Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?

Subject: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:00 AM

Has anyone else ever checked the keys of songs sung in movies, where a singer actually asks for a song to be played in a certain key. Over the years we have. We've found many where the requested key is not the one used for the song. We had a list once but it went astray. Two very obvious examples we remember from musicals are:

In the film - Show Business
Eddie Cantor sings - "Curse of a Broken Heart"
Asks for it to be played in the key of E.
Then it's played in D.

In the film - Singing in the Rain
Debbie Reynolds sings - "Singing in the Rain".
Asks for it to be played in the key of Ab.
Then it's played in E.

These are lines delivered by singers. They must have noticed. Is this a movie in-joke? Hildebrand is a keen movie buff. He's never seen this mentioned in a movie book or review. Any one else noticed? Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:31 AM

"'In the Jailhouse Now', boys, neighbourhood of 'B'"

- from "O Brother, Where Art Thou"

I wonder . . . .

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:43 AM

Someone with the DVD to check it out?

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:37 PM

"In the Jailhouse Now" in B???

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:59 PM

Yep, it's in the neighborhood of B, that is to say, just a hair flat on B by my music program. Who sings in B, anyway? Delmar says it to the pickup band, and nobody even blinks, and the dobro just comes right in, in the key of B-.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:01 PM

I've noticed it before, particularly the Debbie Reynolds bit you mentioned--though, for some reason, it never occurred to me to keep track(I guess I always thought I'd remember)--

You're right, it seems like everyone would know about it-- movies are notorious for inside jokes--though it is completely possible that on the set, the music was in a different key than in the finished movie--

At any rate, I have also noticed other related things, such as guitars being played in a key different than the one you hear, and say, a trumpet solo coming out of a saxophone, along with the standard routine where someone sings while playing the piano, then gets up to dance while the piano still plays--

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:18 PM

M Ted, Yes we notice those things too. I guess musicians tend to. Concertinas that are piano accordians, wrong type of guitar, wrong type of banjo - that's a common one.

It was years ago that we first noticed the wrong key thing, but like you we thought we'd remember. I'd start a new list every time we noticed and then we'd file it somewhere and lose it.
It's the old musicals where it happens. There are a few movies where someone fronts up to a piano and says "Play it in...". It does seem deliberate somehow. There seems to be no need to even mention the key - but they do. I think it's a well hidden joke.

Thanks, Barbara. That sorts out that one. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:51 PM

The "play it in ..." line may have just been something that one would commonly hear in public places in earlier eras. Real piano bars in the speakeasys, where customers would sing, apparently were much more common once upon a time - although that may be just a fairy tale.

So far as I know, it was never common to record the sound and the pictures at the same time, and even in the old days clipping a few frames from the picture part may have caused the techs to speed up or slow down the sound to maintain synch, which means that you can't usually tune to a movie - or to many current commercial CDs for that matter. Standin "voices" were (and probably are) used a lot, so the voice you hear often is not the voice of the actor/actress who played the part.

Real "bloops," like the naked "Invisible Man" leaving tracks of shoes, are something of an embarassment to the movie folk, but no one was ever concerned that no "barber" in any movie ever made knew how to strop a razor.

John

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:22 PM

It used to be fairly common, back when all the club bands basically knew the same material, for a singer who was just sitting in, to call the tune and the key--I learned how to play everything in every key(pretty easy on guitar), as well as the simple trick of changing back to the standard key for solos--the old standard fake book used to have a chart in the front with the original keys for all the tunes--

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:10 PM

Wow...interesting observation!

Joybell, please expand upon you insight, epiphany, true-pitch.

I do not (two progarms perhaps a year, by will, and maybe six a year if the holidays with inlaws DEMAND) watch video, TV, or go to the movies.

This observation "could" become a "reason" to view a few more....while I can transpose into any key....I still cannot ALWAYS determain (other than the big five) the key "by ear."

If someone declared

B

and a sax was present....of course it is B-flat.

This thread has the promise of becoming one of those "MUDCAT GREATS!!!" found only in the .org

I would like to read more. Your thread is a perfect example of a musical thread that should not be given the 24-hour AX-of-EXTINCTION...but this thread should be placed in a third area (OK - below the "below the line") a THIRD ZONE where "serious business" is discussed....and the "chit-chat" of "shine-ola" and "happenings" and "MP3" is left to the mewing, fawning, audiophiles of a lesser-calling...that should use the "Schat-Room."

Let threads like these - run for a week. Some of our "best" (on subjects like this) are not available for comment more than once a week...and in some cases once a month.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:20 AM

So glad you like the idea, Gargoyle. I really think it's an interesting study, even though I doubt if the collected knowledge will actually be of any benefit. I have to confess that we have only managed to check the key of songs when we are watching movies at home. It happens like this:

Me: Quick, Hildebrand grab the guitar. Here's the note Hmmmmmmmmm.
Hildebrand: Hmmmmmm. Key of whatever. Just a minute I'll turn on the piano. Yep, key of whatever all right.

Nowadays we usually watch films on DVD or video and it's easy then. Good luck with the key spotting, Gargoyle. I'll be interested in your observations.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:46 AM

I have a CD on which there is a song in the key that I would expect. Before I bought the CD, I had the same album on a commercially produced tape cassette. This played the song at something like a quarter of a tone below that expected and was impossible to play along with on any correctly in-tune instrument. Obviously my tape player was running slower than it should have been.

The "Singing in the Rain" example of Ab to E does seem to be rather extreme but perhaps, if it's not too far from the requested key, it could be a problem of reproduction rather than an actual mistake.

DC

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:42 AM

Doug C -

It's not at all uncommon for the "mixer" who sets up a tape or CD to speed up or slow down an original studio recording to make it fit to an alloted "timeslot" on the published tape/CD, and this quite often causes a pitch shift (or, if you will, a key change). Certain artists, or the studios they use, are pretty good about producing "on pitch" published records, but others make it an exercise in masochism to try to "find their pitch" to play along with the record.

The tendency to do it deliberately probably is less today, at least with the "name performers" since it seems half (or less) filled CDs sell for the same price as ones that're more or less full. No need to "squeeze" the pieces to get it all on.

It is possible that your tape player wasn't up to speed; but it's also possible that they just "adjusted the pitch" to fill the tape.

With the movie bit, the possibility exists that the soundtrack was recorded while the "dubbers" watched an early edit of the film, and the soundtrack was later matched to a "retake" where they danced a little faster or slower. A simple speed change on the tape could match things up to the dance steps, or sych with the lips, but would change the apparent key. It probably has always been easier to synch things by changing the sound speed/pitch than to change the frame rate of the video.

John

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:12 AM

yeah but what about those films where the guitar is not played and yet they pretend to be playing it.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:34 AM

It's not at all uncommon for the "mixer" who sets up a tape or CD to speed up or slow down an original studio recording to make it fit to an alloted "timeslot" on the published tape/CD, and this quite often causes a pitch shift (or, if you will, a key change).

With digital recording, it is possible to speed up or slow down recordings without any pitch shift. You can do it on a home computer using Windows media player. Very useful for learning tunes :-)

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Splott Man
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

The plot of Singin' in the Rain is that Debbie Reynolds' character, Kathy, had to overdub the voice of Jean Hagen's character, Lina Lamont, whose own voice was best suited to silent movies.

Wasn't it the case that the reverse happened for the film because the producers weren't confident about Debbie Reynolds' own voice, her being a newcomer to films?

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Allan C.
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:09 AM

Gotta agree with breezy about the guitar thing. What I've never understood is why the actors involved never even bothered to learn a single chord fingering in order to at least give a semblance to actual playing of the instrument. It appears this was an issue to Johnny Cash as well. When the film of his life was being cast he insisted that whoever played his part should "at least know how to hold a guitar properly."

I recall an interview with an actress many decades ago in which she revealed that she pretended to be ironing clothes with both hands in order to give the impression that she was playing the piano in a film. Of course, the camera was posed so that her hands were never actually seen.

But I digress...

The entire premise for this thread impresses me greatly. And here I thought I was anal! You folks put me to shame.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:26 AM

Johnny Cash requiring someone to hold a guitar properly? Come on, John himself loved to move it all over. I recall him often tucking the lower bout nearly under his chin with his left-hand way out there.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

Splott Man, Yes it's true - acording to the Internet Movie Data base, that Jean Hagan actually used her own voice rather than that of Debbie Reynolds for the movie within a movie, shown in "Singing in the Rain."

As to the idea about the speeding up or slowing down of movie sound tracks. I don't buy it. I still think that the different key thing is a deliberate in joke.

The examples of non-existant guitars and the like are more like slack mistakes.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:35 PM

This problem never occurs in Eastern European folk circles ... ;o)

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:57 PM

To pick up the point Gargoyle raised. The 24 hour default for the time filter on the Mudcat can be a bit of a nuisance, especially when the Mudcat goes down for a bit. I don't think grading threads for quality and a time extension would work though.

Easier thing would be to adjust the filter manually, if you've been away a bit, and then add a post to the more interesting threads that have slipped away, so as to refresh them.
........................

I'd imagine that most times what happens would be, a script writer would pluck a key out of the air pretty arbitrarily, and the actors would say it, and the actual music would be recorded seperately, and subsequently. And I can't see it going down too well if someone at a late stage said "You'll have to go back and shoot that scene again, because she said D instead of G".

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:37 PM

Those film guitars often didn't even have strings, owing to the fact that metal strings can reflect light back into the camera--as far as the piano business goes, there are people whose only job is to teach people to move their hands so that it looks like they are playing the piano--Ya gotta love Hollywood!

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM

Back in the olden days, recordings used to be off just a bit. Sometimes more than a bit. The rate at which the platter rotated on when the Music was cut into the wax or whatever might be exactly 78rpm. Then the record was made, and was sold to the listener who put it on the home victrola. There was a lever one could use to speed up or slow down the rotation speed. Sometimes I wish there were something like that now.
Imagine how off the records could be when the early record companies worked out of homes & garages in the 50's & 60's.
I recall that the Beatles early songs were recorded on Capital records-hi fi! -in the USA, but the pitch was often "between the cracks." A friend of mine who had perfect pitch used to go crazy. I still remember those old Beatles songs "in the between the cracks keys" to this day.
There is absolutely no excuse for the key to be incorrect on cd's or dvd's or on film in this day of high tech!
Now I suppose we're going to have to argue the merits of whether pitch in one spot of the globe or another is correct.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 11:00 PM

Breezy and Mr. Ted:

Until this thread, I did not recognize the EXTREAM annoyance, in films like S of M brought because of the lack of correct chord strumming.

From childhood, those scenes have had an unrecognized angst.

I have sort of accepted that "actors are not musicians"....and willingly gone along with "the act." However, if they were "Real Actors" they would take at least as much time to learn the pantomime...as they do to deliver a paltry display of words in a play.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:16 AM

I understand the idea of recording the songs at a different time to the shooting of the rest of the film, but these are musicals. They're about songs. Debbie Reynolds and Eddie Cantor are singers. The director of "Singin' in the Rain" specialized in musicals (although he may have used a musical director). My gut feeling, for what it's worth, is still that these are in-jokes.

Anyway has anyone noticed any other examples like the two we started with? I'll post more as we find them again. I'm sure eventually we will. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:41 AM

Those with a real interest in a thread can apply a "trace" so that it will stay handy on their personal page.

The only suggestion I'd make for a possible 'cat update is that the only place you can click on "trace" is in the thread listing. It might be helpful occasionally if you could tag a thread to be traced from inside the thread, perhaps with a button added in the header(?).

Now, if someone gives you a link to a thread that you find interesting, about the only way to trace it is to post something so the thread comes up in the listing, and go to the listing to click trace.

John

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:58 AM

In teh blee box just under your post it says in white letters underlined 'Add_To_Tracer'

Get some sleep John! :-p

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:00 AM

Ahem - John, just below my post is the message box, and just above it is a dark blue line with white writing which says:

Add to Tracer (or delete from Tracer if you've already traced it)          Translate page from (followed by a drop down menu)          Translate.

If you click on Add to Tracer, it traces the thread.

I can't believe I'm saying this to JohninKansas!!

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:01 AM

Heh! If I hadn't mucked around with HTML I would've beaten ya, Robin :-)

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Splott Man
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:14 AM

In High Society, Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly are in a rowing boat and he's "playing" the concertina while they sing True Love. I seem to remember it sounds nothing like a concertina.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:29 PM

Yes, Splott Man, I think we had noticed that one. I've noticed that the fake concertina is common. So is the fake 5-string banjo - where it sounds like a tenor banjo. Maybe I'll start a new list for those too. I love making lists. We had to make a master list so that we'd know what was in the list file.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 05:26 PM

Kaleea, the pitch on most of the old 45's that I had was generally pretty good, as long as you used a turntable with a strobe so you could keep the turntable speed precise--The same recordings, now remastered and released on CD, and, it turns out, even a lot of old 78 recordings, now on CD, are pretty true to pitch.

One of the problems I have with new "pop" recordings is that they don't sound real--pitch is evened out digitally, harmonies are added with a harmonizer, and their is none of that edge that the natural variations in pitch used to create.   Even all that shmaltzy music that I used to loathe sounds great compared to the stuff passes for popular music these days--

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: thespionage
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 10:03 PM

Speaking of noticeably wrong instruments, Kermit the Frog plays a four-string banjo (left-handed, I might add) in The Muppet Movie in "The Rainbow Connection," but it sounds like it may be a six-string banjo. Does anyone have more information on the song? Thanks.

Russ

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 10:08 PM

"Who sings in B?"--Bill Monroe sang and played in B--just to be difficult?

Subject: RE: Musical Anomalies in Movies
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 04:41 PM

Here's a few headings. I've started the lists.

KEY SPECIFIED BY SINGER. SONG THEN PLAYED IN DIFFERT KEY.

1. In the film - "Show Business" Eddie Cantor sings - "Curse of a Broken Heart"
Asks for it to be played in the key of E. Then it's played in D.

2. In the film - "Singin' in the Rain" Debbie Reynolds sings - "Singin' in the Rain".
Asks for it to be played in the key of Ab. Then it's played in E.


ACTOR PRETENDS TO PLAY INSTRUMENT. A DIFFERENT INSTRUMENT ON SOUNDTRACK.

1. In "The Fugitive Kind" Marlon Brando, in a boxcar, sings and plays a crap acoustic guitar. Electric guitar on soundtrack. Interesting point here is that Brando, portraying a professional musician in New Orleans, refers to the guitar as his "life's companion", and has carved the names of Leadbelly and Blind Lemon on its face. The guitar shown is one of those shallow plywood jobs with a tailpiece, that you could buy for $19.95 new. Leadbelly or Blind Lemon would have used it for kindling. Brando wears a snakeskin jacket that he could sell and buy a decent guitar, which any real guitarist would do.

2. Noted by Splott Man. In "High Society" Bing Crosby sings "True Love" while playing a concertina. Chromatic accordion on soundtrack. (Big chords with bass notes - not possible on concertina.)

3. In "The Human Comedy" Van Johnson gives a concert playing a large concertina. Chromatic accordion on soundtrack.

4. thespionage notes - In "The Muppet Movie" Kermmit the Frog playing wrong sort of Banjo.

And - The other side of the coin:
EXAMPLES OF GREAT LENGTHS TAKEN, BY MUSICIANS AND/OR DIRECTORS TO ACHIEVE AUTHENTICITY.

1. In "Horse Feathers" Groucho Marx plays a proper good quality guitar (very well) while floating in a boat. He's singing his own cynical version of "Everyone Says I Love You". Just before he throws the guitar in the river there's a subtle cut and the guitar is switched to become a cheap one.

A start, Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: thespionage
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 04:51 PM

Great examples, Joybell. Judging by your last heading, I think you'd agree that we should condone Groucho's behavior in Horse Feathers.

Anyone know more about the Kermit thing? Thanks.

Russ

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 10:16 PM

JoyBell - You are a true joy!

It is my belief that ALL the Marx brothers were musical/classical in at least one instrument.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Fair Warning...Eastern Europe...Reluctantly necessary to "shed my skin"... I am humbled to go into MudShat...to connect to the old empire of the USSR.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 05:04 PM

Yes indeed, Gaygolye and Russ and thank you. It's a frightning moment when Groucho is balancing that guitar. A friend of mine once dropped his accordion in Botany Bay. Fished it out somehow and it still played - no worries! Not sure what that means but it just goes to show something.

We're always going back to watching the Marx Brothers movies. The musical numbers are always beautifully done. Horse feathers is an interesting one, musically speaking, because there are several versions of the song "Eveyone Says I Love You" all sung (played in the case of Harpo) in different ways, by different brothers, and with different words. I really like Chico's version with his amazing piano accompaniment and silly fake accent.

I wonder if Kermit always plays the wrong sort of banjo? We've got some old bits from the TV show somewhere. Be worth a look if we can find them.

Onward, upward and sideways.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 09:08 PM

Maybe that was Marlon's ideal guitar for hopping freights...don't ya have to throw your gear on first then jump on yerself?

Although the point is well taken. At the risk of starting a discussion I don't want to start, I have heard a folksinger defined as "someone with a thousand-dollar guitar and a $50 car." (Or maybe they were just talking about me)

On the TV show "Family Ties", the younger sister, played by Tina Yothers, used to sing sometimes. In one episode that stuck in my mind for some reason, she was showing off her teenybopper band and instructed them "(name of song), in A flat". Struck me as highly unlikely. But I didn't check the key...a bunch of kids is highly unlikely to hit anything in A flat. I can't think of any good reason for it myself, unless one's capo needs to feel wanted.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM

Singer does not rich

Theatre owner does not get rich

Loan company forcloses - and has no use for the theatre

Property rots, singer starves, theatre owner gets divorce

Where is the reality that all the Jews make the money?

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: jonm
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:28 AM

I read somewhere that transfer of movies to DVD causes pitch changes due to a different number of frames per second, or schanning frequency, or something.... Film durations also change as a result. Don't know if it's true.

Is it possible that in the films listed above, if someone had said "Singin' in the Rain, in A" a lot of the non-musicians in the audience would be asking "in a what?" so the film-makers have deliberately chosen key names which would be obvious to everyone.

Although, of course, "in E" would still confuse a Yorkshireman.

Kermit the frog is left handed, which is why a tenor banjo is accessible but a 5 string would be impossible to play. He's still a mean picker, even though they overdubbed him!

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:57 AM

British television works at 25 frames per second.
Films are shot at 24 frames per second, but transmitted without modification, therefore run about 4 per cent faster than in the cinema (which is why the timings appear to be shorter than listed in cinemas and on american dvds) I don't know how much this will affect the pitch of music, but its bound to have some effect.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM

We started to notice this well before DVDs. The above examples were taken from TV well before the use of them. Also the differences are more than slight. I did think of the possibility that Jean Hagan, who is using a silly accent, sounded funnier saying "Ab". However she would have sounded almost as funny saying "E".

Thanks, Willie-O. We'll keep an ear open for that one.

Marlon Brando kept that guitar because it sounded just like an electric one. You would wouldn't you.
Prob'ly started with an amplifier, guitar, lunch, bed roll, clean underwear, and a dog, but by the time he got them all in a boxcar he was left behind. Then he found this magic, elcheapo guitar and a snake skin jacket with lots and lots of pockets and Bob's your uncle.

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: jonm
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:57 AM

The reference to DVD was my mistake, Joybell. GUEST above has quoted the frames/second difference as being between movie and TV, which is carried into DVD by default. This suggests that you can only confirm pitch in the cinema!

If TV is 5% faster, A440 would become 462Hz, which is a little above Bb, I think. Doesn't explain the Ab to E difference but could account for the "neighbourhood of B."

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 04:24 AM

Yes I suspect they aren't using the joke now anyway. Modern movies are made with the knowledge that musicians can easily check keys at home while watching DVD or Video. The old movies, shown in theatres, gave makers the chance to insert little in jokes with less chance of being detected. That's how I see it anyway. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:01 PM

So Mudcatters, I see, can be authorities on keys, pitch and strum. Are there any music historians who get annoyed (like me) with musical anachronisms? There are Plenty!

Scruggs stlye banjo to accompany Civil War films sounds to me like Jimmy Hendricks backing up a DooWop band.

The worst is when Sonny Terry & Brownie McGee play in the background of Scorcese's Gangs of New York. Missed the mark only about 100 years.

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:24 PM

In "The Piano"--Holly Hunter playing new age music in 19th century New Zeeland--

And then, there was an old episode of Dennis the Menace, where Mr. Wilson had a "Bird Watchers"meeting to listen to recordings of birds , and some wigged out, flipped out, beatnik jazz fans thought it meant "Bird"--and were snapping their fingers and saying, "Man, this is the "Most"!" and such things to recordings of Dixieland music.

Two years ago, I went to an musical theatre workshop performance of a show about the underground railroad--the music sounded more like Andrew Lloyd Webber than anything else--

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:51 PM

Those examples are the result of movie/series makers who just don't care about authenticity. Yes! it drives us crazy too. That's why it's the rather playful little "jokes" that I'm more interested in.

As an example of how silly it all becomes - a friend of ours played an extra in the latest film about Ned Kelly. The cast were told they were to shave off their beards because facial hair was unfashionable. Ned Kelly without his lush beard!!! At the last moment it was decided that the cast could maybe have very close-cropped beards and that's how it was done. It's no wonder authenticity in regard to the music is thought to be unimportant.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs in movies. Wrong key joke?
From: thespionage
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 12:54 PM

Another word on Kermit. I understand that he would be playing tenor banjo (although I know that left-handed five-strings exist), but why a tenor that sounds like a six-string? I also saw a commercial advertising the release of all of the Muppet Movies on special edition DVD in which Kermit was playing righty!

Russ