BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:27 PM

Take a lesson from Britain. The government bailed out Rover (in various incarnations)repeatedly. It didn't save it. GM is failing because it is losing market share. It is losing market share because the customers prefer to buy elsewhere. The imports (including "domestic imports") are gaining market share because they are building cars people prefer to buy.

I don't know if there's been any improvement in the last 7 years, but the last US GM car I had the misfortune to drive in '98(Pontiac Grand Prix) was so far behind the equivalent European/Japanese car in design (underpowered, bad ride, no interior space, poor ergonomics)and manufacture (uneven gaps between panels, boot and bonnet not flush, big gaps in the trim inside, poor fitting carpets, and don't even mention the rattles) I was surprised GM had the nerve to take money off people for it (and even more surprised that anyone would give them money).

Appeals to patriotism and subsidies might drag out the agony, but unless GM can produce a car a well-designed and well built as a Toyota, the customers will continue to buy Toyotas in preference.

BTW if you want to know what happens when the state decides what gets built, look no further than the Trabant. Not a pretty sight.

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:34 PM

Sorry, my memory's failing. The Pontiac was in 2001. '98 was a Ford 350-based compact RV which I loved: something you Americans do really well

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:14 AM

" ... we are very good at higher margin items like consulting, design, research and marketing."

The people who make decisions as to what services should be used in these areas will be perfectly ready to send these jobs offshore as soon as it becomes profitable.

~~~

Telecom sent my IT job to India.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:07 AM

I think the labor unions, who ran GM and US industry in general into the ground, should bail out GM.

JH

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:26 AM

Lack of universal health care and the short-sighted refusal to get serious about gas-guzzling is what is dooming US auto manufacturing, not the unions.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:22 PM

I don't know if you're an American or not Guest Jimmy but if you are you'd be working for fish heads and potatoes had it not been for labor unions, whether you're in a union or not. The goodness of managment's heart never would have produced a middle class. The greed in their hearts is now what causes them to rape pension funds and trade your future for a little more profit. Unions have forced some redistribution in wealth and that's healthy. The economies that now are busy are the ones where there is gross poverty.

Robomatic, I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it's reality. Yes, the USAs greatest strength is our creativity and inventiveness. There is still a need for production type work. Unionized production work is what opens the door to the middle class for those of us that are, maybe, not so creative or inventive. If all we produce is high tech ideas, what do we do with the less clever amongst us?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:50 PM

Lefty:

If you don't agree with the unions you get cement shoes for a one way skin diving trip. Now pay the greedy bastards their dues.

And dont for get the firemen, coal shovelers on those diesel trains. Featherbedding it is called.

UNION CORRUPTION UPDATE http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU3/05_01_12.htm OPERATING ENGINEERS (IUOE)
Kickbacks Charges Brought Against New York City School Custodians

Labor Unions Aggravate Inflation by Lowering Wages http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=298 It is commonly believed that labor unions generate inflation by increasing the wages of workers. This is not the case. Labor union activities do aggravate inflation, but they do it by reducing the real wages received by workers, not by increasing them. An understanding of why this is true requires, first of all, a brief explanation of the cause of inflation.

Jimmy H.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:44 AM

LOL, Jimmy...

Like Ha-friggin'-ha....

Same old Republican crapola that'[s been going on since FDR...

LIke I said, LOL....

Haha...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

Jimmy is Mr T's other signin!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Grab
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:48 AM

Lefdee, unions had a part to play, way back when. Then they got too powerful and screwed everything up by becoming a protection racket (a pattern repeated in most countries with powerful unions - US, UK and France are prime examples). Anyone who reckons Jimmy Hoffa was Mother Teresa needs their head read.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:03 PM

There were excellent reasons for the unions coming into being and they did a lot of good both socially and for big business, though big business might tend to deny it. Unfortunately as I might have mentioned earlier, there is blame to go around. Bad management, designs for cars that are not as good as the competition, bad ethics on the part of overpaid executives, and featherbedding on the part of unions, along with poor priorities on sensing the overall position of labor in the modern world becoming a commodity that can be shopped around the world.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm saying that's the way it is and it's time to face reality.

Leftydee, I sympathize with your position without agreeing with it. As the song goes (Austin Lounge Lizards): "Life is hard. It's even harder when you're dumb." By which I mean we are all living in a world that has plenty of well trained workers, both blue and white collar. We are all finding it more competitive to stay head above water. This means that those on fixed incomes, those who insist on welfare of one kind or another, are feeling the stress.

I suggest we equalize the stress, by promoting unionization abroad, and by putting executive jobs up on the internet along with all the rest. Why pay some fat yank to manage a multi-national when you can find good management in Beirut, Baluchistan, or Bombay?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: leftydee
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM

I agree , Robo, unionize the world. That would make for fair wages and opportunities. If the Chinese or Indonesians or whomever were paid fair wages( and not being taken advantage of by corporate America) there would be no issue of out sourcing. It would be as affordable to keep your product at home.

Grab, Ive belonged to two Unions in my time, the IBEW and the UAW. yes, some unions have a pattern of corruption just like every other organization that I'm aware of, but the ones I have belonged to fought to provide me with a good wage, reasonable hours, health benefits, on the job safety and training. My overall quality of life was enhanced by these unions. Don't believe the lies that Big Biz guys tell you about unions. There is a reason they don't like them....they're not allowed to abuse workers at their whim.

Jimmy H, your premise is too ridiculous to even respond to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:53 PM

I work in electricity field, though not a union member I have great respect for the IBEW to this day. But the Teamsters? UAW I know very little about.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Feds Bail Out G.M.???
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM

No, it would do no good whatsoever, as proved by past experience they would just be throwing away good money after bad. The company has to be competitive and produce something that will sell, if it cannot do either then it should go.

I have only ever been involved with two Unions, one was very ineffectual adopting a "let sleeping dogs lie" approach to almost every situation. The other was set up to look after a very special group of workers, the guy who set this up was basically not the slightest bit interested in those he was supposed to represent but used grievences to stir up the shit, which got him media coverage, which was what he needed to launch his political career as a hard-line socialist. Between the two through their efforts, or lack thereoff, the industry collapsed nationally to the point of extinction.