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ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee

DigiTrad:
Now I will tell you "busters"
THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
THE SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Drums (Peter LaFarge) (1)
Peter LaFarge (20)


Gene 18 Jan 99 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 04:40 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 04:50 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 05:19 PM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 16 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Phil D.Conch 18 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM
Stewart 18 Dec 16 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 06:11 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW^^
From: Gene
Date: 18 Jan 99 - 02:44 PM

AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW
Recorded by Johnny Cash
Writer: Peter La Farge

CHORUS
As long [as long] as the moon [as the moon] shall rise
[As the moon shall rise]
As long [as long] as the rivers [as the rivers] flow
[As the rivers flow]
As long as the sun will shine
As long [as long] as the grass shall grow.

The Senecas are an Indian tribe
Of the Iroquois nation
Down on the New York-Pennsylvania line
You'll find their reservation
After the U.S. Revolution
Cornplanter was their chief
He told the tribe these men they could trust
That was his true belief.

He went down to Independence Hall
And there a treaty signed
That promised peace with the U.S.A.
And Indian rights combined
George Washington gave his signature
The government gave its hand
They said that now and forevermore
That this was Indian land.

CHORUS

On the Seneca Reservation
There is much sadness now
Washington's treaty has been broken
And there is no hope - nohow
Across the Allegheny River
They're throwing up a dam
It will flood the Indian country
A proud day for Uncle Sam.

It has broke the ancient treaty
With a politician's grin
It will drown the Indian graveyard
Cornplanter can you swim?
The earth is smothered
To the Seneca's - they're trampling sacred ground
Changed the mint-green earth to black mud flats
As honor hobbles down.

CHORUS

The Iroquois Indians used to rule
From Canada, way south
But no one fears the Indians now
And smiles - the liar's mouth
The Senecas hired an expert
To picture another site
But the great, good army engineers
Said that he had no right.

Altho he showed them another plan
And showed them another way
They laughed in his face and said no deal
Kinzua Dam is here to stay
Congress turned the Indians down
Brushed off the Indians plea
So the Senecas have renamed the dam
They call it - Lake Perfidy

CHORUS

Washington, Adams and Kennedy
Now hear their pledges ring
The treaties are safe - we'll keep our word
But what is that gurgling?
It's the backwater from Perfidy Lake
It's rising all the time
Over the homes and over the fields
And over the promises - signed.

No boats will sail on Lake Perfidy
In winter - it will fill
In summer - it will be a swamp
And all the fish - will kill
But the government of the U.S.A.
Has corrected George's vow
The father of our country must be wrong
What's an Indian, anyhow?

As long [as long] as the moon [as the moon] shall rise
[As the moon shall rise]
Look Up!
As long [as long] as the rivers [as the rivers] flow
[As the rivers flow]
Are you thirsty?
As long as the sun will shine!
My brother, are you warm?
As long [as long] as the grass shall grow.

SOURCE:
Johnny Cash-Bitter Tears/Columbia CL-2248
^^

Johnny Cash Studio Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwhlI5Rj0-U

Johnny Cash live performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQq0dw7rmtc

Gillian Welch & Dave Rawlings Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98VnKORRpk


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Subject: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:40 PM

"As long as the grass shall grow and rivers flow" and similar language was used in reference to Indian treaties made by the U.S. Government. I have not been able to find this language in any of the treaties I have read, but popular writing of the time does use the language.


Thread #41907   Message #606906
Posted By: Joe Offer
09-Dec-01 - 07:14 PM
Thread Name: Lyr Req: Talking Kinzua Dam
Subject: Lyr: SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)^^

Gene posted the Johnny Cash version of this song a couple of years ago, but I think this may be closer to the original. I guess it's not the song requested, but it's certainly related.
-Joe Offer-



THE SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)
(PETER LAFARGE)

The Senecas are an Indian Tribe of the Iroquois nation,
Down on the New York-Pennsylvania line, you'll find their reservation.
After the U. S. revolution, Cornplanter was a chief;
He told the tribe these men they could trust, that was his true belief.
He went down to Independence Hall, and there a treaty signed,
That promised peace with the USA, and Indian rights combined.
George Washington gave his signature, the Government gave its hand;
They said that now and forever more this was Indian land.

CHORUS: As long as the moon shall rise,
As long as the rivers flow,
As long as the sun will shine,
As long as the grass shall grow.

On the Seneca reservation, there is much sadness now;
Washington's treaty has been broken, and there is no hope, no how.
Across the Allegheny River, they're trowing up a dam;
It will flood the Indian country, a proud day for Uncle Sam.
It has broke the ancient treaty with a politician's grin;
It will drown the Indian graveyards -- Cornplanter, can you swim?
The earth is mother to the Senecas; they're trampling sacred ground,
Change the mint-green earth to black mud flats, as honor hobbles down...

The Iroquois Indians used to rule from Canada way south;
But no one fears the Indians now, and smiles the liar's mouth.
The Senecas hired an expert to figure another site;
But the great good Army engineers said that he had no right.
Although he showed them another plan, and showed them another way,
They laughed in his face and said, "No deal, Kinzua dam is here to stay."
Congress turned the Indian down, brushed off the Indians' plea;
So the Senecas have renamed the dam, they call it "Lake Perfidy."

Washington, Adams, and Kennedy, now hear their pledges ring,
"The treaties are safe, we'll keep our word," but what is that gurgling?
It's the backwater from Perfidy Lake, it's rising all the time,
Over the homes and over the fields, over the promises fine.
No boats will sail on Lake Perfidy, in winter it will fill;
In summer it will be a swamp, and all the fish will kill.
But the Government of the USA has corrected George's vow.
The Father of Our Country must be wrong -- what's an Indian, anyhow?
^^

This song comes from the early 1960's. I found it here (click)


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Subject: ADD: The Indian Prayer (Indianee)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:50 PM

There's another song on this theme in the Rise Again Songbook. It's called by various names, and the lyrics vary greatly from one recording to the next. In the songbook, we tried to honor the original Mousaa version while including the best of the other versions. I can't find my transcription of the Mousaa version. A link to his performance is below. Feel free to transcribe it and post it here.

Here's the version from the Emma's Revolution Website:

THE INDIAN PRAYER (INDIANEE)
©1974 Victor Roland Mousaa
Tom Pacheco
Loesser Music

As long as the sun shall glow
As long as the stream shall flow
As long as the wind shall blow
As long as the grass shall grow
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

As long as the bird shall sing
As long as the deer shall spring
As long as the whale's swimming
As long as their lives shall be
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

As long as the baby's small
As long as our children grow tall
As long as our elder's recall
As long as this earth shall call
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

Source: http://www.emmasrevolution.com/listen/album/hands/2-indanee/


Performance by Roland Mousaa (lyrics are somewhat different): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5AkdKadKiA

Richie Havens performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TME9VWLovCA


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 05:19 PM

The LaFarge song indicates that George Washington signed a treaty with the Seneca Nation with language similar to "as long as the grass shall grow and rivers flow." I understand similar language was used in the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1851, and the Treaty of Medicine Lodge with the Sioux in 1867. I haven't been able to find texts of these and other treaties with this language. Can anybody find them?
-Joe-

Here's the Treaty of Fort Laramie

Here's a whole library of Indian treaties: http://digital.library.okstate.edu/KAPPLeR/Vol2/toc.htm

It would be nice to be able to document original sources of this "grass shall grow and rivers flow" language. I see references to it all over, but no original sources. Could this be an early example of "false news"? The Indian treaties I've read sound like treaties - no poetic language in them.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 09:15 AM

Any historians here?


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil D.Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM

Have you located the phrase in any Indian treaties yet?

I thought it came from Cooper's Littlepage series which was more about Euro-American farm leases in the Hudson Valley. I don't think he ever used it in relation to the local tribes/treaties (???)


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: Stewart
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:27 PM

Here's another related song

AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW
by Twilo Scofield, 1977
Sung by Sally and John Ashford
From a live "Apple Jam" concert in Olympia, WA on Sept. 9th, 1978

As long as the sun will shine
As long as the rivers may flow
As long as the moon will rise
And as long as the grass shall grow

We first knew you as the feeble tree
That needed a place to grow
We could have trod you under our feet
But we taught you the ways that we know

Good words and broken promises
You gave us and we trusted you   
You came to live in peace you said
And that's all that we wanted too

As long as the sun will shine…

You lit our lodges for your campfires
In the ashes left dust and blood
We thought half our land would satisfy you
But we found out that it never would

You left us like birds with broken wings
All scattered like stones on the ground
But in silent fields and pathless woods
Our dreams and our spirits are found

As long as the sun will shine…

For we have known when the forests were free
And the wind spirits roamed our land
And everything that we needed for life
We took with a gentle hand

Now the sky is round and the earth is round
And the sun and the stars and the moon
The seasons all move in a circle too
And our spring will come again soon

As long as the sun will shine…

From Washington Songs and Lore – Linda Allen, p.119: "Twilo Scofield wrote 'As Long As The Grass Shall Grow' in 1977 after reading Touch the Earth by T. C. McLuhan. The book contains speeches given by Native American tribal leaders. The verses are paraphrased from speeches given by Nez Perce Chief Joseph, Red Jacket of the Seneca, Ten Bears of the Comanche, Seattle of the Duwamish, and Dan George, hereditary chief of the Coast Salish, among others." Twilo Scofield, the granddaughter of an Oregon homesteader, a teacher of folklore, musician and author, lived in Eugene, OR.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:29 PM

Exact quote is a bit different:

"...and I sincerely hope this neck of the land will continue to go by its old appellation as long as the House of Hanover shall sit on the throne of these realms; or as long as water shall run and grass shall grow."

[Satanstoe; from the Littlepage Manuscripts, A Tale of the Colony, Cooper, James Fenimore, (New York: Burgess, Stringer, 1845, p.12)]


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM

"Each tribe or band shall have the right to posses, occupy, and use the reserve allotted to it, as long as grass shall grow and water run, and the reserves shall be their own property like their horses and cattle."*

Article 5 of the Confederate States of America Treaty with the Comanches and Other Tribes and Bands, 12 August 1861.

*The expression "so long as grass shall grow and water run" appears in eight out of nine Confederate States treaties with these tribes: it is absent from the text of the Treaty with the Cherokees.

http://treatiesportal.unl.edu/csaindiantreaties/index.html


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 06:11 PM

There are earlier citations for Presidents Monroe and Jackson and Senator Houston but, so far, it's unrecoverable speeches, letters &c quoted third-hand, much after the fact. No treaties at all.

One thing that seems universally lacking in the academic discussion of "how long is that?" is the ultimate source of the expressions (and wind, water and grass ftm.) One would think it be Psalms:

"Sing unto the Lord with thanksgiving, sing praise upon the harp unto our God:

Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.

...he causeth the wind to blow, and the waters to flow.
" [147: 7-8, 18]


Taken in context it means less "forever & ever" than a somewhat more humble B'ezrat HaShem, Inshallah, Lord willing and the Creek don't rise &c.


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