opionion*** as a ***fact*** in arguing a position... As fir the long cut-n-post, yeah, like is any of this new news??? The engineers have long under4stood that the levee system could only hold but so much water due to the nature of the foudation soils... How is them having understood this prior to Katrina any rebuttal that Bush wouldn't spend the money that, inspite of what the Army Corpes of Enginners requests, to do the basic maintanence on the system??? Hey, the levees are federally owned and maintained and Bush flat out gutted the maintenane budget to 17% of what was requested... ...just as he gutted FEMA... That is the crux of the discussion... Yes, oldster, it's nice that you have spent some time bringing some additional information and even opinions into the discussion but none to date rebutt the basic positions I laid out a year ago on this thread... Can you address those issues??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:35 AM Bobert: So you are saying that if Bush had not cut the budget the levees would have held? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:42 AM "had Katrina come 'long durin' Clinton's years it would have been the other way 'round" Care to elaborate on that Bobert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 25 Sep 06 - 12:07 AM Need a doctor? Call a lawyer The barriers to affordable health care in the U.S. have long included outdated government-run programs like Medicare and Medicaid and an over-abundance of mandates and regulations imposed on the health care industry. Now, we must include the titanic costs of malpractice insurance. Litigation is increasing the price of malpractice insurance for physicians, which in turn has increased the price of health insurance for consumers, reduced the supply of physicians, and made health care generally less affordable and less accessible. Attack on Care Providers Extreme financial judgments against health care providers work at cross-purposes with efforts to extend affordable health insurance to the uninsured population. Mega-bucks settlements have made malpractice insurance unaffordable and unavailable to many health care providers. As a result, many doctors are being compelled to retire at the peak of their careers, limit their medical practices to all but the most routine health care procedures, shift their energies into research rather than practice, or move to a state with reasonable malpractice laws. Nursing home care has been especially hard hit, in part because of the increase in the number of senior citizens served by those facilities. Both the number of lawsuits and the size of awards are trending up. Between 1995 and 2001, according to a February 2002 study by Aon Risk Consultants Inc., the national average of insurance costs for nursing homes increased from $240 per occupied skilled nursing bed to $2,360. From 1990 to 2001, the average dollar size of claims tripled and the number of claims per bed increased from 3.6 to 11 per 1,000 beds. Consumers Suffer The lack of affordable insurance for providers makes it more difficult for consumers to get affordable, accessible health care--especially for high-risk medical specialties, such as obstetrics and neurosurgery, and in underserved rural communities. With fewer doctors available, we are beginning to experience longer wait times for an appointment, queuing at hospitals, and a shortage of medical specialists trained to tackle the tough medical cases. We are also experiencing the price inflation caused by defensive medicine. The actions taken by physician-defendants — often years before a malpractice suit goes to trial — are carefully scrutinized and often judged on the basis of medical standards that were not in place at the time the alleged malpractice took place. Because they cannot be certain their usual procedures wont be judged by the litigation system as lacking some years into the future, physicians today are adjusting their treatment protocols to cover all the bases. The malpractice lottery thus inflates the cost of medical care by forcing doctors to over-treat and over-test their patients. In a Fear of Litigation survey conducted in mid-April 2002 by Harris Interactive, doctors reported they perform tests and provide treatments they would not ordinarily perform, simply to protect themselves against a potential lawsuit. Seventy-six percent of respondents to the Harris survey felt their ability to provide quality care to patients has been compromised as a result. This practice of defensive medicine, while useful in a courtroom, does little or nothing to enhance patient outcomes. Every test and treatment poses a risk to the patient. Those tests and treatments also cost money ... some health economists suggest the cost of defensive medicine now exceeds $100 billion a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:37 AM Yet another ***editorial*** rebutttal... Second hand opinions is what I'm supposed to be debating???.... Firget it... Use some ***news sources*** and stay on topic, Olster... And, yeah, things very well would have been different had Katrina hit during Clinton's watch.... Can I prove that ther levees wouldn't have been breached??? Nah, but I can say that we wouldn't be looking back wondering "what if" the maintenance requests had been fully funded... Tell ya' what, Oldster, you keep throwing up this ratehr sophmorish "prove it" rebuttal as if it is the Holy Grail... Tell ya what, how 'bout you ***proving*** that the levees would have been breached during Katrina had the Army Corpes of Engineers gotten the money they requested for maintanence from Bush??? Yeah, do that, Oldster... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM "I can say that we wouldn't be looking back wondering "what if" the maintenance requests had been fully funded..." So if Katrina had come along during the Clinton years, the results would have been different some how? We wouldn't be wondering about things? How does that difference amount to anything tangible? How is that the other way around? And still, Do you claim that the levees would have held if GWB had given the Army Corps of Engineers all of the money they asked for? You keep knocking editorials as not fact and not to be taken seriously. Your whole thread is an based on your editorial opinion. Is it to be taken seriously? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Oct 06 - 08:25 PM Well, well, well... Looks as if the next Katrinagate is allready in the makin' as Congress in it's DHS funding legislation has required Bush the Screwup to hire a ***qualified*** directotr of FEMA... Sounds reasonable to have the president hire someone who, ahhhhh, is qualified but... no... Bush, in essence, has said "Screw you, Congress" with his "signing statement" which in effect allows Bush do do business as usual and appoint any 25 year old Bushite who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage to fun FEMA... Hmmmmmm??? No wonder Bush has lost the Iraq war... He did the same thing in hiring folks to oversee the war and subsequent occupation... Might of fact, a 24 kid was hired to rebuild tghe Iraqi stock market... His only credentials were that he was a Bush supporter and anti-abortion... This is why America is no safer now than before 9/11... And this is why if another Katrina hit tomorrow that we weould get a complete replay of the last time... Einstein said that "Insanity is repeating a behavior expecting a different result" and I'm sure that ol' Albert wouldn't have to study Bush too long before proclaimin' the boy "insane"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 09 Oct 06 - 08:19 AM "Insanity is repeating a behavior expecting a different result" Is that why you keep blaming Katrina on Bush? Maybe that is why I keep asking you: Do you claim that the levees would have held if GWB had given the Army Corps of Engineers all of the money they asked for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:33 PM No, the only reason you keep askin' this rather sophmorish question is because you have no defense and think that you might find this ol' hillbilly brain-dead enough one time to fall into your dumb little "prove-it trap"... But we've covered this ground before, Old Guy... BTW, maybe you'd like to "prove" the converse??? You know, like proving that the levees still would have been breeeched had Bush fully funded the Army Corpes of Engineers maintanace funding requests... Yeah, you first... Have at it, Oldster... I'll be awaitin' your proof with baited breath... BTW, what is your opinion on hiring less qualified people or completely unqualified for high level position based solely on political idealogy??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:41 AM They (the levees) failed that's the result! It was on Busk's watch, he's been there for 6 years & he had reports! What else? If your man at FEMA fails it's the fault of the man who appointed him. He had 6 yrs to strenghen FEMA & the Levees. So I guess Clinton is blame, again? When some you trusted enough to appoint into a position then when they say we need money to fix something you should trust them, no? I was crew aboard a sailing vessel, sailing from Boston to the Bahamas, it was a planned 5 day voyage. The owner/captain turned the helm over to the hired captain, as we sailed out of Buzzard's Bay. When the 1st major decision came up right after we cleared Buzzard's Bay. The choice was to either stay close to shore or make for deep open sea. The owner did't like the captain's choice & took the helm & postion back. When we had to put into Alantic City 5 days later for repairs I took my pay & jumped ship. The rest of the voyage was a disaster & twice the time. When you put someone in charge make very sure first that they're damn well qualified & not just someone's mother & second they're the expert, let them run the show until they prove not to be as qualified as once thought. So who's fault is it, again? Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Oct 06 - 08:21 AM Exactly, Barry... And Katrina has given us a bird's-eye view of what makes George fail... Rather than seek out qulaified people to run programs and make decisions he has appointed people based on nuthin' but politics.. We noe learn that the major reason that we are failing inIraq is because of this very reason.. I mean, think about it... Bush appointed a 24 year old kid to oversee the rebuilding of the Iraqi stock market... The kid had no other qualifications other that being a Repub partisan and being against abortion and gay marriage... Yeah, things are startin' to add up now and the worst part about it that Goerge doesn't even learn from experience as he has now used a "sighing statement" to crush Congress's wishes that thwe director of FEMA has experience in disasters and be overall qualified.. Hmmmmmmmm??? And Katrinagate marches on, and on, and on... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 06 - 11:33 AM So you are laying a "prove-it trap" for me? I have presented articles that say the levees wouldn't have held. How many can you find that says they would have held? Neither one of us are engineers so we have to depend on the writings of others and look at their credentials and motivations to try to see if they know what they are talking about. From what I have read and seen, which you refuse to read and see, is that they wouldn't have held unless the construction was started 20 years ago. Even then they might not have known about the underlying weakness of the soil and the CAT 5 proof levees might have still failed. "Zollars said the corps went back to the drawing board and decided to better anchor the wall, nearly doubling the length of the steel foundation to 105 feet. That didn't work either." So would 200 feet have been deep enough? Get out the "Ol Wes' Ginny slide rool and cipher that one. You are so unsure of the validity of your assertion that the levees failed because GWB cut the Army Corps of Engineers request to 17% that you will not turn it into a statement. I can say that the levees wouldn't have held. What is your statement? You are treading water and adding more posts to your "Katrinagate" tribute to Bobert by dodging questions. Soon you will be able to brag "800 posts and I still haven't answered the old guy about how the levees would have held if GWB had funded the USACE 100%" You are 100% right about GWB gutting FEMA. I have said so many times. Where you are wrong is that Bush is not responsible for the death and destruction in New Orleans even though you are using the gutting of FEMA as a reason to blame it on GWB. That death and destruction was the result of years of corruption in the state and local government, combined with the incompetency of state and local government to protect their own people. What you are attempting to do is shift that blame over to your arch enemy, GWB and you don't mind using innocent people's pain, suffering and death as a political tool for your purposes. Were you hoping for another one this year so you could heap even more animosity on Bush? Were you disappointed? Such biased thinking lets the real culprits escape any blame. You refuse to distribute the blame where it belongs which is mean spirited, wrong thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM "You are 100% right about GWB gutting FEMA. I have said so many times". The difference is: he knew & as usual sat back & did nothing (remember 9/11) & let/watched folks die. In the case of Katrina though he put the money back in his pocket before he did nohing. Trust him to find the silver linning. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:25 PM What did the Mayor of New Orleans and the Govener of Louisianna do while folks were dying? After they bragged "we are prepared"? Here is a hint: Miles O'Brien: What what day did you ask for Federal troops? Blanco: "I don't even know what day it is." "I really need to call for the military, I mean, I really should have started that in the first call." WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 — It was Gov. Blanco's first big disaster — and less than 48 hours before Katrina hit, she reassured the state. "I believe we are prepared," she said in Jefferson Parish on Aug. 27. "That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." Story continues below ↓ advertisement Though experts had warned it would take 48 hours to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco did not order a mandatory evacuation that Saturday. "We're going to pray that the impact will soften," she said. Blanco and the mayor waited until Sunday, Aug. 28 — only 20 hours before Katrina came ashore — to order a mandatory evacuation, the first of what disaster experts and Louisiana insiders say were serious mistakes by the governor. "It certainly appeared that there was a lot of indecisiveness exhibited by the governor in the early stages of the disaster," says Louisiana State Democratic Senator Donald Cravins. A key criticism: the governor's slowness in requesting federal troops. She told the president she needed help, but it wasn't until Wednesday, Aug. 31 that she specifically asked for 40,000 troops. That day, in a whispered conversation with her staff caught on camera, the governor appears to second-guess herself. "I really need to call for the military," Blanco tells an aide. "Yes you do, yes you do," is the reply. "And I should have started that in the first call," Blanco adds. What is your rhetoric "he put the money back in his pocket" based on? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:45 PM No, OLd Guy, you have ****presented**** editorials... I'm not going to debate some partisan editorial writer's opinions... You still don't get it, do you??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Oct 06 - 07:59 PM And further more, while Bush continues to sandbag on what he did in rwesponse to Katrina, Governor Blanko has released ****all**** of her notes, emails, phone records, letters, etc., etc... I'd just be happy if Bush would do the same but he has a major credibility problem and every time he screws up "executive priveldge" ain't too far behind... Might of fact, "executive privelidge" oughtta me the hallmark of this corrupt administration... And, BTW, Oldster, you have referred to Cat 5 storms in yer danged unteenth un-rebuttal... Are you aware that Katrina was a Cat 3 when it hit New Orleans??? And hjow do you feel about Bush thumbin' his nose at a Repub controlled Congress in tellin' Congress that, in essence, it's none of their friggin' business if he wants to hire Donald Duck to run FEMA??? Yeah, answer me that one... And can you point out to the first post where you agreed with me that that Bush, not the Dems, is "100% responsible for guttin' FEMA"??? Seems as if yer finally coming 'round but sho nuff would have been nice if you'd come 'round before that seemingly endess un-rebuttal of blamin' the Dems for screwin' up FEMA... Sho nuff would... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:57 PM What I get is your refusal to recognize facts and now you are dodging the question again. It is not difficult, just a yes or no. Can you "get" that? Are you saying the levees would not have failed if Bush had funded the USACE 100% YES___ NO ___ How many editorials or anything can you present that supports your insinuation that the levees failed because Bush underfunded the USACE? Show me something that says Bush thumbed his nose at a Repub controlled Congress in tellin' Congress that, in essence, it's none of their friggin' business if he wants to hire Donald Duck to run FEMA. That is another example of your rhetoric to make up for the fact that you have no facts. Yes I am aware that Katrina was a cat 3 storm. I have mentioned Katrina and I have mentioned cat 5 but I have never said Katrina was a cat 5. As I said before "Please point to where I said Katrina was a cat 5 storm Oh fact filled rancorous one?" As to your claim that "I am finally coming 'round": Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy - PM Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM Hey Bobert: I have never disputed any of your findings, only your conclusion. Now see it you can avoid a rebuttal of this: GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO, LOUISIANA: 8/28/05 Thank you, Mayor. I want to reiterate what the mayor has said. This is a very dangerous time. Just before we walked into this room, President Bush called and told me to share with all of you that he is very concerned about the citizens. He is concerned about the impact that this hurricane would have on our people. And he asked me to please ensure that there would be a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. The leaders at the highest ranks of our nation have recognized the destructive forces and the possible awesome danger that we are in. And I just want to say, we need to get as many people out as possible. And still if the Democrats had not demanded the creation of DHS, FEMA would have been left alone. "But Old Guy, The democrats didn't ask for Fema to be gutted" I have asked Bobert if FEMA could have been made sister or brother to 22 other federal agencys and still remained as effective. What was the answer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:36 PM Old Guy, You can give up on yer "prove it" line of defense... I think that anyone with an I.Q. greater than that of a box of animal crackers fully understands that there is no way I can prove it and there's no way that you can prove the converse... Kinda like smoking cigarettes... If Joe Blow smokes 2 packs of cigarettes for 30 years and dies of lung cancer there isn't any way to "prove" he got lung cancer from smoking cigarettes... This is a rather weak line of defense on your part and from here out, rather than try to re-explain what is apparent to any thinking person to you, when you make this very juvililistic argument I', just going to respond simply by sayin' "No, you prove it...", something that you have been unable to do so far... Now as to Bush thumbin' his nose at his Republican controled Congress: Read "Bush Balks at Criteria for FEMA Director, Signing Statement Asserts Right to Ignore Parts of the New Homeland Security Law", by Spencer Hsu, Washington Post, October 7th"... "Ignoring Law(s)"??? Hmmmmmmmmm??? Seesm that Bush ain't never met a law not worth breakin'... As for me usin' editorials in may case against Bush's handling of Katrina, Old Guy, show me one post where I have quoted an editorial writer... Unlike you, I use real news sources, form my own judegments and make my own arguments... Might of fact, in the years I have battled nuckleheads like you over various failures of the Bush folks I have never rersorted to using any editorialist's material... And lastly, Old Guy, FEMA failed because it was gutted and mismanged... It didn't fail becasue of the shufflin' of seats... That happens all the time... It could have been more effective had it had resources, vender contracts in place and a boss intellegent enough to know when he was told 2 full days before the storm that it was gonna be "the big one" that it was time to get to work... But, no, not only didn't Bush get to work but he continued vacationin' away and ****then**** went to California for some politicin' and fund raisin'????????????????? I mean, this is a friggin' *****slam dunk***** here against yer hero, Old Guy... Everyone else who has shown up here to defend "George the Crook" has quickly seen that there is no real defense of yer hero... Yet you continue to play these childish arguments???????????? I have now figurated exactly why you like Bush so much... You two are peas in a pod... Joined at the lip.... Nip 'n Tuck... Lucy and Ethel... The Hardy Boys... Sherlock and Watson... Amos 'n Andy... Twiddledee and Twiddledumb.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:58 AM George Bush is not my hero but Hugo Chavez and Kim Jong-il are your heros. "Hugo is da' man" "I'm so happy that North Korea has a bomb!!!" How crooked are they compared to GWB? "Neither has killed one American i nt ehlast 6 years" How may Venezuelens and North Koreans have they killed in the last 6 years? At least I have the courage to say the levees would have failed even if George Bush had funded USACE 100%. Do you have the courage to come out from behind your editorial shield and state in writing what you have been hinting at? This is OK with Bobert:Jan. 15, 2003 - In the far north of North Korea, in remote locations not far from the borders with China and Russia, a gulag not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century holds some 200,000 men, women and children accused of political crimes... ..."And then, from time to time there a living infant is delivered. And then if someone delivers a live infant, then the guards kick the bloody baby and kill it. And I saw an infant who was crying with pain. I have to express this in words, that I witnessed such an inhumane hell."... ..."I saw so many poor victims," she said. "Hundreds of people became victims of biochemical testing. She tearfully described how in one instance about 50 inmates were taken to an auditorium and given a piece of boiled cabbage to eat. Within a half hour, they began vomiting blood and quickly died. "I saw that in 20 or 30 minutes they died like this in that place. Looking at that scene, I lost my mind... ...2 million people have died of starvation while Kim has amassed the world's largest collection of Daffy Duck cartoons... Yeah Bobert, This buddy of yours, Kim Jong-il, is much better than GWB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:06 AM "Bush Balks at Criteria for FEMA Director, Signing Statement Asserts Right to Ignore Parts of the New Homeland Security Law", by Spencer Hsu, Washington Post, October 7th"... Why are you refering me to editorials? Does it say anything in there about Donald Duck? Are you saying the levees would not have failed if Bush had funded the USACE 100% YES___ NO ___ You don't have to provide any proof, just an honest statement of what you believe. I have stated what I honestly believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:20 PM No, you prove it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:39 PM BTW, what do you honetly believe, Olsdter??? Do you beileve that, contrary to Hunter Johnston, of Johnston & Associates, who stated "If then Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, theres is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in a much better position", that even had the maintenance been fully funded that we would have had the axact same results??? Is that what you believe, Old Guy??? Maybe you'd like to tell us why someone who knows much more about the levee sytem, it's maintance and its shortcomings from being unerfunded than either of us would make such a public pronouncement??? Maybe you'd like to grag a flat-earther so-called scientist in to proclaim that the levees would have failed anyway, no matter... Maybe you'd just like to say, "That's what I belive, even if it isn't based on facts other than the flat-eart scientists opinion..." I can live with that, Olster, but to continue your 3rd grade-ish "prove it" argument is a tad thread-bare.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:45 PM "That even had the maintenance been fully funded that we would have had the axact same results" Bingo, You have reinforced my belief again. "3rd grade-ish "prove it" argument" Where did I ask you to prove it? Again, you don't have to prove it. Now what do you believe? You like make insinuations but you won't put your name on them. Now who is the cowardly one? I believe the levees would have failed even if GWB had funded the USACE 100%. Are you saying the levees would not have failed if Bush had funded the USACE 100% YES___ NO ___ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Oct 06 - 08:45 AM The yes-no question is the *bait* and the "prove it" ain't far behind... Actually, I was the first to set up the "prove it" trap a long time go on you and if you were smart enough not to fall for it I'm sho nuff smart enough to stay the heck outtta it... But since you say that that you "believe" that the levees would have failed would you now like to offer up what evidence you have collected from reliable news sources??? And, keep in mind, that we are talkin' Katrina here and not a Cat 5 storm... And keep in mind that part of the levee "system" isn't just the walls but also the pumping system... Now, Oldster, bring on your evidence... And, please... no editirialists. por favor'... BTW, if you reread your last post you use the the word "believe" in describing yer position but in your little yes-no trap you take the "believe" option for me out... Hmmmmmm??? Why do you expect to hold me to a higher standard than yourself??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 13 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM Well, I never said you had to prove it but you demand that I prove it. Standard method of operation for a crybaby liberal that is too chicken to say what he believes. The Liberal double standard. Your opponents have to prove things but you don't. In addition you don't even have to make any firm statements to be proven or disproven. Because everything I have heard and read, I believe that the levees would have failed even if GWB had funded the USACE 100% Are you saying the levees would not have failed if Bush had funded the USACE 100% YES___ NO ___ Turn that bluster into something firm. You acuse me of dodging questions while you refuse to answer on the grounds that it may stand to prove your insincerity and facetiousness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Oct 06 - 08:27 PM Refresh my last post... But read it this time, Oldster... You keep askin' questions that have been answered... But a new battery in yer *readin' aid* 'cuase you ain't readeratin' too good... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:25 PM Bobert: You have not answered this question: Are you saying the levees would not have failed if Bush had funded the USACE 100% YES___ NO ___ If you have, point it out. And for the umpteenth time, you don't have to prove it. You insinuate things but you won't state them like a drive by shooter, a sniper that is too chicken to expose himself to scrutiny of his convictions. You have no beliefs. You just like to sling mud without getting your hands dirty. You have painted yourself in a corner and all you can do is claim I can't read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM No, I haven't answerwed that particular question, Old Guy, and nor will I... It is a trap question... I've explained the trap to you and explained why I won't answer it... You won't answer the same converse question yourself but you will say that you "believe" that the levees still would have been breeched... Believing and stating as fact are two different statements... If, however, you'd like to answer the converse question then fine... Then I'll spring the "prove it" trap on you... Considerin' how many times you have now asked the same "trap question" makes me think of how Einstien defined "insanity" when he observed that "insanity is repeating a behavior expecting different results"... Seems to fit you purdy well... If you want to play yes-no, yer gonna have to take the "trap" out of the questions 'cause I mighta been born at night but it weren't last night... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM Bobert won't say what he believes. He makes insinuations but he won't say he believes his insinuations are true. This means he doesn't believe them himself. He takes a cheap shot and ducks. Brave courageous and bold eh wot? Bobert: "Seems the real disaster was that Bush was too busy carnking up the funding his new shiney war in Iraq to be bothered with covering up the rear... And Katrina out flanked him... 17% of the what was requested for maintinance of the levee system by the Corps of Engineers is all that Bush coughed up the year before Katrina..." Do you believe that the levees, or the levee system, failed because GWB cut the USACOE maintenence funding to 17%? YES ___ NO ___ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: bobad Date: 18 Mar 07 - 02:50 PM The truth is finally revealed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Mar 07 - 03:48 PM Thanks, bobad.... Everything makes sense now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:36 PM Still Trying to House Katrina's Victims |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM With any luck the Bush administration will be able to blame and shame the victims for failing to do something about finding a home before now without begging from good honest folks like the Bush family and friends at this late date. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:28 AM Broken Promises to a Broken Gulf (NY Times editorial) Published: April 17, 2007 President Bush has reneged on his promises to Katrina's victims. Shamefully, the president has chosen the interests of bureaucracy over those of American towns on the brink of failure. Over a year and a half later, there are 64,000 people still sleeping in trailers in Louisiana and far too many communities without schools, hospitals and other basics. These are unacceptable failures. At least part of the problem is a law that requires states to contribute 10 percent of the cost of most federally financed reconstruction projects. Mr. Bush waived that requirement after the Sept. 11 attacks (as his father did after Hurricanes Andrew and Iniki) but he refuses to do so for the Gulf Coast. A law written to deal with isolated tornadoes does not fit the total devastation of an entire region, and particularly the drowning of a major city like New Orleans. But municipalities are still being asked to pony up by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, even when they are broke. Louisiana has tried to ease the problem by covering the local share out of a separate pot of money (from Housing and Urban Development block grants) only to find the conflicting demands of the two federal bureaucracies nearly insurmountable. In Louisiana, this bureaucratic nightmare has left the financing for roughly 20,000 projects in limbo, while generating 2.6 million documents and the attendant overhead costs. Recognizing the urgency of the situation, both the House and the Senate have passed versions of the cost-sharing waiver, but they are attached to the spending bill for Iraq, which President Bush has vowed to veto if it includes a deadline for a troop withdrawal. The administration also argues that Congress has already committed over $110 billion for Gulf Coast relief and reconstruction. That is certainly a large sum. But so much money was spent on immediate needs, like housing victims in hotels, that only a relatively small share was left for rebuilding the shattered coastal areas across five states. The State of Louisiana estimates the gap between the devastation there and the federal and private payouts at $34 billion. It is particularly unfortunate because New Orleans — where the failure of the federally built levee system led to the most damage and suffering — has finally come up with a limited, practicable rebuilding program that requires the waiver. Led by a respected disaster recovery expert, Edward Blakely, the $1.1 billion plan focuses on 17 areas for rebuilding, including the city's historic centers, old markets and key traffic junctures. The city says it will finance its plan mostly through a pair of bond issues and partly with federal funds. Even then it expects to come up $324 million short. New Orleans could get the money from the state — if the matching requirement were waived. Those state funds are currently waiting to be used to cover the 10 percent share of those 20,000 projects. In a lofty speech soon after Katrina, Mr. Bush vowed that "we will do what it takes" to rebuild the damaged communities. He did not say, "Unless easily waived regulatory restrictions prohibit us." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Dickey Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:00 AM "the failure of the federally built levee system" Not true. It is a product of the Levee board using local and federal money. in December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes. "In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects." The levee board promised Times-Picayune readers that the "few manageable gaps" in the walls protecting the city from Mother Nature's waters "will be sealed within four years (1999) completing our circle of protection." But less than a year later, that same levee board was denied the authority to refinance its debts. Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle "repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends money and ignores public bid laws," according to the Times-Picayune. The newspaper quoted Kyle as saying that the board was near bankruptcy and should not be allowed to refinance any bonds, or issue new ones, until it submitted an acceptable plan to achieve solvency. Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project. By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center. The following year, the state legislature did appropriate $49.5 million for levee improvements, but the proposed spending had to be allocated by the State Bond Commission before the projects could receive financing. The commission placed the levee improvements in the "Priority 5" category, among the projects least likely to receive full or immediate funding. The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls. No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched. "The problem is money is real tight in Baton Rouge right now," state Sen. Francis Heitmeier (D-Algiers) told the Times-Picayune. "We have to do with what we can get." Louisiana Commissioner of Administration Mark Drennen told local officials that, if they reduced their requests for state funding in other, less critical areas, they would have a better chance of getting the requested funds for levee improvements. The newspaper reported that in 2000 and 2001, "the Bond Commission has approved or pledged millions of dollars for projects in Jefferson Parish, including construction of the Tournament Players Club golf course near Westwego, the relocation of Hickory Avenue in Jefferson (Parish) and historic district development in Westwego." There is no record of such discretionary funding requests being reduced or withdrawn, but in October of 2003, nearby St. Charles Parish did receive a federal grant for $475,000 to build bike paths on top of its levees. Earlier this year, the levee board did complete a $2.5 million restoration project. After months of delays, officials rolled away fencing to reveal the restored 1962 Mardi Gras fountain in a four-acre park featuring a new 600-foot plaza between famous Lakeshore Drive and the sea wall. Financing for the renovation came from a property tax passed by New Orleans voters in 1983. The tax, which generates more than $6 million each year for the levee board, is dedicated to capital projects. Levee board officials defended more than $600,000 in cost overruns for the Mardi Gras fountain project, according to the Times-Picayune, "citing their responsibility to maintain the vast green space they have jurisdiction over along the lakefront." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM Sounds like Bush, Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:12 PM Well, here we are on the eve of what is one of the largest national disasters in our conutry's history... As I have pointed out, Bush and Co. ***failed*** to provide the necessary resources for FEMA... They were hoping that nuthin' like Katrina would hit but ti did and it showed just how poorly the Bushites were prepared to actually deal with a disadter... It would be one thing if 9/11 hadn't occured but 9/11 did occur and what Katrina showed was that all that chwest pounding that Buish and Co. did about how that had the bases covered was all just that: chest pounding and nuthin' else... Here we are on the eve of the 2nd anniversary of Katrina and Bush has made some 13 visits there but has to date not come up with a real plan on what our country does if anm large area goes down... This is why I have always felt there was a cover-up... If the Bush peo[ple had the bases covered after 9/11 then the response to Katrina wouldn't have been so slow, so ill-thought-out or totally ineffective... No, the Bush folks were real good at talklin' the talk but not so good on walkin' the walk... 2 years after Katrina and New Orleans is something out of a sci-fi movie... There is no plan other than... ...run out the clock... Yeah, runnin' out the clock seems to be the Bushite strategy for surviving the last year and few months of his administration... But runnin' out the clock in Bush's case is probably the best thing to do seein' how totally incompetant he is at fixing anything... So, George, just go off and play... The next administration will deal with it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:14 PM Awwwwww, what the heck.... 800!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: DougR Date: 29 Aug 07 - 08:22 PM Uh, Bobert, I assume you feel that the good folks in New Orleans, including it's illustrious mayor, bear no blame for the fact that New Orleans is still on the "ropes". Right? It's all Bush's fault. Well, why not? He's blamed for everything else! Just think when he is no longer in office there will be no more hurricanes, no more tornados, no more robberies, no more murders, no more child molestations:we will live in a land of milk and honey. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:47 PM Two years ago, Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. In the days following the tragedy, promises to help rebuild that great city and get New Orleanians back on their feet rolled in from the Bush Administration. It turns out, that's all they were—empty promises. Molly L., a MoveOn member from New Orleans, tells what really happened: "The president promised my city aid and help, but we have received almost none. He needs to be told that he was elected as the leader of the American people, and that THEY should be his first priority." It's not surprising that the Bush Administration would fail to deliver—that's their trademark. But we can't let them get away with this blatant neglect of fellow Americans who are trying to rebuild their lives. Clicking the link below will add your name to the petition telling Congress that two years is too long and that they must pass the Gulf Coast Housing Recovery Act of 2007. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2927?&id=11149-137503-zv1Q_B&t=3 The bill provides desperately needed funds for affordable housing, guarantees the replacement of public housing units, and ensures that all those who wish to return home can do so. It also continues assistance for evacuees to make sure that they have safe, decent housing until they can return home. There is progress in the Gulf, thanks to countless acts of courage and resourcefulness by citizens determined to rebuild. And there is still tremendous suffering—its persistence is a national disgrace. We asked MoveOn members on the Gulf Coast how they were doing two years after Katrina—their stories were uplifting and heartbreaking, eloquent and exasperating. But their message was unmistakable: Don't forget us. Below are some of the messages they asked us to share: Life in the Big Easy isn't so easy anymore, and it might never be quite the same. As strong and proud as we New Orleanians may be, we still need the help of our fellow Americans. –Yanna G., Metairie, LA What helped the people of the Gulf Coast was not the government, not insurance companies, but regular everyday Americans who gave and continue to give of their time, money, moral support, friendship and love to help us here. I am so grateful for that. –Jessica J., New Orleans, LA Recovery has been very slow, especially for renters. We lived in government housing and they have been one of the last to rebuild or repair their buildings. Tomorrow is the 2nd anniversary and we are still in a FEMA camper...made to vacation in, NOT live in. We are very thankful for a roof over our heads, however, we need permanent housing. –Cheryl E., Bay St. Louis, MS Please, please, please continue to write and call your political representatives, as well as the national media, and tell them that it is unforgivable for them to continue to neglect and forget not only my once amazing city,but the entire Gulf Coast region affected. –Molly L., New Orleans, LA Please tell your Congress they must help the Gulf Coast recover. Click here to add your name. Thanks for all you do, |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:46 PM Refresh... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:38 PM Well, here we are again with a possible Cat 3 heading for N.O.... One thing is for sure from what I'm seein on CNN and that is the people have no trust in the levies and, unlike in Katrina, are gettin' the heck out... Good job, Georgie... Good job... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:50 PM The thread Gustav is reviving some of the old comments. I hope we don't have a Gustavgate, but the west levees are incomplete. And the H hurricane is out there somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM The H storm, Tropical Storm Hanna, is supposed to become a hurricane, then come up the east coast, hitting land somewhere around the Georgia coast Friday afternoon. At least that's the prediction as of today (Sunday)... http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/144212.shtml?5day#contents For anyone who's interested, this graphic has all of the Atlantic storm activity, including areas of activity that have some probability of becoming named storms (right now there's one with a low probability and one with a high probability, plus the hurricane and the tropical storm)... http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gtwo_atl.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:25 AM Here's satellite imagery of both Gustav and Hanna... http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/nwatl/vis-l.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM Seems pretty amazing that in only three years, the levees were rebuilt to withstand another hurricane. Somebody deserves a thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM Send them thank you notes to God, Sawz... If this storm had hit 90 miles east then we'd have a much different story tonight... N.O. dodged a bullet... This time... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:27 PM The storm was topping the levees, just barely in some areas, but the pumps were able to keep up with it. So far so good. I am glad neither party is trying to make political hay out of it. (Knock on driftwood). A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM I'm with you, buddy... N.O. is an accident (on purpose) waiting to happen so it's great that it wasn't this time... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM Some people were lickin' their lips, hoping for a big catastrophe so's they could whine, weep wail and cry Bush, Bush, Bush. Maybe next time their dreams will come true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:26 PM Well, I think some of the Repubs wanted a catastrophe so they could demonstrate how good they were at being responsible about it. Glad that didn't happen, either. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:28 PM How salacious. They wanted a catastrophe so bad that they did everything they could do to prevent one. But my remark was somewhat salacious also. It seems to me that some people want bad things to happen so they will have something else to complain about. In doing so they miss anything positive that might happen and actually seek to nullify anything positive so as not to break the aura of gloom and doom that they project. I am not in to gloom and doom myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:22 AM Are you even interetsed in facts, Sawz??? Apparently not... The storm center took a path about 100 miles west of New Orleans... If you are looking at the pictures this morning of the waters coming over the levies and imagine what it would have been like if the storm center had actually hit New Orleans it doesn't take much imagination to see that N.O. would have been sverely damaged and the so-called "new 'n improved" FEMA would have been tested... As it is, Bush is sighing a sigh of relief because now that test may fall on the next president... Talk about running out the clock??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM If God is responsible for the levee system working this time then God must have been responsible for the levee system failing the last time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM Is that yer final answer, Cobgressman??? lol... Last time was a direct hit, Sawz... And, BTW, God ain't responsible for the levies, or guttin' FEMA, or hiring people based on their views on abortion rather than their level of expertise... No, God didn't have His hand in those screw-ups but George Bush sho nuff did and he did a fine job of it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM Bobert: If the levees fail when Ike hits, will it be because God did it or Mankind? "Are you even interetsed in facts, Sawz??? Apparently not." Yes I am interested in facts. Are you? Here is a Bobert fact: "The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth" Where did this propaganda come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM This article has some numbers on income disparity in the US... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM Wow!!! This just in folks... Rememeber O(ld Guy??? How about Dickey??? And then it was, ahhhhhh, geeze... the short term memory is going...lol... Ya'l' know... The last of the reincarnations... Well, there weren't no Sawz when I posted the comment about Haiti and I know that a new GUEST wouldn't go thru 14000 of my old posts so, hey, Old Guy/Dickey/________, good to see ya... Carol, Not sure if you get o0r read the recent Nation but there is a very intersting article in there about how the white people in N.O. have used to the rebuilding of N.O after Katrina as a way to reinstitute segregation... Man, they have come up with some real wierd laws that have Jim Crow written all over them... BTW, interesting link and one reason why the country is moving toward a revolution of some sorts... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: DougR Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM Some Repubs wished for a catastrophe Amos? Which Republicans would that be? Got names? Got proof? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM It's not that far a leap, Dougie, to see that McCain, who tried his best to distance himself from Bush during the convention, was happy that the hurricane came the day that Bush was supposed to address the Republican Convention... I'm sure that there was a major sigh of relief when N.O. was told to evacuate... The old McCain wouldn't have been driven by the politics but under the toolage of many of the old Bush cmapaign people the new McCain is taking nicely to carrying on where Bush has left off, both in policies and in his divisive style... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: DougR Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM It seems like a pretty far leap to me, Bobert. As far as GWB's role at the convention, who knows, perhaps the Almighty was working in one of those mysterious ways. :>( DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM Okay, Dougie, maybe He was??? No matter... The McCain folks must have felt like it... They did not want Bush there and if it meant New Orleans getting blasted I dare say that most of McCain's handlers would have privately said, "Bring the sumabich on..." Strange this relationship between Bush and hurricanes... They blast him where ever he is... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM Katrina was by no means a "direct hit" on New Orleans. The storm passed to the EAST, meaning that the prevailing (counterclockwise) hurricane winds in the N.O. area were coming from the north-northeast. The levees should have held, and they didn't. Gustav passed to the west/southwest of New Orleans, meaning that the storm winds were coming from the south/southeast ~ from the water. This makes for a more dangerous storm surge into Lake Pontchartrains and Borne and the MRGO (Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, an especially dangerous manmade feature creted at the behest of shipping and petroleum interests). The levees have obviously been improved since '05 ~ if they hadn't, Gustav would have been worse than Katrina. (Flooding in the city would have been the same thing all over again, and damage around Louisiana but outside the NO area was worse.) It was a close call, and those levees still need further improvement. Indeed, continuing work is scheduled through 2010. The Industrial Canal very nearly overtopped the west-side levee, i.e., the upper ninth ward, and my side. The east-side levees, which failed spectacularly afrter Katrina, were rebuilt 3-4 feet higher and were not in danger of overtopping during Gustav. Everyone performed much better this time around than three years ago, public officials and private citizens alike. No person or party should either claim credit or place blame. Before Katrina, it was impossible to take the threat seriously enough because it was impossible to imagine what could really happen. (Impossible for most people, anyway.) I never blamed the Bush administration for anything to do with the disaster EXCEPT for fouling up the recovery process by having gutted FEMA of professional staff and turning it into a patronage mill (case in point: Arabian-horse expert Michael Brown's appointment as head honcho). I think that's a very fair criticism. A good friend who is a longtime registered nurse had taken part in a simulated hurricane drill less than a year before Katrina. She took the exercise seriously, but was appalled at how few of her coworkers, peers, and superiors shared her serious attitude. People simply couldn't believe that the worst could actually happen, and so took the training exercise as an opportunity to take time off from work, "smokin' and jokin'" their way through a day off from the regular routine. These were some of the many many folks who failed miserably when a crisis actually happened. The highly visible politicians and other "leaders" were not alone in falling short, nor were the bottom-dwelling scum who got themselves on national TV as looters. They did wrong, for sure, but so did countless folks on every socioeconomic level in between. Katrina was THE defiunitive "reality check." Everyone learned a bitter lesson ~ or two or three ~ and everyone behaved more appropropritely this time around. No one party or personality did better than any other, and anyone who claims otherwide in an effort to make political hay is simply full of it. PS to Jayto & many others who saw Katrina wreak havoc far inland: you are correct to observe that Gustav was smaller and never ventured as far north as Katrina at full force. However, Gustav moved north very slowly and meandered around Louisiana, causing greater damage than ever imagined to places like Baton Rouge and Alexandria before weakening and leaving the state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:48 PM Thank you, P-Gator... That has been my point since starting this thread... FEMA was not up to the task because of it being underfunded, understaffed and being managed by people who were not competent... That is all on Bush and thus the "gate" in Katrinagate... Bush was betting that a Katrine wouldn't happen... He bet wrong and got caught... As well as the people in New Orleans... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:01 AM "Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM Well, I been saying this for the last couple years here in Mudville... The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth and the rest of the population in the crapper." It ain't hard to find because this thread is still open and Bobert posted to it in January. Ahhhh, How come you duck the questions when they seek to question your "facts"? You asked me If I was interested in facts. I sure am so tell me all about this fact of yours. Where did you get the "fact" that "1% hold all the wealth in Haiti"? Please share your source with us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM My sentiments exactly PoppaGator. A pessimist is an optimist with experience. Now when someone tells them to get out, they get out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM Glad to be of service, and to give you two something upon which to agree, more-or-less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM Well, Sawz, I sho nuff ain't backin' away from the statement I made back then about the income disparity in the US... It is no secret that the divide has been increasing since 1982 and accelerated drastically over the last 8 years... Yes, I can envision a situation where the super wealthy will be holed up in their compounds with private security companies like Balckwater protecting them... Actually, I hear that there is a company right now that provides these services for an annual fee that in the case of a catastrope will collect the wealthy and get them to safety and provide for them... Wealthy people are allready purchasing yearing plans for such a scenerio... But down the road when Southern Man figures out just who's hand is in his pocket I'd be willing to bet that these companies will offer simialr services... I mean, all one has to do is tudy history to see the cycles of revolution and they all boil down to resources... There will come a tipping point, Sawz, as there has every time that a small number of folks corral too much wealth... It has happened hundreds, maybe thousands, of times during the history of man... Right now, we have roughly 5% of the population controlling roughly 80% of the wealth... Another way of looking at that is that 95% od the people are having to live on about 20% of the wealth created... Hmmmmm? So what the tipping point is, I don't know... What I do know is that those 95% are being squeezed harder than any time in my life time... This isn't just my opinion but a fact that we hear almost daily... What this means is that unless the rich are willing to share then two things are going to happen. First, as I have allready mentioned, the rich will have to do what rich have historically done before revolutions and that is to protect themselves the best they can... In this phase they will move into compounds... We have allready seen this in many areas with gated communities and private security companies such as Blackwater... Now if they continue to not want to share when things are starting to get uncomfortable and they feel like prisoners then there will occur a revolution... This isn't an opinion based on my imagination but one based on history... Voltaire said, "Those who don't know history tend to repeat it" So the ball is in your court Sawz... Are you willing to bet that this time will be different??? Well, if you are, I'd suggest taking a few history classes before making your wager... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM BTW, Sawz... Before youi bring it up... There is a reason why we haven't yet seen a successful revolution in Haiti where over 1/2 the population lives, or tries to live, on less than a dollar a day and that reason is that these golkas don't have guns... Billy Bob has plenty of guns and knows how to shoot 'um... Bad scenerio for Boss Hog... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:38 AM Bobert: You asked me if I was interested in facts. Yes I am interested in facts. Are you so smug and blasé that you are attempting to my question with a question? Where did you get the "fact" that "1% hold all the wealth in Haiti"? Methinks you dreamt it up like the possum. If 1/2 of the population has anything at all to live off of, it does not jive with your "1% holding all the wealth" fact. Will the real fact please stand up. I guess George Hussein Onyango Obama is not much better off with his dollar a day compared with the Haitians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: SINSULL Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM More good news: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26647780/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM The immediate response to Katrina (or, more accurately, the lack thereof) was pretty strong evidence that the agency had become a patronage mill, a source of dead-head jobs rewarding Bushite loyalists with easy paychecks. It should be no surprise that the awarding of contracts for dealing with the aftermath, when time was short and approval for funding was pretty much automatic, would present opportunities for fraudualent profiteering that were just too tempting to pass up. Because the Shaw Group, one of the fattest pigs at the trough, is based in Baton Rouge, we heard a lot of crowing about how much money was "staying right here in Louisiana." As though I should be glad that so much money found its way into the pockets of a well-connected few in Baton Rouge, not only to another bunch of fatcats in Washington and its Virginia and Maryland suburbs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:07 PM Thanks, Sins, for that article... Yeah, purdy much sums up alot of what I have been saying since starting this thread almost 3 years ago... I didn't realize that Bectel had recieved so much money, though it being a large corporate donor to the Bush/Cheney administration/regime it is of no wonder... But one thing that Katrina did do is expose just how little interest the Bushites have in providing any level of security for our urban areas... None are prepared for evacuations or for dealing with large situations... It's sad that our governemnt sees fit to spend $12b a month in Iraq but isn't up to the task of protecting it's own citizens... Yeah, as the recent evacuation of New Orleans showed, people get it... The governemnt can't anf ain't gonna do squat so ya' better just get the heck out, even if it means maxing out every credit card you own... It's every man for himself... If Ike hits the Texas coast as a Cat 4 and is still a Cat 3 when it gets to Houston then we are going to witness "Exhibit B" that Bush ain't fixed nuthin'... I hate to say it and I'd doubly hate to see it but that's the way it is... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM KATRINA -- REPORT SAYS MILLIONS WASTED ON NO-BID CONTRACTS FOR KATRINA RECOVERY: According to a report by the Homeland Security Department's office of inspector general, "The government wasted millions of dollars on four no-bid contracts it handed out for Hurricane Katrina work." The Associated Press called the report "the latest to detail mismanagement in the multibillion-dollar Katrina hurricane recovery effort, which investigators have said wasted at least $1 billion." In the new report, investigators cite temporary housing contracts that were "awarded without competition to Shaw Group Inc., Bechtel Group Inc., CH2M Hill Companies Ltd. and Fluor Corp." by the Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA). Investigators found that FEMA "did not always properly review the invoices submitted by the four companies" and "also issued open-ended contract instructions for months without clear guidelines on what work was needed to be done and the appropriate charges," which "wasted at least $45.9 million." Approximately $20 million of the wasted money went towards "a camp for evacuees that was never inspected and proved to be unusable." FEMA said that it "generally agreed" with the report and "would further investigate the $45.9 million in questioned costs and recoup the money as necessary." ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM One of the ironies we encounter everytime we drive north-by-northeast, either during 2006 when bouncing back and forth between temporary and permanent homes in New Orelans and New Jersey, respectively, or more recently as Gustav evacuees: There's a huge parking lot of unused FEMA trailers ~ hundreds of them ~ right alongside Interstate 59 near Laurel, Mississippi. We taxpayers paid for 'em, some company made the deal and collected their price, and the trailers have been sitting unused at least since early 2006 while hundreds, maybe thousands, of displaced families could have taken temporary shelter in them. Good luck recouping those overpayments. I have a hunch that more effort will be put into dunning flood-victim families for one to two thousand "overpaid" dollars apiece than into trying to hit up any campaign-contributing contractors for hundreds of thousands, even a million or two, each. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM Are those the trailers that have those bad fumes in 'um, P-gator??? If so, the way I hear it they are not safe to live in... That's one of the things that bugs me about how the Bush administartion tried to cover their butts in the aftermath of Katrina in buying stuff too late, like hiring truckers to drive all over the county with trailers full of ice, like giving money to corporations that had given money to their campaigh and now we acres and acres of new trailers that taxpayers paid for that are unsafe??? (But, Boberdz... The guy who own the trailer manufacturing company gave all that dough to Buah and is against abortion, too...) Oh??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM Still waiting for the man of facts to reveal his un-named source on Haitian economic statistics. Yes Bobert I am very interested in facts. Give me some and verify the source. Here is another easy question for Bobert: Do all trailers have bad fumes in 'um or just "the ones" that the anti-abortion/pro Bush Boss Hogg guy sold to FEMA? http://abcnews.go.com/US/Health/story?id=3240532&page=1 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:49 AM Here ya go, weisenheimer: http://www.fsmitha.com/world/haiti.htm, which I found in thirteen seconds, states concerning Haiti: Wealth Distribution One percent of the populations owns nearly half of the nation's wealth. The elite live a half-hour's drive from Port-au-Prince, in the mountain suburb of Pétionville, where it is cooler and, according to Jared Diamond, they are "enjoying expensive French restaurants and fine wines." Female to male income rate: 52:100 (from Foreign Policy magazine. Quality of Life Ranks next to last, 110, in the Economist Magazine's 2005 Quality-of-Life index. Female literacy rate (published in 2008): 57 percent. SOURCES: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM Dear Amos: If you care to look, I have already posted the correct figure on who owns what in Haiti base on a BBC article. I am trying to get the fact man, Bobert, to reveal where his fact that "1% hold all the wealth in Haiti" came from, a seemingly impossible task because, like some other Mudcatters, he chooses to dodge perfectly legitimate questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM Tell ya' what, Sawz/Dickey/Old Guy... Rather than you pestering me like a gnat about something that has nothing to do with this thread how about dealing with the real issue which is the ineptness of the Bush ahministartion in making our urban centers safer and his gutting of FEMA and his appointing people to run agancies who were unqualified... You just like being a pest for the sake of being a pest... You can change your name (spots) as much as you want but we all know that you are same ol' pest who would rather divert attention from your hero, George Bush, so that he and his supporters (you) won't have to accept "personal responsibiliy... 1% or 5%... Like who gives a rat's ass??? No one here and you can take that to the bank, unless of course, it's a Haitian bank... lol... Oh yeah, looks as if there are a few US banks you don't wnat any part of either... lol, part 2... Now buzz off and go peddle yer papers... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 12 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM "Are those the trailers that have those bad fumes in 'um, P-gator??? If so, the way I hear it they are not safe to live in..." Actually, any small trailer designed for short-term use (two-week vacation, etc.) has enough formaldehyde in the interior building materials to present a danger to anyone living inside,all day every day, for months and months, especially if they don't air it out regularly. And when you're spending a New Orleans summer in a little tin box parked in front of your gutted home, you will probably keep the A/C running 24/7, with all the windows shut all the time and the doors opened as infreqently as possible. Under those conditions, the accumulating fumes can begin to pose a danger to the very young, very old, and chronically ill. ****************************** More FEMA news, just out in the last 24 hours or so: A couple of days after Gustav hit last week, Chertov made a widely publicized announcement that anyone who had evacuated, was holed up in a hotel/motel, and either legally forbidden or simply unwilling to return home beofre power would be restored, could register with FEMA and FEMA would pick up the bill for lodging, paying the hotel directly. He very specifically stated that it was NOT necessary to prove that your home was damaged ~ you obviously would not know the extent of damage, if any, until able to return. The room-rate payment would not be retroactive, that is, it would not pay for the entire evacuation period, but it would go into effect immediately upon phoning in and registering with FEMA for anyone whose address of record was in a zipcode that had flooded and/or where power had gone out and was not immediatley restored. We had already run out of cash and maxed out two credit cards and were driving home a day before we would be "allowed,": so this would not apply to us. However, a lot of folks who were still in hotels that day and running out of money took Chertof at his word and stayed an extra day or two until given the green light to head home. FEMA has now reneged on this promise, and will pay lodging costs only for registered households whose primary residence had actually sustained substantial damage. Anyone who didn't know their home's status, and who DID know that their local authorities were discouraging them from returning, or even actually blocking the roads, and stayed away ~ they're out of pocket for all their temporary-relocation expenses. Apparently, the part about paying the hotels directly was complete hogwash from the start. What payments will be made will be in the form of reimbursement. For all the emphasis varioius news organizations have given the publically-funded evacuation of the indigent population (and of the lack thereof for Katrina three years ago), folks need to be reminded that the vast majority of evacuees do so in their own vehicles at their own expense. Some have friends or relatives located in some safe and accessble area, but most fill up every available motel room within hundreds of miles, paying full rates and of course also spending plenty more on gas and food. Also, of course, all but the most affluent, corporate workers on salary, are spending all this extra money while NOT bringing anything in for a week or more. Hurricane evacuation is a substantial financial hardship for the middle-to-lower-middle class, and it's an unwelcome extra expense even for those who are better off and can more-or-less afford it. The poor do have endure the least comfortable conditions in their publicly-fnded transporation and shelters, of course, but at least they don't take on much extra expense. (The working poor, of course, lose a paycheck or two, as do all the not-quite-so-poor working families.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM Ya'll "Ike'rs" hear that??? Better read the small print... Ya' know, P-Gator... Why is it that I am not surprised??? I also heard that Gustov wiped out any reswerve cash the Red Cross had... Hmmmmmmm??? I don't like this hurrican one bit and am truely scared for the folks who are going to lose everything as a result of it... Ain't 'sposed to be this way in America... I mean, $3B a week for Iraq and we can't even protect our own people from being wiped pit finacially??? Somethin' real wrong here... real wrong... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 13 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM Bobert I am merely responding to your question "Are you even interetsed in facts, Sawz??? Apparently not..." And I am asking you again where your fact "1% hold all the wealth in Haiti" came from. That fact caught my eye and I am interested in knowing the source. Answer: _______________________________________________
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM Ask until the cows come home, Sawz... It has nothing to do with this thread... You are just trolling and as Joe has pointed out, you are not acting in a civil manner... But then you didn't when you were Dickey or when you were Old Guy or when you were ____________________ or when you were _____________________..... B~ - |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:56 AM I will go by your judgment Joe. You are the boss and you seem to be a fair man. However Bobert asked me a question and I answered it. However he does not like the answer and refuses to answer mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM Get a life, Old Guy/Dickey/whomever... Whatever question I asked I rescend... There, now back to the discussion at hand... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM FEMA has cleaned up its act as well as they could over the past three years, but of course news continues to come out about fatcat busnessmen taking every advantage to exploit government contracts ~ and, of course, every instance of "emergency response" is a near-perfect opportunity to rip off the taxpayer. I'm sure that think-tank hirelings, columnists being paid under the table, and talk-radio demagogues will continue to blame the victims for waste and overspending, not the campaign-contributing corporations who are the major abusers of the system. I wonder if those nasty bigmouths will be any kinder to Texan hurricane victims than they were to us Louisianans. (As recently as this year's Midwestern flooding, they were still on their soapboxes denouncing us and pretending that Iowans would be less dependent upon emergenccy funding than we've been.) This latest population to be wiped out by flooding is only slightly more Caucasian than us in next-door Louisiana, but it's much more Protestant and less Catholic, and their gay minority is less visible. It should be more difficult for the dittoheads of the world to demonize a group they see as "their own" than they did us "un-American" Blacks, Catholics, and gays in Louisiana. Of course, Louisiana voted for Bush, pretty overwhelmingly, in the last two elections, with rural white Louisiana expecially receptive to the neoconservative message. But the talkshow assholes liked to pretend that the 15,000-20,000 poor black folks left behind in New Orleans during Katrina ~ and more specifically, the couple-hundred lawbreaking looters ~ were more representative of our population than the 80,000 homeowners who evacuated at their own expense and, in many ases, lost everything they owned. Now that similar numbers of Texans are having the same experience, I'm curious to see how the right-wing hate-and-fear industry will respond. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM I hate to bring this up, P-Gator but there's some dumbass rules for renting and rebuilding in N.O. that comes right outta an old Jim Crow Play Book... I reckon that the old Klaners are feeling their oats and figure that if they can jus' run the rest of the blacks outta Lousianna then Katrina or Gustov or whatever, Louisana will go Repub for the next million years... Maybe you know somethin' about these things, I donno, but the rumblings ain't stayin' right there in N.O. and folks as far away as Virginia have heard 'bout this stuff... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM There's so much wrong-headed stuff going on hereabouts, Bob, that I'm not sure just which dumbass rules you refer to. The worst of all the federal rules are those which forbid FEMA to provide funding for repairing or building permanent housing, only for temporary lodging (rent payment, hotel bills). I can see how this was originally intended, to prevent pork-barrel-type profiteering by building contractors, and also as a measure against favoritism for property owners as opposed to renters, but in a situation where so very much of a region's housing stock has been badly damaged, and where recovery is so certain to take years rather than months, it leads to incredible waste. People were stuck in motel rooms for months and months, unable to cook and forced to spend money they didn't have on eating out. Meanwhile, houses that could be undergoing repair sat festering and falling into worse and worse condition every day. Nothing "Jim Crow" about that, not even unintentionally. If more black folks than white are affected, it's only because more than half the population of New Orleans is of African descent (and, or course, an even higher percentage of the poor ~ not a surprise and not unlike any other American city, although probably less so.) Not all the poor are black, however, and not all the blacks are poor. We have a very large black middle class and upper-middle class population ~ including the political ruling class ~ and of course there are also plenty of white folks of modest means. No one is exempt from the suffering |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:34 PM The one I was refering to, P-Gator, has something to do with not being able to rent unless you have blood releatives who once owned or rented in that area... Ya' heard of that one??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM "if you vote Dem and the Derms take back either house of Congress, yer gonna find out that what I've been able to get against the boy wil pale in comparision to what the Congressional comittee, with supena powers, will get" Will somebody fill me in on what the Derms have done to punish GWB for his clusterfuck? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:12 AM 51/49 ain't gonna punish anyone as long as it takes 60 votes to cut off a fillibuster... PoliSci 101... BTW, P-Gator... I understand that a N.O.landlord was jailed for renting to some black folks and ended up putting them out as a condition of his sentence... I'm in SC on vacation so I don't have access to my files but when I get home I'll reread that article and thrown some facts of the case at ya'... Meanwhile, I reckon we'll see just what level of "protection" the American people have from the losses from Ike... Outta be an eye-opener... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM Would somebody fill me in on what, in regards to Bush and Katrina, was filibustered? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:41 PM Read yer own posts, Sawz... You asked what the Dems have done to make Bush pay for his clusterf*cks and I pointed out that there is little the Dems can do with only a 51/49 majority in the Senate... Purdy simple to figure out... It ain't been the Dems on the fillibusterin' side of late... It's been the threats from the Repbs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM A local politician in suburban St. Bernard Parish ~ predominantly working-class and almost entirely white ~ proposed an ordinance outlawing the conversion of homes that were owner-occupied before Katrina into rental property, with the only exceptions allowed being rental within the owner's family. There was a lot of controversy, public discussion, etc., much of it on racial themes ~ that the motive was to exclude black renters from the parish. I'm sure that a degree of racism was a factor, especially unconscious racism, but it was not the primary motivation. In any event, the proposed ordinance did not pass. There were out-of-state real estate speculators buying up properties in badly-flooded St. Bernard really cheap in the aftermath of the storm. The relatively few people who had returned to fix up and reoccupy their homes and their communities ~ which had always, since they were built in the late 1940s, been composed of homeowners ~ were understandably concerned about half the properties on each of their blocks being bought up for development by investors living in Florida. St. Bernard is just "below" (downriver from) and adjacent to the lower 9th ward, is in the same flood "basin" at an even lower elevation, and had many more properties sitting in much deeper water. The lower 9 gets a lot of public attention, deservedly enough, for a number of reasons: ~ The area immediately next to the Industrial Canal level-break was hit by a huge, explosive, fast-moving wall of water that blew houses off their foundations, turned cars and trucks upside-down, and generally created the most amazing photo ops of the whole disaster. ~ The Lower 9th is (or was) the entire nation's leading neighborhood in terms of black home-ownership, while at the same time being a very poverty-stricvken area. Almost every home in the area was inherited by its occupants, and many were built "by hand" by the father or grandfather. St. Bernard was arguably more throughly damaged than any part of New Orleans, but is more generally "forgotten" by the media and the outside world, and the citizens have a bit of a chip on their collective shoulder. ****************************** I've heard nothing about a landlord in New Orleans being thrown in jail for renting to anyone, black or white. Some of them probaly should be thrown in jail for jacking up their rents and evicting long-time residents so they can get their new higher prices from newcomers. These are instances where relatively affluent people (those who own multiple properties) are taking advantage of the less fortunate, but it has nothing to do with race. In fact, most landlords in New Orleans are African-American, just as most people, and almost all elected officials, are black. Also, most landlords in New Orleans, white and black alike, are pretty small-time capitalists who inherited their houses ~ could never have afforded to buy more than one home ~ and in very many cases only own one structure, living in one half of a double (two-family house) while renting out the other side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:37 PM So I assume that the "Congressional comittee, with supena powers" got nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM Tell me what good supena powers are when the Bush administration thinks they are invitations to be accepted or ignored??? Yo, P-Gator... Just a few more days of vacation and I'll be "back on the farm"... (Rememeber it??? Well, it's changed alot since you were there...) I'll reread my material and throw some of it into the mix here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM OK. Folks voted Dem and the Derms took back either house of Congress, but no subpoenas, no filibusters and nothing "gotten" on the Boy. Got it. Next prediction? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:21 AM Yeah, I predict that Sawz will soon either starve to death in the "Pointless Forest" or find someone elses heels to nip at her in Mudville... Or both... BTW, Howz the new 'n improved FEMA doing in Texas??? How did that National Response Plan work out??? Hmmmmmm??? Where's Brownie??? Where's Elmo??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM Noe that you mention FEMA, how did FEMA get to be part of DHS? Who demanded that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:32 PM FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was established in 1979 under President Jimmy Carter, a consolidation of functions performed by a number of Federal agencies. In response to the attacks of September 11, 2001, Congress passed the Homeland Security Act of 2002, and FEMA was absorbed into the new Department of Homeland Security in 2003. I did security clearance investigations on FEMA disaster workers for a number of years, and I was very impressed by the caliber of employee FEMA was able to hire for temporary jobs. I'd guess most FEMA workers stayed at a disaster site for two or three months, but some were around for 6 months. Many were retired experts from a variety of professions, particularly the building trades and building insprection, and engineering. They really enjoyed their work and were very enthusiastic about wanting to help people recover from disasters. They were creative, interesting people - and they had a lot of good stories to tell. A parallel agency was the Disaster Branch of the Small Business Administration, which processed low-interest recovery loans for victims of disasters (FEMA workers arrived first and gave grants for short term needs, and SBA came later and handled loans for the long-term needs of recovery). I also did clearances for SBA - SBA people tended to be younger, attorneys and people who had come from the banking industry. I lived with two SBA disaster workers for about 15 months in 1992-93. One was an attorney - he spent about a year in Hawaii and Guam after Hurricane Iniki. The other had been a business specialist with Dun & Bradstreet - she spent a good amount of time in Guam. I think the FEMA people had more interesting jobs, since they were more closely involved with immediate recovery after a disaster. The SBA people did a lot of paperwork. I retired in 1999 and quit part-time work in the summer of 2001, so I don't know what's happened to these programs since the establishment of the Department of Homeland Secruity. I don't think absorption into DHS is a bad idea, since it gives disaster relief representation on the Cabinet. However, I get the impression the entire federal bureaucracy has been in a demoralized state under the Bush Administration. Bush has poured all resources into Defense, and everything else has been on the back burner since 2002. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM Here's the Bush/McCain plan. Get rid of New Orleans and replace it with condominiums and gambling casinos. That way you eliminate the "sinful" New Orleans and replace it with a "morally acceptable" alternative. FEMA can help in this endeavor by doing nothing and letting "god's will" take its course. Put those recalcitrant victims in barbed wire compounds or cheap trailers and subject them to chemical poisoning. Let Blackwater patrol the streets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:53 PM FEMA Says State Must Pay $30 Million Louisiana officials are stumped. Do officials in our Office of Homeland Security owe the federal government more than 30 million dollars? The feds sent the bill Wednesday for money paid out in the form of grants for a federal flood buyout program. Three former Louisiana Homeland Security employees who oversaw the program are currently under federal indictment. The state says we don't owe the money back. But they say if we do, the individual parishes the grants went to will have to pay back the money. Mark Smith, Dept. of Homeland Security said, "Would I call it a public relations nightmare? Yes." It was just a matter of time before the bill was sent to the state following its handling of federal FEMA flood buyout monies. The government says more than 30 million was misspent by the state through the Office of Emergency Preparedness between 1997 and 2002. Three former high level employees of the office are under federal indictment for charges related to the handling of those FEMA funds. "Really its not that the money was misspent here or the money was misspent there," says Smith. "It's going to be, in a lot of the cases, a matter of improper paperwork." According to the letter, the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Office of Emergency Preparedness failed to properly assess project eligibility, rank properties consistently with state priorities, and verify that projects met the criteria for priority funding. "We'll have to look at each individual parish and possibly go back to them for money." According to Joanne Moreau, Director of the East Baton Rouge Parish Homeland Security, East Baton Rouge will be asked to pony up 3.6 million dollars. Moreau says she has requested documentation from the state to prove what they owe. East Baton Rouge Parish applied for their own grants and did not enlist the help of private companies like Aegis Innovative Solutions. Aegis contracted with many of the parishes who will be asked to pay back the money. Aegis is owned by former Office of Emergency Preparedness employees. Moreau says she believes the letter from FEMA clearly asks the state to re-pay that money. In other words, it's a state issue and not a parish by parish issue. We also asked the state Homeland Security Office to show us the documentation the federal government used to come up with that 30 million dollar figure. They agreed to show us, but not until Thursday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM How many dead bodies from Katrina were found? It seems like that number is a national secret. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM Yer right, Strings.... New Orleans has been conducting "ethnic cleansing" since Katrina... Laws have been enacted to keep blacks from inhabiting certain neighborhods one one hand while others are being arresting and held up to 90 days without hearings... It is disgracefull... What is equally disgracefulll is that the media couldn't care less about reporting what is going on in New Orleans... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM Well Well Well Bobert. Did you check out the levees in N.O. while you was there to see if Obama has them up to snuff? With all your fair mindedness, I sure wouldn't want you to have to attack him for not fixing something he inherited. I seen him campaigning down there with his coat off and everything making his election promises about how he is going to swing into action like the Taz as soon as he gets elected. Speakin' of Katrina, Here is a Progressive and a Greenie presidential candidate that has quite a tale to tell about Katrina: Cynthia McKinney said during a public press conference is that a mother contacted her in 2005. The woman's son purportedly had job with the Department of Defense and processed the bodies of 5,000 people who died from a single bullet wound to the head, and later dumped in a swamp in Louisiana. This man reportedly signed an agreement of silence to never discuss any of this, and further, the data about these murdered individuals was entered into Pentagon computers. McKinney said she has verification of the alleged crime by insiders at the Red Cross who wish to remain anonymous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Mar 10 - 05:03 PM Oh yeah... I checked 'um out... Purdy cool system but cooler than that was New Orleans itself... The Garden District is the "shits"... I mean, awesomely nice gardens and beautiful, yet electric, achitecture... The bridge oveb Lake Poncitraine leading to the North Shore was something to behold... That thing must be close to 15 miles long... The street musicans were a hoot... I got to meet up with Blind Troy and jammed with this drummer in another part of the French Quarter... It's a real shame that George Bush was blowin' so much smoke up America's ass after 9/11 about being ready for the next disaster... I mean, I don't blame Bush for Katrina or the flooding but his National Response Plan was junk... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Mar 10 - 05:26 PM Oh, I almost forgot a couple of things... First, don't get the BBQ'd shrimp anywhere 'cause it's like in this soupy hot sauce with the shells on... Very messy but that's they way them New Aww'leens folk like 'um... Second of all, had a nice talk with one of the editorial writers on the Times-Picayune about Katrina and he was very appreciative of some of the comments I made to him... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:54 PM BTW, on my way to New Aww'leens I passed an area in Mississippi (maybe Alabama) right next to the interstae where all the FEMA traiolers are being stored... It was an awesome site... Thousands of them lined up... I was thinking, "Hmmmmmm, that represents alot of money... Too bad that they were filled with toxins and unsafe and too bad that the Bush administration didn't take the time to be sure that, even tho it was way too late, to be sure that the federal government wasn't getting fleeced..." But fleecing governments is what George cut his teeth on... Hell, he bungled everything he touched until he and a bunch of lawyers, accountants and crooks fleeced Arlington, Texas... Then Geiorge went a step further and fleeced the IRS??? Danged, son!!! That is some serouss fleecin'... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 29 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM Bobert: The one and only question was how are the levees. Instead of an honest answer I get an anti Bush hate speech. First you say GWB took too long and then you say he didn't take the time. Why was there toxins in those trailers? Who shot those 5000 people in the head? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM Ya know, Sawzer, it's a darned shame that neither Bobert nor I are willing to kowtow to your imperious interrogatories. We just don't answer up like good Charlie McCarthy types oughter. Dang. Maybe it's that "freedom of speech" gene which includes the freedom NOT to speak to snide antagonisms. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 29 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM Who do you think was responsible for those people being shot in the head, Sawzaw? Are you going to try to blame it on Obama? Keep in mind that the federal government appears to have had at least some involvement in what happened to those people, and also the fact that it was George W Bush who was president at the time (or Dick Cheney). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 29 Mar 10 - 01:35 PM And while we're at it, are you trying to blame the toxins in the trailers on Obama, too? GW Bush was president during Hurricane Katrina, not Barack Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM I'm amazed that this thread is still alive; and kinda glad too. Despite some very transparent efforts to hush things up, it has become pretty well documented that the Army Corps of Engineers had, for years, fallen short in designing the levee system and ~ more significantly ~ in assuring that the existing designs were executed properly by the contractors they hired. Unfortunately, some elements within the Corps continue to spend their time and our money on trying to excuse and/or cover-up past transgressions rather than to work at fixing thimgs for the next storm. Also, for years and years, Congress (both parties) has refused to fully fund flood-protection proposals for this area. On the other hand, the repaired floodwalls on the Industriasl Canal held up during Hurricain Gustav a couple of years ago, under conditions very similar to those under which they caved during and immediately after Katrina. Also, the vast majority of the people working at Corps HQ in New Orleans live here and have an obvious vested interest in getting it right, finally. I have no doubt that some cops were so freaked by the surreal conditions of that first week after the flood that they killed a number of innocent people. An especially notorious bunch are just now finally being brought to trial for the killings at the Danzinger Bridge. But I don't for a minute believe that urban legend bullshit about 5,000 indidviduals all vicitmized by the same kind of headshot. And even if true, that would have nothing at all to do with one or the other Presidential administration or political party. Anyone interested in the truth, and in reasonable discussion of these issues, should check out: www.levees.org. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:45 PM Hmmmmmmm??? Let's see... How many folks died during Katrina??? 2000??? 1800??? And of those 1800 to 2000, 5000 were shot in the head???? Hmmmmm??? Better talk "Math 101" with "Critical Thinking 101", Swaz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 29 Mar 10 - 07:06 PM McKinney is saying they were probably prisoners, and that this information was entered in a Pentagon database. I don't know if I would dismiss it out of hand. I think more investigation might not be a bad idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:03 AM Bobert response to someone who wouldn't answer his questions: Apr 08 - 2008 "Well, then why won't you friggin' answer my questions with anything but BS questions??? What do you have to hide???" "She absolutely refuses to answer straight up questions... She runs like "pigs from a gun" and then plays her little games by not answering the questions but rather ask a multitude of meaningless rhetorical questions of her own" "All I can see is someone filled with hate who won't come clean" Also this proves he can type perfectly when he wants to. It is just his little cute game to type like an idiot. The toxins are in all those types of trailers, not just the ones bought under the Bush administration but Bobert wants it to look like Bush caused the toxins to be there. Amos's feelings are hurt cause I found two big ass, dumb ass mistakes in his frantic postings and his supreme being status is now tarnished. CC is pissed cause her beloved ACORN went down the tubes because of internal wrongdoing and mismanagement. Now she's got her claws out itchin' for a fight. Bobert don't want to respond to McKinney's fairy tale because it might expose his Green Party as being a bunch of nuts. I never said anybody was shot in the head. That was McKinney. I am glad Poppagator has his head on straight and looking for the truth. People should be looking for the truth, admitting their mistakes and quit this stupid ass he's all good or all bad tribal mentality. The world is not going to get any better until people quit looking for scapegoats and demons to blame everything on. Sure Bush screwed up, Brownie screwed up, Nagin screwed up, Blanco screwed up. Who did their job perfectly or even passably? NO has plenty of corruption to go around. My Daughter was married there in the Garden District. She went to Loyola. I know something about the place and I know it was an accident waiting to happen with crooked politics like any city. They played games with money for the levees. If any improvements are to be made in the situation we would have to sort out all the screw ups and take steps to prevent them from happening again. Right now it is a race to see which politician can make the most promises and send the most money to insure their re election. And where does the money go? Mostley down a rat hole. Oh you poor people, so and so fucked you over so bad, I am going to fix it. Yeah, The Big Easy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Mar 10 - 08:38 AM Yo, p-gator... Are you familiar with Jarvis DeBerry of the "Times-Piiayune"??? Nice guy and purdy danged smart, too... BTW, Slawz... Any post of yours that begins with accusatory language doesn't get read by me... And I would guess just about everyone else so... Knock yerself out spending hours putting together these bill-of-particular-attacks 'cuase it's your right... Just thought you'd like to know in case you have anything else to do with yer life but obsess on me... But believe me, people are shooting right past yer posts like it was a radiation pit... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM Oh really, Sawzaw? You think I only became an activist after ACORN was closed down? You're not very observant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:29 AM Ignore him, Carol... He adds nothing to any discussion... He is a troll and only into attacking people from the safety of cyberworld... But you are correct in yer assessment that he doesn't really have a clue what people have done in their lives... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM The accusatory language was yours Bobert. Bobert runs like "pigs from a gun". He makes all kinds of ad hominem attacks on people that won't answer his straight up questions but weasels out when it is his turn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:41 AM "You think I only became an activist after ACORN was closed down? " No I don't. "But I don't for a minute believe that urban legend bullshit about 5,000 individuals all victimized by the same kind of headshot." Bravo Poppagator. Let's see if some others can break their code of silence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM Thanks for the shout-out, Sawz. But before anyone gets the idea that you and I are completely "on the same page," let me hasten to defend my friends at ACORN. That bullshit trumped-up "documentary" video was a complete sham. That punk college-boy filmmaker brought his girlfriend into those offices with a story that she used to be a prostitiute, and that he was making it his personal mission to save her from her pimp(s), or whatever. Now, when confronted with this story, some of the ACORN workers may have given advice that stretched the law a little bit here and there, while of course most of them (not included in the final cut, of course) kept things strictly legal. But the falsehood that the ACORN folks were responding to a couple intent upon setting up a whorehouse operation ~ that was ALL fabricated in the editing room. This has all been verified and, for what it's worth, published. Of course, retractions never get nearly the widespread publicity as the original lies that need to be retracted. And meanwhile, the Faux-News propaganda machine has been so successful in turning "ACORN" into a dirty word that no one, including a whole passel of chickenshit Democrats who should know better, would come to their defense. Since then, young Mr. Hotshot Rightwing Filmmaker has been busted breaking into Senator Landrieu's office with some new chicanery in mind. The latest news is that he's getting off with a plea bargain, so the whole story will never come out in court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Mar 10 - 05:23 PM Yeah, p-gator...When the FBI pulls off one of these it's called a sting... When private citizens pull one of these things off it is called vigilante... You know, the same thing they called the mobs who got together to lynch black men during the Jim Crow days... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM My understanding is that they waked in during normal business hours. Do you call that "breaking into"? Was anything broken? I do think they went over the line though. I'll Bet we are on the same page on this. Acorn did some good work. Paying taxes wasn't one of them. Always telling people to tell the truth wasn't one of them. I keep saying over and over to no avail to the all bad all good crowd: People have to be able to recognize the good in anybody as well as the bad. I mean, Damn, even rattlesnakes have some uses. But there again. Bobert has managed to bring his bogotry, racism and hatred into the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 01 Apr 10 - 05:43 PM Hah! Crawfish and Californicated Zydeco? Yes indeed! I have no doubt that some ACORN employees, moved by a much more sympathetic bullshit story than the one we were originally been given to believe, may indeed have advised a young man purportedly trying to "save" a young girl from exploitation to stretch the law a bit to achieve his "praiseworthy" goal. It's certainly not unknown for folks of ALL economic classes to "work the system" to their best advantage. When poor folks who genuinely deserve (x) amount of food stamps can find a way to get (1.2 x) dollars worth, it IS technically illegal, but so what?. Some of their loudest critics, of course, hire high-priced accoutnants every April to make sure that when they genuinely owe (y) dollars in taxes, they only pay (1/10 y), or less, or nothing. Of course, hardly anyone ever condemns them for that (not even me, usually). |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM Bug off, Squalkz.. My bigotry and racism??? Hey, I ain't the one defending the racist and bigots... You are... The Republican Party itself is a bigoted and racist party... That's why very few blacks folks want any part of it... You party fought agasinst civil right... Hatred??? Yeah, add I hate hypocrits and liars to the list... Yer right, P-gator... The rich only pay as much tax as they want... I know of an accountant who asks his clients "How much do you wnat to pay this year, Ralph???" Then he makes the tex return work out that way thru loans and other trickery... I used him one year... Played it straight up... Coulda payed less... Didn't matter... It's what I owed... Just needed him to help straighten out some difficukt stuff... But I didn't take the *dodge* after he expalined it to me... Just didn't seem right even if it was legal... BTW, P-gator... Do you know that op-ed guy I asked you about at the N.O. T-Pic??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:56 AM The Pelican Institute's Steve Beatty reports that the federal government just filed a new $548,000 lien against ACORN for unpaid payroll taxes. This comes at the same time as Louisiana Attorney General Buddy Caldwell investigates the group for unpaid state payroll taxes. According to Beatty, his adds to the existing tax debt of more than $1 million. Read more Republicans passed the civil rights bills of Civil Rights Act of 1866, extending the rights of emancipated slaves Civil Rights Act of 1871, also known as the Ku Klux Klan Act Civil Rights Act of 1875, prohibiting discrimination in "public accommodations"; found unconstitutional in 1883 Civil Rights Act of 1957, establishing the Civil Rights Commission Civil Rights Act of 1960, establishing federal inspection of local voter registration polls Civil Rights Act of 1964, prohibiting discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin by federal and state governments as well as some public places While racists like Byrd fillibustered them. More evidence of Bobert's racism and bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: PoppaGator Date: 02 Apr 10 - 02:05 PM No one is going to argue against the Party of Lincoln, or even that of Eisenhower. But a whole lot of us, not just here in Mudcat land, see something else entirely in the current crop of Republican politicians and pundits. It's also a fairly well-known historical fact that for over a century between the civil war and the civil rights movement, the Democratic Party maintained a stranglehold on the (voting) South by providing a home for its segregationist white majority. Things started to change pretty quickly with the advent of Nixon's "Southern Strategy," which saw virtually every white-supremecist "Dixiecrat" switch parties. While it is obvious incorrect, and an oversimplification, to maintain that every Republican is a racist and a bigot, it's not far from the truth to observe that any and every racist and bigot who is moved to join one or the other political party is most likely going to be heartily welcomed by the GOP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM I think Poppgator has a point. One Party today consistently repudiates the racists. The other does not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:15 PM You just can't get enough lieing in, can you Slawz... Me seriously thinks that in addition to yer OCD personality disorder that pathological liar runs a close second... As for your Republican Party of the 1860s, you have some seroius gaps in your understyanding of the historical roles of the parties, as well, and I'd suggest a refresher course at yer local community college just for starters... You also don't even have a grasp of more recent history which is unexpianable... Maybe you'd like to tell the good folks why black people don't seem to have much need for the Republican Party of ***today***??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:46 AM Yeah, here is just what Bobert has been waiting for so he can launch another hate filled attack. A man with a chip on his shoulder the size of a Sequoia tree because his grand and glorious days of ridin' da bus are over. It's over but he just won't let it go. He still wants to perpetuate racism so he can be the big expert in the field. The racial elitist. Lie Lie Lie, hate hate hate. A serious OCD. Bobert hates any body he disagrees with him but I don't hate Bobert. I just disagree with his policies. Now that Bobert has vented his pent up, has been, hostility, let's get back to a sane and cordial discussion. "every white-supremecist "Dixiecrat" switch parties." Who were they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:37 AM See, Slawz... Here's the problem I have with you... You have a reality problem... How many times do I have to say to you that I don't "hate" anyone before it sets in??? I hate the sins but not the sinner... We've had this discussion before but what you do is try to get away with making this "Bobert hates you because_________" assertion because, I donno??? What, if I don't call you on it it becomes, ahhhhh, factual??? As for "sane, cordial discussion"??? Try it sometime... You don't wnat todiscuss squat... What you want to do is go thru someone else's post and try to find some insignificant detail and turn the discussion into a discussion of that insignifican detail... This is what Teribus did during the entire debate in the lead up to the invasion of Iarq..l. He tried his best to derail any and every thread that was a "sane, cordial discussion" by trying to highjack the threads into his little narrow minded, tuinnel vision viwepoint... Of course you don't see that is what you do, Slaws, but that is exactly what you do... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:41 PM Well Bobert, a discussion involves answering questions which you avoid at all costs. You have a whole list of excuses like: "it does not matter" "the real question is" "that is just a detail" "go and do this and this and you will find out the answer" Reality consists of details. When you start skipping the details, you start losing reality. Accuracy requires details. Lack of details results in sloppiness and fuzzy logic. When someone else misses things that you classify as a detail for yourself, you call them a liar. Do you notice I never call anybody a liar? To me that is the equvalent of "I have lost all respect for what you say" How can you respect anybody that will not admit when they are wrong? I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I human, not an elitist who always knows best and never wrong on anything. How can you respect anybody that contradicts themselves and tries to gloss over it? When I point out to you where you have contradicted yourself you get mad. I would mant to know if I contradicted myself. How can you respect anybody that is constantly claiming someone hates somebody else and wants to kill them, then claim someone else is projecting. How can you respect somebody that berates someone else for breaking the law and brags when they themselves break the law. I remember we had a deal once where you were going to find the source of the "gold plated M16 rifle" given to Saddam Hussein by Rumsfeld. You were going to apologize if you couldn't find it. I was going to apologize if you did find it. Did you find it? Personally I think you come here and throw stinkbombs, like you admitted, and than have a lot of fun with the controversy you stir up. You started a whole thread to bully Teribus about the war in Iraq then you accuse him of hijacking threads. I am beginning to wonder about the moonshine. I don't believe you are stupid enough to drink moonshine and talk about it. I wonder if that is just another cute game. Now if you want to have a discussion, who were these Dixiecrats? I have looked and I can't get a handle on how many there were and what they did but it seems to be an important point and needs some more details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:33 PM When the questions border on harassment for thhe sake of highjacking threads, yeah... You ain't gonna get too many folks who want to argue over how many angels can dance on the end of a pin... As for stinkbombs??? Yeah, that was like 6 or 7 years ago when I came in here once in awhile... Seven year in cyberworld is like generations but you still are consumed with a flipant comment that was made tounge in cheek a long, long, time ago... But you hang on to it as if is the combination to the locks of Fort Knox... Ya' see, Slawz, that in most psycologist's book is obessessive compulsive disorder material... Seriously... I was a social worker in "adult services", meaning that I delt with a lotta of very nutty people... (PM Janie... She'll tell you what kind of folks I delt with... Same that she deals with now)... Anyway, I learned quite a bit about mental illness and, no offense, but yer obsession with me is right there at the doorstep, Slawz... As for bullying, Teribus??? It can't be done... Everyone who has had dealing with the man will tell you that... Hey, T and I had alot of very heated discussions about the wisdom of going into Iraq... As it turned out, I was right and he wasn't but hey??? The point I was making about T-Bird is one that you are in denial over and that is your desire to destract "sane, cordial discussion" with meanlingless details... Okay, they may mean something to you but taken in the greater context of the thread, that are meaningless... Hey, it's not as if we all do a little drifting from time to time... But you have "drifted too far from the shore" (folk song)... What else??? Oh yeah... Moonshine... It's some good stuff and maybe if you tried a little you'd loosen up, Baby... I mean, I mighta found myself living and working for several years with primarially black people but I grew up in Virginia with white people, many of whom today are the reddeest of rednecks... I understand rednecks... I also understand mountain people (hillbillies) and moutain people like their shine and when you around folks you do learn to take in a little of the culture... I like shine and I like "mergal huntin'" and I like growin' me a few pot plants in the mountain which I live on... I like tobe back in the mountain... Something kinda spiritual... Kinda like a good shot of moonshine... But I don't reckon you'd understand that, Slawz... Too bad fir you... I mean, I like my hillbilly friends and I like a shot of shine, too... Ain't no hillbilly-wantabee-here... This is who I am... Yeah, I've had to do a little educatin' on some of my friends but hillbillies has got good hearts... Rednecks... Not so good... very angry people... Mountain people ain't... Very mellow... Some good pickers, too.. The Dixiecrats??? There were a shitload of them... All ya gotta do is Google up Dixiecrat and you'll get the entire history... They mostly dead now but their descendents are now the backbone of the "Southern Stategy", i.e. Repubs... Lundon Johnson was right about the Civil Rights Act killing off the Democratic Party in the South... Yup, sho nuff right... That about it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 04 Apr 10 - 01:54 AM Bobert, I googled up dixiecrats and it said there were 35 of them but nothing else. You talked about everything and how you are so much smarter you are so you don't need to answer questions or support your facts but it would have been easier to answer the question I asked. The "go here and do this excuse" I remember we had a deal once where you were going to find the source of the "gold plated M16 rifle" given to Saddam Hussein by Rumsfeld. You were going to apologize if you couldn't find it. I was going to apologize if you did find it. Did you find it? Ordinary people admit their mistakes instead of stating their life experiences as some sort of reason that they are not really mistakes at all just minor details. What is the medical term for that? UNDERSTANDING THE IRRATIONAL MIND A LONG DEFINITION Irrationals are those who, when presented with evidence that contradicts their belief, will employ all means possible to reject the evidence, and as a last resort will simply deny it. Rationals, on the other hand, when confronted with evidence that contradicts their belief, will weigh the evidence, and IF the new evidence is superior to that upon which their belief is based, will replace the old belief with the new. IRRATIONAL V. RATIONAL What motivates the irrational mind to protect their beliefs in the face of any and all evidence? The "Ego" which always seeks to grow ever larger. And, in fact, that is exactly what it does. That is why the irrational person will NEVER, EVER admit they are wrong under ANY circumstances. theskepticarena.com/archives/archive007.doc |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Apr 10 - 07:41 AM So your last post is yer "Exhibit A" on how to have a "sane, cordial discussion", Slawz... What, are you brain dead??? You just don't get concepts at all, do you... You have no interest in a discussion whats-so-ever... All you want to do is play the Fact-checker-from-Hell... The problem with this is that you will take a post that has many valid, sane, cordial points and go thru it with a fine tooth comb looking for anything that you might find somewhere in cyberworld to refute it and then throw in long cut and posts about an insignificant detail that really had very little bearing on the "sane, cordial discussion" that you say you want and make that insignificant detail the new meaning of the thread??? That is what you do over and over and over here.... You are the ultimate thread highjacker... Bet yer no fun at a party 'cause yer the guy who buts into other discussions and changes the subject... Know anyone like that, Slawz??? Go check out the mirror 'cause that is you to a tee... Throw in you obsession with me and, yeah, you are a pest... Not someone who wnats to have a sane, cordial discussion at all... Just a pest... Like a carpenter bee buzzin' around yer face when you finally get under the car to swap out a starter motor and there it is... buzz, buzz, buzz... And, BTW, when someone does take the time to actaully engage you in some "critical thinking" as I did on the 1-in-5-children claim you are incapable of making that effort and just refuse... I mean, it's one think to be ignorant but quite another to want to stay ignorant when someone makes an argument thatmight lead you to question some of the sources that you pick in yer little fact-checker-from-Hell game... And yes... It is a game for you... One, BTW, that is growing tiresome to play... Me thinks you should just copy what I have writtren here and show it to yer shrink and maybe you can make some progress toward being able to hold a "sane, cordial discussion" 'cause right now??? You are completely incapable... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:50 PM Bobert: I want to discuss this matter, plain and simple. I keep reading about how these Dixiecrats are proof of something. I want to know the details to see if the facts about the Dixiecrats support the conclusion about what they did. This is critical thinking. It is questioning. You say I should question things. I am trying. I promise not to make any personal attacks or use rhetoric, just simple facts. Diverting the discussion of facts by telling someone they need to do something is a diversionary tactic. The way you arrive at the truth is by determining what is a fact and what is not a fact. Does that cause a problem for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:38 PM Then start a thread on Dixiecrats, Sawz... This thread is about the botched job the Bush administration did after 9/11 on creating a structure to deal with national emergenicies, including Bush's National Reponse Plan which turned out to be nuthin' more than BS created by folks who were his appointeees... Totally bogus... But now that you seem interested in the Dixiecrats, I would invite you to go to the library and use a computer that isn't corrupted with givin' you right wing BS web-sites and blogs and do a little research... I'll be more than happy to jump in when time permits... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Apr 10 - 12:01 AM As usual Bobert does not want to venture any information. Firstly because he has none and secondly because he likes to attack others rather that do any work presenting facts except for Bobert "facts". He'll spend hours typing all kinds of excuses to avoid producing information that would only take a few minutes and then says he does not have the time to give an answer. Another avoidance is to send people out on a mission to find facts for him cause he is to lazy to write down what he claims to know. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Perfessor Bobert. Are you going to give your lecture on Dixiecrats 101 today? What? Go to the library? Hummm Looks like you are pretty worthless as a source of information. Unless it is a political attack. "I've got a file that's a half inch thick and countin'.... Well over a 100 pages of stuff, all related to Katrina..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:39 PM Sawz, Sawz, Sawz... Man, that was some heavy stuff there... I mean, yer attacks on me are really getting very entertaining... But for the record, the Bush administration (after 9/11) put together the "National Response Plan" to provide emergency assistence to any community that would be so overtaken by a disaster (think 9/11 here, Sawz...) that it's resources were not sufficient for that community to weather the disaster... Katrina proved that Bush's plan (think reasons for going into Iraq here) was nothing more than a figment of Bush's own imagination... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 11 Apr 10 - 12:44 AM In other words, Bobert knows squat about Dixiecrats |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Apr 10 - 07:58 AM No, Sawz... Start another thread on Dixiecrats if you want to talk about them... This thread is about Bush's failings after 9/11 to govern in a way that made our country safer... But we can do Dixiecrats... Might of fact, seeing as you have this very distroted view of the history of political parties, a little review for you wouldn't hurt you at all... Now back to Katrina... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:55 AM Washington Post / ABC Poll: Federal response to Gulf spill rated lower than Katrina efforts Jun 07, 2010 More Americans are critical of how the U.S. government has handled the Gulf oil spill than were of the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, according to a new ABC News/Washington Post poll. Six weeks after the spill began, 69% rate the federal response negatively, compared with 62% who did so two weeks after the August 2005 hurricane. Nearly two-thirds, or 64%, support the pursuit of criminal charges against British Petroleum and other companies involved in the USA' worst oil spill. Four-fifths, or 81%, rate BP's response negatively. The poll of 1,004 U.S. adults was conducted Thursday through Sunday, mostly before BP announced that a containment cap on the well is collecting a substantial portion of the leaking oil. Still, nearly three-fourths, or 73% percent, see "unnecessary risks taken by BP and its drilling partners as a significant factor in the spill. The same share also call the Deepwater Horizon spill a major environmental disaster, up from 55% in a Pew Research Center poll a month ago. This view is held almost equally by Republicans as by Democrats. Yet, the poll, which has a 3.5 percentage point error margin, finds Democrats less critical of the federal response; about 56% rate it negatively, compared with 81% for Republicans. President Obama said Monday that capturing the leaking oil will take months and cleaning up the environmental and economic damage will take even longer, reports USA TODAY colleague David Jackson. "What is clear is that the economic impact of this disaster is going to be substantial, and it is going to be ongoing," Obama said after a Cabinet meeting at the White House. He called on BP to be "quick and responsive" to damage claims from residents and business people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:54 AM Here is a pertinent fact: "Six weeks after the spill began, 69% rate the federal response negatively, compared with 62% who did so two weeks after the August 2005 hurricane." Note that this Gulf mess poll was taken SIX weeks after the spill; the Katrina poll was taken TWO weeks after the storm. Might it be that at two weeks people figured that things would get rapidly better in the region? Didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM There was an excellent piece in yesterday's Post on this subject written by Eugene Robinson... He went down the time line of just what the Obama Administration has done in terms of a federal response to the oil spill and it is purdy incredible... Maybe Eb can find it and do a link to it... But Eugene's observation is that inspite of all that the feds have done since the spill the Obama administration hasn't done enough to blow it's own horn... Yeah, I'm not too sure why Obama is unwilling to get out there and do the PR but it is becoming a problem for his administration... I mean, it's great to respond forcefully to situations but if ya' ain't out there selling, like George Bush was so good at, then the perception is that you aren'ty doing anything, which in this case is contrary to the facts... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM I didn't find the article Bobert refers to but here is one that also clearly delineates Obama's actions since he learned of the Gulf spill. Timeline Contradicts "Obama's Katrina" |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: mousethief Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM The people who bitch about Obama not doing enough about the oil spill are the same people who bitch the federal government is too big and takes too many things on itself that should be done by the states. Which is it? Go away and get your priorities straightened out, then come back and admit which you were wrong on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: pdq Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:00 PM ...the site that Ebs just linked to is: "Media Matters for America (MMFA), a 'Web-based, not-for-profit progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media,' was founded by David Brock in mid-April 2004. Along with former MoveOn consultant Tom Matzzie and John Podesta's Center for American Progress, it is behind Progressive Media, a liberal messaging campaign launched in 2008 and expanded in 2009 to become a 'war room' for promoting the foreign and domestic policies of Barack Obama." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM I assume, PeeDee, you'd prefer Glenn or Rush for absolutely bias-free information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Ebbie Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM In what way, pdq, does that information invalidate any of that timeline? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM Me thinks what we have is more revisionists thinking... I remember back during the first few months after it was apparent that there were no WMDs in Iraq that these same people were rewriting the reasons for the invasion as if everyone else on the planet hadn't been paying attention... I mean, that's exactly what is going on here... Could Obama done a better job with PR... Well, yeah... But one major difference between Obama's style abd Bush's is that Obama is more into the nuts and boths of governing, somethin which Bush never quite understood and less about pumping out his chest bargging about stupid stuff of which Bush was a master... Break time is up... Back to farmer Boberdz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM The people who bitch about Obama not doing enough about the oil spill are the same people who bitch the federal government is too big... Damn right, Mouse! These people gotta remember that Government Is The PROBLEM - NOT the Solution! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:59 AM Bobert: If you have a couple weeks you could read the entire "Katrinagate" thread which I started in response to a hand picked issue from the Mudville right and after 800 posts I don't I shreaded every argument they made... Here's how Bobert "shreads" arguments, He weasels out by calling his asinine, unprovable "facts" jokes and then puffs out his chest and thumps on it while bragging about his accuracy. Bobert: "Had the terrorists hit New Orleans with a bomb that blew up the the Lake Pocigtraine dam," Guest: Still looking for Bobert's Lake Pontchartrain dam. Still wondering how a 25 year job could have been completed in time to save NO even if it was started the day GWB took office. .. Bobert: Danged, GUEST, ain't you figured out nuthin' about me yet??? I do throw out a little comic relief now and then just to ligthen stuff up... Everyone who has been paying attention know fully well that there's no dam.... I mean, we were all bimbarded with overhaeds of the area... You need to lighten up and stick with the real stuff and leave my obvious *finnin'* alone.. It is not *finnin'* it is a stink bomb like he brags about. He trolls and then sits back and laughs when people respond. Great fun eh Bobert? Bobert: "Then I sneak out to Mudcat when them's is asleep and light stink bombs here in the Catbox... I know I shouldn't do it but " |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Oct 10 - 01:48 PM Fuck off, Sawz... No one here, including me, has any interest in yer little obseesion with me... See yer shrink... Now if you have some rebuttal to the arguments I put forth here in this thread, fine, but just showin' yer ass to the Mudville community is getting (yawn) rather boring... You need mental help... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:14 AM I think it is trolls and self admitted stink bombers that need help. They are obsessed with their self. You want the attention. You ask for people to prove you are wrong and you get it. Problem is you don't like to lose so you get all huffy puffy and attack the person instead of the facts presented. "What motivates the irrational mind to protect their beliefs in the face of any and all evidence? The "Ego" which always seeks to grow ever larger. And, in fact, that is exactly what it does. That is why the irrational person will NEVER, EVER admit they are wrong under ANY circumstances." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:22 AM That is why the irrational person will NEVER, EVER admit they are wrong under ANY circumstances." Saws I don't agree with you about Bobert but in general I think you may be right- I haven't heard you express error. Frankly, I think your obsession with Bobert is unhealthy - for you - and unpleasant - for us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM "I haven't heard you express error" If I find posts where I admit I was wrong will you admit you were wrong? Bobert posts things that are wrong and he will not face up to the facts. I have never called him a liar, just wrong. Now there is a real pleasant fellow. Can you tell us what would have happened "Had the terrorists hit New Orleans with a bomb that blew up the the Lake Pocigtraine dam" and what that proves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:15 PM Obama pumps out his chest and says: "he will take steps to ensure that the federal government will never again allow such catastrophic failures in emergency planning and response to occur." But then: Rolling Stone Politics: On May 27th, more than a month into the worst environmental disaster in U.S. history, Barack Obama strode to the podium in the East Room of the White House. For weeks, the administration had been insisting that BP alone was to blame for the catastrophic oil spill in the Gulf -- and the ongoing failure to stop the massive leak. "They have the technical expertise to plug the hole," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs had said only six days earlier. "It is their responsibility." The president, Gibbs added, lacked the authority to play anything more than a supervisory role -- a curious line of argument from an administration that has reserved the right to assassinate American citizens abroad and has nationalized much of the auto industry. "If BP is not accomplishing the task, can you just federalize it?" a reporter asked. "No," Gibbs replied. Why didn't Mr on vacation Obama follow theThe National Oil and Hazardous Substances Pollution Contingency Plan The National Oil and Hazardous Substances Pollution Contingency Plan, more commonly called the National Contingency Plan or NCP, is the federal government's blueprint for responding to both oil spills and hazardous substance releases. The National Contingency Plan is the result of our country's efforts to develop a national response capability and promote overall coordination among the hierarchy of responders and contingency plans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:51 PM Day 1 – April 20 Explosion in Gulf Obama returns from L.A. – fundraising for Barb Boxer DAY 2 – April 21 Obama attends reception for G-20 Labor Ministers DAY 3 – April 22 Obama hosts Rose Garden reception to honor Earth Day Obama flies to NYC to push Wall St bill DAY 4 – April 23 Hey, let's go on vacation to Asheville, North Carolina! Lunch at Twelve Bones for ribs and mac & cheese No worries! How about a mountain hike? Obama squeezes in a round of golf! DAY 5 – April 24 Let's go golfing again — at Grove Park Inn GC A nice gourmet dinner at the Biltmore! DAY 6 – April 25 A scrumptious brunch at Grove Park Resort DAY 7 – April 26 Obama hosts NY Yankees for White House event DAY 8 – April 27 Obama visits Iowa for rhubarb pie at Jerry's Diner DAY 9 – April 28 Obama flies to Missouri for lunch at Peggy Sue's Diner DAY 10 – April 29 Obama attends DNC fundraiser at swank DC residence DAY 11 – April 30 Obama flies to MD to view Secret Service binoculars DAY 12 – May 1 Obama joins Leno for comedy routine at WHCD DAY 13 – May 2 Obama visits Lousiana WEEEHAAAA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:54 PM DAY 14 – May 3 Obama hosts the Navy football team DAY 15 – May 4 Obama private lunch with Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel DAY 16 – May 5 Obama hosts Cinco De Mayo party at White House DAY 17 – May 6 Just chillin'. Summers gives updates on economy DAY 18 – May 7 Wizbangs give Rose Garden speech on 'economy' DAY 19 – May 8 Obama hits links at Ft Belvoir Dining out at ritzy DC restaurant — Komi! DAY 20 – May 9 Obama gives commencement speech at Hampton U. DAY 21 – May 10 Hey, during a crisis, let's pick a SCJ! DAY 22 – May 11 Private (golf?) lunch with Joe Biden DAY 23 – May 12 Obama hosts private reception for President Karzai DAY 24 – May 13 Obama flies to Buffalo for Duff's hot wings DAY 25 – May 14 Obama finally makes speech on oil spill in Rose Garden DAY 26 – May 15 Enough of the oil spill stuff… Obama off to golf! DAY 27 – May 16 Obama golfs (again!) at Fort Belvoir DAY 28 – May 17 Obama hosts UConn women's basketball DAY 29 – May 18 Obama tours plant in 'Ohio' (um, oil spill's in LA!) DAY 30 – May 19 Obama hosts glitzy state dinner for Calderon Dancing the night away! DAY 31 – May 20 Obama meets with Bono for some reason DAY 32 – May 21 Obama chills with the Pittsburgh Steelers… DAY 33 – May 22 Obama goes golfing again at Andrews Air Force base DAY 34 – May 23 Obama discusses basketball with Marv Albert DAY 35 – May 24 Obama hosts Asian American celebration DAY 36 – May 25 Obama flies to San Fran to party with Getty Oil family And raise millions for Barbara Boxer DAY 37 – May 26 Obama spends day 2 in CA — with fellow economic wiz James Carville: "Man, you got to get down here and take control of this, put somebody in charge of this thing and get this moving. We're about to die down here." "I think they actually believe that BP has some kind of a good motivation here," he said. "They're naive! BP is trying to save money, save everything they can... They won't tell us anything, and oddly enough, the government seems to be going along with it! Somebody has got to, like shake them and say, 'These people don't wish you well! They're going to take you down!'" Carville also accused the White House of going along with what he called the "let BP handle it" strategy. "I'm as good a Democrat as most people, and I think this administration has done some good things. They are risking everything by this 'go along with BP' strategy they have that seems like, lackadaisical on this, and Doug is right, they seem like they're inconvenienced by this, this is some giant thing getting in their way and somehow or another, if you let BP handle it, it'll all go away. It's not going away. It's growing out there. It is a disaster of the first magnitude, and they've got to go to Plan B." Likewise, Chris Matthews argued during a "Tonight Show" appearance that the President was "acting a little like a Vatican Observer." "The President scares me," he said. "When is he actually going to do something? And I worry; I know he doesn't want to take ownership of it. I know politics. He said the minute he says, 'I'm in charge,' he takes the blame, but somebody has to. It's in our interest." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM DAY 38 – May 27 Obama welcomes the Duke Blue Devils Obama, Clinton hang with the U.S. World Cup team Obama hosts party for Jewish Americans Obama family heads off for a weekend vacation DAY 39 – MAY 28 Obamas back in Chicago for weekend vacation Obama interrupts vaca for some PR DAY 40 – MAY 29 Obama leaving U Chicago after some basketball… The Obamas heading out for an evening of barbecue DAY 41 – MAY 30 After a night of barbecue and beers, let's hit the gym! Day 42 – May 31 Obama skips Arlington; gets rained out for Illinois speech… DAY 43 – June 1 Meets with President of Peru DAY 44 – June 2 Sings and dances with Paul McCartney DAY 45 – June 3 Hosts reception for India delegation DAY 46 – June 4 Hosts MLS Champs, Salt Lake Flies to Louisiana; spends 4 hours; time for lunch DAY 47 – June 5 Spends day relaxing; no events scheduled DAY 48 – June 6 Attends Kelly Clarkson concert Ford Theatre Biden hosts BBQ for liberal media; squirt gun fights too DAY 49 – June 7 Gives speech to sleepy Michigan HS DAY 50 – June 8 Hosts barbecue picnic for members of Congress DAY 53 – June 11 Date night — Broadway play DAY 54 – June 12 Compares oil spill to 9/11 — heads to youth soccer match DAY 55 – June 13 Obama goes golfing! Once again. DAY 56 – June 14 Flies to Mississippi, enjoys snow cone! DAY 57 – June 15 Heads over to FL for walk on beach with Charlie Crist! DAY 58 – June 16 Obama meets with BP CEO for 20 minutes DAY 59 – June 17 Meets with advisers to start lawsuit against Arizona! DAY 60 – June 18 Beers and baseball! DAY 61 – June 19 Obama spends 6 hours golfing again! DAY 62 – June 20 Relaxes all day; Emanuel bashes Hayward's sailing! DAY 63 – June 21 Hosts a South Lawn barbecue! DAY 64 – June 22 Hosts Gay, Lesbian & Transgender Bash! DAY 66 – June 24 Travels to Virginia burger joint for yuks and photo-ops! DAY 67 – June 25 Yukking it up at G-20 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:58 AM The previous four posts are off topic. Please erase them Joe. I was wrong in posting them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM Earth to Sawz... Betty Ford is awaitin' yer call... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:29 AM Off topic, sure. You didn't know that? But I would like to insert an observation. Sawsaw: Day 1, slept Day 2, slept Day 3, slept Day 4, slept Day 5, slept Day 6, slept ad infinitum You get the picture. How dare you say you cared, when you slept every single night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:31 PM Once again Bobert the self confessed stink bomber that ridicules the Mudcat board, "shreads" another argument by referring his response to someone else. Actually if he would read for a change. He would see it was a question. And if he was as good as he claims to be, he would be able to answer it. Anyway this belongs in the All Hail Obama thread, otherwise known as Popular views of Obama which has gone dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:12 PM Sorry, Sawz... But when I retired from social work, primarially assigned "clients" from Eastern State Hospital (i.e., the nut house) in Petersburg, Va, I decided that some folks with mental problems can be fun to be around... But then again, those with obsessive dysfunctions, were obsessin' on someone/something other than me... Get my drift, Sawz??? I mean, yer hangin' yer dirty laundry out for all to see here??? I mean, I understand mental illness and there's a difference between mental illness and "personality disorder"... But it's kinda a fine line at time and me thinks you got one foot in and the other out... My advice to you would be to step back from the ledge, find a wholesome hobby and try to take yer mind off me... Worth a try... Serious business... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 08:29 AM Katrina: 14 inches of rain, 1833 deaths Isaac: 24 inches of rain, no deaths reported yet Army Corps of Engineers levees hold as designed... Pumps work as designed... Now, when Congress approve more $$$ then the next phase of improving the levees can begin... As for administartions??? Bush: D- Obama: A B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:03 AM Why did the levees fail? Obama is in charge now, had $787 Billion to spend Carte Blanc but turtle tunnels are more important than levees. Not even a hurricane but it top's Obama's levees. Yer doin' a heckuva job there Barry Slidel: Due to increasing levels in the bayous, the pumping stations are unable to pump the water out as quickly as it is rising. Isaac's storm surge tops La. Levee Some residents in southeast Louisiana had to evacuate after water rushed into their homes. Tropical Storm Isaac, downgraded from a hurricane about 19 hours after making landfall, drove water over a levee in a lightly populated part of Plaquemines Parish, flattened sugar cane 50 miles west in Terrebonne Parish, forced evacuation of a neighborhood in St. John the Baptist Parish and knocked out power to more than 700,000 households and businesses statewide. Read more: http://www.ksbw.com/weather/Isaac-s-storm-surge-tops-La-Levee/-/5745260/16415398/-/15mvlwu/-/index.html#ixzz252AiF100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:10 AM Yo, Saws... The levees did fail... Get you facts correct... Read real news rather than right winged mythology... The systems that have been designed and built since Katrina worked as designed... But don't believe me, the New York Times, the Washington Post, NBC, ABC, or CBS... Yes, some levees were breached... Problem here is that Congress hasn't approved enough money to make New Orleans 100% safe... Now here's a suggestion... Take that tin-foil hat off and try checking out the non-right-wing-sites for your news... In other words, get your head out of Loonie-Nation's ass and take a breath of fresh air... B~ |
