BS: Police deaths.

Subject: BS: Police deaths.
From: GUEST,curious
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

A policewoman was shot and killed yesterday in the UK while on duty. Her and another female officer were called to an incident at a travel agents, and didn't know it was an armed hold up. They were both shot, one fatally.

It threw up some interesting stats on the later News programme. In the last twenty years in UK 38 police officers have been killed on duty.

13 shot
9 stabbed
5 hit by vehicle
and I can't recall how the others died.

Now this isn't a pro/con gun stand. I just wondered if anyone mathematically minded could compare that number of deaths to an area in US similar in size and diversity to UK? It seemed a 'low' figure, but is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:34 PM

Link to US stats http://www.odmp.org/year.php

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:45 PM

I'll let others weigh in with comparisons and statistics. I did find this:

"More that 14,000 law enforcement officers have been killed in the line of duty. (Over 6,000 officers killed since 1960)

"Every year between 150 and 165 law enforcement officers are killed in the line of duty. (Over 300 children of police officers will need assistance in dealing with the grief of losing a parent.)

"Every 57 hours somewhere in America a Law Enforcement Officer dies in service to the Community.

"Two Police Officers are shot every day in the United States. Most officers are killed during arrest situations, distrubances and car crashes.
"Most officers are killed between 4:01 P.M. and Midnight. Twenty Five Percent of officers are killed with their own weapon. Most Officers are killed within 60 seconds of contact with suspect. Forty Percent of the time the officer is alone or has no backup available.

"More than 189 Police Officers are assaulted every day in the U.S. (68,985 assaulted yearly) and rising (that is one out of every nine.)

"The FBI reports that on a yearly average: 380 officers are the targets of unprovoked attacks by ambush, resulting in 21 law enforcement deaths."

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:49 PM

Ive said it before and here we go again.

The police stand between us and the miscreant's bullet. Metaphorically mostly but....................

I do think the law needs to be tough in these circumstances - we need to protect the protectors. No - I don't have a magic law but we can discuss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:15 PM

First of all, one wants to express sympathy to the friends, colleagues and relatives of the victims.
I am not really sure that we can make a fair comparison to the US. What you would probably find is that it has some areas where the statistics for crimes against their police officers are worse and some areas where they are less than ours. Not all areas of America are boiling with civil conflict and social deprivation.
In the UK, the killing of police officers is mercifully rare. The retribution, while it is not as drastic as it can be in the US, is near certain. I can't recall a police killer escaping justice. That is a pretty effective deterrent.
Nobody will be really happy until the number of killings goes down to zero. It is not a perfect world though. Our culture has done better than many, in that we have made this a very rare crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:31 PM

guns_and_policing_report

I can't get the "blue clicky" to work for this but it's a good report on arms control and policing and worth the effort of finding

Fixed clicky for ya

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:31 PM

I don't want to score points on a subject as sad as this, so I will just point out that the killers of both WPC Yvonne Fletcher and PC Trevor Blakelock have never been convicted. The guy originally convicted of the PC Blakelock murder, Winston Silcott, was cleared on appeal.
The other side of the coin is the case of Derek Bentley who was executed for the murder of a policeman, although it was someone else who pulled the trigger, but that person was under age.
The killing of a police officer arouses all sorts of emotions, and clouds a lot of judgements too, I just ask people to carefully consider before posting on this one.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:56 PM

I could not agree more John. Yvonne Fletcher was a unique case, because her murderers were in the Lybian embassy at the time and they were fully protected by diplomatic immunity. It is one of the bitter ironies of fate, that we were bound to respect that immunity. Other countries, like Iran, were not so keen on these niceties, but I would not wish to adopt their standards.
PC Blakelock was killed by a mob, essentially. It is the only incidence I know of this happening in the UK. I hope there is never another.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:09 PM

Thank you all. We've had one here and that was enough. Sady enough, he was killed accidentally in a car crash by another police officer. Both were trying to catch and escaped rapist......

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

I think there has been a police officer killed in the line of duty at one time or another in most towns in the US. My uncle used his service revolved in the line of duty one: a father and son had just shotgunned his partner to death (head shots) and my uncle fired six rounds at their car as they drove away. The bullets were so old that they did not even penetrate the trunk (boot), although he hit it six times. Thereafter the city replaced the .38s with .357 magnums and bought the cops brand new ammunition every year.

My uncle carried that with him to the grave -- "If I had only...." "Why didn't we...." Eventually he realized that he could have done nothing: it was an ambush done in retaliation for his partner issuing the son a speeding ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: danensis
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:25 PM

Even though I knew the area of Leeds where the policeman was shot a couple of years ago, I had only driven through it occasionally and stopped at the shops a couple of times, but the Bradford one really brought it home to me. I used to drink in a pub on Morley Street, eat in the cafes there, walk up and down to town.

I'm still absolutely against the idea of arming the police, I can remember the first time I went to Heathrow and saw the police with machine guns, I thought "they are going to cause more damage with those than they will ever prevent".

I must admit though that the american idea of assassinating political leaders does hold some merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:28 PM

Emma's link.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 03:35 AM

I'm afraid I was a bit confused by Emma's link. It appeared that she was linking - and describing - information on the original question of law enforcement people in the UK vs in the US, but the report apparently quotes total international incidence for the entire populated world in a way to make them appear to represent your own home town.

Ebbie's statistics were also initially confusing, when compared with bobad's link:

Ebbie cites "Every 57 hours somewhere in America a Law Enforcement Officer dies in service to the Community."

This statistic, which is approximately true if all "service related" deaths are counted, cannot be used without qualification in a discussion of assaults on law enforcement officers.

A puzzling situation, reminding me a bit of another thread in which the statistics cited proved beyound doubt that 80 percent of the population of the entire continent of Africa had died off by about 12 years ago...

The police organization's page that bobad linked shows 132 enforcement officers in the US - to date (November 19, 2005) who died "in the line of duty. This total is approximately one every 58 hours for this year to the date of the last reported death.

This includes, however:

Aircraft accident: 2
Automobile accident: 27
Bomb: 1
Drowned: 2
Duty related illness: 2
Fall: 2
Gunfire: 46
Gunfire (Accidental): 6
Heart attack: 13
Motorcycle accident: 3
Stabbed: 1
Struck by vehicle: 8
Training accident: 1
Vehicular assault: 14
Vehicle pursuit: 4

If the 46 officers killed by gunfire, 1 by bomb, 1 stabbed, and 14 by vehicular assault, or 63 total by obvious criminal assault of one sort or another are compared to the first UK figures cited - 27 total, my recollection of populations for the two countries would indicate that we're not too much different. I don't have good population figures handy to campare directly and accurately on a per capita basis.

I did not include the 4 who died in vehicle pursuits, since in most jurisdictions fleeing from police is not considered a "criminal assault." I think it should be, but thus far the politicians aren't listening to me.

The summary evaluation is it's far too common in both places. Someone should tell the criminals to stop it.

There is a noticable "excess" of vehicular assaults in the US, and given that it's possibly easier to dodge an oncoming vehicle than an oncoming bullet, perhaps a smaller percentage of such assaults are likely to be fatal to the intended victim. Attempted assaults with vehicles appear to be very much higher here than in almost any other place.

It is recognized by most of the few enforcement officers I've heard comment from that assault using a vehicle is probably their greatest risk. In many parts of the US, long distances between towns and large sparsely populated areas place virtually all enforcement officers "on the road," so many of them are likely to encounter "criminals armed with a vehicle." There is no backup that can be called that could arrive in time to be of help in many such encounters.

Not visible here is that such a vehiclular assault is likely to cause disabling injuries - often permanent - in a fairly large percent of cases in which the officer may survive, so the incidence of such attempts, with disastrous effect on the officers involved, is only vaguely reflected in numbers of officer deaths.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 03:41 AM

Apologies in order.

My confusion with subsequent posts caused me to miss that the numbers cited by guest curious were multi year totals, which of course makes the UK numbers significantly lower than for the US. The UK 20-year totals given may be about comparable to an annual total for the US, although I still don't have numbers for per-capita comparison.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:46 AM

The comparative figures do seem to indicate that arming the police in the UK wouldn't be doing them a favour. The fact that the tragic killing of this police officer is a major national story - in fact the major national story in many papers - is an indication of the fact that it is pretty rare for something like this to happen. I don't think that woudl be the case in a lot of places where police carry guns as a matter of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: NH Dave
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:53 AM

Well, of course the UK figures are smaller than those of the US; you're a much smaller country. But how to compare, that is the problem. It doesn't make much sense to compare equivalent land mass to equivalent   land mass, as much of our land is barren desert; sometimes very beautiful barren land, but barren land none the less.

OK, so you compare a number of our more populated states to the whole of the UK. That might work, but which of our states, since from the numbers referred to above, many states have either higher or lower fatalities per square whatever than others.

California has about 156,000 square miles of land & around 35.5 million people, with 16 police deaths. The UK and Ireland have about 122,660 square miles, and about 64,240,000, 64.25 million people with a 38 police deaths.   So the British Isles with about the same land mass and a little less than twice the people of California has 38 police deaths vs 16 for California. Looks as if the results are fairly close when population is factored in.

   But the UK figures noted above were all for police killed by or as a result of crimes in progress, while only 10 of the California deaths were directly as a result of crimes, the other six were vehicular or aircraft accidents - this figure does NOT include the poilce who died by vehicular assault, so now we have the UK with 38 killed by their work vs 10 California killed during a crime.

   This either proves that the UK has higher number of police killed as a result of crime, as opposed to California with about 10 police killed as a result of crime, but with population figured in has over twice the police killed by others while on the job. Or else, all I have shown is that it is difficult to compare UK police fatalities with US figures until I can more closely appoximate a portion of the US, with the same area and population with which to compare the UK.

Dave






7

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:04 AM

NH dave, you seem to be comparing the 20 year UK record to the (not quite) one year CA record.

CA lists 5 gunshot deaths for 2005. if typical * 20 = 100 for 20 years. * 2 for your "population factor" = 200 cf 13 for 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 12:55 PM

Ten police officers in California killed as a result of crime in tye last 20 years, NH Dave? You sure you've got those figures right?

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 01:41 PM

Unless the police -- or anyone else -- are trained when not to shoot, they should not be armed.

Moreover, a gun is not, by any definition, a defensive weapon (unless you count killing your assailant before s/he kills you a defense, which I don't). No matter what the movies and television show you cannot shoot a gun out of someone's hand. You cannot parry a bullet. On the other hand, a nightstick, a trunceon, a quaterstaff, a sword, and hand-to-hand combat are all weapons of both offense and defense.

No weapon that launches a missle -- be it a bullet, an arrow, a stone, a death ray, or a dried pea -- can be defensive.

Back to the sword, I say! 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 03:53 PM

Ya mean I gotta swallow this here tobacco juice?

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 03:58 PM

Tobacco juice is classified as a deadly, forbidden weapon in Canada, the US, and 137 other countries. In fact, the UN and the IACC considers it a Weapon of Mass Disgust; it is banned by all versions of the Geneva Convention and general good taste (in all senses).

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 04:05 PM

Deaths from 1995-2004 in US.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM

Good link.

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:04 AM

Data from Germany (80 Million inhabitants) for comparison:

The number of violently killed police officers is usually about 5 and can go up to 10 per year. Compared to that the number in Britain seems still low. It quite obviously does not include police officers in Northern Ireland, does it?

When the number of all police killed (not only violently; including even fatal heart attacks) during duty is compared to other professions it turns out that they are as much at risk as precision engineers, waiters, chefs, and electricians are and far below miners, seamen. Their risk to die during duty is actually below most other professions in Germany.

Another, maybe a bit nasty, comparison: More innocent people are fatally shot each year by the German police than police officers are killed violently.

No, I wouldn't agree that from this (correct) statistics follows that Germany would be safer without any police.
No, I do not think that knowing the very low professional risk of police officers is any consolation for the sad single case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:19 AM

Northern Ireland Figures for Wolfgang.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Police deaths.
From: NH Dave
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:15 AM

For those who noted the error in my figures, the UK figures were for 20 years and I failed to note this important factor. As for the California figures, they were for this year, well they were this year's figures for 2004, in the 2005 Times Almanac.

Dave