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BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush

Thomas the Rhymer 19 Nov 05 - 03:42 PM
Don Firth 19 Nov 05 - 03:58 PM
wysiwyg 19 Nov 05 - 04:22 PM
Don Firth 19 Nov 05 - 04:31 PM
GUEST 19 Nov 05 - 05:01 PM
freda underhill 19 Nov 05 - 05:05 PM
Ebbie 19 Nov 05 - 05:05 PM
freda underhill 19 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM
Don Firth 19 Nov 05 - 05:27 PM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 05:46 PM
Peace 19 Nov 05 - 05:47 PM
GUEST 19 Nov 05 - 05:50 PM
Peace 19 Nov 05 - 06:00 PM
number 6 19 Nov 05 - 06:29 PM
Deda 19 Nov 05 - 06:39 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 19 Nov 05 - 07:20 PM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Just Curious 19 Nov 05 - 08:01 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 19 Nov 05 - 08:55 PM
freda underhill 19 Nov 05 - 10:04 PM
kendall 20 Nov 05 - 07:20 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 08:09 AM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 08:10 AM
Donuel 20 Nov 05 - 09:37 AM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 10:15 AM
Amos 20 Nov 05 - 10:19 AM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 10:24 AM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 10:25 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 20 Nov 05 - 12:41 PM
dianavan 20 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM
Peace 20 Nov 05 - 06:32 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,A 20 Nov 05 - 06:52 PM
Peace 20 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 05 - 07:22 PM
Peace 20 Nov 05 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 20 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM
Peace 20 Nov 05 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,A 20 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,A 20 Nov 05 - 08:39 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 05 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,A 20 Nov 05 - 10:47 PM
Ron Davies 20 Nov 05 - 11:08 PM
Amos 21 Nov 05 - 12:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Nov 05 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,A 21 Nov 05 - 07:21 AM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,A 21 Nov 05 - 08:07 AM
leftydee 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Nov 05 - 10:28 AM
Deda 22 Nov 05 - 12:24 AM
Teribus 22 Nov 05 - 11:10 AM
Don Firth 22 Nov 05 - 02:37 PM
Teribus 22 Nov 05 - 04:11 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 05 - 05:06 PM
Ebbie 23 Nov 05 - 02:44 PM
Ron Davies 24 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM
Teribus 24 Nov 05 - 12:25 PM
Ron Davies 24 Nov 05 - 12:38 PM
Ron Davies 24 Nov 05 - 12:43 PM
Teribus 24 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM
Ron Davies 24 Nov 05 - 02:32 PM
Amos 24 Nov 05 - 03:35 PM
Ebbie 24 Nov 05 - 05:26 PM
Teribus 24 Nov 05 - 08:56 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Nov 05 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,Peter Piglet 24 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM
Peace 25 Nov 05 - 12:21 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 25 Nov 05 - 01:04 AM
Ebbie 25 Nov 05 - 01:31 AM
Teribus 25 Nov 05 - 05:16 AM
Little Hawk 25 Nov 05 - 12:57 PM
dianavan 25 Nov 05 - 01:32 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 25 Nov 05 - 03:05 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 05:19 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 05 - 09:12 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM
Ron Davies 25 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 25 Nov 05 - 11:09 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 05 - 11:25 PM
Ron Davies 25 Nov 05 - 11:33 PM
Ron Davies 25 Nov 05 - 11:36 PM
Teribus 26 Nov 05 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,A 26 Nov 05 - 07:51 AM
Bobert 26 Nov 05 - 08:59 AM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 05 - 10:42 AM
Teribus 27 Nov 05 - 10:14 AM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 10:18 AM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM
Teribus 27 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 01:19 PM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 01:23 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 27 Nov 05 - 03:15 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 05 - 04:57 PM
Leadfingers 27 Nov 05 - 07:25 PM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 10:17 PM
Ron Davies 27 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 27 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM
iancarterb 27 Nov 05 - 11:42 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 28 Nov 05 - 12:25 AM
Ron Davies 28 Nov 05 - 04:35 AM
Bobert 28 Nov 05 - 08:03 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 03 Dec 05 - 12:59 PM
Amos 03 Dec 05 - 02:04 PM
Ebbie 03 Dec 05 - 03:29 PM
Bobert 03 Dec 05 - 05:13 PM
Donuel 04 Dec 05 - 07:46 AM
Ron Davies 04 Dec 05 - 01:48 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 03:14 PM
Amos 04 Dec 05 - 03:23 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 03:46 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 06:34 PM
dianavan 04 Dec 05 - 06:38 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 07:04 PM
Donuel 04 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 07:18 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 05 - 07:28 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 07:35 PM
Ebbie 04 Dec 05 - 07:38 PM
Amos 04 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM
Amos 04 Dec 05 - 07:55 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 08:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 05 - 08:36 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 04 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM
dianavan 04 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 05 Dec 05 - 12:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Dec 05 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,A 05 Dec 05 - 07:52 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 05 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM
Amos 05 Dec 05 - 01:09 PM
Bobert 05 Dec 05 - 05:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM
Bobert 05 Dec 05 - 09:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 05 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Dec 05 - 05:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Dec 05 - 05:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Dec 05 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,A 06 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM
GUEST 06 Dec 05 - 05:25 PM
Bobert 06 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 06 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM
Ebbie 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM
Bobert 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM
GUEST,A 07 Dec 05 - 07:43 AM
Bobert 07 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM
Don Firth 07 Dec 05 - 02:33 PM
Don Firth 07 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM
Bobert 07 Dec 05 - 06:45 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM
Bobert 07 Dec 05 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 07 Dec 05 - 11:11 PM
dianavan 08 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,fiddler434 08 Dec 05 - 01:33 AM
Bobert 08 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Dec 05 - 09:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Dec 05 - 12:00 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Dec 05 - 03:54 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM
Bobert 08 Dec 05 - 06:17 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Dec 05 - 06:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM
Bobert 08 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Dec 05 - 10:05 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Dec 05 - 10:46 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 09 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Dec 05 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Yusafah 09 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM
GUEST,Woody 10 Dec 05 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Woody 11 Dec 05 - 12:28 AM
GUEST,Crowbar 12 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM
Bobert 12 Dec 05 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 12 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM
Bobert 12 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 13 Dec 05 - 12:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Dec 05 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Crowbar 14 Dec 05 - 06:36 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 14 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 05 - 08:32 PM
Donuel 14 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM
Bobert 14 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

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Subject: Absolute Power and it's Oedipal Consequences
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:42 PM

So... In trying to seperate and DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE between "Neo-Con Carnage" and "Red Blooded Conservative American Values"... I've been doin' a li'l readin'up.


Here's an excerpt from the 1998 publication "A World Transformed"... by Brent Scowcroft and George Herbert Walker Bush.

    "Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs... We would have been forced too occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq... there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post- Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilateraly exceeding the United Nation's mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to agression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

'Nuff said.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 03:58 PM

I can't say that I was all that fond of George H. W. Bush, but at least he wasn't stupid. It's obvious that Dubya didn't learn much at his daddy's knee.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 04:22 PM

Naw, I think Daddy thought it over since then and thought he had a plan that would work.

Or Dubya thought Daddy'd like to see him go get 'er done for him.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 04:31 PM

Under the guidence of the neo-con "daggers behind the throane," this is probably exactly what Dubya wants. One of the main goals of the neo-cons is to bankrupt the country so that it can no longer afford social programs such as food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid, funding for education, and all the country's more decent accomplishments within recent decades. Grover Norquist wants to "drown government in the bathtub" for exactly that reason.

Between the huge tax cuts for the wealthy and "giant sucking sound" (to paraphrase Ross Perot) of the national treasury vanishing into this Iraqi fiasco, they seem to be doing a fairly efficient job of it. The recent budget and its Draconian cuts in social programs that a large percentage of the country's population depends on tend to bear this out.

Plus, of course, the geopolitical power that permanent bases in the Middle East to maintain control over a large percentage of the world's fossil fuel resources. China, for example, is becoming more and more dependent on oil, and if we control the tap, we also exert a measure of control over China. Or, at least, that's the theory.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:01 PM

Did not major events happen after that publication? Most people can experience a change in opinion. Some, of course, have a mindset that is unalterable. An example is "tax cuts for the wealthy" Once more, this was an across the board tax cut. The top 5% of the higher income group pay over 50% of the total tax. Ah yes, the mindset!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:05 PM

Ah, the recalcitrance of anonymous taxi drivers who should be running the world!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:05 PM

Part of dubya's problem may have been that instead of thinking of consulting an ex-president - one who has been there - he thought of and rejected the advice and information that his daddy gave. In re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, civilization fell backward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM

...with a very LOUD THUMP!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:27 PM

Call it a "mindset" if you want, GUEST. I got about $200 back last year. That was very nice. But some people got hundreds of thousands, if not millions, back. Considering the screwing that a lot of needy people are getting, I would just as soon the gummint had kept it (along with the aforementioned hundreds of thousands, if not millions) and used it to help a lot of people who really need help. By the way, Barbara and I donated our tax cut to a very worthy cause.

"Mindset" my ass!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:46 PM

Well, that's the problem with this current Bush... I don't know where this drunk frat boy came to think he knew everything but he don't... Might of fact, given his track record in life he has messed up everything that he has been *given*.

He messed up his Air National Guard plum that daddy pulled strings to get him...

He messed a baseball team that daddy bought him...

He messed up Harkin Energy thast daddy bought him...

Now it looks like he's messed up our country and his dadddy and his daddy's buddies bought him...

Well, one thing is fir certain... The boy don't learn nuthin' and that is the problem with havin' him as president...

I don't hate the guy but he seems to be incapable of learnin' much of anything...

Yeah, I think that a little stubborness is an admirable trait but this guy makes a mule seem wishy washy...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:47 PM

"The top 5% of the higher income group pay over 50% of the total tax. Ah yes, the mindset!"

I think this is BULLSHIT. However, I could stand being corrected, after which I will apologize for saying it's BULLSHIT. I don't suppose you have anything as mundane as proof?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:50 PM

What does getting back $ have to do with anything?
Anyone that got a refund in the "hundred of thousands or millions" (which I have trouble believing) certainly did not their deductions in order at the beginning of the tax year. Actually, I don't believe it - anyone capable of that income bracket is going to be smart enough to not allow an interest free savings account. Marlarkey!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:00 PM

Marlarkey. That's the word I was looking for. Thanks, GUEST.

"The top 5% of the higher income group pay over 50% of the total tax. Ah yes, the mindset!"

I think this is MARLARKEY. However, I could stand being corrected, after which I will apologize for saying it's MARLARKEY. I don't suppose you have anything as mundane as proof?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: number 6
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:29 PM

"The Top of the Mornin to ya"

... the top 5% of the higher income group!! Who gives a flying crap ... it's about all the killin' over there in Iraq. When is this going to all end?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Deda
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:39 PM

In the Oct 31, '05 edition of the New Yorker there's a long article called "Breaking Ranks" by Jeffrey Goldberg. It's about Brent Scowcroft's falling out with the current administration, although he was very close to Bush senior and helped mastermind the original Gulf war, including its conclusion. He was the national security advisor when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990. He has nothing good at all to say about Bush junior, nor about the neocons generally. This is a painful position for him because Bush senior was someone he loved and admired, but this crowd have no interest in consulting or learning from anyone, regardless of their training or experience or wisdom. Scowcroft more or less "discovered" Condi Rice, pulled her out of Academia into the national foregin policy scene -- but she hasn't consulted him or listened to him for years now, because she's now a W-robot, and the W-bots just don't listen to ANYBODY, as a matter of policy.

I didn't much like Bush senior when he was in office but he looks like a screaming genius compared to this bunch of wing nuts.

Oh, and PS, I think a progressive tax, where the very wealthy pay a larger percentage than the very poor, is an enlightened and necessary thing in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 07:20 PM

O.K. ya'all... Some drift, some good points... but mostly just the same old tired Bush Bashing, from the same tired ol' Bush Bashers. Talk about beating a dead horse... Don't you realize how stupid you look when you call the president stupid? Duh...

IMHO, seems to me he didn't exactly get "the pick of the litter" from his dad's cohorts... in fact, on closer inspection, perhaps "Double U" got stuck with the 'hard cases'... the ones who his dad couldn't really let loose... because their impulses were too... ummm... shall we say.... crude and undiplomatic? So, still having a bone to pick with the world, maybe they picked Double U to usher them in...

Isn't it odd how a small clique of radicals could lower the political bar so low... that the mightiest nation on God's green earth is absolutely obsessed with a creepy thing of a thug... a veritable flea in the world arena... and, quite honestly... lowering our national exchange of ideas forums to a pitiful ad hominem geurilla warfare type of bullying sleaze... Strange to say... but isn't this crudeness a reasonable approximation of what we find loathesome about Saddam?

Let's raise the bar! K?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 07:48 PM

As fir the tax thing, Bruce, If the upper 5% control 50% of the wealth then the 50% would be about right... But it don't matter... It's just a dumbass stat...

Hey, don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows an' it's blowin' in the face of the poor and middle class right now... They are loosin' and the ruich are gettin' rich beyond their wildest dreams...

But worse than that, they are flauntin' it... This is goina' eventually backfire on them as folks fall further and further behind as stagnated wages and higher health costs force more and more middle class families down the totum poll toward the abyss with little or no hope of ever being able to retire...

It's allready happenin' as I see more and more very senior citizens havin' to work as clearks in box stores... There's an old man who collects the shopping carts back up West Ginny at the Martin's Groceries... Don't matter if it's 100% 'er snowin' you see that poor broken down old man out in the parking lot pushin' carts fir $7.00 an hour...

Oh sure, one of the aristocrats will come along and say he's does it 'cause he likes the job... Hey, get yer fat ass on a plane and go see him fir yerself and come back here and tell us that poor old man does it fir kicks!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Just Curious
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:01 PM

Thomas, your last post leaves me a bit confused as to where you expected this thread to go, especially in the light of your first post. I believe it was going along pretty much as you appeared to intend, at least until GUEST -- 19 Nov 05 - 05:01 PM got on Don Firth's case for his comments about tax breaks for the wealthy in relation to what he (DF) perceives to be a deliberate attempt on the part of neo-conservatives to reduce the financial resources of the country to the point where welfare and social safety net programs can no longer be funded. Considering the comments of many neo-conservatives such as Nordquist and others, plus the chain of events leading to the drastic social welfare cuts in the recently passed budget, it appears to me that DF has a defensible point. GUEST tries to blow it off by accused him of a liberal "mindset." Ad hominem? Red herring? Straw man?

In my own opinion, I don't consider GWB to be stupid, but I do believe he is not the brightest bulb on the tree. He probably has sufficient competence to do reasonably well in a middle management position. I just think that as President of the United States, he's in way over his head. I see him as the figurehead and fall guy for a group of pretty predatory people.

In your first post, you contrast Herbert G. W. Bush's 1998 comments with the behavior of his son. Where did you expect this thread to go?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:55 PM

I have no expectations... but if experience dictates... the shorthand is sparse and consistant.

I'm simply pointing out the obvious...

...That there is a wide gulf of disagreement between the 'radical' and largely intollerant neo-con approach to international affairs, and the much more carefully thought out and diplomatic "red blooded conservative" approach to international relations...

Its as clear as day.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 10:04 PM

and back to the beginning - such a good post it deserves repeating..


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:20 AM

I have a copy of Bush's student record. With help he was able to come out average.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM

But in spite of all the above what he really wants is religious freedom in China!
China is already free from religion and long may it stay so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:09 AM

In fact China is not "free of religion" including Christianity--and the present government is waffling on what to do about, specifically, Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:10 AM

Or even "free from religion".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:37 AM

Yes GHWB wrote of the immeasurable cost of occupying Iraq.

With many of the same cronies re-appointed under "Jr.", the earlier advice was over ridden by Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Let us not forget that Colin Powell advised W that "if you invade Baghdad, you will end up OWNING Iraq - at a cost too large to imagine..."

Colin Powell was forced out with a lesser award than was even given Tenet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:15 AM

GHW Bush wasn't perfect--nor the devil incarnate.

Probably his worst fault was that he has "brought to you" the current "leader". Though obviously Rove had something to do with it too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:19 AM

Thomas:

I have called W stupid several hundred times on these threads, because events continuously remind me of the fact.

Calling a viper a viper may look stupid to you, but my take is that it is necessary to repeat the simple truth of the matter until it sinks in across the boards.

You may feel from your high, exterior perspective that this requires no pointing out because it is too obvious.

But there are still a good 30-40% of the voting mass who haven't cottoned on to their awful mistake.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:24 AM

Amos--

I would disagree with the characterization of "W" as stupid. That undersestimates the danger he has posed and continues to pose. He, and his minions, are rather, expert demagogues--and hate and fear, it's been often proven, work like a charm in uncertain times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:25 AM

"underestimates"--I gotta start proofreading a bit more--"Physician, heal thyself".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 12:41 PM

My high exterior perspective... uhhh... fine one to talk you are, Amos...

Calling the elected president of a sanctioned democracy 'stupid' several hundred times, is tantamount to abusive behavior. Gonna bash your way to the true and right just like Saddam, there Amos?

No matter... reaching people, and offending them are two different things... and I for one am just now learning to tell the difference. Care to join me?

Believe in the people, strengthen thy self!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM

He isn't stupid, he's evil


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:32 PM

"That undersestimates the danger he has posed and continues to pose."

Don't misunderestimate him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM

Well, he is certainly evil but there is quite a high level of supidness to him...

I guess it comes down to how one defined stupid...

Maybe "insane" is a better word...

See, the problem with Bush is that folks keep giving him one more cahnce to do the right, ahhhh, strike that, the *correct* thing but he continuously makes the wrong choice....

I mean, even last Friday, in attackin' the Dems... This was the wrong choice. Why? Well, this oughtta seem purdy danged obvious but all he did was rile veryone up... Yeah, he is danged good at riling everyone up but the problem with riling everyone up is that after he has riled everyone up and the dust settles, his approval ratings are lower than before the latest riling up of folks...

Now I'm not sure if that is stupid or insane or maybe a combination of the two??? But it's definately somewhere close...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:52 PM

Let us know if you figure out if it is "insane or stupid"

Keeping in mind, however, after he did what he did, Congress voted 402-003 in favor of NOT pulling out of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM

www.toostupidtobepresident.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:22 PM

Don't get all excited about that little politcal trap that the Repubs set... It's was nuthin' more tha a gimick and won't stop the American people or the House from askin' Bush fir a clear cut plan other than "stay the course", whcih if ya' ain't got a plan to begin with ain't like, ahhhh, a plan???

Unless, GUEST A, maybe you'd like to explain what "the plan" is fir us???

Then maybe, since yer guy is the one accusing others of trying to rewrite history, tell us why we invaded Iraq to begin with??? If it was WMD's then when we found there weren't any, why didn't we leave???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:24 PM

If you don't find it, then how do ya know it's not there? Simple logic, really. Get with the program, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM

"In my own opinion, I don't consider GWB to be stupid, but I do believe he is not the brightest bulb on the tree. He probably has sufficient competence to do reasonably well in a middle management position. I just think that as President of the United States, he's in way over his head. I see him as the figurehead and fall guy for a group of pretty predatory people."

I have to agree with that. [By the way, GUEST,Just Curious, thank you for your support.]   I don't think George W. Bush is stupid, evil, or insane. I think he's a sort of average, perhaps one can say mediocre man. His history seems to bear that out. An indifferent student at both Yale and Harvard, where, quite probably he couldn't have got in had he not been a Bush (legacy kind of thing). Party boy in college; dunno what his grades were but he probably slid by on Cs. Wimped our on Vietnam by getting daddy to pull a few strings so he could jump the line and get into the Texas Air National Guard. Good pilot. Top 5% of his class. Seemed to like flying a lot. Then wimped out on that. Couldn't be bothered to show up after he transferred to Alabama (Dan Rather's goof was in not getting the document properly verified—in the light of the stink that caused, people lose sight of the fact that the story itself was true. There are those who think that was the whole purpose of feeding Rather a phony document.). Daddy bought him an oil company and he drove it into bankruptcy. Then daddy bought him a baseball team and he managed to screw that up. So where else could he go?

Politics, of course.

Being essentially clueless, realizing it to a degree and, hence, malleable, and because of the Bush name-recognition, he was a prime candidate for the neo-conservative puppet masters. And it turns out he's not real good at handling that, either. But he'll take most of the rap for the Machiavellian machinations of the neo-cons who are pulling his strings.

Through all his life, George W. Bush has been and still is the living example of the Peter Principle at work. He is constantly being promoted to positions that are beyond his level of competence. I think GUEST,Just Curious is right:   "He probably has sufficient competence to do reasonably well in a middle management position. I just think that as President of the United States, he's in way over his head."

When I hear Bush speak, I'm really tempted to think, "Jeez, what an idiot!!" But in more reflective moments, I tend to feel a bit sorry for the poor sod. History is not going to be kind to him.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:42 PM

The 'history' Bush leaves behind isn't going to be kind to the rest of us, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:37 PM

Bobert, I don't have a clue as to the "plan." Plus, your post seemed to be somewhat incoherent to me. If you need an answer, go ask the 402 Repubs AND Dems that voted not to withdraw from Iraq.

Please, don't check in with the other 003 like you are prone to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:39 PM

And Bobert, it WAS the House!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:28 PM

Listen, GUEST A, can you friggin' read??? I said the "House" in my 7:22 post so what's the big deal...

You have missed the entire point on the vote... This was a Republican trap set fir unsuspecting Dems... Didn't get too many... Stay tuned as over the next weel or two the House dems will write a "real" bill, not a PR stunt, that will ask Bush to clarify the goald of the US and set some realistic troop withdrawls based on things like Iraqis trained to defend themselves...

As much as you would love fir this war to continue forever, it can't... Get over it!!!

And I knew you didn't hava a clue as to what "the plan" might be because there isn't one...

What kind of foriengn policy is that???

Nevermind, I know yer answer... "Danged if I know"...;

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 10:47 PM

The House has made their choice; Stay the course!

"Unsuspecting Dems?" Why did they all vote in favor of the no withdrawl?
Can they all be "unsuspecting?" Or just afraid to make a decision on their own? What makes you think that next week will be any different or is that just wishful thinking on your part?

My, my, you certainly have a low flare point which leads me to believe you just don't know what you are talking about.

You are the one talking about a "plan". Please share with us if you can or are you just daydreaming like the Dems?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 11:08 PM

Sorry Guest A--the very fact that Republicans would sponsor anything requiring more certification of progress in Iraq--not just body counts--establishes a lot more than "stay the course"---it means they're also getting impatient.    After all, since the "victory" all we've seen is more dead--Iraqis and "coalition" troops-----and progressively more indication of breakup of the country de facto---the "constitution" provides for it--and incipient civil war.

Guess who is caught in the middle when the civil war heats up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 12:06 AM

Well, I think he is deep-in-the-bone stupid, the kind that comes from booze, drugs, more privelege than one can outgrow and a kind of thickheadedness about life. That is not to say he cannot be clever, and he has demonstrated he can weasel with the best. No question. But fer cry-i -- here's a guy who had an opportunity to make major advances in the real problems of the day, and instead turned the nation's deficit upside down in order to have him a war he didn't need. Coming to office at the crest of a rising wave of human harmful impacts on the environment, he undermines environmental efforts, and short-changes science. He uses the highest pulpit in the land to suggest that gay marriage ought to be banned in the United States Constitution. Given an opportunity to support major advances in medical research, he decides to side with reactionary religionists to suppress those advances. He starts a war without even planning to lock the other side out of their ammo dumps, armor our Humvees, or figger out where the exit is or how to finish the job.

These are glaring errors; if I don't attribute them to stupidity on his part, I have to conclude that he in being intentionally destructive, which makes him psychotic. 'Course, that's perfectly possible. But, to my mind, you have to be kinda stupid to go crazy.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:02 AM

I have to disagree with that last sentence Amos. Many of the world's great crazies were highly intelligent, and all the more dangerous for that.

GeeDub is a man with more cunning than intelligence, who has got himself in a lose/lose situation. He must pull out of Iraq if he wants to regain any credibility with the rest of the world, but he can't pull out because civil war would result, culminating in rule by Ayatollahs whose policies would be directly counter to US interests.

He has, by his own dumb actions, placed his arse in a huge wringer, and the only thing that surprises me about that, is the lack of volunteers to turn the handle.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:21 AM

Geez, Amos, I am beginning to wonder who is psychotic here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:02 AM

GUEST A says while looking in the mirror...

Yer may be right, Amos, he may indeed be pschotic but my money is more on criminal or evil because he has let danged near any corporation that has the big bucks have their way with the Amercian middle class and America's poor...

Yeah, I don't concern myself too much with the usual emotional issues such as gay marriage, abortion or prayer in school... These are nuthin' but smoke-screen issues to keep folks from really understanding how big business is screwing the avearage American...

Yeah, not too far under the emotional issues we see the lobbiest camped out like fleas in the House and Senate office buildings... These are the folks whop are actuallt writing the legislation, not congressmen....

Take a look at the perscription drug program fir instance... This ain't nutyhin' but a redestribution of wealth away from the average tax payer to the wealth pharacudical and insurance folks... Meanwhile, the lederly will be paying more fir the ir perscriptions, not less...

(Tell 'um how much this hiest is gonna coast the taxpayers for which the old people won't get any more benefit, BObert)

Oh yean, 'bout $270B over 10 years!!! That's billion, folk!!!! Now don't go ask me to provide you with my sources... By now, everyone here knows someone who is stuggling with the plans and all the folks I've talked to say their drugs are gonna cost them more... But don't believe me... As k yer mom, 'er next door neighbor, 'er yer older sister... Just ask 'um....

See, thats kinda why my money is on criminal... Bush is like holding the average taxpayer down while the big corporations riffle thru his pockets for money...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:07 AM

Interesting Bobert, I make a comment about who might be psychotic and here you are.

How can the drugs increase in price - what were they without a drug plan? You just don't know, do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: leftydee
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 AM

Come on , Guest A.... It's obvious to those of us with average intelligence that the Bushies are doing whatever it takes to take whatever is available and passing it up to the "already have too muches". By bankrupting America it gives them a reason to remove all safety nets and social programs and, thus, give a permanent under class for fodder for their descendents. It's not the poor that are under attack, it's the the middle-class. We are being pushed closer to poverty daily. These idiotic tax cuts just pass our debts to our grandchildren. Do you you want your grandkids to live in a third world economy? I have nothing against capitalism. I own a small biz myself. I do object to profiteering. It is reprehensible what the drug companies do. They have you by the scrotum and they not going to let you go. It's a small group of companies (nod, nod, wink, wink) that keep prices ridculously high and have the government protect the scam. This shit started with that union busting bastard Reagan. "Come on boys, let's shovel some more money upstairs!"

I guess what I'm most amazed by is that none of these greedy fuckers realize that the middle class is what makes America tick. We fuel the economy and do the chores. When we're gone, then what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:28 AM

O.K. now boys... no rough housing in this mild mannered and gentlemanly thread... ;^)

Psychotic? Oh, please... Guest A... I'd say that your cowardly anonymous sniping is the closest thing to psychotic we've got around here.

I agree with Boberto on the emotional distractions... Liberals are SO easily manipulated...

I'm of the opinion, however, that the only thing wrong with this administration is it's exclusion of the left wing. Like it or not, the self serving prescription... that nemisis belonging to the indolent control freaks of every persuasion... is a function of the 'absolute power' that our country abhores. Neo-Cons belong in a system of checks and ballences (gesticulating perhaps a bit too wildly over at the pinko gay marriage support groups, who are fervidly returning gesticulations ) ...

It is only through the democratic process that our country functions properly... and I for one haven't been seeing enough of it.

Anyone who thinks that identification *a priori* with a partisan ( that's 'artisan' with a whirled pea) political affiliation is the 'hot ticket'... as opposed to an open minded and well informed (including the 'facts' gathered by all prespectives) apraisal of each issue... is thinking inside the box, thus driving another nail into democracy's coffin. Yikes!

G'day!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Deda
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:24 AM

The first person who defected from the GWB White House and wrote about it (sorry, I forget the name, was 1st administration, maybe after about 1 1/2 - 2 years) said that the general perception of W. is that (a) he's kinda dumb, but (b) he's really a nice guy -- NEITHER of which is accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:10 AM

Bobert - 19 Nov 05 - 05:46 PM

Now let's take a look at the extent of GWB's so called screw ups according to Bobert, Bobert of course has not got things happening in the correct order:

Air National Guard - Lt. George W. Bush was considered to be a highly proficient pilot.

Harken Energy - GWB took Arbusto Energy Inc., bought up undeveloped/lapsed licence areas in Texas. Sold the Company on, GWB getting a position in the Company that now owns Arbusto. Arbusto's new owners are taken over by Harken Energy, who also give GWB a job. GWB is given 212,000 shares in Harken Energy (Worth $600,000 approx). Harken were going into a deal that was way outside their area of expertise (offshore exploration in the Arabian Gulf as opposed to onshore exploration in the USA). GWB advised against and stated that if they went ahead with it he would sell up and leave. That is what did happen and GWB's Harken Energy Shares were sold for just under $850,000. The capital he used to raise Arbusto was his own which he increased about four-fold, he then remains employed and the value of his shareholdings increase by 33%. That's some screw up Bobert.

The Texas Rangers Baseball Team - In the meantime, prior to GWB selling up his Harken Shares, he has raised a loan to buy a share of the Texas Rangers Baseball team (Cost $606,302 in 1989). He uses some of the money he gets from the sale of his Harken shares to pay off that loan. In 1998, when the Texas Rangers are sold GWB's shares are worth $14.9 million. Now fuckin' hell Bobert that really was a screw up, loads of failed business men do it all the time.

PS - If that's what you call "messing up everything" maybe we all should try it - we'd at least be able to afford a more comfortable kind of misery. Oh Bobert, another correction - He (GWB) was *given* Fuck All.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:37 PM

Well, Teribus, you got ½ out of three.

As a pilot, Bush was in the top five percent of his class. When he bothered to show up. We'll give you half a point for that one.

Bush and Harken.   Goose egg.

Some pertinent poop on the Texas Rangers deal.
Here's some more on the Texas Rangers.   Goose egg.

Some interesting notes on Bush as a businessman.   Fasten your seat belt!

No, Bush isn't stupid. But there's a big difference between "smart" and "cunning." Not to mention "dishonest" and "ruthless." It becomes obvious that, in office, he's looking out for his own.

Sorry, T-bird. Some days are like that.

Don Firth

P. S. And I didn't even link to anything by Molly Ivins. Boy, does she have a lot to say on the subject!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 04:11 PM

Sorry Don, reads and sounds like sour grapes to me

About $175k turned into $14.9 million in just under ten years - God Bless America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:06 PM

"Sour grapes?" That's a pretty limp come-back, T-Wrecks.

Take a good look how Bush did it. That is the point.

You're not condoning sheer bloody-minded greed and screwing anyone who gets in the way, even the general public, are you?

Are you?

Don Firth

P. S. Of course in some people's minds, the opportunity to operated that way is the American Dream. God Bless the Bottom Line (no matter how you do it)!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:44 PM

Thank you for that link, Don. Even if the apologists deny or disbelieve that particular article, it is possible that they will be motivated to investigate their own sources. Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM

Teribus--

"L.t George W. Bush was considered to be a highly proficient pilot"

Let's assume that is true.

Sure is curious therefore that these skills were not used in Vietnam, which is where most of his fellow proficient pilots were sent.   Amazing how that happens.

Admittedly he did have some important work to do-- rating watering holes in the South, and working for Republican candidates. I'm sure his piloting skills were essential in both of these enterprises, which are of course vital to US national security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:25 PM

Ron Davies - 24 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM raises a couple of points:

Point 1.
"Teribus--

"L.t George W. Bush was considered to be a highly proficient pilot"

Let's assume that is true."

How about this:
(Source - www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml)

""Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970..... Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."

Now let's take a look at that aircraft he was declared operational on (Top 5% remember - by the man who trained him))

"the F-102 was still far more dangerous to fly than today's combat aircraft. Compared to the F-102's lifetime accident rate of 13.69, today's planes generally average around 4 mishaps per 100,000 hours. For example, compare the F-16 at 4.14, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots."

Hey Ron, 259 lost in accidents out of 875, that's just a kick in the arse off 30% - Give the man his due, all indications, plus the word of the guy who trained him, seem to bare out that GWB was a highly proficient pilot, combat/operations cleared in a very difficult aircraft. So Ron is that that particular little slur cleared up - I fucking well hope so, otherwise I'll have to trot it out again the next time one of the anti-Bush tossers brings it up.

On to the next one:

"Sure is curious therefore that these skills were not used in Vietnam, which is where most of his fellow proficient pilots were sent.   Amazing how that happens."

From:
www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

"Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG, where Bush was stationed, even served combat duty in Vietnam routinely under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970" (HINT - Note the times Ron - When did GWB go operational on this type of aircraft?)

"This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons."

"Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were NOT YET QUALIFIED since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants."

" the F-102 had originally been stationed in that theater to guard against the possibility of air attack from the North, a danger that never materialized since North Vietnamese pilots refused to stray south of the border and outside their own protective SAM barrier. This lack of a threat prompted the Air Force to gradually withdraw the F-102 from southeast Asia beginning in December 1969 and concluding in May 1971."

OK Ron - status check:
- We have trainee pilots putting in a request that is refused for the rock solid reasons given above by their training officer.
- We have a temporary assignment programme that is being wound down
- We have an aircraft type that was already in the process of being withdrawn from the theatre of operations. This aircraft type being the one that the pilot in question has just been declared operational on.

Now what is it that you find amazing about that Ron? Because it looks pretty damn logical and totally understandable to me. By the bye Ron had Lt G. W. Bush cross-trained it would have had to have been to a McDonald-Douglas Phantom F-4 Conversion Unit that would have bought up a further 15 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:38 PM

Teribus--


As I recall, Mr. Bush took his sweet time about asking about Palace Guard. He was not tremendously eager to leave his important work surveying watering holes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:43 PM

He also took his sweet time about joining the military at all. If he'd actually wanted to fight in Vietnam, rather than strongly advocate that others do so, I'm confident he could have found a way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM

First the Ron Davies - Post of: 24 Nov 05 - 12:38 PM

Now then Ron, taking into account that you know what 'Palace Guard' was. And taking into account the reason GWB and Fred Bradley's request was turned down (i.e. not fully trained and too inexperienced), can you rationally explain how requesting assignment to Vietnam under the 'Palace Guard' programme earlier than they did would have been viewed more favourably? Because my sense of logic would tell me that at that time they would be even less trained and a lot more inexperienced than when they were originally turned down - TRUE Ron??

Second Ron Davies - Post of: 24 Nov 05 - 12:43 PM

So when did you rush into the fray Ron?

I know damn well that, as a young man, if I was given the choice between stumbling about a jungle for two years or learning to fly high performance jet fighters for four, I would opt for the chance to fly for four years. Nothing strange about that, completely understandable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 02:32 PM

I know exactly what Palace Guard was. Somebody who was cheerleading the war loudly from the rear could have taken whatever steps necessary to actually fight--not put it off as long as possible.

Can you say "hypocrite"?

Contrast Bush's behavior with some in World War II who actually lied about their ages in order to get a chance to fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 03:35 PM

ANd "inquiring about" is not at all identical with "requesting", T. So far I have seen no evidence he offered any intent to act on the information.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 05:26 PM

Kind of like Cheney telling them he really would like to go fight for our country but he had interfering priorities. Five times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 08:56 PM

So Ron Davies, I take it that you didn't go either - well what the fuck - let he who is without whatever cast whatever.

Listen you stupid prick - how long do you think it takes to train a pilot not only to fly a high performance aircraft but to fight it.

Now this is supposed to be a predominently musical sight. So how long does it take between someone deciding that they want to play a musical instrument to them being able to stand up in front of thousands and blow that audience away with the sheer magnificence of their playing. Now if you can quantify that. That was GWB's achievement in qualifying combat capable in the F-102A, have you got that you narrow, closed-minded, bigotted prick. Are you really that small minded that you cannot give anyone credit for their own accomplishments, because if you are then I have nothing but pity for you, and nothing but contempt for your opinions. And just to give you an idea of where I am coming from, I was one of 2000 who applied for flight training, out of 2000 less than 25 were selected. Out of 25 only three when on to be accepted for training.

Now Ron Davies unless you have achieved any sort of equal status the question above still stands, oddly enough I don't think that anywhere in your life you have come anywhere close, and that is based purely on what you say here on this forum and the values you espouse. So Ron Davies unless you come up with some fairly substantial evidence to the contrary, you are the one I will label a hypocrite.

When faced with presented fact, you have consistently ignored the substance and countered with unsubstantiated garbage. Please try to do better, or else give up entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 09:41 PM

HEY TERIBUS.. Nice research! Thanks for going to the trouble to getting some of the hard to find facts about GWB's service. Take it down a few notches though... OK? I know it's hard to take it from the Brainwashed Hollywood Liberals... who are still glorifying the Republican-bashing Veit Nam years... But hey... your well spoken research carries more weight when you dish it out lightly.

The jaunty attitude of the 'one sided liberals' is often just exasperating and vapid... but not always... So said, much of the linking is stinking of one sided persuasion evasion... These issues are WAY TOO complicated for such simplistic dualities to comprehend... Time to take a coupla steps toward the center... We're divided... and thus conquered.

Bring on the facts, and we'll talk it over... realistic... not fatalistic.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Peter Piglet
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM

OINNNNK!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:21 AM

You may see the respective service records of Bush and Kerry here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:04 AM

Well done, Peace! ...But Gore was a friend of Clinton's... ...and so he couldn't be trusted.
;^) ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:31 AM

How old are you, T? How old do you think Ron Davies is? One thing I can say for him, proven liar that I am, is that Ron Davies does his homework. Which is more than I can say for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:16 AM

Ebbie - 25 Nov 05 - 01:31 AM

"One thing I can say for him (Ron Davies), proven liar that I am, is that Ron Davies does his homework. Which is more than I can say for you."

If that were indeed the case Ebbie it would be very easy for him to refute the substance of the case as put to him. He doesn't, not many of the anti-Bush, anti-war crowd do when confronted by verifiable fact. They wind themselves up in cosy inaccuracies and half truths, selected to reinforce their many dubious but dearly held beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:57 PM

"They wind themselves up in cosy inaccuracies and half truths, selected to reinforce their many dubious but dearly held beliefs."

The typical response of any ego to another ego that holds a different opinion about anything whatsoever... ;-)

Teribus, the people you debate with endlessly on this forum are just like you (in their basic tendency to react and counterattack, I mean). You have a symbiotic relationship with all of them which will go on until your computers crash or you die. And nothing useful will be accomplished either, but by GOD, will you ever feel righteous as you score yet another brilliant point over your despised opponent (whose only crime is that he probably grew up under a different set of family-based political influences)!

It's an addiction, man. Face it. I wish I had a dollar for every word you have churned out on politics in the last few years. I would buy the whole damn Internet and turn it to some more useful purpose...like creating jobs or building homes for the homeless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:32 PM

Well said, Little Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 03:05 PM

Nice of you to condesend to stop by, Little...

I'd say that your 'ultra cool' internet demeanor is just as shallow and self absorbed as you claim Teribus to be... Can't you see the implied superiority of your PC-sheek detatchments... in each and every one of the mock identities you portray??? ...True though... the lusty lefty ladies love it!

Nice to see a "Little" backbone and the "Hawk's" extended claws for a change... Like... It's nice to know "something really matters... anyone can see... something really matters... to thee." ;^)
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM

"…..not many of the anti-Bush, anti-war crowd do [refute the substance of the case as put to him] when confronted by verifiable fact…."

You might try actually presenting a verifiable fact, Teribus, rather than lengthy cut and pastes from right wing blogs and websites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:19 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks like T-Jerk didn't get no Thanksgivin' day turkey and fixin's... But in spite of missin' out on the turkey, he sho nuff in a foul mood...

Now he's gonna say that anyone who ain't a friggin' pilot canm't have an opinion on Bush's unexplained AWOL... Hmmmmmm?

You a pilot, T-Jerk? You said that you applied as one of 2000 and only 25 were selected and only 3, ahhhh, whatever the 3 was... Were you one of the 3, T-MayBeAPilotMaybeNot...

If so, maybe you can tell the peanut gallery if George Bush had the authority to land a military plane, as the pilot, on a carrier deck... He sho didn't ind jumped out of the plane with his pilotin' suit on and sho nuff didn't mind givin' a strong "impression" that he had landed the plane...

Just curious???

And just my opinion but flyin' planes ain't all that hard to do... Okay, I'll give Bush credit fir gettin' thru "ground school" but the actual flyin' ain't all that tough... Yeah, though I never botrhered gettin ground school 'er a license, I been flyin' since I was 'bout 8 years old... No big deal... I learnt on a joy stick Cub tail-dragger and have flown, icludin' takes offs and landings, Cesnas, Piper Cherokee and even a Moonie... Not too tough...

Well, not so tough taht if you can't do it you ain't allowed to have no opinion, that is...

Maybe you need a vacation, T-zer... Yuou really have become a real jerk now that the lies are getting exposed and the chickens are coming to roost...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:12 PM

Bobert, have you ever flown anything like an A-4 fully loaded with weapons, let alone a F-102? And we will skip the carrier deck stuff.

Can you relate to the flying of an aircraft similiar to the aforementioned and not involve the characteristics of something like a Piper Cub with a take off speed that is not as fast as a passenger car?

Never mind! Now that I think about it, you are a disgrace to any basic debate that requires some facts. This thread and a couple others are not about you although you try to direct them that way.

The stories of your skills and derringdo never cease to amaze me. The amazement part is due to the fact that your poor sagging ego makes you post this crap when in essence most don't give a flyig F*** what you may have done. I am going to believe that you are a total puton. This gives you a little benefit of the doubt regarding your pathetic attempts to impress others.
Again Bobert, this is not about you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:27 PM

Well gol danged, GUEST, first youask me a question then you imply you couldn't give a flyin' crap what my answer is...

Was it good fir you???

Yer the one with the saggin' ego, GUEST... S osaggin' that you sit in yer little GUEST closet... That's 'bout as saggin' as it gets...

You better spend less time worryin' 'bout me ego than yers...

And no, I ain't ever landed an A-4 or a C-5 but guess what? Planes is purdy much the same... Give me a couple passes' and I'll greeze the skids...

Now have you a ball in yer little GUEST closet... You are prolly a bored ten yer old girl who's up past her bed time...

Nighty night...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM

BTW, Guest....

Why are we skipping the carrier deck stuff??? I think we both know the answer and anything that makes yer hero not shine, we skip...

I get it...

Can you spell "Hypocrit"....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM

BTW, Part B, GUEST...

Yer hero ain't landed no A-4 or c-5 or C5a loaded with no weapons either but I have callenged him to a carrier landin' contest and he ainh't took me up on it so figgure he's a looser, jus' lie you...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM

Teribus--

Temper, temper, little man.

Where's your veneer of civilization? Haven't you ever heard the quickest way to lose an argument is to lose your temper? You might want to keep that in mind.

I repeat: "where there's a will...." People who wanted to fight in World War II were able to do so. Anybody who wanted to fight in Vietnam could have also done so. For example, burning with desire for combat glory as he was, G W Bush could have left school early. Funny thing about how being in school tended to keep loudmouth war supporters safe.

I will note again that I am a 3-year veteran--and did not take time off from my military service for the important national security mission of working for my chosen political candidates. As far as I know, my fitness for elective office is not actually under discussion here--you may be under the delusion, among many others, that it is.

As I've said before, I am also a registered Republican. It's just that for some reason, hypocrisy tends to bother me. The word (pardon the expression) "chickenhawk" comes to mind.

Also, what about Amos' point about "inquiring about" vs "requesting"? And, as I recall, Bush was in fact teased about the fact that he was not going to Vietnam by fellow students in his piloting class who were in fact going. So much for your heart-breaking excuse that Bush was "too late" for Vietnam.   Others in his class were not. Logic would suggest that, had he wanted to, he could have arranged to be with them.

Let me compliment you however, on your turn of phrase--"cosy inaccuracies and half-truths, selected to reinforce...many dubious but dearly held beliefs".

That's wonderful! You must have been looking in the mirror when you wrote that.

You are indeed a worthy companion for the "Swift Boat Veterans For Filthy Politics"--wasn't that their name?

Note the clever way Bush, while keeping his own hands clean, was able to have surrogates trash the reputation of a good man who--in contrast to himself- did fight----and was respected at the time by those who actually did serve under him. That Kerry did turn against the war does not negate the fact that he did fight in it. Au contraire-- (sorry about the French--I know it conclusively proves deep-down lack of patriotism)--it means he is a thinking being.

You ought to try it sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

Now you went and done it, Ron...

'tween me messin' with T's little sister (GUEST) and you... we done over loaded their little circuits...

Tough beans...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:09 PM

Thanks for the 'mostly civil' post Ron... I didn't realize that you are a Vet. Teribus must be your new wind up... Hmmmm... Still seems to me that you're spouting the 'standard liberal lines'... and suprize suprize... ya hooked a right-winger!

Bobert, old boy... why don't you pick up your guitar in the other room there... and stay in there for a few days with a new tuning or sumpin... K? Yer bein' a li'l wacky (er than normal) and yer jus mekkin us werrie 'bout cher mennal stite... Don't prove "GUEST A" right and me wrong... Do it for ME, Bobert... ;^)
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:25 PM

Well gol danged, ttr.... Iz down right.....

(Ahhhhh, BObert, what ie you all down righted 'bout????)

Well, ttr, if Iz figure it out then you be the first to know...

As fir the guitar???

Danged.... There two rooms in this house that got any heat what so ever an' the P-vine asleep in one and it's righht next to this one so I can't exactly play in it either...

I was jus' sayin' to the the P-Vine "Hey, I got a benefit to do in two weeks an' I ain't played much since it got too cold to play outside... Heckm I might have to rent me a danged room somewhere with heat so I can play....

But, hey, other than messin' with the T-Jerker, ttr, whad I do wrong???

Hey, face it, he an' buds ain't hittin' on much these days... Might o' fact, they scrapin' the bottom of the barrell...

So, hey, why not jump on 'um???? Folks like them got us in this mess... They don't deserve no "Get Outta Jail Free" cards... They gonna have to pay now....

They were wrong and we weren't....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:33 PM

As I've said, the old Teribus--even though I often disagreed with him--- seemed to make a lot more sense than this one.

I wonder if something has happened--or if it's just the nimbus of nostalgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:36 PM

But "civil" is in the mind and eye of the beholder--and I have a suspicion Teribus may possibly not consider my answer "civil". Pobre cito.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:00 AM

Ron Davies - 25 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM

"I repeat: "where there's a will...." People who wanted to fight in World War II were able to do so. Anybody who wanted to fight in Vietnam could have also done so. For example, burning with desire for combat glory as he was, G W Bush could have left school early."

OK Ron - status check:
- We have trainee pilots putting in a request that is refused, by their training officer, for the rock solid reasons they have not completed their training and they have not got the requisite 500 hours on type logged.
- We have a temporary assignment programme that is being wound down
- We have an aircraft type that was already in the process of being withdrawn from the theatre of operations. This aircraft type being the one that the pilot in question has just been declared operational on.

Now then, registered Republican, 3-year veteran, Ron, can you rationally explain how requesting assignment to Vietnam under the 'Palace Guard' programme earlier than he did would have been viewed more favourably? Because my sense of logic would tell me that at that time he would be even less trained and a lot more inexperienced than when he was originally turned down - TRUE Ron??

By the way Ron, who were the "fellow students in his piloting class who were in fact going"? Or is this some more unsubstantiated drivel that will pass into the left-wing, anti-Bush, anti-war Bullshit Hall of Fame. Again apply logic to the report, they are at the same level in training, they are attempting to qualify as operational on the same type of aircraft - a type that is in the process of being withdrawn from service in theatre. Now why would they go. Now you seem to know that they 'teased' GWB (Tell me did they also 'tease' Fred Bradley?) you seem to know that they were going, so who were they?

If that was how it was reported Ron - "piloting class" ????? - Come on as a 3-year veteran, you must have had some exposure to military aviation terminology - "piloting class" ????? In the US it would Flight School, in the UK it would be Basic Air Training, NEVER "piloting class" - maybe what you read had been written by dianavan? In which case it could hardly be considered authorative. But whoever wrote the term "piloting class" hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

Besides at the time GWB and Fred Bradley asked obout 'Palace Guard' they were not attending "piloting class" they were already out of Flight School and were on Advanced Jet Training, or at Operational Training Unit stage of training (i.e. learning to fight the aircraft).

On your "Where there's a will.. " theme, the US Government might have had a few objections to young inadequately trained and inexperienced pilots manouevring their way by art and enthusiasm into a combat theatre where in all probability they will throw away their own lives (in which the US Government has just invested hundreds of thousands of dollars training), they will definitely endanger others possibly at more cost, and destroy Government Property, to whit at least one operational combat aircraft worth millions. Yeah I could see them going for that - NOT.

Ron you arguements lack logic and reason. You are almost getting as bad as Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 07:51 AM

LUDICROUS; An adjective meaning "utterly ridiculous because of being absurd, incongruous, impractical or unsuitable.

(Definition placed here to save you some time, Bobert)

When this word came to mind, I was thinking of some of your statements. But now, I realize that it pertains to me as well due to my attempts to confer with you. I still would like to believe that you are just a puton and your posts do not reflect your true 'character'. However, they seem to follow a certain pattern which leads me to believe otherwise.

I enjoy the exchangs and occasional jabs between Teribus, Ron Davies et.al. Ron D. can make sense even when I disagree with him which is most of the time.
BUT, you are a different story. I think what sums up your debating skills in a few words ia comment you made above;

            "They were wrong and we weren't."

You simply attack the poster and don't try very hard to insert opposing fact ot opinion. If I have offended anyone with my harshness or apparent of patience including a little lewdness, I apologize.
And if Bobert thinks that my no longer addressing him is a victory on his part, so be it.

By the way Bobert, I am the "little ten year girl" in the above guest post. Forgot the "A". Also, you might as well forget the carrier landing contest you mentioned as the Navy does drug testing which obviously would eliminate you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 08:59 AM

Hmmmmmm? Go get yer oatmeal, A... I think yer blood sugar is a tad low...

Hey, pal, I give lots of facts and organize my thoughts rather well... That's what you and yer buds don't like..

And yer right, T, that most of the folks who were training in the Texas Air National guard were training in aircraft that wasn't readily being used over Nam... Then first of all, why the heck train them... Cost a lot of dough to burn that fuel and maintain aircraft that, if I get yer logic, ain't of any value...

But beyond that, as I have stated on another thread, learin' in one aircraft doesn't mean you can't easilly be trained to fly another airplane... There not a lot of negative transference from one to another... Yes, switchin' to a chopper is hard but relearning a new airplane ain't all the difficult once you have the basics down... My brother, who is the licensed pilot in the family, has flown dozens of different airplanes over this 30 some years of flying and has also done simulator time, thanks to be wined and dined by the US Air Force, of military airplanes....

So yer premise, while having some validity, is weak..

And, no matter, this still does nothing to fill in the gaps where Bush can't prove he completed his contract with the tax payers who were paying for drunk frat boy to aviod real war by hiding in the National Guard... You know, the AWOL thing???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 10:42 AM

Teribus--


"Left-wing drivel", as from Time Magazine, as I recall. Not like your unassailable sources, like the Washington Times--also fondly known in the US as the "Moonie Paper". But you're not expected to know that.   You are, however, expected to do a bare minimum on the objectivity of your sources.   That would be refreshing. Sorry, the Washington Times doesn't make the cut.

If you've noticed my continuing criticisms of Bush in many threads, you may possibly, with your unsurpassed powers of observation, have noted that they usually come from the Wall St. Journal (the reporting, not the editorials). When you can quote, say the New York Times reporting as supporting your view, we will be approaching equilibrium in reliability of sources.

Congratulations, however, on overcoming your temper. Things go much better when you do--in life generally. You don't need to thank me--it's a pleasure to give you advice on making your life better.



Bush did not want to fight in Vietnam--do you deny that? He however was not shy at advocating that others do so. Do you deny that?

In my book that's spelled H Y P O C R I S Y.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:14 AM

No answers then Ron. But there again I wasn't really expecting any, even from someone who "does their homework" as well as you. By the bye, if you ever could be accused of "doing your homework" you would have noted that the Washington Times was referred to in the quoted text extracted from the source document, I did not state that the Washington Times was the source, which was - www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

Amos - 24 Nov 05 - 03:35 PM

"ANd "inquiring about" is not at all identical with "requesting", T. So far I have seen no evidence he offered any intent to act on the information."

Complete red herring Amos, doesn't matter if he "inquired" or "requested" - the answer was no


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:18 AM

Aerospace quoted the Washington Times. Don't you read your own citations?

George Bush did not want to fight in Vietnam. Do you deny that? He was not shy about advocating that others do so. Do you deny that?

Answer the questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

Excuse me. Answer the questions-- please.

We want to keep this as civil as possible, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM

Ron Davies - 27 Nov 05 - 10:18 AM

"Aerospace quoted the Washington Times." - Good boy that's what I said. The Washington Times was not my "unassailable source" as stated by yourself remember -

Ron D....."Left-wing drivel", as from Time Magazine, as I recall. Not like YOUR unassailable sources, like the Washington Times--also fondly known in the US as the "Moonie Paper". But you're not expected to know that.   You are, however, expected to do a bare minimum on the objectivity of your sources.   That would be refreshing. Sorry, the Washington Times doesn't make the cut."


Ron D asks ....."George Bush did not want to fight in Vietnam. Do you deny that?" I don't know, why don't you ask him.

Ron D asks......"He was not shy about advocating that others do so. Do you deny that?" I don't know, why don't you ask him.

Now that your questions have been answered to the best of my ability what about answering those put to you. I won't be holding my breath

By the way how are all those people doing at "piloting classes" ? - Don't tell me, I don't know, why don't you ask them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 01:19 PM

So where do you think Aerospace got the info?--you're certainly defending your sophistry award tenaciously.


Am I to understand that you believe Bush was looking forward to serving in Vietnam? Yes or no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 01:23 PM

Aerospace quoted the Washington Times. Most people who understand English would say that makes the Washington Times the source.

Too bad you have a problem with English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 03:15 PM

I'm sorry guys... This polarized thread drift is quite simply... Krappola. Take it outside, or stick to the topic... Which as I recall... Is the nature of the division between the "red blooded American conservatives", and the "neo-con extremist" conservatives...

What the heck are you guys on about anyway?

Your pet polaritied topic to trot out your pet polaritied issues? Yeh well... I've done it to... Been there, done that.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:57 PM

Well, I will say this... First of all, the Washington Times has a dynamite sports section...

But secondly, like Ron has observed, there's not even a fine line between their news and editorial departments... I remember the Clinton years and I dare say that in the eight years that Clinton was in office that the Washington Times didn't miss more than a handfull of days having a negative article about Clinton on their front page...

Notr that I liked Clinton much but their slant was to use their news department to dig and dig and investigate and, most of the time, creat news where there was no news... I mean the most obscure things that Clinton did made bold headlines...

But don't believe me... Google yer way into their archives... Will make fir some interesting reading...

Compare that the utter pass that Bush got from both the Washington Post and the New York Times in not asking the hard questions in Bush mad-dash to war it it's no wonder that most folks on the left side of the isle are highly suspect of the corpoprate owned media...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:25 PM

100th post brought to you by ME !


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:17 PM

Sorry Thomas--

If you're a parent (and maybe even if you're not), you must realize that kids (or threads) will grow up out of your control.

In case you're not willing to investigate, this has morphed into a thread on whether Bush was a hypocrite for never finding time to fight in Vietnam, while urging that others fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM

If you want to tie it, at least tenuously, to the thread you could say that GHW Bush was a genuine military hero.

George W Bush was----- well, not one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM

K... fine then.

I don't share your conviction on this one, Ron. Far as I'm concerned, you are attacking Bush's character based on little or no evidence... Looks like a bunch of wishful thinking, which, it seems to me... is wishing the worst of the President.

Aspirsions can not make the world safer... and you can quote me to your kids.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

Ahhhhhh, exactly what have you seen in Bush's life, ttr, that demonstrates that Bush has any level of character or integrity???

Ahhhh, becuae he says he's a Christain??? Or aginst abortion???

Hey, how about the lies he told to get the US into an immoral war???

Do you have a clue how many innocent women, like yer mom, and how amhy kids, like yer brothers and sisters, have been killed by the Bush war machine... Think about yer mom fir just one friggin' second...

Ain't no rhyme in the friggin' world mean as much to me as my mom... Maybe yer's ain't worth a crap... Sorry, mine is... An' so are the moms that Bush bombed into oblivain like they never existed because they were Muslim...

If this is yer position, ttr, then please start a thread entilted "Sorry we killed yer mom. Mine's fine."

Even rhymes...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: iancarterb
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 11:42 PM

I did not read all the rest of the thread up to this point, but skipped down to point out that since less than 10 percent of the US population control 90 percent of the wealth, it means that providing only fifty percent of the tax revenue is still extremely regressive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 12:25 AM

According to 'Iraq body count' somewhere between 27,000 and 30,000 civillians have died as a result of the war in Iraq. So what's that come out to... about 5000 moms?

I'm not condoning war in Iraq, or anywhere else, Boberto...

George W. Bush is President of the United States... and although you seem to be the sorest of losers, he did win this time around. I don't know what more character assessment he needs at this point.

Fact of the matter is, that as a Christian, you should know better than to hate your enemies. Hate can solve nothing. By being such a spoil-sport, you are perpetuating (becoming) the man you think you despise. But you do not know George Bush, Boberto... The hatred you feel is only a figment of your imagination... and it is hurting you.

If you wish to dispute his policies... then do so with clarity, ambition and compassion... but the President's character belongs to all of us, and when any one of us casts aspirsions at him... it only hurts us all...

Like Frank Zappa said... "shut up and play yer guitar"...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 04:35 AM

Sorry Thomas--

Neither you nor anybody else has come up with any information to counter the data which indicate pretty clearly that G W Bush never intended to fight in Vietnam, did advocate that others do so, had opportunity to use very expensive taxpayer-provvided piloting instruction to prosecute the war he professed to believe in, and at least countenanced the trashing of the reputation of a man who did in fact fight in Vietnam.

That's hypocrisy in my book; it sticks in my craw, and I think it's part and parcel of the most despicable and dangerous administration---- (for needlessly endangering the whole world in making Iraq the incubator of of world terrorism,, which it emphatically was not before Bush's invasion)----- the US has ever seen. (Hope you can fight your way through that sentence-I'd hate to diagram it)



It seems clear that anybody with a spark of decency might well feel the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:03 AM

I don't hate anyone, ttr. I do, however, hate bad behavior... There are rasons that Bush *might* have won the 2004 election and most of them are because the other fraternity didn't offer anything and historicall war presidents are re-elected...

However, it is not a given that Bush actually won this one either... The exit polls, fir the first time since being used were way off, especially in the swing state of Ohio...

And lastly, as a Christian, my Faith won't allow me to stand aside and ignore the heathenish policies of the Bush administration... They are not pro-Christ...

Jesus warns of us "hypocrits" who will take us to war and "lift not a finger" when it comes to the actual fighting... Hwe extoles us to be very leary of such folks... I will be glad to furnish you the actual passsges if you like... (But later... time to go to work...)

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 12:59 PM

Go, Barbara Go!

If she pulls this off, she's got my vote in 2008.

Barbara Bush for President!
ttr...;^)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 02:04 PM

Nice link, TTR -- I am borrowing from it!! :)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 03:29 PM

Hmmmph. The acorn didn't fall far from that tree...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 05:13 PM

Great link, ttr... And the comments were equally intertaining... I'm sure my buddy, Amos, read each and every one of them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:46 AM

Hey, what exactly is a spark of decency?

I suppose I have been exposed to a Republican controlled media too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 01:48 PM

Donuel--


I think, Kerry, for instance, had it. So does John McCain--Republicans can have it--but the current standard-bearer wouldn't know it if it hit him over the head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 03:14 PM

With all due respect Ron... Please define what 'it' is! This 'spark of decency' myth of regency is too mysterious for me, and many others...

Once again, Ron, you turn up the volume... but unless you are trying to be vague, your content is sketchyatbest...

Tell me, Ron... what's in it for you... GWB is a stranger to you.

Hmmmmmm?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 03:23 PM

There is a very sure phenomenon which elicits the description "a spark of decency". It includes the ability to takes one's own actions into account and to review them with some humility, to remember that there are principles higher than self-serving, and a modicum of genuine (rather than staged) compassion.

I concur with Ron's assessment that this small but ineluctable light is absent from the eyes of the current Resident.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 03:46 PM

K then Amos...

But ... just 'cause you can't see it... doesn't mean it isn't there...

It could be said then... that anyone with a 'spark of decency' would never condone abortion as a form of birth control.

Are you sure you want to go there?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 04:22 PM

"Spark of decency." Formally put, that is a sense of ethics:   it involves doing the right thing, even if it is not to your advantage to do so. A simple example of this would be when you see someone drop a large bill and not notice it. You have a choice. It would be to your advantage to pick it up and pocket it. But "a spark of decency" tells you to pick it up and give it back to the person who dropped it.

It also involves honoring your word. Keeping promises. If you say you'll do something, people may be depending on that, and if you fail to do what you promise, you're letting a lot of people down. There are situations in which this can be disastrous. If you sign up for the Air National Guard and then play hooky, that's not keeping a promise. To order other people to do what you are unwilling—or afraid—to do, is not ethical in any decent person's book.

On a broader scale, it is not the ethical thing to give tax cuts to a lot of people who already have money enough to live well for many lifetimes, then making up the loss in the national treasury by cutting funds for such things as food stamps, Medicaid, and education, that millions of people who are not so fortunate depend on. It also involves such things as not endangering an entire city by cutting federal funding earmarked for repair and maintenance of levees so you can use the money to fight an illegal war. Not to mention lying to the Congress and the nation's citizens in an effort to seduce them into supporting the war. I even won't go into the matter of destroying a country and slaughtering tens of thousands of people to gain a geopolitical advantage. I'll let you work that one out for yourself.

I could go on, but you get the point. A "spark of decency" sounds like a small thing, but it isn't.

Don Firth

P. S. "Abortion as birth control" is a diversion from the point, and a subject of a whole different discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM

Not so Don...

A 'spark of decency' is not so clean cut and issue as you portray. It's not something one person has and another does not. The 'spark of decency' that you feel may have little in common with GWB's... but because you are more 'gifted' at 'public self appraisal'... does not mean that you are more ethical.

From another point of view... a person who systematically attempts to assassinate the character of someone they have little or no first hand knowledge of... who finds that a one sided appraisal of issues is 'appropriate propaganda'... who's critical-mental facillities are more important to themselves than their own spiritual growth and the awakening gift of love... who's concept of 'civil liberties' is more guided by Hollywood's calculated profit motives than by true moral convictions... who feel that 'progressives' have a 'special privilege' to 'play God' by concocting 'new moralities' to suit every new passing fancy and fad...

...hasn't even got a 'spark of decency'...

The point I'm making here? Well it's this. ...That the use of this phrase in arguement is just plain inflammitory ad hominem 'other side' bashing. It's use in any dissagreement can only be construed as an attack on the moral fiber of the recipient... and the fact is... it is far too often used by 'ethics challenged' individuals for the short term win of the political soundbyte...

K?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

ttr, you keep belaboring the point that we don't know the president of the United States 'personally'. A public official is judged - and fairly so - by what he or she espouses, and more to the point, enacts.

Since we KNOW the president has mired this country in blood, debt, global disrespect, and shame to us all, what else do we really need to know about him?

YOU may not feel shame that we have a person like that at the helm of this ship of state, but you CANNOT dispute the other lovely items.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 06:34 PM

...and belabor I shall...;^)

A person's fitness for democracy is closely aligned with their treatment of the opposition. Reviling the person... and pointing out miscrepancies in administrative policy are two different things...

If GWB is a puppet, for example... every reference to him that is made in derision... Pleases mightily the puppet master.

If he is calling all the shots himself... then you ought to reconsider your assessment of his mental facillities... whether he is wrong or right.

Are you so sure of your judgements as to be able to assign blame on third and fourth-hand information?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 06:38 PM

TTR - Whether he is a puppet or the master himself makes very little difference. Either way, his mental facillities are questionable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:04 PM

OK dianavan... if you say so! Actually, it makes all the difference in the world to me... but it was meant as an example, and a metaphor...

Loads of stupid people are smart, and many brilliant folks are idiots... are you certain you know the difference?

When they had Clinton down for the count... did you believe them?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

Even with a maximum of spiritual growth it would be difficult, nay foolish to love a person who takes one's own actions as gospel and to view them as God's commandment, who demonstrates that there are no principles higher than self-serving, and accept staged compassion as a means to an end. As for knowing GWB, I would find it suspect for anyone who wants to know him.

W's mental faculties shows an arrested emotional development and early long standing cerebral damage while Ronald Reagan showed the onset of organic brain disease 7 years before it was publicized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM

Thomas, you are ignoring the truth. Forget about his mental capacities- look at what he has done to this country.

Take two for starters:

* Do you agree with the debt that he has loaded onto the next generations - and is not done with yet?
* Do you agree that he had a right to take our country to war - on false pretenses?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:18 PM

Gosh Donuel... that may be THE nastiest post I have ever read.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:28 PM

Just in case your head runs out of sand:

Don't You Feel Better Now?

The U.S. is at great risk for more terrorist attacks because Congress and the White House have failed to enact several strong security measures, members of the former Sept. 11 commission said Sunday.

"It's not a priority for the government right now," said the former chairman, Thomas Kean, ahead of the group's release of a report Monday assessing how well its recommendations have been followed.

"More than four years after 9/11 ... people are not paying attention," the former Republican governor of New Jersey said. "God help us if we have another attack."

And on another subject, Alan Greenspan has changed his tune.
GASP!! Raise Taxes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:35 PM

I don't believe that GWB has done either of those things, Ebbie.

The Mainstream American lifestyle did.

GWB is unable to tell us the lies we Americans want to hear... and are used to hearing. Are you sure that inability is 'stupid and mean'... maybe it's kind, truthful and ingenuous.

I think we are in a 'time of transition'... for a much needed reallocation of our energies and resources...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:38 PM

Whoop de do. I give up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM

Whether he is a bruised and badger nincompoop who might make a decent fourth for bridge or at least miniature golf, or a true psych seeking to destroy, he has no business pursuing and seizing the reins of leadership. You may recall that one of his campaign assertions was, "I know how to lead". I don't know who believed him, but they should have asked whether he was heading south or not.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

As you wish, Ebbie...

Amos... Millions of people like him... each of them for their own reasons. I suppose you're saying that all of them are stupid too?

I'm just pointing out that Stupidity knows no political boundaries...;^)
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:55 PM

It certainly does not. I think, however, that birds of a feather do flock together, and people who share certain similar blind-spots also like the comfort of each others' consent and agreement, just as drinkers, or smokers, or drug users or joggers or weight-lifters do.

I think everyone is stupid in some ways, including me; but I am much more kindly inclined toward those who are trying to grow less so. And who take at least some care that their blind spots do not harm others.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 08:08 PM

Aye!... and it is this 'flocking together' that fuels misconseptions and exascerbates misunderstandings. The alliances of our business associates should be independent of our alliances with Religious associates... and both should be independent of our poitical convictions.

Take the pressure off of those around you... and stop trying to manipulate them. Live well and listen well... for the answers are all here... inside us!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 08:36 PM

"The alliances of our business associates should be independent of our alliances with Religious associates... and both should be independent of our political convictions"


That's a good point you make TTR. Pity your beloved GWB doesn't agree with you, isn't it?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 09:02 PM

On the surface, Don T, I compliment you for a nice parlay! Well done!

On closer inspection, however... The changing of the direction of the 'great pendulum' of our democratic process makes us all feel a little out of control. GWB is an emblem in this process... not the cause.

Understanding the causes that underlie the drama... now there is a challenge for us all!

Liberals were once a free thinking bunch... But, I'm sorry to say... those days are over. For now, anyway... their party line is stagnant and in need of aeration... dontchathink?

When the pendulum goes against your political grain... find grace and dignity in learning from the mistakes WE ALL have been making.

If and when it starts to swing your way... be thankful and graceful about that too.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

Hey. I couldn't give a flyin' crap as to wherther Bush is an idiot or a genious... Don't matter one bit to me.. I don't hate the guy either but...

... I disagree with just about everything the man does... he hgas been handed on a silver platter one opportunity after another to the do the right thing but5 when we look closely at any policy of his what we see is a rip off of the working class and redisribution of income to the rich...

And if we bother to look beyond this we find that our congressmen and women don't write our legislation anymore... Lobbiest, who9 give big vucks to get folks elected, write it...

No, this ain' just about Bush, though he lied to get the US into war, but a larger problem of money in politics...

Yeah, look at the Medicaid perscription progarm fir axample... Turns out it was written by the drug and insurance companies... Can I give you book, chapetr and verse??? Well, no, the crooks are purdy good at hiding their stuff but I will tell you, ttr, that this $270B won't help seniors more than it will help the drug and insurance companies... Time will prove me correct on this point...

And this program is one of the few policies t6hat Bush even has the slightest chance of showin' he has any bit of decentcy...

Not...

No Child Left Behind has become "No Child Left Unrecruited" and on the education side, Bush won't write the checks... What does that tell you about decency, ttr??? A kid ain't worth educatin' but sho nuff fine fir cannon fodder???

I mean, I can't believe that you would try to find the "Jesus" in Bush 'cause I've looked, and as a follower of Christ, fir the life of me can't see it so much a glimmer...

What I see is nothin' but pride and arrogance... And I have given this man the benifit of the doubt over ahd over...

I mean, let' look at Katrina...

I was thinkin, "Hey, Bush is due to do the right thing here". But he didn't... He went right on vacationing??? And then went to gibve a speech in California while the largest natural disaster on my life time was occruing in Mississippi and Louisiana...

That says more about decentcy then anything I can think of...

Hey, I know decent folks... Some are plain ol' country folks but that don't matter...

Bush ain't got it in him...

At some point in time in his life his pwersonality developed and it is badly flawed... Pysco.logists refer to folks like Bush as folks suffering from "personality disorders"... This goes well beyond quirks here...

This man has never had to be help accountable and now that he is in that posotion, he don't like it and guess waht??? There are enough people with money who are having their way with him that they are willing to spend whatever, anbd twist as many arms in the media as are needed, to prevent the American people from having a glimpse of just how far this man has slipped into dillusion... He surrounds himself with "yes" people, he doesn't like others folms opionions so he doesn't even listen to them...

That, my friend, is a case study of folks who have "personality disorders"... Is he psycotic? No...

... but has more demons than a Prersident should have to represent this country...

Doc Bobert

(7 years working in the jail, another 11 working with menatlly ill people...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM

The ever graceful Boberto has waltzed in with his 3/4 counterpoint! And his eloquence is bespoken through his lovely partner Miss Par T. Line

Big business takeover? Corporate control of media and Government? War, Lies, and Videotape? Redistribution of wealth to the few that don't need more? Inadequate response to a horrific natural disaster? The degradation of civil liberties durring wartime?
Confusion as to the true meaning of 'Freedom'?

...and you are telling me that these are problems that never occured before GWB became the President of the United States? Hmmmmmm? They are all his fault anyway?

If you are proposing out and out revolution, Boberto... Now might not be the best time... Be careful what you wish for... What if these become the 'Good Ol' Days' we look back on with nostalgic longing... Because it's happened over and over in human history...

The unpleasant side effect of Democracy is always with us... but these growing pains bring us into more mature years... and ideally... better judgement.

We can do better... and we will... if we can just keep from making a bigger mess of it along the way...;^)

All the best!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

ttr says - "Loads of stupid people are smart, and many brilliant folks are idiots... are you certain you know the difference?"

Hmmm - I don't know any stupid people who are smart but I do know brilliant idiots.

Actually, Bush falls into the category of stupid people who are rich and have a powerful family. Lots of those idiots, around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM

"A 'spark of decency' is not so clean cut an issue as you portray."

I can't say that I agree, Thomas. It's pretty clear-cut to me. I think everyone has that spark of decency within them. In some, it shines like a beacon. In others, it's buried so deep that you wonder if they have it at all. Whether or not one chooses to listen to that "still, small voice" is the true test of a person's character.

I don't know Bush personally, but as someone once said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." When a man who claims to be a "compassionate conservative" shows compassion only for his rich friends and does it at the expense of the millions who actually need a little compassion, that pretty well says it. If he is a Christian, as he claims to be, there are a few passages in the Bible about compassion that I would recommend that he read. He seems to have missed those parts.

And anyone who got his influential father to pull strings for him so he could avoid getting drafted when he was legally as eligible as hundreds of thousands of other young men, then starts a war as cavalierly as he did with so little reason . . . well . . . I don't have to know him personally to know all I need to know about him.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 12:45 AM

And so... superb reply Don... Quite civil and well spoken man that you are...

Ahhh but,... where is it said that constant complaining and fault finding is effective and healing behavior? What if GWB needs our support right now? Could it be possible that all the negativity is just too distracting? What could he do differently that would bring you happiness and contentment?

Many folks who are superb with their sharp tounges and hypercritical analysis... stop there. What is the point of such self serving behavior as that, praytell? Where are the solutions we so smugly assume are obvious? Everyone knows what the problems are...

Having delegated GWB to take charge does not exclude us from the responsibility some say he is shirking... But he is our President RIGHT NOW! If he needs your help... and I hear you saying you know better than he does, what to do... Why do you refuse to help him? This is no longer about parties and elections... Is it really out of your realm of possibilities to wish him well? ...to encourage him to be his best? Or are you content to ride on the coattails of his shortcommings... puffing yourselves up with each new 'disclosure'? What good can come from it?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:41 AM

They say that outsiders often get a better view of the situation than those who are directly involved, TTR.

As a UK citizen, what I am seeing is a huge, and widespread, dissatisfaction with the current US government, with the chief executive rightly taking much of the flak.

You say "Don't sit there complaining, support the man and help him to do a better job".

Fine words indeed, and they might even have some validity were we discussing a man who is willing to take on board the concerns of his people, and act on them where that is the righ and decent thing to do.

But we are not discussing such a man, as evidenced by the appalling mess that he has made of leading what used to be one of the great bastions of freedom and democracy.

When your opponent refuses to listen to reasoned argument, refuses to accept constructive criticism, lies in an attempt to justify international aggression, supports the haves at the expense of the have nots, and runs your country to the brink of bankruptcy, your support is the last thing you should give him.

This would be to remove all opposition, even ineffective opposition, and open the way for even worse unchecked excesses on his part.

I find it difficult to believe that this is what you really would like to see.

Regardless of who is actually pulling the strings, GWB has proved over and over again that he is too small a man for the job in hand, and it is well past time that his supporters ceased their blind allegiance, and took stock of what is happening to a once great nation.

What I would really like to see is republicans and liberals acting together to remove this blot on the honour, and the international credibility of the USA, for the greater good of the whole world.

Your country is heading towards a situation where the world will feel it necessary to co-operate in self defence, and isolate you.

Even school children eventually gang up on the local bully. Bush apologists should think long and hard about that, IMHO.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:52 AM

"Doc Bobert"??????

How about "Physician, heal thy self."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM

Thanks Don T... That is the BRILLIANT post I've been waiting for!

Americans aren't working together well, for the most part... especially when it comes to politics. What we have now, is a supreme tendency towards self aggrandizing critisizm of others, polarized political motivations that haven't much to do with compassion (or reality, for that matter), and little or no 'respect' for the opinions of others. Tactics of provocation... through slander, dirty tricks, and general disrespect are the norm... ...and GWB was elected out of the rudiments of this disfunctional social climate... only to have it intensified exponentially by 9/11...

We have a lot more in common than we think.

The roots of this cultural dilemma go very deep... and lead us essentially to the need for a spiritual awakening to every level of American impulse and organization.

It is predicated by a realistic assessment of the mess we've been making for decades... and it begins with the hard work and commitment to cleaning it up together.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:09 PM

Below is a running total of the U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq War. The number is based on Congressional appropriations.   
The War in Iraq Costs
$224,329,894,588



D'ye think a third of that could fund an international renewable energy infrastructure, given the right ram-rod and leader? I do.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:19 PM

No, ttr, Americans aren't working well together becuase they aren't together.

Look up "oligarchy" in yer dictionary and come back and tell us where "those outside the power circle" come in to working together...

I mean, fir gosh sakes, when Bush went around the country doing his so-called "town meetings" on Social Security reform, each and every participant was eitgher interogated completely or had been okayed by the inner circle... That, my friend, is not working together... Whoes choice was that? Those who were kept out???

Example 2: When the Medicaid perscription plan was being written how many Dems were invited into the work sessions where 100% of the bill was written??? None... Hmmmmm?

Se where we're going with this, ttr...

Yeah, if you agree with Bush's policies then yer allowed a place at the table... If you don't, thewn yer out...

Yeah, I'm real interested in why you think I should change my core values in order to work together??? Taht's not working together... That is called capitulation, my firend...

You need to read a little Jefferson about democracy...

Somehow, you've got some serious gaps on how it is supposed to work...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

I have to agree with Bobert on this one TTR. Flattered as I might be by your good opinion of my post, what I see is the liberal group expressing genuine concerns about the leadership qualities (if any) of GWB, while the republicans give the most convincing portrayal ever of an ostrich, by refusing to see the truth of those concerns.

The republican position seems to be along the lines of "There is a Santy Claus, and Elvis is alive and well". Not so fellas, and only when you admit it will it be possible to deal with the problem.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM

Thomas, one of the most essential rights the citizens of a democracy have is the right to criticize the government. Not only do they have the right, they have the duty to do so when they deem the criticism to be justified. If the citizens do not have that right, it is not a democracy.

What one person perceives as "constant complaining and fault-finding" might be another person's well-considered critical analysis. Can this be effective healing behavior? Yes, if the person or persons being criticized are willing to listen and reflect on what is being said. I am certainly not alone in my criticisms of Bush and his administration. I am only one of many voices. And rather than being negative, pointing out the errors, misjudgments, and failures of the Bush administration is a positive step toward correcting those errors. But since Bush, et al, are convinced that they, and only they, are right, the most effective criticism is directed, not to them, but to the electorate at large, in the hopes that the next election will produce a less error-prone, more open and thoughtful administration.

Would a different administration bring me happiness and contentment? Probably not, certainly not entirely. But if it alters the current potentially disastrous direction the country is headed, in both our domestic and foreign policies, and redirects it onto a more truly compassionate course, that would certainly be an improvement. I don't look for Nirvana, not in this lifetime. But I think we should try to get our own house in order before we try to push our way of life onto the rest of the world. Considering how far we have drifted from the characteristics and requirements of a true democracy, we have a long way to go before we're ready to try to persuade the rest of the world to follow our lead. It is far better to show by example than to try to enforce "democracy" at the point of a gun. The self-contradiction of that position should be patently obvious. I sincerely believe that the Bush administration is taking this country on a long step backward to the nineteenth century, if not into a new version of the Dark Ages. That may sound extreme, but I can give you a long list of reasons why, not just me, but a fair number of historians in particular, think that is exactly the direction we are going.

And I don't regard the analysis as "hypercritical," nor do I think it is "self-serving." The solutions, which are obvious, have been stated many times by many people, but the administration considers these courses of action to be unacceptable to them. More influential people than I am have stated them time and time again, but Bush simply clings to his present course and, despite growing evidence that all is not going well, rejects any and all criticisms and suggestions.

Do I know better than he does? It may be hubris on my part to say that I do, but then I (and many others) can see those obvious solutions that he rejects, so I am far from alone in that. I don't refuse to help him. But if he refuses to listen to many people more authoritative and influential than me, then he is certainly not going to heed anything that a private citizen like me has to say, even if I did have access to him (if he won't even meet with to Cindy Sheehan, he certainly won't listen to me). Do I wish him well? I wish the country well. And the rest of the world. Including Iraq. And no, I am not content to "ride on the coattails of his shortcomings." That's why I'm doing all this "complaining and fault-finding." Nor do I "puff [myself] up" with each new disclosure of Bush's mistakes and malfeasance. I find it downright depressing that someone in his position and with his power is so unable (or unwilling) to see the obvious, even when it is constantly being pointed out to him. No, I do indeed wish him well; I wish him enlightenment.

I highly recommend a book I read some years ago, The March of Folly by the late Pulitzer Prize winning historian and author, Barbara W. Tuchman (who also wrote The Guns of August). In it, Ms. Tuchman describes the propensity of governments and rulers to act against their own self-interest amid an overwhelming preponderance of evidence, easily perceived and pointed out at the time (by people often labeled "complainers and fault-finders," I might add), and proceed to lead their countries, or at the very least, their reign or tenure in office, to imminent disaster or sometimes outright catastrophe. Ms. Tuchman gives several examples of rulers and governments acting in this manner, and after absorbing and understanding the material in this book, it's difficult to look at what is going on in this country right now without being just a bit appalled. "The March of Folly" seems to be an apt description of the manner in which the Bush administration is leading this country.

What good can come from my "complaining and fault-finding?" There is a mid-term election coming up in 2006, and a presidential election coming in 2008. This is a chance to restore some of the "checks and balances" that the Founding Fathers felt were essential to inhibiting the irreversible take-over of a potential tyrannical administration. Between now and then, I hope that my "complaining and fault-finding" persuades a sufficient number of people to depose the neo-conservative administration and replace it with one that is less imperialistic, more reality centered (an expression some Bush administration officials regard with contempt!), cognizant of the provisions of the Constitution, and responsive to the needs and real security of the nation's citizens.

By the way, thanks, Thomas. It's nice to be able to exchange views with folks who are civil and don't resort to put-downs and insults when they see things differently. Willingness to listen to others and consider what they say is one of the essential mechanisms of a true democracy, even at a time when the conventional response is to denigrate those with whom one disagrees. Civility in debate is in short supply these days, both here on the 'Cat and in the 3D world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:18 PM

Thankee, Don...

Yeah, when yer part of the in crowd it's real easy to say "HJey, yer either with ue or against us" withoput givin' one danged thought that you might be wrong... Or maybe if not wrong, at least not playin' the strongest hand...

I have taught "creativity" classes on occaasion and I pick some thing like a "cindar block" and ask folks to likst as many uses for a cindar block as they can in 3 minutes... Well, most come up with about 20 or 25 uses, then when everyone has read their uses aloud and then I redo the quiz with like automobile tires in the second round everyone has at5 least 5 more uses than they had with the cindar blocks in round one...

What this means is that the more folks that are involved in the process of finding solutions to problems the greater the chances of finding the most acceptable solution...

This is my probelm with Bush... He thinks he has all the answers and therefore excludes many answers which might be more correct than his...

Unfortunately, this has been a life's pattern with this guy... He has ruined every business that he has been associated with because of pride...

Pride come before the fall...

I mean, not to be blowing my own horn, have been successful at everything I have ever accomplished and I owe that to thwe abil;ity to seek out folks and listen to them and then weigh is what I have learned.... That's what successfull people do... They listen...

Bush only like to talk, and talk, and talk.... Fine, make a great guy tp get drunk with but not anyone to run yer company or your country...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM

I'll second Don Firth's comment about polite, civilised, debate.

Whatever the differences of opinion, it is pleasant to deal with people who show respect for others, and willingness to attack the issues, rather than the debaters.

I do have one other comment (inadvertently omitted from previous posts) about the current situation.

If an individual in any country caused the deaths of a large number of people, then remarked that God told him to do it, the certain result would be lifelong incarceration in a secure mental institution.

America has at present a chief executive who has done precisely that, and he is still at large. Cause for concern? It certainly scares the hell out of me folks.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM

Wow, Don... I am so outclassed by your excellent posts... and this last one in particular is quite a gem. Kudos to you my good man! You put your thoughts into such fine orderliness, and your debate style is the most tenatious and well thought out format I've seen recently...

I think that intelligent sobriety can bring us new solutions to the present problems we are now facing as a Country, and as citizens of this country. In case you haven't noticed, I am beginning with what I see as the breakdown of effective communication, and the current day derailment of the proper 'exchange of ideas' that is requisite to healthy Democracy. My concerns are specifically procedural here...

Attacking the character of the President is, in my judgement... a bad 'modus opperandi'. It causes each and every person who may in fact 'like' the president... to turn you off, 'cause you just turned them off. It just doesn't matter anymore who started it. If you really want to reach the contender... you must 'try' to reach them. This isn't about who is the 'rightest', or who 'saw it comming first'... because as soon as this issue is more or less resolved, others will surface... Such is the nature of life.

But... the left is behaving badly... like so many sore losers... exibiting all the character flaws that they accuse GWB of having. This is not the smartest possible plan. OK... so you feel excluded, used, ignored, disenfranchised, and bullied. Who hasn't? Liberals and conservatives alike have let these feelings fester... and have decided (quite subconsciously) to return like for like... an eye for an eye... and all that. The effect of all this... is that it effectually lowers the bar to the level of dysfunction, bullying, and pouting. Bad idea, dontchathink?

Around here, folks have been saying the same stuff in the same way... for five or six years now. Is it working? No. It's the wrong tree. Sorry, but thats the truth. Millions of people voted for GWB, and like him. Thats OK. This is a Democracy, still... whether you like it or not!;^) The 'issue' here, is whether or not you can participate in, and support your democracy when you didn't get your way. There is plenty of room here to be who you are, and if you so choose... you can point out what you see the 'emperor' wearing... But you'd better change your attitude or we won't see you on CNN...

On the other hand... cat calls from the peanut gallery haven't impeached a president yet, and are unlikely to... ever. They just make us all nervous.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:51 AM

TTR, if you can find a way to induce your millions of voters to recognise, and discuss, the issues in a manner similar to our present debate, without descending to personal recrimination, then there is hope of a return to the American ideal.

Nothing worth having was ever achieved by a schoolyard slanging match.

However, the sticking point is still the fact that GW holds his current position as a result of financial support, and media spin, rather than by merit and capability, and it is the refusal of his republican voters to recognise that the job is too big for him, that allows him to take a destructive course, without being held to account.

The cynical disregard for the needs of the less well off in your country are a disgrace to a nation which once believed in equality, and freedom for all.

However popular he may be, your citizens are suffering as a result of his devotion to the corporate success of his financial backers, and that is not what the job is supposed to be about.

GW is said by his apologists to be merely the fall guy, manipulated by shadowy puppet masters in the background, as though that absolves him of responsibility for the current state of the Union.

If that is the truth, maybe one might expect him to rebel, or resign. That he does neither indicates to me that he is in agreement with the policies of those manipulators, and that their policies are his policies too.

Having recognised that running the USA is beyond his capabilities, one might be more than a little worried that he has added to those duties the policing of large portions of the world beyond your national borders.

When , and only when, his supporters recognise these limitations, it will be possible to seek ways to remedy the situation. I only hope it will not come too late to avoid bankruptcy for the world's largest democracy.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:54 AM

That last sentence should read

When , and only when, his supporters recognise these limitations, it will be possible to seek ways to remedy the situation. I only hope it will not come too late to avoid moral and financial bankruptcy for the world's largest democracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:25 AM

No responses from me till Thursday, as I'm off to St. Thomas's in London for an angiogram, and I'm staying with my family for a couple of days.

I look forward to continuing this debate when I get back.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM

Well, this should bring a few catcalls............

Due to the attacks of the Democrats which consist of nothing but just plain derogatory commentary, nothing substantial, I am presently content with a lot of GWBs leadership.

There is no alternative available at the present time..


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:25 PM

by Kevin Sites Mon, Nov 28 2005, 6:59 PM

ETERBIL, Iraq -- It's Friday at dusk. People are strolling through the gardens, lounging on the grass, reading, eating snacks and chatting near the refreshment stand.

Zirar Abdullah poses his young son and daughter on the playground spinner, then snaps their picture in the perfectly diffused golden light.

"I come here with my family every Friday," Abdullah says. "I feel very secure. I feel free to do what I like."

video linkIt seems very much the picture of tranquility, this public park in the city of Erbil in predominantly Kurdish northern Iraq. But the setting becomes even more remarkable with the revelation of its history.

The grounds on which these people now enjoy a leisurely afternoon was once the headquarters of the Iraqi Army's 5th Legion, placed here by
Saddam Hussein to maintain control over the rebellious Kurds.

After the 1991
Gulf War, Saddam Hussein was compelled by the peace agreement to withdraw his forces from most of northern Iraq, giving the Kurds de facto autonomy over their territory.

It not only allowed the Kurds to turn this former Iraqi base into a public park, but also allowed them to create a society where, unlike the rest of Iraq, a diversified economy and democratic institutions were given a chance to develop.

The Kurds not only have survived as a people but also protected their culture, despite Saddam's reign of oppression against the population. During a 1988 campaign known as Anfal, Saddam issued a systematic series of attacks on Kurdish villages in the north, leading to the disappearance and presumed death of 182,000 people. In the single worst attack, at least 5,000 people were killed in a chemical weapons attack on the town of Halabja.

Today northern cities like Erbil and Sulaymaniyah are Iraq through the looking glass: relatively peaceful, secure and in the full throes of an economic boom. They are the polar opposite of much of the rest of the country.

Everywhere you look, building is under way. In downtown Erbil construction has begun on what is being promoted as the largest shopping mall in Iraq.

Flights from cities like Frankfurt, Dubai and Amman now arrive at Erbil's newly opened international airport. Workers are busy expanding a highway that runs between Erbil and Sulaymaniyah.

video linkLarge western-style residential developments are being created by the dozens with names like "Dream City," offering swimming pools and tennis courts -- all at western-style prices.

At a shawarma restaurant in downtown Erbil, 26-year-old Sherwan Shekahani says business couldn't be better.

"I feel like people are paid better now. They have better salaries so they go out to eat more often," he says.

And the good times have created job opportunities for those from less peaceful areas. Nawzad Eado left Mosul two months ago, he says, after his cousin, who owned a liquor store, was shot dead by terrorists.

He also works in an Erbil restaurant and is planning on staying.

"It's much more peaceful here," Eado says. "You don't have to fear the daily violence."

But part of what is fueling the huge economic growth, people say, is also fueling widespread corruption. Since it is seen as more stable than the rest of the country, northern Iraq is attracting much more foreign investment from the U.S., Europe and even regional neighbors like
Iran and Turkey -- a nation considered a longtime nemesis by the Kurds.

The Kurdish regions of northern Iraq are controlled by two main political parties, the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP), dominant in Erbil and the north along the Turkish border, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), dominant in Sulaymaniyah and areas to the eastern border.

These main political factions are also the gateway to investment here and, because of that, critics say, their leadership is growing richer by the day.

But the unwillingness of many of their critics to go on the record is also a testament to the political control the KDP and PUK exert over the region.

photo essay linkThe growth has also created a labor shortage. Furniture store owner Zana Aziz says people used to beg him for jobs at $50 a month. Now he has to pay $200-$300 a month and he still has trouble keeping the 10 workers he needs to run his business. The problem, he says, is police recruitment.

"I've lost so many workers to the police force," he says. "They sign up and make 400 or more dollars a month and only have to work a few days a week. I see many of them sitting in the coffee shops or the marketplace."

Aziz says he thinks so many new policemen have been hired the government has trouble keeping track of them, so many of them don't have to work much, but still get paid.

Many businesses have started hiring Arab workers who have traveled to the Kurdish areas from central and western Iraq, but Aziz says he's not ready to take that step.

"I'm not sure I can trust them," Aziz says. "You hear so much about suicide bombings and, also, I could be abducted. I'm afraid to do it."

Inflation is also a huge problem in northern Iraq. Aziz says a few years back he used to pay $200 a month rent for his storefront. Now he pays $1,000 and the landlord is demanding even more.

Taxi driver Hemin Salam says he's making a lot more money than he did in the past, but that's offset by the high price of spare parts for his cab and the cost of fuel. Because of problems with the oil pipeline and refinement, he's able to buy only 30 liters of fuel every three days. If his taxi runs out of gas on the wrong day, he can't work.

But while many challenges remain, the mood in northern Iraq, at least for the time being, seems nearly buoyant.

In an empty parking lot on the side of a road in Erbil, men and women link arms, form a long line and dance a traditional three-step dance in celebration for the marriage of Sangar Kamal to his bride Sirwa Luqman.

Men at the end of each dancing line swirl prayer beads and wave colorful handkerchiefs as the dancers kick out their legs, moving forward then dipping back. The celebration continues into the evening until everyone is too exhausted to continue.

Although most can speak Arabic here, Kurdish is the main language of the region now and has been since the Iraqi forces withdrew.

But now a bigger question has been forced on the Kurds after more than 14 years of autonomy: Why rejoin Iraq at all when what so many Kurds have always wanted is their own nation?

With 22 million Kurds spread throughout Iraq, Turkey and Iran, they are the largest ethnic group in the world without a country to call their own.

Many feel the U.S. has put pressure on the main political factions here to remain part of Iraq, bringing a small dose of stability into the very heart of volatility. Some experts feel the Kurds are the "X factor" -- the glue that will hold it all together if they stay, or cause Iraq to rip apart if they opt for separation.

Even within Kurdish families the question is a difficult one. Sheik Mahmoud Junaid fought the Iraqi army as part of the very first Kurdish resistance in 1961, yet he doesn't think Kurdish independence is feasible right now.

Junaid says, "Everyone knows we are happy to witness this freedom right now. But the agony is in the south and central parts of Iraq. If it remains it will be terrible for all of us."

His sons, Hussein and Sayid, disagree with their father, and believe that an independent Kurdistan would be better for everyone. Sayid also thinks coalition forces should leave all of Iraq at some point, that the sight of American tanks can provoke people.

Junaid says the Americans need to stay.

"The day the Americans leave," he says, "on the next day the Arabs will attack us. When the Americans go we will go with them," he says, only half-jokingly.

Back in Erbil Park, Zirar Abdullah echoes that underlying anxiety as he and his family get ready to go home.

"I prefer separation," Abdullah says, "but for now it's OK to live with the Iraqis. Kurdistan is now secure, but if at any point that changes we must be ready."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM

Well, ttr, I can appreciate what yopu are saying and lots of us are doing what we can where we can... Yeah, I feel completely disenfranchished in terms of how the federal government operates...

...but with that said, I have been involved with community programs and find a lot of satsisfatcion there because I have a voice...

I don't forsee ver having a voice at the federal level... I think it is so corrupt that the only voices being heard are voices of rich people... The Dems take big money from rich people so they certainly aren't going to step up...

You asked me earlier if I was for some kind of revolution. Well, yes, very much so. This is exactly what we need. A revolution where the working class revolts against the master... Now, I'm not advicating taking up arms and doing some kind of Che Gavaera thing...

What is going to occur is that eventually the aristocracy will squeeze the wiorking man just a littl e to hard and I predict it will start in the South becuase people in the South are both passionate and underpaid so they are going to be the first to revolt... I predict that within 5 years, Boss Hog won't feel afe driving his million dollar travel bus thru the South and when that occurs the revolution will have begun...

Kinda funny... Not only has the South risen again with the Southern Strategy but it will rise again to take down a corrupt federal goverment by letting those in power know, without doubt, that they have had enough of being led around like cattle with meaningless flag burning, gay marriage crap and are looking at their bills and their shrinking pay checks...

Oh yeah, wages are rising... Bull feathers... Another meaningless stat...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM

Yknow, it looks to me like the antiwar protesters here are getting their asses whipped.

All they can do is complain like toothless old women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

You know, I don't care whether anyone believes it but I would be most happy to discover that the neoconservatives were right about our illustrious leader and the direction in which his government is taking. The thing is I don't believe I ever will find any such thing to be true. This path defies logic, morality, history, and all the better instincts of humankind.

So don't for a minute think that we who are in the habit of thinking for ourselves are getting ourselves whupped. Appalled and silent at hearing such blatant ignorance is more like it.

If we ever meet, I'll buy you a beer. But don't talk politics, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

GUEST A,

You forgot to put yer mask on...

You are the biggest jerk 'round here ince MG had his little situation and guess what... Yer friggin ISP can be lobbed off just like MG was threatened with...

If you have anything intellegent to say, say it... If not, go beat off in the corner, you creep.... No, make that anonomus creep... Keep it up, GUEST, A (as in assh*le)...

BTW, you coward, I ain't hard to find so if you want some of this ol' hillbilly, bring yer cowardly self on an' you'll get you a free butt whup...

No brag, just fact, assh*le!!!

I'll even provide you with detailed direction to claim yer ass whuppin'... Heck, I'll meet you at the interstate to save you some gas...

Bobert (badest hillbilly you ever got a butt whup from, jerk-off...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM

Nobody's gettin' whupped, crowbar. Congressional elections are coming up in 2006 and Presidential elections in 2008.

Not saying Bush is a lame duck, but when he looks in the mirror in the mornings, he checks for feathers.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:43 AM

Bobert, I have review the post of the past 24 hours and can't realize wht transpired in order for you to go on the attack like you did.

Have a bad day? Or is it the realization that personal attacks are all you really have to work with?

So, Bobert is a "badass hillbilly?" Apparently half of that quote is correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM

Yeah, Don, but...

... just why are folks gonna vote fir the "We-Ain't-Them" Dems...

They are about as sorry as their rival fraternity...

Yeah, the problem with the entire scenerio is that, like their rival fraternity, they are funded by the same folks: Boss Hog and his buddies...

Plus, there are only about 10% of House seats that are competetive anymore because of 8 years of Dem gerrymandering and lots of Repb gerrimandering since 2000...

So, unless the Democratic Party swears off Boss Hogs cash and gets some spine to it, they will loose...

(But, Bobert, doesn't the party with the least cash usually loose the elections???)

Well, yeah, it does... And that's why the Dems won't get any spine 'cause that would mean that Boss Hog would quit sending the big checks and the Dems would have to scramble fir cash...

So, yeah, it looks like 2006 is a mid-ter, that clearly is the Dems to loose and they are working very hard at doing just that... Even Howard Dean hasn't been able to get thru to their cashew sized brains...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:33 PM

Well, Bobert, there are a couple of ways one can go.

One way is to support one of the minority parties such as the Greens or the Independent Party ("Independent Party." Isn't that an oxymoron?). The problem here is that the way the political system is set up in this country, "third" parties, which generally pull maybe four or five percent of the vote at best, don't stand much of a chance. The best they can do is to indicate that there is a small percentage of people who feel they are not being represented by the two "biggies." No matter how good their platforms are, they generally have little money, and about the best they can do to get the word out that they exist at all is to have a web site and maybe have their candidate get an interview or two on an NPR station. Quick! Tell me the name of the Green Party's presidential candidate in 2004. See what I mean? I can't remember it either.

Another way:   Thom Hartmann, whose articles I have linked to several times here on Mudcat, offers what is probably the most productive outlet for one's endeavors. Here it is again. This appears to be the most optimistic option. At least the mechanism is already in place. Read this article. Read it twice. Print it out and read it again. Third party advocates don't like what Hartmann says here and want to dismiss it, but both historical and current events more than amply demonstrated that what Hartmann says is true. Hate it if you like, but think hard about it. Hartmann isn't making this up. He's just pointing out the way things are. Swear! Kick! Spit! Now—read the article again. And really think about it!

Now, at the risk of being told, "Look, Firth, you've already posted this quote at least 372 times on various threads!" I will post it yet again. When you go to party meetings, keep repeating this like a mantra:
"Between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the Republican will win every time!"
                                                                                                                               —Harry S. Truman
There's an organization which, as I understand it, is based on Vashon Island, near Seattle, called "The Backbone Campaign." HERE. They're on the backs (one could say "literally") of the Democratic Party, harassing the hell out of them. When you pull up the web site, go over to the right column and click on the photo of the guy with the two girls, then scroll down for the blow-up of the back of the T-shirt and read the group's platform and what they are bugging the Dems about. These folks are seriously pissed-off, and they're doing something about it.

Forget what Boss Hogg "owns" or doesn't own. The Republican Party now represents the neo-conservatives and the Christian Right because these groups knew what they wanted, they got organized, formed a coalition with each other, then moved in and essentially took over the Republican Party. Real Republicans and real conservatives (and might I add real Christians?) are not too happy about this. They got left out in the cold along with the rest of the country. In the meantime, the Democratic Party is not organized, they're standing around with their fingers up their . . . noses . . . and wondering what the hell happened. They have no direction. The best they have come up with so far is a slogan for the 2008 campaign:   "We Can Do Better!" Oh, Jaysus! If they can't do any better than that, this country, under a Christian fundamentalist neo-conservative government, will collapse into a Dark Ages-style feudal state within the next decade or two.

It's up to you and me to get in there and kick some butt. C'mon, Bobert, you're a fighter! Subscribe to the Democratic Party's e-mail news letter and bulletins (they keep begging for money, but since I don't have much, I ignore that and make my contributions in other ways) so you have an idea of what they're up to (right now, they're just sort of groping around), and also subscribe to things like AlterNet Headlines and MoveOn. Probably you already do. Good!

It's a matter of steering the Democratic Party in the right direction ("right" direction? Lousy choice of words, all things considered, but at least it's grammatically correct). If the Dems can't figure it out—as, so far, they don't seem to be able to—then it's up to people like you and me, and the folks in the Backbone Campaign organization, and other essentially disenfranchised people to give them a direction. Drag them kicking and screaming, if necessary.

If the Dems offer a definite alternative (see the back of the Backbone Campaign T-shirt), and if it is articulated clearly and briefly, and if it resonates with a sufficiently large enough number of people as I'm sure it will, then Boss Hogg's money is not going to matter that much.

Nothing will be accomplished if all we do is just sit around bitching and complaining. Attend meetings. Talk to people. Write letters. There are lots of folks out there who believe as you do. Yell your head off. Make a real pain in the ass of yourself.

(End pep talk. Let's get crackin'!)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM

By the way, Bobert, I'm not just honkin' at you. I'm giving myself a good, swift kick at the same time.

Cheers!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM

Righto, Don!

Isn't it curious how the 'left-wing progressives' (oxymoron for sure), and the liberal establishment spend so much time infighting, and yet are self satisfyingly convinced of thier political correctness... so much so, that hubris sets in when it comes to their approach to republicans...

Yet the underlying insecurity that liberals try to hide, is that the basic confrontation of "ideas vs. reality" that symbolizes their issues with republicans... is, simply put... 'no contest'. It is their basic impatience with the "status quo" that urges them onwards... and inflates their overused egos... to a systematic psychological shortcomming... ie. 'to disagree vehemently with reality'... that unshakable bastion of careful conservatives.

Neo-cons... IMHO, are no less guilty of this... but, fact is... their core values are more condusive to the cohesiveness of their cohorts... as are Al-Quiada, apparently...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 06:45 PM

I see it differently from you, ttr... Like Bruce Sprinsteen sings, "Sooner or later it all comes down to money" and you have the upper 5% controlling 80% of the money so these folks can put lots of cash into one party or the other, or both... Given that over the last several elections that the candidate with most cash to spend on his or her campaign in 9 out of 10 races won...

So, the Dems are truly stuck in a bad situation. The Repubs have a 2 to 1 cash advantage going into the '06 election cycle and even though the population in general is far more "liberal" than "Conservative" on individual issues, the Dems are afraid to promote populist issues for fear of running off what corporate cash they are recieving because most populist issues in some fashion or another will require a larger sacrifice from Boss Hog...

In other word, the Dems are screwed!!! Go populist and loose what cash they are getting or don't and loose the "screwed majority" who don't have a lot of cash...

Now if it were truly a decision made on ideals then it would be a no brainer but without the dough to combat a tidal wave of Willie Horton ads that Boss Hog, when threatened, will run 24/7 if that's what it takes, the Dems really can't stand fir much of anything...

Which is exactly where they are today... BTW, the average Senator needs to raise over $8000 a day in campaign contributions to fund his or her next campaign...

I see no way out fir the Dems... Their current strategy of running on a theme of "We-ain't-as-corrupt-as-the-other-guys" may be their only option...

And who gets screwed??? Well, the "screwed majority", that's who who, BTW, aren't neo-cons, Christain Right or that conservative either...

According to recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Group, the Wall Street Journal and CBS News;

*65% in favor of national health insurane even if it means raising taxes

*86% fir raising them minimum wage

*60% fir recalling Bush tax cuts

*66% fir reducing the deficit by reducing DoD spending

*77% fir doing wahtever it takes to protect the environment

*87% think big corporations are gouging

*68% aginst offshoring jobs

*55 say that invading Iraq was the wrong thing to do

*60% say America is on the wrong track

Butcan the Dems tap into many of these concerns and still expect the big checks from Boss Hog?

Not likely...

Springsteen was right...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM

Snap out of it Boberto...

BTW... are you stalking me, or are you just running around kinda confused like and hysterical? Get a grip, kiddo.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

BTW... Do you really get your political insights from pop music stars? Yikes!

A little freudian slip there eh, Bobert... "Butcan the Dems..." Doin' your best are ya?;^)

So little to say, so much time... ...and so tiresome too.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:49 PM

Well, ttr, as you know we are a just sum total of all that we have experienced in life, be it 8 years of college, which prolly is hard it believe that I have, 'er just listenin' to folks, reading poetry 'er songs... Some times, as you being a poet know, it's just a few words that work real well....

"Candy's dandy but
Liquir's quicker..." (Odgen Nash)

But, no, I don't zero in on something like "I wanta hold yer hand" and attach to much to it but then again when Dylan sings "Don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows", ahhhh, yeah, I think we can all relate to what he is telling us...

Same with Springsteen's line (from the song "Big Muddy", incidently) and he should know... Early in his carrer he got screwed over more times than any musican or artist should have to go thru so, yeah, his observation wasn't exactly made in a vacuum, my friend...

As fir the "Butcan the Dem", LOL... Yeah, I'm sure Sigmond is smilin' at that one...

And, no, I'm not stalkin' you... You have kinda stepped out into the kind of stuff that I find intersting and know a little about so as long as yer in the 'hood, I reckon you'll be hearin' more from me...

But always good to see ya, ttr...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:11 PM

Yeah Bush is a lame duck. He has nothing to loose because he is not worried about re election. Therefore he is not in a Clinton type popularity contest.

On the other hand those slimy liberal Dems will be up for re-election and they will say or do anything to get re elected, Including but not limited to doing everything in their power to make the administration look bad at the expense of America itself.

They have the perfect DNC looser/idiot to carry them to victory, Howard Yehhaaa Dean.

Go Howard, make America look stupid for your own benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM

At this point, everyone knows that America is stupid. I doubt if Howard will do any more harm than has already been done.

At least he won't be making the U.S. look wicked and evil like Bush has done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,fiddler434
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:33 AM

Bobert-------I love your posts!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM

From a GUEST, that's purdy scarey, fiddler434... Most of GUEST-dom are on some kind of crusade to try to deminish my observations and theories...

As fir GUEST, Crowbar, I'd have to agree with you to some extent but I don't think its the issues that will hurt the Dems but the obscene manner in which the Repub can raise cash (think mob here with their rangers and pioneers and the bunding... like protection money) to purchase Willie Horton tyopa ads and run them 24/7... That is the scarey part of the equation... Ad-men are very, very powerful and what we have seen over the last several election cycles is the candidate witrh the most dough wins 9 out of ten contests...

Yeah, inspite of the Christain Right's blind backing if the Repubs, I believe that if Jesus Christ were to be found walking among us that the Repubs would consider him as threat, send a bunch of dough off to their PR folks and next thing ya' know Jesus Christ Himself would be Willie Horton-ized!!!

Bottom line, the Dems don't have the "rangers and pioneers" that can scare the corportaions into making the big donations so the Dems, unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat, are *toast*...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:41 AM

Tryin' ta cheer me up with Dylan quotes and mob expose's and Willie Horton analogies this morn'in Boberto... made me think of this...

"Three guys, stranded on a desert island, find a magic lantern containing a genie, who grants them each one wish. The first guy wishes he was off the island and back home. The second guy wishes the same. The third guy says "I'm lonely. I wish my friends were back here."

Snap out of it ol'boy...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:00 PM

Bobert is absolutely right about the probable government reaction to Jesus' presence on earth today. He would IMO be seen as a dangerous subversive by the very people who profess to follow his teachings.

Also, while I disagree with much of what TTR says, and believes, he damn sure has the right to say and believe what he does. At least he is willing to discuss the ISSUES, rather than personally attack the opposition.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM

Thomas, perhaps I am misreading you, but considering some of the ways you have characterized liberals and progressives in your posts indicates to me that you have swallowed the "liberals are evil" doctrine hook, line, and sinker and seem unwilling to consider that said liberals and progressives have a lot to say that is of value and should be considered, whether you eventually agree or disagree. Also, the remarks of other posters, such as ". . . those slimy liberal Dems," betrays to me a prejudice and closed-mindedness that precludes any kind of serious civil discussion.

I though that was what you were striving for in this thread.

If this is not what you were striving for, then I think I can spend my time more productively elsewhere.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:54 PM

Ah... the classic exposition of the patented 'glass jaw' liberal cop out... a veritable pouting retreat when faced with even the tiniest little smidgeon of the critisizm you project...

After 46 years of cottled liberal ephemerals... I just can't take it anymore. Oh sure... when Bobert is on one of his tirades... I understand. I mean... cool dude... I get his drift... but sorry Don... Bobert's a drama Queen. He's still hanging on to the perversion of folk music that Dylan popularized to go along along with the anti-establishment toke joke... But while some folks would like to believe that that 60's fervor fever is 'what it's all about'... I think it is missing the boat just as poignantly as the Neo-Cons... and is it's flip-side of the coin of social dysfunction.

I believe that "liberals" as a group have degenerated from the ideals of Gahndi and "Civil Disobedience" into a wishy-washy passion play of glorified decadence and immorality... and though it's sad to point out... The left is no stranger to corruption. All too often, they just call it "being cool".

Sorry Don... but I say "If our country is in trouble, our leaders are just the tip of the iceburg" ...and our lives as citizens are in need of spiritual enrichment and the more nutritious morality that comes with it. We are the mold that great men are made of... unless of course, we're actually just cowards and overstimulated consumers... competing with each other to see who's the best at remembering the brainstorms of Mainstream Media's marketing departments...

My take on it is this... that the 60's style of social disintegration was a sad mistake... It lacked clarity, rebuked God, and messed people up mightily. And until the 'liberal establishment' faces it's need for utter and complete spiritual renovation, everyone is going to suffer.

If 'The People' have no spiritual backbone... Their leaders will engage in superfluous activities... with little or no resistance.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM

Perhaps we're talking past each other here, Thomas. I think when you and I speak of "liberals" or "progressives," we are not talking about the same things.

Much of the "liberalism" of the Sixties followed the superficial aspects of the classic position, but lacked a solid, consistent, philosophical base. I doubt that many of those out marching and chanting, although the cause (e.g. civil rights) might have been worthy, had ever heard of, much less read, John Locke.

What I mean when I use these words is the classic definitions. I do not regard Kerry, for example, as a liberal, and certainly not a progressive. At best, he's middle-of-the-road, if not somewhat to the Right. I'm quite sure he regards himself as liberal, as do a lot of other people, and that's part of the problem. The Democratic Party, the traditional liberal party, has lost its focus. In its eagerness to win elections, it has cherry-picked and adopted what it regards as the more popular policies of the party it's trying to defeat, thereby abandoning its traditional values. And it's those traditionally progressive values that offer the electorate a genuine alternative. Once again, the Truman quote.

Indeed, both major parties have lost their focus. The neo-conservatives are far from the conservatism of someone like, say, Barry Goldwater, who was the quintessential conservative a generation or so ago. And the kind of Republicans I grew up with (Eisenhower, for example) would hardly recognize the GOP as it is today. Currently, more and more Republicans are less and less happy about the position and direction of the party to which they belong.

What I was advocating in my 07 Dec 05 - 02:33 PM post was for true, philosphically based liberals and progressives, not just those with single issue agendas like abortion or the environment or opposition to the war, to get involved in the Democratic Party and do everything in their power to put it back into its traditional classic liberal / progressive position. I see this as being easier to do than joining or trying to form a "third party," which, in this country, never accomplishes much beyond weakening support for the major party closest to their own position. And for that matter, disgruntled Republicans would do well to do whatever they can to take back their own party.

The traditional, classic terminology has gone down the tubes. It's hard to have a rational discussion when the terminology we use is fuzzy and ill-defined. There is a good reason for philosophical debaters to insist that the terms being used must be clearly defined. Without a clear idea of what the words we use mean, we wind up using the same words to talk about two or more different things. It's even harder when adjectives are added that clearly imply a sneer.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:17 PM

Can't agree with you more, Don...

Barry Goldwater amd Richard Nixon would not believe their eyes if they could see the amount of deficit spending that their present day, so called conservatives, are involved with... And for what?

But, really, it doesn't matter a tinker's dam about liberals and conservatives right now and who's who...

What is going to happen over the next several years is a major collision that both liberals and conseervative know all about but neither is willing to be the first to really take on in any kind of realistc manner...

That collision will come into full focus when out country finds it can no longer compete because of the ill-thought-out carpe diem thinking that when into our planning for the retiremnt of the Baby Boomers...

Tghis isn't just about Social Security but alaso about America's "industry"... Now, I'm probably going to sound a little like a Republican here but just bare with me... Back in the 50's and 60' and even into the 70's America's industries were doing good... NBo, make that very good and so during these years nice retirement packages were put in place to reward the workers for their labor in creating a lot of wealth for America...

We are now seeing the demise of obne industry after another and, well, it's easy to say that GM is getting what it deserves and in some ways, yeah, GM has made some bad product decisions but that a topic for another thread... Ford has made better product decisions and it is hurting as well...

(But, Bobert, Toyata is doing great and they are American designed and built...)

Glad you brouight that up... Yes, Toyota is doing well because they do not have the pension monkey on their back that they can use to make a better product...

(Holy cow, BObert, you aren't going to blame unions now, are you???)

Well, yes and no.... When GM was drowing in cash it was easier to make promises but now those notes have come due and, no, this isn't a union problem but an American problem.... And it's not just GM... It's lots of old Amercian companies...

Now here's the part where I think America is going to have to lay down the labels, roll up some sleeeves, and get to work... It will get very, very messy but sometimes things have to get very,very messy before wars end... And make no bones about it, America is very much at war with itself and the governemnt in a time of great need is asleep at the wheel, still playin' divide and conquer while grabbing as much cash as it can from whereever it can be extorted...

Fine... Maybe that's what is needed but, as I have predicted, this little out-of-control government will come to an end by necissity... That purdy much why all wars end... Now, the question that is difficult to answer is will it take Baby Boomers and rednecks from the South to form an alliance to bring down the monster or will the monster just one day wake up and look in the danged mittor and say, "Hey, we've messed this thing up purdy good. Wonder what ot will take to fix it???"

Yeah, the liberal v. conservative trhing is just a meaning diversion, much like gay marriage and flag burning...

Like Ross Perot used to say, "Hey we got a lot of plans, just no courage to try some things..."

Now before someone brings up Bush's Social Security plan, let me say this... He was correct in bringin' up Social Security... Where he screwed up was not allowing a discussion... That was more of the same liberal v. Conservative diversionary crao that he has done since 2000... We're not going to fix anything without a discussion..

That is why I get real pissed at some of the GUEST's here... The seem to be nuthin' but shills for the divide-and-conquerors...

I've tried to have discussionas about all kinds of issues here in Mudville but it ain't easy with the usual cast of gnats buzzin in ones face...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:36 PM

Your realism about the contemporary state of liberal philosophy is endearing and disarming, Don. Thanks for clarifying. It's almost impossible to imagine a Democratic Party Platform these days that doesn't evaluate itself entirely by reaction. Where are the unshakeable 'eternal' motivations that guided our country to "freedom" at the time of the Declaration of Independence? Perhaps the next word to define here is 'freedom' itself!

The left has fractured... splitting into factions upon factions upon factions... which makes it ultimately vulnerable to "anyone" with a short term concern... and rendering it virtually void of long term constancy. And yet, it persists in our imagination... like some kind of dream... where people get along and actually speak reasoned ideas with voices that are confident of being heard and considered...
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM

I think, speaking as an outsider, that the major difficulties facing the USA result from two serious flaws in the American psyche.

1. You measure the worth of a man by the number of zeros on his annual paycheck. To be thought of as having value in the community, he must clear $100,000 or more each year, which automatically removes your need to respect the poor, and therefore your responsibility to make provision for them.

2. You see your countrymen as "winners", or "losers", rather than participants in a shared endeavour.

Also you use the words "republican" and "liberal" as terms of abuse for those who do not share your political views, instead of descriptors of those political views

Divisive assessments such as these make it extremely difficult to get together in any meaningful action to improve matters.

Since there is a tendency for the majority of liberal voters (as opposed to liberal politicians) to be on the poorer end of the spectrum, these are the people most likely to be dissatisfied with the current administration, and to express that feeling.

Since nobody in government is disposed to listen to them, or show any concern for their rights, they feel disenfranchised, which is hardly surprising in the circumstances.

Your country is desperately in need of a change in attitude to move back toward the ideals expressed in your constitution, and the Bill of Rights, and the main stumbling block to that is the Republican Party.

Until the rich in your community recognise their responsibility to look after the poor, to see that they have proper education, proper healthcare, decent housing, and all the other needs that are so sadly neglected right now, America will fall far short of what the founding fathers intended to produce when they threw out the colonial rulers over two hundred years ago.

Look back over the last two centuries, and count up the number of men who have had a profoundly good effect on human development, and you will find that many of them were poor men, who by discovery, or invention, benefitted every one of us living today. Many great inventions and discoveries, in medicine, in industry, and in education were made by men who struggled to survive, and never gained financial reward for their work.

IMHO, any one of them was of much greater value to the human race than any politician, however rich.

The worth of a man, to me, is measured by what he puts into his community, not by what he takes out.

Perhaps when GWB understands that (if he ever does), he might just become a valuable human being, though I'm not holding my breath.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

Don T., you have an excellent grasp of the problem. All aspects.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM

The rich won't ever give an inch until the masses make the demands.... So if anyone is waiting for that to happen, get over it...

Like I said, it will take folks who can't be squeezed any more, like the retiree and the low wage earners primarially in the South(rednecks) in America to find they are both getting screwed... When that happens then the Green Party, or even perhaps a dem party with bones, will milk that coilition....

But make no bones about it... In the coming eyars these two groups will be in line fir the biggest screwin's...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:05 PM

Thank you Don. I try hard to understand why humans act the way they do, and to make allowance for the fact that they often get it wrong, but it's sometimes impossible to find the good in certain individuals. Maybe it just isn't there.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:46 PM

Beautiful Post, Don T.

Thanks!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM

However...

The rich-poor scenario just doesn't pan out. We have plenty of rich liberals and not so rich neo-cons... The class analysis doesn't really cut it in US politics anymore... It could even be said that the opposite is true, but I've no stats...

We don't measure worth in capital holdings... we exert economic influence... and are known to be very persuasive. Politics transcends this to some degree, but never will it be it's master completely. The same holds true of religion and the spiritual incentives that are always welling up within us...

Counting on the rich to take care of the poor is kind of like giving a blind man some matches and telling him to light all the candles in a room he's never been in before. His skills don't really match the job he's being asked to do... no matter how good his intentions are.

I do believe that the true sources of wealth in this country are our courage, hard work, and inventiveness... but what we do right with that wealth necessitates spiritual insight and compassionate vision.

We're not exactly world leaders in the spiritual insight and compassionate vision department now are we? These are much more important than we have been led to believe.

We need more than a shread of decency... like... how about the whole garment?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 09:20 AM

Yes, the whole garment works for me TTR.

You are certainly right in saying that there are rich liberals, but, at this time they don't have the power to change anything. The Republican Party do have that power, but certainly they don't have the inclination.

I have lived all my life in a country where we have a Welfare State. We DO value our poorer citizens, and every worker gives up an amount proportional to his income to finance it. It isn't perfect, but it does mean that we don't have to ask a heart attack victim for his credit card, or bank details before attempting resuscitation.

It is a minor sacrifice, generally acceptable to all, and is the reason why we don't have the proliferation of insurance providers, so happy to accept the premium, and so eager to find reasons to welsh on the deal if a client has to claim.

Considering that Britain exited WW2 almost bankrupt, and the US exited as one of the richest countries in recorded history, one might have expected a reversal of that situation, but the attitude that is perceived by outsiders is one of "My family and I are all right, and the rest can go hang".

I have met many Americans in my rather long lifetime, and I can honestly state that I have never met one who was not generous to a fault. I lived near a USAF base for a number of years, and socialised regularly with US servicemen, and it was almost impossible to spend any money when in their company.

I therefore cannot believe that the majority of them do not care about the poorer members of their own community. This leads me to conclude that the lack of care is due to the political leaders fear of losing votes, although I see little real justification for any such fear.

Perhaps they need to consider the number of votes they might WIN by such policies. I rather think that they would gain, on balance.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Yusafah
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM

OPERATION STEEL CURTAIN CONTINUES IN UBAYDI

CAMP BLUE DIAMOND, AR RAMADI, Iraq Iraqi Army soldiers and Marines, Soldiers and Sailors with Regimental Combat Team 2 continue Operation Al Hajip Elfulathi (Steel Curtain) in the town of Ubaydi Nov. 15.

It is suspected that many of the terrorists who are now fighting in Ubaydi fled from Husaybah and Karabilah, the first two cities that were secured by Iraqi and Coalition Forces at the beginning of the operation. While the fighting has been sporadic, it has been characterized by commanders on the ground as some of the heaviest since Operation Steel Curtain began Nov. 5. Intelligence reports indicate that the strong resistance to the Iraqi and Coalition push into the city is due in large part to the fact that terrorists believe they are trapped and have nowhere else to go.

An additional 30 terrorists have been killed since last night, for an overall total of approximately 80 killed since entering the city yesterday morning. Most of those terrorists were targeted by coalition air strikes, although some were killed in direct small-arms fire engagements with Iraqi and Coalition Forces on the ground.

Iraqi and Coalition Forces continue to clear the city house-by-house, occasionally encountering buildings that are rigged with explosives and triggered to detonate upon entering the building. Numerous weapons caches have also been seized, to include several that contained suicide vests and bomb making material. Overall, there have been 36 weapons caches found and destroyed during Operation Steel Curtain.

Iraqi and Coalition Forces have also discovered numerous improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and mines during the operation, the vast majority of which were destroyed by Coalition Forces before they could inflict any damage. The precise locations of many IEDs were revealed by detained terrorists. There have been a total of 107 IEDs and mines discovered during the course of Operation Steel Curtain.

Several detainees were captured trying to sneak out of the area by crawling among a flock of sheep. Overall, there have been approximately 150 terrorists detained since Operation Steel Curtain began 10 days ago.

Ubaydi is located on the banks of the Euphrates River, 20 km from the Syrian border and separated into two main areas, Old and New Ubaydi. Old Ubaydi has been cleared and now the Iraqi Army and Coalition forces are focusing on clearing the al-Qaeda in Iraq stronghold of New Ubaydi.

The intent of Operation Steel Curtain is to restore Iraqi sovereign control along the Iraq-Syria border and destroy the al Qaeda in Iraq terrorists operating throughout the Al Qa im region. The towns of Husaybah and Karabilah were cleared earlier in the operation which began Nov. 5 and a permanent security presence has been established. Approximately 1,000 Iraqi Army soldiers and 2,500 Marines, Soldiers and Sailors are participating in Operation Steel Curtain.

This offensive is part of the larger Operation Sayaid (Hunter), designed to prevent al Qaeda in Iraq from operating in the Euphrates River Valley and throughout Al Anbar and to establish a permanent Iraqi Army presence in the Al Qa im region.

ARREST WARRANTS ISSUED FOR TWO LEADERS IN THE INSURGENCY; ONE HAS TIES TO AL ZARQAWI

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The Iraqi Central Investigating Court in Baghdad issued arrest warrants for two men suspected of leading and facilitating the insurgency against Coalition and Iraqi Forces and who are responsible for many Iraqi deaths.

Issued on October 17, 2005, and only recently made public, was an arrest warrant for Muhammed Hilah Hammad al Ubaydi, also known as Abu Ayman. Abu Ayman, a Saddamist, was a former aide to the Chief of Staff of Intelligence in the Baathist Regime and has been financing and leading insurgency operations since Saddam Hussein s fall in 2003. The arrest warrant states that Abu Ayman is wanted for violation of Iraqi Penal Code 194, which addresses terrorist activities.

Coalition and Iraqi security forces have long suspected Abu Ayman of leading an extensive network of terrorists, whose aim is to disrupt democracy in Iraq. He is suspected of leading and facilitating kidnappings, improvised explosive device attacks and attacks on convoys that resulted in deaths, assassination attempts on government officials, non-Iraqi citizens, and destruction of property. Abu Ayman has focused his attacks against Iraqi forces in Baghdad, Salman Pak, and Mahmudiyah. Abu Ayman leads the Secret Islamic Army in northern Babil Province, an organization with ties to Abu Musab al Zarqawi and al Qaeda.

Also issued on October 17, 2005 was an arrest warrant for Jamal Wahab al-Dhari al ZawbaI, also known as Abu Asim. A former Special Republican Guard officer under Saddam Hussein, authorities believe Abu Asim has been active within the insurgency since the fall of the former regime.

The arrest warrant states that Asim, like Abu Ayman, is wanted for violation of Iraqi Penal Code 194.

Coalition and Iraqi security forces believe that Abu Asim is responsible for coordinating, facilitating, funding, and training different terrorist groups sharing the common goal of destroying the progress of a free and democratic Iraq. Abu Asim s focus remains in Baghdad although Coalition and Iraqi Intelligence officials believe Abu Asim is also responsible for terrorist attacks in Abu Ghraib.

COALITION FORCES CAPTURE HIGH LEVEL BA'ATH PARTY LEADER

BAGHDAD, Iraq   Coalition Forces captured Hamid Sharki Shadid, the leader of the New Ba ath Party in Diyala Province, during a patrol November 9th.

Coalition members apprehended Shadid along with physical evidence at his home.

Shadid is a former member of the Ba ath Party in Diyala Province and is suspected of being responsible for all anti-Iraqi forces Ba ath Party activities in that area.

Shadid s capture is a major achievement for Coalition Forces as they believe he can provide crucial information on the whereabouts of former Staff General Jamal Karki, a suspected Ba athist insurgent, and Abd-al-Baqi al-Sa adun, who has been a fugitive since the fall of the Saddam Hussein regime in 2003.

As the former Ba ath Party Regional Chairman of Diyala Province and Regional Chairman of Southern Iraq, al Sa adun is wanted for crimes against humanity committed during the 1999 Shi ite uprising. Al-Sa adun has remained a key leader within the Iraqi insurgency, recruiting and financing foreign terrorists in eastern and central Iraq. Al-Sa adun also actively coordinated, financed and directed attacks against Iraqi police and civilians in Nasiriyah, Basrah and Diyala provinces.

It is believed that Sa adun finances insurgent activities with money stolen from the people of Iraq during the Saddam regime and that Shadid may be an accomplice.

Coalition Forces will continue their pursuit of al-Sa adun and Karki and view Shadid s capture as a step closer to their apprehension. Up to one million U.S. Dollars is being offered to capture or kill Abd-al-Baqi al-Sa adun.

TERRORISTS CAUGHT WITH IED MATERIALS

TIKRIT, Iraq   Two men were taken into custody by U.S. troops near Hawija Nov. 12 after they were caught red-handed with IED-making material and $1,000 in U.S. currency.

Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division s 1st Brigade Combat Team were patrolling in Hawija when they came under small arms fire. The Soldiers determined that the shots were coming from a nearby cement factory and moved in to investigate.

They found the first suspect sitting in a vehicle outside the plant with a television remote control, a common detonator for IEDs, electrical wire and wire strippers.

A second man was discovered in a factory office with 50 feet of wire. A safe in the office contained a cordless phone and charger that was in the process of being turned into an IED trigger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 12:36 AM

WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 (UPI) -- Ramadi citizens captured and turned in a man believed to be one of the top operatives in Iraq for Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

The man, Amir Khalaf Fanus, was turned over to U.S. and Iraq forces on Dec. 9 in Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province and the scene of intense fighting.

Fanus is number three on the 2nd Brigade Combat Team's most wanted list. According to the military, he is the highest ranking "al-Qaida in Iraq" member turned over to U.S. forces by local citizens so far.

U.S. military officials say Fanus' capture is "another indication that the local citizens tire of the terrorists presence within their community."

There are increasing signs of fighting in Ramadi between Iraqi citizens and Zarqawi's fighters. The identity of the Iraqis is unclear; they are likely Sunni insurgents who sometimes fight alongside Zarqawi's men when they are facinig U.S. forces but battle with them at other times. During the six months Fallujah was in insurgent hands in 2004, there was a great deal of violence between the foreign jihadists and the Sunni insurgents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 12:28 AM

Good news coming from Iraq
Published Wednesday, December 7, 2005
Comments (0) Add Comment

To The Packet:

"I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive killing tyranny of Sadaam to modern self-governing, self-securing nationhood -- unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn."

Are these excerpts from President Bush's recent speech at the Naval Academy or quotes from Dick Cheney? No, they are the words of a leading Democratic senator, Joe Lieberman, in an op-ed piece in the Nov. 29 Wall Street Journal.

We read daily negative articles on the administration's Iraq policies demands for immediate (six months) withdrawal of our troops from Congressman John Murtha, and a litany of reports on roadside bombs, kidnappings and troop casualties. Surely such bipartisan support of our government's Iraq policy would be widely reported. I read The Island Packet the next two days and the New York Times the following day and found no report on Lieberman's comments.

If the senator had published a critical report on his return would we have seen it widely reported? Could you reprint his comments so your readers can see a nonpartisan critique of our Middle Eastern policy? It would help to report that Americans from both political parties can pull together for the common good of our country and the people of the Middle East.

John Sweeney

Hilton Head Island


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

Early voting under way ahead of Iraq elections
The Associated Press, Reuters

MONDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2005
BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:44 PM

Yo, Crowbar, so what do you think????

14 page cut'n posts is about as cowardly as anmything I can think of... You got any thing to say??"

Didn't think so..'

Jus' more well financed crap 'n post PR pablum....

You are a coward...

Bobert

(5 years here without one danged cut'n paste cowardly post...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM

It's better than your whining and sucking snot like a 2 day old calf.

It gives people something better to read than your Bobertisims, sarcasm and punditry that is totally devoid of facts.

Why don't you go on a bad will tour for the US? Are you too chicken?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM

Well, well, well...

Nop crap 'n post there, C-bar...

That's progress...

But let me tell ya', pal, even the Bushites don't read long crap-'n posts here in Mudville so if yer gonna do 'um, you can take it to the bank that *NOT ONE* person will read it!!!

Guarenteed!!!

So all you are dojg it diluding what ever it is that you want to say... The reason that foolks like you jump on me is because what I say is waht ***********************I************************* say...

Ain't 'bout siome dumbass blogger who may or may not know a danged trhing about what they are talking about...

What I say, is from a lot of reading from meainstream sources... I don't do blogs... You all want to get yer panties all twisted, fine... What yiou get from me is stuff that anyone, if they wou7ld take the time, could get from just reading the newspapers...

No blogs, just fact...

NO crap 'n post either, jus' fact..


Yeah, go ahead an' attcak me all you want, C-Bar... We know who it is that can't hang when it comes to doing the hard research... We know who it is that hides behind crap 'n paste blog stuff...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:02 AM

Thanks for the post Crowbar... did you really need to paste it 5 times?

...uhhhh... if you haven't noticed Y'all, we don't like long cut-n-pastes. Yep... there's even rules about 'em... round here...

I read it... and I heard it on network news, and I watched it on CBS. Tomorrow I'll read about it online and in several papers.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:32 PM

YEAH, and for the next two days we'll have it four times a day on TV. It'll be chewed over by "experts, mixed , mashed, disected and put back together, upside down and inside out till we're sick of hearing it.

You know what? It'll make no difference! What will happen will happen, because the people we allow to govern for us don't give a s**t what we think, on either side of the Atlantic.

So give us a break, Crowbar, there's a good fellow.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:36 AM

Bobert:
jus' fact.. hard research

Show me one example of a fact you have presented or one bit of research.

All you do is repaeat some propaganda that you have heard somewhere or have read in your glorious (left biased) Washington Post and (on the skids) NY Times, in your own words.

How is anyone to know if you are giving it to us verbatim or if you are giving us your sarcastic laden, biased version? That is the reason for cut and pastes.

I want to see some proof that no one reads them. Otherwise your claim is false and not based on any facts.

While Mudcat is officially a forum, it is functionally the same as a blog where people post and others respond.

The rules here are no lengthy cut and paste. I have not seen the definition of lengthy yet. I have not seen any comnparison if cut and paste with cowardice.

The cowards here are afraid of facts. They don't want to be confronted with facts proving they are wrong and out of step with the rest of the world.

They want to feel safe here in their fact free haven where they can all huddle together like scared rabbits, whine an whimper to each other about the big meanies that are picking on them and making thier life so hard. They want reinforcement from other crybabies like themselves.

Boo fucking Hoo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM

Waaaaaaa! Well said, Crowbar. Reminds me of song not found in the digital tradition...

Indiscipline... by King Crimson

I do remember one thing.
It took hours and hours but..
By the time I was done with it,
I was so involved, I didn't know what to think.
I carried it around with me for days and days..
Playing little games
Like not looking at it for a whole day
And then.. looking at it.
To see if I still liked it.
I did.

I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat..
The more I look at it,
The more I like it.
I do think it's good.
The fact is..
No matter how closely I study it,
No matter how I take it apart,
No matter how I break it down,
It remains consistant.
I wish you were here to see it.

I like it.

;^)ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:32 PM

Well, Crowbar, I know that you don't like "KatrinaGate" becuase you and you Bush folks don't like it when yer man gets caught but I presented a purdy straight forward argument on why I felt Bush was rsponsible for the poor showing by the Feds...

There's actaul researched facts that you haven't even heard much in the media yet like about the National Reponse Plan... Maybe you could tell the folks what you know about the NRP, C-Bar...

Then there's actaul testomny before Congress by Michael Brown... What, did I make that up???

Yeah, it's been three weeks (at least) since I, after researching an issue that one of your Bush suporting buds here suggested would be an issue that he would be willing to debate and all I have gotten is a lot os "Bobert is full of sh*t's"... Not one intellegent rebuttal!!!!

Not one, C-Bar...

Hey, you are the one who is so willing to jump on the "Bobert is full of sh*t" bandwagon but you haven't made one intellegent rebuttal to my argument either???

Hmmmmmmmm?

Just like yer fearless chickenhawk leader you think you can jst ***proclain*** your way past yer fearless leaders screw-ups...

Back in the 30's, they called 'um "Brownshirts", pal...

But guess what???

Hey, every time I see "Bobert is full of sh*t" I know that I have brought one nugget of truth into the arena... Hey, if I were a Bushite, I'd prolly do the same thing...

That, pwerhaps, is why I am not a Bushite...

BObert


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

Facts are never a friend to despots.

So some people think people like Cheney are ass holes for profiting at the death and catastrophic loss of others. Well bee hoo to you too.
Cheney thinks the rest of us are ass holes for not taking advantage of immensely profitable situations like Halliburton's unbid contracts for Iraq and Katrina. Never mind that those kind of conflicts of interest are illegal, in times of WAR all is permissable - or so we are told.

But all the name calling aside, when you send people to kill and be killed over a contrived well spun lie that intelligence reports told you was a lie...that is beyond despicable and worse than any of the reasons they decapitated Louis the 16th .

Rogue states, killing innocent people, false elections, cruel and inhuman treatment...just who are we talking about anymore US or THEM?

Six years ago I warned that the cost of war is in part, to become more like your enemy.
Welcome to the brave new world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, for you Bushites please see the "Bush and tortutr" thread and explain why the things that Bush has authorized and are being performed on people, isn't torture...

Or is that too much to ask a brownshirt???

Bobert


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