Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 04:41 PM

Singing black as any Moor is one thing. Parading around the shire 24/7 in sootface and sweep's garb whilst singing gen-U-wine history lessons will earn a much deserved side eye from anyone in the business no matter how "good" the act might seem to outsiders.

Most audiences never heard of her. She's impossible to remember or forget. That's pop music. The earlier singer-songwriter era is mostly niche folk with an audience share to match. Illuminations's artsy-jazz fans are very, very, very few and far between these days... and getting fewer every passing year.

One must be more than a bit of a pop culture nerd to connect Up Where We Belong to the Native American movement. It's a show tune and stands on its own in that genre. Nobody will be taking their little gold movie music statuettes back.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 01:28 PM

She wrote and performed some great songs, no question. I do not think she should be forgotten or written out of history; I just have no problem with certain of her accolades being rescinded.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 12:42 PM

no,I agree that is morally unethical
But the song will last [possibly]
her behaviour indicates that looking after number one was her primary consideration.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 12:01 PM

And they accepted benefits intended for the oppressed too, right?

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 04:55 AM

lets face it The Singing Postman was born in Bury, Lancashire, not Sheringham. Norfolk but he still wrote some good songs.
And Ewan MacColl born in Lancashire., another fine songwriter and performer

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 04:38 AM

Best to judge her on her musical creativity.imo

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 25 - 03:46 AM

Watch out she may come and haunt you, and sing universal soldier all night long

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 07 Mar 25 - 07:56 PM

It matters to some people that she accepted benefits that were intended for an historically-oppressed people, of which she was/is not one.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 07 Mar 25 - 07:41 PM

Simply put: Buffy St. Marie's art can't be popular (or unique) enough to make her parents Native Americans and, of course, that matters to them that judge & vote by ancestry. It's genetics, not consumer preferences.

That said, that political side of the awards aisle is hardly BS free now that Buffy St. Marie is Photoshopped out of their old pictures.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 25 - 01:07 PM

Firstly every person is unique.
Universal soldier is a good song.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 03:00 PM

There'll be a load of compromisin'
On the road to my horizon
But I'm gonna be where the lights
Are shinning on me.

I haven't heard anything about taking anybody's music awards back. Doubt we ever will.

Woody Guthrie's autobiography is more fiction than fact & Geronimo never drove a Cadillac. The Beverly Hillbillies are nobody's window on Appalachia. Start over with your pop culture educations... if you care.

Does not matter either way to the currently offended parties. Altogether different genre of statuette. Vetting sure needs improvement. This one had more red flags than a Beijing parade.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 01:55 PM

What does any of that have to do with Buffy taking benefits that should have gone to actual Indigenous people?

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 12:21 PM

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Canadian+blackface&t=h_&iar=videos&iax=videos&ia=videos

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 12:11 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about. What "what-about-ism" - did I miss some news report? Please enlighten me.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 11:56 AM

A ridiculed politician resorting to what-about-ism is beyond you scope? I'm surprised.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 10:56 AM

"Sloppy Trudeau politics" - what???? What on earth do "Trudeau politics" - whatever that's supposed to mean - "sloppy" or otherwise - have to do with a pretendian taking benefits meant for an oppressed, suffering people?

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 10:40 AM

Haven't you ever seen someone adopted into a family, say a Dutch family, who developed a love for, say, sauerkraut? Do a search and see what Buffy's family has to say about Auntie Buffy.

I read on Reddit of someone's mother who moved all her signed Buffy Sainte-Marie posters from the living room to the bathroom. It's a really sad business on the reservation.

Sloppy Trudeau politics.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 09:44 AM

I agree, Rossey. This does not detract from her musical talent but her persona is mow marred. Not that that matters to anyone but me!

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 08:29 AM

There's a fundamental difference between embellishing your backstory, and creating a whole character - whose shtick since about 1960-61 has been based on being of an ethnic background. All the activities she took part in for being of indigenous/Indian extraction, all the awards that should have gone to actual real indigenous acts - it was all a charade. Though obviously she believed in the causes she was promoting.

if I ever watch 'Soldier Blue', the experience will never be the same hearing someone supposedly authentic, as a voice representing the Indian, who actually wasn't. It will still be a great song, but the awareness is now there.   

No-one can take away BSM'a huge cross over pop/folk songs... 'I'm Gonna Be A Country Girl Again', 'Until It's time for you to go', 'Up Where We Belong' 'Universal Soldier' etc. Great American songs, which deserve lifetime achievement awards galore. But the indigenous act awards she got are now soiled. Fine as an honorary representative, and some have claimed BSM, was 'adopted' into their tribal culture.. but it was a falsehood to claim her physical lineage as being from that source. Also there is something thoroughly sordid in threatening family members for exposing the truth of her background, instead of just coming clean about it.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 14 Feb 25 - 05:04 AM

I seem to remember Bob Dylan peddling himself a completely fictitious back story, but no one seems to be bothered about that these days. Both artistes have given us some great songs over the years - I wish I had written Until It’s Time for You To Go, The Universal Soldier, Now that the Buffalo’s Gone, etc.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 11:50 AM

Like Grey Owl, she has been consistent in her representation of herself. Passing - what a concept.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 11:13 AM

Well, that bit is pretty murky - it was certainly not a public accusation, so she does not owe the public any "proof", and the account of the private accusation and its purpose is, I believe, second-hand; I make it a policy to withhold judgement on that sort of thing if I don't have direct or very compelling evidence.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 08:29 AM

I agree with all the points about her reasons and her music but the act of accusing her brother of abuse to shut him up is still wrong unless she follows it though with some proof

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 08:24 AM

Not in the linked threads: Buffy Sainte-Marie - blacklisting??

New consequences, old news. Making a career of stealing heritage to prove stealing heritage is wrong; is a career's worth of wrongs. Typical for politics and/or pop music.

Pretendian

Folks used to just call it “redface.” That one has its own wiki these days.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GerryM
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 03:56 AM

On the one hand, she accepted rewards to which others were entitled.
On the other hand, she did much to bring the plight of Native Americans to the attention of the rest of us.
Which weighs heavier in the scales?

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 08:03 PM

To recap: it's MORE than just someone who isn't really what they claim: it's that she used her claim to essentially rob artists from an historically oppressed population of what should have been theirs.

From Wiki:

American Indian College Fund's Lifetime Achievement Award        1998

Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards Lifetime Achievement Award        2008

Juno Award for Indigenous Music Album of the Year        2018

Indigenous Music Awards for Best Folk Album        2018

Issiqut Anguk, sister of singer Kelly Fraser who lost the 2018 Juno Award for Indigenous Music Album of the Year to her, wrote that Fraser "respected Buffy so much and it hurts to hear that maybe, just maybe it would've changed Kelly's life if she won the Juno award and Buffy didn't."


There's more of this kind of stuff in the Wiki article.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:40 PM

This kind of messy finger pointing and shaming has been going on for years in the field of American Indian literature. It's why a lot of scholars got out of the field, because so many folks (white EuroAmericans) pile on with righteous indignation. Studying the work, appreciating the artistry, is all for naught when people can point fingers and say someone isn't really what they claim. It never ends well.

Are you proud of yourselves for dragging down a very talented woman because the identity she chose to occupy doesn't line up with the official record? How many other celebrities have manufactured a back story, built an empire, but as long as they don't claim to be indigenous they can go on their way. Even those who have committed crimes. Something is really wrong here.

And I agree with a recent critic of the progressive aspects of the Democratic Party - I'll have to think for a while to remember who it was - but they pointed out that the spate of recent public acknowledgements that institutions are sitting on land that was once indigenous are meaningless. Lipservice, because there are no reparations, they don't intend to do anything about the colonization that led to where we are today. But by all means, jump all over a woman who has built a career acknowledging the contributions of indigenous people.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:24 PM

'I'm not one of the "gotcha" people' - In the context of this thread, I find that a very odd sentence.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:00 PM

Nonetheless, she has done wonderful music for fifty years.
I'm not one of the "gotcha" people. I just like her music.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 05:45 PM

Just this minute read this:

“Notice is hereby given that the appointment of Buffy Sainte-Marie to the Order of Canada was terminated by Ordinance signed by the Governor General on January 3, 2025.” The date of the announcement was February 8, 2025.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 01:32 PM

I wouldn't criticize Miss Sainte-Marie until you've walked a mile in her moccasins

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 10:56 AM

It's not just a "made up back story" or a "false history"; it's using that fantasy as a pretext for accepting awards and advantages that were established specifically for Indigenous people - to some degree, in order to rectify historical injustices - and thus depriving genuine indigenous persons of those awards and advantages that is unconscionable. This is not a small matter, and distinguishes Buffy's case from those of Grey Owl, Long Lance, and other such imposters that I've heard of. I'm not out to get Buffy; as I say, she's paying the price - but if the matter is to be discussed, it is important not to gloss over its most egregious aspects.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 10:29 AM

I liked her as an artist and could forgive the made up back story but for one thing. In the Wiki entry about her claim of indigenous identity it states that her brother, Alan, wrote some public letters to the press denying her claim. He received a letter from her solicitors telling him to stop. Direct quote from Wiki now -"Included with the law firm letter was a handwritten note from Buffy Sainte-Marie to her brother stating that she would expose him for allegedly sexually abusing her as a child if he continued speaking about her ancestry."

Had he abused her she should have taken the claim to the police but it seems to have been a spurious claim made just to prevent him from telling the truth. That is despicable at so many levels. Her subsequent, now disproven, stories about her being adopted prove her to be a liar of the highest order and I'm afraid that I cannot help but becoming less of a fan in these circumstances.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 09:38 AM

Many, many people, including artists, writers and musicians, have given a false history of themselves. Grey Owl, a writer and early conservationist, claimed to be a Native American. He was actually an Englishman called Archibald Stansfeld Belany (1888 - 1938). And the writer Patrick O'Brian (1914- 2008) invented a whole early life for himself. This didn't stop him from producing a series of outstanding naval novels.
Yes, BSM was wrong to accept awards that she was not entitled to. But that should not detract from her outstanding artistic ability.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 07:36 AM

In a strange piece of programming, Celtic Connections in Glasgow had Buffy on the same night and time as Tom Paxton, though obviously in different venues. I had a ticket for Tom’s concert, but then he was unable to come at the last minute, so I was offered a ticket swap to Buffy’s concert. It was very good indeed. I’m guessing this was about 15 years ago? She has since played Glasgow again in 2015.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 09 Feb 25 - 03:52 AM

BSM is a total fraud, but a great singer and songwriter.   She told lies about her origins, she told lies about abuse, threatened anyone who exposed the truth, and created a whole fake story for herself. Maybe she has a psychological syndrome where she now believes some of it, and can't face the reality of who she originally was. Anyway, the Cree stuff turned out to be totally false. For such things, she is both despicable but brilliant in a musical sense.. and also on the positive side did much good along with the harm and cultural misappropriation.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 09 Feb 25 - 12:21 AM

Not being Cree enough? More like, not being Cree at all - and accepting awards that were meant for actual Indigenous people.

I have nothing against Buffy; in fact, I've always admired her work. I don't hold it against her that she created a fake identity - but in accepting those awards and emoluments, she took it too far, and now she's paying the price.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Feb 25 - 09:04 PM

Canada just took an award away for not being Cree enough...

One story...

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:53 PM

Hey this thread being reopened has cheered me somewhat... especially the positive comments that have issued forth... "God is Alive... Magic is Afoot!!!!!"
God is Alive... Magic is Afoot..... the song.. wonderful

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 02:28 PM

Electrifying performer (that voice!), and writer of many songs that will outlive her ~ some of the most visceral protest-songs ever, but quite a few others not "political" at all.

I can understand (just barely) that some folks might not "get it," but I was truly puzzled by the couple of "guests" posting negative comments.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Tamarack Jack
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

Thanks Buffy for so much,,looking forward to seeing you in Mtl .Oct

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 11:58 AM

Buffy is a truely magnifient singer and songwriter.I'd like to mention 'The Big Ones Get Away '...not only is it a great song and recording it is also an astute commentary on the gangster nature of capitalism. All that in a 4 minute song!
ifor

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: banjoman
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:36 AM

One of my all time favourites although I only saw her live once when she gave a great demonstration of how to play the mouth bow.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

Buffy is a treasure. A uniue vocal style that doesn't sound contrived, and back catalogue of some great songs. There is no hope for anyone who doesn't recognise Buffy as a great talent.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: cetmst
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 08:56 AM

Buffy Sainte-Marie's first tour in several years brought her to the Stone Mountain Arts Center in Brownfield, Maine last night and we were fortunate to get tickets to a sold-out performance. She brought a seven piece band and they gave a high energy concert including some songs from her newest album. These and her asides seemed to reflect continued interest in peace, social justice and Native American affairs and I confess that I enjoyed more her guitar, keyboard and mouth bow accompanied renditions of her older material. These included Universal Soldier, Piney Wood Hills, Until It's Time for You to Go, Soldier Blue, Little Wheel Spin and Spin, Up Where We Belong and others. I asked her after the performance if she still did My Country Tis of Thy People You're Dying and she said she would when she got out west where people would understand it.

A word about Stone Mountain Arts Center - it's in a converted barn, on a dirt road, no less, in western Maine but attracts an impressive list of national and international performers and audiences from Maine, New Hampshire and Massachusetts and seasonally, summer people from all over. The web site is www.stonemountainartscenter.com. Last night's dinner menu included lasagna, pizza, chili, salmon chowder , salads and magnificent desserts. Last night's audience was somewhat younger than us (who isn't?) but the staff was extremely friendly and accomodating. - Charles

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:14 AM

To all critics of Buffy:- Why waste time on a thread which you have obviously no interest in....just come in to cause trouble?.
As a Brit who enjoyed much Folk music in the era....I don't claim to be a critic...but Buffy stood out for me...especially the Soldier Blue song....her voice and the feeling she put into it hit me in the guts! I enjoy her music still...so critics...water off a ducks back.....go somewhere else and cause your childish mayhem...or get a 'Mudcat identity' and become known as someone we can respect or reject!
Best wishes all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:09 AM

If I make a contentious posting, it has my name on it.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:45 PM

HELLO???? Carla????

Where is, who is, Carla?

Probably gargoyle, or alan or eric - trying to stir the pot-o-shit.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:41 PM

Probably her claim to "fame" "flame" "infamane" is contained in the above J.R. posting, by the time she came on the concert had run so late that we were tripping

Peyote? Mequeitt? Yage? Paraquat laced shag? LSD? (No XTC yet, or all would feel the love.)

Yes, you should, MUST be tripping to count her anywhere near the top 100 folk of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: danensis
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 04:16 PM

I happen to have the programme here for the Tupholme Manor Park Concert on 24th July 1971 and the headline acts seem to be James Taylor and Tom Paxton, though Buffy Sainte-Marie does get the first wrote-up in the programme. Swarbrick and Carthy finished the concert.

Roy Hollingworth and Andrew Means, writing in "Melody Maker" said:
[Begin quote]
Its four years since Buffy Sainte-Narie played in Britain but from her reception one could have imagined her to be a countrywide favourite. As her annoucner tolled off the details of her four year absence, someone volunteered "We missed you". It set the mood of her performance - the emotional greeting of old friends "Say 'I love you'" Buffy instructed the obedient crowd. Further instructions did not arouse the same willing execution . In any case her impact was at its greatest when she was singing rather than influencing the relationships of the gathering. Opening on the familiar note of "Universal Soldier" she progressedinto an expolitation of the vibrating earnestness her voice contains. She is an able representative of her people, the Red Indians, and few can put their case as a downtrodden nation better, as in her film theme "Soldier Blue". [End quote]

I'm sorry to say that by the time she came on the concert had run so late that we were tripping through a muddy field trying to find our way back to the bus for Lincoln, so we could miss our train back home and spend the night in the bus station, waiting for the first bus of the morning.