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An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?

DigiTrad:
BELLS OF RHYMNEY
ORANGES AND LEMONS
ORANGES AND LEMONS 2


Related threads:
Origins: Oranges and Lemons (say the bells of...) (53)
(origins) Origins: Ben Backstay and Oranges and Lemons? (8)
Oranges & Lemons. mtn dulcimer (2)


GUEST,Joe_F 29 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM
GUEST 30 Nov 05 - 05:00 AM
Bunnahabhain 30 Nov 05 - 08:14 AM
Les from Hull 30 Nov 05 - 05:11 PM
Liz the Squeak 01 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM
gnomad 01 Dec 05 - 05:28 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Dec 05 - 05:46 AM
Bunnahabhain 01 Dec 05 - 06:37 AM
Mr Red 01 Dec 05 - 08:15 AM
The Walrus 01 Dec 05 - 09:07 AM
Georgiansilver 01 Dec 05 - 09:21 AM
Bunnahabhain 01 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Joe_F 01 Dec 05 - 09:46 PM
dick greenhaus 01 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM
The Walrus 02 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Joe_F 02 Dec 05 - 09:27 PM
Bunnahabhain 03 Dec 05 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Dec 05 - 08:24 AM
Jim Dixon 03 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM
The Walrus 03 Dec 05 - 09:28 AM
GUEST 06 Jun 06 - 01:33 AM
Dave Hanson 06 Jun 06 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 06 - 06:55 AM
Geoff the Duck 06 Jun 06 - 07:50 AM
Splott Man 06 Jun 06 - 08:54 AM
Barry Finn 06 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM
Snuffy 06 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM
Bunnahabhain 06 Jun 06 - 03:52 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM
Mo the caller 06 Jun 06 - 06:30 PM
Barry Finn 06 Jun 06 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Joe_F 06 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM
Snuffy 07 Jun 06 - 08:34 AM
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Subject: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM

George Orwell, in his deathbed diary, wrote:

You're mother's a spinster, say the bells of the Westminster.

Don't keep talking balls, say the bells of St Paul's.

Somehow, these verses did not make it into _1984_, but the idea of churches insulting each other seems worth pursuing. For instance:

Your uncles are fairies, say the bells of St Mary's.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: A 5-inch melon is twice as big as a 4-inch melon. :||


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:00 AM

Call yourselves men
Say the bells of Big Ben.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:14 AM

If we're doing this with the verses, what about the end?

BTW a useful list. The churches of the City of London
It's not my fault some are too long to use...

1: All Hallows Barking
2: All Hallows London Wall
3: All Hallows Staining
4: Christ Church Newgate
5: St Alban Wood Street
6: St Alphage London Wall
7: St Andrew Holborn
8: St Andrew Undershaft
9: St Andrew by the Wardrobe
10: St Anne and St Agnes
11: St Augustine Watling Street
12: St Bartholomew the Great
13: St Bartholomew the Less
14: St Benet Paul's Wharf
15: St Botolph Aldersgate
16: St Botolph Aldgate
17: St Botolph Bishopsgate
18: St Bride
19: St Clement Eastcheap
20: St Dunstan in the East
21: St Dunstan in the West
22: St Edmund the King
23: St Ethelburga
24: St Ethelreda Ely
25: St Giles Cripplegate
26: St Helen Bishopsgate
27: St James Garlickhithe
28: St John's Chapel
29: St Katharine Cree
30: St Lawrence Jewry         
31: St Magnus the Martyr
32: St Margaret Lothbury
33: St Margaret Pattens
34: St Martin Ludgate
35: St Martin Orgar
36: St Mary Abchurch
37: St Mary Aldermary
38: St Mary le Bow
39: St Mary at Hill
40: St Mary Somerset
41: St Mary Woolnoth
42: St Michael Cornhill
43: St Michael Paternoster Royal
44: St Nicholas Cole Abbey
45: St Olave Hart Street
46: St Olave Jewry
47: St Peter ad Vincula
48: St Peter upon Cornhill
49: St Sepulchre
50: St Stephen Wallbrook
51: St Vedast alias Foster
52: Temple Church
53: St Mary Moorfields (R.C.)
54: City Temple
55: Dutch Church
56: Jewin Welsh Church
57: Spanish and Portuguese
       Synagogue


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:11 PM

The scansion'll spoil
Say the bells of St Michael Paternoster Royal


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

Your bum is all flabby says
St Nicholas Cole Abbey.

(Incidentaly, I'm singing in a concert in St Giles Cripplegate on Dec 10th.....)

LTS


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 05:28 AM

No additions to offer, but thank you for introducing me to a word and a concept which were both new to me. Dictionary.com offers the following :

"Flytting

Flitting \Flitt"ing\, Flytting \Flytt"ing\, n. Contention; strife; scolding; specif., a kind of metrical contest between two persons, popular in Scotland in the 16th century. [Obs. or Scot.]

These ``flytings'' consisted of alternate torrents of sheer Billingsgate poured upon each other by the combatants. --Saintsbury."

Guest JoeF's use of the term suggests it may still be current somewhere in the world, examples, anyone?


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 05:46 AM

Any political thread on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 06:37 AM

You look like a dwarf,
Says St Benet Paul's Wharf,



Call yourselves men
Say the bells of Big Ben.



We're mainly women,
Cry the church-bells all ringing,


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:15 AM

||: A 5-inch melon is twice as big as a 4-inch melon. :||

Joe - call me a pedant but you have been short-changed by 3 cents on the dollar there PAL.

come let me feelya
say the bells of St Celia

How did that occur?
Said the bells of St Cyr

my local parish church is St Cyr's, now anyone got a rhyme for St Sepulcher ( - Northampton since you ask)


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: The Walrus
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:07 AM

To add to the list

"You stupid fart!"
Called the Lesser Saint Bart.

"You stink like a brewery"
Cried out St Olave Jewry

"Your arse is too wide"
Rang the bells of St Bride.


gnomad,

"...Guest JoeF's use of the term suggests it may still be current somewhere in the world, examples, anyone? ..."

I am led to believe that flyting is still common amongst young urban African-Americans.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:21 AM

Is Mudcat best? says St Dunstan in the West.
"I really don't know" says St Mary le Bow
"A bit 'touchy feely" says St Ethelreda Ely.
"I find it paining" says All Hallows Staining.
"I've had my fill" says St Michael Cornhill.
"Their knowledge is wide" says the Church at St Bride.
"Well I think their great" says St Botolph Aldgate.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM

How some of these names aren't made up, I don't know. St Andrews by the wardrobe?










I'll get my coat


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:46 PM

Walrus: The custom indeed exists among US blacks, but among them, AFAIK, it is called "the dozens". Among Caltech undergraduates in the 1950s it was called "shitgiving". Among northern Eskimos it used to be a serious form of dueling, used to settle quarrels without mayhem. The contestants took turns insulting each other to the beat of a drum, and a winner was declared (IIRC) by the spectators.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: Failure of imagination is a weak form of courage and a strong form of cowardice. :||


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM

Hamish Henderson, IMO, gave the word "flyting" new linguistic life in his "the Flyting o' Life and Daith"


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: The Walrus
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

Guest Joe F,

The custom of duelling with insults also existed in India at the turn of the 20th Century. Frank Richardson (of the 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers) records an incident* involving one of his comrades (known as "the prayer wallah") and an Indian trader. Apparently, the British soldiers knew it (or at least the language) as the "crab bat".

W

* In "Old Soldier Sahib" - his account of his time as a private in India before the Great War.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM

A while ago I saw a documentary series on music in South America. I seem to remember one section involved such a singing practice, but can't remember the details. I do remember that the younger people weren't as good as the old folks as the art was dying out.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:27 PM

The OED says of "fliting, flyting" "Now dial.", but it has a quotation from the _Listener_ dated 1968 that gives it the air of a standard literary term.

"Your ma has four feet," says St Alban Wood Street.

"Your pa has a horn," says St Andrew Holborn.

"Put your arse in a sling," says St Edmund the King.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: When there's no news in the truth, there's no truth in the news. :||


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 07:08 AM

Mr Red,

Assuming there's a St Sepulchers in Glasgow,


Go fuck the 'gers,
say the bells of St Sepulchers!


religious bigotry and football- an almost sucessful substitute for all out war for a century!


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 08:24 AM

Dan Brown is a gobshite
Temple Church bells say all night...

(Go figure it out yourselves!)

Joe's maths is pretty good btw a 5" melon is almost twice as big as a 4" one. You can figure that one out yourselves as well.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM

Get off my doorstep, you cur!
Say the bells of St. Sepulcher.

You'd make a good target,
Say the bells of St. Margaret.

You're bound for the gallows
Say the bells of All Hallows.

You ain't worth two farts
Say the bells of St. Bart's.

I can smell you for miles,
Say the bells of St. Giles.

You're sick and you drool,
Says the shofar at shul.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: The Walrus
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 09:28 AM

IIRC St. Sepulcher was the church nearest Newgate (or the one that tolled for the condemned of Newgate)

"I ring sinners to Hell"
Says St. Sepulcher's bell.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:33 AM

'Oranges and Lemons' is a well-known English Nursery Rhyme.
Of unknown origin, it is possible that the children of London made up the words to fit the rhythm of the ringing bells. There was a Square Dance for eight called 'Oranges and Lemons' dating back to 1665.

'Gay go up and gay go down …London Town'.
These two lines were the introduction to an early version of the nursery rhyme and meant something like 'Go joyfully about your business, but pay attention to the different messages being communicated by the bells of London.'. It seems to have been the form commonly used in the nineteenth century.
The dropping of the lines took place well before the emergence of the now universally accepted homosexual meaning of 'gay'.

Oranges and lemons say the bells of St Clements
St Clements, stands in St Clements Lane, Eastcheap, ia small church, only 64 by 40 feet, There has been a church on the site since the 11th Century. When the River Thames was wider than it is today, the wharf where the citrus fruit cargoes from the Mediterranean were delivered lay just across the street. It is said the church bells pealed when a cargo arrived.

Bull's eyes and targets say the bells of St. Marg'ret's
St. Margarets was founded in 1197, burned down in 1440, then rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren.
The "Bullseyes and Targets" refer to archery which was practised in the nearby fields. In 1363 King Edward III had commanded the obligatory practice of archery on Sundays and holidays. This tradition continued, thus ensuring the safety of the Realm, until Bows were replaced with guns.

Maids in white aprons Say the bells at St Catherine's
The site of St Katherine Cree dates back to 1108 when it was served by the Augustan Priory of Holy Trinity (Christ Church). St Katherine Cree is located near Leadenhall market. The market was so called as it was located, in the 14th century, around a great house which boasted a lead roof. "Maids in white aprons" refers to the costume of the women of the early 1600's who sold the wares which included meat, game, poultry and fish.

Kettles and pans say the bells of St. Anne's
The original church of St Anne's and St Agnes was devastated during the Great Fire of London in 1666, then rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren. The "Kettles and Pans" refer to the utensils sold by the coppersmiths who worked nearby.

Pokers and tongs say the bells of St. John's
The Chapel of St John is the oldest church in London and situated in the Tower of London built in 1077 by William the Conqueror. The Tower of London was used as a prison for many years and the "Pokers and Tongs" refer to the instruments of torture which were used there!

Brickbats and tiles say the bells of St. Giles'
In 1090 a Norman church stood on this site but was rebuilt in 1394 during the reign of King Richard II. The church was badly burnt in the Cripplegate Fire of 1897 and was hit by a bomb during World War II. The "Brickbats and Tiles" refers to the bricks and tiles used by nearby builders

Pancakes and fritters say the bells of St. Peter's
St Peter upon Cornhill stands on one of the most historic Christian sites in London. The Corn Market was situated there and dated back to Roman times. The reference to "Pancakes and Fritters" alludes to the wares which were sold to the local workers - the 'fast food' of old London!

Two sticks and an apple say the bells at Whitechapel
The bells of Whitechapel refer to the Whitechapel Bell Foundry, established in 1570 and famous for making the Liberty Bell which was shipped to America in 1752 and for making the 'Clock Bells' of St Paul's cathedral in 1709. 'Big Ben' is the most famous bell ever cast at Whitechapel. The origins of "Two Sticks and an Apple" could be a connection to the foundry hand bells - similar in shape to toffee apples. Also, transportation of bells to other parts of London drew great crowds and the atmosphere was similar to that of a fair where toffee apples were traditionally eaten

Old Father Baldpate say the slow bells at Aldgate
The bells of Aldgate refer principally to the Aldgate Bell foundry. In 1588 the Aldgate Foundry recast one of the bells of the Church of St. Botolph's in Aldgate. The reference to "Old Father Bald Pate" relates to Saint Botolph, a pious Saxon Abbot who had built a monastery in 654AD, baldpate being a colloquialism used to describe a bald-headed person.

You owe me five farthings say the bells of St Martins
St Martin Ongar church was destroyed in the Great Fire of London. Only the bell tower, complete with the original bell, has survived in the rectory of St Clements. This is in Martin Lane, a street that was once notorious for moneylenders.

When will you pay me? say the bells at Old Bailey
St Edmund-without-Newgate, a Saxon church was dedicated to St Edmund the Martyr. It was badly damaged in the Great Fire and was rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren. At the time of the Crusades, the church became known as 'St Edmund and the Holy Sepulchre', and eventually became 'St Sepulchre'. The bells of St. Sepulchre-without-Newgate church rang on execution mornings for Newgate prison; the church still has the 'Execution Bell' in a glass case. London's Criminal Court was right next to Newgate Prison & called the 'Old Bailey' after the street in which it was located. The phrase "When will you pay me?" refers to the debtors housed in Newgate Prison and those tried at the Old Bailey.

When I grow rich say the bells of Shoreditch
St Leonard's church, on Kingsland Road, Shoreditch, was founded in the 12th Century. The village whipping post and stocks are still in the churchyard. The area was known for its great poverty. The hopeful phrase "When I grow rich" must have been echoed by many of the inhabitants of Shoreditch.

Pray, when will that be? say the bells of Stepney
St Dunstan's Church is located on Stepney High Street. St Dunstan's has a long traditional link with the sea and it was once known as the 'Church of the High Seas'. The phrase "When will that be?" could refer to wives waiting for sailors to return from voyages with their fortunes, when their 'boat came in'. This was particularly relevant during the 16th and 17th centuries when many sailors were employed on Voyages of Discovery to the New Worlds - their wives would have to wait for their return to receive any wages, but they never knew how long the voyages might be - a two year wait was not uncommon!

I'm sure I don't know says the great bell at Bow
St Mary-le-Bow, in Cheapside, is also known as Bow Church. During the 14th Century a curfew was rung on the Bow Bells every night at 9pm; probably the origin of the tradition that anyone born within hearing distance of Bow Bells ringing is a true Cockney.Destroyed during the Great Fire, the church was rebuilt by Sir Christopher Wren, and has bow arches.

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

Chop chop chop chop the last man's dead!
The executions at Newgate prison, for many years were done by means of beheading. The unfortunate victim would await execution on 'Death Row' and was informed by the warder, the night before the execution ' here comes the candle to light you to bed' of their imminent fate.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:29 AM

Above guest, you ought to know, nobody reads posts longer than one screen.

eric


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:55 AM

Except me then.
Thanks Guest.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:50 AM

Your posting's too long
All the bells say "Ding Dong"

Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:54 AM

You're just a cheap repulchre
say the bells of St Sepulchre


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM

I find this thread a most interesting read. I was born & bread in Boston(US) loads of churchs around me(seldom went inside after grammer school though). Never knew why Pete Seeger was singing about
church belles, now I know. I also am wondering if this is common to just the English or is bell speaking (or whatever it's called) common elsewhere. As far as I know I've never heard about it being done in the US?
Thanks
Barry


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM

What a load of balls
Say the Bells of St Paul's


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:52 PM

Barry, you might want to know where we started from....

Gay go up and gay go down,
To ring the bells of London Town.

Oranges and lemons
Say the bells of St. Clements
I'll give you five farthings
Say the bells of St. Martin's
When will you pay me
Say the bells of Old Bailey
When I grow rich
Say the bells of Shoreditch
When will that be
Say the bells of Stepney
I do not know
Says the great bell of Bow.

The first two lines are traditional, but often ommited now. They were once well known. See, for example, Kiplings poem, The Bells and Queen Victoria.

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/bells_and_queen.html


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM

I also read the whole of Guest's posts. Posts longer than one screen should be read if they say something worth saying. And that can usually be gauged in the first few lines.

I did like:
Oranges and lemons say the bells of St Clements
St Clements, stands in St Clements Lane, Eastcheap, ia small church, only 64 by 40 feet, There has been a church on the site since the 11th Century. When the River Thames was wider than it is today, the wharf where the citrus fruit cargoes from the Mediterranean were delivered lay just across the street. It is said the church bells
pealed when a cargo arrived.


Was that an accidental pun(net)?

CHEERS
Nigel


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:30 PM

It's threads with more than 50 posts that no-one reads, except someone must keep adding to them


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:35 PM

Thanks Barri
Barry


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

Snuffy: Orwell beat you to that one -- see the beginning of the thread.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: Every number is very small: almost all other numbers are very much larger. :||


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Subject: RE: An 'Oranges & Lemons' flyting?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:34 AM

I had thought that our guest had found that load of twaddle and wishful thinking on some filk/New Age/Celtic/Pagan site, but it would seem that it has been around for a bit longer if Orwell was railing against it. The perpetrator should be put up against the railings.

Did you know that after the Plague wiped out lots of Londoners in 1665, the Great Fire in 1666 melted all the church bells. So the few survivors had to ring their roses instead, and this gave rise to another famous nursery rhyme. :-)


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