BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM

No, it would do no good whatsoever, as proved by past experience they would just be throwing away good money after bad. The company has to be competitive and produce something that will sell, if it cannot do either then it should go.

I have only ever been involved with two Unions, one was very ineffectual adopting a "let sleeping dogs lie" approach to almost every situation. The other was set up to look after a very special group of workers, the guy who set this up was basically not the slightest bit interested in those he was supposed to represent but used grievences to stir up the shit, which got him media coverage, which was what he needed to launch his political career as a hard-line socialist. Between the two through their efforts, or lack thereoff, the industry collapsed nationally to the point of extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:53 PM

I work in electricity field, though not a union member I have great respect for the IBEW to this day. But the Teamsters? UAW I know very little about.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM

I agree , Robo, unionize the world. That would make for fair wages and opportunities. If the Chinese or Indonesians or whomever were paid fair wages( and not being taken advantage of by corporate America) there would be no issue of out sourcing. It would be as affordable to keep your product at home.

Grab, Ive belonged to two Unions in my time, the IBEW and the UAW. yes, some unions have a pattern of corruption just like every other organization that I'm aware of, but the ones I have belonged to fought to provide me with a good wage, reasonable hours, health benefits, on the job safety and training. My overall quality of life was enhanced by these unions. Don't believe the lies that Big Biz guys tell you about unions. There is a reason they don't like them....they're not allowed to abuse workers at their whim.

Jimmy H, your premise is too ridiculous to even respond to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:03 PM

There were excellent reasons for the unions coming into being and they did a lot of good both socially and for big business, though big business might tend to deny it. Unfortunately as I might have mentioned earlier, there is blame to go around. Bad management, designs for cars that are not as good as the competition, bad ethics on the part of overpaid executives, and featherbedding on the part of unions, along with poor priorities on sensing the overall position of labor in the modern world becoming a commodity that can be shopped around the world.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm saying that's the way it is and it's time to face reality.

Leftydee, I sympathize with your position without agreeing with it. As the song goes (Austin Lounge Lizards): "Life is hard. It's even harder when you're dumb." By which I mean we are all living in a world that has plenty of well trained workers, both blue and white collar. We are all finding it more competitive to stay head above water. This means that those on fixed incomes, those who insist on welfare of one kind or another, are feeling the stress.

I suggest we equalize the stress, by promoting unionization abroad, and by putting executive jobs up on the internet along with all the rest. Why pay some fat yank to manage a multi-national when you can find good management in Beirut, Baluchistan, or Bombay?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Grab
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:48 AM

Lefdee, unions had a part to play, way back when. Then they got too powerful and screwed everything up by becoming a protection racket (a pattern repeated in most countries with powerful unions - US, UK and France are prime examples). Anyone who reckons Jimmy Hoffa was Mother Teresa needs their head read.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

Jimmy is Mr T's other signin!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:44 AM

LOL, Jimmy...

Like Ha-friggin'-ha....

Same old Republican crapola that'[s been going on since FDR...

LIke I said, LOL....

Haha...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:50 PM

Lefty:

If you don't agree with the unions you get cement shoes for a one way skin diving trip. Now pay the greedy bastards their dues.

And dont for get the firemen, coal shovelers on those diesel trains. Featherbedding it is called.

UNION CORRUPTION UPDATE http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU3/05_01_12.htm OPERATING ENGINEERS (IUOE)
Kickbacks Charges Brought Against New York City School Custodians

Labor Unions Aggravate Inflation by Lowering Wages http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=298 It is commonly believed that labor unions generate inflation by increasing the wages of workers. This is not the case. Labor union activities do aggravate inflation, but they do it by reducing the real wages received by workers, not by increasing them. An understanding of why this is true requires, first of all, a brief explanation of the cause of inflation.

Jimmy H.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:22 PM

I don't know if you're an American or not Guest Jimmy but if you are you'd be working for fish heads and potatoes had it not been for labor unions, whether you're in a union or not. The goodness of managment's heart never would have produced a middle class. The greed in their hearts is now what causes them to rape pension funds and trade your future for a little more profit. Unions have forced some redistribution in wealth and that's healthy. The economies that now are busy are the ones where there is gross poverty.

Robomatic, I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it's reality. Yes, the USAs greatest strength is our creativity and inventiveness. There is still a need for production type work. Unionized production work is what opens the door to the middle class for those of us that are, maybe, not so creative or inventive. If all we produce is high tech ideas, what do we do with the less clever amongst us?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:26 AM

Lack of universal health care and the short-sighted refusal to get serious about gas-guzzling is what is dooming US auto manufacturing, not the unions.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:07 AM

I think the labor unions, who ran GM and US industry in general into the ground, should bail out GM.

JH

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:14 AM

" ... we are very good at higher margin items like consulting, design, research and marketing."

The people who make decisions as to what services should be used in these areas will be perfectly ready to send these jobs offshore as soon as it becomes profitable.

~~~

Telecom sent my IT job to India.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:34 PM

Sorry, my memory's failing. The Pontiac was in 2001. '98 was a Ford 350-based compact RV which I loved: something you Americans do really well

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:27 PM

Take a lesson from Britain. The government bailed out Rover (in various incarnations)repeatedly. It didn't save it. GM is failing because it is losing market share. It is losing market share because the customers prefer to buy elsewhere. The imports (including "domestic imports") are gaining market share because they are building cars people prefer to buy.

I don't know if there's been any improvement in the last 7 years, but the last US GM car I had the misfortune to drive in '98(Pontiac Grand Prix) was so far behind the equivalent European/Japanese car in design (underpowered, bad ride, no interior space, poor ergonomics)and manufacture (uneven gaps between panels, boot and bonnet not flush, big gaps in the trim inside, poor fitting carpets, and don't even mention the rattles) I was surprised GM had the nerve to take money off people for it (and even more surprised that anyone would give them money).

Appeals to patriotism and subsidies might drag out the agony, but unless GM can produce a car a well-designed and well built as a Toyota, the customers will continue to buy Toyotas in preference.

BTW if you want to know what happens when the state decides what gets built, look no further than the Trabant. Not a pretty sight.

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 12:44 PM

Seems to me that if the Feds bail out manufacturers, the Feds should have the right to dictate (at least, in part) what gets manufactured. And the conditions (including wages and pension rights) under which such manufacturing occurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:58 AM

And if the oil companies don't like that idea (in my last post), they should be the ones required to bail out the auto manufacturing companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM

They need to get serious about producing vehicles that use alternate energy sources. Whoever is first in the water with that technology will have the competitive advantage. Instead of just "bailing out" G.M., the Feds should also create incentives for companies like G.M. to develop and produce the new technologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:03 AM

Bobert, it looks like I didn't read far enough. I never got to a post from you with a plan. I am off to Mass, but I will read it when I come back.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:55 AM

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, Big Guy, but my plan would also kick in to existing work forces who are stuglling to hold their own... We keep hearing about unions having to give Boss Hog evrything but their jobs themselves when they come to the negotiating table... Thats very much the crux of what I have proposed... This "two tier" system that was negotiated in California a couple years ago is the prime example... You have two folks doing exactly the same job but one has a decents pension plan and the other may not have any plan at all...

Now I could have used health insurance as the plan to be funded by rolling back the tax cuts since it is the other variable cited by failing industries but I'm politically sensitive to the fact that it would have no chance...

Let me tell you what one of your Democratic politicans did here in Virginia, Mick... Now this don't make me a Democrat, mind you, by Governor Mark Warner got a very conservative state with a Republican General Assembly to pass tax ****increases****!!! How di he do this??? Well, simple... He told them exactly what the increased revenues would fund... Yeah, there were some Repubs who balked but he boxed enough into the corner to make them look like grinches if they didn't vote to fund certain programs, educational programs being one...

Another statistic, my friend, is that poverty among oor elderly hasw been increasing percvenatge wise for the last several years and part of the reason is we don't apply enough of our resources toward our elderly... With these "two teir" plans that are cropping up all over America because our industries are failing under a mix of health care costs, pensions and poor managment, it seems the only one of the three that could possibly replicate the scenerio that Gov. Mark Warner faced is that of pensions...

Hey, you profess to be a Democrat... Here's an idea that, while not exactly a slam dunk, is sellable in this country... And I can see the ads with olde people our copllecting shopping carts in the parking lot with snow blowin' all around them and "The Voice" comes on and says something like "Welcome to Boss Hog's America... Support the National Pension Act..." (okay, you write the script)...

There, peopele say the Dems don't have any ideas??? Here's one that is win-win-win and the big losers are the rich folks who got the lion's share of the tax cuts, 'cept they will be so "out framed" they won't be able to say a danged thing...

Not a rant.... Just a good idea...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:15 PM

.... and to answer the question posed .... NO! They ought to bail out the promise made in the plan and sell off the assets of the rich that profited to pay for it.

Rant back on. Another example of this kind of shit in a different industry, and right here in South Jersey. One of the Supermarket chains hires this corporate gunslinger. He negotiates a $40,000,000 (right, folks, thats million) golden parachute. He then destroys the chain, and underfunds the Health and Welfare funds (with the help of certain incompetent Company and Union officials) and now is leaving with his money. The workers will pay the price. We have thrown out the Union officials, and are suing them personally, but this slime bucket will take twice the money it takes to fix the problem and run.

Time to take it to the streets, IMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:10 PM

Bobert, I stopped reading about halfway through the thread, but I want to point out to you that the pension debt of 30 to 40 years ago isn't why the pensions are in trouble. You seem to imply that having these plans is the problem. Let me point out that when The Employmee Retirement Security Act (known as ERISA) was passed, its intent was to see to it that pension plans were fully funded. The business interests couldn't stand the idea that working folks would have safe pensions, and lobbied fiercely to allow other assets (such as creating a special stock which had no rights, and then call it an Employee Stock Ownership Plan) to be put in them. Most of the folks that had these now have worthless stock and no pension. The next blow came, when the negotiated amounts put in the plans had wonderful earnings. This left the Pension Plans with excess money that the employers felt was theirs. Our position (our meaning the Unions) was that the money contributed was part of the compensation of the employees and the earnings belonged to them as well. Along comes Reagan, Gingrich, and company and they pass laws which allow the companies to raid these plans. This was in the 80's and we fought it with all we could. In the end result, the Pension raiders would buy a company, gut the pension plan and assets, and sell it off. The result ..... pension plans that were operating on a shoe string, with all reserves gone. Remember that it was the employees money, fairly negotiated to begin with, that was robbed. Fast forward to now, the greed from the companies, their poor planning, now has them in financial trouble. What do they want to do? Take more from the folks that bargained in good faith.

This is one more example of creating a new reality, and the American public being dumb enough to swallow it. The crime, OK it was only a moral crime, came when they emptied the plans of their assets. Now they wait a few years and declare it is these greedy employees and their 30 or 40 year old pension plans that are the culprit. The concept of these plans is as solid as it ever. The culprit is a greedy management style, and a dumbed down American public that has a memory shorter than certain body parts.

The gap between rich and poor keeps widening, and the fools still believe in the American Dream. Trouble is that it works for fewer and fewer people all the time.

Rant off.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM

" ... we are very good at higher margin items like consulting, design, research and marketing."

The people who make decisions as to what services should be used in these areas will be perfectly ready to send these jobs offshore as soon as it becomes profitable.

This applies particularly to areas like computing - ther are more IT graduates in India every year than anywhere else, and they don't demand Silicon Valley salaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:26 PM

Chump change, Bruce, compared to what most C.E.O.'s make... Even the ones who can't even get thier corporations to make a profit...

But, yeah, I was thinking that, hey, here we've given all this money to the monied class who have either invested it off-shore or lent it to middle class families to buy junk they don't need, you know, like food... An' Bush says, hey, we gotta keep giving this money to the rich because it's good for the econmomy...

Well, if we took it back and set up some kinda national pension insurance fund that would help both the retirees, who would spend the money back into the economy, as well as helping our older companies compete with the younger ones that don't have the pension anchor around their necks...

I don't see the down side other than the redistribution of wealth going back to the middle class rather than the opposite we've seen for the last 20 or so years...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM

Chump change compared to the huge salaries given to the top execs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:10 PM

$400,000 per year plus perks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 08:23 PM

What if the bail out was 100% financed by resceneding the Bush tax cuts, the money went into shoring up pension funds and the C.E.O. of G.M. Had to work fir what the president of the US is paid, which I think is 'round $300,000 a year but still may be $250,000... Can't remember......

Yeah, how 'bout that idea???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM

Peter K and leftydee:

There are still avenues of Yankee excellence. American cars don't suck, American companies are just not led by leaders, they're led by people who appear to be leaders and spend a lot more time negotiating the best package for themselves, viz. the airline pilots for Delta, I think, who are seeing their retirement plans being gutted while the big executives who only spend a few years rearranging the deck chairs take off with protected retirement plans. American aircraft are still first rate, American industrial products as well, the machines that make machines. (They are also priced first rate).

Globalization has made it much easier for the corporations to seek labor where it is good and cheap. This is great for the up and coming economies, not just China. It is tough for the unionized and mature economies with older workers with higher salaries.

What is saving the US is the high quality and productivity of those industrial workers we have, and the dominance in software and computer industry.

What is hurting the US is huge expenditures in military plans which will go nowhere, such as missile defense, and a lack of attention to making the most of recycling and renewable resources. The current administration is living about two generations in the past.

For the future: Seek to introduce workers' rights movements whereever there are workers. Utilize globalization to outlaw sweatshops and child labor everywhere. Reform the medical system.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 07:50 PM

Peter K,
You are absolutely right. I can find no fault in what you say. I still buy North American goods when I can.

Sorry for the thread creep. ..... And NO, GM should not get a bail out. It's welfare for the wealthy...... and we saw how well it worked out for the airlines after 9/11. We offered our money, they took it and feathered their beds and now are ready to have us bail them out again. Up theirs!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 07:16 PM

I haven't got time to read the thread. In a hurry. Who's G.M. and what did he do? Why should the Feds be bailing him/her out? How much is the bail? Will he/she skip?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

leftydee, you're in a cleft stick, and there's no way out.

America could not constrain the Chinese economy now, if it tried. Any sort of trade war with China would simply push up the prices in American stores, where the shelves are stacked with Chinese imports. It is because you can buy this low-priced stuff (for which Chinese employees are paid what would be slave-labour rates in the US) that you have your lovely lifestyles.

And yet you're right. This trend doesn't have to go much farther before America's economy is overtaken by China's. Then by India's. Then you'll find out that America isn't that rich after all, because all its resources have gone into missile systems etc. Maybe then, at last, people will start questioning the wisdom of all those deficit budgets, which seem to have been largely designed to help the very rich become insanely rich.

Getting back to the theme of the thread, the US should be butting out of car production, and concentrating its manufacturing effort on sophisticated high-tech product that yields the greatest added value - thereby exploiting its technological expertise, which still leads the world on many fronts.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: jimmyt
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 06:12 PM

I see absolutely nothing in the constitution that supports the federal government bailing out GM, nor any other company. It is a sad turn of events that some natural phenomena has changed the landscape of the American Industry. It is, however, one of those things.

I worked for a steel mill in Ohio that closed their doors after 50 years because they couldn't stay competitive. Look at Pittsburgh during the late 70s and 80s. Nearly a ghost town with all the mills closed. Life goes on. Pittsburgh now has a robust economy that is no longer steel based.

The Government stepping in to "Help out" has as good of a long term prognosis as introducing Kuzdu to control erosion. I well-meaning idea that simply made things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 05:55 PM

Robo, Jobs are definitly replaced by the Chinese. There are parts and assemblies that are designed and built here that, in the name of cutting costs , are removed from production here and moved to suppliers off-shore. Then they are returned here to be assembled. Joe Lunchbucket's job has been replaced. This makes a good quick savings for Giant Corporation. In the short term everyone is happy except Joe. Joe's lost wages now can't buy goods and services in his community and soon noone can buy from Giant Corporation except possibly the foreigners that have been made wealthy eating Joes lunch. OOPS! Now Giant Foreign Corp owns the market and your grandkids are hoping to get "off shore work " from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 05:52 PM

Yeah, petr, you have struck a chord that I kinds suggested earlier in the thtead... Yeah, the Big Three are all straped with huge pension costs where as Toyota isn't... This gives Toyota one heck of an advantage in having more money for research and developement...

It's not a slam dunk issue as far as I can see... I don't want to see the country loose anymore of it's abilities to make stuff... I think it is short-sighted and could leave us very velnerable down the road...

As for rarelamb's observation that we are better educated that isn't exactly true either... If we were then, yeah, maybe we could get by loosing some of our industrail capabilities.. Kids, especially males, aren't going to college like the once did... More and more folks are entering the work force right outta high school... Maybe another reason why industry is important to our economy...

One thing is fir sure, the US has a pension crisis on its hands...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 03:59 PM

well one of the big problems with GM is the huge pension and medical costs - it has more to do with an aging population.
in a true free enterprise economy the govt wouldnt bail out anyone, and yet you always see tax grants, rebates. etc .

OR you have companies playing states against each other to get the better tax break or pollution break, otherwise they will take their jobs elsewhere - the trouble is they often do later anyway.

as far as China or India not doing much design or research- look again,
lately the trend has been to outsource even the design, while focusing on the marketing.

also look at the number of engineers graduating in CHina and India.
or for that matter Eastern Europe (according to Businessweek that is a huge growth area) and Engineers in Prague have excellent training and work for the equivalent of $5 US /hr.)

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

Important point that "Toyota" often means "Made in USA" and that Quality is not strictly an import thing, it's a 'management, worker, pride in job' thing. GM and Ford have had relatively poor leadership and innovation compared to the imports. I'm not saying American cars are lousy, I'm saying that American cars are not as well designed nor well made nor innovative as their overseas competition. Even the recent American cars, which I've had the ability to drive, are 'nice', but they ain't no Toyotas. It's clear when you drive a Toyota that it's designed by people who really like cars. I drove a Camry cross country last year and it was the best car I've ever had the fortune to spend a lot of time in.

A small but telling tale of the difference in attitudes. About thirty years ago the imported cars started designing keys that were cut on both sides. That meant you could reach into your pocket, pull out your car key, and without looking insert it in the keyhole and turn. The Americans didn't come up with it, and they didn't utilize it, for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 02:58 PM

I'M CHANGING MY NAME TO CHRYSLER (by Tom Paxton)



(copied from the DT)

Oh the price of gas is rising out of sight,
And the dollar is in sorry shape tonight
What the dollar used to get us, now won't buy a head of lettuce
No the economic forecast isn't bright
But amidst the clouds I spot a shining ray,
I can even glimpse a new and better way
And I've devised a plan of action, worked it out to the last fraction
And I'm going into action here today

cho: I am changing my name to Chrysler, I am going down to Washington DC
I will tell some power broker what they did for Iacocca
Would be certainly acceptable to me
I am changing my name to Chrysler, I am headed for that great
receiving line
And when they hand a million grand out I'll be standing with my hand
out
Oh yes I'll get mine

When my creditors are screaming for their dough,
I'll me proud to tell them all where they can go
They won't have to scream and holler, they'll be paid to the last dollar
Where the endless streams of money seem to flow
I'll be glad to tell them all what they can do,
It's a matter of a simple form or two
It's not just renumeration, it's a liberal education,
Aren't you kind of glad that I'm in debt to you

Since the first amphibians crawled out of the slime
We've been struggling in unrelenting grime
We were hardly up and walking, when money started talking,
And it's sad that failure is an awful crime
Well it's been that way for a millenium or two
But now it seems there's a different point of view
If your'e a corporate titanic, and your failure is gigantic,
Down in Congress there's a safety net for you

Still very relevent today. I refuse to buy a vechicle just because it's "made in the USA". It's saftey record, gas comsumption, repair record, comfort, cargo capacity, crash test record & cost are what matter to me, I'm not buying to support thr seller or manufacture. If GM can't compete they need to figure the where's & why's that are causing there failures or just blow out by the side of the road. Are the new bankrupt laws to tough for the gaint corporations & not tough enough for the working class?

What I see is gaint profits for these barons not much goes to R&D & what they can keep is the bottom line. It happen in electronics with the start of Sony. If you make a good product that lasts, back it up, service it properly & sell it for a fair price you'll say in business. The profit margin may be lower but you'll insure repeat & loyal business. Does anyone remember the slant 6 engines that pulled one manufacture out of the gutter. I owned 3, they wouldn't die, 200,000-300,000 was not un common for these fuel efficent cars. The cars would rust out before they'd die, problem was they stopped making them because they lasted to long, go figure. Stop making a good product because you you made it right. In 30 yrs they still can't see the mistake. They are leeches at best.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM

What is meant by an "import" car? Honda, which is made in Ohio? Toyota, which is made in Kentucy? Isuzu -- Indiana? BMW? Mercedes?

They're all made in the USA.

68% of my Honda Civic is made from parts made in the US and the vehicle itself was assembled in Marysville, Ohio. My father-in-law's Intrepid was made in Canada. Which is an imported car?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:42 PM

Left-

China does NOT take away American jobs. China takes away other 3rd world nation jobs. If China dissappeared, production in those industries where China has a comparative advantage in (high degrees of simple labor) would move to other countries that can provide high degrees of simple labor.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:34 PM

Hye, my home town lived and died on the health of GM, and we were just spared the plant closing. Seems particularly stupid (although a great relief) because the plant in my home town mostly made SUVS. I suspect there will be some modestly radical changes taking place there.

I drive a Chevrolet Prism, by the way. The best of both worlds. It's a Toyota built in this country and the logo on the hood says GM instead of Toyota. Other than that, it's a Toyota made here (or parts mostly made oversees. At least the construction of the car created some American jobs.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:30 PM

Yes, actually we do. That is, if you enjoy and want to maintain your lifestyle. If you don't mind being a third world economy then its OK to fall behind the rest of the world. What we stand to lose is our middle class. If you'd be as happy working for survival wages while the wealthy get wealthier then you could say we're on the right road.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

We have 2 new GM cars and love the quality! but I am prejudiced, hate Asian cars.... brrrrr yeeuch, even more the Western copies.

Bale GM out? Sure, but only after folks out here realize that Import is not smart OR trendy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

I'll tell you what happened. Competition. The Japanese manufactuerers have gained marketshare. Gone are the 50% market shares by GM. They build a better mouse trap. Is that so wrong? Do we have to be the best at everything?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

Bobert -

What if US manufacturing goes down the tubes and the US and China get locked into a war?

Of course, we'll buy all our war materiel from China. That way they'll lose our business if they do away with us. An almost perfect plan....

More than 60% of parts in most "US built" autos are from foreign manufacturers now. Sometimes the parts are shipped to the US, and forwarded to foreign plants for assembly - so the assemblies can be labelled "assembled in ... with US parts." "US parts" meaning only "they were in the US for a little while."

Its difficult to know how much of the GM sob story is real and how much is just politics. Ford has announced losses and layoffs of very similar magnitude, but can't make as many headlines because GM beat them to press by a month or so.

I'm still waiting for enough info to tell what's going on.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM

There will be disruptions Bobert. It will create a supply shock with the result that you will have a recession and higher prices. But our economy will get over the shock and return to its potential gdp.

Less than 30% of the US economy is in manufactured goods. We have invested heavily in our people (education) which has resulted in the US having a comparable advantage in services. We may not be the best at low margin goods but we are very good at higher margin items like consulting, design, research and marketing.

What would happen though is that production would not come back to the US. It would goto Indonesia, Mexico etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 12:47 PM

That's a real scarey part of losing our manufacturing base, Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM

Ummmmm, just a thought.... What if US manufacturing goes down the tubes and the US and China get locked into a war???

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 10:16 AM

Proabaly ends up cheaper than not doing so..

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 09:28 AM

Feds let "commercial" Hummers go TAX free for years!

"commercial use" was defined in such a way as to include just about all Hummers.

TOYLET? seriously?

yeah right, how serious ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 09:25 AM

It should not, nor should any company be bailed out by the Government. Let the creative destruction process work.

To the point "Nationalize 'em all, I say!! Show 'em what efficient management can do, by God!!"

The reality is that Toyota and other profitable firms have done exactly that. We do not need the hamfisted government to make the situation worse.

Also, bailing out one firm maintains supply which would have otherwise been stopped. This punishes well run firms by artificially depressing prices.

Some of us need to get out of the national champion mindset and let the people who know the industry go about their business and succeed or fail on their merits.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:44 PM

There was a car produced that was a cooperative effort between Chevrolet and Toyota. My friend Lloyd had one -- he called it a "Toylet".

Seriously.