Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics

Subject: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: WooBerry
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:28 AM

I have a big question that I can't find a thread to answer all of them. If I am mistaken, or not searching with the right terms, please let me know!

How does one know if a folk lyric/tune is copyrighted?
What is the best source to learn about copyright?
What are the legal rules about adding or changing lyrics to suit a specific need
What are the unofficial folkie rules about doing this?

My example: I have found a song, on an album (American Folk Songs for Christmas Mike Peggy and Penny Seeger) that is also in the book of the same name by Ruth Crawford Seeger and in the DT. Done Found My Lost Sheep

I am a catechist at my church and one of the parables we present is that of the Found Sheep. We like to sing songs to help the children remember (especially pre-readers) This song is perfect for that. I would like to add some verses about the Lost Coin and the Prodigal son, (*and I think it would be pretty easy to do), but am I allowed?
If I were to want to record for other catechists the same songs I search out like this, could I do this?

Thanks!
Diana

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From:
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM

Hmmm. Mostly, ask a lawyer for question 2 and 3.

A real folk tune wouldn't be copyrighted, though modern (within the last 100 years) tunes might be.

In general, for question 3, and 4, there are no rules, as parodies are made all the time.

As for question 5 and 6, you probably could, but credit must be given. There are a number of church songs in United Church of Canada and I'm told in Catholic hymnals which have folk tunes as their basis. But credit is given to the anonymous person by saying that the tune is "xxx". There are a number of songs which come from Iona which use ancient folk tunes like that.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: WooBerry
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 02:15 PM

Thank you George

I will think on it some more. Meanwhile I am just enjoying them so much!

Diana

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM

"A real folk tune wouldn't be copyrighted"

Some particular _arrangement_ of any tune, no matter when originally composed, or even a 'real folk tune', may still be copyrighted.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:12 AM

Where I cannot get lyrics from sleeve notes or interwub searches, I have been taking them down by hand from recordings from various current folk artists, for my own (only to be performed in sing around sessions) use.

They are kept in my folk song folder in word format, with credits to artist (lyricist/composer where available) - i.e. performed by one artist but credited as copyright to another artist.

It seems a shame that these documents will live only on my hard drive. I would like to share them, but fear it will be copyright infringement to post or share them.

Should I try to contact artists and ask if they will share lyrics on the Digital Tradition?

---

Please post what you like at Mudcat, and let us worry about the copyright implications. Most of the time, nobody seems to mind if a song is posted in a discussion forum. If a publisher does mind, we're willing to remove it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:21 AM

A great deal of Music Hall material is still under copyright - not on behalf of the composer/'lyricist, but under publishers copyright. When I last looked a considerable amount of the music hall 'catalogue' was under the copyright control of Time Warner.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

Who I am referring to are the folk artists not famous or under big labels. You pick up their CDs when they visit local clubs, perform at festivals, etc. It is this type of stuff I worry about being lost.

They produce and sell their own CDs or share/give permission to other like artists to record. But the lyrics are not down anywhere for us listeners and amateur performers use.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

Wooberry, it sounds as if you are in the USA. US copyright law is unlike that of any other country, in many respects. Even so there has for many years been no need to do any act to cause copyright to arise. Proving that it has arisen, or its ownership is another matter!

The Copyright office at the US Library of Congress as a very useful pile of information on US law - start

here

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Darowyn
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

It's not too long ago that there was a blitz on Guitar Tab websites for breaking copyright. Many were served with take-down notices.
They seem to be back now, but it might be worth looking into the story of that legal argument for a precedent for what you are thinking of.

Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

Gee whiz, wouldn't those tabs be new arrangements, thus the tab creator can copywrite them? And each variant be eligible for another © ?

Okay, I'll slither back under my rock.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

absolutely not.

you cannot copyright an arrangement of a work that is in copyright.

only of one that is OUT of cooyright. and that work stays out of copyright. ony the arrangement is protected

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:15 AM

That is not wholly good law in England.

First, one does not have to do anything to make copyright in a work arise, so "to copyright" is not correct usage.

Second, although an unauthorised adaptation or arrangement of a copyright work is an infringment there is no absolute rule that copyright does not arise in an infringment. If the adaptation or arrangement passes the threshold tests it is a work in which there is copyright - but it cannot be reproduced etc without infringing the copyright in the original.

The old rule that physical property in an infringment notionally passed to the copyright owner of the oiginal has long been abolished.

The upshot is that the copyright in the arrangement (lawful or not) arises in the author of that arrangement and remains in him until assigned.

So the arrangement annot be used without two permissions - that of the author of the original (or his successor in title) AND of the arrangement.

If the original is out of copyright, then the arrangement is not an infringment, and only the permission of the author of the arrangement is necessary.

But the author of the arrangement only owns the copyright in his arrangement, and not in the underlying work (whether the underlying work is in copyright or not).

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

Which is basically what I said, only in plain English, lol!

Thanks for the clarification, Richard. It's important that people understand this.

Tom

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:34 AM

The principal difference would be the existence and ownership of copyright in the infringment. An infringment is not deprived of copyright. It has its own copyright.

The infringment cannot be used without the permission of the owner of rights (if any) in the underlying work - but no-one, not even the owner of the rights in the underlying work, can use the infringment without the permission of the owner of the rights in the infringment.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM

Still the hardest part for "Folk" songs and tunes is establishing whether they actually ARE in copyright. Many songs thought of as "folk" or public domain are actually quite recent, and in some cases the composer is still alive.

I did see a web site some time ago which was attempting to make a list of "public domain" songs and tunes, but even that would only cover specific versions.

The only safe course (in the UK), I think, is to use songs which were certainly published before 1900. If your version is later than that, look for an earlier version. One well known example would be "will ye go, lassie" or Wild Mountain Thyme. This can be traced back to 1797, but copyright has been claimed on the version most commonly sung these days (different tune, and different version of the words).

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

The duration of copyright in the UK in a literary or dramatic work depends not on the date of publication (but there is a twist, see below, for pre-1911 Act works) but the date of death of the author. It is therefore essential to know the author.

The duraion is life + 70 + to the end of the year. So for such a work to be in copyright now, the author must have been alive on or after the 1st January 1939.

There is a twist about the 1911 Act however. Copyright (or a right being part of copyright) under that Act did not exist if it did not exist on the 1st July 1912 (the commencement date of the 1911 Act).

Prior to that, the duration of copyright in a literary or musical work (there is a twist about performing right, see below) was the longer of 42 years from the date of publication (even if posthumous publication) or 7 years from the death of the author.

Obviously the death bit drops out of the equation for if the author died 7 years before 1912, the modern duration of copyright would by now have expired.

Suppose, however, that an author lived to be 100. If he was still alive in 1939, such an author would have been born in 1839 (after the commencement of the Fine Arts Copyright Act 1833, and his work would have been in copyright still at the commencement of the International Copyright Act 1842 that extended the term from life+28 to life + 42 (where applicable)) So long as his work was first published not earlier than 1870, it would have been in copyright under the 1911 Act and so today.

Any work of a UK writer or composer (let us ignore the international aspects, PLEASE, just for the moment) which work was first published in 1870 or later, and whose author was still alive in 1939 is still in copyright in the UK.

A pre-1911 Act work may however be deprived of performing right in three ways.

First, it may have lost its performing right under teh 1833 and 1842 Acts if: -

1. It was first performed outside the British Dominions, then Berene convention countries, or Austria-Hungary.
2. It was first published (rahter than performed) - before havning been performed, in one of those countries - then it got book copyright that did not include a performing right.

3. If it was a musical composition (ie a tune, not words) under the Copyright (Musical Compositions) Act 1882 - if it was published without the express reservation of the performing right on the title page of EVERY copy published. Many tunes may be caught by this as it was standard practice expressly to waive performing right on sheet music and libretti, to avoid getting caught by the collection antics of a chap called "Wall" who used to buy up rights ust to enforce the then statutory penalties.

So publication before 1900 is NOT a safe touchstone.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

Even MORE complicated than I realised, then.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

No, really, don't thank me, there is no need to be effusive...

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

so NO posting correctly attributed lyrics on Mudcat without express permission from the owner/original author... right?

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

Technically, you are right. It is a reproduction. Or it would be if UK law applied but the Mudcat servers are in the USA and now we have to discuss the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and consider whether the fact that lots of UK users read the digitrad makes a difference and ... oh shit.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Point of fact, here in the USA you own the copyright when you create a song, but to have legal protection for your song you must register the copyright with the Library of Congress. Most people say "copyright" when they mean copyright registration: LOC will register your copyright for you, which may protect you against copyright infringement, for a fee and a form you fill out. (Just my two cents worth....)

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

People in the past have tried to use "poor-man's copyright", which is
placing the composition in whichever format the original copy of the
composition is recorded or written, and having it mailed to themselves
with a time-stamp. The person can not open it unless it is needed for
proof in case they have to go to court at some point in time.

This "poor-man's copyright", (although the post office may time-stamp
the envelope) doesn't always work in court, which makes Sharyn's
advice necessary, if you are a songwriter who publicizes your work.

The guitar tab sites, bass, drums, etc. which publish copyrighted material have s "fair-use" argument. They post a message on each tab
indicating that they are "interpretations", and are for educational
purposes. There are sites that have tabs for instruments that aren't
even on the recording, and indicate that it is also for educational
purposes, yet the tabs they publish are usually the exact
compositions on the recording.
The major concern is actually preventing illegal downloading, and
figuring out a way to boost revenue on legal downloads, because the
legal downloads aren't turning out the profits they need. They will
probably turn their attention to those sites once they can boost
revenue on the downloads. For now, it isn't a major concern for the
record labels.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:47 AM

If it is technically right NOT to post lyrics without express permission, should we not apply the same rule singing the songs in sessions? Technically we should not be able to do this either, unless the owner has said it is ok.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: LeTenebreux
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

I recently saw the movie "Milk" and in the credits they provided attributions for the song "Happy Birthday".

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:22 AM

VirginiaTam, technically you are correct. However the premises should have a licence from the Performing Rights Society which allows you to perform copyright material to which PRS administers the rights.

In theory, a proportion of the licence fee is supposed to find its way back to the composer. However the admin is so inefficient that it is doubtful whether this is very effective so far as folk music is concerned.

Where the composer is not a member of the PRS then in theory you should seek their permission. In practice this is seldom done, unless its for a commercial recording or you happen to know the composer. It's fairly safe to assume that if a composer was that bothered about asserting his rights he'd join the PRS. Most in the folk world seem just to be happy to get their material performed.

Controversially, PRS also claims a right to licence premises where non-copyright material is being performed, on the grounds that copyright material might be sung (do you know the copyright status of all the songs you sing? "Happy Birthday" is copyrighted, as the post following yours noted)

There are plenty of threads about PRS if you care to search for them and don't lose the will to live.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:43 AM

Agreed (apart from the use of the word "copyrighted")

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

It sounds like the Inland Revenue billing you for income tax because it MIGHT be due.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

They do that, too, sometimes, in special investigations, and the burden shifts to the taxpayer to prove that it isn't due!

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

Hi -
We ask posters to post whatever they like and not worry about copyrights, to let us deal with that. It can be argued that posting lyrics for discussion in an Internet forum falls under the "fair use" allowances of copyright law, although we'd rather not try to argue that in court. Our policy is that we will remove lyrics if the copyright holder objects. We have rarely had an objection, because most of the songs posted here are of such small commercial value and because many folk musicians find our lyrics forum helps publicize their work. If at all possible, provide correct attribution for songs - and document the source of all lyrics you post, whether traditional or not. You will notice that in a number of posts, I have added attribution and corrections in brown typeface.
We don't encourage the posting of lyrics of current pop songs, but we don't prohibit it. Luckily, that's not an issue we have to deal with very often. We don't facilitate the sharing of MP3 files, because that could get us into trouble.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM

You probably stand a better chance under US "fair use" law than UK.

If you could restructure the digitrad on a web2 basis you might be protected by DCMA provisions, if you complied with takedown notices.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

What's all that mean, Richard?

All I know is that we haven't been asked to remove lyrics from a post, although we have had to remove a few songs from the Digital Tradition. So, it seems to me that people have no need to worry about posting lyrics here.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM

Greetings:

Sharyn wrote, "Point of fact, here in the USA you own the copyright when you create a song, but to have legal protection for your song you must register the copyright with the Library of Congress." That's exactly what my lawyer told me. Put another way, I may own the copyright by virtue of authorship, but no one is under any obligation to pay me a licensing fee and/or obtain my permission for its use until I have registered that copyright.

My lawyer also told me another important reason to register a copyright: proof of ownership. Registering a copyright claim is prima facie evidence of ownership. In the case of disputed ownership, the person who registered the claim first prevails unless the other party has sufficient evidence to refute that claim. The burden of proof is on the person with the later claim, and that is often a difficult burden to successfully overcome.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM

Possible Thread Creep Here, but this is related. I am in the process of filing for compulsory licenses to pay my mechanical royalties for the pressing of a thousand upcoming CDs. I am having trouble finding and contacting publishers of some songs by famous musicians. Further, I am a little confused by the procedure for licensing a medley of covers. Has anyone in the USA done this sucessfully and lived to tell the tale. This might be useful info for others, but anyone is also welcome to PM me about this or refer me to extant threads. Thanks for your help.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:32 PM

Refresh znd repeat:

Cone on all you performers with CDs for sale. Who has successfully obtained the mechanical license for a medley and how did you do it? I have been writing to publishers and writers. I don't know what else to do. Has anyone used one of the services that secures mechanical licenses for you? A few of them come up when you Google "mechanical license."

I know some people on here must know how to get this done. Please help. You can PM me if you like or email me at [e-mail] or even call me (PM me for the number).

Thanks,

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

Talking US law here.

The above advice regarding the restriction of copyright proceedings in the absence of US copyright registration is only valid in the case of "United States Works". See S 101 for the definition of "United States Work" and see S 411 for the restriction.

It does not affect most (a) works of non-US authors nor (b) works first published outside the US.

I had been worrying that that which was stated above was not compatible with the Berne Convention, and sure enough the genesis of the amendments (although not he current text) came from the (US) Berne Convention Implementation At.

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM

Hi Sharyn

I can't advise on the USA (I'm in Blighty) or on finding publishers, but I did have trouble on the last CD with a medley of two tunes for which I needed a licence - the only time I've ever had to apply for one for someone else's material.

The boxes on the PRS on-line form did not permit me to enter two separate writers and two separate publishers for two tunes as one single track, so I put both in the boxes provided. They then emailed me for more information, so I gave them ALL the listed publishers and tune codes - even the ones I knew to be wrong - from their own database (which is not definitive - just a record of reports of use), and they then granted me a licence.

In the UK you don't have to contact the writer or publisher to use a copyright work. The fact that the work is published means you can use it. But you must get a licence. I think the PRS contact the copyright holder, but I'm not sure about that.

I guess that holds true for Canada too (one of the 'covers' I'd used was published there) so it may be the same in the USA. If so, you should only need to deal with your licensing authority - unless you are wanting to register your own copyright of your versions. I THINK that's right - Richard will know for sure.

Tom

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

Sharyn --

on my band's last CD we recorded a Richard Thompson song. I contacted RT's publishing company as well as the Harry Fox Agency, which sells mechanical licenses. If you're pressing less than 1,000 copies, I think the fee is $0.08 per copy.

I don't see any reasons why medleys should be problematic; just get the mechanical licenses for each song in the medley.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 07:24 PM

Thanks all, keep the answers coming. According to Harry Fox Agency, they do not handle the mechanical licenses for medleys ( I read this on their website) and thus I must contact everyone's publisher and get the publishers to agree. Someone on Mudcat must have had to do this sometime, which means that someone knows how to do it in the U.S. If I thought buying a mechanical license for each song in the medley would cover it, I would do that, but HFA says no.

So far, I have ascertained Leonard Cohen's publisher and received a brief email from Richard Thompson, but I have not contacted his publisher yet, nor have I heard from Cohen's.

I am also seeking the right to reprint lyrics, as I am including the lyrics to all of the songs on my soon-to-be-finished CD.

I appreciate everyone's attempts to help and I know someone has the answer.

Cheers!

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Suffet
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:43 PM

Sharyn,

On my most recent CD, Low Rent District, I included a live performance of Woody Guthrie's distinctive version of Lonesome Valley in which I sang a couple of verses of Guthrie's You Got to Go Down and Join the Union,both being to the same tune. Ludlow Music is the copyright holder for both songs, so I called them to ask what I should do. Not surprisingly, they said I should pay the licensing fee for both songs as if I had recorded them separately. That's what I did, but instead of paying Ludlow directly, I went through the Harry Fox Agency website, which is what they strongly recommended I do. The fee for each of the two songs was 9.1 cents per CD plus a $10 service charge. The Harry Fox Agency e-mailed me an acknowledgement immediately and the actual mechanical licenses within 24 hours. It was all very painless.

Best of luck.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:42 AM

Thanks, Steve.

I'll say it one more time: right there in print on Harry Fox Agency's website there is a section that says, "What we do not license" and right there on the "what we do not license list" is "medleys." It instructs those who have had the misfortune to record medleys to contact each publisher involved and to get agreement between them. I am trying to do the right thing here -- I just wish it were easier -- and faster wouldn't hurt either.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:47 AM

Looking at some of the gospel music recently, it is interesting how many of the songs that have become standards are not copyright to the original holder or composer, but copyright has been sold or assigned to others.

"Peace in the Valley" was written by Thomas A. Dorsey in 1939 (not 1936 as noted in the DT). In 1951 copyright was assigned to Hill and Range Songs, Inc., NY (Jean and Julian Auerbach), international copyright secured. "All rights reserved including the right of public performance for profit." The Auerbachs corralled many gospel favorites. Don't know who has their rights now.

The lyrics in the DT are not those of Dorsey; but belong to another who covered the song. Lyrics belong in another thread (is there one on this song? Couldn't find one).

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:36 PM

Shary,

You wrote: I'll say it one more time: right there in print on Harry Fox Agency's website there is a section that says, "What we do not license" and right there on the "what we do not license list" is "medleys." It instructs those who have had the misfortune to record medleys to contact each publisher involved and to get agreement between them. I am trying to do the right thing here -- I just wish it were easier -- and faster wouldn't hurt either.

While I agree that's what the Harry Fox Agency website says, the person at Ludlow Music, the actual publisher, advised me to go to the HFA website and pay for two separate licenses as if I had recorded the two songs separately. Whether that was the right thing or not didn't seem to matter, since the publisher got their royalties. I doubt that any other publisher would care, provided it got paid.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright/singing/publishing/add lyrics
From: sharyn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Steve. I may go that route if I don't hear otherwise from the publishers I have contacted -- it would certainly be easier and faster.

Sharyn