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Joan Baez: Folk guitar

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GUEST,Sarah B. 06 Dec 05 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 06 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM
Desert Dancer 06 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM
GUEST,potbelly 07 Dec 05 - 09:43 AM
MissouriMud 07 Dec 05 - 10:15 AM
Strollin' Johnny 07 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM
Wesley S 07 Dec 05 - 10:57 AM
Chris in Wheaton 07 Dec 05 - 11:54 AM
pdq 07 Dec 05 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Nancy King at work 07 Dec 05 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,David A. 07 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM
Mooh 08 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Rich S. 08 Dec 05 - 11:08 AM
Chris in Wheaton 08 Dec 05 - 02:20 PM
Tattie Bogle 08 Dec 05 - 07:35 PM
DonMeixner 09 Dec 05 - 01:02 AM
the one 09 Dec 05 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Will K. 09 Dec 05 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Owen S. 09 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM
DonMeixner 10 Dec 05 - 12:49 AM
Sourdough 10 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Will K. 10 Dec 05 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Guest 28 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM
PHJim 28 Sep 15 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Guest: David 29 Sep 15 - 02:10 AM
Bugsy 29 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Guest David 29 Sep 15 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Guest: David 29 Sep 15 - 12:55 PM
Bugsy 29 Sep 15 - 07:38 PM
Hagman 29 Sep 15 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Guest: David 29 Sep 15 - 11:55 PM
PHJim 29 Sep 15 - 11:59 PM
GUEST,Guest: David 30 Sep 15 - 12:45 AM
Gurney 30 Sep 15 - 02:50 AM
The Sandman 30 Sep 15 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 15 - 09:48 PM
PHJim 30 Sep 15 - 10:38 PM
GUEST 01 Oct 15 - 01:48 AM
GUEST 01 Oct 15 - 03:16 AM
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Subject: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Sarah B.
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:07 PM

Can someone explain the different picking styles Joan used to accompany herself in her early career as a singer accompanying herself on guitar in the 60's. I think her skills were/are very solid. Never flashy, but, full of variety. I never sense she's playing with a pick, just different fingerpicking and strumming patterns (and walking bass line). I'm especially interested in how she was able to add such variety to her songs. I can tell from her records she probably used a capo as well sometimes. I'm a folksinger/guitarist (two year folk guitarist self-taught), who doesn't want to imitate another artist, but, who would like to figure out what Joan was doing on guitar. Is her folk guitar style as complicated as it sounds?


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM

I do think that your analysis is very much on target -- and quite accurate. Pretty much all fingerpicking and nice variations of Carter Family stums and bass runs.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

The Joan Baez Songbook indicates the chords as played (and capo'd), as well as the key sung. It's still available (see the link).

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,potbelly
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 09:43 AM

Hi; miss baez dose simple little finger runs between chords as well as open tuning' some one said to me i am lucky to play the guitar as i do i said aint it funny the more i pratice the luck ier i get. recards potbelly.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: MissouriMud
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 10:15 AM

For a start learn the Carter family lick with thumb and index finger, including playing the melody with your thumb on breaks. Also learn a few 4 and 6 beat arpeggio patterns (such as Thumb, index, third/fourth, index). With those you'll be able to cover a lot of what she did early on. Beyond that you'll need start messing with some slightly more complex finger picking. A lot of what Joan did was to just do simple things really well, so don't be in a rush to get too fancy too fast.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM

Always play within your limits, then no-one will ever know what your limits are.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 10:57 AM

I seem to remember too that she had a real clarity of tone that was exceptional. Part of that was her old Martin - but most of it was in her fingers.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:54 AM

David Cohen taught me how to fingerpick at the Ashgrove classes in 1964-65. Fingerpicking 101 was just learning to play Freight Train - using 4-5 different 3-finger combinations. I never had to learn much more, and I'm still learning how to use variations on this style. For example, I just started playing Dave Von Ronk's 7th chords for Do You Love John Hurt.
My point is that, even if you have the talent for great chops, I think a good song is best presented by a simple guitar style such as Joan and others have used - Bruce Langehorne's playing for Don't Think Twice says it all for me. I also higly recommend learning to play an Echo harmonica, as played by Utah Phillips, this can also add a heck of a lot to a good song.
Chris in Wheaton


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: pdq
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 12:18 PM

Chris in Wheaton,

Just curious, but was that the David Cohen who did session work in the LA area or was that the David Cohen who worked folk clubs in New York, later to record under the name "David Blue"?


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Nancy King at work
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:52 PM

I think one of the things that made Joan Baez' recordings so striking was the simplicity of her arrangements. Neither her beautiful, clear voice nor the songs themselves were upstaged by flashy instrumental work. Would there were more like that!

Nancy


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,David A.
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM

Joan has said often that she considered her guitar work as accompaniment *only* to her singing. She never seemed to realize she's a really good folk guitarist (simplicity and excellence of style.) She says when the fingerpicking patterns are taken apart and learned slowly, they're not difficult at all. When I listen to her early records, her playing sometimes sounds so complex yet clean. When I grow more as a guitarist, it will be easier for me to figure out what she was/is doing.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM

There's an interesting tale that Martin, when servicing Baez's guitar discovered written on the inside of the top, "Too bad you are a communist." Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Rich S.
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:08 AM

This thread has made me curious to pull out Joan's early albums to hear her approach to accompanying herself in her folk years. It's a nice, full guitar style, uncluttered with extra notes/chords. What she's doing really is not complicated. As someone else mentioned, she's mostly doing a variety of simple fingerpcking patterns, playing melodies within chords and walking bass. When someone feels their music deeply and puts in the practice, it shows in their playing. It's clear Joan was very committed to singing/playing in a style that suited her artistic expression.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:20 PM

"David Cohen who did session work in the LA area" taught at the Ash Grove in the '60;s - you can google it!!
His brother, Norm, lives in Portland OR and wrote a book on train songs.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:35 PM

I learned what little finger-picking I have from the Alan Lomax/Pete Seeger American folk Guitar book (price 5 shillings in the 1960s!)Watching other guitarists you see some who achieve quite a lot by only using the thumb, and others who perhaps use one or 2 fingers + thumb. IMHO you've got 5 digits, so don't be afraid to use them all, and more than one at a time! I've never mastered how to use thumb-picks or a plectrum, I just let my nails suffer !
TB


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 01:02 AM

My finger picking style was called "The Joan Baez Style" by my first teacher some 30 years ago. Basically it is a three finger (Thumb, index, middle) style where any four adjacent strings are played by picking 1(T)-3(I)-2(T)-4(M). This pattern was easily varied by alternating the first string played, usually with more bassy strings.
Two string pinches are another nice variation.

It is also nice because you can easily slide back and forth to other patterns or basic strums. These are simple and clean moves for some one who is primarily a singer.

Don


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: the one
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 09:06 AM

all sounds good to me.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Will K.
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:49 AM

hi Don & others,

i'm a self-taught folk guitarist, who uses the guitar mainly as accompaniment to my voice. i've been playing the guitar for two years, and don't fully understand the picking style you describe above.

it sounds very interesting, and i'd like to use it since i already use my thumb (for bass strings), first and second fingers (for other strings) to fingerpick.

just the other day, i purchased one of her albums called Very Early Joan (live performances from the early 60's when Joan toured colleges in the south)....great stuff.

cheers,
Will


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Owen S.
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM

Joan influenced a lot of people to pick up a guitar and learn to fingerpick (and in some cases...sing.)


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 12:49 AM

Hi Will,

Try as I may I can't really describe it any simpler but I'll try.
Play a C Major Chord with the Bass E string fretted at the third fret.
Start with a T (Thumb)on A string-3rd fret, then Index on G string open, Then the T on D-2, then M on B-1. Begin again but alternate the thumb to the E-3 for the alternating bass.

Experiment with this pattern on other chords in the Key of C.
I hope this pattern comes through OK. This isn't typical TAB but it may be clear enough to be a help.

Don


         "C Major"
E-----------3-------------------------Thumb-------------------
A-----------3----Thumb--------------------------Thumb---------
D-----------2--------------Thumb------------------------------
G--------------------Index-----------------Index--------------
B-----------1-------------------Middle---------------Middle---
E-------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Sourdough
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM

When Iwas in college, I was part of a student group made up of people who were passionate about traditional music and so we formed a group with an unusual goal (yes, Joan Baez will come into this story but you'll have to wait a bit). We put on concerts in a 2400 seat auditorium we rented, and we made money at it. We had people like Theodore Bikel (he introduced us to his protégée, Odetta Felios - that was a powerful voice) Cynthia Gooding, Rambling Jack Elliot, and I think we put on the New Lost City Ramblers but the one sure moneymaker was Pete Seeger. We could sell out the auditorium twice a year if we could get Pete Seeger.

For the big free weekend, we would invite the well known and the not so well but terrific musicians to join us, no cost and even the liquor, or at least the beer was free. Literally, we could sit and talk with people like Fiddler Beers and Blind Rev. Gary Davis. I had never seen a psaltery before and Fiddler showed me how it was built, how it was tuned , played and told me the story of how it came West in a covered wagon with his family (before he took it East again).

One night Gary Davis was improvising some blues and a group of us college students had drifted over to listen. At first, I thought it was some sort of sermon he was giving but when I listened closely, he was advising us young men and women to stop wasting out time listening to him and to go upstairs "to be fruitful and multiply", or at least to practice at it.

Judy Collins also came at least one year. She was already starting to make a name for herself Listening to someone that beautiful sing so beautifully was really special.

Getting Pete Seeger meant dealing with Manny Greenhill, his manager. Manny was tough to deal with but he was really good for the talent he handled and even though he was in Boston, he managed a lot of the big names of that period. (We are getting closer to the Joan Baez part now.)

One time we approached Manny wanting Pete Seeger because we were otherwise going to be a little short on the money we would have for our Spring Folk Retreat that year. When we called Manny, it turned into "Let's Make Deal". Yes, we could have Peter, IF!!

The "if" was that we had to take a young singer Manny was handling, too. We had to give her her own concert and there were some stipulations about how much publicity we had to do for it but if we would agree we could have Pete Seeger and he would charge us very little for the young folk singer that hhe was adding on because, as he explained, he wanted her to have the experience of playing in a large hall.

Unless you haven't been paying attention, you've probably figured out already that this was Joan Baez.

I hadn't met her yet. I was up in the balcony checking on the follow spot. I finished there ad was down in the orchestra waiting with the rest of the audience and I don't think there was one person in a hundred in the hall who had any idea of what to expect. Someone who knew Manny pointed out Joan's father and sister in the audience (I think her mother was there, too). Only later did I realize that they must have thought this was very important because I went to school on the East Coast and her father was teaching, I believe, at Stanford. I think they must have been very proud and wanted to be with her when she took her first step out of tiny coffee houses where the audience is numbered in the tens to a small auditorium where the numbers are in the thousands.

Then Joan appeared. She stepped out on the stage and I remember my first reaction - all these thoughts hit me simultaneously.

"That long hair is beautiful." " She looks so tiny all alone on that big stage" and "She's barefoot." Somehow the lack of shoes made her look even more vulnerable.

When she began to sing, I think most of us fell in love on the spot but our dates didn't seem to mind.

Manny charged us $50 for that concert, We brought her back several more times in the next two or three years. The Baez popularity had begun. Her records were selling well and the price went up to over $2,000 or 40 times what she made at the first concert. Not only was she a terrific singer, she had a great manager.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Will K.
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 01:52 PM

Don,

Thanks for the information. it helped a lot.

Sourdough, your story inspired me! Merry Christmas to all :)

Will


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM

Someone mentioned above that Joan Baez
played in open tunings in the 1960's. I've never heard
that before. Can someone else confirm this?


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: PHJim
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:32 PM

For Carter Family songs like Gospel Ship, she'd pick the tune and runs with her thumb and strum chords with her fingers (Carter's Scratch)
She would use a Travis-style three finger picking both with thumb lead (Butcher Boy) and finger lead.
For ballads, she would often use a four finger arpeggio style:
TIMRMI or TIMIRIMI or TIMIRIMI or some other patterns, usually starting with the thumb. She would sometimes use what Peggy Seeger called the "lullaby lick" in 3/4 and 4/4.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest: David
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 02:10 AM

Thanks for writing the finger picking patters out, PHJim. This will help a lot. I'll check Youtube for a demonstration on the Carter Scratch and the lullaby lick. Its moments like these that makes me love Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Bugsy
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

Looking forward to seeing her at Perth Concert Hall tomorrow night!

CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest David
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:04 PM

Let us know how the concert goes, Bugsy.
I'm especially interested in hearing
how things go when she takes the stage
alone with her guitar.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest: David
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:55 PM

Does Joan Baez play the guitar by herself on The Lily Of The West or is she accompanied by Fred Hellerman or another guitarist on the recording?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txmlaZbY-f4

Joan singing The Lily Of The West


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Bugsy
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:38 PM

Apparently David, she got a standing ovation when she walked on stage in Canberra.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Hagman
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:48 PM

Saw her in Melbourne last Friday night. First five or six songs were solo acoustic - for those who don't like listening to tuning-up, you'll be pleased to know she has a guitar roadie.. Playing was excellent - I'm not a guitarist, so can't go into the techo stuff, but playing much more than just capable. Looked to me like she was playing little Martin guitars, but can't be sure. They sounded great. Her voice has dropped a bit, obviously.

Fans of Phil Ochs will be comforted to know that she still plays "There But For Fortune." Also played a couple of tunes by and about a bloke called Bob Dylan. In the main it was all earlish repertoire (even "Silver Dagger" from the first 1960 Vanguard LP.) But no "Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"...

Remember this is a performer who was playing Carnegie Hall solo at 19. She knows her stuff!


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest: David
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:55 PM

Thanks for that, Bugsy and Hagman.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: PHJim
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:59 PM

I had always assumed that I was hearing Joan playing Carter-style on Lily Of The West. It's a neat little introductory run that sounds pretty impressive, but is pretty easy to play. I like it a lot.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST,Guest: David
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 12:45 AM

Hi PHJim,

Can you give me some kind of written instruction and/or tab to learn how to play the intro Joan uses when she plays The Lily Of the West?


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 02:50 AM

I had her songbook once. I noticed that in several of her songs the 6th string was tuned to D.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:01 AM

apologies for thread drift, here is a suggestion, take the suggestion of don meixner and put all the thumb on the off beat as an exercise, so the player starts with a finger then plays the thumb.
if a player gets used to this, it can vary the sound,so the the thumb can occasionally throw in a thumb on the off beat, slightly like bill broonzy. if a player plays five string banjo up picking with fingers and drop thumbing, it is a very similiar technique.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 09:48 PM

A fabulous concert at Perth Concert Hall last night! Joan was on form as expected.
She had 2 guys accompanying her, who's names (I'm ashamed to say)I don't remember. they were however fabulous musicians who seamlessly melded into Joan's music style.

Most of the programme was from her early recordings. She did a good version of Eric Bogle's "Band Played Waltzing Matilda" albeit with two verses ommitted, and a nicely read version of Shane Howard's "Solid Rock" with Didj backing.

She was on stage for 1hour 45 mins including 2 encores.

All in all, a memorable night.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: PHJim
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 10:38 PM

Guest:David, Here's how I play the Lily lick. I hope you can understand this:

_____________0-_0-__0-________________________________________
___________1-_____3-__1-_1-_0-_1-______________________________
________0/2-____________________2-_2-_0-_2-____________________
____0/2-__________________________________2-_3-_2_0_______0/2-_
__0-_______________________________________________3_2_0-_____
_____________________________________________________________


Work from an Am chord.
Play all individual notes with the thumb.
0/2 means to hammer from an open string.
Any number followed by a - has a UDU strum with the fingers (Maybelle used her index).
You can get a very similar sound using a flat pick.
Either Joan is capoed at the first fret or maybe I'm tuned a fret low.


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 01:48 AM

Bugsy, the percussionist on tour with Joan Baez is Gabe Harris, her son.... the guitarist/multi-instrumentalist is Dirk Powell....

http://www.joanbaez.com/bandandcrew.html


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Subject: RE: Joan Baez: Folk guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 03:16 AM

Thanks GUEST.


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