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Origins: Irish Sea Shanties
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST Date: 01 May 10 - 06:00 PM During the battle of Trafalgar, Admiral Nelson thanked God for the Irish tars. I saw quoted in a museum years ago. We know for certain that at least 21% of the enlisted were classified as Irish. That would leave out the many more of Irish blood through emigration to Britain before. Point being the Irish influence on the Royal Navy is a untold story. Ironically many of them Sailors were forced to join, many being conscripted after the 1798 rebellion. The sea shanty as we know it in common modern sense, in the English speaking context, is without question of a Irish recipe. But while Nelson was indeed English, according to the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll, just over half the able seamen at Trafalgar were English (53 per cent) followed by the Irish (21 per cent). Although many more may have gone to England and been recruited there. Ireland had a much bigger population compared with England and Scotland http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+%26+heritage/war+%26+conflict/pre-20th+century+conflict/art32693
Thanks. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly of) Portsmouth Date: 12 Aug 08 - 11:08 AM I'll be there, Barry, so you'll hear it for sure. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,spb-cooperator Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:54 PM The country of origin of a shanty depends very much on the nationality of the shantyman from whom the shanty was collected. There are little or no records of who 'made' the shanties, particularly as the words were by and large improvised, and as such a word would often reflect the experiences of the shantyman. Because of this, there are a number of shanties that have variations according to where the shantyman lived/worked. There are also a large number of lost sailorised popular songs of the time which because opf their ephemara;l nature were never collected. The chances are there wer ea large number of 'Irish' variants that were never collected, but it would be possible for someone who knows enough about Irish seafaring history to derive versions of shantues that an Irish shantyman may have sung. 18 years ago I tried a siilar exercise adapting Whip Jamoboree as it might have been sung by a Lancasrwr Shantyman. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Liam's Brother Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM Sallen, You ask for shanties "coming out of Ireland." One source for shanties that were extant in Ireland during the second quarter of the 20th century is Sam Henry's Songs of the People. Find that book and you will see that it contains a few shanties (i.e. maritime work songs). I surmise from your e-mail address that you live in Britain. Your best bet might be, next time you're in London, to stop by Cecil Sharp House and browse through the library. All the best, Dan Milner |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: MartinRyan Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM Captain W. H. Angel calls it a hoisting shanty: Can I check again - Who is this? Is it an error for Capt. Whall of "Sea Songs and Shanties"? I see the song in his book - but not the comments quoted by CFS, at first sight. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM It's a halyard shanty Peter. The clue is in the "haul" that comes after every other line (another clue). Hopefully we'll get to hear you sing it this Saturday when the Tall Ships pull into Portsmouth (NH, USA) if you're going to be there. You'll also find a version of this in Terry's "The Shanty Book, Part 1". Charlie, Colcord has a pretty close version of what you have with the same chorus & structure. She says it from the Music Halls but then says Terry says that the music hall originally borrowed it from an older shanty, saying his grandfather used to sing it. It's in Terry's part 2 which I don't have, it's called "The Shaver". Barry |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly of) Portsmouth Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM Hey all, I've been working on the version of "Wild Goose Nation" that Severn posted here a while ago. I've got the Lou Killen recording that's referenced, but I'm curious if anyone knows the origins of the song and what type of shanty it was used as. (I'm assuming it's a pull, but would love to get verification.) Ever on the quest... Peter |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:21 PM The shanty "Poor Paddy" seems to be a descendent of the old song "Paddy Works on the Railway," a version of which is in the DT, and "Paddy Works on the Erie" (in Lomax, etc.). "In eighteen hundred and forty one, I put my corduroy breeches on, I put my corduroy breeches on, to work upon the railway." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: MartinRyan Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:11 PM Not to mention Charley..... Apologies |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: MartinRyan Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:59 PM Cahrlie W.H. Angel? Who he? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Nov 05 - 12:13 PM Sigh! It would be nice if the original guest would come back and clarify what is wanted. However, we can all have fun anyway, and learn more in the process. Here's a song from C. Fox Smith's A BOOK OF SHANTIES: POOR PADDY (Pumping or Capstan Shanty) In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-one I did as plenty more have done My corduroy breeches I put on To work upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-two I joined up with an Irish crew, I got a job of work to do To work upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-three I sailed away across the sea, I sailed to North Amerikee To work upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-four I landed on Columbia's shore, I had a pickaxe, nothing more, To work upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-five When Daniel O'Connell was alive, I thought it time no more to strive To work upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! In eighteen-hundred-and-sixty-six I said good-bye to spades and picks, I chucked my job and carried bricks But not upon the railway…the ra-ailway… I'm weary of the ra-ailway, Oh poor Paddy he works on the railway! Notes by CFS, p. 56: "This is no doubt an example of a shore song converted into a shanty, and for that reason some of the purists exclude it from their pages. But since – as I have suggested elsewhere – the likelihood is that nearly every shanty under the sun, if the truth were known, comes under the same category, and since, moreover, 'Poor Paddy' has certainly been long forgotten except as a shanty, and has been for years a universal favourite afloat, I take leave to accord a place here to his Odyssey. Captain W. H. Angel calls it a hoisting shanty: but every other writer I have consulted classes it with the capstan songs, and its form seems to indicate that it was so used as a general rule." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:45 AM Hi emara, you're dead on about splitting hairs. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:13 AM Tough question, your right about that Charlie, hope to see you in Portsmouth. The two shanties "Across the Rockies" & "Across the Western Ocean" from whence came & "Leave Her Johnny" seems to have some origins during the potato famine in the 60's Whall believes, the Western Ocen version is the earlier one from the 50's (so?) & Whall's has the chorus as "Join the Irish Army". So were the Irish immigrants influencing Irish sailors or Liverpool-Irish or English or American or others? "Clear Away the Track & Let the Bulgine Run" Hugill says of it the tunes close to "the Irish song "Shule Agra" but the words show of Negro origins says Hugill), so what's up with this one? Was it crossed in the gulf ports, yes. But did the Irish know the tune & adapt a familar tune to the words they heard or did this version come out of the cotton stowers who where Black & White and threw the whole mix into the washer adding a litte english in there & this is what came out clean? "Gals of Dublin Town" the alternate title "Harp Without the Crown" is an Irish phrase & the tune's a mix of the Irish "The Wearing of the Green" in verse & in chorus the American "The Bonnie Blue Flag" which it's tune shares history with the song "Irish Jaunting Car" (written, I believe, by an Irishman or an Irish American from the South). Note that many Irish fought in the Civil War & it was very popular with, according to Hugill, the Liverpool Irish sailors & the armies fighting for the North & the South. How much may be Irish-American-Liverpool or English, I don't know but it seems to be taken as predominantly Irish but to what degree do the other influences affect it. "The Holy Ground Once More" the Irish version was a pretty popular shanty among the Irish fisherman of the Cork & Cobh waterfronts as well as deep water sailors but then again so was the Welsh shanty "Old Swansea Town Once More" of which there are Scottish & Irish versions. Who had more influence on which. "Larry Marr" a capstan & a pump shanty (& also as a forebitter/fo's'le) also called "The 5 Gallon Jar". Hugill says he's certain that it's of Irish origin. Hugill's source (of 1 version) believes that as a forebitter it's older than the shanty but as a shanty he believes the chorus is American & probably Afro American at that. But what if the shanty is the older, then how much would the percentage of influences change it to be less Irish than thought? "Liverpool Judies" or known as "Roll Bullies Roll" who again Hugill says is of Irish origin & dates to the famine but says of a version "Row Julia Row" may have been a rowing shanty used by whalermen. Which is the older version? If the rowing version is older does that shanty have other influences? "Paddy Lay(Get)Back" is usually assumed as an Irish casptan shanty or forebitter that dates to the Packet Trade & then was used in the stowing/loading of cotton loading in the Gulf & Southern seacoasts so there's is the influence of Afro-American , how much, I don't know There there's the tune to the verses that very close to the Swedish pump shanty the "Albertiina" which I have as coming from the Baltic Trade from a old Cape Horner who sang an English version and served as a cabin boy around the WWII. So again there are variables. "The Rambling Irishman" is Irish, it's about the sea & immigration but it's not a shanty, it may have been sung at sea but used for work. So I guess it amounts to whither or not you're looking for a strictly Irish shanty with no other influences or a shanty that's an Irish version or one that was favored by the Liverpool Packet Rats or some New York Packet Rats that past it along. I don't have any answers for you but maybe you could clarify what exactly you want. It's a hell of a lot easier to ask for one the Irish sailors favored & did sing or ones that are heavily influenced by the Irish or one that was snatched by the Irish & adapted by Irish. Then on the other hand a lot of the Irish packet rats & other Irish sailor that had been to sea for any amount of time would have been engaged in an international society made up of sailors from every where whom had all come together speaking & singing one language, sailor's speech. A fine example would be; run away slaves & black freemen mingled in with the sailors the sailor excepted for the most anyone willing to walk the walk & talk the talk. So speaking, walking & talking like a sailor was their ticket. Now there's another example for another topic, how much did Afro Caribbean, or Afro American or the watermen from the Carolinas, Georgia South Islands & the gulf ports affect so called American, a lot more than they've been credited for. Sorry for this being so long. I hope this has been a little help in you quest. Barry |
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Subject: ADD: Wild Goose Nation From: Severn Date: 18 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM A favorite of mine to sing is THE WILD GOOSE NATION I'm a rambling son of the Wild Goose Nation Haul away, haul away, haul away, hold hard And I left my wife on the old plantation Haul away, me boys, haul away On my very first day out of the Wild Goose Nation I began to to lament and regret my situation For it's "Pat, do this and that and mind your station 'Cause you're a lousy son of the Wild Goose Nation 'Course I turned around and gave 'em all a pastin' For I am a true son of the Wild Goose Nation Yes, I'm a rambling son of the Wild Goose Nation Now I'm off to Amerikay to get an education. ...Well it seems like an Irish "Take This Job And Shove It" fantasy. Maybe it's just directly translated from the ancient Geecian. Try announcing it as the Wild Goose National Anthem and see who stands up! Lou Killen recorded a version on "Sailors, Ships & Chanteys" (Knockout KO-03) ....And for a whole CD of nautical related songs to help you, try Dan Milner's "Irish Ballads & Songs Of The Sea" (Folk Legacy CD-124) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,emara Date: 18 Nov 05 - 07:58 PM The saint kind of makes the point fairly strongly. He came here to Cape Clea,r off the Cork Coast, and said the firstmass in Ireland, but he had changed his name on the way across to Ciaran. Whip or Whit Jamboree mentions our island of Cape Clear, but its one of the many crossing the atlantic songs, so fromwhich end does it come. I suppose splitting hairs it might not be a shanty but a bit of a fo'cas'le song. I know a man in his eighties from Schull, on our mainland, who says when he crossed the Atlantic in his early days it was difficult to find a ship without two or three "Capers" on board, but there seems to be no tradition of shanties left here. I noticed a mention of songs in the Irish language, further up, any one know sources, preferably audio? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,Cornish Jack o' the Mudcat Date: 18 Nov 05 - 06:44 PM The Old Horse? The Dead Horse Shanty? Poor Old Horse? The 'oss, The 'oss. No! No! Come off it! 'es ours 'e is. Bit of a nerve! Good mind to send St. Piran back. Jack o' the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Nov 05 - 04:48 PM Very few are explicit;y Irish--The Harp Without a Crown Billy O'Shea being prime exceptions. The Irish influence on shanties, though, is all-pervasive and extremely important. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Nov 05 - 03:30 PM Any shanty that mentions sailing out of Liverpool is an Irish Sea Shanty. The Mersey does indeed flow into the Irish Sea... What? What? I thought that's what you meant! Cheers :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:25 AM The Cruise Of The Calabar. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Dead Horse Date: 18 Nov 05 - 05:16 AM I just wrote out a mini thesis in reply to this, but damn pooter crashed!!! Anyway, what IanC said, in spades. I am afraid that James N Healey was sticking his neck out somewhat in describing those shanties as being Irish. They may have had Irish influence, been popular with Irish crews, been sung in an Irish accent for amusement, or been sung to an Irish tune or with lyrics from an Irish song, but to attribute them with Irish parentage is to ignore the fact that shanties are international by their very nature. Shenendoah is NOT about the river Shannon :-) And just because the word Paddy is in the title dont make it friggin Irish either!!! Liverpool-irish, American-irish, Irish-irish all sang these songs, as did Norwegians French Germans and Hottentots! Nuff said? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,Brian Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:55 PM Here's one that has been discussed: Ocam a' Phriosuin - prison oakum. It's not exactly a sea shanty, but it talks about picking oakum. Yhere are many maritime songs in irish. I don't know if they are considered sea shanties. Brian |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:25 PM There are quite a few shanties with Irish influence in them but not actually coming from Ireland. There are also many shanties that are a mix of African/American and Irish influences. "He Bang, She Bang" with it's "too-ry-ah" chorus is one. "Roller Bowler" with "hey-rig-a-jig" in the choruses is another. Some Irish songs, like "The Harp Without a Crown" were used as sea shanties. "Billy O'Shea" is an example of a recently composed shanty - it probably dates to the 1960's. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: R. Padgett Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:21 PM Quare Bungle rye, radie rye |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Dani Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:18 PM Q, what's that all about? Are you pulling my barely Irish leg? Dani |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,Melani Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:03 PM Chanteys and crew tended to be kind of multinational, but a lot of chanteys probably started out Irish and got reworked. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: bazza Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:17 PM In the book,"Irish Ballads and Songs of the Sea" by James N Healey names the shanties, Haul away Joe, Across the western Ocean, Paddy Doyle, Paddy on the Railway, The montague, Were all bound to go, And The Old Horse Hope this is helpfull |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:03 PM O Dublin town, I love your daughters, Away, you rolling river O Dublin town, I love your daughters; Away, we're bound to go- Cross the dear old Liffey. Shure, and this was the first, sung by St. Brendan's crew on the way to the New World. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: DonMeixner Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:42 PM Or do you want work songs specific to working the coastal waters off Ireland? And "Donegal Danny" is not a Sea Shanty either but a great song none the less. Don |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: IanC Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM No ... Sea Shanties, by their nature, come from ships. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM That's a big question, Before we come up with a list of several hundred Irish sea shanties, could you clarify why you are interested? And do you just want the work songs, the shanties, or other sea songs as well? Do you just want traditional sea shanties or newer ones as well? "The Irish Rover" is not a sea shanty but it is a rousing good sea song. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: Origins: Irish Sea Shanties From: GUEST,sallen@zoom.co.uk Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:59 AM Does any one have details of sea shanties that can be credited with coming out of Ireland? |
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