BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:39 PM

Thanks, Bill D. And I wish you a Merry... and a wonderful, joyful New Year..

Why not sit by the fire for a moment?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:36 PM

Reminds me of live TV days before the five-second delay. A fellow who did a kids' show was reported to have said (when he thought he was off air), "There, that oughta hold the little buggers."

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

*enters thread, wondering what might be appropriate*...hmmmm

a happy, merry, joyous, pleasant, peaceful, wonderful Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, solstice Holiday Season to all...

believe or not, in whatever customs suit you...be thoughtful of others and kind to yourself by thinking good thoughts which lead to more of the same next year!



*goes off mumbling,"there, that oughta do it.."

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:20 PM

I wish people a Merry Christmas. If they don't like it, tough. So far, no one hasn't liked it. One fellow said that he didn't celebrate Christmas. I replied, "Uh huh, and . . . ". In the words of ol' Ricky Nelson, "Ya can't please everyone, so yer gonna have to please yourself." Merry Christmas, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:10 PM

I have to say that I'm a bit bothered when people wish me "Happy Holidays" - it seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to remove the word "Christmas" from our culture because some might consider it offensive.
I was at Target the other day, and the checker wished me "Happy Holidays." I responded, "Merry Christmas!" - not intending to make an issue, but just because that's what I say during the week before Christmas - and the check said "Merry Christmas!" back at me. I said, "So, are you allowed to say that?" The checker said she could say "Merry Christmas" only if the customer said it first.

I was at Macy's last night and the checker said, "Have a good evening." It didn't push Christmas on people who might not want it - but yet it didn't seem like a deliberate attempt to secularize the holiday.

I think I like the Macy's approach better. And their decorations were far more tasteful.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 08:40 AM

I was thinking about this thread last night. What started out as a Christmas thread for Christians has evolved into something much better. It's not solely about Christmas, although that is what many of us are celebrating. And it's definitely turned out to be a thread for anyone who wanders in to express good wishes for this season.

I was thinking about a fire out in the woods on a cold winter's night. At first, there were just a few sitting around the fire. A couple of people came by and even tried to put out the fire. They thought that it wasn't for them. But as more people came by, warm greetings and good wishes were exchanged, and the circle grew. It turned out that there weren't any restrictions about who could come and warm themselves by the fire, and at least for awhile there was Peace On Mudcat and Good Will toward men and women.

I've had a wonderful time reading this thread, and it's made my Christmas a little special. It is beautiful just to sit together for awhile without rancor or judgment and truly wish each other well.

And at least for a moment, there are no distinctions here. Just friends enjoying each other..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 04:19 AM

A safe, happy, and peaceful Christmas to you all.

Only four hours 45 minutes away for us!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM

Where's Teribus, Jimmy C???

Awwww, just a little Christmans humor...

Can't find any fault with that, my friend...

Thanks, and a Happiest of Holy-Days to you as well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jimmy C
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM

Bobert, A sincere Happy, Safe and Holy Christmas to you and your's.

Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards men"


How can anyone find fault with that ?.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:52 PM

Feed a cold, starve a fever,
Argue with no true believer.

Merry Christmas to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:38 PM

Thanks, Ranger... I appreciate it... and all good things on you, too..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: ranger1
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM

Merry Christmas, from a respectful non-believer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:13 PM

Bobert and All;
I don't know that the other thread I was on was anti-Christian or Anti-Christmas. I too am a Christian although not religious. I do wish all a Merry Christmas.
The important message is not about the Birth of Jesus but rather his death and resurrection resulting in his assuming our sins.That was his present to us, the rest is all trappings. God's miraculous gift is forgiveness and love with no strings and no bias.that be my wish to all this Christmas. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:13 PM

I believe a lot of things which Christians do, without being qualified to call myself one. I look forward to Christmas very much though. I am in contact with friends and family, who are in different countries. Some of them I have not seen for many years. It gives me a chance to have a special few days with my own family. It also gives me the chance to recall the kindness of my parents, friends and even strangers in other years.
This year I have the chance to also say Merry Christmas to all those Mudcatters, whose kindness and wisdom helped to make 2005 a memorable year for me. Thanks very much folks and Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy New Year to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 03:37 PM

Yes, Jerry. All faiths have so much good in them. I'd be honored to have friends of other faiths invite me to a deeper understanding of theirs, either by way of explanation or an invitation to join in the celebration. We have much to celebrate/commemorate and our diversity makes us richer. I say, let's honor that in each other, take what we can from one another's practice and allow ourselves to grow in wisdom and tolerance in the process.

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 03:33 PM

When these threads were started for the purpose of wishing people well on some other important holidays (holy days), for the most part, they were taken in the spirit in which they were intended, and were treated with respect. I thought, at the time, that it was a very refreshing thing to see. Although I am not a Christian myself, I think I'll treat this one with the same spirit of respect that was shown to these others...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=39065&messages

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=39065&messages

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:47 PM

Good post, KT:

Contrary to what some people feel about religious threads, I'd welcome a Hannukah thread... even some thoughts on how people celebrate the Winter Solstice, and what it means to them. Those may not be my beliefs, but I'd be interested in learning more about them.

My youngest son has had interest in Buddhism for many years now, and he recommended to me some books on the topic (in addition to one that I have, which he read, initially introducing himself to Buddhism.) After years of questioning, he's found a home in the Unitarian Universalist church. If he at some point narrows his belief system into a particular faith, he will be the richer for studying the goodness in many.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:11 PM

I am reminded of the arrogant fellow who's driving 'round and 'round looking for a parking spot. He says, "Lord, please give me a place to park and I promise I will pray to You every night for the rest of my life." Just then a car pulled out thus providing him with a place to park his car and the fellow said, "Forget it, God. I found one."

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:08 PM

Well, KT, I'm witchoo. I don't know much about the more complex aspects of Christianity, but I do know about goodwill and good wishes to my fellow species type of folks. And that, I wish on all concerned.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: KT
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:55 PM

Well, I posted this on another thread, but seeing the direction this one has taken at certain points, I'll repeat it here:

Merry Christmas, everyone.

For those who do not celebrate Christmas, receive the good wishes that come with those words, but don't interpret them as anything but good wishes for you, for that is indeed what they are.   And for those of you who celebrate other holidays/holy days, I hope on those days you will extend good wishes/blessings to me in the same spirit. Even if I do not happen to celebrate your holy days, I know that for you they represent something deeply meaningful, and I honor and respect that. If I choose to educate myself about your holy days, I know that I will be richer for it.

Warmest wishes for all that is good in this season,

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Arkie
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:25 AM

Respectful communication among those who disagree helps one to grow spritually and intellectually and is a key ingredient in holding churches, governments, families, and cultural societies together.   Branding opposing ideas and ridicule of opposing ideals are polarizing and destructive. I have found it gratifying that so many mudcatters responding to this thread have done so with genuine Good Will. Happy Holiday (Holy Day) and Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: GUEST,KA
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:06 AM

Thanks Dave. Your quote comes from "The famous and most Memorable Works of Josephus" who is considered one of the major contributors to literature in that period. Jesus did indeed exist and performed documented miracles as outlined in the Gospels. Many doubt whether he was the Messiah and much of that depends on their belief or non belief in The Bible as being a true record of the times. Jesus still performs miracles today but many of us fail to recognise them. Have a good time over Christmas all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:05 AM

Reading this thread this morning brings light to my day. It does my heart good to see most Catters who have contributed express good will and appreciation, whether they are Christian or not. And to my mind, that's the way it should be. I said this in another thread and it's worth repeating.

How you treat someone should have nothing to do with what they believe, and everything to do with what you do.



Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 AM

Jerry so rightly says "Respecting someone doesn't mean that you can't strongly disagree with them."

Unfortunately many people in contemporary society cannot see the truth of that statement. The thought seems to be "if you disagree with me we cannot be friends". Surely this reaction is the politics of the school playground, and we should have matured beyond that point to a place where we can agree to differ, and maintain relationship, rather than trade insults.

Leftydee's post shows the way it can be. Gawd bless yer, Lefty!

Clinton claims that Jesus never existed, but there is evidence for an historical Jesus, particularly from Flavius Josephus, the Jewish (not Christian) historian (c37-100AD), who wrote:

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."
                               - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63

There is actually more documentary evidence for Jesus Christ (26,000+ documents) than for Julius Caesar (approx. 43 documents), yet few doubt his existence.

Thanks Bobert for starting this thread, as it gives me opportunity to wish you, Jerry, Clinton, Leftydee, Breton Cap (see you at Tenterden next year?) et al, Christian and otherwise, a really joyous Christmas and a wonderful new year!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: GUEST,BazT
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:15 AM

Have a good Christamas folkies, I'm switching this damn thing off now until the new year (yipeee!!!)

Best wishes to you and yours.

BazT

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: tarheel
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:42 AM

God bless you and a Very Merry Christmas to you too,Bobert!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:23 AM

(bad hair day.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:20 AM

my apologies, I shouldn't have said that.


good will to all!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:19 AM

This is an open forum, people can start threads on whatever topic they like.

Thanks to people like Bobert and Jerry who have enlarged my view of Christianity, and may you all have a happy Christmas.

those who have invaded this thread with your reactive and destructive comments can piss off.


freda

(obviously not a Christian, from that last comment).

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:32 AM

Where living waters flow, let there be love and Peace. Let there be understanding and tolerance. Merry Christmas everyone. Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:26 AM

Martin, there's nobody here who thinks you're going to hell for not acknowleging Jesus as savior. They may think you're going to hell for other reasons, but that's another discussion topic....
Merry Christmas and other appropriate greetings of the season, eh?
Have a beer on me.

But about Christmas, I have to say that we church musicians are about sick of Christmas by now. I gnerally have a good time as choir practice, but we've had three this week - and I got yelled at yesterday by an overstressed tenor who just about bit my head off.

I can hardly wait to go off to Camp Harmony next week and sing secular stuff.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 11:19 PM

I hope all Christians have a wonderful Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: rangeroger
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 11:13 PM

A very Merry Christmas to you Bobert and to you all whether you believe or not.
KT brought up remembering things of Christmas' past. One thing which will alwys be held dear in my memory is asking for and being baptised on Christmas day.
It was 45 years ago this year. I was 15 and the baptism was done at the chapel of the old Luftwaffe barracks in Berchtesgaden Germany.
My belief in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ still hold firm today as they did then. I may not always live that life, but I try to.

Merry Christmas
rr

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Joybell
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM

Bobert - Just thought I'd drop by. Peace. Happy wishes. Joy. Cheers. Cheers, Joy My name's such fun this time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:02 PM

jerry, I am not anti-christian. You can believe in the man Jesus all you want. Just realize that there is zero proof that he is the messiah, was birthed without his mother getting pregnant any other way then by the usual schtupping. The whole superstition of it all defies quite a bit of logical thinking.

You born again holdy roller types just have to realize that Jews do not feel that they are going to hell for not acknowleging Jesus as savior. And we do not care if you think that we will go hell. We are prepared to wait somewhat longer for the messiah to come. And then won't there be a lot of hand wringing. As far as this day vs. 364 others, as they say on Passover, "why is this night different......, etc."

I say, find faith in your hearts every day. Look to the one God himself, not imposters or substitutes to find that faith. Give to charity all of the year, not just at this time which seems to be only a popular seasonal pastime for many.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:57 PM

Shalom Aleichem

from

Robomatic

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

To be purely informational, all I know is, threads like this make me unbelievably tired, during a season I work the hardest for other people. The result, at least at Mudcat, is that I share less, be myself less, and look elsewhere for replenishment.

The pervasive meanness just gets overwhelming.

It happens every time there is a Christian holiday coming along. I guess the media saturation gets people going about all their pent-up resentments. I'm tired of people asssuming it's OK to vent that resentment here at people who have never harmed them.

And I'm tired of seeing newcomers to Mudcat ignoring veterans' hard-learned advice about keeping the peace and then seeing these same newcomers aiming thinly-veiled preaching at folks, gaining temporary popularity for it, then learning the same lesson we tried to share with them as they too come to see how Mudcat really is, about religious issues.

I'm tired of people battering at something important to me and then lecturing me about how I ought to handle their battering.

To be purely informational, this season is also the annual reminder of my identical twin's death. Lots of other people have other wounds that bleed at Christmas time.... frankly, it's over the top to have people rub shit into open wounds FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

I'm tired of the whole fucking event, by the time people here are done shitting on it in their wondrously creative, various ways. All I see after a round of that is the shit left over-- an ever-increasing pile of it. But if that's how you want to remembered, by all means keep shitting. After all, it's your "right" to use your creativity in that way. Right?

Merry Christmas, by the way.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM

"if that was directed at me... No. I am bald."

It was not... and I feel your pain Gnu... getting that way myself

Best wishes in this, the season of gorging, to ya!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Epona
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:11 PM

Merry Christmas!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:07 PM

Ah... Clint... if that was directed at me... No. I am bald. What a pitiful attempt. I would have expected better from you. Merry Christmas, whether you like it or not. Peace on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 02:55 PM

Merry christmas , all

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 02:02 PM

Thanks, and a happy Gnu Year!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 02:01 PM

Don't you find you muss up you hair with your head that far down in the sand?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:54 PM

Gosh. Quite the, ah, discussion, born of a simple, kind gesture. And I mean that from BOTH "sides".

Whilst not a Christian, allow me, Bobert, to wish you, and all, a very Merry Christmas.

Oh... anyone not wishing to be wished a Merry Christmas can simply ignore my wish, wishy-washy as that may seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

Oops I guess I wasn't really practicing Silence there, huh? arrrgghhhhh ... oh well. I know I can count on Clinton to provide many more such opportunities, asap.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

Daylia:

Truth is, I agree with what you said about limiting discussions about Christ and Christianity. Two things I just about never discuss in the "real world" are religion and politics. Both topics rarely generate a respectful discussion. Most of the time, it's two people taking turns talking. The listening is mostly done by the talker, admiring their own lucidity and impeccable logic. It's pretty funny, when you get right down to it. Like two balloons trying to out-inflate each other. My conversations on religion outside of the Cat are either with other believers, or non-believers who respect the beliefs of others. I've had endless, actual conversations with people who are Atheists, Agnostics, Jews and Muslims where I believe that we came away with a better understanding and appreciation for each other. I dearly love Art Thieme, although we have very little agreement on spiritual matters. One of my sons is an Agnostic, and we've probably had the best, most thoughtful and respectful conversations on faith that I've ever had with anyone. I shared many years of enjoyable conversation with Jewish friends of mine, done with love and respect. I find all those conversations enlightening and mutually strengthening. That never happens in here. If it was possible, I'd love to have a respectful conversation about why people believe they exist, and what they are attempting to do in their lives. That's not going to happen in here. If it did, I think that Agnostics, Atheists and Jews would find much common ground. Atheists don't necessarily disagree with the teachings of Christ, many of which are shared by Buddhists and Jews. After all, Christ was a Jew. I could imagine sitting down with Bill D some evening, talking honestly about our philosphy of life, without rancor or insult. I think that we'd find that we have more in common than might immediately appear, even though Bill doesn't cotton much to faith.

No one ever has any positive effect on another person unless they
make it clear that they like and respect them. That doesn't happen nearly as much in here as it should. Respecting someone doesn't mean that you can't strongly disagree with them.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:08 PM

Clinton, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to practice tolerance, patience, respect, compassion, and silence here.

I want you to know that you, and everyone who thinks and talks like you are playing a unique, vitally important and most appreciated role in my life; certainly a role that none of my spiritually-like-minded (or semi-like-minded) friends or anyone who cared for me personally could play!

You are helping me become a stronger, wiser, more loving person.   I'll never develop bigger biceps if all I lift is feathers, after all! So please, have yourself a wonderful holiday, all the best to you and yours, and thank you again Clinton!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 12:56 PM

"Howzabout letting us Christians have Christmas and you other folks can have the other 364 days"

Sure... when you give back everything your religion stole... oh wait.. that includes X-mas doesn't it... and Easter.... and ever single one of your other celebrations...

"we Christians believe we do know Him.."
Ya... I have an anut who believes she hears voices from the coffee maker and the toaster oven but if she takes her meds, it's not so bad...

The Greatest Scam Ever Told

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 12:54 PM

I know, MMario. ANd I understand completely what you said too, Jerry.

I think it's kinda strange I posted my thoughts about the virtues of Silence here, just after Bobert's wonderful Christmas story gave me the courage to witness for Jesus as Divine Healer myself. Sometimes I really don't understand myself at all ...

Truth is, I love Jesus so much I can't bear to think that any ill-timed or ill-placed words of mine might draw more pain or ridicule or abuse His way. (Not that such ridicule or abuse harms Him, mind you, just all the rest of the people involved)

It's doubly difficult for me, I think, because no matter what my personal relationship with Jesus might be, I do not label myself as "Christian". I can't, for many excellent personal reasons.

My own spiritual understandings and practices have evolved in a way that leave me an outsider in any religious organization or spiritual group. So it's been quite the long, lonely haul. And a much more peaceful one when I have the strength and presence of mind to practice silence as a virtue. Which, as most of you here know, is certainly not always the case!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Thread for Christians...
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 12:37 PM

Wesley, with all due respect, this is a discussion forum. Bobert knew that when he started this thread. He's well aware that playing Swedish fiddle music annoys some people in this forum. Pre-emptive dismissal of dissent is a well-worn fallacy. In his own vernacular, I guess his chickens done come home to roost.

Merry Christmas (and turn that music down!) ;o)