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ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (P. La Farge)

DigiTrad:
Now I will tell you "busters"
THE BALLAD OF IRA HAYES
THE SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Drums (Peter LaFarge) (1)
Peter LaFarge (20)


Gene 18 Jan 99 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 04:40 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 04:50 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 16 - 05:19 PM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 16 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Phil D.Conch 18 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM
Stewart 18 Dec 16 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Dec 16 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Nov 21 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Nov 21 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Nov 21 - 12:24 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW (f/J Cash
From: Gene
Date: 18 Jan 99 - 02:44 PM

AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW
Words and music by Peter La Farge
As recorded by Johnny Cash on "Bitter Tears" (Columbia CL-2248, 1964)

CHORUS: As long (as long) as the moon (as the moon) shall rise (as the moon shall rise),
As long (as long) as the rivers (as the rivers) flow (as the rivers flow),
As long as the sun will shine,
As long (as long) as the grass shall grow.

The Senecas are an Indian tribe of the Iroquois nation.
Down on the New York-Pennsylvania line, you'll find their reservation.
After the U.S. revolution, Cornplanter was the chief.
He told the tribe these men they could trust; that was his true belief.
He went down to Independence Hall and there a treaty signed
That promised peace with the U.S.A. and Indian rights combined.
George Washington gave his signature; the government gave its hand.
They said that now and forevermore that this was Indian land. CHORUS

On the Seneca Reservation, there is much sadness now.
Washington's treaty has been broken and there is no hope, nohow.
Across the Allegheny River, they're throwing up a dam.
It will flood the Indian country--a proud day for Uncle Sam.
It has broke the ancient treaty with a politician's grin
It will drown the Indian graveyards. Cornplanter, can you swim?
The earth is smothered to the Senecas; they're trampling sacred ground,
Changed the mint-green earth to black mudflats as honor hobbles down. CHORUS

The Iroquois Indians used to rule from Canada way south,
But no one fears the Indians now and smiles the liar's mouth.
The Senecas hired an expert to figure another site,
But the great good army engineers said that he had no right.
Although he showed them another plan and showed them another way,
They laughed in his face and said: "No deal; Kinzua Dam is here to stay."
Congress turned the Indians down, brushed off the Indians' plea,
So the Senecas have renamed the dam; they call it Lake Perfidy. CHORUS

Washington, Adams, and Kennedy now hear their pledges ring.
The treaties are safe; we'll keep our word, but what is that gurgling?
It's the backwater from Perfidy Lake; it's rising all the time
Over the homes and over the fields and over the promises signed.
No boats will sail on Lake Perfidy; in winter, it will fill.
In summer, it will be a swamp and all the fish will kill.
But the government of the U.S.A. has corrected George's vow.
The father of our country must be wrong; what's an Indian, anyhow?

CHORUS: As long (as long) as the moon (as the moon) shall rise (as the moon shall rise),
Look up!
As long (as long) as the rivers (as the rivers) flow (as the rivers flow),
Are you thirsty?
As long as the sun will shine,
My brother, are you warm?
As long (as long) as the grass shall grow.


Johnny Cash Studio Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwhlI5Rj0-U

Johnny Cash live performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQq0dw7rmtc

Gillian Welch & Dave Rawlings Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98VnKORRpk


Click for related thread


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Subject: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:40 PM

"As long as the grass shall grow and rivers flow" and similar language was used in reference to Indian treaties made by the U.S. Government. I have not been able to find this language in any of the treaties I have read, but popular writing of the time does use the language.


Thread #41907   Message #606906
Posted By: Joe Offer
09-Dec-01 - 07:14 PM
Thread Name: Lyr Req: Talking Kinzua Dam
Subject: Lyr: SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)^^

Gene posted the Johnny Cash version of this song a couple of years ago, but I think this may be closer to the original. I guess it's not the song requested, but it's certainly related.
-Joe Offer-



THE SENECAS (AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW)
(PETER LAFARGE)

The Senecas are an Indian Tribe of the Iroquois nation,
Down on the New York-Pennsylvania line, you'll find their reservation.
After the U. S. revolution, Cornplanter was a chief;
He told the tribe these men they could trust, that was his true belief.
He went down to Independence Hall, and there a treaty signed,
That promised peace with the USA, and Indian rights combined.
George Washington gave his signature, the Government gave its hand;
They said that now and forever more this was Indian land.

CHORUS: As long as the moon shall rise,
As long as the rivers flow,
As long as the sun will shine,
As long as the grass shall grow.

On the Seneca reservation, there is much sadness now;
Washington's treaty has been broken, and there is no hope, no how.
Across the Allegheny River, they're trowing up a dam;
It will flood the Indian country, a proud day for Uncle Sam.
It has broke the ancient treaty with a politician's grin;
It will drown the Indian graveyards -- Cornplanter, can you swim?
The earth is mother to the Senecas; they're trampling sacred ground,
Change the mint-green earth to black mud flats, as honor hobbles down...

The Iroquois Indians used to rule from Canada way south;
But no one fears the Indians now, and smiles the liar's mouth.
The Senecas hired an expert to figure another site;
But the great good Army engineers said that he had no right.
Although he showed them another plan, and showed them another way,
They laughed in his face and said, "No deal, Kinzua dam is here to stay."
Congress turned the Indian down, brushed off the Indians' plea;
So the Senecas have renamed the dam, they call it "Lake Perfidy."

Washington, Adams, and Kennedy, now hear their pledges ring,
"The treaties are safe, we'll keep our word," but what is that gurgling?
It's the backwater from Perfidy Lake, it's rising all the time,
Over the homes and over the fields, over the promises fine.
No boats will sail on Lake Perfidy, in winter it will fill;
In summer it will be a swamp, and all the fish will kill.
But the Government of the USA has corrected George's vow.
The Father of Our Country must be wrong -- what's an Indian, anyhow?
^^

This song comes from the early 1960's. I found it here (click)


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Subject: ADD: The Indian Prayer (Indianee)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:50 PM

There's another song on this theme in the Rise Again Songbook. It's called by various names, and the lyrics vary greatly from one recording to the next. In the songbook, we tried to honor the original Mousaa version while including the best of the other versions. I can't find my transcription of the Mousaa version. A link to his performance is below. Feel free to transcribe it and post it here.

Here's the version from the Emma's Revolution Website:

THE INDIAN PRAYER (INDIANEE)
©1974 Victor Roland Mousaa
Tom Pacheco
Loesser Music

As long as the sun shall glow
As long as the stream shall flow
As long as the wind shall blow
As long as the grass shall grow
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

As long as the bird shall sing
As long as the deer shall spring
As long as the whale's swimming
As long as their lives shall be
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

As long as the baby's small
As long as our children grow tall
As long as our elder's recall
As long as this earth shall call
This land, this land shall be
Indanee

Source: http://www.emmasrevolution.com/listen/album/hands/2-indanee/


Performance by Roland Mousaa (lyrics are somewhat different): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5AkdKadKiA

Richie Havens performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TME9VWLovCA


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 05:19 PM

The LaFarge song indicates that George Washington signed a treaty with the Seneca Nation with language similar to "as long as the grass shall grow and rivers flow." I understand similar language was used in the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1851, and the Treaty of Medicine Lodge with the Sioux in 1867. I haven't been able to find texts of these and other treaties with this language. Can anybody find them?
-Joe-

Here's the Treaty of Fort Laramie

Here's a whole library of Indian treaties: http://digital.library.okstate.edu/KAPPLeR/Vol2/toc.htm

It would be nice to be able to document original sources of this "grass shall grow and rivers flow" language. I see references to it all over, but no original sources. Could this be an early example of "false news"? The Indian treaties I've read sound like treaties - no poetic language in them.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 09:15 AM

Any historians here?


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil D.Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM

Have you located the phrase in any Indian treaties yet?

I thought it came from Cooper's Littlepage series which was more about Euro-American farm leases in the Hudson Valley. I don't think he ever used it in relation to the local tribes/treaties (???)


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Subject: Lyr Add: AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW (Scofield
From: Stewart
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:27 PM

Here's another related song

AS LONG AS THE GRASS SHALL GROW
by Twilo Scofield, 1977
Sung by Sally and John Ashford
From a live "Apple Jam" concert in Olympia, WA on Sept. 9th, 1978

As long as the sun will shine
As long as the rivers may flow
As long as the moon will rise
And as long as the grass shall grow

We first knew you as the feeble tree
That needed a place to grow
We could have trod you under our feet
But we taught you the ways that we know

Good words and broken promises
You gave us and we trusted you   
You came to live in peace you said
And that's all that we wanted too

As long as the sun will shine…

You lit our lodges for your campfires
In the ashes left dust and blood
We thought half our land would satisfy you
But we found out that it never would

You left us like birds with broken wings
All scattered like stones on the ground
But in silent fields and pathless woods
Our dreams and our spirits are found

As long as the sun will shine…

For we have known when the forests were free
And the wind spirits roamed our land
And everything that we needed for life
We took with a gentle hand

Now the sky is round and the earth is round
And the sun and the stars and the moon
The seasons all move in a circle too
And our spring will come again soon

As long as the sun will shine…

From Washington Songs and Lore – Linda Allen, p.119: "Twilo Scofield wrote 'As Long As The Grass Shall Grow' in 1977 after reading Touch the Earth by T. C. McLuhan. The book contains speeches given by Native American tribal leaders. The verses are paraphrased from speeches given by Nez Perce Chief Joseph, Red Jacket of the Seneca, Ten Bears of the Comanche, Seattle of the Duwamish, and Dan George, hereditary chief of the Coast Salish, among others." Twilo Scofield, the granddaughter of an Oregon homesteader, a teacher of folklore, musician and author, lived in Eugene, OR.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:29 PM

Exact quote is a bit different:

"...and I sincerely hope this neck of the land will continue to go by its old appellation as long as the House of Hanover shall sit on the throne of these realms; or as long as water shall run and grass shall grow."

[Satanstoe; from the Littlepage Manuscripts, A Tale of the Colony, Cooper, James Fenimore, (New York: Burgess, Stringer, 1845, p.12)]


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM

"Each tribe or band shall have the right to posses, occupy, and use the reserve allotted to it, as long as grass shall grow and water run, and the reserves shall be their own property like their horses and cattle."*

Article 5 of the Confederate States of America Treaty with the Comanches and Other Tribes and Bands, 12 August 1861.

*The expression "so long as grass shall grow and water run" appears in eight out of nine Confederate States treaties with these tribes: it is absent from the text of the Treaty with the Cherokees.

http://treatiesportal.unl.edu/csaindiantreaties/index.html


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow & Indianee
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 06:11 PM

There are earlier citations for Presidents Monroe and Jackson and Senator Houston but, so far, it's unrecoverable speeches, letters &c quoted third-hand, much after the fact. No treaties at all.

One thing that seems universally lacking in the academic discussion of "how long is that?" is the ultimate source of the expressions (and wind, water and grass ftm.) One would think it be Psalms:

"Sing unto the Lord with thanksgiving, sing praise upon the harp unto our God:

Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.

...he causeth the wind to blow, and the waters to flow.
" [147: 7-8, 18]


Taken in context it means less "forever & ever" than a somewhat more humble B'ezrat HaShem, Inshallah, Lord willing and the Creek don't rise &c.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 01:58 PM

Seems the sudden influx of tomahawk chops; growing grass and flowing waters in my newsfeed and homework checking isn't just the Atlanta Braves winning baseball's World Series. November is also the U.S. government's official Native American Indian Heritage Month and it does seem they're going particularly hard at it this year.

Soooo, to paint my previous with a somewhat finer brush for the occasion(s) -

“Satanstoe has the place been called, therefore, from time immemorial; as time is immemorial in a country in which civilized time commenced not a century and a half ago: and Satanstoe it is called to-day. I confess I am not fond of unnecessary changes, and I sincerely hope this neck of land will continue to go by its old appellation, as long as the House of Hanover shall sit on the throne of these realms; or as long as water shall run and grass grow.
[Satanstoe, Cooper, 1848]

Note: The setting is pre-revolutionary colonial America. When Cooper wrote these words in 1848, New York was no longer a colony in the realm of the House of Hanover. The author is being facetious, sarcastic, ironic, whatevs. Ergo, the phrase must already be in popular usage for the 1848 reader to get the joke, as it were.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:00 PM

Earliest so far...

“Before she died, which was not till her years were more than the years of a tortoise, she called her eldest daughter to the side of her couch and gave her the balls*, telling her to bestow them upon her eldest daughter, with such directions as would ensure their remaining among the Ottawas as long as grass shall grow and water run. They have been handed down from daughter to daughter, and son to son, till the present time.”
[Tales of an Indian Camp, Vol. III, Jones, The New British Novelist, Vol. XLV, 1829]
[Republished as Traditions of the North American Indians, Vol. III, Jones, 1830]

*Medicine pills: Black mushrooms, pemine berries, squaw maple leaves and dogwood flowers moistened with the spittle of the Great Elk.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:02 PM

And, in addition to Jones above, clearly not limited to Indians, or even Americans:

“The arguments that were urged in this case by the appellant would lead to the conclusion that all the land that was purchased in fee simple by Mr. Dixon, and belonged to him as long as grass shall grow and water run, must all be personalty just as much as the machinery erected upon the land.”
[Fisher v. Dixon, Reports of Cases Decided in the House of Lords, 1845-1848]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:03 PM

Shades of Statanstoe, already held in literary contempt by at least some American Indians at least a decade before the CSA rewriting of the treaties.

“The lands which they offer, seem to us but miry swamps, where our nation will survive but a few years at the farthest. Should we leave these lands, where, O! where , should we find a spot to rest our weary feet. It is hard but we cannot resist; he is stronger than we, and our fathers' friend. What remains to be done but to call our women and children together and prepare for the departure. Let us nerve up and strengthen the heart; to say to them that we are exiles without friends or home, save the wilds of the forest. There we are offered a resting spot forever; as long as grass shall grow, and water run. o, pale- face, dost thou speak with a forked tongue that has deceived many of our fathers and brothers. Ye will crowd us out of our homes, and the last look which we cast behind us, though our eyes would fain look for ever on those loved homes; yet, that last look shall be short, and the pale - face will say, as he ever says, 'The Indian cannot feel.'”
[A Sketch of the Life of Okah Tubbee, Tubbee, 1848]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (La Farge
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

Original texts:

“TREATY WITH THE SENECAS AND THE SHAWNEES
ARTICLE III. ...to each tribe or band respectively, the title in fee simple, as long as each, respectively, shall exist as a nation and remain thereon, and the exclusive possession and undisturbed use, occupancy and enjoyment, as long as grass shall grow and water run, of the country heretofore secured to each respectively, by treaties with, and patents from, the United States of America; and which countries are thus described and ascertained…

TREAT WITH THE QUAPAWS
ARTICLE III...The Confederate States of America do hereby assure and guarantee to the Quapaw Tribe of Indians, the exclusive and undisputed possession, use and occupancy, during all time, as long as grass shall grow and water run, of the country heretofore secured to them by treaty with the United States of America, and which is described in the treaty of the thirteenth day of May, A.D., one thousand eight hundred and thirty-three,...”
[The Statutes at Large of the Provisional Government of the Confederate States of America, Matthews ed, 1864]

Note: The upshot is Nations are being required to swear loyalty to the newly formed CSA and declare all existing treaties with the USA to be null and void. I've not found anything like the key verbiage in the 1830s originals… yet. Also nothing new to report on Monroe, Jackson et al... yet.

Treaty of Little Sandusky (1831) (Transcript)
Treaty with the Quapaw


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (P. La Farge)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:35 PM

Swap the order of presentation and/or the conjunction and you get more references. Earlier Cooper:

“Count Emich listened warily as his guest the Abbé read clause after clause of the deed. Occasionally his eye wandered to the firm countenance of the Abbot, betraying habitual distrust of his heriditary and powerful enemy, but it was quickly riveted again on the heated features of the reader.

“This is well,” he said, when both papers had been examined: “These vines are to remain for ever with me and mine, without claim from any grasping churchman, so long as grass shall grow or water run, or henceforth they pay double tribute, a tax that will leave little for the cellar of their rightful lord.”
[The Heidenmauer: A Legend of the Rhine, Cooper, 1832]


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (P. La Farge)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:43 PM

It might be proper legal doctrine and not just puffery to impress the natives:

“The words, on which the plaintiff relies, as creating a covenant, are these: “To have and to hold, &c. she said Horatio yielding and paying to James Borland, his heirs, &c. yearly and every year, so long as grass shall grow, or water run, the full and just sum of 25 dollars.” These word constitute an express covenant, and not a mere covenant by implication of law.
[Reports of Cases Argued and Determined in the Supreme Court of the State of Vermont, Vol. IX, 1838]


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (P. La Farge)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 12:21 AM

Two Presidents one citation? Found Andrew Jackson and, one suspects, he was being misquoted as Monroe elsewhere. Not in a treaty but a 'personal message' to the Creek Nation treaty hold-outs. Delivered March 1829 by the local Indian Agent. Not sure of the audience/forum:

INDIAN TALK.
From the President of the United States, to the Creek Indians, through Colonel Crowell*.
… Friends and Brothers
. listen:—Where you now are, you and my white children are too near to each other to live in harmony and peace. Your game is destroyed, and many of your people will not work and till the earth. Beyond the great river Mississippi, where a part of your nation has gone, your father has provided a country large enough for all of you, and he advises you to remove to it. There your white brothers will not trouble you; they will have no claim to the land, and you can live upon it, you and all your children, as long as the grass grows or the water runs, in peace and plenty. It will be yours for ever. For the improvements in the country where you now live, and for all the stock which you cannot take with you, your father will pay you a fair price.”
[Documents and Proceedings Relating to the Formation and Progress of a Board in the City of New York for the Emigration, Preservation, and Improvement, of the Aborigines of America, 22 July 1829]

Joseph John Crowell (1780 – 1846)
“In the election of 1818, he became the first member of the House of Representatives from the new state of Alabama. When he retired after one term in 1821, President James Monroe appointed him the United States Indian agent to the Creek Indians.” [wiki]

Col. Crowell was still agent to the Creek Nation when Presidnt Andrew Jackson took office in March 1829.


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Subject: RE: ADD: As Long as the Grass Shall Grow (P. La Farge)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 12:24 AM

Old country savages ;)

““Good by, Mr. O'Callaghan.”

“May God and the Blessed Virgin bless you, and yours, as long as grass grows and water runs!”

Such was the grateful benediction of an “Irish savage!””
[A Winter in Dublin, Vol.I, Sedley, 1808]


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