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Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense
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Subject: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:40 AM (this was sent to me by a friend; I cannot provide links to the various incidents, though I remember several of them from news items over the years) Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly, when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground, when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children It declined even further, when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student, but could not inform the parents, when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating, when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone. If you still remember him pass this on. If not join the majority and do nothing. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM Sorry, should have been BS but I could only use one prefix... Would a friendly JoeClone please relocate it below the line. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Peter T. Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:52 AM Much of this is not common sense, but pure prejudice, which is some people's version of common sense. Today's common sense is the residue of crap pushed through television and mediocre news. It is hardly the wisdom of generations handed down by elders. The 10 commandments are hardly common sense, which is why Moses had such a tough time. The golden calf is common sense!! Besides, common sense is overrated. Some of the stupidest people I know are ordinary folk. Also some of the smartest. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: MBSLynne Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:03 AM Having just been talking to a lady on a stall at a local farmers market about egg boxes, this is so true. She sells eggs but is now not allowed to re-use the cardboard egg boxes. If you take an egg box back, she can re-fill it for you, but you can't give her any extras you have to use again, cos health and safety says she can't. Also saw a piece last night on how much it will cost people like Punch and Judy Show owners actually to put on public performances. So Common Sense may be dead, but is also still dying.... Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: mooman Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:07 AM Tend to agree with Peter T on this... Peace moo |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: concertina ceol Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:52 AM Common sense is dead. We need to look out for his foster child - Common understanding. Common sense often isn't, we need to spend time trying to understand each other and different perspectives more. Peace and goodwill to all |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: breezy Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:00 AM Thanks El G for passing it on see you later tonight in St Albans at the Comfort for your gig |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Jeri Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:57 AM 31 May 01 7 Feb 04 and the Google search Joe posted for the articles. 974 hits. There may be more threads. If one passes on a mass mailing, it would be prudent to look to see how many others have passed it on, because these things (e-folklore?) get bounced around the internet forever. Peter T is right. It's a bit of reactionary claptrap, and one of the big clues that it's propaganda is that you CAN'T check on the facts. I remember the coffee incident and how people ridiculed the woman who sued, but a person shouldn't have to expect their coffee to cause third degree burns requiring skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay. See "McFacts about the McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit" The rest of the stuff may be equally wrong. I'm not bothering to look it up. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: MuddleC Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:11 AM I was doing some contract work yesterday, and had need to borrow a step ladder, the site chargehand was on his mealbreak (aka sleeping), so I convinced the nice security man to let me into the inner sanctum to borrow it. This inner sanctum was a generator battery room, and the security man said 'notice that new rubber mat', there was a pristine ridged rubber mat on the floor, 'that's to stop engineer's from being electrocuted when working on the power connections... but they are not allowed to use it, because it is a health&safety risk, they might trip over it you see!!.. ' , chortle, chortle... so I used the ladder, didn't harm myself at all, and when I told the chargehand where I had left it, he said, sorry, but you're not allowed to use it at all, even I have to fill out a risk-assesment form before I can use it........!!!!! crazy crazy crazy world |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of CRITICAL THINKING From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:48 AM Commingling right-wing christian umbrage with random unfortunate incidents is an attempt to convince an audience that it is all the same sort of thing and lull the unwitting into false conclusions. Critical thinking is the casualty here, not common sense. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:09 AM Common sense is what I have and others don't. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:41 AM I bet my common sense is better than yours, Jerry (not!) :0) You're right of course. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Rapparee Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:52 AM "Common Sense" never lived at all. If it had, you wouldn't have remarked on it. Even "Good Sense" is all too rare -- and always has been. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:59 AM To quote somebody or other, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." As with the demise of Communism, I feel strongly that we ought not toss the baby called humane Socialism out while getting rid of the real enemy---oppressive totalitarianism. As with everything these day, or so it often seems, one guy's common sense, is the ther gal's H-bomb detonating in their own neighborhood. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:46 PM I wouldn't be surprised if your common sense was better than mine, El Greko. I've made enough mistakes in my life for two people. Is there such a things as a factory recall on common sense? jERRY |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,redhorse Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM Peter T: Aparently Einstein defined common sense as "those prejudices we acquire before the age of eighteen"................... Nothing much changes nick |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 25 Nov 05 - 02:38 PM Jeri - When one opens a hot cup of coffee, placed in one's lap in a moving car, I would say that that person shows a great lack of exercizing ordinary caution. A jury that awards millions of dollars to that person eschews common sense in favoring of sticking it to the big, bad corporation (it's not their money, after all.) It almost amazes me that an appeals court actually drastically diminshed that award. I think the jury award should have been completely overturned; NOW THAT WOULD HAVE SHOWN COMMON SENSE! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Don Firth Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:44 PM Reality CheckNot only did McDonald's serve their coffee much hotter than most restaurants or drive-ins did, their Styrofoam cups were defective. Personal Observation No. 1 — About the same time the law-suit was being filed against McDonald's, but before it hit the news, on a long drive back to Seattle from a day-trip, I stopped at a McDonald's. I was driving, and I felt I needed a cup of coffee so I could stay alert for the rest of the drive. Also in the car were my wife, Barbara, and a friend, Nancy. We all ordered a bite to eat, and large coffees. As we pulled away from the window, the disk, about the size of a silver dollar, that formed the bottom of Nancy's Styrofoam cup dropped out, spilling the entire contents of the cup, very hot coffee, onto her lap (she hadn't put it her lap, she was still holding it), scalding her thighs. Part of the coffee hit the front of her heavy jacket, so she didn't' get the full cup in her lap, but it scalded her pretty painfully. The weather was coldish that day and Nancy had dressed appropriately, so although she was scalded, the fairly heavy clothing she wore prevented her from getting "the full benefit" of the overly hot coffee. She was uncomfortable for several days, but she didn't sue. Personal Observation No. 2 — On a few occasions when I stopped at a drive-in (Jack-in-the-Box on these occasions), they often served their coffee in a cup stuck into a pressed cardboard tray with indentations that gripped and held cups. This made it convenient to set the tray on the passenger's seat, assured that the cup wouldn't tip over while I drove to a nearby park to eat my lunch and watch the antics of the resident squirrels. I acquired a small collection of these pressed cardboard trays. In my perambulations about the city, I once stopped at a McDonald's, ordered a McRib barbeque sandwich and a large coffee. I could tell that the coffee was hotter than hell as I stuck the cup into the cup indentation in one of my trays. Again, I drove to a nearby park. When I parked the car and reached for my lunch, I saw that the passenger's seat was coffee-brown and soaking wet. The coffee had all drained out of the Styrofoam cup. Why? Observations provided the answer. The disk in that formed the bottom of the cup was just set in place. If you squeezed the cup slightly while holding it (hard not to do), the Styrofoam flexed, and the disk could very easily drop out of the bottom. The indentation in the pressed cardboard tray had flexed the cup sufficiently that the disk dropped out and the coffee quickly emptied onto the seat without my noticing it. And likewise, Nancy had undoubtedly flexed the cup slightly while holding it, the disk dropped out, and the hot coffee dumped into her lap. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that this is exactly what happened to the woman who sued McDonald's McDonald's is definitely at fault for not doing something a) about the serving temperature of their coffee; and b) the defective design of the Styrofoam cups they were using. Apparently it took this lawsuit to get their attention. This was definitely NOT a trivial lawsuit! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Rapparee Date: 25 Nov 05 - 06:47 PM Yeah, Don. Lack of good sense in several ways, especially in faulty design of the cups (or poor quality control in manufacture). |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:28 PM About the time of the 'coffee incident' many Aussie places, including Macas used to sell the stuff at near boiling. After that, most places began to monitor the temperature of their coffee - some places even had thermometers permanently placed in their serving jugs. In Australia, takeaway coffee was often sold in single piece blown Styrofoam cups. I noticed an occasional weird effect. Some cups (obviously from a 'faulty' batch!) would weep clear water when left to sit for a while. The foam must have had tiny capillaries which were actually filtering the coloured stuff out and letting clear water pass! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: leftydee Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:18 PM I think it was Mark Twain that said that common sense wasn't ever really all that common. I agree. Lefty |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: M.Ted Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:21 PM >It declined even further, when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, Paracetmol, one of the active ingredients in Panadol, has been found to damage the liver and kidneys and a number of deaths in children have occurred because a toxic dose can be fairly close to the therapeutic dose. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,DB Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:20 AM In my opinion it all comes down to the most deadly phenomenon of the Twentieth Century - the substitution of ideological models of reality for rational thought. In many parts of the world this led to millions of people dying horrible and painful deaths. In the English speaking world I suspect that many problems, that we experience today, are due to those in authority appearing to espouse a vaguely lefty, liberal philosophy in their public utterances whilst, in practice, trying to run things according to the mad principles of free-market capitalism - two mutually incompatible ideologies. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: David C. Carter Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM A guy here in France,is taking a chain of gambling casinos to court for"allowing"him to carry on losing all his money.His continued presence in these places obviously had nothing to do with it. A local council here, voted to hack down all the trees lining one of its avenues,because people,in cars,would insist on crashing into them,mostly late Saturday night.Cynics might think:Saturday night/alcohol/speeding/cars too big to handle etc.No way.Not at all.Are you crazy!!!!! I've heard of people,who,for no reason,took up that dangerous act of breathing.After all,it can get to be quite addictive.I've seen people in the street doing it!!!! I even heard that if you suddenly stop doing it,you could eventually er DIE.Perhaps we should ban it.I think we should be told..... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 Nov 05 - 11:13 AM I just posted an article to my "I Read it in the Newspaper" thread so I won't put it here also. About a couple of folks who were apparently as dysfunctional as the day is long who won a huge lottery in Kentucky a few years ago. What sad story. Common sense nowhere to be found with either of them. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 26 Nov 05 - 12:00 PM Common sense tells me that everyone, including M.G., ought to agree with moi! ;-) Art |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 26 Nov 05 - 02:12 PM Don Firth- In all I read about the case way back when, there was no mention of a defective cup; there was a description of the person involved having placed the cup between her legs (or in her lap) whilst driving. I stand by my criticism of that driver. This does not sound like what happened to you and Nancy; I would support a finding of liability against McDonald's and/or their supplier if the facts are as described. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Don Firth Date: 26 Nov 05 - 03:08 PM That may be true, John. I haven't read the actual details of the case. But the fact remains that at least until after that law suit, whenever someone in a paper hat handed a cup of coffee to you through a McDonald's window, it was an accident just waiting to happen. On the inside circumference of the bottom of the Styrofoam cups McDonald's used there was a narrow lip. The disk that acted as the bottom of the cup was just set in—not attached in any way whatsoever. If you were to poke the bottom of the cup, it would just lift up, and if the cup contained anything, it would allow the contents to dump out. Or, as I said, if the cup flexed a bit, there was a good chance that the bottom would simply fall out. When news of the lawsuit broke and it became a topic of discussion, and I mentioned what had happened to Nancy and me, several people told me that the same or similar things had happened to them or to someone they were with. Speculation: consider for a moment getting handed a cup of coffee through the drive-thru window. If you are alone in the car, are you actually going to drive away from the window with your one hand on the steering wheel and your other holding the cup of coffee? How about if you're driving a stick-shift? I venture to say that unless their car has a cup-holder, most people set the cup into their laps, steadying it by holding it between their legs as they drive off to park somewhere. I've done this dozens of times (not at McDonald's) with no mishaps. This could be enough to flex the cup and allow the disk to drop out. Considering the fact that the woman's groin and thighs were scalded so badly that she needed skin-grafts, it seems very likely to me that that's exactly what happen. Whether or not this actually was what happened to the woman who filed the suit, if it took a lawsuit to draw McDonald's attention to the fact that they had a problem, I still say it was worthwhile and not at all trivial. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: M.Ted Date: 26 Nov 05 - 05:58 PM John on the Sunset Coast--The details of the legal proceeding in the "Coffee Cup" case are at the link provided by Jeri, above--rather than "standing by" the conclusions you drew after reading a newspaper article several years ago, you should read the actual details of the trial, the as well as the actual conclusions of the jury, and the actual legal settlement in this Wall Street Journal article-- McDonald's Callousness Was Real Issue Says Jury You will find, among other things, that McDonald's Coffee was, by company policy, kept at a temperature level significantly higher than other restaurants, that McDonalds knew this temperature produced third degree burns and blistering of the skin within 2-7 seconds, that the woman, Mrs. Liebeck, required skin grafts and surgery, and that McDonald's was aware of this risk, had payed damages in many previous cases, and had made a decision not to give customers any warning, even though people generally had no idea that the coffee was heated to such a high temperature and that it was so dangerous. Furthermore, you will find that, rather than the substantial punitive damages that the jury recommended, the actually damages awarded were $200,000, reduced by 20%, because the judge felt that Mrs. Liebeck had some responsibility because she'd place the cup between her legs. You jumped to conclusions, like everybody else, and, like a lot of people, you stick by your erroneous, early conclusions, because you assumed, for some reason, that you had been given an accurate picture of what had happened--- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM I had the idea that the jury awarded one days coffee profits { not costs } from all of McDonalds. Am I wrong about that ? I have no facts to back that up. Just my memory which is flawed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:32 PM I think I'd say the award was compared to one day's coffee income by some commentator - I doubt that the court would link the award to that figure. But I still think McDonald's coffee is too darn hot, too darn weak, and too darn expensive. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:52 PM Common sense - park the car and drink the coffee in the cafe. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: M.Ted Date: 27 Nov 05 - 12:36 AM The jury's original award, the high number, was based on one day's coffee receipts, and was intended to be punitive. The judge has the discretion of adjusting the settlement amount, which he did, but that wasn't nearly as interesting a story, so no one heard about it-- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 27 Nov 05 - 01:44 PM Anyone reckless enough to try to drive whilst holding a cup of coffee deserves everything they get. Anyone reckless enough to allow anything McDonalds sells to pass their lips also deserves everything they get. It's all shite. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: M.Ted Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:14 PM That is the most vicious Anti-American statement I've ever heard, Strollin' Johnny ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Don Firth Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM How about drinking a cup of coffee, eating an egg McMuffin, talking on a cell phone, and checking e-mail on a laptop sitting on the passenger's seat while hurtling down the freeway at 60 mph? Darwin Awards, anybody? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: M.Ted Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:50 PM I'd say that's about normal around here, at least if you raise the speed to 80--How about adding a DVD player along with all the rest? As they say, "It's out there"-- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Doug Chadwick Date: 28 Nov 05 - 03:21 AM Sorry, should have been BS but I could only use one prefix... There should have been no conflict. It is BS – it is not an Obit. In my opinion, the Obit prefix should be reserved to mourn the passing of noteworthy people and salute their achievements in life. It should not be used to add gravitas to cut and paste articles or to groups of thoughts not related the loss of an individual. To do so belittles the sentiments in the true Obit threads. It only takes a bit of common sense to see the difference. DC |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,noddy Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:14 AM What about this case A man buys a new car and on the way home the engine cuts out and cars stops. He restarts the car and drives on a short while later it happens again. He returns to the garage where he bought it and explains what happened. they tell him to leave it with them and they would fix it. Next day he goes to collect it and is told they can find nothing wrong with it. They tested everything and nothing showed . They suggested it was an intermittent fault and would disappear with use . If not bring it back and they would try again. He left the garage and drove home ,on the way the car cut out again this time on a crossing. he could not get it to restart and could not push it off the railway lines. Noticing a phone box nearby he went to phone the garage to come and help and collect the car. While making the call a train came down the line hit the car ... the car hit the phone box and him killing him. His relatives sued and won. Who did they sue. The car manufacturer, the garage, the railway, the train driver????? They sued the phone company. The decision was based on that if a car was on the line and hit by a train it was likely the car would hit the phone box and should not have been put there. True case |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,noddy Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:21 AM Another true case. A man buys a bag of coal and puts it on his fire in his house. Amongst the coal was a detonator. It blew up taking out a potion of his wall and making a bit of a mess in the process. He tried to sue the coal merchant under the Trade decription Act and lost. The defence said that The merchant sold a hundred weight of coal to the man and thats what he got. The coal was supplied in accuratly weighed bags and the coal did as it was supposed to do and burned. The detonator was a free gift. It did what it was supposed to do and caused small explosion. So under the Trade Description Act both items did as they were supposed to do. |
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Subject: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM I found this today on someone's Myspace page and thought I'd pass it on. It seems there are several versions around, some a little longer than this. The author is unknown. Obituary for Common Sense Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim.. Not many attended his funeral, because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing. Threads combined. -Moderator |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: melodeonboy Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:55 AM I've heard rumours that the black sheep of the family, Whatever (Common Sense's ex-brother-in-law), is still alive and in good health. It's also been said that he recently fathered a daughter by the name of I Aint Dun Nuffin. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Les in Chorlton Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:57 AM Common sense would tell you the Earth is flat and the Sun goes round the Earth, neither of which is true. Les With clearly nothing better to do |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:10 AM Common Sense would do no such thing Les, climb a hill near the sea and you can see that the Earth is curved, it amazes me that the belief that the earth was flat was ever given credence, did the ancients believe it to be so? |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:22 AM Common Sense would tell you to shut up, keep your nose clean, don't rock the boat, say your prayers, read the Daily Mail and vote Tory. Common sense is not to be trusted... |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:38 AM I know that common sense means being suspicious when something sounds like it was written by Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. I also know (because I looked it up in response to another rant elsewhere) that back in the "safe" 1950s, kids may have had more freedom etc., but the death rate aged 0-18 was almost TEN times its present level. And as for the churches not being businesses, when exactly did they stop collecting tithes*, legacies, the pennies of the poor, rents from property or income from investments? *1977 in England |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM "I also know (because I looked it up in response to another rant elsewhere) that back in the "safe" 1950s, kids may have had more freedom etc., but the death rate aged 0-18 was almost TEN times its present level." I'm intrigued. Due to what, Paul? |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: GUEST,Betsy at Work Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:50 AM Common sense told the boy that the Emperor had no clothes. Pity the same boy wasn't around to advise our leading Bankers not to buy (for huge unimaginable sums of money) useless WORTHLESS worthless pieces of paper which were nicely packaged - US sub prime mortgages. I find common sense a most agreeable thing , have you noticed how many times so-called highly educated individualls have the opposite point of view when asked their opinion about a Subject in which they "qualified" as an Expert?. Thanks Lizzie for bringing it to my attention. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:06 AM The topic prompted me to do a browse of Thomas Paine's COMMON SENSE PERHAPS the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason. Even though paper is argument for American Independence, sacry that long habit makes a wrong thing seem reasonable and time makes more converts than reason [paraphrase] is applicable to so many things in life and threads on the Mudcat. Common Sense is and has been sadly absent. However, there is hope (tongue firmly implanted in cheek) as shown by this Common sense breaks out at Harvard signed LosingTheWillToLive |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Chris Green Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:56 AM The idea that the ancients believed in a flat earth is questionable to say the least. When kings were crowned, the golden orb they held represented the world. Presumably if the common belief had been that the world was flat they'd held a golden disc! And the idea of a flat earth certainly didn't seem to prevent the Vikings from sailing as far as America. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Les in Chorlton Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:32 AM I think "flat earth" was questioned way back although when I don't. Some Greeks calculated the circumference of the earth at least a couple of thousand years ago. As for climbing trees and seeing the curvature of the earth? is that so? It's true that sailors realised something was going on when land behind them disappeared and new land came up out of the sea. Les |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Rapparee Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:28 AM Common sense never existed, it has always been a figment. If it HAD been "common" you wouldn't remark on it. Try "good sense" instead. As for the Earth being flat -- not even the Papacy defended THAT ONE. (Vide William Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire" et al.) |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: kendall Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:31 AM Columbus knew the earth was a ball because he was familiar with the writings of Copernicus. The ancient Egyptians also calculated the circumference of the earth, although it is much bigger than they thought. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM "long habit makes a wrong thing seem reasonable and time makes more converts than reason" Is that a definition of common sense, VT? It sounds like one to me... Most 'common sense' arguments I hear are whatever the right wing press are saying at any given time. And, interestingly, definitions of 'common sense' on resources such as Urban Dictionary define it negatively as something lacking in 'liberals, socialists and communists' (I guess lumping that disparate group together is another example of the 'common sense' approach at work). Which fuels my belief that 'common sense' in 21st Century Britain is a reactionary, right wing construct. I also notice that appeals to 'common sense' are most often made when someone is losing an argument... especially if the person they are arguing with is using logic, rationality and other post-enlightenment tools... |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM It isn't. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:46 AM Is that a 'common sense' answer, Foolestroupe? |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:00 AM Hi Spleen Not a definition. It was simply a paraphrase of bits of the snip of intro to COMMON SENSE that struck me. But now you have sort of flipped the meaning of "common" for me, it fits. I think "good" sense is dangerous description as well. "Good" would be defined differently by each argument. This all makes me very tired. I think I will stick with horse sense. Eat hay, run around paddock, nibble oats, roll in grass, sleep. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:03 AM Horse Sense Now you're talking my language! (Be careful people don't think you're referring to the 'I ain't ever heard a horse sing' quote, though...) |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM I have to agree, Spleen Cringe. A lot of the statements in the first post read like a litany of Daily Mail headlines - anecdotal half-truths used to whip up paranoia, but not really indicative of any particular trend in society. It's like the "I'm not racist but..." examples that are regularly trotted out about the banning of black boards and black sheep and Christmas being turned into "Winterval". Look behind the headlines and there's usually very little substance - one teacup tempest after another, but it sells newspapers. Even if the paranoia seems to be driving a substantial proportion of the readership of certain papers to the brink of lunacy. "the Daily Mail - not so much a newspaper as an idiot's guidebook issued in bite-size daily instalments" - Charlie Brooker |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM the death rate aged 0-18 was almost TEN times its present level...Due to what? I don't know. The figures were UK government figures, somewhere in the national statistics office. I'd guess at: - a huge decrease in perinatal and neonatal mortality - More vaccination and against more diseases (polio/ measles etc.) - decreased road accident rate - better housing and less air pollution - Fewer young people working and work conditions safer - the rest down to lowered accident rates in the home/ play etc. But that's only using common sense :) |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM Paul, I reckon "Disgusted of Tun. Wells" is pulling your leg! John |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM Found the reference: the crude death rate (i.e. the whole population rate) has stayed about the same, while infant and childhood mortality rates have plummeted. The figures are for age 1-14, not 0-18 btw. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Rapparee Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM Improved public health, including vaccination and inoculation; earlier diagnosis of disease; improved treatment...I suggest that these are the major reasons for the decline. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM I'm puzzled. Why do some of you see that 'obituary' as being like a 'Daily Mail' reader/rant? |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM Because statements such as "Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student" are, IMHO: "anecdotal half-truths used to whip up paranoia, but not really indicative of any particular trend in society. It's like the "I'm not racist but..." examples that are regularly trotted out about the banning of black boards and black sheep and Christmas being turned into "Winterval". Look behind the headlines and there's usually very little substance - one teacup tempest after another, but it sells newspapers." |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:40 PM The little lad though, WAS charged with sexual harrassment, in 1998, I found it in several American papers. The mouthwash incident also happened, again in 1998 in America, according to The New York Times. The last one is somewhat more ambiguous, but I'd not be surprised if that too happened, round about the same time, perhaps, and those three incidents together were in the author's mind... There's a great deal of 'sense' in those words, to me. These words in particular strike home to me, as a mother. "It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. " Isn't it still illegal for a child under the age of 16 to have sex, or anyone older than that to have sex with them? Yet, GPs and schools are free to give them contraception ad hoc, and yet their parents are kept entirely in the dark. So, doesn't that make the doctors, nurses and teachers guilty of aiding and abetting an illegal act? That's always puzzled me, along with the fact that the State says we, as parents, are soley responsible for our children, and yet, if they want to have under-age, illegal sex, then we have no right to know and the State is in charge. Hmmmmmmmm...... |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:40 PM Do you understand the word "anecdotal", Lizzie? one incident, or even two or five, does not make a social trend. If the little pearl of spam-wisdom that started this thread has to troll back 10 years for examples and evidence, one could possibly surmise that there aren't actually all that many examples to be drawn upon. it's the same thing that happened with either the Express or the Mail last Christmas - the annual story about how "PC Gone Mad" is responsible for some town not putting up Christmas lights, but instead having a "winter festival" so it wouldn't offend all the immigrants. It turned out the story was about 8 years old, and that the idea had only ever been discussed at a meeting and not actually been actioned. But by the time such truths are revealed, the damage has been done. This is precisely what's wrong with the kind of half-baked reporting you get from papers like The Daily Mail. They take one incident, whip it out of all proportion, and the next thing they're starting some telephone or e-mail campaign. And the dutiful sheep who buy the paper become suitably indignant about the whole country going to pot, and there they are, making their self-righteous phone calls. Down With This Sort Of Thing. Why - because it empowers them? Well, it might bring the illusion of empowerment. And for some people, that's enough. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM Is it the tone and style which is kind of mud stirring? The argument is presented as an Obituary. I've never read the Mail but gather from my partner is it .... well rubbish. Does the Mail tend to use pathos disguised as "common sense" or "right thinking" or "logical?" Best to caveat lector any arguments employing language which stirs emotions. I prefer my opinions informed by facts that are not hyperbolised or dressed up. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:53 PM "The little lad though, WAS charged with sexual harrassment, in 1998, I found it in several American papers. The mouthwash incident also happened, again in 1998 in America, according to The New York Times. The last one is somewhat more ambiguous, but I'd not be surprised if that too happened, round about the same time, perhaps," Re the mouthwash incident: 'In a letter to the youth's parents, the principal, James E. Person, said their son had admitted to drinking the mouthwash and had bragged to classmates about its content of nearly 22 percent alcohol. Mr. Person said teachers had seen the youth using the mouthwash at least once before "in a way that made others think he was drinking it." ' Now, do I believe the kid or the school? Is it really "PC gone mad" once you hear the other side of the story? So that's one story where you admit you can find no evidence, one where there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why the school responded as it did, and one which probably was, indeed, an OTT response. See? No trend. Just unrelated, anecdotal (and in one case possibly completely untrue) incidents. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:30 PM Maybe you're right. Maybe it was written by some down and out facist. Maybe my country and the whole of the US is simply filled with racists and we just haven't sussed it out yet, because some of the English Folk World is so busy bullying people on other threads, that they're overlooking this important matter. Maybe the lawyers aren't getting rich everytime someone wants to sue someone else. Maybe the kids aren't getting pregnant/having sex without their parents knowledge, whilst their schools and GPs aid and abet an illegal act. Maybe so very many adults haven't let go of all their responsibilities, leaving children wandering around in a world that doesn't seem to give a shite any longer, because they're way too busy behaving like bafoons on some BBC radio shows. Maybe the banks aren't bankrupt. Maybe the country isn't bankrupt. Maybe the people aren't bankrupt. Maybe they're not losing their homes because they borrowed 6 to 10 times their salary, fed by greedy bastards who would have given them more. Maybe the criminals don't have more rights than their victims. Maybe our kids are drinking themselves half to death on our city streets every day. Maybe that piece about the little lad being sued for sexual harrassment was made up. Maybe the kid with the mouthwash was being a little bastard after all who deserved kicking out of school bigtime for larking around. Maybe Truth, Trust, Discretion, Responsibility, and Reason are still alive. Maybe I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim never got to be born. Maybe I've never been one of the majority. Maybe I still remember Sense...and his twin, Sensibility, along with Integrity, Empathy and Compassion. Maybe, now that Barack Obama has ridden into town, he remembers them too. Maybe he was never one of the majority either. Maybe Hope is now out there. And Maybe, just maybe Hope is here, because Denial, Stupidity and Apathy have finally started to be buried. Maybe. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM Correction: Maybe our kids *aren't* drinking themselves half to death on our city streets..... |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:46 PM With all due respect, Lizzie, that's a dizzyingly random list of maybes... |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM or maybe a deep breath and some slightly more logical and critical thought is in order. Or maybe you should read less of the Daily Mail and more Charlie Brooker. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM That Ruth, she reads my mind. Charlie Brooker should be made compulsory. As should Ben Goldacre. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:10 PM Lizzie you just demonstrated what I cannot help but be wary of. The presentation is packed with emotion. And it is fine and good for you to feel so strongly. It is equally good for you to express as you wish. It is just that devices like repetition and manipulated negations of facts in order to make a point and designed to elicit emotion is pathos style of argument. And as such, does not appeal to me as a method of getting to truth. It may be purely reactionary on my part due to upbringing, etc. That is just my take. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Rowan Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:11 PM One of my favourite definitions of common sense is "That load of prejudices you picked up before you turned 15." I suppose I first heard it when I was about 17, when it certainly rang true for me. And I rather like VirginaTam's paraphrasing of Thomas Paine's definition; there was a thinker who could make sense and still get parties opposed to each other also opposed to his ideas. In Oz, the national broadcaster (ABC) runs a short weekly program called MediaWatch that regularly reveals the laziness of editors and presenters who present urban myths and hoary chestnuts as recent and gospel. Around Christmas they put the program out to pasture to give us whistleblowers a break but it is scheduled to return. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:13 PM Indeed, spleen cringe. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:22 PM Uhh I didn't see anywhere in this thread where Lizzie stated that she reads the Mail. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:37 PM But on a recent thread, she was defending the paper and its readers. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM This is starting to look like a personal attack, can we just stop it now please? The piece that started this thread has been around for a long time. I was passed a copy albeit a paper copy, at least 5 years ago, when I became a Health and Safety rep. That could explain the 'vintage' information. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM Well, Liz, it isn't a personal attack. I've responded to the points Lizzie has made with, I believe, cogent and reasoned arguments. Others are doing the same. No one has attacked any individual. So what's the problem? |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:43 PM Much older than that Liz. I first saw it more than twenty years ago, and speaking from reasonably good memory, the wording has changed very little, though some of the reported incidents have replaced earlier ones. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM "It is just that devices like repetition and manipulated negations of facts in order to make a point and designed to elicit emotion is pathos style of argument. And as such, does not appeal to me as a method of getting to truth." No, don't worry too much, it's just the way my brain works, Virginia Tam. That came out in minutes (I type very fast) and I liked the way the words looked as I was typing it, the 'maybe' bit found its way into my imagination and out it came. It was the 'maybe' word that started it off, nothing else, and then it was half down to how the 'picture' of the words looked, as much as what I was actually saying. I think a little oddly at times, that's all, we're a dyslexic family and we're all a little weird in how we think. I think entirely in pictures, listen to music in pictures, hear and read poetry in pictures. Blame 'Maybe'...he was the one who did it! :0) And Joan, can we please get this sorted out once and for all. I'm really sorry to disappoint you here, but I'm NOT racist. I know that you're kind of determined to prove to everyone that your hunch about me is right, but it ain't. Yes, I have at times read the Daily Mail. I have also read The Times, The Independent, The Telegraph and The Guardian. So what? The Daily Mail sometimes has some excellent articles in it, and it's contributed to by many famous people from time to time. It's also one of the most popular newspapers in this country, so that means we're either the most racist country in the world, or that maybe this campaign of hysteria in here is perhaps a little OTT. I've read some great articles in other papers too, and some crappy ones, same with The Mail. When I delivered papers around Sidmouth, with my son, last year, I didn't paint a swastika on the doors of every house that had The Mail, nor did I paint a hammer and scythe on the doors of those who had The Guardian. I do NOT judge people on the papers they read and have never heard of such a thing until I fell into the folk world. For your information, I have met Sir David English and Stuart Stephen, both of whom were strongly connected with The Daily Mail/Mail on Sunday. This is not because they were awarding me a prize for reading every single word ever published by their papers, but because they both came to visit the heart specialists for whom I worked in Harley Street. Ask Stuart Stephen if he remembers Dr. Spurrell's secretary, and he'll tell you the story of when he tried to pull rank on me, and got short shrift...and he ended up laughing about it. I don't judge people like you do. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I don't. I don't judge papers like you do either. I know there are some good journalists and one hell of a lot of bad ones. I loathe The Sun and The Mirror because they're so damned dumbed down and crude. I don't like naked women in my paper (down boys!) :0) never have done, but I did once work with Denise, who lef the chemist shop we both worked in and became a model for those two papers, a Page Three one. She eventually went on to become Miss United Kingdom. A very pretty girl and to be honest, one who didn't need to take her clothes off to get somewhere, but she eventually packed it all in when she had children, as she didn't want her kids to see their mother across the papers like that. I won't refuse to read something, just because there are people out there who tell me I mustn't. I make up my own mind about things. The paper I like best, at the moment, is The Independent, and I like it because it's different. All the other papers so often have the same boring story on their front pages, but that paper nearly always has something different. It's a breath of fresh air, although no doubt I'll be told that reading The Independent proves I'm 'something else' entirely... I'm not a racist, nor a facist. Neither was my father, who, along with one hell of a lot of other people in the UK used to read The Daily Mail all his life. He went to war though, to er...fight the facists and the racists, and to ensure that you were born with the freedom of speech to infer that his daughter is a racist. Personally, I'd rather you used that freedom to be uplifting, kind and inspirational, but then....I'm my father's daughter....and you're not. And now, back to common sense. And also...to bed, as I'm about to turn into a pumpkin again. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:46 PM Lizzie, why are you incapable of simply carrying out a reasoned discussion? As I said earlier, there was nothing personal in my arguments. I despise the politics of the Daily Mail and all it stands for - reactionary paranoia. The first post that you opened this thread with embodies, IMHO, many of those values. You defended the paper recently on another thread. You make numerous posts which are provocative, and then get arsey when people are provoked. You bring things down to a highly personal level, then screech when things get personal. If you're incapable of having a discussion with people who disagree with your viewpoint, perhaps it would be better not to post anything which people might find contentous. Because I have been politically active all my life, and as long as you continue to post things which I find politically questionable, I will continue to say so. If you choose to interpret this as a personal attack, it would appear to be your issue. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Rowan Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM One use of common sense, becoming scarcer it seems, is 'giving someone the benefit of the doubt' when reading postings that can't convey the nuances that facial expressions and body language communicate so well. Emoticons don't cut it, for me. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Gurney Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:56 PM I'm glad that I had the common sense to stay off this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:20 AM !I'm glad that I had the common sense to stay off this thread.! And I'm glad I've the common sense to ignore the post above, which is directed at me. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: VirginiaTam Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:47 AM SIGH! We are not talking of what Lizzie may have or not defended in other threads. Let each thread stand alone. As the makers and moderators of Mudcat would say, all are encouraged to express their opinion here. Singling out individuals and full on attacks discourage just that. Using a poster's comments on other threads for ammunition does nothing but make the one using the information appear a bully to put it nicely and/or a stalker or shit-stirrer put not so nicely. I do not get the impression from anything Lizzie has said in this thread that she approves of fascism or racism. Reading a newspaper - like a swallow does not make a summer - does not make a racist. Lizzie has admitted to reading many of differing political poles. How else can one learn and make informed decisions, except you have everything accessible. Read John Milton And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play on the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter? [Areopagitica] I do remember the other thread and heated exchanges between you two and I don't remember anything in Lizzie's posts there that indicated intolerance. I only see that she is passionate about things that matter to her, which (no surprise) are things that matter to all of us. Same goes for Ruth. Be passionate both of you, but do not make it personal. It all boils down to a matter of style of expression by one and interpretation by another. I do not see why there must be battle lines drawn and sides taken. This is not a playground. I am now going to leave this thread because it seems to have lost the plot which is SENSE. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Paul Burke Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:13 AM I don't think anyone has accused her of fascism or racism, though she proclaimed herself that she was neither racist nor facist (sic), and as far as I can tell she's right. I think she was suckered by an internet rant from some anonymous grumbler, and didn't bother asking too many pertinent questions about it like: - did the alleged incidents ever occur? - were they as portrayed in the rant? - are people necessarily lacking "common sense" when they respond to legal and media pressure in an arse- protecting way? - why do the media condemn "PC" and "risk averse" responses, when the same rags will crucify, for example, a social worker who doesn't exhibit perfect foresight in every case? Perhaps I should have run down the original list and asked for a considered discussuion on each of the points raised. Some of them have merit, others are more or less bogus. But life is short, and I am weary. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:18 AM I don't think I was calling Lizzie a racist, VirginiaTam. What I tried to convey is that she can be prone to the knee-jerk, sometimes hysterical responses typified by certain nerwspapers. I don't think that this kind of paranoia is either realistic or helps to address the underlying issues that society really is facing. I am very interested in the politics of fear, as discussed by Michael Moore in the film Bowling for Columbine. His underlying thesis was the question, "What is America so scared of?" He deomonstrated how the politics of fear are used as a tool of control, and to get people to behave, and vote, in certain ways. When I see that sort of thing being propigated in the UK, I feel compelled to call it for what it is. That's not a vendetta; it's a logical response. |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:54 AM I talk to kids on buses, when they sit there swearing at the tops of their voices. I talk to them again, when the content of their conversation would make an Aged Prostitute's hair stand on end. Why??????? Because I am incensed. Not by a bloody newspaper. I am incensed that so many children have been raised in a society that has let all the unwritten rules of decency go. I am incensed because that bus is being shared with small children and elderly people. I am incensed because those elderly people, the very ones who went to war to give those kids their freedom, are too frightened to turn around and ask them to stop, because they know that more than likely, they'll get told to "F*ck off, Old man!" or be threatened, or worse still, find themselves being arrested because the kids have complained about them. So I wade in there, and they can see the fire in my eyes, and hear the tone of my voice, and yes, when I get angry, all nervousness goes away from me. I don't stop if they don't stop. I ask them politely, I ask them again, then...I get narky with them, and embarrass them to hell. I am sick to death of bad manners, inconsiderate behaviour towards others, and some kids who think they are the absolute bees knees and that they have the right to behave however they want and sod everyone else. Mostly, they stop at Stage One. It has NOTHING to do with a bloody paper, and all to do with being raised by parents of different generations! My father's generation is the one I chose to follow. So if I sound old-fashioned, I don't apologise for it, because I happen to think that the old-fashioned ways, many of them, not all, are a terrible loss to society. And as far as being a Reactionary now, is that the new buzz word for 'racist' 'facist' 'communist'...because I get kinda lost with which insult is supposed to incur the most wrath from other people. Tell the Education system about Reactionaries, because they're sending in The Grannies to our schools, to teach our children how to make do and mend, talk to them about 'the old ways' and how they got through the war. So horror of Extreme Left horrors, The Grannies are back, and maybe, just maybe, The Grannies will bring forth a whole new generation, with a whole new outlook, that will care not only about their world, their families and their money, but about each other too. And while I'm at it, hats off to Michelle Obama for declaring herself to be a Mother first and foremost, and First Lady when she has the time left over from looking after her children. Yup, The Mothers are back, along with The Grannies. Heaven help us, eh? ;0) |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM What was I saying earlier? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Common Sense From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM Columbus knew the earth was a ball because he was familiar with the writings of Copernicus. Copernicus's book wasn't published until 1543 and Columbus died in 1506. By Columbus's time nobody needed to argue that the earth was round anyway. |
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Subject: Obit: Common Sense From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM Somebody sent the following to my wife in an e-mail. Whether or not it was actually printed in the Times of London is largely irrelevant. It is still fun to read. Stephen Lee Rich An Obituary Printed In The London Times Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm; life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student, but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses, and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home, and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled some in her lap and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing. Threads combined. -Moderator |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: TRUBRIT Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:32 AM Funny - and sadly, true...... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:47 AM Nothing wrong with posting it of course, but.................. This thing has been floating around the net for as long as I can remember. At one time it was even used for a hoax virus as I recall. One of those typical "Don't Open" things with nothing to it, just a hoax.........I just now tried a few words of it in quotes on Google and got 290.000 hits so its got some years on it. But it is sad but true as TB said although I'd vote for an obit to the obit.{;<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: TRUBRIT Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:12 AM well--I had never heard it before but then I am not a big on line user......Mudcat and work email about covers it for me........... But I did think it had something to say..... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Gurney Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM Something to say? Now THAT'S what I call understatement. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:43 AM BRAVO!!!!!!!!!! STANDING OVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: meself Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:55 AM Wasn't this thing posted on here about a month ago? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: akenaton Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:52 AM A bit simplistic, but basically true.......but how the hell are we going to get it through to our "liberals"? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM Hey Ake, how ya' doin'? It got a bit heated over in the other thread...sorry to see it go that way, ...anyway, what do you play? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:42 AM Yes, meself - and it was just as tedious, ill-informed and reactionary then as it is now. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:18 AM "Wasn't this thing posted on here about a month ago?" Yes, by me..and it turned into the usual 'Daily Mail' hurling insults from a particular poster. Kind of stunned me somewhat. Previous 'common sense' thread I think, and still do, that it's an excellent piece...but then, you know me..'thick as a brick' an' all, apparently, so what the heck do I know. ;0) I tell you what, I know Common Sense when I see it, just as I know a Lack of Common Sense when I see it, and sadly, I see far more of the latter these days. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:49 AM " it turned into the usual 'Daily Mail' hurling insults from a particular poster." it was in reaction to the usual Daily Mail-screeching politics from a particular poster. Which didn't surprise me at all. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: akenaton Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM Funny thing about "liberals"....they always see an opposing point of view as "filth".......anyone who holds or supports an opposing point of view is said to be "spewing" or "vomiting" filth. After that they start on the personal insults! Now I suppose I'm an "extremist" politically; and starting to move in that direction socially, but would never dismiss other opinions in that sort of language.......how come??? Sanity my friend, I play guitar, not very well I'm afraid, but I still love it!......and you? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: akenaton Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:22 AM There's nothing wrong with taking some responsibility for our actions, in fact will never get a proper and fair society until we do. Its the mindset instilled in us all by Capitalism thats the basis of our problems and continuing the war between the two "isms" will never lead anywhere. Forget the old wars we should all use our brains and root out the causes.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM Silly little rant where anyone can pick out his or ger pet peeves and slide them in... Tho I agree with some of them, I don't agree with all of them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:31 AM But there's value in rants, Bobert... It's the soul's equivalent to taking an old car down the open road and gunning it just to clear the tubes. Runs much better after that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM (The older generation of) people have been moaning about the "death of common sense" ever since the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. They wrote similar heated complaints about the rise of "his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim" on the walls of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Greece, China, Constantinople, Tenochtitlan, and Rome. It's a frustrated rant that is as old as humanity themselves and it expresses the angst, frustration, and often ill-concealed bitterness of people whose days of youth and adventure are in most cases behind them, and who are constantly irritated by the fact that things just "aren't what they used to be". Things have never have been what they used to be, and they never will. ;-) That's life. But ..."Oh, God, it's such a drag! The world is so fucked up now, and no one takes responsibility! Oh dear. If I only had a rocket launcher, I'd make them take responsibility, damn right I would. Grrr!" (the sound of teeth grinding) You never hear whiny self-righteous reactionary crap like that from the young people, because they suffer from a very different form of angst, the angst of the young, hungry, often insecure and impatient...so from them you instead hear a load of whiny crap about how the old people (their parents) fucked the whole world up so badly that now a young person has 8 strikes against him and it's all going to hell. Now here's the ironical part of it all. On the one hand, they are both about half right (and always haved been). That's because common sense is always imperilled, in any human culture, at any time, because people have a weird way of doing things that are nonsensical. They always have done so. They always will. Sometimes it's because of politics, sometimes religion, sometimes sex, sometimes money, sometimes just plain goofy ideas and archaic customs that are taken as gospel, but you can count on it that common sense will take a beating in any society at any time. And on the other hand, they're both half bloody well wrong too. Why? Because they've both got a bad whiny flipping attitude about it, they're puffed up with righteous fury about it (as if they could see through it all, but the "society" around them can't), and they think it's all the fault of "those damn people", whoever "those damn people" are (liberals? conservatives? businessmen? lawyers? politicians? men? women? kids? old people? football fans? hairstylists? the poor? the rich? the middle class?), and they won't shut up about it and find a way to enjoy their lives instead and stop blaming others for everything. Nope. They'll just whine and rant and carp and complain about how bad everything has gone. I predict to you that this ancient announcement of the demise of common sense will be repeated frequently in the years to come, and again in the next century, and again a thousand years hence, so when you reincarnate, expect to see it again soon. You may even be the one who posts it the next time. ;-) You may also be the one who objects to it because it's a tired old rant that's been heard too many times already....that's what I have chosen to do this time. Either way, you'll get to bitch some more about the people who bug you and you'll have some more fun expressing yourself and airing your frustrations for all to hear. That's the up side. The downside is...it will just plain piss off the various people who instinctively decide to swing the other way on it. Kind of like politics that way... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Jeri Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:18 AM Apparently, the first posting of this was by Dave the Ancient Mariner in May of 2001. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:22 AM Hell no, Jeri. The first posting of it was in 353,000 B.C. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:27 AM I found the original posting, by a disgruntled Celt hunter who felt that using anything other than stone axes was unnecessarily complex and expensive, and a potential threat to the environment. Here's an extract: ÉÖ ÕÏÈ ØÁÍ ÑÅÁÄ ÔÇÉÓ, ÕÏÈ ÁÑÅ Á ÂÅÔÔÅÑ ÌÁÍ ÔÇÁÍ ÌÕÓÅËÖ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM Excellent! I do hope that the younger Celts of his time were duly impressed and mended their errant ways after reading that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:00 AM Blimey, I hadn't realised I was in the same company as George with the 'Common Sense' words above. You'd better take cover, George, and fast! LOLOL :0) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM I'd like to meet someone who is gruntled for a change... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM Littlel Hawk..all you gotta do is..follow this T shirt |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: George Papavgeris Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM It's no use, Lizzie, I have too much to cover! |
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Subject: BS: Obit.. Common Sense! From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:09 PM Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned, but overbearing, regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teenagers suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they had themselves failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer paracetamol, sun lotion or plaster to a pupil, but could not inform the parents when a pupil became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home, but the burglar could sue you for assault because you protected yourself and your own. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realised that he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:53 PM People were already complaining about the passing of common sense way back when Moses was negotiating with the Pharaoh...if not long before that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:53 PM He has many lookalikes though, very much alive. "It's all the Jews' fault", "Charity begins at home", "If a woman wears sexy clothes, it is her own fault...", "We won the war so we're right", "To fight the enemies of freedom effectively, we must control the world", etc. If the real one is dead, the false ones should be easier to unmask, who are typically highly honoured members of various political parties, religious and non-religious congregations. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 13 - 04:32 PM Quite so! To be free, question everything. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:03 PM Common sense???? It's in the music! gfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Bobert Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:19 PM Perfect example of the death of common sense is a posting of a 2 hour long you-tube... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Bill D Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:21 PM ???? Deja vu repeating itself ....all over again... **WHY**, Georgiansilver? I missed this thread the first couple of times, as it was 'born' when I was lost in craft shows. It is a surreal experience reading it from the top as the supposed topic morphs into conceptual avenues that boggle the jaded mind of even a hardened Mudcat reader. ..and it's weird, too.. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: number 6 Date: 14 Sep 13 - 12:40 AM common sense is just a myth. It is pretty well a proven fact that humans don't have the capability to practice common sense. If we had any sense at all we wouldn't be participating in any of these mindless, moronic threads here in the Madcat. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM Bobert: "Perfect example of the death of common sense is a posting of a 2 hour long you-tube..." Yeah!..who in their right 'common sense' mind would ever think of posting a 2 hour(and six minute) piece of wonderful music, on a musician's forum???? Just kind of shows you what politics will do!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:18 AM Oh...and here's a novel idea, with 'common sense'....listen to it....it's less harmful than another stupid, deceiving speech from a corrupt inapt politician!!! It'll do ya' some good! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:27 AM You notice a thread about the passing of common sense and wonder "I bet I know who will be bowling a yorker? " Hi Goofus! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Sep 13 - 11:17 AM You brought it up! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:44 PM ""Knowing why the early bird gets the worm; life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn)"" Almost exactly what Maggie Thatcher told the nation shortly after winning the election. And the icing on the cake is seeing dear old hard line lefty Akenaton saying: ""Subject: RE: Obit: Common Sense From: akenaton - PM Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:52 AM A bit simplistic, but basically true.......but how the hell are we going to get it through to our "liberals"? "" Proving that he had no idea vwhat a liberal is, then, or four years on today! Don T |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:08 PM Don, Forget what the politicians SAY...pay attention to what they DO. The two parties just take turns! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Bobert Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:29 PM Common sense is acquired from mixing it up and living life... Yes, it is sad that kids today are so over-protected that they aren't going to have a chance of achieving common sense... Most of us came up when our parents told us repeatedly to "beat it" which meant stay the heck away from them... No problem... But, hey, there are folks who should have gone thru that who didn't and ain't got a lick of common sense... To protected for their own good... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: The Sandman Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:45 PM common sense, was never common |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Musket musing Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:59 AM Common sense is a subjective problem. It describes your own take on things in a way that makes it appear better than others. Methinks most people are talking efficient sense rather than common sense, which is as Good Soldier Schweik points out, never common. It can't be because it describes your own view. Seeing less common sense applied around you is no more than accepting you are getting old. Buying an iPad made common sense to me whilst my father in law saves his money by heating a spare bedroom and having a desk with an old PC firing up slowly and him spending a couple of hours just to do his emails. That's common sense to him, same as having a car that is small to save money whilst questioning my big car on cost grounds. Mine doing 55mpg, his doing 30mpg, mine having lower car tax and insurance, but because his is small, it is common sense and saves him money whilst I must be throwing money away eh? Common sense is about the most subjective phrase I can think of. (Mind you, that's the car I collect next week. The 4x4 I have right now is a thirsty bugger....) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Georgiansilver Date: 15 Sep 13 - 04:21 AM I guess GUEST Musket musing... that it is 'common sense' for your father in law and many others in his position... that's how I see common sense.... It is common sense not to overstretch your budget..... not to walk in front of a bus or drive on the wrong side of the road... common sense for many if not all people..... or all who are in a similar position. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Musket curious Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:32 AM Correct. Except common sense is relative as I said. My father in law and myself being the example I gave. He thinks I spend money unnecessarily and I think he does. We would both use the term common sense to bolster our position. I also said age is important. I can't tell someone of his advancing years that a large car uses far less fuel than his small one, neither that we paid similar amounts for our cars or that being more tree huggingly planet friendly, mine is far cheaper to tax and insure, let alone using half the fuel. Neither that my ipad cost to the penny the same as the Dell desktop he asked us to get on his behalf. We tried explaining that he can do what he wishes far easier and from the comfort of his lounge rather than heat up the spare bedroom for two hours. .. But. He feels he exercises common sense. I feel I do. We are both right in our own estimation. But my bank balance at the end of the month will bear me out. . Why? Because a) it does and b) it is difficult to have a thread about common sense because we all think we have it. The thread becomes a list of things people agree with if you are not careful... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:52 AM I think the OP list of common sense values was expressed far more succinctly here - make of it what you will! Jim Carroll www.margaretthatcher.org/document/105087 |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Sep 13 - 09:50 PM "it is difficult to have a thread about common sense because we all think we have it." Dead right, Musket! That's what makes all these debates so funny. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:50 PM Muskrat, sans tail: " My father in law and myself being the example I gave." Cheers! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM Ah but Goofus. We don't need burnt out hippies to provide the thesis or antithesis of common sense. You provide one of them rather adequately. Do you know? It was only the other year that I realised what Loving Spoonful meant? 10cc for that matter. By the time I was playing, innuendo was out of the window. I was guitarist in Masturbating Malcolm and the Arse hole Lubricators. Funnily enough, some swine remember me more for that teenage fun than any of my serious shit later. Common sense? Dunno. Never had any myself. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:47 AM Muskrat: "Common sense? Dunno. Never had any myself." I'll remind you at the proper time! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Musket between courses Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM The good professor has more common sense than you and I put together, don't you boy? Woof! Grrrr. Woof! Evolution and common sense go hand in hand. He has a shit. I put it in a bag and carry it for him. You know Goofus, you and I may be banging the wrong rocks together after all. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST Date: 16 Sep 13 - 08:21 AM Because you can't argue with all the fools in the world. It's easier to let them have their way, then trick them when they're not paying attention." ― Christopher Paolini |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 16 Sep 13 - 08:24 AM Opps, common sense says the last post was me- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: The Sandman Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:25 PM "Nonsense is so good only because common sense is so limited" |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:16 PM Ho hum. Common Sense is a fictional concept. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: The sad passing of Common Sense From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:58 PM Ho hum...or is that, Common concept is fictional Sense...or something like that! GfS |
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