BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves

Subject: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 03:16 PM

For those who care about the language. Well, SOME of us do...

http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Nancy King at work
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

Well, I got one wrong. More studying needed, I guess.

By the way, this is a WONDERFUL book! A great gift idea for anyone who values language. Last year I gave a copy to a relative of mine who is a writer, and he loved it!

Nancy

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: MMario
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 03:29 PM

I got all the comma ones correct, but the apostrophes defeated me. I cannot see how they were treating the plural posessive.

Why should kittens' coats be correct when we are now told that a trailing apostrophe is incorrect even for a possesive.

And why is it "yards' worth" ? That makes no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 03:59 PM

If someone refers to "the kitten's paws" there is only one kitten. If it's "the kittens' paws" the reader knows that there are at least two kittens.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: MMario
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 04:09 PM

I know that! What I am saying is that I have had proofreaders who insist that "kittens paws" is correct and that an apostrophe is unnecessary and un-gramatical when used with a simple plural.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: jeffp
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 04:31 PM

Those proofreaders are wrong. It happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Bainbo
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:40 PM

Maybe it's an American thing. You guys have a way of streamlining the language, taking out extraneous letters so the spelling makes sense.

I agree with MMario, though. If I saw "kittens paws" I wouldn't know how many kittens were involved.

I came across exactly this situation while editing some text for publication. The writer had referred to "the rail operators 837 complaints." Rail deregulation here means several train companies may have services on the same piece of track. I didn't know whether he meant one or all of them - context didn't make it clear. That's why punctuation's important!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:02 PM

I'm more irritated by the greengrocer's apostrophe, as used even by mudcatters. For example, "His songs in the 70's were terrible."
Putting "70's" makes as little sense as saying,"I'm taking my book's to my room."
In both cases, we're talking simple plurals, which don't require that bloody apostrophe.
Where DO people get the habit from?

And I'm a bit fed up with all those unnecessary "up"s and "up with"s, as in "head up the team", "we met up with her at 10", never mind "upcoming" instead of "forthcoming".

Oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:16 PM

60's and 70's are well established usage by the most pedantic pedants. Sorry, but that's how it is. "60s" just looks ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:22 PM

70's looks better than 70s (which is a serial number) and is an allegory for " the decade of the years between 1970 and 1979 (& 365/365.25's)".

Apostrophe - now when is the possessive not an implied and when is the abbreviation not a posessive and what about it's its. I never could figure the mnemonic for those two, too. There ain't no logic - it just is.

Now what are the plural of data? (or modem come to think of it)
and why is opera a collection of songs wot we call individually an opus? Plural of opera is.............

It(?)s anarchy out there and language lives or we call it LATIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:30 PM

WithyouIvor!My new blood pressure raiser is " could of" instead of could've. The web's littered with it. What do teachers do these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:34 PM

To me, 70's looks (and is) wrong except in e.g."The 70's style of music is....).
To me, 70s looks no better or worse than books, both being simple plurals.
Incidentally, the 70s actually ran from 71- 80. perhaps that needs a NEW THREAD.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:36 PM

It was "kittens coats". If one of them took another's coat, he should give it back.

Apostrophes may be used in plurals of numbers (as above) or in plurals of acronyms. "The DVD's are over there." Personally, I don't use them in plurals unless there's a problem with readability because they look silly.

I got one wrong, and I got it wrong because I thought, "Hmmm. I'd stick a comma there, but I'm probably wrong, and there IS no comma."

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:05 PM

You've got your millenia mixed up with your collections-of-years-starting-with-the-same-number.

The 70s include years that start with a 7 -- 70 - 79
The 7th decade of the 20th century inludes 1961 through 1970

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:27 PM

Won't thread-drift more than te say, cah, there was me thinking the 70s were a decade, in the terms you rightly lay down, the eighth.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:36 PM

Read this tome several years ago. Found it to be a lot of fun. I believe that the author, who is British, did note some differences between American English and the other kind in the preface or introduction to the American publication. Bravo to Saul Goldie for starting this topic!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 07:43 PM

I often think of threads such as this as pedant-offs, this being the 2005 Smackdown. As King John from Hull might say if he were here, "This is a punctuation therad, not a numbr thred," so I'll stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM

"Could of instead of could've" beg to differ but" could have" I think!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:13 PM

Guest
Datum, pl. data

Opus, pl. opera; opuses also accepted in Webster's (U. S.). A Latin word.
Opera (e. g. Lohengrin). pl. operas (several Wagner operas will be performed). This is the Italian word.

An example of recent change- index, pl. indices; becoming obsolete, indexes preferred in current dictionaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:18 PM

Why is it that, when it comes to grammar, experts, for the most part, often disagree often, in a most distastful, disastrous way.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:24 PM

Whoops! I got a new keyboard which does not register as fast as I type. . When I hit "submit message," I saw that the e was left out of distasteful, and, I, evidently, missed an opportunity for a comma, in a rather peculiar potential place.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 08:29 PM

I believe that the proper punctuation of the aforementioned decade is '70s because it is a contraction of 1970s. I don't believe that the apostrophe should go between the 0 and the s because, if the word seventies is spelled out, it does not require an apostrophe. I suppose that the proper way of spelling it out should be 'seventies.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 09:10 PM

There is no last word on grammar. That's why there are style guides.

"If you take hyphens seriously you shall surely go mad" - Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 09:12 PM

100% correct - I kiss by the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 10:41 PM

I heard Lynne Truss in a radio interview a year or so ago, got her book from the library, read it, and straightaway bought a copy. It sits next to my copy of Elements of Style by Strunk and White.

Funny lady. Explains the whats, whys, and wherefores of punctuation very clearly.

By the way, the plural of modem is modems. Simple as that. If it were Latin, i.e., "modum," then the plural would probably be "modi" (or "modae" if it were deemed feminine), but it isn't. It's computerese, a contraction made up of "modulator-demodulator."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 11:30 PM

70's does appear to be contraction, and therefore missing elements ought to be represented by an apostrophe.

Even if this is not absolutely correct, it is usually obvious in everyday usage that we are referring to the decade between 1969 and 1980. It is tedious both to write and read "nineteen-seventies" everywhere. Even in more scholarly works, I believe only dedicated pedants would cavil at the usage e.g. "1670's".

I agree that 70s doesn't look quite right. Seventy shillings ? A gigantic pair of trousers with short inside leg ?

****

I take the view that, if someone thinks and communicates logically, minor slips of punctuation (or typographical errors) will not change or obscure the meaning of what is written. The sentence, "Eats, shoots and leaves" might be incorrect and even raise a titter; but where in the real world do pandas carry firearms ?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Wanderer
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 11:45 PM

The use of the apostrophe to indicate a plural made with numbers (70's) is well established and is cvere din the Chicago Manual of Style. There is nothing improper about it.

The use of datums as a plural of datum is becoming acceptable in technical circles where a datum has specialized meaning, notably in map making and geographical information systems.

Wanderer

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: open mike
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:15 AM

my favorite sigtn is one by a country stor that says:
Truck's welcome.

One of my pet peeves is when people say "anyways"
when the "s" is not needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Deda
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:32 AM

In Latin, "modum" would probably be a (hypothetical) 2nd declension neuter noun, and the plural of modum would then be moda, just as the plural of datum is data. If it were masculine instead of neuter it would go to "-i" in the plural -- as in radius, radii.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:26 AM

ABOLISH POSSESSIVE APOSTROPHES!!!!

They are only in the language because some benighted pedant back in the 16th century took the possessive ending -s (exactly the same as in German, where they don't have this hangup) to be a contraction of "his". Lord Herries His Complaynt and all that.

Time to drop them. They add absolutely nothing to sense or clarity, we only cling to them because Miss Wright might hit us on the knuckles with a ruler if we skip them. If you get marginal cases where the meaning could be ambiguous, use an explaining phrase if it needs to be clarified. "The paws of the kittens" for example. except it's difficult to imagine a case where it would be essential to know if there was one kitten or more. And anyway it only works in writing, as we don't pronounce the apostrophe.

And it gets rid of all those conundra (oy!) like how to pronounce "Jones's".

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 05:34 AM

Guest ivor at 06.02 PM

Along with the 'ups', could we cut down on:

'in terms of' - usually you can remove the 'terms of', leaving a clearer meaning;

'set', as in 'the weather is set to get colder', 'interest rates are set to rise' - as if someone has set it all up and is just waiting for the right moment to push a button or fire a starting gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:02 AM

Yeeees, SharonA., that's it. '70s is right, and people get to have an apostrophe.
I hope that is polite and friendly enough to satisfy anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM

I was confused by the American spelling of "colour". Were we supposed to be punctuating for American or English English?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 07:50 AM

I'm not sure that Paul Burke's story about possessive apostrophes is more than folklore.
The apostrophe in English is used to indicate a missing letter - it was originally used for possessives because in most Middle English nouns the remnants of the Anglo-Saxon genitive was   "es" - and the e was often omitted...hence the apostrophe.
Example: boy;possessive = boyes;modern _boy's

Great fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:17 AM

Yes, '70s is correct, and take it from the girl who just took a load of grammar in school.

Don Firth- Deda is correct. If the form "modum" were to be anything in Latin it would be second declension, neuter, and the plural would be -a. I'm staring at my Latin notes right now because my final is tomorrow. Weep for me. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:40 AM

In England and in English literature "could've" is common when used as direct speech as a shortening of could have.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:02 AM

According to Kate Turabian and A Manual for Writers of Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations (which parallels the Chicago Manual of Style), the correct useage is 1970s (or 70s). This is noted under both "DECADE" and "PLURALS OF NUMBERS" in the Numbers section. All academic pedants have a copy of Terabian on their desks.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:45 AM

Have it your own way..

No one really knows. I prefer the 'his' story as its history.

" In 1559, the apostrophe appeared in England in William Cunningham's The
Cosmographical Glasse (Parkes, 1993, p. 55). Sixteenth century English printers
developed the mark to indicate omissions, but this convention is not as simple as it might
sound. Initially, the apostrophe was intended to demonstrate the elision of a vowel,
meaning the vowel sound had been omitted, assimilated, or slurred in pronunciation, as in
th' inevitable end, but the apostrophe was also used to indicate a missing letter when the
vowel no longer existed in the spoken form, as in can't (Parkes, 1993, p.55). Not
th
surprisingly, there was much confusion concerning its usage until the middle of the 19
century, when printers and grammarians attempted to devise rules to govern the usage of
apostrophes (Crystal, 1995, p. 203). Despite their efforts, however, much confusion
remains today.   

The use of the apostrophe to denote possession has its origins in Old English, which
frequently attached the genitive singular ending –es to nouns. Hook (1999), points out
that 60% of all nouns in Old English formed their genitive cases in this manner (p. 44); it
is therefore not surprising that the current genitive ending –s has survived in Modern
English. The apostrophe could be viewed as a way in which to mark the deleted vowel –
e of the –es possessive ending, "derived from the Old English strong masculine genitive
singular inflection" (Blockley, 2001, p. 35). Adrian Room (1989, p. 21) provides support
for this view, citing the Old English word for stone, stän, whose genitive form was
stänes.

Hook (1999) maintains, however, that the apostrophe is "a mere printer's gimmick,
doubtless born of the mistaken notion that the genitive ending was a contraction of his"
(p. 44). An invention of mortals, the apostrophe has indeed been subject to human error.
The –es genitive ending,

often spelled and pronounced –ies or –ys in early Middle English, was
confused as early as the thirteenth century with his, the possessive of
he, so that Shakespeare could later write 'the count his gally', and even
expressions like 'my sister her watch' appeared (qtd. in Hook, 1999,
pp. 44-45).

The unstressed pronunciation of the genitive –es seemed to have caused many speakers to
believe they were saying his. This usage presumably caused pronunciation problems and
gender confusion with a noun such as woman or girl, or a plural noun like winners, but
nevertheless was quite common (Hook, 1975, p.160).   The apostrophe became a sort of
"compromise" to indicate either the missing –e in the genitive ending
–es, or the hi of the mistaken possessive indicator his (Hook, 1999, p. 45). "

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:45 AM

It's all degenerated since the nineteenth century when multiple apostrophe's were considered correct in a single word: Lewis Carroll abbreviated "shall not" as "sha'n't"

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Charmion
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:51 AM

Speaking as a professional editor and a 100% stickler, I am here to say it's '70s or seventies. I strongly discourage the poor suffering Public Affairs Officers in my shop from using apostrophes for anything but possessives -- the dear lambs can keep one rule straight, but not two. Consequently, contractions are for their off-duty hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

Poor suffering Public Affairs Officers... at whose hands are they poor and suffering? Oh dear.
(By the way, Charmion, we know each other. I'm Sarah, one of the song-circle pipsqueaks from Goderich Celtic Fest. Don't know if you knew that.)

Cheers, Seiri.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: s&r
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:15 PM

It would be boring if all the style manuals agreed. They don't. What most publishers settle on is a house style, which offers consistency of usage. One of my employers used a house manual to lay down rules such as which type would be used for various purposes.

Authors don't always like the house style: their instructions should then be followed (eg e e cummings).

I didn't like the open punctuation developed by the Civil Service: I now prefer the uncluttered appearance it gives to the page.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:42 PM

The point is that many (most?) people don't give a fat rat's patootie about grammar or thoughftul word useage. Sometimes the resulting confusion is merely amusing. Sometimes, it can be downright dangerous. Often, it makes necessary more clarification before complete understanding is achieved.

I would rather take some time to be as clear and understandable as I can and that others would, also. Then, we can have more time for making music, having another beer, or taking a nap. Of course, the source material for most TV sitcoms would not exist. Eh, whatareyagonnado?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:18 PM

I like the Prentice-Hall "Handbook for Writers" because their directions are simply stated.
Supposedly we learned the rules in school, but watching the sky outside the room, or dipping pigtails in inkwells was more interesting.

The APOSTROPHE (extracted)
Brief enuf' t' tape t' yer PC. (or is that en'uf' ?) (or jes' enuf?)

Use an apostrophe to show the possessive case of nouns and indefinite pronouns.
1. If the word does not end in s, add an ' and s to form the possessive
the woman's book, the women's book, people's books
2. If the singular of a word ends in s, add an ' and s unless the second s makes pronunciation difficult; in such cases, add only the '.
Lois's car, Moses' leadership
3. If the plural of a word ends in s, add only the '.
The girls' locker room, the Smiths' house
4. In compounds, make only the last word possessive
father-in-law's pipe, mothers-in-law's birthdays, someone else's fault
5. In nouns of joint possession, make only the last noun possessive; in nouns of individual possession, make both nouns possessive.
John and Paul's office
John's and Paul's offices

A table of singular and plural possessives
child   child's   children   children's
passer-by   passer-by's   passers- by   passers-by's
etc.

Use an apostrophe to indicate the omission of a letter of number.
doesn't does not; it's it is;
blizzard of '89 blizzard of 1889
will-o'-the-wisp will of the wisp; o'clock of the clock

In reproduction of speech- dialect, colloquial.
"An' one o' the boys is goin' t' be sick," he said.
[Anyways, it don' make no nevuh mind no ways- added for Open Mike]

Use an ' and s to form the plurals of letters, numbers, and words used as words.
Cross your t's and dot your i's.
The 1970's were known as the 'me' decade. ['70's]
Eliminate unnecessary and's.
These are the only kinds of situations in which the ' is used in forming plurals. It is never used in forming the plurals of proper names or other nouns.

Do not use the ' with the possessive forms of personal pronouns
his father, an idea of hers, a friend of theirs.

Be careful not to confuse the possessive pronoun its with the contraction it's (it is).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:20 PM

Hey, get off my case, folks! I wasn't trying to give anybody a Latin lesson as I don't speak the language (obviously). It just looked to me that GUEST was assuming that "modem" is a Latin word, which it is not. Now, pig latin, on the other hand. . . .

English is a wonderful language, provided you can manage the subtleties. For example:

". . . one stewardess, two stewardi; one blouse, two blice. . . ."                                                                     —Shelley Berman

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:13 PM

Just keeping things accurate, Don. Didn't mean to get on your case. :-)

Cheers, Seiri.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

Yot find me a humanitable and I'll eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

???

Food, at a guess

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:02 PM

We had terrible trouble persuading a sign making company not to put an apostrophe before the "s" in "The Hildebrands". It was to 'stand alone like that out'side the hou'se.
There are 'so many 'sign's out here on the Grocer's, the Butcher's, al'so on truck's and car's. I under'stand that it's an 's thing. 's's's'e's have attracted the apo'strophe's and it's 'so 'strong, thi's force, that there's no 'stopping them now. Cheer's and happine's's.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:46 PM

Q. Could you say why, in your wonnerfully learned and accurate disquisition, you had to put "1970's" and "70's".
From the rest of your piece, I don't find the logic in the apostrophes.
Another I've noticed is "CD'S"

If we feel strongly enough about it, we needn't lie down and say helplessly,"The tide of opinion is too strong."
I've recently got fed up with broadcasters using "that begs the question", so, rather than accept the supposed inevitable, I fired a couple of emails. Now bbc Radio 4 & 5 have reverted to "raising the question" and even begun using "posing the question". Reeeesult.