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PRS at it again!!

GUEST,anon 23 Dec 05 - 10:10 AM
Peace 22 Dec 05 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,anon 22 Dec 05 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,anon 22 Dec 05 - 10:27 AM
folktheatre 22 Dec 05 - 09:54 AM
folktheatre 22 Dec 05 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,anon 22 Dec 05 - 09:52 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,anon 22 Dec 05 - 09:09 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Beezzz 22 Dec 05 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,anon 22 Dec 05 - 06:58 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,BazT 22 Dec 05 - 05:39 AM
woodsie 22 Dec 05 - 05:14 AM
treewind 22 Dec 05 - 05:12 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 05:11 AM
woodsie 22 Dec 05 - 04:24 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 05 - 04:17 AM
woodsie 22 Dec 05 - 03:51 AM
The Shambles 21 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM
BB 20 Dec 05 - 02:43 PM
PennyBlack 20 Dec 05 - 01:57 PM
treewind 20 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM
folktheatre 20 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM
Lancashire Lad 20 Dec 05 - 11:10 AM
folktheatre 20 Dec 05 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,anon 20 Dec 05 - 11:02 AM
folktheatre 20 Dec 05 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,anon 20 Dec 05 - 07:57 AM
s&r 20 Dec 05 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,anon 20 Dec 05 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Folk club organiser 20 Dec 05 - 06:07 AM
fiddler 20 Dec 05 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,anon 19 Dec 05 - 03:20 PM
The Shambles 19 Dec 05 - 11:56 AM
The Shambles 19 Dec 05 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,anon 19 Dec 05 - 10:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 05 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,chris 19 Dec 05 - 09:14 AM
The Shambles 18 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM
s&r 18 Dec 05 - 05:32 AM
The Shambles 18 Dec 05 - 04:16 AM
treewind 18 Dec 05 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Top Cat 18 Dec 05 - 01:52 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 05 - 07:30 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM
Mo the caller 17 Dec 05 - 04:13 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM
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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:10 AM

If people are downloading from illegal file-sharing sites, then obviously the writers receive nothing. From I-tunes or any other legal site, the writers get their due. There is actually a disagreement at the moment between i-tunes and other sites who argue that the musicians are getting too much!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:10 PM

My question is a bit more basic than that. How many folks have downloaded music from the internet--music from which the writers and performers will not receive royalties?!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:07 PM

I'm serious, what would Guthrie have thought of all this?

"This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin' it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ours, cause we don't give a darn. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do."

Woody Guthrie


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 10:27 AM

My question is, what would Woody Guthrie have thought?


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:54 AM

Aw bum sorry didn't mean to post that! Duh. I agree with shambles I mean! How did I do that..... How embarassing.....


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:53 AM

"their music *is* their livelihood, whereas for you it's bunce on top of your livelihood." I agree!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:52 AM

well, we can all but try. Thats what people are there for.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:50 AM

Right now all we have to do is to get people power (whoever they may be) to sort out the Licensing Act for us.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:09 AM

Come on, Beezzz. Its been sorted out through people power... I'm sure they'll learn from this to think about the exact scenario before licensing in future.

Also, my friend who called was informed that all shops would receive a full refund.

I think, as I mentioned before, that their interpretation of the law was incorrect, but this has now been rectified.

Also, I agree with the above statement that premieses with unpaid performers should not be licensed in the same way as premises with paid or professional performers.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:34 AM

The following was posted on uk.music.folk

"Hobgoblin Music" wrote in message news:seuzpKA7MoqDFwji@hobgoblin.co.uk...

Had this from the Music Industries Association today:
"Following a week of negotiations.....I am delighted to inform you that demonstrating an instrument or a
customer trying one WILL NOT (now) require a license."

Good news!

Nicola

ENDS


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,Beezzz
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 08:31 AM

I've just read through this thread with a feeling of disgust at the actions of the PRS.

Sorry anon, I have to disagree about 'Common sense prevails'. Ending the dubious practice of stretching the definition of 'Performance' to this level, just because the press have picked up on it, is not common sense. It's more a matter making a hasty retreat now they've had a shot up the a**e and got egg on their face. Common sense, would have been to avoid going down this route in the first place. I trust that all the music shops that have paid up in the past can expect a full refund! Yeah, right!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:58 AM

I've just found out PRS have stopped charging music shops for demonstration music. A friend of mine is a member and called up to complain - it seems they've changed their tune after the press picked it up.

Common sense prevails!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM

Do PRS really want to encourage the public to by their instruments and spares online?

They manage to do this and even their inventive minds would struggle with a means of extracting performance fees from online music shops.

I would imagine that many high street music shops already find it hard to compete with online shops. Many of course also sell online but it would be a sad day if there were no music shop windows for aspiring youngsters to press their nose up against.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:22 AM

Keith Gilbert, PRS Performance Sales Director said: "Music shops pay like everyone else, but get a 30 per cent discount if their only music use is for demonstration purposes."

Perhaps Mr Gilbert could explain which it is - demonstration purposes or performance? He appear to what it both ways.

I am sure he would not offer his generous 30% discount on a venue who claimed their entertainment was not performance but for demonstration purposes.

Why is the PRS so-called? Why is it not called the Demonstration Purposes Society?

The starting point for all of these things is the performance of entertainment. Every damn fool knows that the starting point to this defines itself as someone paying someone else to perform to an audience.

All of these problems to activities that are not this - occur because this common sense definition is ignored by those who are empowered to enforce these things and who try to stretch these definitions - whatever the effect of this may be. In the case of organisations like PRS - to the long-term damage of the very thing they are supposed to be protecting.

A needless try-out to squeeze music shops where there clearly is no performance involved could result in a situation where instrument makers have no outlets and established performers will not be able to (cheaply) obtain the instruments they need to ply their trade. Less instruments and less shops means less opportunities for people to get started and all of this will be bad news for PRS - who will have less members as result.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,BazT
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:39 AM

Woodsie, I'm confused about this PRS set-list thing. If someone from the PRS comes to our pub to list the songs played, she's need a pretty encyclopaedic knowledge of music from all genres in order to corectly identify the set list. What's to stop me playing something by some fairly obscure artist, and if asked about its orgins, saying saomething like, "oh, I don't know where that one comes from - its something my old Uncle Charlie used to sing, so I guess it's traditional, or maybe he wrote it himself...."


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: woodsie
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:14 AM

I agree with you Anhata it is robbery.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: treewind
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:12 AM

The story about the rate reduction is very nice but it doesn't alter the fact that trying out an instrument in a shop IS NOT A PERFORMANCE, unless the PRS can prove that folks come into the shop for the purpose of listening to musicians trying out instruments.

A 30% reduction on stealing money you're not entitled to has no merit.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:11 AM

The difference is that the utility companies will have to give the money back if they have over-estimated - without to onus being upon you.

PRS seem to work like a estimated tax demand - it is up to you to prove to them that their demand is wrong. You can see why such an approach is attractive and I am sure that many other bodies would like to work like this.

It is clear from the 30% discount PRS offer to any music shop who complies with their demand that they will try and take any cut of anything rather than have nothing at all.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: woodsie
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:24 AM

I have been told that the PRS charge is the same as an "estimated" bill that the gas people send out. Clubs can send their own weekly/monthly returns to get an amended bill!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:17 AM

If you ensured that it was ALL non-copyright material on this night - you should be able to continue without a PRS licence at all. For under these circumstances I can't see they would have a valid claim.

They would make the assumption that possibly some of their material might be played at other times and try to levy some fee,I am sure - but perhaps it should be up to them to visit and charge only for what they do hear played rather than make any charge based on an assumption of some guilt?


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: woodsie
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:51 AM

Further to my earlier comment about the woman from PRS attending our session in Greenwich. I have now got some more info.The management of the building where the session is held, have been paying a PRS annual fee of £800. During her visit she compiled a list of titles performed. Lots of stuff was either traditional or self penned. What I didn't know was that this list was a random sample which has been averaged out over 12 months to come up with a fair assessment. The new PRS charge is now only £150. So I would advise clubs to invite PRS to attend and ensure that all traditional stuff is played that night.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM

http://www.macclesfield-express.co.uk/news/s/207/207169_its_a_fiddle.html

The following posted on uk.music.folk.

Here's the local paper article: Published: 14th December 2005
by the Macclesfield Express. (It is likely that this is where the Daily
Telegraph got it from initially - available on-line.)

IT¹S A FIDDLE!

Music shop boss Steve Kowalski has been told he will have to pay to play if
his customers want to try out his instruments before they buy. And that, he
says, is a fiddle.

The Performing Rights Society claims he needs a licence if he, or any of his
punters, want to "have a go" on anything from a harmonica to a harpsichord
or castanets to clarinets. And officers have told him that if he doesn¹t
stump up cash to the tune of £114 he will have to face the music.

But Steve, 53, who is gob-smacked by the order, said: "They can go whistle!"
He says he wants the threat removing ­ no strings attached! Talking from
his shop, the well-established Jones Music on Charlotte Street in
Macclesfield, he asked: "Has anyone used their common sense here?"

Steve, who took over the 78-year-old established business a year ago,
received a call out of the blue from PRS who asked if he or his customers
tried out musical instruments. He said: "I thought, what a daft question,
of course we do."

When he said they did, they told him that if anyone played a riff ­ an
identifiable piece of music ­ he was in breach of copyright and was breaking
the law. "They said it constituted a public performance!" he gasped. "I
thought someone was winding me up.

"I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. It means that
customers will either have to try something out without the piece sounding
melodious or they will have to buy it untried. "I am certainly not going to
pay for a licence. I am making a stand for all musical instrument shops who
are just going about their business."

When Steve, who lives in Macclesfield with partner Sally, asked PRS what
they were going to do about it, they told him they would send in their
copyright protection squad. "I could tell that meant trouble," he said.

Steve, who himself plays lead guitar in a band, ironically called "Rough
Trade", said the cost of the licence was also determined by the size of the
shop and since Jones Music was 1,500 square feet he would be in for a £114
bill. "It¹s not the money," he said. "It is the principle. I don¹t intend
to rock over this one."

Keith Gilbert, PRS Performance Sales Director said: "Music shops pay like
everyone else, but get a 30 per cent discount if their only music use is for
demonstration purposes." "Royalties are crucial ­ they keep songwriters and
musicians writing more music. And royalties are paid by everyone that plays
music in public.

Pat Hills


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: BB
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:43 PM

Folktheatre, please don't think I'm having a go at you, but surely if you are earning money from other people's work, even if it's only £30, it would be reasonable that the person who provided the material from their hard work should benefit, even if only in a small way, either from you or the person employing you? I don't see that the fact that it isn't your 'real' job makes that any less the case - in fact, perhaps more so, as to Bert Jansch or whoever it may well be their 'real' job, i.e. their music *is* their livelihood, whereas for you it's bunce on top of your livelihood.

Like Anahata, I would be far happier if PRS were only taking money for redistribution to their members in situations where musicians are being paid, and where they are not, i.e. floor performers in a club or festival or those taking part in a session, no money should be payable to PRS. It is certainly true that songs are spread through those very performers, and then may be taken up by 'professional' performers, in which case the writer benefits through that person's gigs, recording, etc.

And yes, I would like to see PRS members take responsibility for the way that PRS acts on their behalf, and try to do something about this situation.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: PennyBlack
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:57 PM

In theory, if you record your own compositions on CDR and register it with MCPS, they should be taking it away with one hand and giving it all back with the other. If some of your material was written by someone else and in copyright and that author is registered with MCPS, they'll get their share too. I think that's how it's supposed to work

Only if you're registered with PRS as well!

All the time we've been producing CDRs for sale we have always registered with MCPS after all if we're making money from someones ability and hard work, surely they're entitle to be recompensed?

I know of several producers of CDRS, who do so for Artists and charge for doing so, fail to comply with the law and do the run without a certificate - to me this is totally dishonest and robbing a fellow musician.

I would also urge all songwriters to register with PRS/MCPS.

PB


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: treewind
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM

Re MCPS, a bit of historical background:

MCPS exists to make sure that artists and authors get royalties from the sales of CDs. A record company selling CDs must therefore register each pressing run (actually it's done by the pressing plant) with the MCPS, which gives the MCPS an exact tally of how many were made and (hopefully) sold so they know what royalties are due.

They never bothered about CDR media initially because CDRs were expensive and unreliable and took a long time to burn. Theye were usually demos or specialist short runs. For a few years now it's been easy to produce reliable CDRs cheaply and fast in quantities of hundreds, and it's therefore possible for a record label to knock out lots of CDRs and sell them in the shops, not keeping any accounts and not paying royalties to the artists who made the recordings, and the there are some clear indications that at least one unscpupulous record company has done this, to the detriment of some well respected folk arstists.

Obviously if somebody makes a few CDRs of their music at home and sells them to their friends or at gigs then MCPS aren't likely to be bothered, (or even to know), but there are good reasons why they should want to know about CDR production generally in case it is running to thousands and somebody's being ripped off.

In theory, if you record your own compositions on CDR and register it with MCPS, they should be taking it away with one hand and giving it all back with the other. If some of your material was written by someone else and in copyright and that author is registered with MCPS, they'll get their share too. I think that's how it's supposed to work.

My guess is that MCPS will only bother with anyone making enough CDRs to be selling them through retailers.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: folktheatre
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM

Or just keep it quiet. Shhh!

Surely if you're doing it for fun and it isn't your job it ain't fair that they grab money off you for producing you own CDs. Why should they care? Is there a big market there or something? Sounds daft. I'm leaving this thread before I get to angry! haha.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:10 AM

If what I heard from a live venue owner is still true, the PRS were trying to make it the responsibility of organizers to submit accredited set lists from live gigs at one point. If that is the case, how on earth is an organizer meant to know if a song is played in the "trad" arrangement or the "trad / arr smith" version?

Additionally, I believe that the MCPS is now also considering monitoring artist sales of self produced CDs (usually CDRs). If this IS the case, artists will have to keep damn good records of what they press themselves if they are covering songs by MCPS (and affiliated) members.

LL


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: folktheatre
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:09 AM

I meant I was the person organising the event and playing at it.

Flippin' 'eck! I'm sorry I didn't realise it was such a touchy area. I don't know much, I just didn't like what I'd heard. Can't you tell PRS that you have a folk night then still perform copyrighted music? They wouldn't even know and there would be a fee incurred if they did. Ah, I don't know. By the way, this is my first post on the topic so you don't have to say that 'again, you have the got the wrong end of the stick' stuff.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:02 AM

Again, you have got the wrong end of the stick.

PRS charge premises that hold live events, as far as I'm aware do not charge musicians. As far as the law is concerned, it is the person responsible for the premises who needs to pay for the public performance.

Also, Bert Jansch and others pass over their rights to PRS to collect royalties on their behalf, otherwise any time a premises played a song it would have to ask the individual composer each time. So royalty collection societies are not 'all-bearing super powers', but societies working on behalf of musicians.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: folktheatre
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:34 AM

Can't stand the thought of there being some all-bearing super power that has the rights and influence over all performance. If I play a Bert Jansch composition in my set and get £30 for playing that night then had to pay Bert for the opportunity I'd be kinda deflated. Especially as it's not even my 'real' job. There's lots of different factors in this situation that a single statement cannot contend with. If the PRS wanted to charge me for a small event they'd have to drag me kickin' and screamin'. I dunno. Has anyone here ever had real trouble with them about anything whereby it's resulted in court action?

Mike.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:57 AM

I actually disagree with that. It is their 'interpretation' that has the copyright, not the actual song. So as long as you didn't do 'Canadee-I-O' the same way Dylan did it, you would be alright.

It would also be incredibly difficult to prove that people were playing the exact versions.

The wonder of copyright law...


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: s&r
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:35 AM

Sorry, anon. Many traditional songs/tunes have been claimed by a whole raft of performers/writers.

Stu


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:32 AM

Good points, but what you need to remember is that PRS can only licence for copyright music. If the music is not copyright, then they cannot licence for it.

For example, if you have a folk club where all the music played is traditional, then you do not require the licence. But, as I'm sure you'll understand, if people start playing covers then the writers deserve the royalty.

I do think folk clubs in particular do get a raw deal, but it really is up to the members to bring this up with PRS, otherwise they won't know that people feel hard done by.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,Folk club organiser
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:07 AM

There has to come a point when sensibility comes into it.

Most folk club organisers run them for love, not profit. All these additonal costs will force clubs to close.

I know that performers should get there dues.

However, when we are trying to make ends meet and spend a lot of our free time to provide a form of entertainment for the good of the locals and keep the tradition of folk alive, additional costs only help to make us want to stop.

Less venues, less publicity for the performers.

You have a a choice performers. Collect the small amount from PRS if anything, or look at things on a more open basis.

Stop PRS hitting the folk clubs. We are the ones who give you the chance to entertain the public, without us, you can't.

The world is going bonkers.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: fiddler
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:42 AM

You see you guys understand this!

I tried to book a hall for my 50th - Music by a few mates of mine - who shall be nameless - all traditional stuff arranged by them.

The Hall insisted on a £50 PRS fee irrespective of this as the PRS had told them they had to pay to have live music there at all!

A good healthy debate is needed - and PRS like all such bodies need to recognise the limits of what is logical practical and accepatable and also to protect their members. I bet this little one will cost them more than they will ever make unless they establish a presedent and get every music shop in the UK to register and pay.

Andy


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:20 PM

Again, The act that you are quoting (The Licensing Act 2003), has nothing to do with copyright. I understand that it may be used as a guide by societies when licensing for the public performance of music... But this does not change my argument; as the law stands, it is very unclear on certain situations, hence the dispute. I believe that the blame should not be entirely on PRS, as the law (1998) is so unclear.

Also, the details you gave above are still very unclear - what can be deemed 'a performance of live music' (2e) - the whole song?, 1 minute?, 2 seconds? two bars?

This is the problem...

Of course the issue should be addressed, and I'm sure it will be, after articles appearing in the press. At the end of the day, royalty collection societies throughout the world work on behalf of their members, so, as you say, they should be consulted.

Also, in regards to merging all licences into one - I think this would be an ideal situation, but from what I have read, it will be very difficult to do this, as they have some fundamental differences. One example is the way they charge a premises (PPL & PRS), one can only dream.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:56 AM

Schedule 1

Entertainment

2 (i) The descriptions of entertainment are-

(a) a performance of a play
(b) an exhibition of a film
(c) an indoor sporting event
(d) a boxing or wrestling entertainment
(e) a performance of live music
(f) any playing of recorded music
(g) a performance of dance
(h) entertainment of a similar description to that falling within paragraph (e), (f) or (g),

where the entertainment takes place in the presence of an audience and is provided for the purpose, or for purposes which include the purpose. of entertaining that audience.

(2) Any reference in sub-paragraph (1) to an audience includes reference to spectators.

(3) This paragraph is subject to Part 3 of this Schedule (interpetation).


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:53 AM

The act does not specify what is considered a 'public performance', in that it does not say how many people are required to make a performance public. Nor does it highlight the length of time a piece of music has to be played for.

If this Act does not specify to PRS what is considered a 'public performance' perhaps reference should be made to and PRS members now guided by the new legislation that does deal with what is now the performance of Regulated Entertainment and which does specify what this is - in The Licensing Act 2003?


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:58 AM

I think a lot of people are getting the wrong end of the stick here. Firstly, PRS licence for the public performance of music as layed out in the 1988 Copyright, designs & patents act.

The act does not specify what is considered a 'public performance', in that it does not say how many people are required to make a performance public. Nor does it highlight the length of time a piece of music has to be played for.

For example, if Jimmy Page walked into a unlicensed music shop where someone was playing 'Stairway...' on guitar, he could (under the aforementioned act) sue the shop owner, (as it is the person responsible for the premises).

I feel that although this is a very difficult situation, (and my personal belief is that the music shops should not require a licence for someone trying out a guitar, etc), the act from which PRS works is not the most detailed, hence these situations.

On another note, I do feel that traditional musicians (as always) are often overlooked by collection societies and perhaps a body should be set up to address this...


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:53 AM

I wish they had the sense to agree with you Chris. Perhaps their members should be lobbied to see what they think of the idea.

The result might shake the PRS.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:14 AM

If you play a song/tune, by a known composer, in a session doesn't this constitute some free advertising for the song/tune composer and therefore increase the likelyhood of someone hearing said tune, liking it and spending money on composers CD etc. Shouldn't the PRS see sessions in this light-as long term free advertising.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/

The following definition of performance - from the above site.


Any performance of copyright music, whether live or recorded, that takes place outside the home is regarded as a public performance and will usually require a licence from PRS. Licences are usually issued to the owner of the premises where the music is being performed.

I think the rather tenuous nature of the PRS claim that music shops are in any shape or form involved in a performance of copyright music is reflected in the 30% discount that PRS is so generously offering them.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: s&r
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 05:32 AM

Thanks Shambles for the link to the site. It's worth reading the legal disclaimer on the site which is quite frightening

Stu


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 04:16 AM

I think this way of ensuring that individuals get what they are entitled to is the best way - but it is time-consuming.

From the organisation's point of view - you can see the attractions of having a catch-all blanket licence.

And perhaps from everyone else's point of view - see the dangers of an approach where the implication is that no music can take place without this licence?

If this move to insist that all retail music shops need PRS/PPL/MCPS type licences is to be a general one - the effect is hardly likely to result in good publicity for PRS and its members and the increased financial burden is not really going to do these music shops or the general interests of music making any good.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: treewind
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 04:10 AM

GUEST said:
The trouble is the poor old composer doesn't usally get the royaly it's swallowed up in the machine - only the rich artis get richer!

There was a time a few years ago when this was true. The PRS were very slack about small payments like folk performances, but they got into big trouble over this and their system seems to cope with the small stuff now.

If the PRS form is filled in, and the writers mentioned are PRS members, it doesn't get lost in the system - the PRS pays up.

What's more likely in many cases is either the venue doesn't send in a PRS form, or there are songwriters involved who aren't PRS members, in which case they don't get anyting.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST,Top Cat
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 01:52 AM

Until recently I presented a music programme on BBC local radio for an hour every month. I made a point of playing original tracks by artists who deserved the PRS payment. Filling in all the forms was a chore but as I wasn't paid by the Beeb for presenting the show I at least had the satisfaction of knowing artists I respected were getting a few quid.


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:30 PM

http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

The trouble is the poor old composer doesn't usally get the royaly it's swallowed up in the machine - only the rich artis get richer!


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: Mo the caller
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 04:13 PM

Our dance club pays (through EFDSS) a license fee to play recorded music, and I have to fill in a form stating ever track of every recording used.
What a chore.
Some tapes have no catalogue numbers on them. Some are , e.e. American.
Do I still need to fill them in.
how does anyone get any money out of this?


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Subject: RE: PRS at it again!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM

We should all go into our local music store play a tune by George Papavgeris, and walk out without buying the instrument. We must however tell the music shop the name, and the composer of the tune we played, so that the composer of the said tune/song will receive his well earned royalties.
Giok ☺


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