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Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM
Amos 16 Nov 05 - 08:48 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM
Azizi 16 Nov 05 - 09:38 PM
Azizi 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 09:54 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM
GUEST 17 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM
Ebbie 17 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM
Teribus 17 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM
Ebbie 17 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM
Bobert 18 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM
Teribus 18 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM
Bobert 18 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 18 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM
Peace 18 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM
Teribus 19 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,A 19 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM
DougR 19 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM
Naemanson 19 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,A 21 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 10:09 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 10:33 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,A 22 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,A 22 Nov 05 - 05:07 AM
Peace 22 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM
GUEST 22 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,A 23 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,A 23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,petr 23 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 05 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,A 23 Nov 05 - 09:34 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 05 - 10:00 PM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 11:27 PM
Teribus 25 Nov 05 - 01:35 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 26 Nov 05 - 02:06 AM
Peace 26 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM
Peace 26 Nov 05 - 02:38 AM
Bobert 26 Nov 05 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 26 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM
Bobert 26 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM
Peace 26 Nov 05 - 11:10 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM
GUEST 28 Nov 05 - 08:09 AM
Teribus 29 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM
Bobert 29 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM
Peace 29 Nov 05 - 07:56 PM
robomatic 29 Nov 05 - 08:19 PM
GUEST,petr 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM
Bobert 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM
Bobert 29 Nov 05 - 11:14 PM
Bobert 30 Nov 05 - 07:36 PM
CarolC 30 Nov 05 - 10:11 PM
CarolC 30 Nov 05 - 10:12 PM
Bobert 30 Nov 05 - 10:49 PM
Teribus 01 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM
Bobert 01 Dec 05 - 10:00 PM
Bobert 03 Dec 05 - 10:16 PM
Teribus 05 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM
Bobert 05 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Frank 06 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM
Bobert 06 Dec 05 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,A 06 Dec 05 - 03:28 PM
Bobert 06 Dec 05 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,A 06 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,Buzz 07 Dec 05 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,A 07 Dec 05 - 07:30 AM
Bobert 07 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM
dianavan 08 Dec 05 - 01:21 AM
Teribus 09 Dec 05 - 10:41 AM
Bobert 09 Dec 05 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,Buzz 09 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 15 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 11:54 PM
Bobert 16 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM
Bobert 17 Dec 05 - 05:42 PM
Leadfingers 18 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM
Leadfingers 18 Dec 05 - 03:09 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 05 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,Buzz 19 Dec 05 - 07:02 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM
Amos 19 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,A 19 Dec 05 - 09:47 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM
Peace 19 Dec 05 - 08:44 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 05 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM
Peace 19 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Buzz 19 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 05 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Buzz: 20 Dec 05 - 12:19 AM
Amos 20 Dec 05 - 12:21 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 21 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM
Teribus 22 Dec 05 - 06:01 AM
Bobert 22 Dec 05 - 08:27 AM
Bobert 22 Dec 05 - 08:50 AM
Peace 22 Dec 05 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 23 Dec 05 - 10:47 AM
Bobert 23 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 23 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 29 Dec 05 - 10:49 PM
Bobert 29 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,A 30 Dec 05 - 07:46 AM
Bobert 30 Dec 05 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,A 30 Dec 05 - 09:07 AM
GUEST, Old Guy 30 Dec 05 - 06:16 PM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 30 Dec 05 - 07:05 PM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 07:27 PM
Bobert 30 Dec 05 - 07:28 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 30 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM
Bobert 30 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 30 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM
Peace 30 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 31 Dec 05 - 11:30 AM
Bobert 31 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 31 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,Edward 01 Jan 06 - 02:17 AM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 02:20 AM
GUEST,Just figgered it out. 01 Jan 06 - 02:59 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 06 - 09:06 AM
Bobert 01 Jan 06 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,guest 01 Jan 06 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 01 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM
Bobert 01 Jan 06 - 03:20 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 06 - 05:42 PM
Bobert 01 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM
Bobert 01 Jan 06 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 01 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM
Peace 01 Jan 06 - 08:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 01 Jan 06 - 10:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jan 06 - 12:18 AM
Ebbie 02 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,G 02 Jan 06 - 07:08 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jan 06 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 08 Jan 06 - 01:11 AM
GUEST 08 Jan 06 - 01:35 AM
Bobert 08 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 08 Jan 06 - 10:27 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 09 Jan 06 - 01:09 AM
CarolC 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 06 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,A 09 Jan 06 - 08:36 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 09 Jan 06 - 09:54 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 06 - 10:13 AM
CarolC 09 Jan 06 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 09 Jan 06 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,George 09 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 09 Jan 06 - 07:48 PM
CarolC 09 Jan 06 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 06 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,A 09 Jan 06 - 10:19 PM
CarolC 09 Jan 06 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,G 10 Jan 06 - 07:19 AM
Bobert 10 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,G 10 Jan 06 - 09:49 AM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,A 10 Jan 06 - 04:41 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 10 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 10 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 06 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,A 10 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 10 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 10 Jan 06 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,G 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,G 11 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 11 Jan 06 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Marion 11 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Wiggy 11 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 11 Jan 06 - 03:47 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 11 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 07:09 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 06 - 07:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 06 - 09:34 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 11 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Geo duck 11 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 06 - 10:52 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 11:12 PM
CarolC 11 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 11 Jan 06 - 11:23 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 12 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jan 06 - 12:40 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,G 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM
Bobert 12 Jan 06 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,G 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 12 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Al 12 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,G 12 Jan 06 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,G 12 Jan 06 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jan 06 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,G 13 Jan 06 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,G 13 Jan 06 - 08:24 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,G 13 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM
Old Guy 13 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 08:55 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM
Old Guy 14 Jan 06 - 03:33 AM
Bobert 14 Jan 06 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,G 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 AM
Old Guy 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,G 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM
Bobert 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM
CarolC 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM
Old Guy 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM
Azizi 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM
Azizi 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Geoduck 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,G 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 17 Jan 06 - 09:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 19 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM
Bobert 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM
Old Guy 20 Jan 06 - 02:32 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM
Amos 24 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM
Bobert 24 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM
Bobert 24 Jan 06 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 25 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jan 06 - 11:29 PM
Bobert 26 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM
Old Guy 27 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM
Bobert 27 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM
Old Guy 27 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM
Bobert 28 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:34 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 06 - 12:53 PM
Bobert 28 Jan 06 - 07:43 PM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,G 02 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,G 02 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM
Bobert 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM
Old Guy 02 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM
Amos 03 Feb 06 - 12:05 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM
Bobert 03 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Dazbo 03 Feb 06 - 09:01 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM
Teribus 04 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM
Amos 04 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,G 04 Feb 06 - 05:20 PM
Bobert 04 Feb 06 - 06:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM
Bobert 06 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Feb 06 - 10:01 PM
Bobert 06 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM
Bobert 10 Feb 06 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,P 10 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM
Amos 10 Feb 06 - 12:12 PM
Amos 10 Feb 06 - 12:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Feb 06 - 02:28 PM
Bobert 10 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM
Amos 11 Feb 06 - 11:16 AM
Bobert 11 Feb 06 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,AR282 11 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM
Bobert 12 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM
Amos 13 Feb 06 - 11:05 AM
Bobert 13 Feb 06 - 12:43 PM
Peace 13 Feb 06 - 01:47 PM
Bobert 14 Feb 06 - 08:20 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 05:49 PM
Bobert 25 Feb 06 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Q as guest 25 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Snuffy Smif 20 Apr 06 - 12:42 PM
Bobert 20 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,G 20 Apr 06 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,G 20 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM
CarolC 20 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,G 20 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM
Bobert 20 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Apr 06 - 12:58 AM
GUEST,Snuffy 29 Apr 06 - 10:09 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Apr 06 - 04:05 PM
Bobert 29 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 06 - 07:30 PM
Bobert 29 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM
Amos 29 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM
Bobert 29 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 06 - 07:38 AM
autolycus 30 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Snuffy 30 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM
autolycus 30 Apr 06 - 06:01 PM
Bobert 30 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM
GUEST 23 May 06 - 02:12 PM
Amos 23 May 06 - 03:05 PM
CarolC 23 May 06 - 04:21 PM
Bobert 31 May 06 - 08:22 PM
Bobert 31 May 06 - 08:25 PM
GUEST 31 May 06 - 10:03 PM
SINSULL 31 May 06 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 31 May 06 - 10:41 PM
GUEST,fumblefingers 31 May 06 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 31 May 06 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Texas 31 May 06 - 11:52 PM
Bobert 01 Jun 06 - 08:05 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 06 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Q as guest 01 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM
Bobert 01 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,Fernando 02 Jun 06 - 12:15 AM
Bobert 02 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Fernando 02 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Fernando 02 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 02 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM
Bobert 02 Jun 06 - 04:59 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Fernando 03 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM
Amos 03 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 06 - 06:29 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 06 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Fernando 03 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Fernando 03 Jun 06 - 08:45 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM
Barry Finn 04 Jun 06 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Fenando 04 Jun 06 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Missy 04 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Missy 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Missy 04 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM
Amos 04 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 06 - 02:10 PM
Bobert 04 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Alphonse 05 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 06 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Fernando 05 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Alphonse 05 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Flashback 05 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 06 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Fernando 05 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM
Bobert 05 Jun 06 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Fernando 05 Jun 06 - 09:17 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 06 - 09:20 PM
Bobert 05 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Rufus 05 Jun 06 - 09:43 PM
Amos 05 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,Rufus 05 Jun 06 - 10:45 PM
Bobert 05 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,Rufus 05 Jun 06 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Rufus 05 Jun 06 - 11:04 PM
Amos 05 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM
Bobert 05 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM
GUEST 06 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Rufus 06 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Rufus 07 Jun 06 - 05:14 PM
Bobert 07 Jun 06 - 08:47 PM
GUEST 07 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM
Bobert 07 Jun 06 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Rufus 07 Jun 06 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 07 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Rufus 07 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 06 - 07:51 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 06 - 12:18 PM
Amos 09 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Rufus 09 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 06 - 01:37 PM
Bobert 09 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM
Amos 09 Jun 06 - 09:14 PM
Bobert 09 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,Rufus 10 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM
Bobert 10 Jun 06 - 09:23 AM
Amos 10 Jun 06 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Rufus 10 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM
Amos 10 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM
Amos 10 Jun 06 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 10 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM
Bobert 10 Jun 06 - 08:14 PM
Amos 10 Jun 06 - 08:58 PM
Bobert 10 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Rufus 11 Jun 06 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,Rufus 11 Jun 06 - 09:24 PM
Bobert 12 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM
GUEST,Rufus 13 Jun 06 - 12:11 AM
Bobert 13 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM
GUEST 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 AM
Bobert 13 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Rufus 13 Jun 06 - 05:58 PM
Amos 13 Jun 06 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Rufus 13 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM
Bobert 13 Jun 06 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Woody 13 Jun 06 - 09:45 PM
Bobert 13 Jun 06 - 10:07 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,Rufus 13 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM
Bobert 13 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 06 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Rufus 13 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM
Amos 14 Jun 06 - 12:06 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM
Bobert 14 Jun 06 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 09:34 AM
Amos 14 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM
Amos 14 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM
Bobert 14 Jun 06 - 07:41 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 08:43 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 09:09 PM
Bobert 14 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 09:50 PM
Bobert 14 Jun 06 - 10:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jun 06 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,Woody 15 Jun 06 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Woody 15 Jun 06 - 07:13 AM
GUEST 15 Jun 06 - 07:25 AM
Bobert 15 Jun 06 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Rufus 15 Jun 06 - 08:42 AM
Amos 15 Jun 06 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Rufus 15 Jun 06 - 09:39 AM
Bobert 15 Jun 06 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Rufus 15 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM
Bobert 15 Jun 06 - 08:08 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 06 - 03:33 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 06 - 08:16 AM
Bobert 16 Jun 06 - 10:10 AM
Amos 16 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Rufus 16 Jun 06 - 01:17 PM
Amos 16 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM
Bobert 16 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM
Bobert 16 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Rufus 16 Jun 06 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Rufus 16 Jun 06 - 11:35 PM
GUEST,Woody 17 Jun 06 - 12:18 AM
Amos 17 Jun 06 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Woody 17 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM
Peace 17 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM
Bobert 17 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Woody 17 Jun 06 - 08:58 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM
Bobert 17 Jun 06 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Rufus 17 Jun 06 - 10:44 PM
Bobert 18 Jun 06 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Rufus 18 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM
Bobert 18 Jun 06 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Rufus 18 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM
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Subject: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM

Well, well, well...

"Yer doin' a good job, Brownie"

Well, in this case he might have or might not have but one thing fir sure is that Bush and Homeland Security Director, Micheal Chertoff weren't up to the task...

Ahhhh, how many Bush apologists have ever heard of the "National Response Plan"???

(Hmmmmmm, Bobert, none holdin' up their hands...)

Well, it was unvieled last January by the DoHS and it "was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-September 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter).

"It very clearly says that in a catastrope, where you either anticipate or it has allready happened that locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take (a) proactive steps to protect the lives of citizens." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter)

"Ultimately, this plan designates the Secretary of Homeland Defense as the person who is supposed to be the principal federasl official in charge when disater strikes" (Ibid)

So here's the way it was upposed to work, folks... Top down and not vice versa... Brownie wasn't the one callin' the shots here...

So we fast forward to the Congressional hearing with Michael Brown...

Rep. Christopher Shays: "Now, with the non-evacuation, when you knew that niether the governor or mayor were going to do their job, did you call- and I would like to bring the President in. When did you contact ther President to say we have a catastrophe happening with an incompetent mayor and incompetent governor not responding to this. When did you contact the President to let him know this extraordinary crisis that would impact our country?"

Michael Brown: "I talked to the White House on both Saturday and Sunday. And throughout the disaster."

Sheys: "So the first conversation was Saturday?"

Brown: "I think the first conversation was Saturday, yes. It may have been Friday, but I have to go back and check my records."

Shays: "Why not sooner? I mean, you had indications that this was- I mean, we knew on Friday that it was going to hit New Orleans, and we knew by Friday that it was going to be basiclly as category four ot five. You had a pretty good sense that the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had- even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?"

Brown: "Yes, that's the plan, correct."

Shays: "Yeah, okay. Amd they didn't implement it. So did you ask for, quote unquote, a "higher authority" to help you out so you could help save lives?"

Brown: "I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?"

Shays: "Did you ask for a higher authroity to help you out? You're the head of FEMA, but the governor and mayor aren't paying attention to you. I want to know who you asked for help."

Brown: "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House."

Shays: "To who?"

Brown; "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House."

Shays: "The White House is a big place. So give us specifics. I'm not asking about conversations yet, I want to know who you contacted."

Brown: I exchanged emails and phones calls with Joe Hagin, Andy Card and the President."

BINGO, folks!!!!

So here is my question. Given that a FEMA reaction is top-down triggered then if Bush knew of what was going down, as Brown has said he did, then shouldn't the orders dome from the top, seein' as Bush's own National Response Plan outlined???

Hey, Brownie did his job...

Bush didn't, since he knew that a category for or five hurricane was about to hit New Orleans, had been told by Brownie that the local authorities were not up to handling the situation...

Bush should have told Certoff to get the ball rolling...

Hey, it wasn't like some other administyartion had writtne the National Response Plan... It was the Bush administarion and when it was time for it to be implimented, drunk frat boy was yet again... AWOL...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:48 PM

Well, he did have other things on his plate at the time, Bobert -- be reasonable -- there was all that torturing going on, billions of dollars to re-direct into the hands of the needy greedy, favours to catch up on. Puppetmasters to report to. Falsehoods to contrive. PR tapdance steps to master. I mean c;mon -- this guy is a busy man!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM

And vacation. Don't forget his vacation. A man is entitled to a vacation now and then, right?

And Cheney needed a vacation too and so did Ms. Rice. Surely you can't fault them for that?

After all, they were on the job (kind of) within 10 days or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM

Well, good points there, Amos.... And I'm sure that when the Bush apologists have caught their breat here they may indeed point out those duties....

Funny thing, this is purdy much the same case I laid out to GUEST, A and got back zip, nada, nuthin'.... Yeah I challenged him to just pick one danged thing he thought Bush did an okay job on... So he just picked this one... So I threw it to hiom and he went like... "Bobert's a nut" 'er somethin'like that...

Problem with the Bush apologists is that ain't some blog to click on the offer up their defense, they are, fir the most part, too danged lazy to go out and do any research... So they just call you a "f*ck" and go one with their ignorant selves....

Hope GUEST A will do a little homework here and get on in this discussion but I don't expect it...

And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs... What you read and see is waht you get... I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way...

So, fir you bloggers, you might not have had this case laid out this way but this is the way I've found it and it don't llok good on the Bush adminisratiion....

I understand that Bush is gonna start puttiin' refuggee out on the street in two weeks... No more rent assistance... Hey, they've got a big tax cut fir the rich and a war in Iraq to pay for...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:38 PM

4,000 people are still declared missing in New Orleans.

This story is just heartbreaking.

See this excerpt from a dailykos diary by clammyc
Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:55:19 AM PDT

"How quickly two months go by.

Yet, that is how long it has been since Katrina hit, and it has been 6 weeks since the search for bodies in the 9th Ward was halted. And lest we think otherwise, it was known at the time that there were still bodies that were not recovered.

And now we hear that since families are just starting to come back to the Ninth Ward to see the destruction, collect what they can of their belongings, or even check on the houses of families or loved ones, gruesome discoveries are being made...

and per Anderson Cooper yesterday...

'Well, the death toll keeps rising.

You know, it's hard to imagine anything worse than coming back to your home in New Orleans and finding it completely destroyed. But, tonight, as you're about to hear, there is something worse, much worse. Dozens of families have returned to what is left of their homes and found, lying amidst the mold and the wreckage, a body, forgotten, abandoned. Maybe it's their mother or their grandmother, sometimes even their missing child.

The state called off searching house to house in New Orleans well over a month ago. They said they completed the job. Clearly, they have not. In tonight's "Keeping Them Honest," our daily segment devoted to New Orleans and the still devastated Gulf Coast, we try to find out who is to blame...'"

-snip-


Read the entire diary and comments at
Bodies of loved ones found in NOLA

One things for sure-this is not the America we were raised to believe in.

The American dream may never has been real for many but this nightmare is absolutely outrageous.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM

BTW, my brother Bobert,

You said "And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs...I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way..."

And right after that comment, I quoted an excerpt from a diary from the one of the blogs {if not THE blog} that receives the most "hits" {visitors}every day.

Yet I put my own comments in the mix too..

So IMO quoting from blogs should be something that is acceptable here.

I hope you're down with that.

If not-we're still cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:54 PM

Good point, MiziAzizi... More folks missin' from Katrina than were kil;led on 9/1!!!! Where's the millions an' millions of dollars fir each family that lost a loved one??? No, instead no milllions the Bush administration is gettin' ready to pull the plug in the rent subsidies to house the refugees, which, BTW, are predominently black...

Meanwhile, back in New Yorkl 'er C.D. families recieve millions of bucks for their lost loved ones/wage earners...

(So what is you tryin' to say here, bobert???)

Well, I*z gonna put it as blunt as it should be put: What has happened in New Orleans during and after Katrina was as racist tging as I've seen since Selma... Yeah, New Orleans is Bush's Selma... Or Littlerock....

This is disgusting... When you drive around Washington, D.C. area there are more million dollar mansions than a man could count... Thwey are evrywhere and they are owned by lobbiests who get the big bucks to run our government because our congressmen are too busy rai9sing dough to get re-elected...

Meanwhile, Bush was asleep at the wheel during Katrina... Brownie tried to wake hi up but may the boy had one too many a pretzel that night...

(Like how do you spell, AWOL, BObert???)

Yeah, conscious or not, racism is over-rode the Bush administrations actions during Katrina and they still are...

Shamefull...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM

Miz,

Hey, I ain't got no problem with blogs, per sey... The problem I have is when the Bush apologists here don't actually do any thinkin' 'er researchin' on their own but have some blog that has been well funded by some rich fat cat who wants to put a mil;lion bucks into a PR staff to create a blog that the Bush apoligist only click on like a "Get Outta Jail Free" click...

Lotta that goin' 'round and it sucks...

Hey, I dopn't have a cluue what the perdentage of blogs out there are but if I* had to guess there's probably 10 right wionged to every progressive...

That's what I mean...

Lotta time's we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeeves and do then research. like I have done here...

But you know I loves ya and respects ya and you ain't gonna go do no long cut 'n run (paste) rebuttal...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM

I've thought about posting a thread called something like 'Katrina and Rita- Current Conditions' because I would like more information on what the situation is RIGHT NOW. Human beings tend to have short term responses and the need for help on the Gulf Coast is going to be going on for a very long time. We have to stay aware.

A Juneau friend of mine just got back from doing volunteer work down there for two weeks plus and he says that one can almost not describe it. He said it's like a hundred miles of mashed houses and not much of anything else. What are the people to go back to?

A man from Mississippi a week or so ago told me that those thousands of house trailers they brought down there came with no house keys...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM

I am not in the destruction zone but close. Mississippi is overrun with carbetbaggers and scalawags once again. The scalawags are the local con artists who set about collecting multiple checks while real victims did without until the relief agencies stopped offering them.

The carpetbaggers are out-of-state corporations selling $30,000 trailers to FEMA for $80,000 and setting them up at a snails pace. Bechtel (headquartered in San Diego) has a huge sweetheart contract to send in trailers for people to live in. I see them come down the interstate every day, one at a time, from as far as oregon, driven by some guy in a very big shiny new pickup. They are dropped off in staging areas where they stay for weeks. Supposedly every day a few dozen more get sent to a site. Only after some other out-of-state folks have researched whether the home site is good enough and level enough. Some time later after repeated applications from people living in tents, the trailer may be delivered. Often it will sit there for weeks while arrangements are made for inspectors and electricians and plumbers to hook it up properly. FEMA will not allow people to just grab the units and set them up the best they can. They have to be set up like yer uncle luke's planned retirement community with the gravel beds and geraniums. They may require grading, etc. And yes, often it is finally set up and cleared for occupancy but the keys are missing.   

Meanwhile, less than 1% of the reconstruction work has gone to Mississippi companies, many of whom are struggling to survive. Our our trailer sales companies are selling to individuals but have lots full of trailers and mobile homes standing empty while people wait for FEMA to finally get its electricians around to hooking everybody up to their unit from Oregon. FEMA promised to rebid the big sweetheart contracts a month ago but hasn't lifted a finger. It also has rejected efforts by local house & apt landlords to help people get settled in outlying areas in real homes. It hurts to see all the empty trailers and homes knowing what people are going through.

On the coast, meetings have been held to try to do sweeping urban planning before anything substantial gets rebuilt, and zoning & building codes (such as "you have to raise your building 20' higher than x") are not done yet. New FEMA flood maps have been done and all rebuilding and mortgageing and insuring will have to work around them. So much rebuilding is just gonna be "on hold" for a long time. Many stores and restaurants on the margins have opened up, but find few can live and work in the area for $6 an hour with nowhere to stay. Debris clearing is done by some highly paid outsiders with the grunt work being contracted out to crews of illegal aliens who can hack $6 an hour while living in a tent.

Housing is in desperately short supply near ground zero, and 'investors' are snapping up both livable homes and destroyed coastal property. Locals are afraid as the months and years wear on more folks will have to sell out to big REITS who will build shiny new resort 'towns'.

In short, it ain't going real well. This area had few financial resources before KT and it will wind up even poorer than before. In a decade it will have a nicely rebuilt coast area, but the proceeds will have been funneled to California (home of Bechtel) or Florida or Connecticut.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM

So, looks like the Bush administration still don't get it????


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM

Thank you very much, Guest. What do the local newspapers say about the situation?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM

Looks like your great KatrinaGate expose is just a thread where everybody id just preaching to the choir Bobert. Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM

We are asking the choir for information, Teribus. If you don't understand that, you're in the wrong pew. Prolly even the wrong church.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM

I have been told by survivors of Isabel that one of the key problems has always been the way FEMA is structured. It is all about being on standby until local officials formally ask for help; they are officially 'second responders'. This does not work when all phones are out and towns have been destroyed and mayors have had to evacuate and the 'first responders' are busy trying to pull people off roofs.   

So to some extent the legal structure of FEMA was and is part of the problem. The other part is the people in charge were people like Brown.   Thank God for the Coast Guard which did not have to ask permission to operate in its own waters and shores and just went in and rescued people. And Thank God for private citizens and churches who just got their act together, found some fuel, and went to help. The only positive thing in this mess is the great help people have given their fellow man.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM

Well, it's real nice to see that the the Bush-heads, T-Head included, have no rebuttal to the Bush administration, includinmg Bush himself, failings in protecting the American people...

So much fir "My job is to protect the American people" crap that Bush loves to pump out his chest and proclaim...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

Good post GUEST 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM, I agree entirely


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM

No, GUEST and T-Wrong, you are both wrong...

Reread the original post on this thread... Things have changed since the advent of the Department of Homeland Security... Yeah, you would have been corrct 5 years ago but you are both wrong now...

You all gotta keep up...

You might wanta Google "National Response Plan", GUEST, 09:03 and after you get it maybe T-Guessin' will get it as well but maybe not???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM

Yer doin a good job on yer Katrins Blog Bobert. Brownie couldn't have done any better. He couldn't figger out how many nuclear bombs can be made out of 1.77 tons of enriched youranium either so you two are on a par with each other.

Brownie is a miserable, whiney asshole too. Bush made a big mistake by making him head of FEMA.

Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM

"How did FEMA score before DHS gate?"

Real question here is how did four dozen search and rescue folks from Vancouver, Canada, get to just outside New Orleans and start doing their stuff before the head of FEMA knew anything was wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM

The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.

In 2001, President George W. Bush appointed Joe M. Allbaugh as the director of FEMA. Within months, the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11th focused the agency on issues of national preparedness and homeland security, and tested the agency in unprecedented ways. The agency coordinated its activities with the newly formed Office of Homeland Security, and FEMA's Office of National Preparedness was given responsibility for helping to ensure that the nation's first responders were trained and equipped to deal with weapons of mass destruction.

Billions of dollars of new funding were directed to FEMA to help communities face the threat of terrorism. Just a few years past its 20th anniversary, FEMA was actively directing its "all-hazards" approach to disasters toward homeland security issues.

The above is taken from the 'History' section of the Official FEMA web site.

FEMA's origins go back as far as 1803. Subsequent to becoming part of the Department of Homeland Security it would appear that funding, resources and training were allocated to expand the role and capabilities of FEMA with regard to "security issues" As both Katrina and Rita were natural disasters, FEMA's procedures and mode of operation for such circumstances would apply, there was no terrorist threat, there were no 'security isues' so revamped procedures to address those circumstances would not automatically come into play. What would, was the Federal support role to State Authorities, and as GUEST pointed out, if state had not requested assistance before Katrina struck, they proved extremely difficult to contact after. The rescue folks from Vancouver, where not hindered in this same way.

Everyone thought that plans were in place, they were. Everyone thought that those plans were adequate, that proved to be incorrect, as the plan relied on there being some organisation/civil administration in place and functioning to liaise and co-ordinate with. In the case of Katrina there wasn't. Run on just a couple of weeks and Rita arrives, by this stage plans have been altered, the response was different, the storm did not impact a major centre of population and its affects were lessened. Learning by experience is what mankind has always had to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM

Keep studyin', T-Guesser.... Yer one the right etreet, just the wrong house...

(Major hint: Chain of Command..."

Ahhh, Old Guy....Yer not even on the right street... Okay, may the "right" street but not the correct street... Yeah, it was easy and convient fir Bush to sacrifice Brownie... I'm not sayin' the guy was Menza material here but I am sayin' that it wasn't his call to make... Hwe did what he was supposed to in allerting the White Hose and the President two full days before the storm hit and telling them it would land as a Category 4 or 5 storm...

The real question here is what did Bush do? And the second question here is what did Michael Chertoff do??? Or on both cases, what they didn't do...

(Major hint: "incident of national significance"...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM

I promised myself I would not respond to the feeble, unrealistic attempts to blame the Feds for the mess in New Orleans.
There was never a question concerning the Feds response. They were caught up in the lack of effort by the "first responders", local and LA state government, and had to organize a method from a thousand miles away on how to take care of a situation that they are normally not responsible for.

Two quotes from the opening post by Rep. Christopher Shays;

1. "when did you contact the President to say we have a catastophe happening with an incompetent Mayor and an incompetent Governor not responding....?"

2. ".......the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had - even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?"

Bingo, my Ass!!!!!!! Even a member of the Congressional hearing acknowledged the fact that the Mayor and the Governor were incompetent boobs.

I am not going to ask for further facts because there are none. Were you aware that the President had to ask for the Governor to be removed from press conferences several times in the first couple days following the storms' passing? Here in the safe confines of my midwest estate, I had no reason to hear from the Governor while people were drowning in their homes


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM

I got a idea! Let's promote Bobert to head FEMA. I think he would do a bang-up job. After all, he has all the answers. And I think he should be allowed to pick his own crew of helpers here at the Mudcat. I'll bet they would whip that New Orleans mess in shape within a week.

Next stop: Bobert for President if he does that!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM

I am NOT a Bush apologist. He is and will always be one of the worst presidents this country has ever had. He is the perfect reason why there should be a competency test for each presidential candidate.

But there are extenuating circumstances.

Having worked for the US government for nearly 30 years I have to point out that they are so blocked by bureaucratic bull that nothing is simple or easy. It really does take at least two and a half months to contract for construction type services if you follow the bidding regulations. That is no excuse for giving the contracts to your buddies but it does beg the question of how one can respond to emergencies.

So what happened with Katrina? Well, Brown didn't get involved right away because his schedule wasn't set up for a huge emergency even though they saw it coming. They probably all convinced themselves that the local officials could handle it. Nobody really talked to the locals. Then when it appeared that things were going south they had to get on the schedule with the White House. Then they had to figure out what to do.

Yes, there is a plan but it requires someone in the know to remember they have that plan. Generally the person in the know, in a Government organization, is not one of the yes-men near the top of that organization. So nobody thought to tell Brown that he could defer.

In the meantime, Bush was so busy with his little plans and screwups he didn't have time to worry about what was happening until someone (speaking accurately) played the race card. After all, 9/11 was a strike at the economic center of the US. The people who died there were business people (mostly). But New Orleans was just a bunch of poor blacks. He doesn't need to concern himself with them, they don't contribute to his campaign funding.

I'm getting away from my point. The bureaucracy that bogs down our Government is far reaching and insidious. It is damn near impossible to do anything quickly. Several years ago Gore tried to clean up the procurement system to make it easier to buy things and he did a good job. Under his leadership Government procurement began to use credit cards to make very small purchases (under $2,500). The use of sole source contracting was extended to contracts under $25,000. That sped up the system a little. But the large purchase process is still bogged down in lengthy approvals and long rationales for why we should not go with a competitive process. I would love to see the procurement records for the contracts that went to Halliburton in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM

No, Dougie, don't make me the head of FEMA unless yer willin' to roll the clock back where as head of FEMA I could act without having been so-ordered by the Secretary of GHomaland Security who is aewaitin' his marching orders from the president...

And GUEST A, you need to Google up National Response Plan... All the crap you are saying is just that: crap... It addresses situations where governors or mayors or police department 'or fire departments either can't responsd, or ****DON'T****!!! Waht don't you get about that???: How many time do I have to point that out to you before it sinks into yer bone-head???

Hey, I am not defendin' anu mayors, or governors here...

There was a plan in place for a Katrina that had nothing to do with the the mayor of governors./..

Yeah you can't get beyond yer finger pointing at those folks to see that the plan dealt exactly with such a scenerio such as what unfolded in the aftermath of Katerina...

The plan starts with the President instructing the Secretary of HS who then issues orderd to FEMA... This i8s the way the Bush asdminisration itself reorganized DHS and FEMA...

Brown did his job. Bush and Chertoff didn't...

Don't ven bother coming back and blame the governor... Or the mayor unless you have familiarized yourself with the way the oragnization chart was redrawn by the Bush folks...

See, I told you on another thread that you wouldn't do the researh because you either are lazy or you just find it entertainin' to say ignorant stuff but there you are doing exactly what I thought you would do which is very little in defending your position... Whatever yer position is???

Like, what is yer position???

Oh yeah, Brownie screwed up...

Hmmmmm? What he do wrong???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM

This here miserable thread has fell off the list so I thought I would revive it so Bobert could make an even bigger ass of hisself (if that is possible)

All this home work he was going to do turns out to be the same months old crap rehashed.

We need something fresh. Does anybody here live in or near NO and can attest to the corrupt government?

Another question not necessarily fresh. Does anybody remember seing the Gov Blanko being interviewed wherein she was asked just when she asked GWB to take over the National Gard and she said she did not even know what day it was?


Now the question Bobert can't answer: "Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate?"

First of all GWB did not want the new DHS department. The Dems made a stink and GWB gave in. Then the dems deamded that FEMSA be incorporated into DHS. Bush did not want to but he finally gave in to the Dems.

Were there any complaints about FEMS before it was put under FEMA? I havent heard any.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:29 PM

So, what is yer point, Old Guy????

Yeah, Bush didn't want a DHS but he got one... And he appointed one of his buds to be the 1st Secretary...

And appointed another to be the 2nd...

Hey, Old Guy, I can't fir the life of me figure out why any Bush apologist would revive this thread???

Bottom line, Bush had to accept a DPH but that's what CEO's do. Boards of Directotrs occasionally throw in something that needs for the CEO to be flexible and creative...

Have you ever heard of the "National Repsonse Plan", Old Guy??? I doubt you have... Well, you might wanta research it before comin' in here with yer usual stink bombs... It's part of yer guy's overall policy... Not mine...

Yeah, it makes references to disasters like Katrina...

Oh, BTWm it yer guy who has run around the country saying dumbass stuff like "Hey, it's my job to protect Americans."

So lets do a little review here, Old Guy...

First, Bush accepts the DHS

Second, he accepts the National Response Plan

Third, when the time comes for it to be implimented, he's AWOL...

What exactly have I missed here, pal???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM

Bobert, I can't decide if you are a rabble rouser, a drama queen or just plain naive. I migh go with the drama queen title..

The question is have you ever looked at the National Response plan?

In every aspect of it, the stipulation is that the first responders, read local and state government here, are responsible for the for the first evacuation and rescue attempts. Don't you think it might be a little late for someone to respond from a 1000 miles away.

If you find this to not be to your liking, then please quote us the section and paragraph from the National Response plan that dictates otherwise. It could be there but my copy doesn't reflect it.

Gently putting the ball back in your court.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:09 PM

You have missed everything anybody else did or didn't do that contributed to the disaster except for Bush.

You like others do not have the ability to take evertything into consideration when assigning blame. The common term is scapegoating.

You are pissed off and you look for one person that is the root of the evil.

Some women do it to their husbands. Some kids do it to their parents.

In all it makes you sound like an anarchist. Where is your broad thinking? You are narrowminded and this gives you a bad attitude which you express here.

Wake up. It's a mean old world and you are not going to make it go your way. Try being upbeat. Enjoy living in the best nation on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM

If you look under the heading "State, Local and Tribal Governments" which is in the Table of Contents iii, Roles and Responsibilities, you will not that when State or Local Governments are overwhelmed, they may request Federal assistance. The Governor of Louisiana did that. The help was over five days coming, because FEMA didn't know what the hell was going on, and Bush was playing guitar in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM

Thank you, Bruce, fir the assist... I have over a hundred pages run thru my printer with all that stuff but it's nice not having to go thru each page again...

This is the point I've made over abnd over but these knothead Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that...;

Sure, life is good... I have provided GUEST A a source to find out just how good my life is but yet, when I point out the4 dfriggin' truth to either GUEST A or Old Guy, all I get is "Life is good and yer wro9ng, Bobert" crap throwed back at me...

Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers...

They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true????

Freud would have a field day with these two...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:33 PM

The key peice of information is WHEN did Blanco ask Bush to take it over.

Bush asked her at least once if she wanted the Feds to take over. She said at least once that she needed 24 hours to decide.

Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions?

My post of 10:09 is directed at Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

Hey, Old Guy, I did the research, which is more than I can say for you. Read the following and weep. Then go read for general information and knowledge. I seem to know more about your country than you do.http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

"Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions?"

Gee, I wish I'd said that.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM

Like how many pages have you run thru yer printer on Katrina research, Old Guy? I've got a file that's a half inch thick and countin'.... Well over a 100 pages of stuff, all related to Katrina...

Based on the National Response Plan, Blanco was a non-entity... Or should have been...

Brown reported directly to the president on Saturday that the governor and mayor were in over their heads....

(See Brown's congressional testimony)

... that ************should**************** have triggered a top-down response.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM

Sorry, Bruce, I missed yer Part B....

Yeah, I agree 100%... I came into this thread havin' read about everything I could find irregardless of the slant...

Then you get these two knotheads who are either just making sh*t up or are gettin' sh*t that is made up for them from some Bushite blog and it's, quite frankly, purdy danged pathetic...

Like no critcal thought what so ever...

None...

Hey, the easy way would fir me to defend the locals but, hey, they were in over their heads and that is exactly what the National Response Plan is supposed to be all about....

Don't matter if Bush likes the DHS or not... He is the CEO and this was part of his job description and he blew it!!!!

Brownie did his job...

Bush blew the heck outta his...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM

Bobert, do you remember, in your post, where Rep. Shays referred to the Mayor and the Governor as incomptents?

Still waiting for an answer as to where in the NPR does it say that state responders are local and state people. The Governor is out of the picture?????????? quoting you.

This is not worth my time. You act like a bully hoping that people, which I have noticed some do, will accept your diatribe. a 100 pages of what? Really impressive! Not!....I don't care for this method of discussion, am used to it on a personal basis.

So, will depart for a while, not giving up but just utilizing my time better. This type of corresponding would be fine for houebound people but good serious discussions are better done and more fun when face to face. Plus, I see your approach is one of putdown which is the format of a bully and one who doesn't have a clear grasp of the situation. This format is not my cup of tea - it would appear to be a type for those who are introverted or can not handle face to face reality. Later.............
By the way, I have a copy of the National Response plan and I did not have to go through 100 pages to ascertain responsibility factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:07 AM

By the way Peace, did you really read all the info in that link you posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM

Deal with the facts. I owe you no answer other than the one I gave. Nothing personal, but I do not like you. I find you to be a self-satisfied ego lookin' for a place to happen. I don't care for your politics, your attitude or your presumptions. Whether or not I read all the info does not detract from what I drew attention to. Love it or shove it fellow.

You do not deal with facts when they disagree with your view of things. Such is your right. It is my right not to want to deal with you. Address the issue in future. Do not address me.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM

Thank you Peace.

What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is that there are times when first responders CAN'T GET A PHONE LINE OUT. And yes, I think FEMA should have had a plan for such an eventuality, not Tickfaw County, Louisiana. Nobody's local Plan said "whenever all land lines and satellite towers are out for a radius of 200 miles, then we'll go to the closet and get 50 satellite phones out and drive them across timber-strewn roads, so each litttle burgs with destruction can call Washington". Because no, one call from the governor doesn't do it. Then FEMA still hangs fire and says, well, if you tell us in detail exactly what you need, and exactly where, we'll see what we can do. Mississippi at least had a MEMA that had half a clue and directed aid as best it could, but the system is still screwy.

We have an national emergency response agency that we pay for. When a CAT 5 is headed for our shores, that agency needs to know what to do and mobilize massive help regardless of how corrupt the local governments are. IF IT CAN'T, then it should get out of the federal budget and leave us to our own local devices. Spontaneous response from local heroes and merciful people and organizations went a LONG way to handling this crisis. We need to stop letting Homeland Security suck up these dollars to misdirect help.

Passed through Gulfport this week, so much damage, yet the Corps and jillions of volunteers and workers have cleared the streets of a mountain range of debris. Plenty of misery but plenty of contractor crews working their butts off rehanging walls and doing roofs. Stretches where every roof that is not gone is blue. Guys camping out in car lots, truck stops, biker bar yards. National Guard guarding access to every block of the worst zones with miles of looped razor wire to keep looters from roaming around.

Lots of people trying to reclaim their busted frame houses, doing what they can. It looks more like a miner's camp than a war zone now. Lots of work in the air, lots of work ahead. Hope and pray.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM

Ditto to what Peace said, GUEST A... You accuse others of exactly what you do when you ahve been boxed into a corner by yer own danged ignorance of issues...

Hey, I gave a you a choice of issues where you thought Bush was doing a good job. It came down to Katrina... Then I give you my stuff and you sandbag for a couple weeks and then now you say that you don't want to discuss stuff no more because I am bullying you???

What a joke...

Yeah, GUEST, thanks fir the description... I've also heard from P-Gator who has been back to his house in N. O. and the stories are very similar...

I heard someone say, maybe on PBS, that there's no way to adequately describe what it's lie to be in N.O.'s... I'm sure that is true...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

Peace, you are accusing others of being like yourself.
"Nothing personal, but I don't like you". Well, that is a strange way of putting it. I don't believe I like you either and that would have to be considered personal.

Guest, the phone lines were fine the 3 days BEFORE the storm hit which was the time the evacuation should have be enforced.

I give the Governor of LA props for one thing she did after realizing she was in over her head and didn't have a clue, and that was to bring a former FEMA head to run things in the state. GWBs' biggest error was not to have declared martial law a couple days before Katrina hit after the Governor demostrated she was so wish-washy. "Well, give me 24 hours to think about it" A quote from her.

Bobert, was this P-Gator fellow in NO for the 5 days after Katrina hit? ANd, not remember where your info came from "I think it was PBS", isn't good enough. We must be sure of our sources. However, if they said what you alluded to, they are correct. And I am not sand bagging on the 'stuff' you brought forth - it just isn't good enough.

I am here to say that I am sure the city of NO can not be brought back to a pre-Katrina status.
I am also here to say that the true facts of what happened prior and after Katrina will not be known for a long, long time.
Will we all be able to admit our hits and misses on the story when the facts do come out? Should be interesting, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM

Personal or not, A, I think you're an ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM

Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:48 PM

"Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again."

Well, at last we understand each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM

I think ur an ass peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM

Like who really cares, GUEST A, where I heard it??? I spend a lot of time in my truck switching stations... I really doesn't matter one danged bit where I heard it...

Tell ya what, if you want a source wait a couple days and P-Gator will have his pudder up and he'll tell ya' the same thing... He sat right here in my house and used the words surreal...

But really, I have no idea why this statement would ruin yer whole Thanksgiving???

You are a hypersensitive person... Next thing you'll be on me fir my spellin' and typin'...

Does this make you fell all warm and fuzzy inside???

Pick yer battles, pal... It's not chizzleed in stone that every thing anyone says here needs to be attacked...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM

"I think ur an ass peace."

You would, chickenshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM

actually frontline did an excellent analysis of Katrina and the various failures..
frontline the storm

interesting points: Fema became a bit of a backwater in the 80's and presidents tended to park their political buddies with no experience in Fema. (with the Exception of James Lee Witt - a Clinton appointee, incidentally praised by George W. in the pres. debates) Witt was the only appointee with actual emergency planning background, and was able to Fema around and make it much more effective and responsive, with a focus on prevention.)

interesting also is the interview with TOM RIDGE, when asked why
there still no interoperability (in communications). his response is that its being worked on but the Federal govt. is not going to be pushed into picking a vendor and deciding on a system..

total baloney.. the fed govt. sets standards on airports, bridges, roads, harbours etc. they provide the funding not only should they set
standards, they should demand accountability..
some states got money from DHS and spent it on bulletproof vests for dogs etc because the money was there.

and TERIBus who in another thread says we should plan for the worst (in assuming Saddams wmds) .. how about planning for the worst hurricane (and anyone living in New Orleans, knew that it was quite possible the levees could fail, as they did in 1927)..

funny that Brown as well as all the other emergency planners rehearsed with a hurrican PAM in 2004 (a simulation which predicted almost exactly what Katrina did) did they learn anything..

you have to wonder about Browns comments on 'being like a fashion God' for his interviews, and email response to one of his workers when she
said we need help people are dying here!
ok let me know if there anything I should do or Tweak.
Brown..


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:07 PM

Exact point I have been trying to make, ptr...

This adnistartion talks the talk but don't walk the walk... Yeah, Junior loves to pimp out his chest and say "My job is protecting the American people."

Well, he didn't. It doesn't matter a rat's ass if it were a terrorist attack or a hurricane!!! He came up short!!! Real short....

Irregardless of Michael Brown's qualifications, it wasn't Browns call to make, it was Bush's and Chertoff's... Brown called Bush on Saturday, two days before the storm hit, and told Bush that it was gonna be either a Cat 4 or a Cat 5 and that either way it was gonna be bad, real bad...

What did Bush do???

Well, I guess by now we all know what Bush did... Not a danged thing!!! Hey, he was on vacation gol dang it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:34 PM

Bobert, all I want to know right now was this P- Gator guy in NO the 3 or 5 days after Katrina. If he was, then he may have a story to tell.

And my Thanksgiving will be fine although I can't understand how you came up with that idea.

Where did you get the idea that the first responders were the Feds in Washington?

What did Bush do? He made the mistake of honering the LA governors request to allow her 24 hours to make a decision. Her idea!
You can't possibly find fault with that as you seem to hate the Feds and are a States rights sort of guy.

I asked you earlier if P-Gator was in NO the 3 days after Katrina. Was he????????????????? This would make a big difference in his account of the situation with regard to first hand information.
I don't want to prove anyone wrong, just looking for a few facts.

I am not hpersensensitive nor do I think everything needs to be attacked. I simply want an honest answer(s) to a couple inquiries. Are you up to that?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:00 PM

What difference does it make, A??? You are obsessing on some pointless point... Fir what, I don't have a clue...

Just tell us what point younare trying to make here, pal...

You sound like some prize-fighter whio has both eyes bloodied and is just flailin' way a air...

Like, do you have a real point to make here that involves this discussion or what??

No disrespect meant, it just seems that you ahve become very obsessedwith details and missing the big piccure...

You can do better...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:27 PM

May as well piss into the wind, Bobert. No point trying to teach a cat to sing. It's a waste of your time and it irritates the cat.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:35 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:16 PM

And lets do a little review here, GUEST A...

Since 9/11 Bush has pumped out his chest and sid over and over and over that it is his jobn to protect the American people. Right so far???

Inspite of the calls from Michael Brown warning of the impending disaster, what did Bush actaully do???

Ahhhh, well, I'll tell ya what he did... He went on vacationing, whci, BTW, he doing again... The he went weat to do a little speech makin and chest pumpin' out...

The rest is history...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:06 AM

Peace:

I read that weeks ago. It says nothing except the Washington Post is fucked up in their reporting.

What I am asking is when did Blanko ask Bush to take over the National Guard from the state?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM

When you find out, please post it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:38 AM

"As Gen. Russel Honoré, commander of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Joint Task Force Katrina, stated in a September 1 briefing, the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi had requested additional assistance from the federal government "as the hurricane was approaching," beginning with a request on August 26 that DoD command centers be set up in their states. And by August 28, Mississippi and Louisiana were collaborating with the National Guard Bureau to have additional security forces sent in."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080001


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 07:45 PM

Yeah, Bruce, seems like the Bushites 'round here would rather that Katrin-Gate qwould just slip off in the night...

Ya' see, if they have to give in just one time then they are afraid they will just go off into the abyiss...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM

Peace:

You are the expert you tell us.

The state government must ask in writing for the Feds to take command of the national guard. When was it done?

Does Bobert the Katrina expert know?

I saw a National Geographic Channel special on Katrina. There was a meeting on the ground in New Orleans in Air Force one with Bush, Nagin and Blanko where this request was discussed. At that time Blanko still had not made the request. When did it happen? What was said?

If nobody here knows, they are not knowledgeable on the matter and lack credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM

You, Old Guy, obviously haven'r been readin' this entire thread... Maybe you need to go back and reread it fir content... You can't just jump into the fray if youn aren't even aware of the argu7ments that have allready been made...

Yer posts above shows that either yoyu haven't done that or you don't have a clue what has been written...

I mean no offense here but there are some premises that I laid down that superceed yer arguments... Maybe better go back and see exactly what you are arguing against...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:10 PM

"Peace:

You are the expert you tell us."

Nothing seems to satisfy you, SD in S. Hell, it's YOUR country; find out about it will ya? Ya got something to say, say it. Or, get off the pot.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM

Seems like the Bushites don't have much use fir this thread, Bruce...

Guess that says more 'bout it than anything else...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:09 AM

No Bobert, the time has arrived to ignore bias and narrowminded thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks very much as, other than generalizations and a lotta bull from the Bush apologists none seem to be up to the task of offering anything that so much as sniffs as a rebuttal to my charges...

Guess the Bush PR team is too busy fightin' on the many fronts that I predicted beforwe the '04 election that they would end up doing... And now seems that New Orleans and the south coast is slippin', slippin', slippin' into the aybiss as Americans are either concerned more about Iraq and Snitchgate or shopping that they just don't have enuff time left to worry much about New Orleans???

Wonder how they would be reactin' had New Orleans been hit by a dirty bomb???

Hmmmmmmm???

Meanwhile Bush goes about pumping out his chest saying stuff like "My job is to protect the American people'???

Go figgure???

Anyone feel all that protected by Bush??? Not me... I'd take my cousin Buddy, a few of his friends from Jersey and maybe Keeny Stoudt from high school over everything that Bush has to protect me, thank you...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:56 PM

Why hasn't the torture thread been refeshed?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:19 PM

I think the gummint should hire that new consulting firm that Michael Brown has been putting together to get some advice about what went wrong with th' FEMA at KaTREENa.

Wonder if Michael is pulling down a good retirement bonus as he embarks on his big adventure with the private secta.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM

of course he is- hes still on the payroll..
just out of interest - old guy and teribus ought to go to
the frontline website (i linked to earlier) and see what browns emails were like..
almost everytime he was asked to make a decision - he answered the email
and never made a decision..
--
and a few days into the disaster Admiral Thad Allen ended up doing all the work while they pushed Brown off into where he could do no harm..


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:32 PM

I'm standin' by my premise that Brownie, while maybe not being the most qualified person to head up FEMA, did his job and that Bush and Chentoff were itehr asleep, 'or drunk, at the wheeel...

Blamin; Brown fir Bush's failures is like playin' right into the Bush PR machines scheme ot protecting him... Hey, he is the one who akes the call, sends it down to DHS and DHS orders FEMA to act...

Folks around here still ain't got this chain-of-command thing in their heads...

Ain't 'bout Brownie...

Very much about drunk AWOL frat boy and Chentoff...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:14 PM

refresh....

Like I said, anyone blamin' MIchael Brown fir Bush's yet another AWOL is like playin' right into the Bush PR machine...

Yeah, real convient little sacricial lamb to protect the drunk frat boy yet again...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:36 PM

Wello, well, well...

Been 3 months since Katrina and looks like Bush is just gonna try to run out the clock on this one, too...

Plus, given Bush's lead many insurance companies are sand=baggin' as well...

Hey, had terrorist done this then this would be a real sexy rebuild but a hurricane???

Yeah, everyone just out and shop...

Sad commentary on just how soft the American people have become.... Many neighbor hoods are today purdy much what they lloked likethe day after the storm but like who cares???

Right???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:11 PM

The state government must ask in writing for the Feds to take command of the national guard. When was it done?

Where is it written that the state must hand over command of its own national guard before national guard units from other states can be brought in?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:12 PM

Let me ammend that...

Where is it written that the state must hand over command of its own national guard before national guard units from other states can be brought in for non-policing types of support?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:49 PM

It's not, CarolC...

The Bushites are takin' their usual path of defense in throwing up stuff that really doesn't address the big question of why the Federal Government failed and continues to fail today...

Yeah, it one thing to go 'round the country pumpin; out one's chest boasting that "My job is to protect the American people" and another to actually do it...

Bush is a LIAR.... He hasn't protected the American people... All he has done is give speeches to carefully screened audiances of loyalists... Heck, if there were only a couple hundred folks left that actually supported this man you'd never know it 'cuase they would all be at every televised rally...

Face it, Bush dropped the ball, folks... But that was on the 27th and 28th of August.... The ball I'm more concerned with is the ballha has dropped every day in the three months since Katrina....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:00 PM

Havin' fun, T???

Ya' want guess why lotta folks ain't comin' 'round this thread lately??? Well, I'll be more than happy to tell ya...

The Bush folks is playin' "sand-bag" on Katrina so they ain't gettin'/lettin' too many folks get a direct shot at 'um... In other words, they are doing the "Rope-a-Dope" and just hoping to ride it out without having to do much of anything...

Yeah, they will continue to blame the Louisnane givernor the the mayor of New Orleans when they have to defend themselves but this is yer classic defense of "run-out-the-clock" and try to pass Katrina off to the next guy...

Hmmmmm? Seems like everywhere you look at the Bush adminsiration this 'run-out-the-clock" defense is in full deployment???

Like what's that about????

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 10:16 PM

Refresh fir Ebbie...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM

Refresh - to give Bobert time to find his 'homework' He did say that he had done some - maybe the dog ate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM

Homework all done, T-Dodger...

I'm just waitin' fir either you or another Bush apologists to come up with anything other than the usaul, "We'll just have to agree to disagree" which has become the comapny fight song when you all are cornered...

Like, here we are at 81 posta and o one has offered any rebuttal to my orinal argument...

Saying that the local and state authorites weren't jup to the task is not an argument at all...

Doesn't matter if they were or weren't... Has nothing to do with my argument that Bush and Chertoff were the one's who blew it...

But, just as I predicted among time ago about snith-gate not going away, Katrina-gate won't either... It just hasn't heated up yet but it will and when it does you will surely hear the argument that I have made here...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

Bush had a reason to ignore New Orleans. It's not the favorite city of the Christian Right-Wing. It's Bush's Sodom and Gomorrah. Besides, it's a new contract for Bechtel and Halliburton. He deliberately let it go down the drain for political reasons. No one wants to talk about that. Besides, Kanye West has a point. Did black people vote for Bush?

The Army Corps of Engineers has not yet done its job. Wait 'til those Ponchatrain condos get washed away a second time.

FEMA is controlled by Bush ultimately. Anyone who doesn't get that really doesn't know what's going on.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:32 PM

Somehow, either they don't get it, Frank, or more than likely, thry now get it...

Thus the deafenin' silence from the Bush camp...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:28 PM

Some of us don't understand bullshit, Bobert.
Frank, you and Mr. West make a great team. Check out his Bio.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 06:57 PM

What part of my argument is bullsh*t, A???

That's all I've asked of you all along yet you are either unwilling or incapable ot debating this issue...

Here we are pushin' 90 posts to this thread and not one offers a rebuttal of my original argument...

And many of these posts were posted by you, A, which leads me to believe that, other than attacking me with juvilinistic responses, you have nothing really to say to defend Bush's actions regarding Katrina...

And guess what? The more you just choose to follow with rope-a-dope tactics the more I see that you are duckin' the real debate here...

Yeah, when I say things like this you may think I am attacking you personally but I'm not... All I'm doing is pointing out what must be purdy danged obvious to anyone follwing this thread... You have nothing of substance to say...

Fine...

Find another thread that you know something about...

Yeah, yer claim that I am the bullsh*ter here is a dog that won't hunt...

My argument is based on readilly attainable facts... And I
provided you with my sources...

When yer ready to do some homework and come back and tell me exaxctly what ity is you disagree with in my origanl argument than maybe I'll respond to you again but until then, my friend, I'm cuttin' you loose...

Your posts on this thread plainly aren't worth any more of my time...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM

Bobert, you are not my friend, never have and never will be.

You were kinda' fun to joust with but your attitude of rightousness makes it worthless.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Buzz
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 12:06 AM

Bobert the Katrina expert:

When did Bush ask Blanko if she wanted the Feds to take over the National Guard and her answer was "I need 24 hours to make a decision" (according to Nagin)

I will give you a hint, it was aboard Airforce One.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:30 AM

Bobert is a legend in his own mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM

More importantly, Buzzer, is when was Bush alerted that a Cat 4 or Cat5 was going to hit N.O. and that it would devistate the entire region?

As fir the shifting command of the Nationa GHuard, that would have been one of the mnay little deatils that FEMA would have been involved with...

The National Guard is a red herring and has nothing to do with the fact that Bush, upon learning of the coming disaster, didn't so much as alert his Secretary of HS, who Bush had to have know was his responsibilty in order to get FEMA involved...

According to congressional testimony by Michael Brown, some of which is in the initail post of this thread, "Brownie" was on the job and had even broken the chain of command in going to the White House with his concerns as early as the Friday *before* the storm and says that he spoke with Bush on that Saturday about his concerns...

Now if I'm a guy who has run all over the country saying "My job is to protect the American people" and I have a Cat 4 heading for a region of my country, I'm gonna cut my vacation a few days and get to doing what I have been boasting I am doing...

Now I know that the Bushites arguments are to point their fingers at local authorities but that dog don't hunt either... The Natioanl Response Plan was all about stuff like Katrina and it assumed that the local government were in over their head, in this case, literally...

But, thank you, Buzzer, fir at least gettin' in the fray here... Now maybe we can get into some of the real meat and taters of this debate...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:21 AM

Seems easy to me.

The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A.) was wasting its money and resources fighting the perceived 'terrorist threat'. The Dems may have asked for FEMA in the first place but it was Bush who was responsible for the inaction (inability) of the organization as it stands.

Bush couldn't protect the U.S. population from the 911 attack and Bush couldn't protect the U.S. population from Katrina. A good leader knows how to set priorities. Natural disaster was not high on GWB's list.

What is disgusting to the rest of the world is how the present U.S. administration always runs, lies and hides whenever the chips are down. Bush has no integrity whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:41 AM

Refresh - looks like the dog didn't only eat Bobert's homework


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 05:18 PM

Natural Disaster or Terrorist Attack the Bush administration showed it was not capable of "protecting the American people" either way, d...

What was supposed to be in place wouldn't have differentialted between the two... Oh sure, one might require differnet resourches or strategies but either way the Bush administartion failed the Amercian people yet again... The Bush administartions own National Respone Plan that was release last January made mention of natural disasters yet wheh it waas time to act on their own plan, it was the usual deer-in-the-headlights response we're getting purdy used to seeing out of these incompetent fools...

For the life of me I can't understand how folks can still defend these losers unless, od course, the defenders are part of the few you gain finacially from the fleecing of the working class...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Buzz
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM

Again Bobert, you cannot answer a single question because you do not know the answer or you know the answer will prove you are full of shit. You counter with a bunch "More Important" of questions.

You answer first


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM

Well, wel, well, Buzzer...

First of all, proclamation that someone is "full of sh*t" is nuting more tha proclaimation... It and 89 cents will get you a 12 ounce cup of coffee at the local conveince store...

Now Michael Powel has allready testified before congress that he told Bush on 27 that a Cat 4 or Cat 5 hurricane ***WAS*** going to hit the Gulf coast... This bit of information is a thousand times *MORE* imporatnt than when the Governor made the request.. I mean, really, tell us why you think this is such a *RIVETING* peice of inforamtion... Can you do that???

Now, TO WIT: According to today's Washington Post ("Panel May Subpoena Bush Aides on Storm") it looks as if Bush is trying to runout the clock with thenusual sandbagging tactics he has employed since 2001 when not wanting to provide inforamtion that will show just how incompetent this adminstration is... Oh yeah, Bush and his croonies will argue that they have turned over 450,000 documents but the problem is they aren't turning the ones over that will reveal when various folks told Bush about this or that or made ***requests***, Buzzman, for assistance...

So for you to say I'm the one who is "Full of Sh*t" is nuthing perhaps you projecting your own weak knowledge of what's really going on... Heck, there are even Republican congressfolks who want Bush to level with them...

But, hark, the Katrinq investigation is about to enter it's 90th day and will die upon that date and then it will be up to the historians to dig out the truth...

One thing is for sure, Bush and his secrecy is going to keep historians in employement for decades exposing all his cover-ups...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM

Refresh to give the Bushites yet another opportunity to defend their hero...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:54 PM

The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A.) was wasting its money and resources fighting the perceived 'terrorist threat'.

Slight correction...

The U.S. govt. (F.E.M.A) was wasting the U.S. taxpayer's money and resources (etc.)...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM

Refresh to give the Bushites yet another chance to defend their hero...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 05:42 PM

Daily refresh in case any of the Bushites have discovered something about Bush's reponse they find is defendable....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM

Oh What Fun !


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 03:09 PM

100 !!


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:11 PM

I knew it was you, Leadfingers, when I saw it had hit 100...

Yer right on top of this stuff...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Buzz
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:02 AM

Bobert:

I see you have to dig up this miserable unpopular thread and post to it when it falls off of the list due to lack of interest. Sort of like jacking off.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM

Ahhhh, first of all "jacking off" is fir teenagers... Well, maybe not in yer case...

Secondly, you know fully why I refresh this thread and ain't got nuthin to do with me but everything to do with Bush and his Brownshirt followers...

Refresh...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM

The Doonesbury comic strip which baldly satirizes the ineptitude and corruption surrounding the reconstruction in the Gulf region of the US was the subject recently of a survey of Louisiana residents who were asked what they thought of it.

By and large they seem to thinnk it is fair and represents the actual state of incpmpetence and corruption behind FEMA's efforts.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:47 AM

Amos, It says nothing about the corruption "behind FEMA's efforts" as it does to the corruption of Lousiana government officials.

Nice try, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM

Actually, the corruption is in D.C. where a bunch of radicals are in the process of fleeecing the average workining American to give big tax breaks to folks who don't need them... D.C. is definately the corruption epicenter...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:44 PM

One people divided by a common President.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:27 PM

Yeah, Bruce, like most of the things that Bush has said that turned out to be lies, his statement "I'm a uniter, not a divider" is as far from the truth as the rest of 'um...

You know, sometimes I think he's just plain stupid but other times I give him the benefit of the doubt and just figure the man as a pathological liar...

Really don't matter much... Waht he has done is solidify his presidency as one of the worst, if not the absolute worst, of any of 'um....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM

Yeah, Bruce, like most of the things that Bush has said that turned out to be lies, his statement "I'm a uniter, not a divider" is as far from the truth as the rest of 'um...

You know, sometimes I think he's just plain stupid but other times I give him the benefit of the doubt and just figure the man as a pathological liar...

Really don't matter much... What he has done is solidify his presidency as one of the worst, if not the absolute worst, of any of 'um....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM

That's twice you said that, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM

Opps... How does this happen???


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Buzz
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM

Yass Bobert, your self gratification is most impressive. Ir reminds on of the song:

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better loking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I used to have a girlfriend
but she just couldn't compete
with all of these love starved women
who keep clamoring at my feet.
Well I prob'ly could find me another
but I guess they're all in awe of me.
Who cares, I never get lonesome
cause I treasure my own company.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I guess you could say I'm a loner,
a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.
I could have lots of friends if I want to
but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
Some folks say that I'm egotistical.
Hell, I don't even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do with the way that I
fill out my skin tight blue jeans.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
We're doing the best that we can


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:10 AM

John Prine???

Awww, Buzzer, come on over an get a big hug...

Sniff...

I love John Prine songs...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Buzz:
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:19 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:21 AM

Well there ya go -- that makes up fer Bobert doubling up!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM

Ahhhh, so it was John Prine??? I remember the song... Might have don it in the mid 70's... Heck, maybe I'm makin' it all up...

But I ain't makin' up th4 fact5 that Bush dropped the ball on "protecting Americans" when it came to Katrina...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

Refresh, just in case one of the Bush apologists has come up with a "new & improved" story... Ahhhhh, heck, any story will do... They Bushites don't have any answers to this one other than personal attacks...

I love personal attacks because it means they have no other defense...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM

Bobert:

What would you have done to protect Americans during hurricane Katrina?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:01 AM

"Bobert - 20 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

I love personal attacks because it means they have no other defense..."

Well you would know pal, you make more personal attacks, and threaten more physical violence on this site than anybody else.

This thread of yours, that you had provided forewarning on that you had done your "homework on" must have proved a bit of a disappointment around 40% of the posts on it are your own.

One point though Bobert can you define the differences between "Katrina" and "Rita" the same overall organisation and procedures were used and in the case of the latter resources were constrained due to ongoing work due to "Katrina"

Are you going to congratulate those, top to bottom, involved in dealing with Rita, or doesn't your political bigotry allow that.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:27 AM

The difference in the two was in the "response", T... Yes, same overall organization just that with Katrine one thing was missing: an order for FEMA to mobilize...

Brown said he spoke with Bush two days before Katrina amd told him that he was very concerned about the possibility of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 hitting the Gulf Coast...

Now we learn that Gov. Blanko was making pleas as well... The White House is sandbagging on providing documents that would prove that...

Bottome line, if FEMA was the calvery, because of Bush's failure to order Chertoff to mobilize FEMA, the calvery was late...

And, yes, nice job on Rita...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:50 AM

Oh, an BTW, T, perhaps you find my sthick threatening but about 99% of my threats are done playfully... Like challenging Bush or Cheney to a fist fight...

There is one exception I can recall where I had a Catter blatently making false and vicious charges against me but even this Catter and I have now met personaslly and I believe we have not only a freidship but a level of mutual respect...

The rest is just plain funnin'... That's one thing I can always count of from you, however... Your absolute literalism...

And, no, there's no threat intended in that observation... Jus' calling it the way I see it...

In the word's of John Riggins to Sandra Day O'Conner, "Ya gotta loosen up, Baby..."

Peace

Bobert

p.s. I know, who's John Riggins???


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:15 PM

"Awww, Buzzer, come on over an get a big hug..."

F##kin' Kodak moment there and I missed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:47 AM

Bobert:

I see you have nothing to say about what you would do to protect Americans if you were in the same situation as Bush.

How can you know was wrong if you don't know what was the right thing to do.

Your tread is nothing but the rantings of an anarchist.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM

Haha, C-Bar...

You couldn't be further wrong if you got up at the 4:00 in the morning and packed two lunches for the task...

No, I believe very much in "govern"ment... That, my fried isn't anarchy...

But, first, what I would have done was after 9/11 and having told people that I was out to protect them, I wouldn't have allowed FEMA to get kicked so far down the food chain that if the United Sates was hit again by terrorists that the country would have no agency with the tools to deal with the aftermath... That is what Bush did... He allowed a fully functional department that had the resources and knowledge to deal with such events to be gutted...

Even the last Secretary of FEMA, who had run Bush's 2000 election, quit is disgust when FEMA was gutted...

So in answering your question, C-Bar, alllot of what IO wopuld have done is not doing alot of what Bush did... Seems that everything that Clinton had done, Bush just thought he had some mandate because he had better lawyers that Gore to undo... So he undid FEMA and then when the country needed a rapid response after a national catastrope, there wasn't a fully functional FEMA to call upon...

I think if the Martians were to drop in and take a loof at what went on that Bush is closer to be the anarchist...

BObert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM

Bobert:

You said nothing of what you would have done. You have no idea of what you would have done. Typical of you.

Turn on the vacuum cleaner and put the hose in your right ear. Do you feel air rushing into your left ear?

First of all who insisted that FFEMA had to be incorporated into DHS over Bush's objections?

Maybe it was the Martians that you think exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:49 PM

Okay, Old Guy:

1. Called off my vacation..

2. Called Michael Brown and told him to meet me at the White House on Sunday, Sept. 28th to discuss what what still intact...

3. Called Gov. Blanca and asked her to be in D.C. for the same meeting.

4. Called the Joints Chiefs of Staff and had them attend...

5. Called the Secretary of Homeland Security and had him attend...

6. Ask everyone that I called if there was someone else who should be in attendance...

7. Go on the TV on Sunday night, Sept. 28th and told the country that a massive disaster was bout to occur and plead with folks in New Orleans to try to find ways to evaculate... I would have also asked for churches and communtiy programs in neigboring states to ready themselves for incoming avacuees...

8. Alerted the Red Cross of the coming disaster..

9. Set up a command center...

10. Not stuck my head in the sand

Yeah, Old Guy, this is what I would have done... Tghis is what Bill Clinton would have done... This is what Richard Nixon would have done... This is what Jerald Ford would have done... This is what Jimmy Carter would have done... This is probably what even Reagan would have done...

Your guy???

AWOL!!!!

("Don't bother me, I'm on vacation, you morons...")

Hey, Old-G, even Bush's satff had to prepare a movie to show him so that he would ***GET*** what was going down????

Go figure????

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM

Excuse me, C-Bar,it justseems that at time you are more like O-Guy than o-Guy himself...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:17 AM

GOOOOD observation, Bobert. The man of many faces it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:46 AM

Bobert, while this will seem like a moot point to you and you will say I am too specific or you might even say "Ya gonna ream a guy for a simple mistake?", your September 28th meeting might have been a little late. By a month..
To me, this is indicative of your postings regarding Katrina. The reason I choose to ignore your ranting and ravings.

I still wonder why a man in your position would not have tossed some equipment and clothes in a vehicle and went to the area to help out for a couple weeks.

Don't forget the Feds and other agencies had hundreds of vehicles headed towards the strike zone a couple days before the hit. They could not get there in time to do the evacuation. That was up to the firsy trsponders. As I said elsewhere, the truth would come to the surface. While it is still apparent that local Government failed to a degree, many of the NO residents could not have been pried out of there with a crowbar.

About everything you list was done. The Red Cross and the Salvation Army were on the outskirts of the strike zone BEFORE Katrina hit. Doing what you suggest on Sunday night would have been a little late, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:14 AM

August 28th, gol dangit, A...

You knew I meant August 28th but being the "A" that you are you decided that since I goofed on the month that now your guy did all the right thngs... Next thing ya know you'll be declaring yer guy kind because I don't spell they way you like???

BTW, when was FEMA cut loose, A:

2 days before Katrina ________

1 day before Katrina _________

The day of Katrina ___________

1 day after Katrina __________

2 days after Katrina _________

(pick one)

And who triggers the order:

"You're doing a good good job" Brownie _____________

The Secretary of DHS Chertoff ______________________

The President ______________________________________

(Pick one)

And where does the buck stop if such an order is late coming?

Donald Duck _________

Spiro Agnew _________

Jessie Jackson ______

Hillary Clinton _____

GW Bush _____________

(Pick one)

Ya starting to get it yet, A???

You need piccures??? There plenty of them....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:07 AM

bobert, the reference to the date was simply a little dig but does imply questions about the veracity of your posts.

Why didn't you addess some of the other points in my post rather than going into the 'bobert defense mode?"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST, Old Guy
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:16 PM

1. Called off my vacation

When does Bush take a vacation? He has an office staff with him and offices at the ranch, Camp David and in Air Force 1. He is always available, even overseas.
As a matter of fact he did have a meeting with Blanco and Nagin on the ground in AF1 in NO wherein he asked Blanko if she wanted him to take over the National Guard. She said she needed 24 hours to give him an answer. She claimed to have asked him before the meeting.

2. Called Michael Brown and told him to meet me at the White House on Sunday, Sept. 28th to discuss what what still intact...

intact??? Katrina made landfall 7AM Monday the 29th.

3. Called Gov. Blanca and asked her to be in D.C. for the same meeting.

Would she have gone? How would she travel?

4. Called the Joints Chiefs of Staff and had them attend...

5. Called the Secretary of Homeland Security and had him attend...

6. Ask everyone that I called if there was someone else who should be in attendance...

All of these meetings would have been premature unless they were going to figure out a way to turn the hurricane around and keep it from hitting.

7. Go on the TV on Sunday night, Sept. 28th and told the country that a massive disaster was bout to occur and plead with folks in New Orleans to try to find ways to evacuate... I would have also asked for churches and community programs in neighboring states to ready themselves for incoming evacuees...

I knew from several sources that a disaster was going to occur. I spent Sunday afternoon and into the night convincing my daughter to leave her stuff and get out of NO. Of course you claim Bush to be a liar so folks like you would not believe him.

Also why should he override local governments. the plans that they go by say the local government is the first responder. I presume you would ignore the plans and "make up laws as you go" The New Orleans' Emergency Plan for hurricanes and The State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Planhave been made inaccessible for some reason so we can't read that. But the state has made The Federal Response Plan available on their site. Hmmmmmmmm. Does it sound like they are hiding their own failures and placing all of their responsibilities on the Federal Government?

8. Alerted the Red Cross of the coming disaster..

I am sure the Red Cross was well aware of the situation.

9. Set up a command center...

I see dozens of command centers that were set up. Most likely each agency and relief group had a command center of their own. Are you saying they should have all been in the same place or some agency did not have one?

10. Not stuck my head in the sand.

Complete sarcasm that means nothing and accomplishes nothing.

My plan of what should have been done:

A. Refuse the Democrats ( like Hillary and Kerry) demand to make FEMA part of Homeland security.

B. The residents of Louisianna and New Orleans should have voted for a Republican government. The one they have is typically irresponsible, incapable and corrupt. The way they handle the disaster is to point fingers, hide their failures, find fault with others and hold their hands out for aid.

C. Bush should have checked out "Brownie" throughly. He should go back and revisit every appointee to see of they are qualified.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:32 PM

Also why should he override local governments.

The local governments asked for assistance (they did not ask to be overridden). According to FEMA's job description, FEMA was required to provide the requested assistance, once it was requested. Not only did FEMA not provide the assistance that was needed (and requested), they actually interfered with the efforts of local authorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:05 PM

Their idea of asking for assistance is "send me everything youv'e got"

Real professional like. They only know how to ask for aid. They have no idea of how to be responsible and handle things themselves.

They had a plan. Did they follow it? How come we cannot see the plan anymore?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

"Everything you've got" really was an accurate description of what was needed.

The local people knew even before Katrina hit that they didn't have the resources to handle a storm of that magnitude. That's why they asked for assistance. The plan did not include evacuating everyone out of the city. They knew they didn't have the resources for that (Mayor Nagin said precisely that a couple of months before Katrina hit). The plan was to evacuate as many people as they could to shelters using municipal busses. And that's exactly what they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:27 PM

BTW, I've read the "plan".


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:28 PM

Well, then why is yer guy sandbagging on providing the notes and documents on his end of the deal???   Yeah, everytime he is asked for notes on his screw-ups he sandbags... Or claims executive priviledge...

Problem is that most folks just don't trust Bush any more so if I were him, I'd be doing a lot less sandbagging rather than more...

Ahhhh, BTW, O=Guy, the reason that I would have been meeeting with all the principles on August 27th or 28th is because by then I, like Bush was, wopuld have been forewarned that a major disacter was about to hit the coast...

It's called "pro-acting" rather than reacting...

Bush did not pro-act... Might of fact he went the wrong direction going to Califirnia to give a speech about his Medicaid reform ideas, which incidently means deeper and deeper cut to those who need the help the most???

Go figure???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM

You are getting your time wasted by Old Guy, Bobert. You jus' pissin' into the wind, son.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM

Send me everything youv'e got would include what? A boquet if flowers? A Dominos pizza? Someone who knows how to do my job?

It is a ridiculous statement to make, even for a woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM

All this intelligence and a sexist too. Who'd a thunk it? OG, you just go from strength to strength.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM

Yer right, Bruce...

This guy is incapable of carrying on a debate or discussion or conversation or much more than anything excpet a Fox/Bush pep ralley...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM

Send me Everything you've got would include what? A boquet of flowers? A dominoes pizza.

It is a ridiculous thing to say, even for a woman.

Now we see that Peace sired Bobert. Is daddy proud?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

Send me everything youv'e got would include what? A boquet if flowers? A Dominos pizza? Someone who knows how to do my job?

It would include everything that was dealt with in the operation Pam scenario.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM

OG, all you have ever sired is apologist crap. Bobert is a fine young man as you can see by his posts. He has the verve and good manners to post under his own name.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM

Bobert, my son, ignore that guy. He is a misled individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 11:30 AM

I found a Bobert in the phone book:

Feizel Bobert
10932 Brunson Way
Glen Allen, VA 23060
804-270-6549

I found a peace too:
A. Peace
110 Main St
Stump Creek, PA 15863
814-427-5252

So I guess you guys are legit.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Ain't no trouble finding me, Old Guy... I got a CD comin' out next month... I attend Getaways... I perform under "Sidewalk Bob"... If you want to find out even more then go to the Page News and Courier (Vol 138 No. 35, Sept.1, 2005) and check out my smiling face on the front page and a nice article about some of ther stuff I'm into...

Ain't no guessin' about my legit... I've met one heck of alot of Mudcatters who would tell ya if I'm legit... Might of fact, if you still have doubts, start a thread entritled "Is Bobert Legit?"...

Oh, BTW, may a follow-up thread entitled "Is GUEST, Old Guy Legit" might be intersting... Of course, lie the MG thread that MG prolly atarted himself under another phony "guest" you'd prolly be the obly one postin' to it...

But, what the hey, have a nice new years...

Bobert "the Legit"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM

But was yore mama and Peace married?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Edward
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:17 AM

Bush To Make Up Missed National Guard Service This Weekend

March 3, 2004 | Issue 40•09

WASHINGTON, DC—In a move intended to dispel criticism over his Vietnam-era military record, President Bush announced Monday that he will spend the weekend at the Sheppard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, TX, to make up his missed National Guard service.

Enlarge ImageBush To Make Up Missed National Guard Service This Weekend

Bush tries on his new uniform.

"My fellow Americans, let's put an end to this controversy," Bush said. "This weekend, I'll take two days off from leading the greatest nation in the world, go down to Texas, and do drills with the Texas Air National Guard, if that'll make you happy. I can't imagine anything more important for me to do than sets of push-ups with a bunch of enlisted Guardsmen."

Added Bush: "Don't let me forget to ask Cheney to fill in for me as leader of the free world. Because I'll be busy spit-shining flight boots."

Critics claim records show that Bush was not seen by his direct military superiors from May 1972 to June 1973. The controversy, which first arose during Bush's Texas gubernatorial bid in 1994, resurfaced Jan. 17, when filmmaker Michael Moore called Bush a "deserter" at a rally for Democratic candidate Wesley Clark.

Although the White House has tried to prove that Bush fulfilled his obligations by releasing torn payroll records and evidence of a dental check-up, many remain unconvinced. Critics have said Bush's reluctance to release his entire military file indicates that he's hiding something.

"Go ahead and wave your dusty stacks of papers, call names, and point fingers," Bush said. "I'm just going to have to be the bigger man."

Bush, whose approval numbers have declined in recent weeks, said the accusations were false, but that he was willing to do "whatever it takes to please everybody" so that he "can return to the business of governing the country."

"I had to cancel dozens of appointments with cabinet members, congressional leaders, and foreign dignitaries," Bush said. "All that stuff's going to have to wait, since this 30-year-old story is apparently a pressing national concern, or something."

White House communications director Dan Bartlett appeared on CNN with Wolf Blitzer to defend the president.

"Others want to focus on talk, but President Bush is focused on action," Bartlett said. "George Bush, whose chief priority is keeping our country safe in a post-September 11 world, believes that going down there and making up a couple days' service is the best way to finally put this issue to rest."

Retired Army Gen. John Wilcox warned Bush that his service in Alabama might have unexpected consequences.

"Once he gets there, he's an enlisted man like anybody else," Wilcox said. "A lot of other National Guard and Army reservists thought they were just signing up for some tame domestic training and ended up in Iraq or Afghanistan. The president is taking a real risk here. For his sake and the sake of the nation, I hope he doesn't get shipped out."

At a press conference Monday afternoon, a reporter asked White House press secretary Scott McClellan why Bush wasn't making up his time in Alabama, where critics say he failed to report for drills during the entire time he was working on a family friend's U.S. Senate campaign.

"Well, the president is familiar with the base in Texas, so he chose to do his service there," McClellan said. "Why would he go to some random base in Alabama that he's never even been to before? I mean—let me start over. He did serve at the Alabama base, but we felt it would be easier to accommodate travel to a base that was closer to his ranch in Crawford. Case closed."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:20 AM

"But was yore mama and Peace married?"

Absolutely. Unlike your background--you having been begat on a duchess by a head waiter--ours is darn near immaculate.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Just figgered it out.
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 02:59 AM

Old Guy is not all that old and 'he' is not a guy. You lasted a few months. Better than you deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:06 AM

bobert, with regard to many of your posts, it would appear your concern with being "legit" is your greatest concern.
A CD coming out , attending getaways and performing as sidewalk bob mean nothing to the casual observer. Next time you do a show in Chicago, let us know. The music scene there is going well.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:31 AM

The point was that I am not an annonomous GUEST, GUEST, as someone implied... I'm a real person who ain't all that hard to find, unlike those like yourself who have all the courage of a drive-by shooter...

Yeah, it's easy to attack others from GUESTdom...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:12 AM

No attack intended, I noticed you are easily offended when no real offense is intended. Besides, I am "Guest", you are "Bobert" and how much definition does that give the 'casual observer'?

Did I not say "let us know the next time you are in Chicago"?

Certainly did not mean to imply you are 'a-nony-moose'.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM

Does Bobert have the courage to fight for his country or would he rather fight for thr deserters who flee to Canuckistan?

I heard something about a hanging down in Fort Jefferson for some people who thought they were doing the right thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 03:20 PM

Ain't 'bout one courage or lack there of... I've put my self in harms way to fight the good fights, be it fighting for civil rights, stopping dumb-ass wars, teaching GED in the Richmond city jail or working at a drug rehab facility in the roughest neighborhood in Richomond...

Courage is measured an many different forms...

Maybe you'd like to strp out from behind the duck-mask long enough to share what you have done in yer life that required courage, GUEST, Geoduck...

As fir GUEST, guest... Hey, it ain't paranoia if they are out to get you... Seems that a few of us get under the Bushite's skin here because we expose Bush for the lousy president he is and our reward for exposing Bush are constant attacks from these Bushites...

So, yeah, I'll admit that if yer an Amos, or a Ron Davis, or a Bobert, these folks are gonna try to roll you under the bus every chance they get... That's all they have left... They think if they loose one danged point then the house of cards will fold so they claw and the distratc and they call folks names and, and, and...

Sure, I mess with folks names but I don't do it with maliciosness but a level of humor that doesn't come accross when these folks attack me... Perfect example is right here... I sometimes call Geoduck, Quackster or Duck... (Like, how mean spirited, Bobert)... In turn I get post like the one above from the Quacki which implies that someone who does not agree lockstep with the policies of his country does not have "courage"??? LIke what is that all about???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM

You are not exposing anyone or anything. Simply listing wildassed charges and quoting the opinions of others because they happen to agree with your biased way of thinking.

I think GWB is doing a fairly good job inasmuch as the Country was allowed free wheeling the 8 years before him and even possible a little of that happened with Bush 1.


What a mess GWB come into, the Country settling into a recession, the military cut in half, foreign relations on the back burner and several countries given the gift of A-Bomb possibilites by his predecessor and a couple of half-baked appointees. Madeline and The secret document thief come to mind. "It was just an accident that those papers ended up in my socks."

And then 9-11 which was just the next part of an escalating series of terriost operations which include the World trade center a few years before, the Saudi barracks, the Kuwaiti barracks, the USS Cole, the US foreign Embassies, etc. Don't you think that whoever was watching the store could have caught a clue?

Naw, lets just blame a President who is trying to correct all those messes.

I don't know if I qualify to be "Bushite" or not. I am not really sure what that is. However, if I do have enough points to be called one, let me be the first to assure you that you cannot get under my skin. I have not seen the talent here necessary to do that.

You apparently have grandiose thoughts about your abilities. That is delusional. We shall work on the paranoid tendencies later.

Just don't look over your shoulder until that lesson is covered.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 05:42 PM

Oh, it is Geoduck again. The dumb shit who said there were WMDs in Iraq, even when Bush disagreed with him. Welcome back stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

Yeah, GUEST, since you think Bush is doing such a fine job maybe you'd like to go back the first post in this thread and answer for him.... Here we are over 150 posts and other then partisan opinios and name calling by you and the other "couragous" GUESTS I can't think of one of you who has provided the slightest rebuttal to that original argument that I presented...

Yeah, big brave GUESTS... Can sho nuff huff n' puff but that seems to be about all you collectively have done since I started this thread...

Tell me why Michael Brown took the bullet...

Tell me again why the National Response Plan wasn't followed...

Tell me again how great a job Bush is doing protecting the Amercian people...

You won't... Heck, none of you Bushite GUESTS can....

You'll just try to brush this off... great defense... ignore ther facts and real arguments...

Normal...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM

"Yeah, GUEST, since you think"

That was your first erroneous assumption, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:01 PM

Good point, Bruce... Maybe that's why they call 'um GUEST's???


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM

I am pointing out the wrong thinking of maladjusted people like Amos, Peace, Ron D and Bobert.

Their thinking is biased because Bush won the election twice despite their best efforts to keep him from winning.

Then they claim he did not win and they rail against everybody that tries to inform them of the truth. They cannot produce any facts to support their positions. They resort to scarasm, entertainment, altering people's names, really credible stuff. All the while they say things like "statistics are for loosers"

Remember those Japs they found in the Phillipines a few years back? They still believed they were at war while the rest of the world was moving along.

It is time for these in denial people to join the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM

Hey. Old 'shit for brains' is back. Gonna tell us all about--uh, yeah, WMDs that were found in Iraq?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:50 PM

"Remember those Japs they found in the Phillipines a few years back?"

But then one should expect shit for brains from a racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

Bobert, thought I'd take a look here after seeing your message to the anonymouthed guests.
I haven't posted here because I got sorta low about the whole affair, since the maximum leader has only suggested ante-ing up for 3 level hurricane protection when more is needed. Especially when the main levees that protect N. O. from flood are on the navigable canal which is the responsibility of the federal government.

The Impeach thread didn't catch my interest either, since if bushy is tossed, the next in line is scary rather than just plain stupid.

Even the possibility of making a nice bit of change building condos and marinas in the Ninth Ward, after the po' were displaced and trailered and suckered out of their title deeds, didn't raise my spirits much.

But such is life where an administration spends billions killing Iraqis and young Americans, when so much needs attention at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 10:53 PM

Yo Q:

I can understand some of what you are saying but what is the situation down there on local corruption?

We need more people posting here, pro and con, guests or not. The cons think this is their turf and get hostile when someone opposes them by pointing out their fabrications.

Freedom of speech is reserved for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:18 AM

There seems to be a measure of corruption wherever contracts are involved, regardless of the level of government. Some blame must adhere to the Louisiana Congressmen who voted to spend half a billion (and rising) on a bridge across the Navigation Canal and postpose spending on levees along it, but this neglect of levees along a federally maintained navigable waterway is a result of failed federal responsibility, including the president's.

A bridge to nowhere in Alaska is approved in Congress when the same amount of money could help improve our waterways and highways; many other examples of pork-barreling and waste could be mentioned.

A few corrupt cops and inept local politicians is small potatoes, compared with failure to lead and to fight mis-directed spending at the federal level.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM

A slight addendum, Q: the "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska has been cancelled at the moment. There were a number of responses from Alaskans and others, calling for redirection of those 23 Million dollars and Congress eventually allotted the overall sum and told Alaska to figure out for herself where she wants to spend it. The governor's administration is working on that now.

Incidentally, as I've mentioned in a thread before, Bridge to Nowhere never quite reflected the truth. It is true that only about 50 people live on the island; however, the airport is on that island and outgoing and homecoming townspeople have to pay $12.00 each way for a very short ride each time they leave town or when they meet someone at the airport. Notwithstanding that, not only other Alaskans but many Ketchikan people were agin it. One person FOR it was the governor, who grew up there.

Now, ask me about the "Million Dollar Bridge to Nowhere", and we'll have something to talk about. That was erected in the wilderness under Republican Governor Wally Hickel back in the 60s or 70s.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:08 AM

I could have envisioned the money spent for a new airport on the mainland. Island airports )except in Japan) are very small and probably would not have required $23 million. But, that is sensible.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:53 PM

You're probably right, Ebbie (haven't looked it up). CNN made it sound like the equivalent in magnitude to the Great Wall of China.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:11 AM

Times Pickayune Saturday, January 07, 2006
The mayor and council have been sparring about which sites in New Orleans should be used to house trailers as temporary homes for returning residents. The council had passed an ordinance giving its members authority to block trailer sites in their districts after the mayor had proposed sites that included parks and playgrounds. Nagin vetoed the ordinance but the council overrode the veto. Nagin then said the trailers site would stand, regardless of the council action, but later back tracked.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:35 AM

CNN Transcript:

GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO, LOUISIANA: Well, in the heat of battle a lot of things happen. And we feel like we're in the heat of battle. That having been said, we had a great day together. The president came in and we believe that he solidly is behind our efforts, without a doubt.

O'BRIEN: Solidly behind your efforts, although there's been much written about kind of a power tussle between the two of you. Specifically, the mayor was telling us about a flight on Air Force One. And he said that you and he and the president were all in a room and finally you and the president went separately to have a meeting.

Listen to what the mayor told us, ma'am, if you will.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: He called me in that office after that and he said, Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said -- and I don't remember exactly what -- two options. I was ready to move today, but the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

O'BRIEN: Twenty-four hours, is that right? Was that what came out of that meeting on the tarmac with the president?

BLANCO: Soledad, the mayor was not in my meeting. And it was -- I'll tell you, it was a meeting that did not affect what was going on out in the field. They were talking about paper organizations, nothing else, nothing more, and they gave me a very complicated proposition to look at. It didn't help our effort in that instant moment. I needed a little time to understand exactly what it meant. We went forward, all of us, all of the resources were there, nothing stopped. We ended up coming to terms and agreement, and I think that the effort is going great.

O'BRIEN: Coming to terms, meaning that you rejected, after that 24-hour window, that you didn't have any interest in federalizing the troops or turning power over to the president. Why not hand it over, Madam Governor, when the first five days, and I think that meeting was on Friday, so the first several days of the recovery were clearly disastrous?

BLANCO: The first five days of the recovery were heroic. We were the people who took control. The National Guard took control of the city, brought order out of chaos, because we have law enforcement authority. The federal troops do not. I was very concerned about giving up law enforcement authority.

O'BRIEN: Heroic, but by a very small number of people who were on the ground. In fact, I believe it was Friday morning when I was talking to the FEMA director who had only just seen that there were tens of thousands of people at the convention center. So at least by Thursday, let's say the first four days, those people at the convention center were actually not getting anything. If it was not well coordinated...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM

Like, who cares...

This is testimony aboutr vents that happened welll after Bush failed to repond...

FEMA, using the Natinoal Respose Plan, should have been on this days before what Blanco is talking about here...

But good try, GUEST... Keep workin'...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:27 PM

It don't take much of a try. You say "should have been" You don't know?

Katrina expert Bobert, when did you know who say this:

Miles O'Brien: What what day did you ask for Federal troops? "I don't even know what day it is."

"I really need to call for the military, I mean, I really should have started that in the first call."

Why is Nagin fighting with the city council while FEMA is sitting on thousands of RV's that people need asking where to put them while the arguees are both pointing a finger at FEMA saying they are taking too long?
That don't even take a try. It is slam dunk evidence that the government down there is incoptent. COuld they be Democrats?

Put some facts where your mouth is.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM

Nice piece of BS, Duckster...

So, Duckster, when did this conversation occur???

Ahhhhh, while you are explaing that, how about expalining how turning over of troops to N.O would have triggered FEMA to act???

Kinda fuzzy on that one...

Please review the NRP before answering since you've allready made a "duck" of yerself her with the last post...

Bobert (Katrina expert)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 01:09 AM

So these are facts? They are not and that is a fact.

All research from the Let's blame it on Bush research center and no results.

I guess "send me everything you have" should have triggered FEMA and the Navy Marching band too.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM

Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise...

http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html

"You may have seen mention of the "Hurricane Pam" exercise in press coverage of Louisiana's emergency preparedness, or lack thereof. I was at the Hurricane Pam exercise, and I think maybe I can clear a few things up...

...There was a certain amount of contention, a few turf wars, some loud talk. None if it consequential, in the end, because of the single greatest emollient: FEMA. The Federal Emergency Management Agency promised the moon and the stars. They promised to have 1,000,000 bottles of water per day coming into affected areas within 48 hours. They promised massive prestaging with water, ice, medical supplies and generators. Anything that was needed, they would have either in place as the storm hit or ready to move in immediately after. All it would take is a phone call from local officials to the state, who would then call FEMA, and it would be done. There were contracts-in-place with major vendors across the country and prestaging areas were already determined (I'll have more to say about this later, but this is one reason FEMA has rejected large donation and turned back freelance shipments of water, medical supplies, food, etc: they have contracts in place to purchase those items, and accepting the same product from another source could be construed as breach of contract, and could lead to contract cancellation, thus removing a reliable source of product from the pool of available resources. I'm not saying I agree with this -- in fact, I don't, and think it's boneheaded -- but the reasoning is that if they accept five semis of water from the east Weewau, Wisconsin, Chamber of Commerce, the water supplier who is contractually bound to provide 100,000 gallons per day will be freed from that obligation.

The organizers of the exercise -- particularly the former commender of LOHSEP, Col. Michael Brown (not that one) -- insisted that the plans contain no "fairy dust": no magical leaps of supply chains or providers: if you said you would need 500 semis for your part of the plan, you had to specify where the 500 semis were coming from. Everyone tried to keep the fairy dust to a minimum, and they did so, for the most part, despite having big plans: LSU, Southern, Southeastern and other campuses dismissed for the semester and turned into giant triage centers/tent cities; acres of temporary housing built on government-owned land; C-130 transport planes ferrying evacuees to relatives in other states, and so on. Bold plans, but doable, with cooperation. A comprehensive plan was beginning to emerge.

Except that it didn't. A followup conference, to iron out difficulties in some of the individual plans and to formalize presentation of the final package, scheduled for either late '04 or early '05 -- I can't remember and can find no mention of the followup event on the web -- was cancelled at the last minute, due to lack of funding (which agency called the cancellation, I'm not sure, although the lack of funds would take it all back to FEMA, in the end).

So: Louisiana did have a hurricane plan, but was devising a new one, to be based on recommendation from the people who would actually be doing the work. The need to evacuate people from impact areas, including those without transportation or the means to obtain it, was discussed, despite media assertions to the contrary. The possibility of levee overflow was discussed (levee breaching may have been discussed at some point, but I was in the dewatering room, and I never heard it mentioned. A rescue and evacuation plan, including sheltering, was reasonably firm. There were and are officials in Louisiana, including New Orleans Emergency Management, who know the limitations of current planning and who have been trying to come up with a better solution.

The problem is FEMA, and by extension the Department of Homeland Security, which gobbled FEMA up in 2003. FEMA promised more than they could deliver. They cut off deeper, perhaps more meaningful discussion and planning by handing out empty promises. The plans that were made -- which were not given any sort of stamp of authority -- were never distributed or otherwise made available to those who most needed stable guidance; they vanished into the maw of FEMA and LOSHEP (probably when Col. Brown was removed from his command due to financial "irregularities" -- the project was tainted after that). Adoption of the National Incident Management System (NIMS) would have made most of the plans moot anyway -- FEMA's adherence to the untried NIMS is a primary reason for the chaos and ineptitude surrounding their relief efforts."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:33 AM

Katrina Gate 101 for the Duck

Once upon a time, a very bad thing happened and some angry people from Saudi Arabia hyjacked 4 American Airliners and flew 2 of the into buildings in New York, 1 into the Pentagon and the last airliner crashed in a Pennsylvania woods. This occured on September 11th and so it has since just been referred to as "Nine Eleven".

Well, after nine-eleven, Presdent Bush confessed that his administartion had not "connected the dots" but promised to do better in the future even if it meant "hard work" because he said it was his job to "protect the American people".

So his inner circle of friends had secret "connect the dots/protect the American people" meetings and decided that FEMA didn't need to be a Department anymore and so they gutted it and demoted it.

                      End of Lesson 1


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:36 AM

The same circumstances still prevail. Those who want to blame GWB for any negative concerning Katrina (and their ingrown toenail)are still brushing off, ignoring or just failing to comprehend facts that appear negative to the NO and LA governments. I wonder what it will take. Nevermind, negative mindsets are just that.

Why did Mississippi have pretty good results? MS is well on the road to rebuilding while NO is STILL arguing where to place trailers for housing those still in other cities.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM

Stay tuned, A, for Lesson Two...

And, BTW, yes, there will be a test after all the lessons have been completed so you perhaps should pay close attention...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:54 AM

Whoa Perfesser square pants, if you are going recite history to us to build a foundation for your rant aginst the government, let's go back to when New Orleans first became part of America.

Thomas Jefferson violated the Constitution in the process so maybe we should reverse his decision give it back to France. We have to keep an eye on those presidents who make up their own laws and fix up what they broke don't we?

The Louisiana Purchase


http://gatewayno.com/history/LaPurchase.html

By a treaty signed on Apr. 30, 1803, the United States purchased from France the Louisiana Territory, more than 2 million sq km (800,000 sq mi) of land extending from the Mississippi River to the Rocky Mountains. The price was 60 million francs, about $15 million; $11,250,000 was to be paid directly, with the balance to be covered by the assumption by the United States of French debts to American citizens.

In 1762, France had ceded Louisiana to Spain, but by the secret Treaty of San Ildefonso (1800) the French had regained the area. Napoleon Bonaparte (the future Emperor Napoleon I) envisioned a great French empire in the New World, and he hoped to use the Mississippi Valley as a food and trade center to supply the island of Hispaniola, which was to be the heart of this empire. First, however, he had to restore French control of Hispaniola, where Haitian slaves under TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE had seized power (1801; see HAITI). In 1802 a large army sent by Napoleon under his brother-in-law, Charles Leclerc, arrived on the island to suppress the Haitian rebellion. Despite some military success, the French lost thousands of soldiers, mainly to yellow fever, and Napoleon soon realized that Hispaniola must be abandoned. Without that island he had little use for Louisiana. Facing renewed war with Great Britain, he could not spare troops to defend the territory; he needed funds, moreover, to support his military ventures in Europe. Accordingly, in April 1803 he offered to sell Louisiana to the United States.

Concerned about French intentions, President Thomas Jefferson had already sent James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston to Paris to negotiate the purchase of a tract of land on the lower Mississippi or, at least, a guarantee of free navigation on the river. Surprised and delighted by the French offer of the whole territory, they immediately negotiated the treaty.

Jefferson was jubilant. At one stroke the United States would double its size, an enormous tract of land would be open to settlement, and the free navigation of the Mississippi would be assured. Although the Constitution did not specifically empower the federal government to acquire new territory by treaty, Jefferson concluded that the practical benefits to the nation far outweighed the possible violation of the Constitution. The Senate concurred with this decision and voted ratification on Oct. 20, 1803. The Spanish, who had never given up physical possession of Louisiana to the French, did so in a ceremony at New Orleans on Nov. 30, 1803. In a second ceremony, on Dec. 20, 1803, the French turned Louisiana over to the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:13 AM

Katrina Gate 101- Lesson Two

(Teacher's note to Duck: Please do not disturb the class anymore about things that don't pretain to these subject matter of this class. If you'd like to discuss the history of New Orleans then please sign up for "History of New Orleans 101". Thank you)

Now after FEMA was gutted and demoted to "protect the American people" the Department of Homeland Security became the big dog and not only was it responsible for protecting the American people but it came in as a full departemnt with it's Secretary being in the president's cabinet.

Now just to be sure that all the "dots were connected" and the "American people would be safe" the Department of Homeland Security and the folks on the president's staff developed something called the National Response Plan. The NRP looked at many scenerios where it might have to act in the event of a natural or terrorist led disaster. It even wnet so far as to plan for an event that might render local governemnts helpless. Within the NRP were procedures that would be followed if such an eventy occured.

Now, the United Sates governemnt has a chain of command much like any business or corporation or the military and orders come from the top and are passed downward. In the case of a nutural or terrorist led disaster the command would look something like this: President orders the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security to act and the Secretary of DHS oders varuious agenciesm. including FEMA, to act. Can FEMA act on it's own, you might ask. Well, that's a good question. The answer is, "No". It must be ordered to act by the Secretay of the DHS who had been ordered to act by the president.

                           End of Lesson 2


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:41 AM

Mississippi did not have good results. They had dismal results. Same problems with FEMA as New Orleans. The difference is that because New Orleans remained under water for a much longer amount of time, the problems caused by FEMA in New Orleans were greatly magnified as compared to Mississippi.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 12:08 PM

Perfessor. I want to know if this class is about Katrina or George Bush or what governments are supposed to do?

If it is about Katrina it should begin when Katrina hit. If it is about what governments do in the event of a hurricane, it should begin in 1803.

If it is about President Bush it should be named "Bush 101".

And where does "gate" apply? Are those the flood gates that President Johnson has appopriated but doogoody, establishment bucking "environmentalists" defeated?

If so it should be called "New Orleans Flood Gate 101"

If it is about FEMA it should be called "FEMA 101" and should include the history of FEMA at least as far back as when the Democrats demanded that it be joined into DHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,George
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM

Hey Brownie, send everything we've got down to New Orleans, Blanko says she needs what ever it is.

No. I thought you would know what it is.

No she didn't say where to put it, just get it on the way and hopefully she can figger it out later on.

Adios.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:48 PM

PS: Also it was the Dems that demanded that DHS be created.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:31 PM

Yes, the Democrats suck too. Now... what are we going to do with that useless behemoth (DHS)?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:58 PM

Katrina Gate 101- Lesson 3

(Note from the teacher to the Duck: This class is about Katrina"GATE" and having the "agte" part thrown in should be a clue that a scandal is involved. No more disruptions.)

Okay, here the United Sates had a plan in place where in the case of a "natural" or terrorist led disaster the feds knew what they had to do. Or one might think since the president had gone around the country saying that tho it was hard work it was his job to "protect the American people".

Now, given the fact that the plan was in place, the chain of command fully understood by all the parties, all that the president needed was to issue orders to impliment the plan.

According to Michael Brown, he started to send up alerts to thew White House as early as August 26th, 3 full days before the hurricane and has stated under oath that he spoke with the prseident on Saturday, August 27th about his concerns that a Category 4, perhaps a Category 5 hurricane would hit the Gulf shore on the 29th of August.

Now, fir those good students who have not been a disruption here is where the "gate" come into play. What did the president do on August 27th, two full days before the hurricane hit New Orleans, having been warned of the impending disaster and having a plan in place to "protect the American people"? This is the crux of Katrina"gate" and this is why we are having this discussion.

Did Bush alert the Secretary of Homeland Security so he could order FEMA into action? Well, apparently, the president didn't. He, afterall, was on vacation.

                      The End of Lesson 3


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:19 PM

What happened to the concept that the first responders are local and State people and that FEMA arrives AFTER the event?


I always wonder what would happen if we moved ALL our resources (FEDS) into the area BEFORE the crap hits the fan. WOuld not that just make more junk to clean up?

Maybe, just maybe, my 114 page NRP document is an old issue, say from the 1920's?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:36 PM

What happened to the concept that the first responders are local and State people and that FEMA arrives AFTER the event?

That appears to have gone out the window when the federal govt. (in the form of FEMA) decided to impose the National Incident Management System (NIMS) on the local governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 07:19 AM

Back to my original question, the Feds imposed nothing without the consent of the Governor, who always wanted "24 hours to think it over". I will need a source

And Carol C, @ 09 11:41.....I will certainly agree that "the problems of NO were greatly maginified as compared to Mississippi..."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM

Actually, GUEST G, you apparently missed missed one of the lessons... The Natiopnal Response Plan that the Bush administartion had in place autghorizes a "federal" response should local or state authorities be overwhelmed.... I would suggest that was the case with Katrina...

That's my point here and that's why the "gate" in KatrinaGate...

1. The Feds supposedly had a plan...

2. Bush was warned that the plan would be needed by Micheal Brown...

3. Bush ignored the catastrophy...

And I guess what is so amazing that with all the mis=steps of the Bush administartion, Brownie, who was doing his job with waht few tools were left in FEMA to act, took the weight...

Had Bill Clinton done exactly what Bush did you Bushites would be making every argument that I have made here...

Does that make me a Clinton apologists??? Heck no!!! Didn't care for his policies either but at least he wasn't the one responsible for gutting FEMA and kicking it down the ladder...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:49 AM

What plan was there to make the locals, read city/state, not refuse to evacuate. Saturday and Sunday was too late to start the evacuation on a local scene. What could the Feds have done from a 1000+ miles away.

And............Mississippi and later Texas did a timely evacuation without federal intervention. And, Clinton could not have done more if this had happened 6 years ago.

One more thing, what was "the catastrophy" on that Saturday and Sunday?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM

But the problems were the same. FEMA promised things that it didn't deliver. And because FEMA promised those things, people expected to be able to rely on them. FEMA promised a support structure that the local governments had every reason to expect would be there when it was needed. It wasn't. And not only that, but when there was any FEMA involvement, it often was in the form of interference with the efforts of the local governments and first responders.

Yes the problems were magnified in NO. But they were essentially the same problems in all of the locations, with varying degrees of disasterous consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:09 PM

The Texas evacuation for Hurricane Rita was a disaster. There was nothing "timely" about that evacuation. The New Orleans evacuation was far more effectively executed. And the Texas evacuation left pretty much the same amount of people at home as the New Orleans evacuation. Plus a lot of people were stranded on the highway in the Texas evacuation when Rita hit. Had Rita hit that area as hard as Katrina hit Louisiana and Alabama, and had the local topography been the same, the loss of life would have been horrendous.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:41 PM

Carol C, you sound as if you were there. What was your location?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM

Sounds like I was where, Texas?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:09 PM

I suppose it doesn't really matter where you're talking about.

GUEST,A, I didn't need to be there because I have magical powers. For the uninitiated, we call these magical powers "reading". With the magical power of "reading", I can learn the contents of other people's minds and understand things from their perspective. In this context, I have used my magical powers of reading to learn the contents of the minds of people who were there. And that is how I learned what I know about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM

Perfessor Squarepants did you hear that Blanko is gettin' rolled under da bus? Is it to late to include it in this class

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-10-blanco-recall_x.htm

... Kat Landry, who filed a recall petition with state elections officials, said Louisiana needs new leadership to recover from the storms' back-to-back blows.

"What we have seen in the past few months is a lack of leadership, a lack of communication, a lack of understanding of how to get things done," Landry said.

In Louisiana, getting a recall on the ballot requires petition signatures from at least one-third of the state's registered voters, or about 900,000 people, in 180 days, according to Jennifer Marusak of the secretary of state's office....


Maybe we should all go down there on a field trip and beat up on people so they won't sign that pertiton, Al-Qaeda style.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM

Just as I did, CarolC, though I must admit that with lexdeia sometimes it can be a chore but I originally challenged one of these Bush-heads to name any Bush policy that they felt all warm and fuzzy defending and so they, NOT ME, chose Bush's Katrina policy/action....

So I went on a reading spree... It ain't hard to research stuff with Google... A couple hours and opne can have a purdy good grasp of an issue... And the nice thing about Google is that you get cross-sectional perspectives...

So that's what I did for an entire evening and I ran off copies of stuff, much like I would have done doing a term aper in college except bnot having to write out the index cards...

And then I proposed my argument and here we are zeroing on 200 posts to thwei thread and not one Bushite has been able to crack my original argument... I nmean, lets look at the latest... GUEST-G says that the feds aren't up to the task of handling disasters "1000 miles away"????

I know, where's the logic in this... If it's Bush' hjob to connect the dots and "protect the American people" then he cann't put in any fine print on location... What if the terrorists had hit New Orleans, GUEST G???

"Well, gee, we're real sorry about that, Governor, but it's out of our delivery radius..."

See what I've had to put up with, CarolC???

Ahhhhh, just fir the record, GUEST, G-zer... If Bush found Iraq, I'm sure he could find New Orleans....

Now who wants to be 200...

Leadfingers???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM

Maybe we should all go down there on a field trip and beat up on people so they won't sign that pertiton, Al-Qaeda style.

You can if you want to, but personally, I don't think that will accomplish much of anything. Even if Blanco goes, we'll still be stuck with the DHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM

Well, looks like I beat leadfingers to it... Sorry, pal...

Now as fir the Quackster's last post.... Ahhhh, like what does this have to do with this discussion... You are hell-bent on shifting the blame anywhere but where is belongs... I couldn't care less if they recall Blanko... She has nothing to do with the argument I have presented and you, to dat, have not provided anything other than smoke in rebuttal to my orignal argument...

For the 10th time... Who gives a rat's ass about Blanko... She has nothing to do with the ordering the Secretary of DHS to order FEMA to act... She ain't the friggin' president, the last I looked...

Go back and review yer lessons, Duck... I tried to bring it way down to readable for you Bush faithfuls... I din't use no big words to confuseart you 'er nuthin yet you still seem confused...

Professor Squarepants


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM

Truth bounces off of Spongebobert squarepanties like bullets off of Superman.

Here he sits in the garden spot of America preaching to his disciples about what goes on in New Orleans. Looks like some people at ground zero know a few things he don't.

I heard from an impeccable source that state and local authorities are the first responders.

Calling all cars, calling all cars. Now hear this. Send us every thing you have.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM

Impeachable source? Sounds about right.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:12 PM

More qucking from the "quack gallery"...

The old if-you-haven't-been-there-you-can't-possibly-know-anything-about-it argument....

So, I ask the Duck if he/she thinks the moon exists and the Duck says, Sure it does"...

So using Quack-logic I say "Well, have you been there, Duck?'

"Well, no, I haven't" quacks the quaster...

...to which I reply in quack-logic, "Then it must not exist if you haven't been there..."

You stickin' with this game plan, Duck???

The Teach


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM

Geoduck, just let it go - you will never convince the likes of Carol and Bobert about anything. I have been trying to get bobert to come up with some real facts but he just can't do it. He doesn't have a clue as to how far off base he is. I guess in some repects I was baiting him but Lord knows I gave him every opportunity to redeem himself.

Bobert, you friggin' moron, go back and read the posts. I was there before the dam'n winds died down, had to wait to move into the outskirts of New Orleans and watch the local/ state governments prevent the Red Cross from doing their job. The Salvation Army managed to get some relief supplies into the dome before the Govenrnor said "no, we don't want more people to come here. If they find out we have all this stuff, they will just keep showing up."

Bobert, you are one blind, hateful individual who does his dam'ndest to make others think you are Mr. Right. You are such a phoney and are so blind to the truth.
I bid you farewell, you are not worth the time!


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

Yes I have been there several times. I ate the beignets sitting at a sticky table in the in the Cafe Du Monde. Went to the French Quarter market. I strolled the levee and Riverwalk. I rode the street cars. I rode in an antique Rolls with a police escort (just grease a few palms) when my daughter got married in an old mansion down there. Attended a private crawfish boil. I drank Turbodog beer. I ate Cajun food in a famous restaurant with the squeeze boxes and Cajun dancing. I been to the zoo. I saw all of the poor parts of New Orleans that are like a third world country and like a third world country it is ridden with corruption.

I heard second hand about a couple that wanted to open a Curves but they refused to pay bribes. They could not get ther license and lost their ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:56 PM

Let's not be too hard on the Ol' Bobster.

He is just pissed at Bush for winning and he is trying to use Katrina as a platform for his rant.

Time will tell. 'Course, if he would put some Adolph's in his Wildroot Cream Oil he would come around a lot faster.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption. FEMA is the responder after the diaster happens. If all the relief supplies are moved in before the problem accurrs, that would result in a bigger cleanup process.

The primary thing to do is evacuate the residents in the path of the storm prior to it hitting the area. That is easier accomplished using buses, trains, etc., in the projected path of the Huirricane, not from Federal sites 1000 to 2000 miles away. Can you say "travel time?"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM

The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption.

This statement makes me very skeptical of your assertions that you were there shortly after the storm hit. If you're 10 miles away with all of the communication lines down and most of the roads impassable, for all practical purposes, you might as well be a thousand miles away in terms of how effective you can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM

Oops. My mistake. That was the other alphabet GUEST who made that assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

BTW, the number of busses they had wouldn't have been enough to evacuate more than a fraction of the number of people who didn't have their own transportation. Amtrak is owned and operated by the federal government. The Louisiana National Guard might have been able to do the job, but most of the equipment they would have needed for that job was in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM

Carol C, they could have least tried a little harder - and I will concede the fact that many citizens said "Hell no, I won't go!" Their welfare checks were coming in a few days.

How many city/school buses did they have available?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM

How do you know they didn't Guest,G? The fact is, they made a decision that was the best they could do under the circumstances. They could have used one bus to take a few people out of New Orleans altogether, or they could use that same bus to make multiple trips to get a much larger number of people from their homes to the nearest emergency shelter.

They chose to help the greater number of people in getting to the emergency shelters. That was the best decision they could have made under the circumstances. And they did have provisions for about 48 hours at those locations. Things didn't start to get desperate at those shelters until after a couple of days.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:18 PM

Perfesser Pink Pants. Here is all the information you need for this class and from your favorite left wing rag to boot:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html

"...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml

"It was at that point, Blanco said, that she realized she had made a critical error.

"I assumed that FEMA had staged their buses in near proximity",....

....Brown said that, on the day before the storm hit, he asked Blanco and Maj. Gen. Bennett Landreneau, head of the state's National Guard, what resources they needed.

"The response was like, 'Let us find out,' and then I never received specific requests for specific things that needed doing," Brown told The New York Times last week.

Blanco said it shouldn't have been up to her to provide a list.

"Specific things, my God," she said. "(If) they didn't know that we were in the middle of search and rescue and needed to evacuate people, then they were not on the ground with us. We needed buses and helicopters...

Two days later (Thursday), President George W. Bush met with Blanco on Air Force One and asked her for control of the troops that were finally pouring into the state. Blanco asked if Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour would be under the same regime. The answer was "No."

Blanco told Bush she'd get back to him in 24 hours. The president didn't wait. That night, the White House faxed a memorandum of understanding for her to sign to cede control of the troops. Her answer was "No."

"If I thought that it was going to bring one more resource to bear, if I thought that he was denying me resource because of it, and I don't think he was, then it might have been something that I would have considered," she said....."


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Subject: Lyr Add: CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (Steve Goodman)
From: GUEST,Wiggy
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM

CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
(Steve Goodman)
As recorded by Steve Goodman on "Steve Goodman" (1971)

1. Ridin' on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central, Monday mornin' rail,
There are fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail.
They're all out on the southbound odyssey,
And the train pulls out o' Kankakee,
Rolls along past houses, farms, and fields,
Passin' towns that have no name,
And freight yards full of old black men,
And the graveyards of rusted automobiles.

Singin': Good mornin', America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
Yes, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans,
And I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

2. And I was dealin' cards with the old men in the club car,
And it's penny a point; there ain't no one keepin' score.
Won't you pass that paper bag that holds that bottle?
You can feel the wheels grumblin' through the floor.
And the sons of Pullman porters, the sons of engineers,
They ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steam;
And mothers with their babes asleep go rockin' to the gentle beat.
The rhythm of the rails is all they dream.

Just a-singin': Good mornin', America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans.
I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

3. Night time on the City of New Orleans,
Changin' cars in Memphis, Tennessee,
It's halfway home; we'll be there by mornin',
Through the Mississippi darkness rollin' to the sea.
And all the towns and people seem to fade into a bad dream.
The old steel rail, it ain't heard the news.
The conductor sings his song again.
It's "Passengers Will Please Refrain."
This train's got the disappearin' railroad blues.

Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans.
I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
Well, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans,
And I'll be gone a long, long time when day is done.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:36 PM

That ghost train makes a pretty good rallying cry for people who care more about partisan politics than they do about people. But that train would not have solved the problem.

And Blanco was right about deciding to not cede control of the Louisiana troops. There was absolutely no reason for Bush to ask her to do so. And if he did withhold support to Louisiana because she did not cede control of the troops, he did it for political reasons, and he is directly responsible for any problems arising from that political ploy.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:47 PM

The train is one small example of the gross ineptitude of the local Government. And how does it relate to partisan politics except that you want to block out any evidence of mistakes by the local governmnet and concentrate on QWB whom you hate for winning the electiuon?

Do you know what Posse Comitatus is?

"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

The Gov has to authorise it or it is uncostitutional for federal troops to enforce the law. Dis she do it? No she kept saying "24 hours" finally before the 24 hours was up Bush faxed something for her to sign to cede control to the feds as per the law requires.

If Bush had done it as you said he should, you would be demandinq that he be sent to jail for two years.

"We need everything you've got" is not authorisation for anything. Brownie even asked personally and specifically what they needed and never got an answer.

Why not drop the mental baggage and make a fresh start?

What one thing would have solved the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 04:55 PM

Yes, I know what Posse Comitatus is. And it had zero application in this situation. Your comment about it is a red herring. The Louisiana National Guard should have been used for law inforcement purposes, and National Guard from other states and other US forces should have been used for non-law enforcement kinds of support.

Bush wants to make Posse Comitatus an issue in this context because he's a big government, more power for the executive branch kind of guy. He wanted to use it to enlarge the government, and his power. And he wanted to further erode states' rights. That's why he's a radical and not a conservative.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

Without using your bias and prejudice explain why and how PC does not apply? Back it up with some facts like the actual text from the law.

All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything.

Does the words "I don't know what day it is" convey a sense of leadership and responsibility?

You assume any charges made of a Democrat are politicaly motivated. If Democrats never make mistakes or do anything wrong, that might apply most of the time but some times they do apply. I think in this case the local government is shifting to blame to the federal government.

You are like some people that yell racist any and everytime a black person is accused of something. Is it possible that some black people do something wrong once in a while? If somebody yells racist every time, how can thay be punished when they do something wrong?

Now you can proceed with your rant on me being a racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM

Posse Comitatus forbids the US (federal) forces for being used in a law enforcement capacity. It wasn't necessary for federal forces to be used in a law enforcement capacity in Louisiana. As I said before, they could, and should have been used in a non-law enforcement capacity while the state forces (Louisiana National Guard) were used in a law enforcement capacity.

This is what the United States Coast Guard site has to say about it. I assume you will accept that they don't have a "bias" in this regard.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html

"'POSSE COMITATUS ACT' (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to 'execute the laws' except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.


Had I been in Governor Blanco's shoes at that particular moment in history, I might not have known what day it was either.

And you are a clown. But not the good kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM

CarolC,

Warning: They are trying to suck you into the details because they have no asnwer to the more fundamental question of why, especially after 9/11, the Bush administartion blinked when the chips were down...

But beyond Bush blinking there is a larger question of whether or not the Bush adminstartion, since it doesn't like outside opinions and loves to operate in secret, had taken steps to "protect American citizens... In demoting and gutting FEMA, it's no surprise that FEMA, even though it wasn't ordered into the fray way too late, came up short on organization, communication and product...I can't help that a 90's FEMA would have been more up to the task...

This is Bush's fault...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:09 PM

All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything.

She did ask. And she worded her request according to how such requests are supposed to be worded. Peace has posted dozens of links to the exact wording of her request in the many other threads on this subject. I'll try to find one of them for you when I get a chance.


It's ok, Bobert. I think people ought to know the extent to which Bush has hoodwinked people who consider themselves to be "conservative" into believing he is one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:49 PM

Okay, CarolC.... You pound 'um low and I'll pound 'um high... 'er vice versa... Anyway, one thing fir sure is that that ain't gonna get away with their usual proclaimations and sandbaggin'...

One thing that i8s becoming increasingly evdient to me, however, and that is that these folks will pull any trick outta the bag... Must be nice to have the corporate big boys throwing tens upon millions into the rightie blogs to give these folks their talking points...

Problem is when the corporations are late to the battle as in this thread cause here we are with well over 200 posts and I have yet to have one trespond directly to the original arguments that I offered in thes thread...

Yeah, I've been called a lot of names whcih is their usaul stall tactics when the corporate apologist haven't gotten the talkin' points to these GUEST's and so they use the name calling and attacks on me as a stall tactic...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM

The New Orleans Commission to seek overhaul..., has called on authorities to close the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet, a shortcut for shipping from the River to the coast which cuts through a corner of the City. This outlet was a major source of the water which flooded the eastern, predominantly Black half of the City (Orleans Parish) when the storm surge roared up from the Gulf Coast.
As a shipping route, the Federal government authorities are responsible for the Outlet.
Local authorities have reached a consensus that it should be closed; opened in the 1960's, for years it has been little used and serves as a conduit for destructive saltwater into freshwater wetlands. Port of New Orleans authorities object to closure, and may be supported by federal authorities. See New York Times, article by Gary Devlin, January 11, 2006, 'New Orleans Commission....'

The Navigation Canal levee failures was responsible for the rest of the water entering the Ninth Ward and adjacent areas of Orleans Parish. This Canal also is the responsibility of the Federal government.

Blame is thrown on City authorities for failure to use buses, but licensed drivers could not be found, and the worst hit areas of Metro could not be reached. The so-called ghost train could have helped a few hundred in its neighborhood, providing that timing was satisfactory, a point in dispute, and it was not accessible to those who needed evacuation most.

People who do not know the situation look on New Orleans as a City under unified control, which it is not. Slightly more than half the citizens of Metro New Orleans live (lived) outside of the City boundaries, and are subject to the governments of adjacent cities, and the authorities of Jefferson and Orleans Parishes.

The closure of the bridge to Gretna, across the River and a city only slightly affected by water, was effected by Gretna and Jefferson Parish authorities. The City of Kenner, between New Orleans and the Airport, refused shelters. The City has no authority in these and other suburban 'cities', although no boundaries are discernable.
The Governor is similarly handicapped because of the deep chasm between the politicians of the northern part of the State and the region around New Orleans. Decisions on major waterways are Federal, and he finds himself largely in an advisory position.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:34 PM

Thank you, Q, for this informative post...

Yeah, the Bush apologists here like neat little pigeon holes in which to shift the blame... Ain't that easy...

Hey, it was the Bush administartion, after 9/11 that said "We are on the case..."

Yeah, Bush loved to pump out his chest and proclaim "My job is to protect the American people"....

Problem is that when we look closely at Bush's actual
performance he was too busy fleecing the middle class by redistributing wealth toward the wealthy and away from the middle
class to be too engaged in really working towrad protecting America from much of anything...

In demoting FEMA, he actually made Americans less safe??? The evidence is in one this one... The only folks who can't accept this are the most "true beleivin' Bush brownshirts"...

And here we are some 5 months later and what we are seeing is no real well defined federal response???? Maybe Bush hasn't been told he is no longer the Governor of Texas but President of the United States...

Or maybe they have but them pretzels jst keep it from sinkin' in...

Or maybe, ahhhh, there's little for which it to sink into???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM

I ain't Q or A or G

If the National Guard from other states goes into New Orleans with all the snipers around, they need to defend themselves. They need to be turned over and put under local control using the correct protocol or they are not able to legaly shoot back or arrest anybody shooting at them. That would be inforcing the law.

And what was wrong with making the request? What was so hard about it? Just some stupid political reason that cost people their lives.

Anybody that can't itemize what they need is not worthy of cooking breakfast much less running a state.

Nobody is refuting the stuff that Marion dug up so it must all be true.

As a sidebar:
"A former political aid to William Jefferson (D-LA), Brett Pfeffer, 37, pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting bribery of a public official and conspiracy. Pfeffer faces 20 years in federal prison for his part in collecting bribes in exchange for Jefferson's help in promoting a pair of business deals in Africa, according to court documents filed Wednesday." http://www.axcessnews.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=7562

Nah. No corruption in Louisianna and definately no corruption by Democrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM

Snipers, Duck?????

Oh, Fox never got around to retracting the "Snipers Lie"...

This explains alot about where you are coming from.

Fox ain't news... It is propaganda...

Snipers, Duck??? You must be one of about 10 people left in the world that doen't know that story was debunked months ago...

I am disappoined in you... I thought you might be a worthy advesary but if yer entire universe is defined by Fox propaganda and lies then I will have to reconsider yer application...

However, I will keep it on file...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geo duck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM

You are suffering from Bobertosis Blindicus Termunus:

"NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire" twice. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/

NPR: "The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings."http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774

La Times: "Snipers fire on rescue efforts, and corpses litter public areas as rage builds among refugees.."
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/890812981.html?dids=890812981:890812981&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+2%2C+2005&author=Ellen+Barry%2C+Scott+Gold+and+Stephen+Braun&pub=Los+Angeles&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=IN+KATRINA%27S+AFTERMATH%3A+CHAOS+AND+SURVIVAL

Are you talking about one incident on a certain bridge?
"But nearly three months later — and after repeated revisions of the official account of the incident and a lowering of the death toll to two — authorities said they were still trying to reconstruct what happened Sept. 4 on the Danziger Bridge. And on the city's east side, where the shootings occurred, two families that suffered casualties are preparing to come forward with stories radically different from those told by police." http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/251105sniperincident.htm

Well how about the others? Does the LA Times, CNN and NPR watch Fox and repeat what they say?

Oh Class, Class, Please be quiet. Perfesser Spongebobert has an announcementto make:
"There were no snipers in New orleans. That was propaganda spread by Fox News. Pay no attention to that man behind the screen. Now let us continue with our anti-Bush agenda"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:52 PM

Problem is that all these links are dated, Duck....

Yeah, at the time, there were all kinmds of reports, 99% now debunked.... You are running old crap here, pal...

Get with the here and now....

Old lies are nuthin more than that: old lies, or mis-whatevers...

Don't matter much... Old (and badly reprorted) ews that ain'ty got any base of reaslity is just another lie in the big scheme of things...

Hey, what if I say that duck is messing with ltttle boys??? And like a few folks say that, yeah, du7ck is messin' with little boys and then it tunrns out that duck ain't messin' with little boys but only a few of the folks who said he/she is retratced their claims??? Then to hald the fols out there you still messin' with little boys....

This is exactly what has happened with the "sniper story"... I have heard doctors on non-Fox networks saying the story was false... Hey, these dotor would have known since they were the folks who were suupposedly being fired on...

This is nuthin' more than racist mythology!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:12 PM

Geoduck, you're just looking for an opportunity to get a few Democrats out of the government. You don't give a poop about actually solving any problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM

The "snipers" were actually people who were shooting guns into the air to get the attention of rescuers so the rescuers would know they were there. They were not shooting at rescue vehicles.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:23 PM

Getting the incomptent people out of the local government would be a start. Now where are your solutions?

If the snipers were debunked, Show me. Otherwise it is your opinion and not based on Fact, and show me where Fox is responsible.

No facts, no credibility. You just like to hear your self say it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM

Getting rid of the local people and not doing anything about the incompetence at the top levels accomplishes nothing.

Here is the Snopes.com debunking of many of the lies and distortions that you have allowed yourself to be duped by...

http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp

I'm still looking for the text of Blanco's request. But here is the president's response to Blanco's request...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding."


Bush clearly states that FEMA has the job of determining what is needed, and then providing it. So if things that are needed are not provided, and since it was FEMA's responsibility to make sure that the "resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency" are provided, then responsibility for any inadequacies is the fault of FEMA.

My suggestions are the same as those of local and national disaster planners all over the US. Take FEMA back out of the DHS. Make the FEMA directorship a cabinet level position, answerable only to the president. Restore the funding that the Bush administration cut from FEMA's budget. Appoint and hire people for FEMA based on qualifications, and eliminate the practice of cronyistic appointments and hiring practices.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM

No creditable news agency found support for the reports of widespread sniping. The Guard killed two snipers, effectively stopping the handful of snipers who tried to take advantage of the situation. Right-wing bigoted bloggers are responsible for most of the garbage reports, and irresponsible repeaters of the garbage (read Geoduck) are not worthy of consideration.

News today: The NO Times-Picayune reports that The U. S. Army Corps of Engineers are going to install temporary gates to close off the canals in NO, and are importing stronger clay from the Gulf to build up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet Canallevees in St. Bernard Parish before the nest hurricane season.
A 219 page report by the Corps of Engineers interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force outlines investigations into widespread levee failures. The federal government may be taking first steps to correct past failures. The American Society of Civil Engineers is acting as a consultant.

Pumps will still be inadequate by mid-summer, but it is hoped that the flood gates will keep surge and waves out of the Canal. We can only hope that another major hurricane doesn't hit the area next hurricane season.

Congress must approve the plans, however, before work can start by the Corps. The three gates could cost $105 million, peanuts compared to the $2 trillion plus wasted in the stupid efforts in Iraq.

See www.nola.com, articles from the Times-Picayune, Nov. 11, 2006.

The Interagency Performance Evaluation Team is conducting 'dozens' of evaluations of the failures of levees and levee walls. We can only hope that some action results from their efforts.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM

Excuses, ctirticism, finger pointing and nothing constructive.

The only specific, credible sniper debunking I can find is about an incident one bridge. The rest are general "mainstream Media lied" with no specifics. Nothing indicating Fox was the culprit.

Bobert You are so unconvcining I wonder how you even convince yourself.

Just a bunch of knowitalls with an agenda.

Will the people at ground zero get enough signatures for recall?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM

Here's an article that debunks many of the reports of snipers shooting at rescue personnel, and most of the rest of them have yet to be substantiated...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12801034.htm

I got the information in my previous post from seeing interviews of people who were there at the time, stranded on rooftops waiting to be rescued. They said they did not witness anyone shooting at rescue personnel, but they did see people shooting in the air in order to alert rescue personnel to their presence and their need to be rescued.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:40 AM

Politics are heating up. Republicans have launched a petition to recall Governor Blanco. Recall petitions must be signed by at least one-third of the State's 2.8 million voters in 180 days in order to force an election, an outcome which is highly unlikely.

The move will further polarize an already strongly divided electorate.
The Baton Rouge Advocate:
www.2theadvocate.com/news/2180962.html


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:43 AM

Nothing constructive? See my 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM post, Gooeyduck. It's far more constructive than anything you've posted so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM

Carol C, yes, your 12:19 post is informative and it is unfortunate you and bobert fail to realize the main thrust of it. ".....FEMA, to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the effect of alleviating hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local populatiom......."

The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you?

I will give you credit, Carol C, for your research efforts unlike that other fellow who simply pooh-poohs actual facts offered by others.

My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land."
I remember seeing pictures of hundreds, after Katrina, sitting in their parking areas under water.

Oh, one other thing, it was mentioned that hundreds od mobile homes, RVs, etc. are sitting empty around New Orleans because the city government can't decide where to place them. A'NIMBY" scenario I guess. Much was made of them being delivered without keys which is easily solved by a 5# hammer but no one is commenting on the thousands of displaced people living hundreds or thousands of miles away who can not return due to the lack of decision making by local government.

Ah yes, the inability to make decisions within that area continue, four months after the diaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:43 AM

Everything I have stated related to FEMA's inaction and snipers has been backed up my CarolC's research so go ahead and attack me if you don't like my sty7le but behind it you'll find my arguments based on facts...

Is folks like the Duck who, even after being presented with evidence that the sniping didn't happen, who continue to tell the story as if it did...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM

No attack from me, bobert. Paranoia on your part?
What I can ascertain is you make a bunch of statements early on, pronounce them as gospel, and then continue to ignore the ongoing comments of others.

Any comments on the hundreds of buses left sitting proir to Katrina hitting land or the mobile homes sitting unoccupied while local government continues to demonstrate its' inability for decision making?

Or, are some of the acusations made four months ago about the NO/LA governments' lack of performance perhaps being proven out by the ongoing indecisiveness? Hmmnn?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM

My My that is constructive. Reverse the things demanded by the Democrats. Now what should be done in New Orleans?

Perfesser squarebob. CC says there were a "handful of snipers" Does that make you a liar?

She blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused.

CC also seems to be blaming the absence of flood gates on the stingy administration when local "Activists" like you and her down there sucessfully blocked building floodgates that were supposed to be built in the 60's for peanuts compared to what they will cost now. Is that true?

Why is the electorate down there strongly divided? What are they divided about?

Why do things keep disapearing off of the louisiana.gov website like their plans for a disaster and Blanco's supposed official request for a state of emergency while Fed government docs are still there?

C'mon now, we need an ejucation.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM

Times-Picayune's articles make clear that throughout much of the 1990s, officials in Louisiana couldn't come up with state money needed to match federal funds. The resignation of Rep. Bob Livingston in December 1998 didn't help. (Livingston was chairman of the House Appropriations Committee; federal funding for flood control projects was one of his pet projects.) Nor did environmental laws, such as the Migratory Bird Act of 1918. (Construction on a hurricane protection levee in St. Charles Parish was halted for months because a great egret nesting area sat in the levee's path.)


"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM

Snopes is not a "blog", goeyduck. It's a debunking site. That's wehre people use actual documentation and quotes from live people to debunk the BS that gets spread around in blogs and email chains. And its a website devoted to debunking urban legends, which is what that garbage about people shooting at rescur workers really is... an urban legend.

I'll respond to more later when I have more time.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM

The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you?

No, I think that's quite a fallacious assumption. Moving temporary housing ahead of the storm obviously doesn't make sense. But it's a red herring to suggest that FEMA did the best job it could to get supplies in. Walmart was able to get supplies in before FEMA did. And in many instances, when people did get supplies in, FEMA turned them away.

I have seen the numbers on this, but it's going to take some effort to track them down. I don't have time right now, so I'll work on that later. But from the numbers I saw, there weren't anywhere near enough school buses to make much of a difference in the numbers of people left behind.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM

My second paragraph in my last post was in response to this:

My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:11 PM

Carol C, this post of mine is probably not too important but it demonstrates my tenacity for accuracy. There are three groups of defiinitions for "blog". Allow me to quote one of the most common ones; * noun: a shared on-line journal......

I have never heard the term "debunking site". Nor is it listed as such in any Dictionary or obtainable thru a "Google" search. You can, however, locate sites that deal with "Urban Legends". It is my opinion that Hurricane Katrina and its' subsequent aftermath does fall under that catagory.

Snopes has close to 7000 registered members which to equates to a sharing process. If one would contemplate this site as a separate entity, it would suggest that Snopes is not much different than this thread. Which is a collection of people, most often reading what they want to read, and using that information to try to convince others of its' authenticity


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:21 PM

Okay, one thing at a time is fair. I really would like to see the numbers on the buses. The aerial views of bus parking showed hundres, still sitting there but now submerged. You did give a response but not an answer.

And I was not being facetious, not getting in ahead of the storm has been a point directed against the Feds. (read GWB) Someone will still have to show me where FEMA turned away supplies from, say, Mississippi.

And, Walmart had stores in the storm stricken area.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM

A blog is a weblog. An online diary. Snopes is not a blog.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM

GUEST,G, you should read the other threads on Katrina. There were supplies turned away in Mississippi.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM

Gung-ho Bush on tour and giving speeches on how wonderful things will be after Miss-NO rebuilt. He doesn't mention that Congress must vote the cash. Until they do, his campaign promises are bushwah. His talk of 'big help' coming in just sounds like Halliburton et al. will get more billions.

Whether this will happen or the money bills will get drowned in congressional committee piss is not yet known.

Meanwhile Guest G et al. continues to mouth the fiction that the people of New Orleans are crooks, gamblers, shooters liars and thieves.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM

Thank you, Q and CarolC....

I'm in the middle of a large project... Actually several and don't have much pudder time these days for Googling up stuff but with these GUEST's it's almost a full time jib searching out the facts to combat their mythogies...

Ummmmmm, now I guess it was the Duck who asked what I would do now and that's a fair question and I will respond with a 10 point program in a little while...

Gotta got do some sanding, apply some more mud, etc...

Professor Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM

Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise...

http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a blog to me


Suspect Device Blog

The Rectal Foreign Body in the X-Ray of Louisiana Politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM

What's your point, Gooeyduck? I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts. I just said that Snopes is not a blog.

From Gooeyduck...

She (CarolC) blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused.

Please show me where I have done any of these things. Yes, I agree. You are confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM

Okay, her we go...

1. Seein' as that problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it, Bush and his gang are outta the deal. Yes, he needs to remove his asdminstartion from the process of the plan to rebuild the Gulf Coast... (More on this later...)

2. The Army of Corps of Engineers, before the first thing is built inside the worst areas needs to rebuild the leves to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane... Not not a 4! (Actually, I have recently heard that by the time Katrina hit N.O. it was a Cat 3??? And di this musch damage???) So, rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5...

3. Turn the Justice Departemnt loose on the insurance industry which has taken a run-out-the-clock attitude on paying claims... Yeah, haul a couple COE's into jailand that outta get them playing nice.

4. Provide national "gap insurance" to any "home owner" who lived in their own home that covers the difference between wheat the weiel insurance companies will pay to rebuild and what it will take to rebuild.

5. BUT, and this is the all important "but", before folks start rebuilding, hold a redevelopement/redesign charette... Now, I ain't talking about a few old folks from the hood witha room full of slick talking planners... That ain't a charette, its an ambush... And it's going to take some national public serice announcements to let folks who either have relocated or can't make it back to appoint proxies to represent their interests...

6. Offer a major prize for a national competition of various engineering schools to find a way to build entire blocks on barges that can't be seen in the case of flooding where entire blockes, trees, shrubs and Rover's dog house i tha back yard can raise with flood level... (Yeah, I know this seems to contradict my #1 but, hey, it's worth a looksie just in case the Army Corps screws up...

7. Look toward public/private partnerships in ares were a complete redevelopemt might be possible. If these areas are to be rebuilt with vision there will be these pockets that weill open up and so be prepared to negotiate with the private sector for thier redevelopment... Lotta creative ways to "share" sapce.

8. Offer tax incentives (local, state and federal) for investement in the rebuilding of centers that bring back the cultureal aspects of the area. And on the fedral level, like community block grant programs to assit in amtching funds for such rebuilding.

9. Hold as a goal a mix racial mix in these ares that is no greater than 10% different than before Katrina.

10. Lastly, and this is perahps the hardest and it is the area of finacing. Given that this area is so important to the domestic oil industry, that rebuilding will be partially paid for by the oil industry. Hey, they beed folks there to work so they can throw a few peas in the pot. These two states don't have extra revenues so reality being just that, I would propose that tyhr Bush administration roll back it's tax cuts incrimentally and that a portion go toward rebuilding the Gulf Coast... Thrwo in the public/private partnerships in many areas and the bills get paid.

There, that's Bobert's "Ten Point Plan"

Unlike the Bushites here, I ain't afraid to throw out some ideas... Sure, I expect them to start taking shots. Fine, shoot away but not if you don't have the balls to put forth yer "10 point" plans...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM

Go take care of your drywall Bobert. Ever try Durabond?

Now I want to know about the snipers. I see that there were widespread reports of snipers and the word spread like wildfire. It caused several rescues and supply deliveries to be halted. Blaming it on one news source is not logical because they are all out there trying to out scoop the others.

One doctor said he heard shots and heard the bullets hitting nearby. If I was there that would convince me and have me running for cover.

Nobody can confirm anything and it has been attributed to the "Fog of War" or the equivalent of the fog of a disaster.

However if federal troops are to be put on the ground they need to be authorized to defend themselves with force and make arrests if necessary snipers or not. That is not legal under Posse Comitatus unless it is requested with the proper protocall.

I would not send soldiers anywhere where they cannot defend themselves legally.

I have never said everybody in New Orleans is a crook but I am under the impression that the government and the police force is corrupt to a certain extent. Not as much as a third world country but certainly more that most large southern cities like Atlanta or Mobile.

If I am wrong, lay it on me but it should come from sombody who really knows and not some carpetbagger that has never been to NO or experienced a hurricane.

Now about the 1960's flood gates. The GAO has said they would have done more harm than good. I find that hard to believe but I guess thay know more than I do. However Blanko was in the Netherlands studying their levee and floodgate system, I suppose that if floodgates are proposed now, they will be termed an absolute necessity instead of harmful. They could hire contractors from the Netherlands and they would probably do a good job. They built the Palm Islands off of Dubai and they are working on World Island and a third Palm Island bigger than the other two put together. It is the most amazing thing I have ever seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM

Danged good idea, O-Guy.... If there's any folks in the world that understand flood plain it the Dutch... Get a few Dutch engineerrs to the charette...

As fir the snipers, O-Guy... Seems the more we look at the reports the less likely it is that anyone was shooting a doctors... Yeah, I was in Missisisppi during Katrina doing some recording at a buds house and that's all he listened to was Fox Mythology Network and they repeated ther snipping story over and over lie it was the ***only*** story associated with Katrina????

No wonder, fir those who only listen to FOx, whcih is the most partisan news ( if you can call it taht) station in American that one might come out still elieving that folks were shooting at doctors...

And please, CarolC has provides ample links, don't do the juvinilistic "prove it" bullsh*t on me...

Heck, I'm still hjaving problems with the Philosophy 201 "prove you exist" question to be bothered with stuff that CarolC has allready taken care of here...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:04 AM

Bush boasted today that $85 billion has been approved for the region but only $25 billion had been spent. Beyond saying the federal government "had a great role to play," he didn't say much, certainly nothing of substance. Just who approved the $85 billion?- or has it been approved? Is he just woofin'?
And just what has been approved for the Corps of Engineers to build the levees, walls and flood gates? Certainly we know of no unified plans, let alone a timetable.
Wonder what the waste factor is on the money spent so far, and how much went to Halliburton and subsidiaries.

If the 'billions' are there, and if the levees and flood controls were built with the 'billions' to level 5, money would start to flow from the private sector.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:16 AM

Q, I meant no such thing concerning the citizens of New Orleans.
(with the possible of exception of some government official and their cronies) Now, where did I say that?

Carol C, I will go with the Dictionary definition of 'blog'

And, as normal, questions going unanswered and BS being introduced.

No comments on the 100s of mobile homes and RVs standing empty due to the local government continuing their practice of indecisiveness??????

The same people that ignore this are the ones who are complaining because some hotels want to return to a sense of normalcy and need their rooms back for tourists.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:24 AM

By the way Caro, your assuming how things were around NO - "roads impassable" - are just that, assumptions. The wind damage in NO was not the problem, flooding was. I think 'A' was there as I have an aquaintance who was there at the same time and he says wind damage, i.e., trees down, etc., was minimal.

To the east was the wind damage, well, not damage really, he said "stuff" just disappeared. (Gulport, Bay St. Louis, etc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM

No, they're not assumptions. I am repeating what I read from people who were there. Especially people who were responsible for rescue and other emergency purposes.

Flooding has a tendency to make roads impassible (for road type vehicles), don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM

You're not a big fan of thinking things through, are you GUEST,G?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

Here are some definitions for the word "blog" (much more detailed definitions than what can be found in a dictionary)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog

"A blog is a website in which journal entries are posted on a regular basis and displayed in reverse chronological order. The term blog is a shortened form of weblog or web log."

http://www.marketingterms.com/dictionary/blog/

"A frequent, chronological publication of personal thoughts and Web links."

http://www.blogscanada.ca/BlogDefinition.html

"So what is a weblog, anyway? Generally speaking, it's an online journal comprised of links and postings in reverse chronological order, meaning the most recent posting appears at the top of the page. As Meg Hourihan, co-founder of Pyra Labs, the blogging software company acquired by Google in February 2003, has noted, weblogs are �post-centric� -- the posting is the key unit -- rather than �page-centric,� as with more traditional websites. Weblogs typically link to other websites and blog postings, and many allow readers to comment on the original post, thereby allowing audience discussions."

http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214616,00.html

"On the Internet, a blog (short for weblog) is a personal journal that is frequently updated and intended for general public consumption."


The necessary requirements to make a website a "blog" are that it be,

A. A journal

Snopes is not a journal.

B. Chronological (reverse)

Snopes in not chronoligical in any way.

C. Has multiple entries per page

Snopes has one entry per page. And because it's not a journal, it doesn't follow a journal format. It is an informational site that has a separate page for each diffferent "urban myth" that it is either debunking or validating.


Personally, I don't have a problem with blogs (Gooeyduck's bizarre accusations notwithstanding). I tend to avoid using them as my only documentation or support for an argument, but I will sometimes use them together with other sources if I think it is reasonable to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM

Okay Carol, okay - call it what you want and I will go with my concept.

Now that is settled, your comment of me "not thinking things through"
is a puzzlement. You say you are repeating things that "I have read from people who were there." Well good for you - since I don't trust most of the sensationalized reports in the media, I only repeat what I have personally been TOLD by people 'who were there'. Best I can do.

And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected. Opening a road after a tornado, which I have helped with, is not that big of a deal. Tractors, trucks and cables work very well and very quickly. However, around the outskirts of NO, this was not the case. There was not the problem of "impassable roads" or the kid with the school bus would not have made it out of town.

With this, you go with your opinions and what you read, I will stick with my accounts from the people who were there. Enough, okay?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM

And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected

The Super Dome is hardly the only area that needed assistance. Most roads in New Orleans were impassible. Some were not.

There is no excuse for FEMA's criminal negligence of the people in the Super Dome.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM

That last should read "criminal neglect" rather than "negligence".


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM

Number of buses...

"According to a September 5, 2003, article in the Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700."

Public transit buses were being used to evacuate people. But as I said before, they were being used in the manner that would help the most people under the circumstances... taking them to the nearest emergency shelter.

The school buses people saw in neat rows under water in pictures could very well have been the 70 buses that were broken down and not operational.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120009

That article debunks quite a few other falsehoods that are being spread here in this thread. For instance, the stupid accusation that Blanco should have, but didn't ask for specific assistance...

"According to the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should immediately begin emergency operations, even in the absence of a clear assessment of the situation. Because a "detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states that "response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment.""

On the subject of prepositioning assets...

"In fact, a Navy ship -- the USS Bataan -- was "preposition[ed]" off the Louisiana coast ready to aid Katrina victims but was deprived of needed guidance by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), as the Chicago Tribune reported on September 4.

Moreover, the Bush administration did not send a hospital ship to New Orleans from Baltimore until four days after the levees were breached. Kelly wrote that the Army Corps of Engineers had by September 10 "begun pumping water out of New Orleans." But James Lee Witt, FEMA director in the Clinton administration, said that both efforts should have happened much sooner: "[I]n the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby.""

National Guard...

"In fact...according to Department of Defense officials, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour had requested additional Guard personnel before the storm hit. And, as the Associated Press reported on September 3, Blanco accepted an offer for additional troops from New Mexico the day before the hurricane hit, but that help was delayed by paperwork needed from Washington."

According to the NRP (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the local government officials did everything they were responsible for under the plan.

FEMA before Bush (from the perspective of Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts Jr., whose house was damaged by Hurricane Andrew)...

"The day after I crawled from the wreckage of my home in 1992, the Federal Emergency Management Agency was there with water. Shortly thereafter came low-interest loans and other forms of help."

And after Bush...

"By contrast, a woman who saw me conducting interviews in Bogalusa, La., seven days after Katrina struck marched up and demanded to know if I was, finally, the man from FEMA because her house was split in two and she and her husband and children and grandchildren were sleeping on the porch."

_______________

From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi (originally taken from an article in the CNN website, for which the link is now defunct)...

"FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said.

'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said.

Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added.

He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday.

'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'"

www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories"


We've already covered all of this ground many times in previous threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM

I have a few questions for CC:

1 How many hurricanes made landfall in the US in 2005?

2 How many in 1992?

3 How many hit after Bush and before DHS?

4 What did victims of the hurricanes that hit afer Bush and before DHS have to say about DHS? How many Pros vs how many cons?

You may have to alter your anti-bush template a little if you want to put things into perspective and find the real truth.

After we have exhausted ourselves arguing about that and each of us declaring victory we can move on the the Bush is responsible because of global warming argument.

Here are the top 10 hurricanes in US history before Katrina:

1. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1900
2. FLORIDA 1928
3. FLORIDA KEYS 1935
4. HURRICANE AUDREY 1957
5. SOUTHEAST U.S. 1926
6. LOUISIANA 1909
7. ATLANTIC-GULF 1919
8. LOUISIANA 1915
9. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1915
10. NEW ENGLAND 1938

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/hurricanes.topten/intro.html

Except for 1957 they were all early 1900s

Where was global warming and GWB back then?

Could it be that these things run in cycles?

Whittle a cyles hole in your template and things come to light like this:
http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=286
"The hurricane activity of the next 20 years should resemble the period that began in the late 1920s and lasted through the 1940s. The increase is due to higher salinity content in the Atlantic Ocean, which alters its currents and increases average ocean temperatures, fueling more storms. Gray emphasizes that this is a cyclical trend and has nothing to do with global warming(CNN, April 22, 2000)...
.. University of New Mexico scientist Louis Scuderi, studying tree ring data in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado, has identified a 72 year drought cycle in the region according to an AP article of April 29th. The last such drought occurred in the 1950s, leading Scuderi to believe that another is imminent in the 2020s."

This dates back to pre-Bush before so it couldn't be biased against Bush.

Now do you want to move on to the Kyoto argument?

Why should the US be bound by the Kyoto protocol if China is not?

What other countries have and haven't signed?

Who consumes all this energy in the US anyway? Is it the people? If so why can't they consume less and solve the problem instead of beating the government over the head about their own activites?

Witness Barabra Striesand, environmental Activist who travels in private jets and stretch limos ansd is so concerned about air polution and green house gasses.

Where do you want to begin?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM

Here's the text of the letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush. I don't know why it is no longer available in the Louisiana government's website, but it might be because that site is not designed to handle the amount of traffic it gets as a result of keeping that page active...


August 27, 2005

The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM

Lots of subjects for lots of threads but most have little to do with the subject at hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM

Re: your questions, Old Guy, you tell us. Are you so lazy that everyone else has to do all of your work for you?

I don't have an anti-Bush bias. I have an anti stupidity bias. Let's get FEMA back the way it was prior to its absorption into the DHS. Don't let your anti-Democrat bias prevent you from supporting changes that will save lives and prevent tragedies like the aftermath of Katrina from happening in the future.

And if your reference to global warming was directed at me, please show me where I have said anything at all about global warming and Hurricane Katrina.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM

Yeah, Q, yer right....

Here we are a month after I argued the point that Bush was reponsible to driopping the ball and messing up the sytem so bad that it couldn't ptrotect the American people and I haven't seen the first real rebuttal to the "FACTS" I included in that arguement...

Of sure, I've been called a lotta stuff... People have siad that I won't answer their qustions but that's not my job...

This thread is about George Bush and he failed the US people and I have yet to read any Bushite here present a thought out response to my original charge which I sould think mean...

... they don't have one (period)...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM

I thought I would give CC the opportunity to present her unassailable facts fo us to marvel at first. I though an expert like CC would have the answers at hand but evidently those answers would embarras her so she declines to answer.

In other words another person that won't answer questions.

Furthermore when you go to those Lousianna government sites you get a 404 document not found error which means it has been deleted.

Also a person that contradicts herself:

"I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts."

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM

Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise...

http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, great, O-Guy....

Now how about going back to the very first post in this thread and assemble a rebuttal...

Bush was the one to give the orders and he flinched...

Bush was responsible for backing up his post 9/11 rhetoric about protecting the American people and he failed...

These, based on well over 200 posts without a rebuttal to be the strongest evidence that the "gate" belongs behind Katrina...

Hey, when any one of the Bushites will mount a rebuttal then you can ask questions of me... Until then, yer just blowing smoke...

Debating 101... Rebuttal, then assert an opposing view... UIf you can't rebutt my arguments then you have no right to change the direction of the debate... Any high school debating coach can tell ye that.... And, O-Guy, don't get too smug in dealing with CarolC... You make her mad and she'll take you to the cleaners...

Maybe you won't know just what a butt whup she put on yer ol' butt but everyone else will... Better just stick to yer talking points, keep on punching but when you go declaring some kind of victory, this ol' gal gonna hurt you bad... She is easilly the best debater in Mudville... Plus she's mighty purdy which has nuthin' to do with anything...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:55 PM

Old Guy... time to get new reading glasses. Either that or get your nurse to read the thread to you.

The sentence as it is written in my post reads, "I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts".

All anyone who wants to verify that has to do is read the thread.

And I have already answered most, if not all of the questions that have been put to me, and provided documentation for all of my assertions. You, on the other hand have done nothing but obfuscate and lie. You're not answering your questions because you don't know the answers. But go ahead and do some research and post your results. And then I will follow along and take them apart.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM

(thnx bobert)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM

See what I mean, O-Guy???

Play nicer with CarolC an' maybe you won't need that nurse...

B....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 03:33 AM

I apologise. I have been going too fast and putting wrong things together.

However I do wonder why the fact that GWB did not want to have a DHS and then he did not want FEMA to be part of it is glossed over here.

He made concessions to the opposing party in an effort to keep the peace and now it is being used against him.

Could FEMA have done a better job if it was left alone?

Nobody seems to want to answer questions so I will ask them one at a time.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:43 AM

Well, fir one, it would have been a cabinet level position, Old Guy, which carries a lot more weight than and agency... Second, when it was demoted, it lost alot of it's budget...

I don't see this as the DEM's fault but, hey, inspite of their minority status, they are not completely blameless either... The fights the DEM's took up in the establishement of the DHS were related more to labor issues and less about organization... They picked the wrong fight, perhaps, but weren't the one's who had much control of how the organizational chart would end end up looing like...

But based on FEMA's track record in the 90's I think it's safe to say that it wasn't as capable when Katrina hit...

Added to that, as I have pointed out, Bush and the White House were AWOL in the early going and were late to the battle...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 AM

Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG').

Have you given any consideration as to the possibility of someone else knowing a few facts, particulary when they have talked with people who were on scene within 24 hours of Katrina?

Reading media reports that we know are "built up" (a reporting term) can be similar to the the 3 blind men offering their explanations as to what an Elephant is like.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM

John Kerry campain ad:
"John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM

OG, that won't make any difference because it is still all GWBs fault
even though GW could see that FEMA would be buried under a ton of red tape. Facts that are contrary to blaming GW are invalid to those with mindsets.
Nice try, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:15 AM

I don't remember John Kerry recommending that FEMA be gutted... Or even Joe Lieberman... Or Nacy Pelosi... Or Hillary Clinton... Or Edward Kennedy....

Hey, they weren't the ones admitting that the dot hadn't been connected and then promising to do a better job of "protecting the American people" yet seems that most of the annonomous GUEST's here would lay the blame for the poor federal response on anyone other than Bush and his folks???

Hmmmmmmmm???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM

Bobert:

Perspective means that you stand back and look at the whole picture instead of zeroing in on one small item and magnifying it untill it fills your whole field of vision.

Now stand back and view the whole picture. How many hurricanes hit the US compared to previous years? What were their intensity? How did Fema perform in those hurricanes. Look at every factor and make comparisons to previous related incidents and similar incidents elsewhere.

You lack this perspective. You go to extremes.

Here is an example of your kind of extremisim:
Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?!
http://www.dickgregory.com/katrina_chronicle.html
Pirate News reported that during Gulf War #1, Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire ordered US troops to blow up oil wells in Kuwait and Iraq and blame Iraq, in order to drive up oil prices. Bush, UN Inc and Clinton-Blythe-Rockefeller sanctions and bombings on Iraq have closed sales of 5-cents/gallon Iraq gasoline to USA. Gasoline prices rose 75-cents/gallon in one day in USA after Katrina. John Lee of PirateNews.org reported that Tennessee soldiers from GW#1 confessed they were ordered to stop firefighters from extinguishing the oil well fires. Ports near New Orleans import not only petroleum, but since NAFTA exported factories and farming to foreign nations, USA is dependant upon foreign food to survive, as pointed out by disgruntled mayor of New Orleans, er, "New Venice".... Why did Bush Gang sabotage New Orleans - was it incompetence, corruption or PREMEDITATED TREASON?!

EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE FOUND ON FAILED LEVEE DEBRIS!
Ruptured New Orleans Levee had help failing
   By: Hal Turner                                  September 9, 2005   3:36 PM EDT
http://www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html
NOTE: This story has been UPDATED as of Saturday, September 10, 2005 @ 11:40 PM EDT The updated info is incorporated into the story and appears in bold type

SECOND UPDATE: Monday Sept. 12, 2005 @ 8:23 AM ABC News Video with Ear Witness to Explosions and states emphatically "They blew this levee" Click the link below the story


New Orleans, LA -- Divers inspecting the ruptured levee walls surrounding New Orleans found something that piqued their interest: Burn marks on underwater debris chunks from the broken levee wall!

One diver, a member of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, saw the burn marks and knew immediately what caused them. When he surfaced and showed the evidence to his superior, the on-site Coordinator for FEMA stepped-in and said "You are not here to conduct an investigation as to why this rupture occurred, but only to determine how best to close it." The FEMA coordinator then threw the evidence back into the water and said "You will tell no one about this."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 11:27 AM

Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG').

I don't. When people offer opinions that are in opposition to mine, I often don't say anything at all. And I often tell them that they are entitled to their opinions. And if I think they are wrong, I try to show through presentation of documentation that they are wrong. I can provide hundreds of examples of this.

When people obfuscate and lie, I accuse them of obfuscating and lying. One example of this is taking a part of one of my statements out of context in order to make it look like I am saying the complete opposite of what I really said.

In your case, I didn't suggest you don't think things through because your opinion was in opposition to mine. I accused you of that because you made an outrageously ridiculous statement. You suggested that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:41 PM

What about these trailers Guest rants about?
The Times-Picayune reports that a home owner threatens to drag the trailer FEMA dumped on his property into the street. Why?
Two months after a federal contractor dumped the trailer on his front lawn, no power has been supplied. If he could get power, he could spend more time repairing his house.
1. A FEMA contractor must erect a temporary utility pole, wire it to the trailer and to neighborhood power lines. Can take months.
2. The utility (Entergy) is bankrupt. It can't hire more employees or get more equipment.
3. Even if the damaged house has been re-connected to power, wiring can't be extended to the trailer without the FEMA pole and establishing a new contract with Entergy. A permit is needed, and fees are $45 plus a deposit to the Parish ($75 in Tammany Parish). Customers of Ciesco pay $150 deposit in the Parish. (Fees depend upon Parish (NOT CITY) schedules). A slumgullion of a mixture of State, Parish and City regulations and safety requirements that must be satisfied.
Hook-ups must be pre-inspected or the customer is liable to fines and power cut-off.
Permits are backed-up because of the lack of inspectors.
4. Failure of FEMA to give instructions and information on a multi-step process to homeowners.
http://www/nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/1137222192280310.xml
Sat. Jan. 14, 2006.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM

Well which is more passable. Flooded roads or roads with debris in them?

Is the depth of the water or the size and quantity of the debris a factor?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:55 PM

Flooded or debris clogged... both impassible for vehicular traffic. The local National Guard had equipment that would have made it possible to get through some of the flooding for rescuing people, but most of it was in Iraq, and not available locally when it was needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:51 PM

FEMA throws roadblocks at Charity and University Hospitals.
Louisiana State University, administrators of the two large hospitals, estimate that repairs to Charity would cost $258 million.

FEMA has offered the public hospital system run by LSU only $23 million for damage to the basement and the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems of Big Charity.

LSU has not accepted, and asked FEMA to explain how it planned to do an overall assessment. At this point FEMA has no timeline for completing its overal assessment.
The Times-Picayune, Melinda Deslatte, Associated Press. Article reproduced in Nola.com.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM

I will take the 28 million, no questions asked.

I appologise for suggesting that flooded roads are more passable than roads with debris in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:44 AM

Click HERE to read a compelling, well written article from the United Kingdom's Observer-Guardian about New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina, and post-Katrina "recovery".

Here's two excerpts from that article:

"Hunters Field is a sacred spot. A scrubby tract in the shadow of the Interstate, it's the home of the Yellow Pocahontas, one of the most revered Mardi Gras Indian tribes, and a site of Super Sunday, perhaps the greatest day in the black calendar, when the tribes gather in full costume to pow-wow, make music, and party as only New Orleanians can. This is the heart of the Seventh Ward, rich in history and black culture. Before Katrina, I could look from here down St Bernard Avenue with its hole-in-the-wall bars, barbershops, used-clothing stores and social clubs, and it seemed no power on earth could snuff out the vitality here. Now, nothing stirs. The shops and bars are all boarded up, there is no power and no one is allowed to live in the houses. At the height of the flooding, the waters rose eight-foot deep and caused massive damage. Most homes that weren't destroyed are infected by mould. Yet, experts agree, the area can be salvaged. It would take a lot of money and commitment, but the Seventh Ward, unlike the Lower Ninth, isn't gone."...


…the sense of loss is overwhelming. One morning, I ask B to retrace his Katrina journey with me. The apartment complex where he started is under guard, but everything else - the ravaged wasteground by the overpass, littered with fast-food containers and water bottles; the shattered glass in the forecourt of Skate Country; the felled and twisted neon sign outside Capt Sal's; the whole of Chef Highway, mile on mile of desolation - has been left to its own devices. 'I guess the clean-up crews must be on their break,' says B. We drive along the interstate, taking the same route as the trucks that delivered him and his group to the Convention Centre. None of the areas below shows any sign of life till we reach the CBD (Central Business District), which is almost back to normal. The centre has been scrubbed clean, inside and out, but remains closed to visitors. B finds the spot where he squatted, those dreadful days and nights. He relives it - the bodies blocking the bathroom door, the snatched children, the old women dying in their faeces, the National Guardsmen laughing among themselves, the heat, the stench, the helplessness - and he cries."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:56 AM

That article was in the Sunday January 15, 2006
The Observer and is itself an excerpt from Nik Cohn' book 'Triksta'

Here's another longish excerpt from that article, but IMO, the entire article is well worth reading and passing on to others:

"The French Quarter isn't feeling much pain. At the height of the storm, it shipped less than a foot of water. A couple of bars on Bourbon Street never closed. All that's missing are the tourists. There's bitter irony in this, because tourism is the primary reason that New Orleans sold its soul. Before the 1980s, visitors were expected to adjust to native customs. Then the local economy ran aground. The oil boom of the Seventies collapsed, and big business, driven off by Louisiana's punitive taxes, left town. Even the port, the city's primary source of income, was diminished. That left the tourist dollar. The French Quarter, previously ramshackle, was transformed into a creole Disneyland. Shopping malls, convention centres, casinos and theme parks sprang up, enriching a power elite. Old white money and new black money thrived. The populace at large was left to rot.

In recent decades, the mayors and the majority of the city council have been African-Americans, which merely proves that black rip-off artists can be as voracious as white. Pre-Katrina, tourism generated $1 million a day but not a dime ever seemed to reach the streets. And this was deliberate. Tourists need service - menial labour to clean their tables and make their beds, hose away their vomit on Bourbon Street. To provide it, the city adopted a policy of malign neglect. The old black neighbourhoods, rich in history and culture, were allowed to sink into ruin and the school system to founder. Without education, there was no way out. Many who refused to submit to grunt work in the Quarter became criminals, most often drug dealers. The public-housing projects that ringed the city's centre became armed camps, where killing was seen as proof of manhood. By 2000, New Orleans was America's murder capital, eight times as deadly as New York.

For tourists, this was an invisible world. If they ventured beyond the Quarter at all, they took the streetcar past the mansions on St Charles Avenue or joined a walking tour of the Garden District, and few troubled to inquire what paid for such luxury. The only white faces seen in the projects belonged to social workers and drug-trawlers. The city was more deeply segregated than at any time in its history. Almost every project family lost someone to violence or jail. A culture of hopelessness took hold.

These were the people herded into the Superdome and Convention Centre, the people on rooftops and overpasses, waiting to be rescued, and the people branded as looters, even though most took only what they needed to stay alive. If one small good has come out of Katrina it is that they're invisible no longer. That doesn't mean they now have a voice or will be treated better. In the Quarter, they already seem forgotten. About half the hotels and restaurants have reopened, catering to an army of relief workers. Many have the same habits as the tourists they've replaced. As a race, they're gigantic - huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree-trunks in floppy shorts - and they drive SUVs to match. New Orleans, shadowy and mysterious, birthplace of jazz, has been taken over by behemoths, blasting country and western on their car stereos."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:57 PM

The Seventh Ward is a large and diverse area, starting on the River at a point on the triangle formed by Esplanade Avenue (and then the line turning north and extended along Bayou St. John Ave.) and Elysian Fields Avenue, and extending north past Dillard University all the way to the Lake. In this area of New Orleans, Neighborhoods, not the Ward, determine the demographics.
The writer of the material copied in the British papers seems to be bigoted in his attitude towards Whites, and only marginally familiar with the 'seventh ward'.

The Seventh Ward area on the River, Marigny Neighborhood, is 72% White.
To the north is the typical "Seventh Ward Neighborhood," extending north to Agriculture Ave.; 94% Black, 1/3 of houses owner-occupied. This is part of the area of which Azizi talks. (For comparison, houses in the Ninth Ward are 57% owner-occupied).
To the north and west is the Fairgrounds Neighborhood, 70% Black, about 44% of houses owner-occupied.
The St. Bernard Neighborhood is just north of Fairgrounds, 98% Black. Only 17% of housing is owner-occupied. Interstate 610 (State 90) had already damaged this area.
To the east is the Dillard Neighborhood, 88% Black, but 60% of housing owner-ocupied.
Filmore Neighborhood, to the North, is more mixed, 57% Black, 86% owner-occupied.
Topping off the Seventh Ward, Lake Terrace and Oaks Neighborhoods, to the North bordering Lake Ponchartrain, are 72% white and 95% owner-occupied.

A lot of data here, but important; areas with high owner-occupancy are more likely to stay in the hands of the people of the 'hood.'

Now the JOKERS, which at the moment happens to be FEMA, and Federal rebuilding of the walls, levees and other protection. Residents are in limbo until at least late Spring.
New Federal flood maps are scheduled to be released later this year. These maps will tell residents whether- or how high- to rebuild their damaged homes. The Commission land use panel wants preliminary maps as soon as possible, but FEMA prefers to wait until the maps are finalized (some prelim. info. may be released in April-May).

If owners rebuild now, all they have as a guide are the current required elevations, which may be substantially changed when new maps are released. Federally guaranteed Insurance will depend on these maps.
If owners choose to rebuild following current requirements, and another flood comes, FEMA could rule them 'victims of repetitive flooding', and force them to raise their homes.
When will the models for levees, walls, pumps and drainage canals be complete? Not until well into the next hurricane season.
And then there will be the arguments and negociations and politics and---

What will owners of rental property do? Will they sell or rebuild and repair? Neighborhoods with low ownership may have a hard fight ahead.
Some of this information here: www.nola.com, The Times-Picayune, article on new flood maps and regulations, specifically http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/113730870342020.xml

Demographics and Neighborhood data, start with: Seventh Ward Neighborhood


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM

What concerns me now is that these charettes are being conducted by folks who do not represent the areas that were destroyed... I heard a "planner" on the Diane Rheme Shoow the other day and he was talking about things which are all underway...

Then Diane brought in an attorney from the 7th Ward who made this point and it seems to be an important point and most certainly has racial implications as well...

I hope that the "planners" won't get too far ahead of the process, which based on my experience with various community projects ovetr the last 6 ot 7 years seems to be hard to prevent... Show a planner a piece of ground anf the wheels start spinnin'....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM

Chocolate City:

Here is how the responsible and capable Government on New Orleans conducts itself:

Storms Payback From God, Nagin Says
Mayor Faults War, Blacks' Infighting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/16/AR2006011600925.html
By Brett Martel
Associated Press
Tuesday, January 17, 2006; Page A04

NEW ORLEANS, Jan. 16 -- Mayor C. Ray Nagin suggested Monday that hurricanes Katrina and Rita and other storms were a sign that "God is mad at America" -- and at black communities, too, for tearing themselves apart with violence and political infighting.

"Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country," Nagin said as he and other city leaders marked Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
        
"Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

Nagin, who is African American, also promised that New Orleans will be a "chocolate" city again. Many of the city's black neighborhoods were heavily damaged by Katrina.

"It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans -- the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority-African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans."

Nagin described an imaginary conversation with King, the late civil rights leader.

"I said, 'What is it going to take for us to move on and live your dream and make it a reality?' He said, 'I don't think that we need to pay attention any more as much about other folks and racists on the other side.' He said, 'The thing we need to focus on as a community -- black folks I'm talking about -- is ourselves.' "

Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?"

The reply, Nagin said, was "We as a people need to fix ourselves first."

Nagin also said King would have been dismayed with black leaders who are "most of the time tearing each other down publicly for the delight of many."

A day earlier, gunfire erupted at a parade to commemorate King's birthday. Three people were wounded in the daylight shooting amid a throng of mostly black spectators, but police said there were no immediate suspects or witnesses.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM

Good stuff, Q and Geoduck. I wonder if the writer from the Obsrver was even there. His article states he visited New Orleans "six months after Katrina". You do the math - and my sources from there say the same.

Bodies all over? Go back and verify how many fatalities in the Dome.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM

New Orleans a chocolate city- it has been one for a long time, and it will continue to be one. The city (pre-Hurricane) was 2/3 Black and will continue to be. The interactions among members of the large Black population insure a vital culture.

The planners are putting forth ideas ranging from practical to cloud nine, but it will take time to vet them, and they must be integrated with federally mandated regulations and money available.

Much cleanup must still be done; contractors and their workers have taken care of about 30% so far. One may quarrel with 'where done' and 'amount done' but so many decisions are involved, that it is hard to evaluate progress.

People on the Gulf would agree more of those "gigantic- huge pink slabs of beef, bellies, legs like tree trunks...behemoths" are needed to speed cleanup and demolition- contractors with FEMA jobs can't find enough qualified workers. That writer with the Observer whatever doesn't understand contract labor- these workers must have a large vehicle to transport their goods to a job. I had an in-law in the business who would operate a crane one contract, an earth mover on a dam the next and so on. Much of the time he not only had an SUV or heavy-duty pick-up, but also a truck and trailer since the job often was far from housing. It's not a life I would want although the money is good. (I wonder if that writer is a Hobbit).


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM

Ahhhh, yeah, the reference to N.O. as a "chocolate city" sho nuff got my wife, the P-Vine's, attention but I unnerstood what he was sayin'''.. Lotta of folks 'round the country ain't all that hooked up into black culture...

But I knew when I heard it that I was gonna have some explaineratin' to do to the wife but she still ain't got a clue...

Oh well???

Maybe that's a part of the problem in rebuildin' N.O....

Folks gonna need a vocabulary book in order to hold these charettes...

One that goes both ways....

"Charettes"?????

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 09:55 PM

Hey Hey! I think one of Bobert's eyes in open in one corner just a tilge and some light is sneaking in.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 05:13 PM

Some nonsense on CNN last night, saying NO isn't chocolate any more, because it has gone from 2/3 Black before the hurricanes to only 40% now. The figure is meaningless since those who left include many who are waiting till the Federal FEMA rules are. Those who owned homes will return if they can repair and rebuild. Many won't know what they can do until the FEMA maps are out in early summer.

In the NY Times today I see that the City has agreed to notify homeowners before they demolish any houses.
For 123 worst case houses in the lower Ninth, 7-10 days notice will be given, and the owner can appeal before the limit is up. For 1900 houses less damaged but 'in danger of collapse,' 30 days notice, with right of appeal will be given. A Mr. Meffert, the City official in charge of demolition, says the program can now go ahead, saying "we have to rebuild for everyone" (whatever that means). In all, about 2500 houses are on the demolish list.

Bobert, I agree local NO language use can be misunderstood outside of the area. I remember several years ago a musician working in the Quarter telling me he lived in chocolate city because rents were too high in the Quarter and Marigny. The mayor sometimes sounds like a preacher, but I heard a lot of that talk when I was down there, from both Black and White. and no one paid it any nevermind. His vote base has shifted dramatically. It was the Uptown vote that elected the mayor, now he must hope for strong Black support in the next election. He will be running against several declared White candidates.
An editorial in the Times-Picayune stated "Mayor Nagin has a good heart, but --- he heightened tensions between neighbors."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM

I see there is a thread by Poppa amd Mamma Gator all about their plans for Mardi Gras.

I searched for comments about Bush, Brownie, Blanco Nagin, FEMA, DHA, Katrina and there is no mention of the disaster or bickering about who's fault it is.

Basically they say Laissez les bon temps roulet.

Is the whole controversy is a media event?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM

Incidently, Michael Brown today said that all the problems were his fault???

Yeah, okay, Mike...

Nice try,,, Yer still off the Bush Christmas card list...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:32 PM

Score one fer Bobert, Brownie fesses up.
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/59312.htm
January 20, 2006 -- MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif. � Former FEMA Director Michael Brown has placed blame on everyone from New Orleans' mayor to Louisiana's governor for the chaos following Hurricane Katrina. Now, he's including himself.

Brown admits he fell short of conveying the magnitude of the disaster and was slow in calling for help.

"I should have demanded the military sooner," Brown, former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told a gathering of broadcast and National Weather Service meteorologists Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM

Nah, Old Guy....

Brownie, after telling Congress under oath that he warned Bush that a Cat 4 or Cat 5 was about to hit the Gulf Coast on the Satudurday before Katrina is now playing, "Oh, dumb me????"...

Yeah, this is all just another Karl Rove trick to try to keep his boy afloat... Yeah, get Brownie to take tha fall and it's one less scandal that can taske Bush out....

Too bad the Dems is up to their ears in whatever 'er they would be killin' Bush on this one....

Makes ya wonder what the Dems is hidin'...Must be big 'er they would be on this one like ugly on an ape...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

Pre-Katrina Warnings Not Heeded

Senators Slam Bush Administration for Not Heeding Warnings in Advance of Hurricane Katrina


By LARA JAKES JORDAN Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON Jan 24, 2006 — Senators lambasted the Bush administration on Tuesday for failing to heed devastating predictions from a hurricane preparedness test that began a year before Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast.

The top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee also accused the White House of trying to block or delay the panel's inquiry into the government's sluggish response to Katrina.

The preparedness exercise that began in July 2004, dubbed Hurricane Pam, warned that a Category 3 storm would overwhelm the New Orleans area with flood waters, killing up to 60,000 people and destroying buildings and roads. State and federal officials were concluding Pam's findings when Katrina, an actual Category 4 storm, roared ashore on Aug. 29.

"As a dry run for the real thing, Pam should have been a wake-up call that could not be ignored," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, chair of the Senate committee's examination of Pam's findings at a Tuesday hearing. "Instead, it is apparent that a more appropriate name for Pam should have been 'Cassandra' the mythical prophet who warned of disasters but whom no one believed." ...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

Did I reasd that right, Amos???

"Sen. Suusan Collins, R-Maine..."

Hmmmmm??? "R"???


Like I said, the Repubs must have pics of Ted with a hooker (or worse since a pic of Ted with ahooker wouldn't really shock anyone too much...)??? They got somethin' on the Dems 'er the Dems would be killing Bush on his and his adminstrations complete failures to come thru with 3 eyars of promises to be prepared to "protect the American people"....

And the beat goes on...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:35 PM

Oh well, firget the Dems...

Just turned in the corporate owned news channel and it even reporting that the Bush administartion wasn't prepared... Something that I have been stating for a couple two or threee months here and been called a bunch of names, had folks ask for sources (which I have provided) and then told that in their opionion thew lack of response was the sates and local governemnt fault... This even after I pointed out that the National Response Plan made a natural disaster the size of Katrina's the feds problem...

Yeah, the "gate" certainly belongs behind Katrina...

Bush earned it an now he's gonna have to wear it... Oh, for the good ol' days when it was nuthin' much more than a guy not wanting hios wife and daughter to know he was gettin' a little on the side... Seems like the innocent 50's in retrospect...

(But, Bobert, Karl Rove says that the Repubs have "a post 9/11 mentality...)

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention that Osaom ordered up Hurricane Katrina....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

Hmmmmmm, now that a lot of the stuff I have pointed out has made it into the main stream media it's no wonder that the usual cast isn't here with their yeah, but's, attacks and outright Bushite propaganda talking points...

..."yeah now you don't talk so loud
and, yeah, you don't talk so proud...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 11:29 PM

New York Times today says "White House declines to provide Storm papers" (on Katrina). Nor will senior White House officials be allowed to give testimony before Congressional Committees. See article by Eric Lipton, Jan. 25, 2006.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM

Yeah, but won't stop" Bush the Proclaimer" from pumping out his chest saying that 'he's deicated to rebuilding New Orleans...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM

New Orleans Times-Picayune today- FEMA promised $400 million to hospitals, and said the money was sent, but so far not one penny received. Keith Darcé, business writer, Fri., Jan. 27, 2006.
FEMA had assured members of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the U. S. House Committee on Energy and Commerce that the money was in place.
The Mesical Director for the State Department of Health and Hospitals has seen no funds, and continues to fill out more forms.

The hospitals have gone into debt; among the expenses was $50 milloin for a military style tent hospital housed in and around a convention center that was needed to care for patients. Operating losses at West Jefferson Medical Center have exceeded $28 million.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM

'Hurricane Pam' exercise offered glimpse of Katrina misery
Friday, 6 p.m.

By John McQuaid
Staff writer
Times Picayune
The document's cover page reads: "Southeast Louisiana Catastrophic Hurricane Functional Plan."

"It maps out detailed instructions for emergency managers responding to a deadly hurricane that floods all of New Orleans, killing more than 60,000: how to rescue and evacuate hundreds of thousands of people stranded on rooftops or trapped by rising waters; how to quickly mobilize federal, state and local agencies; how to drain water laced with toxic sludge and clean up a ruined city.

But officials never put this plan into action. It wasn't an official disaster playbook but an experiment, the product of a weeklong simulation done last year in which emergency managers confronted a fictional Hurricane Pam.

The halting emergency response to Hurricane Katrina's aftermath left thousands of people stranded in New Orleans and adjacent areas for days without food and water, with many vulnerable to roaming gangs of outlaws. Flaws in communications and coordination between government agencies at the federal, state and local levels apparently slowed the response, though exactly what went wrong has yet to be determined.

The 109-page report on Pam, dated Sept. 20, 2004, and provided by a participant in the exercise, addresses many of these issues.

The simulation imagined a grim scenario even worse than Katrina: A slow-moving Category 3 hurricane strikes the New Orleans area, overtopping levees and causing 10-12 feet of flooding in New Orleans and the entire east bank metro area.

Katrina's flood waters spared most of Jefferson Parish and parts of New Orleans.

In the simulation, 61,290 people die, including 24,250 in New Orleans. An additional 384,000 are injured or fall ill.

The exercise grew out of an initiative at the Federal Emergency Management Agency started early in the Bush presidency to develop plans for the worst possible disasters that could hit the United States..."

And ignored by state, city and local officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM

No, Old Guy, this is where you go drastically wrong!!!

Yes, for you Bush apologists it would be real convient to leave the impression that this was failure of state, loacl and federal governemnt. Porblem is, is that your propositiion is terribly flawed and fir a very good reason... You guys don't cop to nuthin"...

First of all, the National Response Plan took into account situations where state and local governments were overwhelmed... I think it is safe to say that this was the case here..

Secondly, It is not even a given that the sate and locals weren't performing well... Governor Blanko has turned over her documents on what she did and Bush has turned over cherry picked documents ane refusded to hand over any more...

And lastly, Bush, inspite of an urgent call from fall-guy, Micheal Brown two days before Katrina hit, did nothjing but continue his vaction and even then went to Californis to do some comapaigning...

These are the facts...

Now to WITT: Karl "Big Fat Liar" says that Republicans are the ones with the post 9/11 vision????

Hahahahaha......

"cept it ain't funny... The only thing they seem to care about is raiding the treasury for themselves and their fat cat CEO buds...

No one is safer since 9/11... Incidents of terrorism have incresed every year since 9/11...

You won't admit it, Old Guy, but you know it is true... How anyone can defend Bush anymore is beyond me unless yer getting rich off the treasury rip-off... whcih must be the case...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM

What makes you think I am defending Bush?

I am saying the responsibility belongs to state and local governments to be ready for a disaster. Were they? Did they do anything sugested in the report?

You are the defending the corrupt and irresponsible "chocolate City" government.

You keep mumbling about corporate owned news channels and corporate owned newspapers.

Which ones are not owned by a corporation?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM

In the case of New Orleans, the Federal Government was the main author of the disaster.
Responsibility for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal is Federal. This is the canal that caused major flooding in the Ninth Ward and Jefferson and St. Bernard Parishes. It is part of the Navigable Waters of the United States. For years, there have been calls for upgrades. Rather than do that, Congress authorized a new lock to be built at a cost of 748 million, and a new bridge over the canal (separate project; more millions), although traffic was decreasing. NO money was voted for flood control.
The lock is (was?) a porkbarrel project of the Corps of Engineers and the Louisiana federal congressional delegation and their congressional buddies. These congressmen, of course, bear partial responsibility, but there were no objections from the Executive. City and State government officials had no effective say in the matter.
The responsibility of the Federal government for navigable waterways is spelled out under Title 33, Navigation and Navigable Waters. Three Federal agencies are involved:
Department of Transportation
Army Corps of Engineers
Coast Guard, Dept. of Homeland Security.
Also involved is Port of New Orleans (don't know who is ultimately responsible here, but I am sure the City has little or no power here).

Finally, there is NO way for the local and State governments to be ready for a disaster of that magnitude in the short time involved, and where they have little effective input on protective measures for the federally-controlled canal whose levees and walls were overtopped.

Now the Corps of Engineers is trying to restore Level 3 protection by mid-summer, and Level 5 protection is only on paper.

All of this has been posted before (thread 84801 and others).


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM

Yeah, Old Guy, uou gloss over Bush's National Response Plan like ir didn't exist...

It outlines the federal response in case of a natural disaster (as well as terrorists attack)when local or state governemtns are overwhelmed...

Google up "National Response Plan" fir a little insight into one of the main points I have been making in this thread that is now over 300 posts without one single word of rebuttal as to the federal responsibilities were/are....

(Normal, Bobert, but at least Old Guy hasn't gotten around to blaming it on Bill Clinton...)

Opps, sorry, Old Guy, but if you're thinking of blaming the Bush administartions failures in their poor response to Katrina on Bill Clinton, that dog won't hunt...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:34 PM

Sounds like another I Hate Bush thread to me.

The state and local government's failures are being glossed over


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

Research into more than ten years of reporting on hurricane and flood damage mitigation efforts in and around New Orleans indicates that local and state officials did not use federal money that was available for levee improvements or coastal reinforcement and often did not secure local matching funds that would have generated even more federal funding.

In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes.

"In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects."

The levee board promised Times-Picayune readers that the "few manageable gaps" in the walls protecting the city from Mother Nature's waters "will be sealed within four years (1999) completing our circle of protection."

But less than a year later, that same levee board was denied the authority to refinance its debts. Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle "repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends money and ignores public bid laws," according to the Times-Picayune. The newspaper quoted Kyle as saying that the board was near bankruptcy and should not be allowed to refinance any bonds, or issue new ones, until it submitted an acceptable plan to achieve solvency.

Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project.

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center.

The following year, the state legislature did appropriate $49.5 million for levee improvements, but the proposed spending had to be allocated by the State Bond Commission before the projects could receive financing. The commission placed the levee improvements in the "Priority 5" category, among the projects least likely to receive full or immediate funding.

The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls.

No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched.

"The problem is money is real tight in Baton Rouge right now," state Sen. Francis Heitmeier (D-Algiers) told the Times-Picayune. "We have to do with what we can get."

Louisiana Commissioner of Administration Mark Drennen told local officials that, if they reduced their requests for state funding in other, less critical areas, they would have a better chance of getting the requested funds for levee improvements. The newspaper reported that in 2000 and 2001, "the Bond Commission has approved or pledged millions of dollars for projects in Jefferson Parish, including construction of the Tournament Players Club golf course near Westwego, the relocation of Hickory Avenue in Jefferson (Parish) and historic district development in Westwego."

There is no record of such discretionary funding requests being reduced or withdrawn, but in October of 2003, nearby St. Charles Parish did receive a federal grant for $475,000 to build bike paths on top of its levees.

Earlier this year, the levee board did complete a $2.5 million restoration project. After months of delays, officials rolled away fencing to reveal the restored 1962 Mardi Gras fountain in a four-acre park featuring a new 600-foot plaza between famous Lakeshore Drive and the sea wall.

Financing for the renovation came from a property tax passed by New Orleans voters in 1983. The tax, which generates more than $6 million each year for the levee board, is dedicated to capital projects. Levee board officials defended more than $600,000 in cost overruns for the Mardi Gras fountain project, according to the Times-Picayune, "citing their responsibility to maintain the vast green space they have jurisdiction over along the lakefront."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:53 PM

October 18, 2005
Inept New Orleans Officials

Could it be that corrupt and inept city officials contributed greatly to all the deaths and injuries caused by Hurricane Katrina? According to a former president of the New Orleans City Council and former Orleans Levee Board member that is exactly the case.

Peggy Wilson, a New Orleans city councilwoman from 1986 through 1998 and later a governor-appointed Orleans Levee Board member, has given a candid account this week on what the mainstream media has failed to say regarding the big storm's devastating effect.

Wilson said that the levee board was well-funded but the money was not spent on levee maintenance and improvements like it should have. Rather, the board focused on widening bridges and making other accommodations for riverboat casinos, which not surprisingly, are a major source of the levee board's funding.

She also said that some board members, including the chairman of the board, had personal relationships with companies that were contracted to perform unnecessary services for the board.

As for the most inept official, Wilson believes that title belongs to New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, who she says is not corrupt but rather "he didn't know anything about city government or how to run a city….Its just the most unbelievable ineptness."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:43 PM

Red herring, GUEST...

First, as Joe Offer has asked over and over, please don't post long cut 'n pastes... The rule is if it won't fir on screen then it's too long...

Plus, unlike Arne, I'm not going to get into them long, well corporate financed blogs that 99% oif the time are 100% behind the Bushites... Must be nice to be that well financed that you can afford to pay folks to take sh*t and spin it into Long "Tropic of Cancer" length reems of Shinola....

So you are going to place Bush's entire defense in the hands a of Peggy Wilson?

Yes ____

No _____

Ahhhh, just who controls the levees and who is responsible for them?

N.O. ________

Don Duck ______

The Federal Governemnt _______

Like I said, red herring....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM

Well, well, well...

Like the tides coming in this one is slowly but surely making it's way to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave with now even the corporate media reporting that Chertoff was AWOL....

Hmmmmmm, who could be next in the tide's way???

Plus, nice to keep this little scandal refreshed now and then as the noose tightens...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Yes, the tide is rolling but it is going to batter the State and local officials.

26 Jan 5:33, OG said "Ignored by State, city and local officials"

Boberts' reply said "Failure of State, city and Federal officials" at 6:30.

Bobert, I don't believe you really read the other posts here or you are totally misinformed. However, I am going to give you the 'benefit of the the doubt' and think you are playing Devils advocate. If that is not the case, then you have to be Twins 'cause one person couldn't be this F'in stupid.

I just wonder what your position will be when the dust has settled and the real truth is out.

Oh, one more thing, can you not visualize the the National Response plan is designed to provide asistance once an area decides it is overwhelmed which usually requires the disaster to hit first?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM

Bobert:
Joe has a 30" screen now so you can't use that excuse to keep the real facts from getting to the readers of your thread.

You have to refresh your own threads. Nobody else will. What happened to your medigate thread?

Who was responsible for evacuating N.O. before Katrina hit?

Cut and pastes that Bobert does not want you to see:

Questions have also been raised, for example, over the failure of New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin to order the city's fleet of school buses into action to evacuate residents, many of whom live below the poverty line and had no means of fleeing independently, before the storm hit.

Then there is the mystery as to why Kathleen Blanco, the Democrat Louisiana governor who attempted to shift the spotlight from herself to the White House by threatening to punch the President, refused to send in National Guard troops in any significant number to assist the post-flood rescue and evacuation effort. Even now, she still refuses to sign them into federal control so that their contribution can be better co-ordinated.


According to Senator Landrieu, Mayor Nagin's evacuation was the best evacuation I've seen, I've never seen one any better.
It was the Bush administration's fault that hundreds of city school buses weren't dispatched to evacuate the hurricane-battered residents of New Orleans before floods swamped the city.

Asked on why New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin failed to follow the city's evacuation plan and press the buses into service, Landrieu blamed Bush administration cuts in mass transit funding.

Landrieu: "In other words, this administration did not believe in mass transit. They won't even get people to work on a sunny day, let alone getting them out."

Saying she was unwilling to criticize Louisiana officials, the Louisiana Democrat insisted that Mayor Nagin's evacuation efforts had been a smashing success.

Because the mayor evacuated the city, we had the best evacuation of any evacuation I've seen. I'm 50 years old; I've never seen one any better

When reminded that were a hundred thousand people left in the city, Landrieu once again blamed the White House by saying They did [have] a hundred thousand people left in the city because this federal government won't support cities to evacuate people, whether it's from earthquakes, tornadoes, or hurricanes. And that's the truth.


On August 26 Mayor Nagin advised New Orleanians to keep a close eye on the storm and prepare for evacuation. He made various statements encouraging people to leave without officially calling for an evacuation throughout the 27th, and issued a voluntary evacuation request late in the day. He stressed the potential danger posed by Katrina by saying "This is not a test. This is the real deal." He was hesitant to order a mandatory evacuation because of concerns about the city's liability for closing hotels and other businesses.

The actual plan was here but it has been deleted for some "strange" reason.

Elections for Mayor and City Council members had been schedualed for November 2005, but these were postponed due to the devastation after Katrina and the many New Orleanians still living out of the city. New elections are schedualed for April 22, 2006.


A native of a working-class section of the city's Algiers neighborhood, Mr. Nagin, 49 years old, was a cable-television executive before his election. Although a lifelong Democrat, he was friendly to Republicans, contributing to Mr. Bush's 2000 bid and endorsing Ms. Blanco's Republican opponent in 2003.
After Katrina, Mr. Nagin turned to a cadre of other political newcomers and business leaders who had backed his campaign. Pivotal among them was Joseph Canizaro, a commercial real-estate developer who is personally close to the president and top political adviser Karl Rove.
At that point, he says, he decided he shouldn't rely on the governor or other state officials. "It suddenly dawned on me: What game should I be playing? How do I get this done?"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM

Oops. Here is the link to the Missing plan


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM

Nah, G-zer... I think it's you who ain't doing the readeratin' here...

If you go back to the very first post in this thread I made reference to the National Response Plan... This plan, written by the Bush folks incidently, looked at scenerios where state and local resources/gevernemnts were overwhelmed by a disaster and how the federal government would act in that case...

Whether or jot the state and locals were overwhelmed with Katrina can and will continue to be debated... But that is not the issue... The issue is that, given that Michale Brown spoke directly with Bush on two full days before Katrina warning Bush of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 most likely coming thru N.O., given the National Repsonse Plan, this should have set some actions in motion...

But as we now learn, this didn't occur for another 3 days... These three days may end up being like the 18 minutes of missing Nixon tapes but I don't think so... There's way to much information out there, including notes from the White House in regards to Governor Blanko's communictations which the White House has cherry picked thru and sitting on the remainder (think Cheney's notes on the "Energy Policy" here...)...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM

Well first the state and local governments have to be overwhelmed.

I suppose if they sit on ther asses and screw everything up from the getgo, they are overwhelmed in your opinion.

How about that big cut and paste of 28 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM containingg facts you don't want anybody to see?

It tells how state and local officials pissed away money for the levees on other stuff and they could not match federal money for the levees. It is gross incompetence in financial matters. I guess they were "overwhelmed".

In your opinion incompetent = overwhelmed which means the Feds have to do everything for them like taking care of a retard.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM

Okay, please tell us, sccording to the NPR, what the Feds are supposed to do "2 days" before Katrina made landfall. Two or three examples will suffuce and be sure not to include the semi loads of equipment enroute to the area prior to landfall.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

First, Old Guy, younare more intellegent than yeer last post.. Maybe someone is using her handle... What, are you going to tell me that N.O.'s should have a had a plan ready to impliment if the largest natural disaster of our life time hit them??? Hey, lets get real here... Where do you live??? Nearest large city please will do... And what plan is in place in that city in the case of a disaster???

Well, it don't atter much what city it is... The answer is "none"!!!
Not even Washington, D.C. has such a plan... Cities are not finacially able to have this kind of stuff all worked out... And, evn if they did have the dough to handle a disaster, they are still very much dependent on neighbors to cooperate...

I thought that was one of the lessons learned by 9/11... Well. you'd sure think so by the number of times that Bush pumped out his cheat and said, "My job is to protect the American people!!!"

No, G-zer, rather than ask me just stay tuned as the rest of the story will unfold... Just yesterday, the Govewrnment Accountability Office (GAO) released a scathing report that said:

1. the administration did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency..

2, disregarded early warnings of of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and South Lousinana

3. and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the August 29th storm...

Hmmmmmm?

And Representtaive Thomas Davis (R-Va.) stated, "The Director... of the National Hurricane Center said this was the big one... but when it happened, Bush is in Texas, Card is in Maine, the vice-prsident is fly-fishing. I mean, who's in charge here?" And this from a Repub???

As fir **exactly** what the feds were supposed to be doing, G-zer, stay tuned as the Nastional Response Plan get's it 15 minutes of fame...

But so far, there is nothing that I originally posted here that has been proven to be incorrect... Might of facy, as time goes on, more and more of what I argued is falling into place...

Oh, BTW, how many references to Katrina did Bush make in his State of Union Address???

Hmmmmmmmmm?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM

Bobert: Are we on the same planet?

About the Office of Emergency Preparedness
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=9
Mission statement:
The [New Orleans]Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans.

Our primary responsibility is to advise the Mayor, the City Council and Chief Administrative Officer regarding emergency preparedness activities and operations.We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to city-wide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan.

All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office.

Our authority is defined by the Louisiana Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, Chapter 6 Section 709, Paragraph B:

"Each Parish shall maintain a disaster agency which, except as otherwise provided under this act, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish."



Hurricane Evacuation Guidelines

The Greater New Orleans Area is faced with a difficult challenge during an evacuation due to the city's large population and limited road system which is susceptible to flooding.

That is why the Office of Emergency Preparedness, urges people to "Plan to Be Safe" by voluntarily evacuating "high risk areas" before a recommended evacuation. See the high risk areas.

If you plan to evacuate, leave as early as possible, before hurricane gale force winds, heavy rainfall and storm surge cause road closings.

There are three phases of evacuation: precautionary, recommended, and mandatory. An evacuation notice will be issued when a hurricane is forecast to present a danger to the Greater New Orleans Area. When this notice to evacuate will be issued, depends on the landfall probability in this area and also on the speed and severity of the storm.

    * State Evacuation Maps
    * General Evacuation Guidelines


Here is the big one too large to cut and paste and Bobert will be too lazy to read:

STATE OF LOUISIANA
Office of Homeland Security and
Emergency Preparedness
EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN
APRIL 2005
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/STATE%20OF%20LOUISIANA%20EOP%202005.doc

..............1.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will develop plans, procedures, arrangements and agreements to ensure that the activities required by ESF 3 can be carried out effectively and efficiently.

2.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will initiate contacts with other state agencies and organizations, in particular, the Department of Natural Resources and the United States Department of Agriculture � Natural Resources Conservation Service (USDA � NRCS) to ensure cooperation in emergencies and disasters.

3.        The ESF 3 will work with emergency organizations such as LOHSEP and regional emergency task forces to ensure that the state�s infrastructure is adequate to support traffic flows in large scale evacuations. Particular attention will be paid to hurricane evacuation routes in the southern part of the state. Levees and flood control structures will be designed, built and maintained to contain potential large scale floods.

C.        RESPONSE:

1.        When an emergency is imminent, the ESF 3 Coordinator will assess the potential impact of the threat on the state�s infrastructure and work with other authorities to ensure that any necessary immediate repairs or arrangements for critical structures and facilities are initiated.

2.        If a hurricane emergency develops, the ESF 3 Coordinator will work with all state and local authorities to manage evacuation of people in the threatened area(s).

3.        As the emergency progresses, the Coordinator will monitor the status of the infrastructure and effect emergency repairs where needed and feasible.

4.        The ESF 3 Coordinator will monitor the status of debris on critical evacuation routes and initiate emergency debris clearance and repairs to save lives where needed and feasible............


The particular state plan for the NO area is a separate document which has mysteriously "disappeared" from the state website so we can't see if it was followed or not:

SUPPLEMENTS PUBISHED SEAPARATLY:

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1b.pdf                                                                                        
1A - Southeast Louisiana Hurricane and Evacuation Plan

So to be blunt Bobert, you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you say there was no plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:05 AM

Washington -- Responsibility for the government's bungled response to Hurricane Katrina extends widely but begins at the top of the Bush administration, which failed before the storm to name a White House, homeland security or other senior aide in command of the looming disaster, congressional investigators reported Wednesday.

Four years after the Sept. 11, attacks, administration officials did not establish a clear chain of command for the domestic emergency; disregarded early warnings of a Category 5 hurricane inundating New Orleans and southeast Louisiana; and did not ensure that cities and states had adequate plans and training before the Aug. 29 storm, according to the Government Accountability Office.

"A single individual -- directly responsible and accountable to the president of the United States -- should be dedicated to act as the central focal point to lead and coordinate the overall federal response," GAO chief David Walker said, summarizing preliminary findings from 30 pending Katrina-related studies.

The blistering report represents the first official findings on the government's performance in Katrina. It is the first of a series of reviews in coming weeks that are expected to fix blame and refocus scrutiny on the administration's handling of the nation's costliest natural disaster, which killed 1,307 people and caused more than $150 billion in damage along the Gulf Coast. ...

(SFO Chroniclle)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM

The plan is laughable. It was never more than a piece of paper. No 'Office of emergency preparedness' was ever set up and no federal coordinators were on site.
In order to implement the plan, federal, state, parish and city governments would have to agree to change and coordinate regulations in order to act in concert. The City and parishes could not afford to spend the sums necessary. Perhaps more important, the political rift between south Louisiana and the rest of the state would have to be resolved before actions could be contemplated and money appropriated. Like most cities, New Orleans is always playing catch-up, since taxes barely cover expenses.
The plan completely ignores federal responsibility under Title 33 for protection along the waterways.

Even if this cloud 8 1/2 plan had been well along, there is no way a city- any major city- could be evacuated in the lead time given.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM

No, Old Guy, apparently we still ain't on the same page and they way you keep gloassing over the rerality of Katrina like it was a debate over how many angels can stand on the end of a pin, it is unlikely that you can be brou7ght around to reality...

Most cities have Offices of Emergency Preparednesses... Big deal... Like I said, they are for managable disasteres. Katrina wasn't a managable disaster at the local level and based on ther damage to Mississippi it wasn't even managable on the state level..

Maybe you remembwer after 9/11 the issue of "first reponders" and the mayors and governors pleaded with Bush to put his money where hios mouth was in funding them... Yeah, Bush didn't mind pumping out his chest and boasting about "protecting Americans" but he wrote checks to local and states like man with no arms...

Thus, Katrina..

And thus, the buck is finding it's way where it belongs...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:01 AM

Don't know if this is repeating anything from above (forgive me if I haven't got the time to read this mighty tome) but on the BBC last night there was a programme on New Orleans and Katrina. Some of the points raised on the telly by the talking heads were:

The building of the levees didn't take into account the soil, which is a soft clay likened to playdough, and as a result the levees were a lot weaker than they were planned to be.

Due to man's intervention the coastal marshes and islands that have attenuated the power of hurricans in the past have been lost making the city even more vulnerable.

The Corps of Engineers don't have the mandate of the government (Senate or Congress - I can't remember) or the money to rebuild the levees to anything other than what was there before Katrina (i.e. the same strength as those that failed).

That large areas of the city that were destroyed shouldn't be rebuilt, especially as the hurricanes are currently getting bigger, stronger and more frequent.

The more reclamation that gets done the more vunlerable the city becomes (less protection from the weather and lowering the ground level even more due to the pumping out of the ground water behind the levees).





It was horrifying to see just how devastated New Orleans is now the flood waters have been pumped out.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM

Guest Dazbo- mostly right.

1. It seems that soil tests were inadequate. They are now bringing in better quality clay from the Gulf and tests are being carried out.

2. Yes, the marshlands are decreasing at an alarming rate. Not only does this threaten the City, but valuable breeding grounds for aquatic and terrestrial life are lost.

3. The Corps of Engineers are responsible for building and maintaining the levees along navigable waterways, but- U. S. Congress must authorize the funds. And not only must Congress authorize the funds, but there are several committees and agencies that oversee the spending. These agencies can hold up expenditures almost indefinitely.

4. Various plans call for the restoration of parts of St. Bernard and Jefferson Parishes to marshland. A report due in April (?) will have maps incorporating recommendations. How these plans will be implemented, revised or ignored will be the subject of long debate.

5. Not only pumping of the water from underground, but pumping of oil caused lowering of ground level. Moreover, natural compaction of the soft, clayey sediments over time is a large contributor.

6. "New Orleans" is a metropolitan ares extending over three parishes. The greatest damage was in the Ninth and parts of the Seventh wards in the core area, and in St. Bernard Parish. These were the areas most affected by the failure of levees and walls along navagable waterways.

Estimates vary on how much housing was destroyed (cannot be reclaimed); perhaps 60% in the Ninth ward, 30-40% in the southern part of the Seventh Ward. Until a complete survey, house-by-house, is compiled, these figures will continue to vary. Areas of the City to the west and also south (Gretna, etc.) of the river sustained some wind damage, but most housing was not seriously affected.

Until the government assessment maps are completed (late Spring?), an accurate numerical assesment of the damage cannot be made.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM

Refresh:

"Oh Please Don't let poor Nelly die"

The "Nellie" in this case being the only stated example of a thread where Bobert proclaimed that he has done his homework, but as yet has singularly failed to prove it. As such this thread should in all sincerity be preserved for posterity.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM

Tsk, tsk, T. There's plenty of material for your needs here. Resorting to slurs on Bobert, well, it's just beneath you.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:20 PM

Two words, Bobert;   Cat Scan.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:25 PM

Thanks fir the usual attacks, mild as they are, G-zer and T-zer... Must mean that I still got both of you wondering how to defend Bush and hios administartion against the arguments I put forth, ohhhh, well over three hundred posts ago... To which, BTW, I have yet to get an honest rebuttal... Lots of attacks, however, which is good... No, it's real, real good 'cause it means that you guys don't have any defense...

And given the recent GAO reports, I don't blame you all for sand-baggin'... I would too if I was trying to defend Bush and his boys on this one... Yeah, I would be doing Mohammed Ali's rope-a-too, too...

But, neither of you two have good poker faces.... Not does old Guy... But I admire you fir satying in the game knowing deep inside that the old hillbilly got the strongest hand here...

So keep attacking... I love it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

Saw in the New York Times that many people are asking for, and getting re-assessment of the percentage damage to their houses.
According to the guidelines, if a house is deemed to have more than 50% damage, it should be destroyed.
Most people who have appealed, however, have succeeded in getting the percentage of damage reduced to under 50%, so they can go ahead and repair and rebuild.
FEMA, etc., want the houses to be above a certain elevation so that they are unlikely to be flooded again, but there is no such requirement in City regulations.

What the outcome will be is up in the air at this time. FEMA is too slow with their evalutions and plans, and is losing credibility. People are just going ahead and doing their thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Trying to breath any life back into a gutted FEMA is like giving a transfusion to a dead man... Bush and his boys drove a stake right thru FEMA's heart in bustin' it from a cabinet level posotion and slashing it's budget...

And now we are hearing that Bush doesn't want to spend the dough to get the levee's up to Cat 5???

Well, yeah, if the feds ain't gonna do what they are supposed to do in getting the levves up to Cat 5 then, hey, even I would qustion rebuilding in the 9th Ward and other low areas...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:01 PM

Bush baby mentioned that $85 billion for Katrina again in his state of the onion address, but so far it doesn't look like any has gone to rebuilding levees, hospitals, or housing.
FEMA, is still alive enough to make noises, but it will become road kill before too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM

Yeah, Q, Bush brags about allm this dough that he's budgeteed for Katrina but of the $85B he ain't written checks yet for much more than $15B...

When the smoke clears this will be like rebuilding Iraq... And we know how that is coming.... Might of fact, Bush announced that he's all done rebuilding Iraq even though he never really spent too much rebuilding it to begin with...

Heck, I'd be surprised to see the Bush folks spend $30B in total before saying, "Sorry, ain't our problem..."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:41 AM

Well, well, well....

Looks as if time lines and organization/funding issues are about to come 'round the bend as Michale Brown is set to testify yet again...

Unless he changes his testimony, maybe a few of the Bushi8tes will have to pay a little closer attention this time around...

One thing for sure, since the last testimony, the Bush-bloggers have had months to twist the lies into a more believable "product"...

Oughtta be interesting...

At least this time the Bushites here in Mudville will have their talking points to go by which hasn't been the case up until now with the obvious floundering on their part...

Bobert (Columbo)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,P
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM

I was thrilled to hear Michael Brown would 'sing' about the 'who cares' attitude the White House had to storm.

But then I realized, he's not going to sing. He's just extorting Bush to cover his legal fees. That sterling character is really coming through again.   

You find yourself unable to tell children to work hard and be honest, and they'll do well in life. They won't. They'll wind up laid off or left to die by creeps like Brown and Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:12 PM

(CBS/AP) Top Department of Homeland Security officials were told that New Orleans' levees were breached the day that Hurricane Katrina roared ashore, former disaster chief Michael Brown said Friday, contradicting previous statements by agency officials who said they did not know the levees were toppling until the next day.

"I find it a little disingenuous," Brown, who at the time headed the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told a Senate oversight committee. "For them to claim that we didn't have awareness of it is just baloney."

Brown also told senators that decisions and policies by the parent Homeland Security Department doomed FEMA to "a path to failure" that led to the government's slow response to the storm. He said that because of a focus on terrorism, natural disasters "had become the stepchild of the Department of Homeland Security."

Brown, who quit under fire as chief of the FEMA just days after the Aug. 29 storm devastated much of the Gulf Coast area, said that FEMA's mission was marginalized when it was swallowed by the newly created Homeland Security agency.

"There was a cultural clash that didn't recognize the absolute inherent science of preparing for a disaster," he told the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee. "Any time you break that cycle ... you're doomed to failure."

He added: "The policies and decisions implemented by the DHS put FEMA on a path to failure."

Brown, who resigned shortly after the storm, is widely considered the public face of the government's sluggish response to Katrina. Brown is expected to start naming names of "who knew what the day Katrina hit," CBS News correspondent Susan Roberts reports.

A management audit prepared by former FEMA Administrator Michael Brown months before the Aug. 29 storm showed that the agency had a lack of adequate and consistent situational awareness to size up emergencies, and was unable to properly control inventory and track assets, said Sen. Susan Collins, a Maine Republican heading the oversight hearing. The audit, she said, also showed that FEMA misunderstood standard response procedures.

"Despite this study, key problems simply were not addressed and, as a result, opportunities to strengthen FEMA prior to Katrina were missed," she said.

In documents released before Friday's hearings, twenty-eight government agencies reported that New Orleans levees were breached the day Hurricane Katrina roared ashore, raising questions about whether the government moved quickly enough to rescue people once they realized the levees had broken. ...

COmplete article here.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:15 PM

Also from CBS:

A timeline of e-mails, situation updates and weather reports, pieced together by Senate Democrats, indicates the Bush administration knew as early as 8:30 a.m. on Aug. 29 about levee failures that would ultimately lead to massive flooding of the city and its surrounding parishes.

White House spokesman Trent Duffy said President Bush and his top aides were fully aware of the massive flooding, and less concerned whether it was caused by levee breaches, overtoppings or failed pumps, all three of which were being reported at the time.

"We knew there was flooding and that's why the No. 1 effort in those early hours was on search and rescue, and saving life and limb," Duffy said.

Shortly after the disaster, Mr. Bush said, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." He later said his comment was meant to suggest that there had been a false sense of relief that the levees had held when the storm passed, only to break a few hours later.

Democrats said the documents showed there was little excuse for the tardy federal response.

"The first communication came at 8:30 a.m.," said Senator Joe Lieberman, top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. "So it is inexplicable to me how those responsible for the federal response could have woken up Tuesday morning unaware of this obviously catastrophic situation."

....


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????

Mebbe hangovers?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:28 PM

The New York Times also had the story today about the ignored message and the failure to move. Brown is showing the bush administration was critically negligent. The aerial photo, reproduced in the Times, shows the breaks in the 17th Street Canal, taken the day Katrina arrived by a federal emergency official, needs no words.
A FEMA official heard of the break in the morning, hitched a ride on a helicopter and confirmed the seriousness of the break, then telephoned his report to headquarters in Washington. Chertoff received the report at 9:27 pm that night. White House officials have now confirmed that they received the report.
The president is caught in his lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM

Let me also refer back to Brown's earlier testimony before a Congressional comitte when he said he personally told Bush on Saturday, August ***27th****, that the Gulf Coast was about to be hit by upwards of a Cat 5 hurricane...

Thias was two full days before the storm hit!!!

What did Bush do??? Well, for one, he kept on vacationing... After that he flew to California for a little politicin'....

Might have even given his patented "My job is to protect the American people" BS/lie speech???

Coming up: The Natiional Response Plan that was written by Bush's inner circle... Yeah, the Bushites here haven't responded to my original thoughts on the NRP but....

What's the sound??? Can it be the NRP train coming 'round the bend??? Lordy, Lordy, thias is lookin' worser and worser for drunk-frat-boy and the inner circle...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 11:16 AM

ASHINGTON Feb 11, 2006 (AP)— Top White House officials were warned that Hurricane Katrina would be "our worst nightmare" the day the storm roared ashore, former federal disaster chief Michael Brown says.

An assertive Brown told senators Friday that he described levee failures and massive flooding last Aug. 29 to chief of staff Andrew Card, deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin and others in the White House.

He said the Homeland Security Department was among a half-dozen government agencies that received regular briefings that day from him and other officials by way of video conference calls.

Administration officials have said they did not realize the severe damage Katrina had caused until after the storm had passed. But under oath, Brown told the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee he could not explain why his appeals failed to produce a faster response.

"I expected them to cut every piece of red tape, do everything they could … that I didn't want to hear anybody say that we couldn't do everything they humanly could to respond to this," Brown said about a video conference with administration officials in which President Bush briefly participated the day before Katrina hit. "Because I knew in my gut this was the bad one."

In the end, the hurricane claimed more than 1,300 lives, uprooted hundreds of thousands more and caused tens of billions of dollars worth of damage in New Orleans and other Gulf Coast communities.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 06:14 PM

Well, well, well, Amos...

I am speachless here... I figured by now Karl Rove would have this one covered like ugly on a gorilla??? Is he on vacation, too???

I mean, here we have the usual cast of Muscat Bush apologists pacing the floor waiting for their "talking points" so they can jump right in with guns a' blazin' accusing this guy or that guy for this or that but what do we have???

Silence???

No, it ain't me that is speachless... It's the Bushites here... I can't believe my ears!!! What, are they going to just conceed a point??? This ain't like 'um at all, Amos...

I'm worried... No, more like concerned... Maybe they is grouping behind a bush (pun inteneded) waiting to jump out like boogiemen???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM

You know what's strange? I ran across the term "femy provinces." I wondered what that meant and found a definition. Femy provinces are provinces under military administration. Femy is the plural usage. The singular is fema.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm, AR??? Does give a feller food fir thought, don't it???


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:05 AM

Republicans brand Katrina response a national failure

· Bush and his homeland security chief singled out
· Details leaked as New Orleans enjoys parade

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Monday February 13, 2006
The Guardian


The response to Hurricane Katrina was "a national failure" and "an abdication of the most solemn obligation to provide for the common welfare", according to details from the first of three anticipated reports into the disaster, published yesterday.
The report, by a committee of Republicans in the Houseof Representatives, declared that "all the little pigs built houses of straw".

The report, entitled A Failure of Initiative, is due to be published on Wednesday. It criticises the homeland security chief, Michael Chertoff, saying his detachment from events led him to implement federal emergency response measures "late, ineffectively or not at all". ...

(The Guardian, 2-13-06)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:43 PM

Yeah, Amos, yer right... Seesm that the House Repubs, believe it or not, are on the verge of issuing a report which is highly critical of Bush and his administration's handling of Katrina!!!

House Repubs!!!

Hey, I could almostr believe the Senate doing this but the House Repubs just don't do this, no matter what...

Have ya noticed the recent "silence" from the Bushites on this thread, Amos???

I can't believe that Karl Rove is going to conceed this point. Maybe these guys finally have figured out that they can't just lie their ways outta screw ups...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:47 PM

Where are the loudmouths who were defending the actions of the Federal administration while the folks in NO were getting knocked down?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:20 AM

In hiding, Bruce...

They are awaiting their marching orders and talking points... Stay tuned... The report comes out tomorrow and you can bet the Karl Rove and the boys are busily making chicken salad out of chicken sh*t...

But you can bet that Rove will have the Bushites up to speed soon...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:49 PM

Might be better than you constantly making Chicken sh*t out of Chicken salad.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 08:55 PM

Well, given the latest reports by both the Congress and even the White House it is apparent that Bush was no more prepared to "protect the American people", irregardless of what causes the catastrophy, than before 9/11...

Even Michael Brown went on network news and when asked what he would say to Bush if he could, Brown said "told you so"...

These were the arguments that I presented here in this thread a long time ago and they stiull hold solid today...

I refresh this thread now and then just as a reminder to the blind Bushite's here that all is not well with the Bush administration...

Yeah, I know that the Bushites have long conceeded that Bush screwed this up and, hence, prolly won't even post to this thread but, hey, here is proff positive that Bush is a screw up and a liar and I'll refresh this thread now and then until Bush is no longer a menace to the United States and the world...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM

I doubt that that there has ever been a worse president.

The next hurricane season is only about 100 days away. I am afraid it may lead to another (name of hurricane)gate.
Work on the waterways and levees (federal) is way too slow.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 09:09 AM

Yeah, Q, looks as if 60% og the repairs to the levee is still incomplete and when completed will only protect N.O. from a Cat 2 storm???

Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results (Einstien)...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Snuffy Smif
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 12:42 PM

Price no object in N.O. car-removal
City appears to choose top-dollar contract
Times-Picayune Wednesday, March 22, 2006
By James Varney
Staff writer

In seeking a contract to remove thousands of flooded and wrecked cars from New Orleans, Mayor Ray Nagin's administration recommended that the city go with the highest quoted price for the job, a review of the 14 proposals submitted last year shows.

It appears the chosen proposal, a $1,000-per-car bid from Colorado-based CH2M Hill, was nearly triple the cost of at least three other bids, records show. The gap between CH2M Hill and the other companies cannot be precisely ascertained, because not every proposal included a price, and some of those that did listed tasks that others did not.

It is clear, however, that CH2M Hill's price has remained relatively constant, because administrators confirmed last week that the contract still being finalized would cost approximately $23 million and the number of uninsured junkers still clogging city streets is between 20,000 and 25,000.

That contrasts with $350 per car, the "firm, fixed price," offered by a consortium led by the Shaw Group, which a five-person review committee ranked as the second-best bid, just two points behind CH2M Hill, according to the committee's scoring sheet.

At least two other offers, from Contingency Management Solutions of Metairie and from MWH Global of Denver, were in the same ballpark as Shaw's, records show.

The contract for removing "abandoned and damaged vehicles" is a professional services one, meaning the mayor is not required by law to select the lowest bidder. On the other hand, price was supposed to figure as 20 percent of each proposal's grade, but the committee gave almost every submission the full 20 points in that category, meaning no advantage accrued to the cheaper submissions.

Jack Dupree, president of Southern Scrap Materials Co., which partnered with Shaw, said those curious figures are a warning sign that the contract doesn't pass the smell test.

"Something's not adding up here," he said. "I've never seen so little transparency in a deal, and it's a mystery why, if you've got a price and picked a winner, nothing has been signed. Why haven't they done it at the price CH2M Hill said they could do it for?"

Controversy has begun to swirl around the issue almost seven months after Katrina made thousands of water-stained, abandoned cars as much a symbol of the city's streets as potholes were before the storm. Queries first arose after revelations that a Texas car-crushing company had offered, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, to pay the city $100 per junked car. The bid, made informally by K&L Auto Crushers at one of Nagin's town hall meetings, still stands, although the terms would have to be renegotiated, K&L's Dan Simpson said last week.

Making money

A rarely invoked city ordinance could also pave the way for the rapid and potentially lucrative removal of the vehicular blight, according to some legal experts.

At the original price and with the original estimate of 30,000 flooded cars, K&L's offer would have netted the cash-starved city $3 million. In contrast, the city is proceeding with the CH2M Hill deal, which includes towing, cataloging and storing the cars at an estimated cost of about $23 million, administrators said.

Thus, even at somewhat lower rates, the city would have taken in more than $3 million if it went with K&L or one of the other car-crushing companies that have proposed similar arrangements, according to the State Police.

Meanwhile, as some national conservative pundits pounded Nagin on the topic this week, the administration appeared to circle its wagons. Neither the mayor nor his staffers have answered questions about the car-removal contract in the past few days.

In the face of the Nagin administration's silence, New Orleans City Council members questioned the deal, with some of them saying a costly arrangement makes no sense if feasible money-making ideas are on the table.

"It seems to me it would have made sense to investigate this," said Councilwoman Renee Gill Pratt. "If someone was willing to pay us money, why wouldn't we want to do that and save money, too?"

Gill Pratt said she plans to raise the issue at the council's budget committee meeting Thursday.

Slow pace?

Council members also expressed frustration at the protracted pace of events. In an interview last week before the car-crushing offers and proposal discrepancies made headlines, Parking Administrator Richard Boseman estimated it could be another six months from the time the deal is signed before the cleanup is finished, though he held out hope it could be quicker. Either way, it's been too long, Councilman Jay Batt argued.

"To take six more months at least, when maybe we could have the cars off the street right now? That's just ridiculous," he said.

Batt said he's not sure the car-crusher options are solid, given they have been presented informally. Nevertheless, if the Nagin administration were less secretive about its contracting practices, some of this embarrassment might have been avoided, Batt said.

"The mayor is tweaking his contracts while the streets look terrible," he said.

Such comments suggest the pending contract with CH2M Hill, whose press office has also not responded to phone calls, is poised to become another contentious issue between a council and an administration already at odds on a host of post-Katrina spending matters.

More spending matters could arise when the second half of the car job is being considered.

In the short term, the city is simply inking a deal with CH2M Hill to cart off the cars and warehouse them. Future work, on the other hand, will involve a second contract that includes the remediation and recycling of environmentally hazardous materials and then the scrapping of the cars. In theory, the city could make some money back at that point, but the outline of that contract hasn't even been sketched out yet, let alone advertised, officials said.

The holdups on the current contract remain maddeningly vague to some players such as Dupree of Southern Scrap. City officials said they are simply awaiting the green light from FEMA, which could reimburse the city 100 percent of the costs if it approves the contract. But the Federal Emergency Management Agency said it is waiting on paperwork from the city.

Dupree accused the city of shifting the scope of the work and blamed some of the delays on those constant changes.

"The scope of this thing has been changed by the city four or five times already," he said. "This whole thing should be much further along, and we're severely frustrated by what's happened."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

Bottom line, N.O. is broke, as in tapped out, and must rely on FEMA approving the funds... If FEMA approves this contract it will be just one more failure at the federal level, to go with all the rest of them upon which I have allready posted...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:47 PM

bobert, you are the chief malcontent of Mudcat.

Billions have been give to NO by the Feds. The Mayor is simply utilizing his ineptness as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

Wonder why the Mayor did not accept, months ago, the offer from a company that WOULD PAY the city $100 per car. This is a firm that would have brought in crushers and would then sell the scrap to steel mills.

Two things stand out here - 8 months later and the city still has done nothing about the 30,000 autos littering the streets and apparently bobert did not read Snuffy's post very well..........
actually, the last part doen't stand out as it is becoming very apparent that reading and understanding is not a prequisite when one's opinion has been predetermined.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

Meanwhile, emergency planners in all of the Gulf coast states (including the ones with Republican governors) are trying to convince the Bush administration to make FEMA an independent agency with presidential oversight (as is was before it was incorporated into the DHS), while they try to prepare for the next hurricane season.

The reason they give being that FEMA as a stand alone agency can be run by people who are experts in managing emergencies, rather than in fighting terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

Agreed that FEMA should be independent. GWB did not want it incorporated into DHS to begin with. I was never able to find why he eventually gave into this scenario I do know he was adamant at first with regard to it not being included.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM

Bush, if you will recall G-zer, didn't even want the Department of Homeland Security... But after it was formed, it was part of his administration meaning that he was responsible for its successes of failures much like he was responsible for the successes (which there were few) and the failures (of which there were many0 as CEO of Harkin. Inc...

See, what you don't seem tou understand is that what folks on the other side of the isle see in Bush. First, he is incomeptant... He has failed or gone AWOL at everything he has tried... Second, and this is more damning, he isn't smart enough to listen to lots of ideas... Oh yeah, we've all heard the various Bushites on NPR say that he listens to lots of different ideas but, bottom line, when you surround yourself with idealogues who think like you then chances are you aren't getting the big picture...

No matter how much attention you, G-zer, want to pay N.O.'s mayor, all you are doing is trying to shift the the focus away from yer guy's collasal failures... I mean, let's face it, even though you might not admit it, if you had to turn your family's business over, whcih BTW was your only source of retirement income, you wouldn't turn it over to Bush...

As fir me being Mudcat's biggest malcontent??? If that means the one here in the Catbox who most detest's the current corrupt Republican regime, then thanks for the compliment...

Bobert (Malcontent an' proud of it....)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:58 AM

Whatever the deal to remove the cars, FEMA will have to approve and pay. Many offers have been made to do work, some speculative and some by outfits with no experience. FEMA must approve and pay.

These concerns are small compared with the slow and low-grade preparations by FEMA and the Corps of Engineers to meet future hurricanes.

The Corpse of Engineers is repairing and rebuilding the levees, etc. only to Category 3 storm level. And this level will not be attained before the hurricane season begins.
"....the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is on an aggressive path to repair and improve the flood control system. The USACE is on schedule to have repairs to damaged areas completed by June 2006, TO HAVE ALL FEDERAL LEVEES CONSTRUCTED TO AUTHORIZED HEIGHTS BY SEPTEMBER 2007, AND TO HAVE FULLY AUTHORIZED LEVELS OF PROTECTION AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE SYSTEM COMPLETED BY 2010 (caps mine).
2007? 2010? And only to Category 3 storm levels? Keep your fingers crossed!
Above is from the Advisory on Base Flood Elevations for Jefferson Parish issued by FEMA April 12, 2006. This and other advisories available from the Times-Picayune website, www.nola.com.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Snuffy
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:09 AM

In other words Bobert will support any asshole as long as he is a Democrat.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 04:05 PM

Can only be better than Rummy, Crummy and Dummy.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM

Yo, Snuff... Nice try but if you'd been 'round here a little longer you'd know that I've made no bones about the fact that I support and vote for the Green Party... Most Dems don't impress me at all...

Bobert (Proud to be Green)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:30 PM

Nothing like voting for someone you know is going to be an automatic loser. This allows that voter to badger everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM

Beats the heck out of votin' for corporate shills, GUEST... If you think that Tom Jefferson would vote for a Repubocrat then you are no student of democracy...

And I don't "badger everyone"... Just crooks, liars, thieves and dumb folks... If you ain't in that group than you have nuthin' to fear...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM

Besides, Bobert is much too smart to be even 75% as stupid as you think he is, Guestoid. You are missing the picture big time.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM

Hmmmmmm??? I'll put the Wes Ginny Slide Rule on that one, Amos, an see if I can figurate just how stupid GUEST thinks I am???

No matter, here we are at pushin' 400 posts on this thread an' not one Bushite has rebutted anything I have put forward??? Oh sure, they have called names and tries to divert the thread the best they can but as far as I've seen, it's been nuthin' by rope-a-dope on their part, with the emphasis on the dope....

Can I can any Bushite to come up with an intellegent rebuttal??? I mean anything???

Bush blew the crap out of this one and it showed that, inspite of his boasting that his job was to protect the American people, when the smoke cleared, those boastings were nuthin; more than that: boasts....

Yeah, Bush can talk the talk, but he can't walk the walk...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 07:38 AM

Well, now that you mentioned it, Amos, I had not really given any thought to percentages but perhaps we can settle at 70. Don't really know the guy and judging his intelligence level from afar doesn't seem cricket to me. Probably sorry you brought it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM

C (as in Cat), C, and there was me thinking that anyone who votes feels free to badger all the other parties. C.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Snuffy
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

Bobert the Naginite wins by default because he is 100% stupid. Too stupid to recognize a fact when one is presented.

Amos an Bobert are standing side by side.

Someone yells "will the dumbest one step forward"
They both step forward.

So the person yells "will the dumbest one step back"

They both step back.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 06:01 PM

Extremely powerful argumentation there, clear premises, tight logic, all the evidence one could wish for. Eat your heart out Freddy Ayer.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM

I'd like to enter Snuffy's above post as Exhibit #198 that the Bushites know thay have no defense of the positions and arguments I put forward some 380 posts ago...

Thanks, Snuffster, for so elequently showin' yer Bushite ass...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:12 PM

One o' them New Oleans crooks Bobert wants to pertect:

bribe-talker is Democrat Rep. William Jefferson of New Orleans, LA



A businessman who paid bribes to a member of the US House of Representatives and chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, has pleaded guilty to a two-count indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit bribery and the payment of bribes to a public official, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Vernon L. Jackson, 53, of Louisville, Kentucky, entered his plea in US District Court in Alexandria, VA. Jackson faces up to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $500,000, under the terms of his plea agreement with prosecutors. Also, as part of his plea, Jackson has agreed to cooperate with law enforcement officials in an ongoing probe of public corruption related to telecommunications deals in Africa and elsewhere.

While court papers refer to the suspect congressman as "Representative A," the identity of the alleged bribe-talker is Democrat Rep. William Jefferson of New Orleans, LA, according to a source close to the investigation. Jefferson is serving his eighth term in the House.

According to the criminal information, from 1998 through this year, Jackson had been the Chairman and CEO of iGate, Inc., a Kentucky firm developing technology which is designed to transmit data, audio, and video communications over copper wire. In his plea, Jackson admits that in 2000, he was introduced to Rep. Jefferson, who was active in promoting US trade and business in Africa with other members of the Black Caucus.

Rep. Jefferson allegedly provided official assistance to Jackson in persuading the US Army to test iGate's broadband two-way technology and other iGate products. Jefferson's official assistance led to the placement of iGate on the US General Services Administration schedule, making iGate products eligible for use in various federal contracts. Ultimately, iGate's products were used by the US Army at Fort Stewart, Georgia.

Jackson further admits that in early 2001, Rep. Jefferson told him that he would not continue to provide official assistance to Jackson's company, iGate, unless Jackson agreed to pay a nominee company ostensibly maintained in the names of Rep. Jefferson's spouse and children. Jackson agreed and signed a consulting services agreement committing iGate to pay the nominee company various things of value, thereby concealing Jackson's payments in exchange for Jefferson's performance of official acts in aiding iGate's business in Africa and elsewhere.

According to the FBI, Jackson made monthly payments of $7,500 to Jefferson, as well as a percentage of Jackson's gross sales. Rep. Jefferson also received a percentage of capital investments raised for iGate, and options for iGate stock.

In his plea, Jackson admitted to allowing over $400,000 to be paid to the nominee company and that the consulting services agreement was designed to conceal the illegal nature of the payments demanded by Rep. Jefferson.

In return for the agreement by Jackson to pay "things of value," Rep. Jefferson agreed to perform numerous official acts in furtherance of iGate's business, including efforts to influence high-ranking officials in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon and elsewhere through official correspondence and in-person meetings; Jefferson's travel to those countries to setup these meetings; and meetings with personnel of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, the official export credit agency of the United States, in order to help with potential financing for iGate business deals in those countries.

"According to his plea, Vernon Jackson got favorable treatment from a Congressman because he paid for it," said Alice S. Fisher of the Criminal Division of the US Department of Justice.

"Public corruption is not a victimless crime -- all of us lose when people believe public officials can be brought. Those who conspire with elected officials to subvert the integrity of our government will be prosecuted."

While Vernon Jackson is scheduled for sentencing in this bribery scheme, so far Rep. William Jefferson has not been indicted, nor is there a great deal of attention being paid to the case by members of the House or the mainstream news media.

Rep. Jefferson is the subject of yet another ongoing criminal investigation. In August 2005, federal agents searched his home in New Orleans and his home and car in Washington, DC, as well as the home and office of his campaign accountant in New Orleans.

As part of the investigation, the US home of the Vice President of Nigeria also was searched. During the raid on Rep. Jefferson's home, FBI agents say that they found a large amount of cash in Jefferson's freezer.

In addition, in the midst of the Katrina disaster in New Orleans, allegations arose that Rep. Jefferson used emergency response personnel and transportation, including members of the National Guard, to retrieve "packages" from his home. These were people attempting to rescue and protect victims of Katrina.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:05 PM

Excuse me. But I fail to see where Bobert said he wanted to defend Rep. Jefferson or Vernon Jackson. Your assertion seems to be hollow chest-beating.

Note, too, that the people of New Orleans have just re-elected Mister Nagin as Mayor. Obviously he must have done something right. Or was it a Diebold operation in your book? I notice he didn't have to ask for a recount.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 06 - 04:21 PM

No, we don't want to protect any crooks. What we want to do is get ALL of the crooks out of office. Both the Republican crooks, AND the Democrat crooks. I suspect Bobert is in agreement with me on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:22 PM

Yeah, seems GUEST hasn't been 'round here to long... I ain't got no love fir Dems either... If they are crooks then boot 'um... Crooks is crooks...

Why, GUEST, would you go thru the trouble to make the big letters when the cru7x of yer post was "Look at me. I just arrived here and I figure I'll just attack Bobert from my position of ignorance!!!"

Well, pal, it worked... You sho nuff brought some serious attention to the fact that you are totally ignorant when it comes to professing that you know much about about me or my political leanings...

Nice job....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:25 PM

Oh, an' for tbhe record, maybe you'd like to be the first to offer any respectable rebuttal to the charges I have made against the Bush administration in this thread... God knows, no one else has come close other than doing what you just did... Try to change the subject... Or call me names... Been lotta that but nuthin' that would get so much as a "Gentleman's C" in Debating 101...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:03 PM

A couple facts - I have been in New Orleans, early on and a return trip with the Red Cross.

A few weeks after the the water dropped, a recycling company offered the City a $50 per car fee for every destroyed vehicle. That means that they would pay the city of NO $50 for every car they would crush or shred and remove from the city.

NOW, the illustrious Mayor is receiving bids where THE CITY will pay $500 to $1000 per car for the same process. Our tax dollars at work, eh?
And don't give me any BS about FEMA approving it - the City has received the funds and it is theirs to do with as they please. The Mayor has a better chance of kickbacks with this plan.

Oh yes - the second fact - bobert has not a clue as to what he has been saying since the start of this thread. A simple fact of an individual (bobert) trying to be more than one could possibly be with the meager resources available.

Keep in mind, many of us have been there. Were you, bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:30 PM

Today, I spoke with a young woman who spent her vacation with the Animal Rescue people in New Orleans. The situation is a mess. There are literally thousands of cats and dogs still losse in the streets BECAUSE they were not neutered prior to the disaster and so continue to multiply.
4000 feeding stations have been established but they do not have enough volunteers to keep them filled.
Spay or neuter your pets, people. And if you are thinking of adopting a pet, look into Katrina rescues.
The 2006-07 Hurricane Season starts this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:41 PM

Give yerself a big pat on the back, GUEST...

Nevermind, you just did that...

No, I haven't been to N.O. since Katrina... Does that make the Bush administration any less the utter failure that it has been???

This thread ain't 'bout me, GUEST... It's about a president who after 9/11 went out and said over and over abnd over that his job was to "protect the American people"... Heck, he probably said those exact words a thousand times and then came Katrina...

Well, Katrine could have been a terrorist attack anywhere in the U.S. It didn't have to be a hurrican.. What showed is that Bush had been lieing about making the right kind of decisions and spending priorities that, ahhhh, would have actually had to occur to protect the American people...

In other words, Bush lied...

He was not prepared to protect the American people...

Thi8s thread is all about that, GUEST... It isn't about junk cars or towing fees... It isn't about you going to N.O or me not going to N.O...

It's about a man who choze to lie to the American people hoping that nuthin' weould happen to expose the lies...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,fumblefingers
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:20 PM

It works from the bottom up despite what you say. The individual,City/County or Parish/State/Federal.That's the chain of responsibility.

We had a tornado go through here not long ago that destroyed a number of homes and killed several people. Neither the Governor nor the President came around. FEMA didn't show up at all. Nobody expected them to. They understood, as do most people, that looking after every city and town in the country is not the baliwick of the President of the United States. That's why all these levels of government exist in the first place.

Why not just own up to being a Bush basher who is looking for any and everything to blame the president for.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:49 PM

Hey Bobert. Been away a while and checked in and figured your name might be at the start of the "KatrinaGate" thread. And since tomorrow begins the '06 hurricane season, I'll throw in a couple of centavos.

I think I made the point somewhere on this forum that New Orleans was turned over to the federal govt. in Feb of 2003.

New Orleans defaulted on lots of federal loans and the feds took over. It was by design. Ten square mails of DC isn't much of a lab for terrorism, so they branched out. The Dept of Homeland Security took over the running of New Orleans in Feb '03 and consolidated 45 city offices into 8. Answerable directly to and only to DHS. Then they waited.

And when the storm hit they blew the levees. Instant catastrophe to see how plans work when they're moved from the drawing board to the field. And Katrina provided lots of instructive data. Ring a city with troops and turn back relief convoys. Unconstitutionally collect guns. Land foreign troops on American soil. Claim it's all a big "turf war" and "incompetence" and "lack-of-funding" problem and have the govt-controlled media sell that to Americans dumb enough to think a plane with a tank full of kerosene could bring down a 110 story steel tower.

Anyway, the criminally complicit media reported Katrina as a category 5 hurricane for months, but now we know it was a cat 3. That news dribbled out slowly and was phrased in a way intended to make us think they were analyzing records and were downgrading it in hindsight. What BS. They knew AT THE TIME IT WAS IN PROGRESS that it was a 3, but they also knew they'd have to sell the death and destruction in a way that would make sense to the toob-heads, so a category 5 it was.

So NOAA and the news media is in league with our terrorist govt. Just another branch of the terrorist govt. It'll be interesting to see what they have in store for us this year.

Have all those points been made? Too lazy to look at the whole thread. Hope you're well.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Guest from Texas
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:52 PM

The above is from the Texas Guest. Forgot to sign.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:05 PM

Well, well, well...

Good to hear from ya, my friend... Has been awhile...

You see what I'm having to put up with these days, don't cha... Like fumblefingers and his buds... They will make every argument they can to protect their man... They will never consider that maybe the guy is a screw-up...

So they say stuff like, "Bu8sh can't be there to kiss every booboo, can he???

Well, iof course he can't... That isn't the issue... The issue is about protecting massive population centers... Ya' don't do that be stripping out the funding for FEMA... Ya' don't do that by appointing yer old college drinking buddies to jobs that require skills other than knowing how to tap a keg... You don't do that by not living up to yer obligations to maintain the levee system...

N.O. was a disaster waiting to happen and the Bush administartion sat by, evn after it had happened, in denial...

That's the real story here... It's a story of gross incompetence...

Like what about the National Response Plan that the Bush folks had worked out??? Where was it displayed??? Hey, fumbler, I'm asking you a reasonable question... What about Bush's National Response Plan???

Oh, you didn't get the memo??? Hadn't heard of it???? Hmmmmmmm??? Hey, don'ty feel too bad... Seesm that the folks who were supposed to impliment it hadn't either...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 09:48 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/ts_nm/weather_hurricanes_flood_dc_1


Incomplete system blamed for Katrina crisis

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - An incomplete system of defenses built in pieces over 40 years was responsible for the flooding that devastated New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina last year, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said on Thursday.

A few critical links failed in the system of earthen levees and concrete floodwalls designed to protect the city, the report said.

The region's flood protection system, built by the Corps over the past 40 years, was compromised by "incompleteness in the system" and inconsistent standards of construction and protection levels.

The eight-volume, 6,100-page report by the Interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force is one of the most extensive to date in the effort to find out what allowed storm damage to spiral out of control.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM

Watched on Anderson Cooper the Corpse of Engineers building away on their levees and gates to protect NO. Only to level 3. And they won't make it before the start of the hurricane season.
What fumble feathers and others can't get in their skulls is that the Navigation Canal and supporting levees which couldn't stop the surge from Lake Ponchartrain are the responsibility of the Corps of Engineers and ultimately the Federal government since they are part of the internationl waterways system. This is all spelled out in the bumff (federal regulations) previously discussed in this and other NO threads.

What will be the next failure of the most incompetent federal administration that the U. S. A. has ever had?

(even with his mucked-up eyeglasses, Bobert can still see more clearly than some posting here. Didja get a new pair yet? I am still getting used to the new lens installation).


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM

Yep, it is all the fault of GWB - all of it!!!!!!!!

Just ask 'Q' and Bobert. My only question is how GWB started the hurricane and how he did the guidance so it hit where it did.

Other than that, my mind is completely secure in the fact.............


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM

No, Guest, this ain't got one danged thing do do with a hurricane but Bush's lies... He said he had it covered... He went around the country sayin' that his job was to protect the American people and, when the chips were down, he wasn't...

He lied!!!

Hey, he's the CEO and he should have had the right people and the right ideas in place...

GHe didn't!!!

Yeah, he boasted of having things covered but...

...he didn't!!!

No, this could have been some terrorist plot that had disabled an American city... It didn't have to be a hurricane... Bush said he was ready but...

...he wasn't!!!

That's the way it was, GUEST... You can go on defending the Bush administration's response to Katrina until the cows come home but guess what???

Give???

Yer guy ain't presidential material.... Not that I liked Slick Willie much more but Slick Willie would have eaten up 9/11 and had the feds ready for a Katrina...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM

My only question is how GWB started the hurricane and how he did the guidance so it hit where it did.

Come off it. Going by what I read from the "Bush camp" defending the president at the time, it would appear that even I as a nobody living in the UK had more clue about the course of the hurricane and the degree of destruction than the president of the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:23 PM

Yeah Slick Willy will eat just about anything including a Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 12:15 AM

Here's How Bush created Katrina Gate:

Him and his evil oil company friends imported cheap oil from countrys that hate us and made so much cheap gas from it. This made them think like they got the US by the 'nads, they get all rowdy and a bunch of them crash the twin towers in NYC amongst other things.

Meanwhile his Evil Detroit buds start in to making big gas hog SUV's and such that the avereage level headed conservation minded US consumer couldn't resis. That caused a lot of polution and an increased demand for the cheap gas.

At the sane time his other evil cattle rancher comrades down in SA keep clearing the rainforest to make way for a few cows per acre. This causes more greenhouse gas and global warming. He adds to this global warimg by refusing to sign Kyoto simply because up and comming worse poluters than the US are exempt. The resultant Global warming and polution causes increasingly worse hurricane seasons.

One day a real bad one pops up on the radar headed for NO. Bush decides will not help out New Orleans because they ain't paying enough taxes and if a bunch 'em drown it will reduce the burden on the government which he has already run into the ground with his illegal wars and so forth.

He decides to hold back on everything, blame it on the locals down there and the democrats who demanded the creation DHS and then demanded that FEMA be part of DHS.

So now we have a few average, honest, intellignt citizens who are slowly exposing his scheme and educating the ignorant majority to his evil ways.

Gee. ain't life horrible here in the US? I think I will tie some old leaky innertubes together and see if I can make it to Cuba where the government functions correctly.

F


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

I'll buy you a ticket, F, fir yer one way flight to Havana...

Yer sarcasim oughta play well down there...

402 postas and still not one well thoyught out rebuttal to the original charges I made in this thread... I think that is a record for the Bushites...

But they sho nuff get credit for:

1. Trying to highjack this thread

2. Name calling

3. Sarcasim

4. Ignmorance

5. All of the above...

And the beat goes on....


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM

Nobody is trying to defend Bush. You automatically assert that anything against what you claim is the "real" problem is a Bush defense.

It makes the whole thread appear to be a Bush attack and a defense of the inept, corrupt local government in Louisiana in an effort to put all the blame on one person.

That is why you will not any rebuttal of your charges mr. prosecutor, judge and jury. Now if bush had been a Latino gang leader sentenced to die you would be defending him.

Your logic is as sloppy as your typing. You are clearly an old burned out anti-establishment Hippy, stuck in the past. Another crybaby maggot that enjoys the good life in America while crying and sucking snot about the current state of affairs rather than going forward from here.

If you want some thing to bitch about, som injustice to trumpet, consider this: About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. Three-fourths of the deaths are children under the age of 5


F.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM

PS:

Will you feel guilty the next time you chow down on a Whopper knowing that about one person dies from lack of food for every chew?

The fact that you cleaned your glases with an abrasive highlights your piss poor judgement.

F


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM

bobert, you wouldn't/couldn't accept or recognize a rebuttal if your life depended on it.

I am convinced you do the "Devil's advocate" bit. Benefit of the doubt for you.

Or, you have to be Twins because one person can't be that friggin' naive.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:59 PM

LOL...

First of all, I don't eat no Whopper's... Might of fact I don't eat no 4 legged critters at all... Mase a deal wid 'um in the 60's... They don't chew on me and I won't chew on them... It's held up now since then...

Second of all, F-ster, if you'd like to come out from behind yer mask, sign in as a real person who is traceable and transparent then I'll go head to head wid you on who has done more work to help folks in poverty... And I can provide references... But I'm not going to match resume's with someone who is too cowardly to come out and put their own experiences as a tranparent memebr against mine... Heck, you could make up anything... Like I said, come on out and we can rumble...

Lets see? What else??? Well, given I have yet to see a rebuttal, inspite of using my spare pair of glasses which see as well as the scratched ones, I reckon not much...

Oh yeah, I don't bash Bush... But I sho nuff bash his policies... Heck, I wouldn't mind sittin' down wid him over a cold beer... Of course, he would order pretzels...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM

bobert, can you say "avoidance of the issue".

What difference does it make if I know your Social Security number or just call you Bozo. You have been stopped in your tracks and your ability to keep up the false rehtoric has been stymied.

However, I find it somewhat surprising that you would simply stop as opposed to continuing with your inane Bullshit.

Perhaps it is time for you to speak on something you are aware of factually. Take your time.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM

What ever you eat, you are eatin' good in the neighborhood while others are starving to death.

As to why you have not had any rebuttals, how do you rebut a brain fart?

I don't think anybody here denies that Bush made mistakes. Nobody is perfect. The question is who else made mistakes and what lead to these mistakes. Bush may be guilty of some incomptency but you choose to focus entirely on that part and magnify it so it fills your whole field of (fuzzy) vision blotting out any other contributing factors. You refuse to take in the whole picture.

This may sound like a personal attack but it is "food" for thought. I saw on the Discovery Channel that the human species did not start gaining much intelligence until they became omnnivores. They said it was the Iron in meat that created new and improved brain cells.

F


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM

What exactly is the issue you think Bobert is avoiding, Fernando? What proposition are you putting forward, stated in plain English?

"Bush's management of events related to Katrina and the devastation of New Orleans was competent and timely."

"Bush tried to do the right thing but was foiled by (a) incompetent underlings and (b) local corruption on the part of the State government and the mayor of NO."

What are you saying, aside from the ad hominem mischaracterizations, if anything?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:29 PM

I think Fernando is suggesting that Bobert is the cause of world hunger. At least that's what it looks like from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:32 PM

Perhaps, F-ster, you would like to elaborate on jsut what you7 think a good president is responsible for??? It was his team that bungled the National Response Plan... It was his team that didn't activate what little resources were left in FEMA after he and his team gutted FEMA... It was his team that reduced the funding for maintenance on the levees prio0r to Katrina... It was Bush himself that rather than take Katrina seriously even after the levees wer breached who elected to go on a campaign trip to California...

If outright incompetence is what yer looking for, F, then I'm beginning to understand what the "F" is for...

As for yer accusations that I haven't done my share of lifting in the war of p[overty, I'm still waiting for you to come clean on how much lifting you have done??? But you won't do that becuase it will expoase you as a blowhard fake...

So until then, fire away from the safety of yer little Caprice trunk... Real friggin' brave, fella...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM

Amos got it right for once: "Bush tried to do the right thing but was foiled by (a) incompetent underlings and (b) local corruption on the part of the State government and the mayor of NO."

Who would have drowned or suffered from the flod if NO had been evacuated?

Mohammad Bobsterino sits bravely on top of his trunk to do his sniping so that makes it OK.

He is so one sided he still can't admit to the whole pixture and accuses anyone who does of trying to protect Bush.

C'mon talk and about the whole scenario not just the ones that you like to gloat about.

F


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM

Ahhhhh, F.... Do you even know anuything abouth the National Response Plan??? I don't think so and if you think that is snipin' then you are one ignorant, and well as cowardly, person...

I don't have to snipe... I'm a real person with transparency... Real people don't snipe... Only cowards and low life's snipe...

You make these wild-ass accusations about me from the safety of anonymity.... Like I said, real people don't snipe... Only cowards...

You have added nuthing to this thread... You seem to have no basic understanding of the positions... I doubt if you have even read this thread... You are no better than a creep in the trunk of a car shootin' people...

Have a nice life... You aren't worthy of any more of my time because you are incapable, after over 400 posts here to mount any rebuttal to the charges that put forth other than bumper sticker level respones...

Debating ignorant people is a waste of time...

Like I said, have a nice little (very little) cowardly life...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:45 PM

Bobert are you realy Bill O'reilly in disguise?

You don't answer anything and any responses to your meiloristic pettifoggery just bounce off like bullets bouncing off of Superman.

Is it your impaired vision or extreme cranial density that causes your one sided myopia?

You can call me a coward all day long but I think you must be afraid of looking at the whole event.

Yes I am having a fine life here in the USA just like you only I am enjoying it more than you because I see no need to bitch and whine about shit that is over and done with.

Are you going to try to prevent that convicted sniper from being executed?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

It's not over and done with until the problems that caused FEMA and the Corps of Engineers to fall down on the job have been corrected. And they haven't been corrected yet. So the situation is still ongoing.

Remember, those people work for the taxpayers. And we pay them a lot of money to do their jobs properly. Local officials can be voted out of office, but we can't vote the FEMA officials or the Corps of Engineers out of office. So we have to find other ways to hold them accountable or get them replaced.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM

Good points, CarolC...

But keep in mind that there's only but so much money available for various projects an' the Bush administration ***cut*** funding for the levees over the last several years...

Yes, there is much work to be done that wouldn't have to be done if the Bush administration hadn't been so Hell-bent on shiftin' so many of the nations resources to an ill-thought-out invasion of Iraq at the expense of out own country...

Oh sure, the Bushites ***said*** they had stuff covered but say6ing stuff is cheap... Deeds speak louder than words... Bottom line, the Bushites knew they were leaving some front's uncovered with their war of choice and were hoping that nuthin' would come along that would blow their cover.... Then Katrina and the house of cards fell apart...

Some folks would argue that it was the locals who were at fault but those who would make that arguement apparently know nuthin' about Bush's own National Response Plan that put fed "boots-on-the-ground" should a catastophy occur that swamped local governements or made them ineffective... This was the Bush plan... Not Congresses... Problem is that not only was there no funding to carry it out but it would require the president or Secretary of Homeland Security to be on the ball and initiate the plan...

Well, inspite of the protests of the few blinded Bushites, those two things have become painfully obvious to everyone else... The Bush adminsitration failed miserably in funding the agencies that were to meet the challenges of a catastrohy and then when the levees were topped went into some kind of denial while knowing they hadn't adequtely prepared to "protect the American people" afterall...

No, as much as some would like to shift blame to the locals, it was a monumental failing of the Bush administration... Those who have followed this thread and know the things I have put forth know there can be no otrher conclusuion...Only folks who have come onboard lately thinking they really don't have to know what has allready been put forward are now showing their juvenilist ignorance about the issue...

Meanwhile, yeah, a Cat 3 will take N.O. out tomorrow....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:26 AM

What boss would ever think to tell his employers that the reason it got all f--ked up was ,,,,,,duh,,,, because my staff really screwed up.
"The buck stops when it reaches the top"(Barry).
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fenando
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:30 AM

Beat that drum so loud it drowns out everything else. Keep on blaring your bushite accusation but don't answer any questions like.

"Who would have drowned or suffered from the flood if NO had been evacuated?"

And what boss did ever think to tell his employers that the reason it got all f--ked up was ,,,,,,duh,,,, because my staff really screwed up?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Missy
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

If Cat 3 will take N.O. out tomorrow I think they should be ready to evacuate. I know I would if I lived below sea level. I would not even depend on the government to get me out, just maybe keep the way clear.

I think this is the plan most people in flood and hurricane prone areas have.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM

And what would you do, Missy, if you were 80 years old, confined to a wheelchair, couldn't drive, didn't have any family, didn't have enough money for public transporation out of town or motels because all of your meager retirement pension was being spent on diabetes medicine and supplies, and you weren't on the social services radar at all because you didn't believe in accepting charity?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Missy
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

What would you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

I guess I'd drown.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Missy
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

Sounds logical.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

Well, I hope you don't, Carol.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:10 PM

It's ok, Amos. I don't live below sea level (or have any of those other problems)... yet.

But thanks.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM

But in reaqlity, Katrina is just the tip of the iceburg... Hey, Katrina was last year's "Exhibit A" that the Bush administartion hasn't done anything to make Americans safer... Quite the opposite as it pointed out that the Bushite tinkerin' with domestic safety nets thru underfunding and general lousy management has left Americans more vulnerable to all kinds of disasters...

So for yoy folks living above sea level I wouldn't breath too easily... Lots of stuff happens above sea level that can leave a region devistated and guess what??? Bush and his little circle of friends haven't fixed anyything since Katrina... OPh sure, there are more supplies... Who tghe heck cares if you can't get them to the folks who need them... There were plenty of supplies when Katrine hit but after the two day "duhhhhhhhh, Ralpf" on the Bushite's part in not implimenting their own National Response Plan, it was too late to get those supplies to where they needed to be...

Yet some pea-brained folks think that the N.O. governemnt should have figgured out everything on it's own... Hey, that what the Nastional Response Plan was all about but these same pea-brained folks keep repeatin' their bumper-sticker mantra...

Like I said, the USD i8s no better today to deal with a catastrphy than it was when Katrina hit...

This is why I blame George Bush... If I were president I would have amde the effort to be sure that I wasn't going to repeat the same policy... This man is incapable of making changes... This is why he has failed at everything he has ever attempted to do...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Alphonse
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM

If you are 80 years old, confined to a wheelchair, couldn't drive, didn't have any family, didn't have enough money for public transporation out of town or motels because all of your meager retirement pension was being spent on diabetes medicine and supplies, and you weren't on the social services radar at all because you didn't believe in accepting charity, George Bush should hire a clarivoiant to find you and get you to safety.

If not, he is not protecting Americans like he should


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:23 PM

That's right, Alphonse.

Alternatively, the DHS could work with local governments to set up plans for making sure that public transportation is available for free for anyone who doesn't have a way to get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM

Well why didn't some bright eyed democrat demand that before Katrina hit NO?

It's all 100% their fault even if they never choked on a pretzel.

F


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Alphonse
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

Evcauation is the best policy. Why wasn't New orleans evacuated on Saturday and Sunday?

"virtually everyone in Cameron and Calcasieu parishes left the area at least a day before the storm hit. There were reports of very few injuries and no fatalities 12 hours after Rita passed through."


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Flashback
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM

Addording to CNN it looks like every body knew what was coming. They just hadn't figured out who to blame it on:

New Orleans braces for monster hurricane
Crescent City under evacuation; storm may overwhelm levees

Monday, August 29, 2005; Posted: 12:10 a.m. EDT (04:10 GMT)

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans braced for a catastrophic blow from Hurricane Katrina overnight, as forecasters predicted the Category 5 storm could drive a wall of water over the city's levees.

The huge storm, packing 160 mph winds, is expected to hit the northern Gulf Coast in the next nine hours and make landfall as a Category 4 or 5 hurricane Monday morning.

The National Hurricane Center reports that conditions are already deteriorating along the central and northeastern coast. (Watch video to see the worst case scenario)

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor's announcement)

"This is a threat that we've never faced before," Nagin said. "If we galvanize and gather around each other, I'm sure we will get through this."

He exempted essential federal, state, and local personnel; emergency and utility workers; transit workers; media; hotel workers; and patrons from the evacuation order.

About 1.3 million people live in New Orleans and its suburbs, and many began evacuating before sunrise. (Watch video to see who's staying and who's leaving)

Nagin estimated that nearly 1 million people had fled the city and its surrounding parishes by Sunday night. (Watch time lapse video of the evacuation)

Between 20,000 and 25,000 others who remained in the city lined up to take shelter in the Louisiana Superdome, lining up for what authorities warned would be an unpleasant day and a half at minimum.

City officials told stranded tourists to stay on third-floor levels or higher and away from windows. (See video from New Orleans, a city below sea level)

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that New Orleans could expect a complete loss of electricity and water services as well as intense flooding.

"We know we're going to have property damage," she told CNN's "Larry King Live." "We know we're going to have high wind damage. We're hoping we're not going to lose a lot of lives."

About 70 percent of New Orleans is below sea level, and is protected from the Mississippi River by a series of levees. (Full story)

Forecasters predicted the storm surge could reach 28 feet; the highest levees around New Orleans are 18 feet high.

Hurricane-force winds extend 105 miles from the center of the mammoth storm and tropical storm-force winds extend outward up to 230 miles. It is the most powerful storm to menace the central Gulf Coast in decades.

Isolated tornadoes are also possible Sunday across southern portions of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and the Florida Panhandle, forecasters said.

Federal Emergency Management Agency teams and other emergency teams were in place to move in as soon as the storm was over, FEMA Undersecretary Michael Brown said.

Katrina is blamed for at least seven deaths in Florida, where it made landfall Thursday as a Category 1 hurricane. As much as 18 inches of rain fell in some areas, flooding streets and homes. (See video of the damage floodwaters left in one family's new house)

At midnight ET, Katrina was centered about 90 miles south of the mouth of the Mississippi River. It was moving to the northwest at about 10 mph.

National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield said: "There's certainly a chance it can weaken a bit before it gets to the coast, but unfortunately this is so large and so powerful that it's a little bit like the difference between being run over by an 18-wheeler or a freight train. Neither prospect is good." (Watch Mayfield's assessment of Katrina)
Bush issues disaster declarations

President Bush announced Sunday that he had issued disaster declarations for Louisiana, Mississippi and parts of southern Florida. The declaration for Miami-Dade and Broward counties in Florida will allow residents there to apply for federal disaster aid.

"We'll do everything in our power to help the people and communities affected by this storm," he said.

The president urged anyone in the storm's path "to put their own safety and the safety of their families first by moving to safe ground."

Jesse St. Amant, the emergency management chief for Louisiana's southernmost Plaquemines Parish, said nearly 95 percent of the parish's 27,000-plus residents had fled by Sunday afternoon. Those who remained were being told that they are "gambling with their own lives."

"I think they just don't believe something of this nature can ever happen in their lifespan, and I think they're going to be wrong," he said.

As far east as Mobile, Alabama, 118 miles away from New Orleans, authorities warned of storm surges approaching 20 feet.

"I'm afraid most people look at the map and say, 'It's going to New Orleans, we're all right,'" said Mobile Mayor Mike Deal. "We're in harm's way with the current path of this storm."

Hurricane warnings are posted from Morgan City, Louisiana, eastward to the Alabama-Florida state line, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain. This means winds of at least 74 mph are expected in the warning area within the next 24 hours.

A tropical storm warning and a hurricane watch are in effect from the Alabama-Florida state line eastward to Destin, Florida, and from west of Morgan City to Intracoastal City, Louisiana. A tropical storm warning is also in effect from Intracoastal City, Louisiana, west to Cameron, Louisiana, and from Destin, Florida, eastward to Indian Pass, Florida.

A tropical storm warning means tropical storm conditions, including winds of at least 39 mph, are expected within 24 hours. A hurricane watch means hurricane conditions are possible, usually within 36 hours.

Category 5 is the most intense on the Saffir-Simpson scale. Only three Category 5 hurricanes have made landfall in the United States since records were kept. Those were the Labor Day hurricane of 1935, 1969's Hurricane Camille and Hurricane Andrew, which devastated the Miami area in 1992. Andrew remains the costliest U.S. hurricane on record, with $26.5 billion in losses.

Camille came ashore in Mississippi and killed 256 people


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:28 PM

The Republican Congress would never have approved that, Fernando.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM

How do you know? They approved the creation of DHS and they Approved the incorporation of FEMA into DHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM

Just a hunch, Fernando.

But, I notice the Republicans didn't come up with that idea either.

Still, it's the job of FEMA to come up with and to implement ideas like that one. That's what we pay them to do. And they didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:52 PM

FEMA is just a shell of what it used to be... It's been demoted and had it's funding slashed... There is really no agency that filled in to do what FEMA has done in the past... The DHS ain't up to the task... Heck, if another Katrina hit tyomorrow there is not one single person who would have as much power to act as any head of FEMA had prior to Bush...

What we have now are 5 Principle Federal Officials (PFO's) and a number of Federal Coordination Officers (FSO's) with overlapping responsibilities... This is a invitation for diaster and more finger pointing... No one is really in charge under the "new and improved" reorganization... If anything, the "new and improved" reorganization is worse than the Bushite's last ideas...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:17 PM

I say undo what the Democrats insisted had to be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:20 PM

I say undo what the Democrats insisted had to be done

I totally agree with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

Me, too...The DHS is a joke... But the organization of it and the policies and appointemnts fall on Bush and his boyz...

The Dems gave him way too much power with this department... W@ay too much and he and hi9s little circle of firends just plainly werwen't up to the task of making it work...

As we speak, millions of dollars are being spend to have truck drivers drive ice around the country??? Like that wasn't a Democratic idea???

What we need is FEMA back as a quasi-independent agency that isn't part of the politics of the day...

Yes to a stake thru the heart to the DHS!!! And look at the Dem who pushed it thru??? Joe "Repubocrat" Lieberman... Geeze, I wouldn't vote for that war monging creep for dog catcher...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:43 PM

Howcome ain't no 'catters from N.O. on this thread crying the blues?

Bobert sounds like one of them carpet baggers come to town to educate the locals.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM

Scalawag Rufus, go to. You are but an intemperate bag of wind and dark smells.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:45 PM

I went to see the Doc one day las week cause I was feeling poorly and real nervous like.

He told me I was impotent so I went to the store and got me a new suit, put it on at the store and went right home.

When my wife saw me commin in the front door she axed me why I was so dressed up. I said the doc told me I was impotent and I figgered If I is so impotent, I ought to look impotent too.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM

Define "locals", Rufe....

Iz born an' raised in the Southland... Educated in the Southland... Lived 20 sumethin' years in the Capitol of the Southland... Drove a race car many years on Friday nights in the Southland... Prolly know more 'bout the Southland than 99% of the folks who come here...

Ain't no carpet bag unner my arm or ov'r mah sholder, Rufe the Goof...

Mighty easy to go playin' "Pin-the-Label" from the safety of GUESTdom, however....

Carpet-bagger, my ass, sir...

Bobert (Southern bred and Southern raised)

p.s. That don't make me no moron, 'er racist, 'er friggin Bush lover, ya' hear???


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:58 PM

Where they at Bobert?

All the Bushites raise their hand.

All the New Orleanians raise their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:04 PM

Amos thinks I fart too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM

I decline to respond to words placed in my mouth, sir, by the unqualified -- especially words such as those!

But thanks for the humor. First time I was told that joke, I fell right off my ole dinosaur.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM

Maybe he needs to get upwind o' ya, Rufe...

Tolt you I was educated in the Southland...

Stingy bee flies faster than a John Deer tractor can run...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM

Need to get upwind of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM

Don't see no hands up.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:14 PM

Ding dong Katrinagate is dead.

Cause poor old Bobert's tetched in the head.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:47 PM

No, Katrinagate ain't dead... It never has been dead...

Not all "gate's" end up in court with indcitments... Some end up in a far more damaging place and that is the hearts of folks who are dependent on leaders to tell the truth and BS them...

To that end, Katrinagate is a huge success... Katrina was the point that historians will point to when Bush no longer was trusted by the American people... And he hasn't been able to gain back the trust and for very real reasons...

He is now percieved as a liar who pumped out his chest and said "Hey, it's my job to protect the American people" but Katrina showed that those boasts were just lies... It really didn't have to be a hurricane... It could have been a terrorist attack... Bottom line, Bush wasn't ready to protect the American people...

Now even the Repubs in Congress are distancing themselves from him... That speaks volumes about the distrust of this man's ability to deliver much more than proclamations...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM

I never have understood exactly what it was that GWB did wrong.

This convoluted thread does not address it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:22 PM

Yes, it has, GUEST... You just either haven't read this thread 'er you just simply don't like to accepet reality... Probably a combination of the two....

Google up National Repsonse Plan and read what the Bush administration itself put together... No, it wasn't Congress... It was the Bush adminstration that formulated the National Response Plan... Do you know what it says??? I guess not...

Maybe before you go getting too righteously indignant maybe you need to reread this thread... After you have done this work if you still have questions then ask them in a more specfic manner that shows that you have a basic grasp of the situation...

No offense, but yer post just shows you lack the facts or you would have brought forth a rebuttal that was based on some level of understanding things lik, FEMA, DHS, the National Response Plan, etc...

But this does explain why you think this is a "convoluted thread"... You don't have a clue, do you??? So, yeah, it probably is convoluted to you...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:40 PM

Be careful Guest. If you don't agree with Bobert you will be declared stpuid and a Bushite.

I still can't understand why there are no people from New Orleans complaining about Bush, only people from elsewhere that know it all.

If Bush was the sole reason for the disaster, they would be here in droves.

Did they all drown or something? Google up the local disaster plans.

Here 'tis http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
except this one is new an improved. The original one dissapeared off their web site shortly after the hurricane for some strange reason. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM

No one from New Ortleans complaining about Bush, Rufe...

Care to expound of where you have come up with this assumption???

Oh, maybe you mean the wealthy white folks who are licking their chops at a chance to steal a city from the folks who used to inhabit it???

Yeah, Don't make much difference in how many m's you stick after the h it don't mean that you have stumbled onto some Holy Grail....

When you have addressed any of the basic positions that I put forth in my intial poats then you can tell me to Google up this or that... Heck, I'd even Google up "Mickey Mouse's Uncle" if you, or anyone would just please, please, please come up withj opne intellegent responst to the positions I took 450 posts ago....

Hey, this ain't rocket suregery here... You either understand the issues and are willing to debate them point by point or you ain't...

450 posts and all I get is, ahhhhhhhh, a big zip from those folks, Bushites, or not, who just think that if they put more m's after the h that those m's will scare me into throwin' up my arms and yellin' "Yeah, Bush is God. He did a fine job with Katrina..."

Not....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM

If they ain't here they can't answer. Is that so hard to understand?

Now 'splain why there ain't nobody from ground zero joinin' you in your nervous breakdown?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:51 PM

I ain't the one who's nervous...

And, ahhhh, just curious there, Rufe... Have you now appointed yerself the spokesman for the Ground Zero folks as well as the spokesman for the folks who live in New Orleans???

Geeze... Next thing ya know you'll be telling us that God talks to you evert night an' He has appointed you his spokesman???

BTW, seein' as you have appointed yerself the honoray spokesman for the consciouness of all Ground Zero folks, exactly which floor were you on when the towers came down???

Jus curious...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:18 PM

bobert, if Bullshit had the effect of gunpowder, you would have blown Mudcat to Hell long ago.

I bet you are of the opinion that GWB should have ordered an Evironmental Impact Study prior to the 2 500# bombs being dropped on that house in Iraq Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM

Oh, no; God forbid such niceties should stand in the way of our Shock and Awe.

Guest, the odor of BS here is coming from your own drawers.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM

Bobert is the self annointed boohoo for the folks at ground zero seein as there ain't any speakin' for themself.

What was that you said about lightin up a stink bomb here on the mudcat?

That's about your speed. Throwin things and running like hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:37 PM

No, Amos, that odor is your breath blowing back in your face. I am thinking that both you and bobert are major contributors to the BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM

Hey, Rufe the Goof, you seem to be the one who has tried to use 9/11 to divert attention away from the complete failures of the Bush administration in it's response to Katrina...

What you seem to miss, other than the point of this entire thread, is that after 9/11 it was Bush's responsibility to put in place systems to deal with the possibility of another disaster hitting the country... His initial idea of not the Departement of Homeland Security was created but here's the part that you don't seem to get... It was a department meaning that it fell in the organization chart in the executive branch... Do you know what that means, Rufe???

Well, I'm beginning to think that you don't... What it means is that the administartion of, the hiring for, the policies adopted, the systems developed all fall under the executive branch... In this case, that would be George Bush...

Think of it like this... He is the CEO and if the product either doesn't sell or id found out to be junk then the directors find another CEO...

(Bad example, BNobertm since these days the in thing is to have CEO's that loose money...)

Well, CEO or not, the president is in charge of hiring the right folks and making decisions about policies, financing, etc... That is what Bush did... Problem is that FEMA ended up being demoted from a cabinet position and was gutted... Sure, DHS, in theory, was going to take up some slack... Porblem is that neither FEMA nor DHS had claerly defined responsibilities after DHS was organized... Why???

Well, maybe the Bush administration was too focused on Iraq??? Bottom, line, they weren't doing their "homework" and they still aren't... In 2003 FEMA warned the Bushites that "its netweork for registering victims faced a 'crisis of unimaginable porportions' without an infusion of cash, but the Bush administartion has not requested the additional money and Congress has not provided it." (Wsahington Post, 6/4/06, "Ready, Set, Hurrincan")

And if another Katrina hit tomorrow the decisions regarding a federal response woud agin be a failure because there isn't one person in charge... We now have 5 PFO's, Princapl Federal Officers (and deputies) and a number of FCO's, Federal Coordinating Officers... Problem is that that even the White House has "reported that the PFO and FCO responsibilies still overlap". (ibid)

See, this is why Katrine continues to haunt Bush and his admionsitartion... ***His*** own National Response Plan calls fot the feds to act when a disater is of such magnitude that it swamps eithe local or state government yet the Bush folks haven't done either the heavy lifting to get it orgainzed properly or funded it sufficiently...

For a man who likes to boast that it's his job to protect the Amwerican people I'd say he is failing poorly at "his job"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:14 PM

And I can promise you the same scenario will raise its ugly head the next time the whole delta gets lambasted. The national emergency is so well handled that the bridge to Biloxi is STILL lying in smithereens and the shrimp fleet is still hanging from the trees like rusty welded Spanish moss on a bad night. But what the hell, the headlines have died down, so who cares, according to the Rove Policy book, what the ground truth is or how much national misery there is?

So, how come we can lose a billion dollars on a wild-ass adventure and not even fix up our own?

Seems to me one explanation is there isn't any "our own" involved as far as Bush is concerned. No-one rich enough to deserve Federal support.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM

Yeah, but it goes beyond campaign donators to the simple reality that Bush wasn't ready to really protect anyone at all, irregardless of how much these folks had put into the Bush treasury...

I mean, look at Washington, D.C.... On a good day it takes you an hour to get 30 miles into Virginia... This is with staggered work hours and HOV lanes... Now think of a disater hitting Wsahington, D.C. where everyone needed to to evacuated... It really doesn't matter why they needed to be evacuated 'cause it doesn't matter... Evaculating Washington, D.C. is impossible... Evacualting half the people is impossible... Evacuating 25% of the people is impossible... There are no roads out of Wsahington, D.C. to speak of that aren't allready crammed with traffic...

These are the kinds of issues that are beyond the scope of Arlington County, Va. or Montgomery County, Md. or the Washington D.C. government... This is where the country really needs to get beyond the huff'n-puff and get down to some serious work of creating ways to protect populations...

Somw might argue that folks livin' in population centers don't deserve this much attention but if we look at where the tax dollars come that run the country it is from urban areas so I dobn't believe that the nation should jus' throw up it's hands and say, "Shoot, it's too hard a job" like Bush and his folks have done...

These are some very challenging times that beg for folks who can walk the walk... Bush and his folks aren't up to doing much more than riling up their redneck base and cutting taxes to solve any problem out there...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM

This hole Bobert thred is one of hiz stink bombs. Trying to use 9/11 and Katrina to discredit his hated enemy, GWB.

What did GWB do to Bobert? He won when Bobert did ever thing he could think of to keep him from winnin, twicet.

Now Bobert's got a double hard on for him. In the mean time Bobert has benefited from the improved economy that GWB has brought us, the economy that fell apart under Slick Willy's watch beginnin' in early 2000. While hees benefitten he's a cryin his eyes out like a 2 day old baby calf.

Well ain't nobody and no thing perfect, Not Bobert, GWB, Slick Willy, The levees around a below sealevel city, gummint burocracys, nothin. (cept maybe Amos)

However when a crybaby feels like cryin he can constantly find faults with one person that he hates and wants to blame everthin on to make hisself feel better.

Have fun Bobert. Enjoy yourself cryin tha blues. You are one dem Mississippi blues man ain'tcha?

I got those hup two three four occupation Baghdad blues
An I hates old Georgie boy right down to his shoes

Take it from there


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:23 AM

Sorry, Rufe, but yer dead wrong... I have voted for Green Party candidates going back 2 decades now... The last Democtrat I voted for for president was Jimmy Carter...

And make that:

"An I hates Georgie's policies right down to his shoes..."

As fir this thread being a "stink bomb"??? Well, sure it is... I don't deny that Bush's handlin' of Katrina has left the smell of dead fish... Hey, that's the entire point of this thread...

As fir this great economy, the forclosure rate on homes is at an all time high??? Hmmmmmmm??? Could that mean that not everyone is seeing this economy as great or just folks deciding that they have grown tired trying to own a home and would prefer to run their hard earned bucks thru a shreader by payin' rent to Boss Hog???

But, hey, Rufe... I'm sure glad you is all comfy even though the middle class is getting squeezed...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:03 AM

Rufus:

What is your opinion of the national debt?

How about the international trade imbalance?

Oh, and the budget deficit? How's that strike you -- a good idea?

Slick Willie, as you may recall, actually balanced the budget, and was readying up to reduce the debt.

Perhaps you enjoy the notion of borrowing money in order to go to war.

I seriously doubt whether Slick Georgie has contributed to any growth in the economy.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM

Did you vote Green to defeet Bush?

Dem forclosures is due to greedy folks gettin arms to buy overpriced homes thinkin they could flip em and pocket some cash.

Weeeel now that the arm has 'em by the 'nads and they caint sell them white elephants, they is tossin the keys back to the bank.

Sounds like a lesson learned. Now those low interst rates has run up the prices o homes and the taxes on usens that stayed put.

Ain't none of that good and Ah dont like the defisit or the balanse of trade neither.

But who is it thets buyin all that furrin made stuff includin oil?

And who is it that voted for the war and who approved the money????

You can cry an backpeddel all you want to but ain't nothin goin to change histry.

IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION

107th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. J. RES. 114
October 10, 2002

JOINT RESOLUTION
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations';

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations; Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people; Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq; Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (1991), repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 (1991), and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949 (1994);

Whereas in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1), Congress has authorized the President `to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677';

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1),' that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and `constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,' and that Congress, `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688';

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to `work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge' posed by Iraq and to `work for the necessary resolutions,' while also making clear that `the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable'; Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;

Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--
(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS. (a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).
(b) SINGLE CONSOLIDATED REPORT- To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM

Amos, Amos, Amos, Slick Willie did not balance the budget, the new Rpublican majority, put into place several years after WJC's elction, balanced the budget. Slick Willie as the Prez simply gets credit for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM

RIght.

So he does.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:54 AM

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The former emergency management chief who quit amid widespread criticism over his handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina said he received an e-mail before his resignation stating President Bush was glad to see the Oval Office had dodged most of the criticism.

Michael Brown, former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Friday that he received the e-mail five days before his resignation from a high-level White House official whom he declined to identify.

The e-mail stated that Bush was relieved that Brown -- and not Bush or Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff -- was bearing the brunt of the flak over the government's handling of Katrina. (Watch how Brown fell from grace -- 4:00)

The September 2005 e-mail reads: "I did hear of one reference to you, at the Cabinet meeting yesterday. I wasn't there, but I heard someone commented that the press was sure beating up on Mike Brown, to which the president replied, 'I'd rather they beat up on him than me or Chertoff.' "

The sender adds, "Congratulations on doing a great job of diverting hostile fire away from the leader."

CNN has been unable to verify the authenticity of the e-mail, but the White House designation "eop.gov" is part of the sender's e-mail address, indicating it came from the Executive Office of the President.

A White House spokesperson said in an e-mail to CNN: "This is an old rumor that surfaced months ago and we're not commenting on it. This story has already been reported and I have heard nothing at all that would substantiate it."

The e-mail was provided to CNN on the condition that the sender's name be redacted. Brown said only that the sender was a "good friend of the president," who has been with the president "a long time."

Brown said did he, too, considers the sender a friend.

While acknowledging that part of a political appointee's job is to "take the sword" for the president, Brown said he has grown weary of Chertoff making him a scapegoat for FEMA's failures in the wake of Katrina.

"I'm not willing to take that sword for Michael Chertoff," Brown said.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM

CNN has been unable to verify the authenticity of the e-mail, but the White House designation "eop.gov" is part of the sender's e-mail address, indicating it came from the Executive Office of the President.

It looks as if CNN has not the slightest idea how easy it is to fake an email address.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:14 PM

Whetehr or not this e-mail actually exists is of no significance... It is clean that Brownie was set up to take the fall... Problem is that since then he ain't been the lap dog scapegoat that Bush would have preferred...

Too bad for Bush that Brown wasn't the architect behind Iraqmire 'er Bush could have killed two birds with one stone...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:58 PM

..But...how do you KNOW Brownie wasn't the real policy wonk?

LOL!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

Nah, Brownie ain't mo dummy, Amos... Scapegoat, yeah, but no dummy...

Plus, if Brownie had even said the word "Iraq" 'round Bush, Bush would have pinned Iraqmire on him...

No, Iraqmire seems to have that Bush signiture to it... You know, like everything else he has ever attempted to do...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:18 PM

Whar's then Nawlins folks that want to put all the blame on Bush?

Bobert proudly stuck out his chest and said "I am gonna speak for them dummies down there cause they cant figure it out themselves"


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:24 PM

Author: Bobert (---.dialsprint.net)
Date:   06-05-03 20:10

Don't worry nuthin 'bout dem cats, Dog. Most of 'em ain't worth a good chase. They get their noses up in the air 'bout folks funnin'. Yeah you want to talks about the origins os Scotish folk music fir hours upon end, then that's the joint fir ya. When I first started going over there I'd mess with em' and they'd get all upset and jump up an' down but these days they they ignore me like I'm Casper, 'er something. But I still drop by and mess with 'em jus' fir fun.

Now, don't gey me wrong. Some is purdy cool, ahhh,, like Amos, Little Hawk, Bee-Dubya, Kendall, Jerry Rassmussen, Nicole, CarolC and JtS, but most of collectively add up to a big ol, ahhhh, snore! Except the big jerks like Teribus, troll and DougR, who think that George Junior is God....

Enough, let me go on over there, light a stink bomb and skeee-adddle.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM

Gol danged. Rufe.... Now you've become a cyber-stalker... I', flattered... Sho nuff am... Geeze, I notices that someone broke into a bag of my trash... That weren't you was it, Rufer??? Hey, if you want my trash, come take the whole bag off with ya and don't just leave the stuff all over the front yard... That was real neaty of ya'....

An', hey, by now you oughtta know the way I is so when I wrote that stuff over at Tweedsblues, hey, I was jus'funnin'... Like who cares??? I say the same crap 'round here...

Don't change nuthin'... Bush blew Katrina... Yeah, I know, had Katrina come 'long durin' Clinton's years it would have been the other wat 'round...

I jus' call 'um as I sees 'um...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 12:11 AM

"Clinton's years it would have been the other wat 'round"

Did ya see this in a dream or did ya see it in your goobered up glasses?

I don think you was funnin at all, You jus a troll and you laugh at anybody that disagrees wif your rediculus position on things.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

No, Rufer, I laugh at trolls who would rather make rediculous statements rather than come up with any reasonable rebuttal to the charges I have made about Bush and his administartion's handling of Katrina...

Here we are approaching 500 post in this thread and as of yet no one Bush apologist has done much more than present bumper sticker length rebuttals or attack me personally... Normal behavior for folks who are clueless, I might add...

Now perhaps, Rufe the Goof, you'd like to just reread the first post on this thread which lays out my arguments and rebutt them point by point... I'd love for you or any other Bushite to do that... That would, at least, be a starting point...

And also check out the date of the post... Hmmmmmmmmm??? See, the story was allready there that early for anyone willing to do the homework... Yeah, alot of what I put forth became common knowledge much later... But the story was in place very early...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 AM

bobert, you just won't listen to opposing facts. You want to think you do it bigger, better, first. Runaway egos are very destructive as most times they cause one to ignore the real stuff.

For example, "Rovegate". Go back and read what you said and what several others told you, "No conviction!!!!!!!!"

Why not do that before you come up with some flimsy excuse. We expect that and realize you are not going to admit you were wrong.

Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM

First of all, GUEST< other than your guys placing the balme on the Mayor and governor, what are these supposed "opposing facts"? Someone tried to bring up something about a tow company wanting to chrage $1000 a car but that ain't got nuthin' to do with nuthin'...

No, GUEST, that ain't got nuthin' to do with *my* ego... You would love to shift it to me but it ain't about me... Never has been... I laid out an argument and if you are willing to wade thru hundreds of posts that either attack me or blame everything on Ray Nagan, you won't find any "opposing facts"... Heck, you won't even find any opposing arguments, you know, like rebuttals...

May you, GUEST, would like to the the first Bushite to actually defend Bush's administration's handling of Katrina???...

Nah, didn't think so so go on back to trying to make this about my ego or me... That's all you have when yer delt a very weak hand...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:58 PM

Hey guest:

Bobert has said hunerds of times that anybody that dissagrees wif him is a Bushite. That's how he proves his cockeyed theory that everythin is Bushes fault.

How does anybody get anythin thru that thick skull except with a RPG to the brain?

You can't. Bobert says he's right has always been right and will always be right.

Tha truth is he's just a troll by his own andmssion. "let me go on over there, light a stink bomb and skeee-adddle"

Thay says weed does permanent damage to the brain and Bobert is tha proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:47 PM

Hey, RUfus:

I doubt you can find one place Bobert has said any such a thing.

Bobert has a tendency to settle things based on data which he can point to. If you wanna argue with him, instead of going in like a puffer-fish, all hot air and pointy spnes, go in with some data and see what kind of response you get.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM

Let me conjure up a paralel to Bobert's lame brain argumint.

If Bobert declared Fired chicken makes people fat I would not dissagree but ifn Bobert was to ingore and refuse to admit that anything else makes folks fat, that would make him wrong.

Of course Bobert would declare that anybody claimin that anythin other than fired chicken is to blame is a fired chicken defender.

He would esplain that none of the fired chicken defenders can prove he is wrong. He would point out that a large number of posts proves his point.

Well I could esplain that if'n all the fired chicken was done away wif, Folks would still get fat but Bobert wouln't answer except wit a repition of what he already said.

Truth is, this is another stink bomb that he has fun with.

Now is you, Amos, going to come out public like and say Bush is or ain't the onliest cause of the problems wif Katrina? Or is you goin to take some twisty path sayin that nobody kin prove what Bobert said is wrong?

An kin either one of youse nitwits say also what would have happened if FEMA wus allowed to stay an indpendint agincy?

An why aint folks from Nawlins weighin in here with their 2 cents and agreein wif Bobert? I done axed that serval times an it gits ingored. Just a bunch of denials and pufferfish stuff stead of an answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:35 PM

First of all, the only Catter who I know who lived in New Orleans when Katrina hit is Pappa Gator... Not too sure where P-Gator is now but he did stop at my house fir dinner on the way down to work on his house... That was back a few months ago...

Other than him, I don't think there's any Catters from New Orleans...

As fir FEMA's position as an quasi-independent agency like it used to, I'm all for that... But that doesn't change the fact the, cabinet position ot not, FEMA was stripped of staff and funding by Bush at the very same time that Bush was boasting of having the American people protected??? And ther Republican controled Senate has called for FEMA to be renamed (who cares) but also given greater resources... Bush opposes moving FEMA out from under DHS... So what you, Rufe, have suggested (or I think you suggested it..) is something that Bush is against...

But I agree and have stated in this thread that FEMA needs to reoraginized and ***funded*** like it was back in the Clinton years... I feel quite strongly about this since I do own one commercial property that is in a flood plane and pay flood insurance to FEMA... As do hundreds of thousands of other folks... That money comes out of my pocket and goes to supposedly protect my investment against flood damage... Maybe you aren't award of this little fact, Rufe???

As for the stink-bomb comment, you still haven't figured out that I will have fun with people when it's time to have fun but when it comes down to discussing policies, I can be dead serious...

You might find it intersting that I was one of the orgainizers of a Main Street program in Leesburg, Va. when I owned a business there and was also the promotions comitee chairman that involved me havin' to deal with all kinds of folks in order to get things done...

This hardly squares with yer generalization of me as some half crazed pot head... Might of fact, I come from a family of community activists and have been involved with volunteer organizations going back into the early 60's...

Hardly matches yer generalization...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:45 PM

Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate? (ignored by Bobert)

Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that( "life is good" is a former Bobert quote)

"roll the clock back where as head of FEMA I could act without having been so-ordered by the Secretary of GHomaland Security who is aewaitin' his marching orders from the president" (another Bobert quote)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:07 PM

So, what's yer point, Woody???

I don't think there is any argument on either side of the isle that FEMA used to do a better job when it had: 1.) authority, 2.) staffing and 3.) resources...

The Republican conrtolled Seanate has said as much in recommending that FEMA (renamed or not) be given a larger role in the DHS... Larger role in bureaucracies = more money... You can't have a larger role if you are working witha bare-bones staff and few resources...

As for the quotes, other than the usual typos, I'll stand behind them both...

Apparently like is good for you, Woody, and that's just peachy... Makes me all warm and fuzzy knowin' that you are one of the 31% who is doing well under Bush...

And yeah, I think it is obvious, especially in 20/20 hindsight that FEMA would have been in a better postion after Katrina if Michale Brown didn't have to wait for the order to act...

Maybe, you are one of the few folks left on the planet that is so utterly in-love with Bush that thinks that he should make every danged decision, to corral all the powers and to be almighty in the running of every nut-'n-bolt of the government??? Hmmmmmmm??? The guy has taken more time away from the job than any president in history and, if I read you correctly, you want Bush to be the only guy who can get folks to act in the event of a catastrophy???

Is that yer position, Woody???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM

bobert, I can see where you is a wonderful human bean, coming from a long line of family activists (60's) I wonder why we did not run into you you in Biloxi , New Orleans or a couple other places since 9-02? Well, maybe it was because you were home smokin' some cheap shit and telling lies about the situation and lies about how great you are.

If you think you are foolin' everyone, well...........you are not.

You are worth a couple chuckles now and then.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM

Still tryin' ta backpedal on the stink bomb fun eh? I sorta take folks at their word and call em as I sees 'em.

When you talked to Poppagator what was his idys on "Katrinagate"?

Now who wanted FEMA un organised? Who wanted to mess with somethin that wasn't broke? Dontch think that had a part in Katrinagate? What do fust responder an secon responder meas?

Still sportin' a pony tail? Is life good like you said?

An one las thing, Who's responsible for evacuatin' folks and who decides an declares when they responsible ones is overwhlemed?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM

GUEST,

You, sir (or mam), are a jerk...

Why not step out from behind yer little cowardly ambush nest and tell us what you've done in yer life..

You won't becuase you ain't done jack...

Have a nice little cowardly life...

Coward, washrag, crybaby, creep...

Bye


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:33 PM

bobert, did I step on some toes? I never said I have done Jack - you are the one always trying to convince others how wonderful you are.

I simply said I d can't remember meeting you in Biloxi, NO and a couple other places. Where were you, by the way?

Oh yea, the name calling is classic, sorta' like the 3rd grade.

Again, a couple more laughs from the great one. And how do you know that I "havn't done jack"? Man, those toes must really sting!


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM

When one cain't give an answer with out incriminatin hisself he has to get all threatinin' like and callin people cowards. Is that how you gets things done in yore home town?

I ain't never said I liked Bush. You autiomatically accuze everybody that dissagrees with you of bein a Bushite. It ain't so but it makes you feel holy or somethin as if it proves you is right.

When ever Bush's approval ratin' goes down you celebrates an gloats over it. Whenever it goes up you say So What? Ifn we nabbed Bin Laudin tomorry you would say So What? Now don't hurt him or any thin. Give him a lawyer and don't execute him no matter what he done.

Would you call him a activist?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:06 AM

Bobert is correct in characterizing "Guest"'s posts as cowardly. It is typical fear-driven behaviour to make unkind remarks from behind a safe curtain of anonymity. "Guest" should be ashamed.

Rufus: If you don't care for Bush, or for his policies, come out and say so. If you do, come out and say that. Be straight, be brave, and speak your own truth plainly. That's all Bobert does, except when certain pizen-mongers get under his skin.

All this rhetorical flaming around doesn;t do either side much good, I guess.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

A "safe curtain of anonoymity"?????


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM

Oops - "fear driven behavior"? Amos, you can do better than that. I am a secure individual who, while not intentionally causing it, can really get amused at a "bobert" who, when confronted with plain fact, can only resort to name calling. Rufus has him figured out.

"Anonymity"? I have no idea what an Amos, a bobert or even a Rufus is and what matter is that? I will never meet these people, I do try to treat them with the respect deserved (key word "deserved") and see no reason to get one's Boxers in a wad while engaging in a forum such as this one. Not a reflection on 'Mudcat', it is just one of thousands, I am sure.

And Amos, bobert apparently says a lot for effect. I can not tell if he is a Bullshitter, plays Devils Advocate (that is a cowardly way) or is simply ill informed. I mean no disrepect to him by those comments. Neither do I intend this to be an apology. He apparently does his best to bluff on occasion and to badger on others. I doubt very much that he would admit to an erroneous statement when directly confronted, rather, go with "coward, crybaby, creep",   
ad infitum. And, there is nothing to be ashamed of, why don't some here go with "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen?"

With that said, 'bobert, those toes must still be smarting, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:44 AM

Ummmmmmmmm, would someone explain to me how if I had been in NO or Bolixa would change the arguments that I laid down in the first poat of this thread???

Or how me being there or not relieves Bush of the F he and his boys have gotten for his handling of the Katrina???

Seems a couple folks here continue to think that attackin' me will somehow make Bush's failures okay... Well, if that is so then why isn't Tim Russert callin' to have me on his show??? Duhhhhhh...

Bobert

(still waiting for one danged even semi-intellegent rebuttal to charges I made 490 some posts ago...)


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:34 AM

I am still waiting for a honest anser to things like who is responsible for evacuations etc. Ya jest keep skipin over em and keep repeatin "still waiting for one" an then your number gets higher so you think that makes you all high an mitey.

Anser this if you kin. How many times has you been told that ya ain't gonna get any defense of yore hated enemy GWB??

All yore gonna get is people tryin to say that it warnt all hiz fault.

Yore stink bomb didn't work jest like yore uranium stink bomb and your new Washinton Memorial troll ain't workin.

Is you a musician or a stand up comic?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

A recent article indicates fraud and abuse of Katrina funds up to 1.2 billion dollars. More than enough to save NPR!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM

You iz right as rain Amos but who need NPR? I listens to Cspan.

Id like to add that the money was stold by crooked people not FEMA and if FEMA was left alone an independint this might not have happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:02 AM

Amos, probably true but there are other frauds and abuses going on to save us all!


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM

Oh yes, bobert, the point is had you been down there you might not be clueless as to what really happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM

Let me ax them ignored questions one at a time Bobert.

What do Poppagator say bout Katrinagate?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM

Rufus:

The original post that began this thread addresses mpst of your flaming rhetoric. Poppagator's remarks on the Katrina incident were mostly limited to his personal misadventures, as I recall. You could PM him if you took out a handle here.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM

Hey, did you get your share of the $1.4 billion given out so far on fraudulent Katrina-Rita claims?

The feds are talking about some 7000 prosecutions for fraud, but most claims probably never will be investigated, chances are good to get a chunk of taxpayer money.

The Bush-Chummy-Rummie-etc. administration wins by a landslide as the most inept in USA history.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:41 PM

Well, rufus, you keep asking question that I have ****fully**** answered... You can't just jump in the middle of threads and expect to sound intellegent... I've answer the "evacuation" question at least a half a dozen times... I'm not going to support yer laziness in not takin' the time to bring yerself up tyo date on this thread... Now, tell ya what, after you have found my answer, let me know what I said to prove you actually spent the time to bring yerself up to date...

I've also answered the P-Gator question **** to the best of my knowledge****... BTW, what does P-Gator have to do with this.... He doesn't work for Bush or FEMA... Last I heard from him he was spilttin' his time takin' care of his elderly mom in New Jersey and working on his house in NO but...

... no matter waht he's doing, expalin why this matters, will ya???

Seems that you are terribly locked in obn stuff that don't mean nuthin' to nuthin' to Bush's failures which have been highlighted by Katrina as the protector of the American people...

Now, hows 'bout finding the "evacuation" asnwer and prove to me that you found it and maybe we can talk about the position I have laid out in regards to "evacuation"... No hints either...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:55 PM

Amos, I thought Poppagator left before Katrina hit and did not return for weeks. What were his "misadventures"?

And just one more time, in every case, the State and Local governments are resposible for the evacuation prior to the storm.
Giving a mandatory evacuation order on Sunday as did the Mayor was a bit late.

But I am not going to try to convince bobert of this, he and his moldy stash box will do as they please. That is okay, I just consider the source. And yea, I have read "The Plan".


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:43 PM

Now in this here thread the fust mention of who is in charge of evacuations I sees posted by Guest A:

"In every aspect of it, the stipulation is that the first responders, read local and state government here, are responsible for the for the first evacuation and rescue attempts. Don't you think it might be a little late for someone to respond from a 1000 miles away.
If you find this to not be to your liking, then please quote us the section and paragraph from the National Response plan that dictates otherwise. It could be there but my copy doesn't reflect it."

Didja answer that one? Nope you jus take to callin people stupid and callin them name like this:

"This is the point I've made over abnd over but these knothead Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that...;

Sure, life is good... I have provided GUEST A a source to find out just how good my life is but yet, when I point out the4 dfriggin' truth to either GUEST A or Old Guy, all I get is "Life is good and yer wro9ng, Bobert" crap throwed back at me...

Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers...

They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true????

Freud would have a field day with these two..."


Scuse me mr right reverand Bobert but you aint answered the question yit and it is because you caint without blowin away yore assertion that Bush is tha problem with everthin.

Now here is another shinin example of how you don't answer:
You said "I've also heard from P-Gator who has been back to his house in N. O. and the stories are very similar"

I axed you about what Poppagator had to say and you gets all puffed up and said:
"I've also answered the P-Gator question **** to the best of my knowledge****... BTW, what does P-Gator have to do with this.... He doesn't work for Bush or FEMA... Last I heard from him he was spilttin' his time takin' care of his elderly mom in New Jersey and working on his house in NO but... no matter waht he's doing, expalin why this matters, will ya???"


The reason it matters is like I done said sevral times befo in this thread, but maybe you aint even readin you own thread, is if GWB is the sole reason fo these here problems surely the actul residence of ground zero would be up in arms even wus than you but they ain't and I am a wunderin why.

Now how bout stead of wasting so much disk space with your puffery, name callin an evasive tackticks you just anser the danged questions? Bye tha way you is up to 506 now. Maybe now ya can get on O'rielly and you and him can try avoidin his questions on National TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:50 PM

Q, it has nothing to do with the ineptness of GWB and others.
The fraud is due to the absolute cheating and greedy mentality of a lot of Americans. You have seen nothing yet and when you do, give credit where credit is due - a segment of America that thinks greed and cheating is the American way. GWB and the Feds were trying to help. They put too much trust in a large segment of the welfare population.

And when other fraud comes to the surface, you will find that it will represent another segment, the something for nothing group and not a part of the welfare community, who are screwing the American taxpayer more than the welfare people could ever dream of!


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:09 PM

An heres another one you can claim you can dance around an claim you has answered:

Who decides when the locals (first responder) has done been overwhelmed?

I guess it jus don't matter of they piss away two days goin back and forth on whether it is a forced evacuation or not. It only matters when the second responders cain't help right away cause the first responders screwed up so bad.

Yeah, them second responders are the bad guys. You cain't blame anythin on the first responders cause they is so stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM

LOL, Rufe...

Allison Young, reporter for Knight Ritter and author of an article entitled "Chertoff Delayed Federal Response, Memo Shows"... These are her words and she makes her living reseraching the stuff that neither you nor I have the time to research:

"Well, the entire response has been intersting, hearing all of the finger pointing about the lack of command and control on the ground in the hurricane zone during Katrina. In January of this year, the Department of Haomeland Security unveiled their National Response Plan. This was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-Septmeber 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says that this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane.

What's surprising is, when you listen to the testimony yesterday by the former FEMA director, it seems to be in conflict with what the pane calls for in a catastrphe, where locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take a proactive- take proactive steps to protect the lives of of citizens. And it says that all the standard procedures fro requiring requests can be waived in these kinds of situations, and while federal asuthorities are supposed to notify. if they can, and coordinate with staes, it says, in the plan, that the coordination process should not delay or impede the rapid mobilization and deployment of critical federal resources...."

(Interview with Aliaon Young, Septmber 28, 2005, Pacifica Radio)

Now to Governor Blanco:

"Among the more that 100,000 pages of newly released records, which ranged from after-action reports to hand-scrawled notes written at the height of the storm, are memoes showing Blanco frustrated and angered over delays in evacuations and the slow delivery of promised federal aid.

'We need everything you've got,' Blanco is quoted in a memo as telling President Bush on August 29, the day Katrina made landfall. But despite assurances from the federal Emergency Management Agency that 500 buses were 'standing by,', Blanco's aides were compelled to to take action when the buses failed to materialize, documents show...

(There's mush more in a Washington Post story of December 4, 2005 written by Jody Warrick, Spencer S. Hsu and Anne Hull entitled "Blanco Releases Katrina Records")

Hmmmmmmm, Rufe???

These are some purdy danged good journalist who make their liovings doing the hard research... Hey, if you want to jusy go and call them liars, hey, it's a fee country but...

...seems like the ball is in your court...

Ahhhh, as fir P-Gator... What yer fascination with the poor guy??? Like does he, as one home owner, represent the heartbeat of NO??? I just don't understand yer logic in constantly bring him up as if he were the second coming... Maybe, while yer mulling over what I have written here you will elaborate on his importance in Bush's response to Katrina??? Por favor...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...