Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist

Subject: Buffy Saint-Marie
From: GUEST,Carla E.
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:07 AM

Can someone offer insight on what type of success Buffy had in the 60's. Was she compared to Joan Baez and Judy Collins? Did she have radio hits and lots of publicity? Btw, I think she's a creative songwriter with a unique voice. I love her album "Many A Mile" and others.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:32 AM

She was 'hot' for a while after her hit "Soldier Blue" when the movie of the same name was a box office success (was that 69?) She was well-respected before and after that although I don't think she never had the profile of either Baez or Collins. She still has a faithful following in Canada.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:43 AM

I don't know as much about her as I should, but our Canadian friends will soon put us right. I recall "Soldier Blue" being a hit in the early seventies. The film was important too, because it was first inkling for many people that there was something wrong with Hollywood's portrayal of Indians/Native Americans. I believe Bufy St.Marie is, at least partly Indian by descent.
I don't think she was ever seen as a "star" in the way that Joni Mitchell became one. She certainly had some success as a songwriter though. "Until It's Time For You To Go" was a hit for Elvis Presley and her brilliant, sardonic, "Universal Soldier", (associated with Donovan by a lot of peopple), was one of the defining statements of the folk/protest song movement.
You will certainly find out more about her if you do a Google search. There are many Mudcatters who have forgotten more than I ever knew about her and I am confident that they will soon turn up here to enlighten you further and correct my errors!

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:46 AM

Buffy Saint-Marie.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:54 AM

Buffy is one of a few singers who's voice can make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Full blood Cree by the way

eric

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:38 AM

She is/was fabulous!! I saw her a couple of times in the UK in the 1970s. And of course, she was so different than Baez and Collins.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: cetmst
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:09 AM

My Buffy Ste.-Marie Song Book is today on a moving van somewhere between Maryland and New Hampshire, will review the contents when I can dig it out but two memorable songs about the condition of Native Americans are the powerfully bitter "My Country 'Tis of Thy People You're Dying" and the poignant "Now That the Buffalo's Gone."

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: open mike
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:20 AM

NOt only a brilliant musician, Buffy has done a lot to inspire native
people, especially youth to express themselves. Also an educator, she
has designed an award-winning curriculum to indroduce mathmatics to
lyoung people, especially First Nations students.
http://www.connectforkids.org/node/501
http://www.cradleboard.org/
http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/biography/fall98_buffy.htm
I love her Piney Wood Hills, which i often sing.
I think the VANGUARD RECORDS has recently re-released
a collection of her best tunes. as well as a newer c.d.
http://www.vanguardrecords.com/buffy/
http://www.creative-native.com/
http://www.sosu.edu/news/native-american-symposium-2005/

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM

alanabit, thanks for the link. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:48 PM

Little Hawk must be off duty, to let this thread go drifting by.

She certainly should have had status comparable with some of those others mentioned. I do recall that she topped the bill at a UK festival (Lincoln I think) in 1971 that included Paxton and James Taylor. She was of course mightily anti-Vietnam war, and I wondered whether the USA found this too much to take from an American Indian.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:15 PM

Although often mentioned along with Baez and Collins, Buffy never reached the same level of popularity. Her voice is not as classical as the two ladies, and that may be part of it. I think she was overtly more political than either of the other two ladies in her song writing. Baez certainly is political, but it is not as strongly in her music IMHO.

I still occasionally sing Buffy's song "Codeine". Surely written by someone who has been there. "My body is shaking, there's an achin' in my head. I feel like I'm dying and I wish I were dead. If I live 'til tomorrow, that'll be a long time. And I'll reel and I'll fall and I'll rise on codeine. And it's real, and it's reel, one more time."

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

Another link you may wish to read.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,A Critic of the Era
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:00 PM

Buffy Saint-Marie an OPORTUNIST with little talent, a mediocre voice, riding on the perfect crescent of a folk-revival movement combined with a minority-rights placement. By acknowledging placement as "an artist" within that American period it raised her above critical comment, but, it has unfortunately left her dawdry-drawers to flap on the clothes-line of time as someone who contributed little that will be recalled fifty more years from now.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM

End of the term is drawing near
Term papers are due in the folk-music schools
Looking for something, an instructor's heart-dear
The web is filled with lazy-assed fools.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM

She's a great songwriter, and has written a few songs that people will always want to play and hear. Incuding a couple that were big hits among people who knew not a bit about folk music-- her own version of "Up Where We Belong" , if you never paid much attention to the Joe Cocker/Jennifer Warnes version, you'll be amazed at what a great song it really is--

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: mg
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:19 AM

I think she ahs an awesome talent and an awesome voice. And is she not Canadian rather than usa american? Although some do not recognize those borders. I think she was on Sesame Street for a while..perhaps in Canada. mg

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:25 AM

Yes mg, I believe she was born on the Piapot Reservation in Saskatchewan and now resides in Hawaii. She was recently interviewed on the CBC here regarding her computer generated art and was one of the early ones to really use the computer to record music.

While I admire her music writing abilities, as far as her singing goes, I find her vibratto irritating after awhile.

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:32 AM

Silly guest, critic of the era, you can say many things about Buffy but you can't call her voice mediocre, thats like saying Earl Scruggs was a poor banjo player.

eric

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:51 AM

I love listening to her. My personal favourite is Piney wood hills.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Critic of 'a critic of the era'
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM

And what are YOUR credentials?

Subject: RE: Buffy Saint-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Steve-o
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM

Well, we don't need astounding credentials to be ahead of our two "Guests"- one is a crappy poet and the other can't remember his own name. Go get a life, kids.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:48 PM

Sheesh!! Someone's not satisfied with the level of violence in the world as it is. Has to go around looking for fights to pick. Yucko.

Buffy Sainte-Marie is a storyteller, and a good one. Never achieved quite the pop-icon status of Baez or Collins or some of the others, but had/has a steady following who appreciate her unique voice(in several senses), and like a well-told story. Glad to hear she's still functioning.                Tw

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: danensis
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 04:16 PM

I happen to have the programme here for the Tupholme Manor Park Concert on 24th July 1971 and the headline acts seem to be James Taylor and Tom Paxton, though Buffy Sainte-Marie does get the first wrote-up in the programme. Swarbrick and Carthy finished the concert.

Roy Hollingworth and Andrew Means, writing in "Melody Maker" said:
[Begin quote]
Its four years since Buffy Sainte-Narie played in Britain but from her reception one could have imagined her to be a countrywide favourite. As her annoucner tolled off the details of her four year absence, someone volunteered "We missed you". It set the mood of her performance - the emotional greeting of old friends "Say 'I love you'" Buffy instructed the obedient crowd. Further instructions did not arouse the same willing execution . In any case her impact was at its greatest when she was singing rather than influencing the relationships of the gathering. Opening on the familiar note of "Universal Soldier" she progressedinto an expolitation of the vibrating earnestness her voice contains. She is an able representative of her people, the Red Indians, and few can put their case as a downtrodden nation better, as in her film theme "Soldier Blue". [End quote]

I'm sorry to say that by the time she came on the concert had run so late that we were tripping through a muddy field trying to find our way back to the bus for Lincoln, so we could miss our train back home and spend the night in the bus station, waiting for the first bus of the morning.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:41 PM

Probably her claim to "fame" "flame" "infamane" is contained in the above J.R. posting, by the time she came on the concert had run so late that we were tripping

Peyote? Mequeitt? Yage? Paraquat laced shag? LSD? (No XTC yet, or all would feel the love.)

Yes, you should, MUST be tripping to count her anywhere near the top 100 folk of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:45 PM

HELLO???? Carla????

Where is, who is, Carla?

Probably gargoyle, or alan or eric - trying to stir the pot-o-shit.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:09 AM

If I make a contentious posting, it has my name on it.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:14 AM

To all critics of Buffy:- Why waste time on a thread which you have obviously no interest in....just come in to cause trouble?.
As a Brit who enjoyed much Folk music in the era....I don't claim to be a critic...but Buffy stood out for me...especially the Soldier Blue song....her voice and the feeling she put into it hit me in the guts! I enjoy her music still...so critics...water off a ducks back.....go somewhere else and cause your childish mayhem...or get a 'Mudcat identity' and become known as someone we can respect or reject!
Best wishes all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: cetmst
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 08:56 AM

Buffy Sainte-Marie's first tour in several years brought her to the Stone Mountain Arts Center in Brownfield, Maine last night and we were fortunate to get tickets to a sold-out performance. She brought a seven piece band and they gave a high energy concert including some songs from her newest album. These and her asides seemed to reflect continued interest in peace, social justice and Native American affairs and I confess that I enjoyed more her guitar, keyboard and mouth bow accompanied renditions of her older material. These included Universal Soldier, Piney Wood Hills, Until It's Time for You to Go, Soldier Blue, Little Wheel Spin and Spin, Up Where We Belong and others. I asked her after the performance if she still did My Country Tis of Thy People You're Dying and she said she would when she got out west where people would understand it.

A word about Stone Mountain Arts Center - it's in a converted barn, on a dirt road, no less, in western Maine but attracts an impressive list of national and international performers and audiences from Maine, New Hampshire and Massachusetts and seasonally, summer people from all over. The web site is www.stonemountainartscenter.com. Last night's dinner menu included lasagna, pizza, chili, salmon chowder , salads and magnificent desserts. Last night's audience was somewhat younger than us (who isn't?) but the staff was extremely friendly and accomodating. - Charles

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

Buffy is a treasure. A uniue vocal style that doesn't sound contrived, and back catalogue of some great songs. There is no hope for anyone who doesn't recognise Buffy as a great talent.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: banjoman
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:36 AM

One of my all time favourites although I only saw her live once when she gave a great demonstration of how to play the mouth bow.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 11:58 AM

Buffy is a truely magnifient singer and songwriter.I'd like to mention 'The Big Ones Get Away '...not only is it a great song and recording it is also an astute commentary on the gangster nature of capitalism. All that in a 4 minute song!
ifor

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Tamarack Jack
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

Thanks Buffy for so much,,looking forward to seeing you in Mtl .Oct

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 02:28 PM

Electrifying performer (that voice!), and writer of many songs that will outlive her ~ some of the most visceral protest-songs ever, but quite a few others not "political" at all.

I can understand (just barely) that some folks might not "get it," but I was truly puzzled by the couple of "guests" posting negative comments.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 03:53 PM

Hey this thread being reopened has cheered me somewhat... especially the positive comments that have issued forth... "God is Alive... Magic is Afoot!!!!!"
God is Alive... Magic is Afoot..... the song.. wonderful

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Feb 25 - 09:04 PM

Canada just took an award away for not being Cree enough...

One story...

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 09 Feb 25 - 12:21 AM

Not being Cree enough? More like, not being Cree at all - and accepting awards that were meant for actual Indigenous people.

I have nothing against Buffy; in fact, I've always admired her work. I don't hold it against her that she created a fake identity - but in accepting those awards and emoluments, she took it too far, and now she's paying the price.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 09 Feb 25 - 03:52 AM

BSM is a total fraud, but a great singer and songwriter.   She told lies about her origins, she told lies about abuse, threatened anyone who exposed the truth, and created a whole fake story for herself. Maybe she has a psychological syndrome where she now believes some of it, and can't face the reality of who she originally was. Anyway, the Cree stuff turned out to be totally false. For such things, she is both despicable but brilliant in a musical sense.. and also on the positive side did much good along with the harm and cultural misappropriation.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 07:36 AM

In a strange piece of programming, Celtic Connections in Glasgow had Buffy on the same night and time as Tom Paxton, though obviously in different venues. I had a ticket for Tom’s concert, but then he was unable to come at the last minute, so I was offered a ticket swap to Buffy’s concert. It was very good indeed. I’m guessing this was about 15 years ago? She has since played Glasgow again in 2015.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 09:38 AM

Many, many people, including artists, writers and musicians, have given a false history of themselves. Grey Owl, a writer and early conservationist, claimed to be a Native American. He was actually an Englishman called Archibald Stansfeld Belany (1888 - 1938). And the writer Patrick O'Brian (1914- 2008) invented a whole early life for himself. This didn't stop him from producing a series of outstanding naval novels.
Yes, BSM was wrong to accept awards that she was not entitled to. But that should not detract from her outstanding artistic ability.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 10:29 AM

I liked her as an artist and could forgive the made up back story but for one thing. In the Wiki entry about her claim of indigenous identity it states that her brother, Alan, wrote some public letters to the press denying her claim. He received a letter from her solicitors telling him to stop. Direct quote from Wiki now -"Included with the law firm letter was a handwritten note from Buffy Sainte-Marie to her brother stating that she would expose him for allegedly sexually abusing her as a child if he continued speaking about her ancestry."

Had he abused her she should have taken the claim to the police but it seems to have been a spurious claim made just to prevent him from telling the truth. That is despicable at so many levels. Her subsequent, now disproven, stories about her being adopted prove her to be a liar of the highest order and I'm afraid that I cannot help but becoming less of a fan in these circumstances.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 10:56 AM

It's not just a "made up back story" or a "false history"; it's using that fantasy as a pretext for accepting awards and advantages that were established specifically for Indigenous people - to some degree, in order to rectify historical injustices - and thus depriving genuine indigenous persons of those awards and advantages that is unconscionable. This is not a small matter, and distinguishes Buffy's case from those of Grey Owl, Long Lance, and other such imposters that I've heard of. I'm not out to get Buffy; as I say, she's paying the price - but if the matter is to be discussed, it is important not to gloss over its most egregious aspects.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 01:32 PM

I wouldn't criticize Miss Sainte-Marie until you've walked a mile in her moccasins

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 05:45 PM

Just this minute read this:

“Notice is hereby given that the appointment of Buffy Sainte-Marie to the Order of Canada was terminated by Ordinance signed by the Governor General on January 3, 2025.” The date of the announcement was February 8, 2025.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:00 PM

Nonetheless, she has done wonderful music for fifty years.
I'm not one of the "gotcha" people. I just like her music.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:24 PM

'I'm not one of the "gotcha" people' - In the context of this thread, I find that a very odd sentence.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 06:40 PM

This kind of messy finger pointing and shaming has been going on for years in the field of American Indian literature. It's why a lot of scholars got out of the field, because so many folks (white EuroAmericans) pile on with righteous indignation. Studying the work, appreciating the artistry, is all for naught when people can point fingers and say someone isn't really what they claim. It never ends well.

Are you proud of yourselves for dragging down a very talented woman because the identity she chose to occupy doesn't line up with the official record? How many other celebrities have manufactured a back story, built an empire, but as long as they don't claim to be indigenous they can go on their way. Even those who have committed crimes. Something is really wrong here.

And I agree with a recent critic of the progressive aspects of the Democratic Party - I'll have to think for a while to remember who it was - but they pointed out that the spate of recent public acknowledgements that institutions are sitting on land that was once indigenous are meaningless. Lipservice, because there are no reparations, they don't intend to do anything about the colonization that led to where we are today. But by all means, jump all over a woman who has built a career acknowledging the contributions of indigenous people.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 08:03 PM

To recap: it's MORE than just someone who isn't really what they claim: it's that she used her claim to essentially rob artists from an historically oppressed population of what should have been theirs.

From Wiki:

American Indian College Fund's Lifetime Achievement Award        1998

Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards Lifetime Achievement Award        2008

Juno Award for Indigenous Music Album of the Year        2018

Indigenous Music Awards for Best Folk Album        2018

Issiqut Anguk, sister of singer Kelly Fraser who lost the 2018 Juno Award for Indigenous Music Album of the Year to her, wrote that Fraser "respected Buffy so much and it hurts to hear that maybe, just maybe it would've changed Kelly's life if she won the Juno award and Buffy didn't."


There's more of this kind of stuff in the Wiki article.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GerryM
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 03:56 AM

On the one hand, she accepted rewards to which others were entitled.
On the other hand, she did much to bring the plight of Native Americans to the attention of the rest of us.
Which weighs heavier in the scales?

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 08:24 AM

Not in the linked threads: Buffy Sainte-Marie - blacklisting??

New consequences, old news. Making a career of stealing heritage to prove stealing heritage is wrong; is a career's worth of wrongs. Typical for politics and/or pop music.

Pretendian

Folks used to just call it “redface.” That one has its own wiki these days.

Subject: RE: Buffy Sainte-Marie: A Unique Artist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 25 - 08:29 AM

I agree with all the points about her reasons and her music but the act of accusing her brother of abuse to shut him up is still wrong unless she follows it though with some proof