Where are the kids?

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jan 99 - 07:51 PM

Well you could get a bunch of us. God knows this is a diverse bunch, always arguin' over what folk is. But I'll bet there's something for everybody around here somewhere.catspaw

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From:
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 01:28 PM

I just read through this thread and I think this is one of the most thought provoking ones I have read.I recently read an extensive interview with Cordelia's Dad, a group of traditional musicians ,all twenty-something.The interview was interesting for a number of reasons. One was the obvious disgust with being described as a "folk" group.In fact the liner notes for "Comet",an excellent collection of traditional music by them, refers to"types of f*lk music", as if the word were an obscenity. And yet the interview goes on to describe research into manuscripts for forgotten tunes from the mid-19th century, the lead singer's early interests in Shape-Note Song, and differences between frame-drum and bodhran technique.This band also performs electric versions of these same mid-1800s songs in a style that I would have to describe as Punk-Trad.(God forbid I should use the term folk-rock). I think these young musicians bristle at any description or classification of what they do that implies they are following in the footsteps of their parents.When I was 19 and singing with my band "Mythology" we sure didn't aspire to do new interpretations of terrific old Tommy Dorsey songs.Somehow the music of our grandparents was less of a threat, and maybe that accounts for some of folks popularity among my generation.It wasn't shoved down our throats:we were able to "rediscover" music forms like folk and blues that had been obscured.Funny thing,how Big Band music is making a comeback now,huh?

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 01:30 PM

above post was mine...forgot to sign it

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mitch
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 03:33 PM

I've been approached by my fourteen year old daughter concerning Folk music. This was rather an interesting topic needless to say. I had to immediately refer to the place where I could gather immediate information. From what I've been reading about I like to say it has been positive - diversity is truly a wonderful thing, this applies to music as well as culture etc. Hoping to learn more.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 04:08 PM

Just caught up to this thread; thanks to Lonesome EJ for refreshing it.

Most of the posts refer to "kids" as being tweens, young adults, adolescents; whatever you call 'em. If you mean who is PERFORMING folk, that makes sense.

But as far as growing new fans, in my professions of young people's librarian I find I am constantly gently reminding parents and other caregivers to share what they already know.

Just this morning I sang and taught "Grizzly Bear" in preschool storytime (I learned it from Doug Lipman and it is in his great book. If you have an auditorium full of wiggly preschoolers and Raffi is off in the rain forest again, call Doug.)

Last week I sang and taught "Magic Penny." It showed up in church again Sunday (UU, of course.) (I kept diverging from the leader until I realized the leader was doing it the way Malvina Reynolds wrote it; after years and years of singing along with Mr. Sing Along, Fred Holstein, in Chicago, I had to readjust.)

When we had our centennial celebration and I needed to entertain 30+ kids of all ages, I did play party games, and not one kid knew "In and out the Window," and adults kept saying "I haven't heard that since I was a kid!" (Too much electronic babysitting I guess, but that's another soapbox.)

(Play party games, by the way, are the great way to teach kids the skills for folk dancing later on; I highly recommend them).

One more memory for me; busking in Chicago subways again.

A little girl and her mother wanted to stop and listen but hadto hury for the train instead. since I was tired anyway, I headed on over to the platform myself, and the little girl asked for a song while we waited for the Northbound Howard St. line.

So I pulled out my beater and started singing, song after song. When I began "Bingo," the mother wandered over and joined in. The child stopped in amazement. "You know this song?" "Oh, everybody knows that old song." I encouraged her to sing it with her daughter, since she apparently did not know it, and was crying out for stimulation. "Oh, she'll learn it in school sometime" said the mother, as they boarded the train and I gaped in wonder.

If you worry about where the next generation of folkies is coming from, get jobs working with young people. teachers. camp counsellors. have your kids join scouts and campfire and everything else, and volunteer to do programs. (The leaders will love it.)

And check for libraries like mine, where you will find all of Fink and Marker's excellent tapes, and those great instructional vidieos from Rounder and elsewhere. Tweens looking to learn how to play will take out any genre of instruction.

Mary Ann

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 05:04 PM

Grizzly Brear? I don't know that one Mary Ann
Heard a poem in school once about 'The Grizzly Izzly Bear'. WOuld that be it?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Bri
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 06:38 PM

I didn't read most of these, only the first two, or so, so i don't know if the topic has changed. I'm 15 and i luv folk music. My parents don't listen to it. and we often sing it in choir and it tends to be more liked than the other religious stuff the teacher has us do. i know lots of kids my age that know some of these, ones that aren't in choir. and camps...damn..that's ALL they sing! and that's like 1,000's of kids singing the skye boat song. they're there! bri

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Banjer
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 07:04 PM

I don't know what part of the world Bri is in, but all I can say is "Good for you, Bri" (and all the others you know who like folk music.) Here in the American south, it seems that folk music is not as popular as it once was among the youger set. I often get a good laugh when young folks, even my own kids, come raving about a song they just heard as a new release. When it comes on again and they get me to listen to it they are amazed that I can sing along with it. They listen with awe as I, (the resident Caveman, well ) tell them of how their mother and I also thought at one time that this must be a new song untill OUR parents told us how THEY had heard it when they were young....and so the cycle repeats itself....help it along, Bri and company.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 07:20 PM

Somewhat along the lines of what Banjer was saying, but opposite:

I was merrily singing a few tunes along with the guitar like "Dark Hollow" and "Pig in a Pen" when my teenage son comes into the room saying, "I thought you didn't like the Grateful Dead!"

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 08:58 PM

Grizzly Bear: (grizzly has 3 syllables)

Talking 'bout the grizzly, grizzly bear

old work song with a very strong rhythm

doug showd us how to stretch it into a creative drama with:

stomp and tromp like a grizzly bear have you got big claws like the grizzly bear into your den like ...

sleep all winter like ...

simple Aminor - Eminor vamp; sorry, it is NOT in Doug Lipman's *We all go together: creative activities for children to use with multicultural folksongs* like I thought it was.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: SeanM
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 09:04 PM

As a slightly younger member of the set, I'd like to say that we're out here.

I work the Renaissance faire scene as a member of an acting/singing troupe with a speciality in sea shanties. A few of us have just started a side group performing music from several periods. We're preparing our shanty set for the Faire, and have also been doing gigs for the California sesquicentennial (sp?). Our ages are from 23-35, and in the larger group we come from we range from 11-45. Don't give up hope yet. And don't pass the mantle... we're building a new one with everything that's come before, and a touch of our own selves built in.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Anne Lee
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 10:10 PM

Laurel started a thread awhile back entitled something like "What are schools doing to folk music". Some of the issues, concerns, responses are similar, sort of...anyway...our local school district seems to do a pretty good job. I know for a fact at the school I teach at has a fantastic program.

As long as we expose the younger generations to folk, it will continue. Thank God. Tunes you can actually remember and sing...TRy hummin' a rap song?

Anne Lee

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Banjer
Date: 19 Feb 99 - 08:10 PM

Way to go Muckscapper! It's good to see that folk music of all varieties, (ballads, sea chanties, protest songs, etc. etc.) are being carried on. I'm sure that folk will outlive much of the forms of music(?) that are abundant today, much as it has outlived many of the styles of music that have come and gone over the years. Keep up the good work, all of you younger ones. While I have the floor, along the same vein, does anyone remember when country music was great? The early to mid 50's up into the mid 60's seems to be the Golden Era of Country Music. I have the two multi volume sets of Country's Family Reunion, hosted by Bill Anderson and they sure bring back some really good memories of days when we gathered around the radio to listen to the Grand Ole Opry on Saturday Nights....Ah, those were the days!

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 12:36 AM

Muckskipper,you hit the nail on the head!That is the great power of traditional music-it is strong enough to thrive under the changes that each generation imposes upon it, because the roots are changeless and enduring.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: BK
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 03:12 PM

Great Thread; just takes a long time to read, & then, @ my advanced age of 53 (or is it 54?? I don't care.. have long since stopped caring..), I tend to forget some of the notions that came to me as I read...

Anyway: As I shared w/ Tom Paxton several yrs ago, singing on the street & having young kids know all the words to many of my favorites by him amazed me - when I asked where they learned them I was told "at camp." I certainly think that's great.. I wonder - what if I sang "County Down?" Would they sing along?

As for Dysneyfication: I looked for years to find a version of "Coulters' Candy" in plain enough english rather than heavy brogue; when I finally sang it for some kids they said "we know that, Barney sings it." (I think they were more familiar w/the tune than words as I did them; Barney may use entirely different words.) I'm still trying to decide how I feel abt that.. So far, my gut doesn't feel very good abt it.. I'd like to know how other 'Catters view it..

As for venues: As long as the music is good, I'm generally OK.. But I also remember when a 25 yr old guy in Navy boot camp w/us 17-yr-olds caused us to worry that he would have heart trouble trying to keep up w/us. I would not have considered where a grey-beard -like me now- went as some place very interesting.

One thing, though; cigarrette (or, worse yet, cigar) smoke makes me ill. It always did - why I never could smoke. (Thank God!!) As a physician I know the consequences of this drug addiction. I've seen good studies doccumenting the striking addictiveness of nicotine. As a correctional doc, I've had the toughest street-hardened gang-warriors, mafiosi, etc.. tell me they could walk away from cocaine & heroin, but could not give up cigarrettes. I'll be damned if I will any longer quietly choke in public because of somebody's drug addiction.. So, non-smoking venues, both for performing & listening are very important for me. This (somewhat) conflicts w/the notion of sharing a music scene w/the young, as it seems at least some older folks are willing to smoke outside or gave 'em up. (In my experience after their first or second heart attack or stroke -but many, like my brilliant but pathetically addicted EE uncle, don't.)

As for songs vs tunes; I really enjoy some celtic instrumentals, (particularly harp) as I do much latin, latin jazz, baroque classical - and the John Williams' Star Wars Suite (absolutely NOT a trekkie, but I am otherwise a life-long sci-fi fan, something I can share w/ & talk abt w/many young people). In fact I'm rather nuts abt Vivaldi, esp some of the Mandolin pieces (I know, same song many times..)

On the other hand, I can only take very selected opera, and am equally selective abt most blue grass or celtic instrumentals; It isn't just that as a mainly by-ear guitar player, playing the same few chords in the mainly same key at mainly similar pace to accompany the -to me- seemingly endless & near identical jigs & reels bores me (I know, there are IMPORTANT technical differences in the various types of jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc..). It's that they don't grab my emotions the way good ballads do - whether from singer-songwriters ("diarroids??" -great term!!) who don't have (much) diarrhea, (or it's "good shit" [??]) or "traditional," which like "folk," is defined differently by different people.

I have realized that I've always loved some kinds of (mainly folk/traditional) ballads, and, in spite of my above comments, it's the types/styles of ballads & other oral traditions as well as instrumentals (& opera) that I've enormously expanded my appreciation of - as I've become more eclectic -and older.

In central Missouri I've seen really young kids, esp girls, trained in classical violin, performing, & winning contests in, "old time fiddlin'." They are tremendously talented, have the energy -god bless 'em- of youth, and are taking lessons from male fiddlers in their 70' & 80's. It's fantastic...

So there is hope; both for expanding my thick-headed personal horizons, and for the future of folk/traditional music, whatever that is...

Gotta run; Saturday Honey-Do & sorting-out-new-move chores to do; running my computer/fax line on a patch from the room across the hall, etc, etc, etc..

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Laurel
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 05:56 PM

HI! Apparently my friend and his group has gotten a gig at the Renissance Festival in Minnesota in the Irish cottage this summer. He is 13 and a true enthusiast. If all goes well, I might play there also.

Laurel

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 01:54 AM

Couldn't resist jumping into this looong thread. My daughter asked me last weekend to make a tape of the songs she grew up on, for my new granddaughter to grow up on...includes Woody Guthrie, Hazel and Alice, Jean and Lee Schilling etc.,etc.,...I really don't think the traditions of "folk music" can fade away, as long as we keep playing and singing.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 02:54 PM

Night Owl,

That's what I with my Dad. He made this cassette with dozens of songs on it. I'll have to get him to do more.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 03:15 PM

P>S> In an effort to be concise in my message last night I left out the obvious....playing,singing... and collecting, storing and SUPPORTING the incredible work Mudcats is doing.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 09:37 PM

I got on this thread by searching "The Original Sloth Band". I would like to see the lyrics to a song on their album Whoopee After Midnight posted. Its a spiritual number about Angels and "coming in glory". But on the topic of Where are the kids I think the answer is "they're everywhere". It should be obvious to all of us that marketing can't kill music. We can only hope that some day music will kill marketing.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: JamesJim
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 11:24 PM

I performed at a benefit a few weeks ago and a young man (late teens, early twenties) approached a friend and myself and asked if he could play fiddle with us. To our delight, he was very good and we enjoyed ourselves very much. My friend and I are in our late 50s, so this was a nice surprise. The young man even invited us to a Weekly Friday night sing-a-long. They are out there, although few and far between. We have Memorial and Labor Day hoots and there are always a few around. Keep the faith!

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 11:29 PM

This is a truly enjoyable and slightly wistful thread for me. It seems like not so long ago I was one of the kids getting to share the stage at Orphans in Chicago with the awe-inspiring Art Theime and many other great acoustic players too numerous and obscure to mention. My partner T. Douglas and I came to the scene very head strong and cock sure; we were lucky enough to see the folk tradition live and in person and still carry those lessons with us. I still enjoy playing the songs and telling the bad jokes I picked up along the way. We got to steal from the best.

Now I've been introduced some new kids on the block, so to speak. There is a strong new grass tradition in the 20 something set, based around Garcia, Grisman, Rowan et al. And I get to pass some lessons along every now and then. There is a regular semi jam at the Town Hall Pub on Friday nights that you need to check out if you're in Chicago. That's where some of the kids are.

They're also in the coffeehouses, too. Part of the problem is that they have to move some of the old fat guys out of the way to be seen.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 11:31 PM

There there and deeply into DYO and at that last alternative? band practise I overheard, one of my daughter's was covering Dylan's Masters of War. (voice and mandolin), so they haven't totally forgotten folk music.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 01:26 AM

Bartholomew,

Thanks for your kind words. The Chicago folk scene, all the way from the heady days in the late 1950s at the Gate of Horn (nightclub) when I was a kid and just gettin' into it, to the Orphans (a bar) and the Earl Of Old Town (another bar)and Barbarossa (self explanatory) and Holsteins (a cow and a bar)and No Exit (a coffeehouse), well, it was just a great town/scene to be a part of.. I'll never forget it.

Check out BOB GIBSON's biography/autobiography by Bob & Carol Bender (Folk Era is the publisher I think). It's a great look into that mesmerizing world I was honored to be a part of. I'm reading it now, but I'm only on on page 40. When I finish it, I'll do a larger review in a swparate thread. (Comes with a CD which includes Bob's version of "No More Cane On The Brazos".)

Also, another insight into that whole era will be the book Clay Eals of Seattle is writing as we speak on STEVE GOODMAN. It's nowhere near completion yet but it is sure to paint a grand picture of another portion of the Chicago folk music landscape. I can hardly wait to read it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:58 AM

I couldn't come close to finding kind enough, Mr. Thieme. Those times and that place (Chicago, circa 1970) seem so rare and precious in terms of my personal development, and I know I'm one of many who feel that way.

Which brings me to the point of this posting. When I got to play those clubs at that time, there was a feeling that the best days had passed - everyone knew that the 50's and 60's at the Gate of Horn were the hey day of the music - and I had missed it! Shucks. It always seems that the good'l days (see John Hartford, on his Steam Powered Aeroplane recording) are gone, gone, gone. . . The truth is that the past is just prelude. The good old days are right now. And to all the "kids" of all ages that may be reading this I only have one thing to say: don't waste one minute of today regretting what you may have missed yesterday. A look at the past is a good way to get a little context for what you want to do now (I can't wait to get a hold of the Gibson & Goodman books that Art mentioned), but the best is yet to come and the road goes ever on. Personally, I can't wait to see what comes next.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:34 AM

Interesting thread here, as much for what it illustrates about people's perceptions as for what it says about the state of music today. At first I thought it should be titled "why aren't kids today just like we were?" -- or even more accurately, "why aren't kids today just like we like to remember ourselves?" There's a lot of wistful talk about the late 50's/early 60's glory days, and why that isn't happening now. But back then there were plenty of old farts who were pining for their own glory days, and bemoaning the fact that "kids these days" weren't that interested in what had happened during their parents' childhoods. Tom Rush even wrote a song about it, by that very title. Nothing much has changed, really.

I was born in the late 1950's, so I wasn't quite old enough to participate directly in the early 60's folk boom. But I doubt that it was quite as uniformly wonderful as people remember it. I also wonder whether anything being done today would compare favorably to people's memories. Nostalgia is a pleasant thing, but let's not mistake it for the truth.

Shambles had an excellent point -- there's an awful lot of pretension in the folk world today, and kids typically don't have much patience for that. I wouldn't expect most of them to want to hang out in the basements of Unitarian churches listening to an aging Dave van Ronk with people their parents' age, even if that is something us old folks like to do (that's what the "real" folk scene largely consists of in my corner of the world). All the exclusionary talk about "true folk" that tends to crop up in the Mudcat is evidence of this -- whether we're right or wrong in how we define these categories, we should recognize that by being precious and exclusive, we're making the whole genre less appealing to other people (young and old) who may not share our particular view of "authenticity". If we want to be exclusive, we have that right; but that is kind of at odds with the more inclusive approach we like to pay lip service to.

Kids will come to folk music their own way, based on their own influences, whether or not we approve. Some will become intrigued by the acoustic guitar by listening to Dave Matthews, Ben Harper, or even Jewel -- and while old folks like us are looking down our noses at that, they'll be taking their initial introduction and looking for contributing and complementary influences. Ultimately, they'll remember their glory days, when they wrestled the "tradition" away from their stodgy, narrow-minded elders and breathed new life into it. Good for them.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Hyperabid
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:48 AM

Erm...

Not a view to win a popularity contest but...

There are young folkies out there... I was one but having past 30 can't make the claim any more...

A & R men look for sales... Perhaps because the music has deep roots young folkies spend less time on image and markeitng that their contemporaries in other genres do.

A few of our elder statesmen might offer a bit more a lead in terms of how to deal with the marketplace...

(Putting on tin helmet and ducking for cover)

Hyp

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 03:21 PM

Huh?

It wouldn't be the first time I was all screwed up about something but, ya know, I think ther's a much higher quality and ability of musician among young folkies than among young rockers (for a lack of a better description) today. I'm real impressed with some of the trad young'ens I hear 'round about. There's true hope for folk music.

As for young concert goers, I only attend a couple to a few festivals per year but lots of concerts and all are well attended by the comparably youthful. It's a blast to see a crowd of teenagers dancing into frenzyland almost moshpit style at a folk festival, with narry a poser in sight.

Peace and hope, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Rob-IL
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 03:41 PM

I, being at the young age of 19, have just started really getting into folk music... the hardest part for young people I think is that you just don't hear the music enough... My exposure to folk music mostly has been from Jerry Garcia, Bob Dylan, and the Allman Brothers Band... I have always loved the blues and now have found more and more folk songs creeping into my repetoire, and many of my friends hear it and say "that's really cool..." The point is that there are a lot of young kids who like the music, but there isn't enough out in the society to hear... So if the elders keep playing, eventually the people like me will hear, and then we can learn too. The thing is that you have to work to find the music and LOOK for it, if you want it nowadays... I think that it will catch on again and become more popular as kids start to hear some of these old songs... This summer two other kids and I are planning on going into the studio to record some of these songs... I've been eager to hear/play with some other people who know the music better than I do... so if any mudcats are near Columbus OH or are coming through... let me know... or I live in Northern Illinois for the summer (Thats actually where I'm from...) Keep on singing because we're listening...

Rob

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 04:42 PM

Rob - e-mail me when you're back in Northern Illinois and I'll be glad to sit and pick a while if you'd like.

Whistle Stop is right on the money. I have three boys who listen to Dave Mathews, Beastie Boys, They Might Be Giants and occasionally to me and my music. I like the stuff they like and it has helped (I hope) keep me from getting stuck in the same old box I arrived in. My niece and nephews in Toronto have also given me a taste of the Cape Breton music that is absolutely fabulous. The kids are everywhere - so is the music - you just have to be willing to open your ears.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Rob-IL
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 07:17 PM

I will be back in mid June... so I'll try to email you after I get back...

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 08:45 PM

If the kids don't hear folk and blues and whatever else it's not because it doesn't exist, it's because there's no radio, public, or public education support for it, when and where the kids can hear it. Commercial acceptance is a reaction to commercial support and promotion and the result is artistic pablum for the masses.

In my community there a wonderful organization which produces monthly (sometimes more) "coffeehouses" which attracts 150 to 300 people every time, and this with a population of about 7500 not including the surrounding farmland. Live music from local favourites to nationally recognized names, with great desserts, no alcohol, and a featured artist's or craftsperson's work displayed prominently. And guess what, it's popular with the kids.

If someone is never exposed, how will they know they were never exposed? It is the responsibility of the informed to educate the next generation. Don't abdicate this responsibility and allow commercial radio and big record co.'s educate the kids about music.

My $0.02.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:20 PM

Mooh,

Good point. I, also, agree that it is the responsibility of the old to educate the young. Lately, though, when we strive to do that here, we are often called old farts who are mired and wallowing in the non-reality and delusion that must've been running rampant and infecting those of us who were unlucky enough to be exposed to the obviously false attitudes about things folk during the 50s and 60s. I used to fight back more than I do these days. The energy just isn't there now.

Art

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:59 PM

Art, and others, "Fight the good fight with all your might..."

I know what you mean, but maybe it was ever thus. Nonetheless, I plan to go out of here (and hear, pun intended) kicking and screaming and satisfied that the kids will clue in eventually; or not, at their peril. By some freak of nature, even though I went through a rebelious period in my early adulthood, I never had any disrespect or disregard for the music of my parents and other elders. I never liked schmaltz, but church music and classical I loved, right alongside of the Stones and Led Zeppelin. I guess I owe my folks that. But I never saw music as a function of an age, era, or a generation. It was never my parent's music to me, music was and is timeless. This is one place where we are failing the next generation, the classification of music by age, and I think it's worse than classification by genre. It is academic that music has a date, but it doesn't need to be confined by or to that date. The current crop of rock-folk (as opposed to folk-rock) bands like the Paperboys, Slainte Mhath et al are doing a fine job of crossing eras and genres but they are not mainstream. Neither are the scores of fine singer/songwriter types out there mainstream. And maybe too many among don't want to share our little musical world with too many others. Be that as it may, I too get tired of swimming upstream, so I rest sometimes.

My partial solution would be ("If I were King...") arts programs in all grades of public education including music appreciation, heritage and cultures of the world, with a focus on arts (as a contrast to war worship), and more funding for the same.

I hope this doesn't sound too left-wing for people because I don't intend or consider it to be a political issue, and I've gone on too long about it.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 11:11 AM

Mooh,

Good thoughts again. We agree pretty much. Aside from doing adult shows and concerts, my work in the schools---for over 20 years with the Urban Gatways arts-in-education agency program all over Northern Illinois and Chicago---taught me the further truth of your statements. Dan Keding, the fine storyteller who also posted here in this thread, feels very strongly in that same direction. My low energy level that I spoke about is the result of various physical problems---not a diminished burning desire to keep plugging along for and with this music we care about so much.

All the best,

Art

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 05:32 PM

If you're in Illinois, you must have encountered Phil Cooper and Margaret Nelson and Kate Early who do a wonderful job of everything including the historical perspective and relating old songs to contemporary conditions. My own kids think they're great, and I have learned much from them. If you know them or see them, pass on my regards. Thanks.

Peace Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM

Art, et al,

Sorry folks, that last post was intended for Art specifically, but everyone's welcome of course.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: bobby's girl
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 06:00 PM

To see young folk at its best a visit to the Folkworks Youth Summerschool in Durham is a must. There are kids from 10 to 22ish playing, singing and dancing all day and well into the night - sometimes all night. Our own Sam Pirt and his friends got together at Durham, and there are lots of other kids equally as talented. The problem is that when they go back to their home environments, they won't even consider taking their instruments to school, or even admitting that they play something like an accordion or melodian because they are ridiculed by their peers. I know my daughter suffers from this, and she is not alone - she has enough trouble admitting she has a mother who is a Morris Dancer! I think that a lot of trouble these days comes from peer pressure rather than lack of interest.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: bobby's girl
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 06:00 PM

To see young folk at its best a visit to the Folkworks Youth Summerschool in Durham is a must. There are kids from 10 to 22ish playing, singing and dancing all day and well into the night - sometimes all night. Our own Sam Pirt and his friends got together at Durham, and there are lots of other kids equally as talented. The problem is that when they go back to their home environments, they won't even consider taking their instruments to school, or even admitting that they play something like an accordion or melodian because they are ridiculed by their peers. I know my daughter suffers from this, and she is not alone - she has enough trouble admitting she has a mother who is a Morris Dancer! I think that a lot of trouble these days comes from peer pressure rather than lack of interest.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Rob-IL
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 06:02 PM

Mooh: I would like to see Phil, Margaret, and Kate... do you know of any show that they will be doing this summer?

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 10:49 PM

Rob, no I don't, but I also live in southern Ontario, so I can't keep up with them. My wife says to "look under Margaret Nelson" for a website though, that might help you.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Kelida
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 12:09 AM

There are actually a lot of people at my high school that are into traditional and celtic folk music. One of my friends just joined a traditional vocal group (although they do write some of their own songs) and me and another one of my friends are starting another instrumental (for now) band.

Also, My best friend and I went to a show last night where we were the youngest people except for a couple babies and one teenaged guy, and we had a great time. She's 16 and I'm 17, and we didn't think there was anything "uncool" about going to a place where the average age was probably about 50. This was after we spent the afternoon with my grandparents.

I think that a lot of young people just don't realise how very valuable our elders are and how much we can learn from them. The best thing that all parents and grandparents, etc, can do is try as much as possible to just expose kids to history and tradition as much as possible to make sure that the past lives on.

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: GUEST,a little one
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:47 AM

Ok, so I'm not *so* little - 19 - but I loved this thread because I'm glad that you guys are interested in us! My dad had me listening to folk when I was quite small and I loved it then, and knew all the words. Of course, I hit adolescence and disowned everything but the latest fad, but that didn't last long, thank God. Now I'm back to listening to the craziest mix of music - from Nanci Griffith and the Chieftains to Blink 182 and Pearl Jam. I went to a Great Big Sea show about two weeks ago, and I knew just about all the words and had an amazing time. You will all be glad to hear that at that show, standing behind us, was a group of early college-age guys in full "college guy" attire, yelling requests for songs like "Old Black Rum" and "The Jolly Butcher," and singing right along. In specific response to a previous post, I personally like Dave Matthews Band et al. and that sort of music *because* I like acoustic guitar-ish music, not the other way around. I think the music I grew up with has given me this amazing background, which helps me evaluate music on a more global and historical scale. So don't worry - we're here! Just keep playing fiddle and banjo and bodhran in our ear, and we'll catch on eventually. :-) little kc

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM

Right on Kelida & KC! I was at the North Carolina RenFaire a few weeks ago, sitting in the audience while a traditional band played. I was the only one who was singing "Whisky Johnny" along with them...and all the rest of the folks were adults! In my Figure Drawing Class last semester, which includes 3 straight hours of drawing models, our teacher would bring in music so we wouldn't be totally bored...sorry to say I that Etta James DID get rather tiresome after the 3rd time around, so I brought in my Green Linnet Celtic albums and let my teacher play them. I thought that being the modern hardcore-music loving people college students are, that they would find it boring...but I actually got a good response--even from the model! You shoulda seen this one guy improvising along with "Alistair Mhic Cholla Ghasda" by Capercaillie! it was great!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 02:11 PM

We're just finishing our week-long folk festival today. We had some astonishingly great youngsters' groups play this week from all over Alaska, everything from Irish to folk to bluegrass.

Two of the groups got standing ovations- which is not that common an occurrence

And in the audience are dozens of enthralled children. I'm not worried about where our next generation of music will come from! Ebbie

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 02:19 PM

Man....I'm thinking we should have a Mudcat Youth gathering or something!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: selby
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:54 PM

The kid's are out there, the trouble lies in location's and transport unless mum or dad's taxi is available you will not see them (a bit elusive is the younger generation)i'm sure this is the same the whole world over as it is here in the UK. My own son participates in two fiddle groups one through school and music centre with his music teacher who has produced folk based tune books for young musicians. The music centre has approx 30 young violin players whom often play folk music but as their parents are not folkies you will not see them at any festivals. The second is the Wooton Fiddle club where there are a great number of fine young muscians playing folk music but not always going to festivals. There is of course also Folkworks doing good work as well. All we have to be is patient they will arrive. Keith

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: GUEST,Erin
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:42 PM

Hey.. I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but just wanted to say I'm 17 and learning the whistle. I constantly listen to the old Clancy Bros & Tommy Makem recordings, but can't find a soul my age, in my area, who appreciates this stuff. Ah, well. I have to go now, and put on the Spain Brothers to block out the Britney Spears song my sister is playing..

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:45 PM

Well tomorrow night I'll be at the Old King's Head in Belper, Derbyshire with my two eldest, Phillip & Emma. Phillip, nearly 11, is struggling manfully with the fiddle and Emma, 7, has just passed her Initial Grade music exam for the guitar. They are both made very welcome and their playing is always given the same consideration as more experienced and accomplished players. just wish there were more venues like this one! Sapper

Subject: RE: Where are the kids?
From: Wavestar
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:09 PM

I've been meaning to read this thread for some time... just to say, Here! Well, I'm a bit older now, but I've been amazed... all the little kids I knew as a teen, and occasionally mentioned that they should come to a contra dance, or concert... are going to NEFFA without me! (well, so I'm in Scotland... wet walking.)

I do, however, wonder exactly what caught them. I think it was the dancing, and since there's not much to do in our small New England area for young people that doesn't involve getting really drunk, or driving a long way, the contras are pretty popular. I had the advantage of having folkie parents, Saturday nights we'd all sit around and listen to Garrison Keilor, and the few folk programs that were on PR... otherwise, I heard their recordings, borrowed from their collections, listened to my mother sing, and (perhaps most importantly, indeed!) we went to folk festivals... Champlain Valley, although I haven't been in years, Storytelling Festivals, and certainly the Clearwater, which I've worked for the past... 12 years? maybe more. My friends at school thought the idea was cool, most of my peers laughed. But they always laughed anyway.

Now in college, there are enough of us with similar tastes that we group together, we have a session Wednesday nights, in my house, because the pubs don't like us to sing over the footie matches. There's so much young talent to be inspired by, as well... I remember discovering Dar Williams, hearing Rachel Bissex do her "When I was a Boy," and then buying the album, long before she went on Lilith... and meeting her and working with her at Clearwater. Every young performer I've seen at festivals and such, or had the money to buy recordings of, has been very talented, and very inspiring.

I think what has been being said about schools and music teachers is a valuable way to try and get this out there... but my music teachers made valiant efforts with little to no enthusiasm in such a small and sometimes close-minded community.. especially close-minded among the youth. (I understand now why my eccentric family was never accepted. MY BROTHER and I didnt fit it - the adults could deal with my parents, but their kids couldn't.) Not only that, but Peter Amidon and his family even came to us every year... I felt we were lucky, everyone else hated it. Perhaps, if no one can think of a way to spark enthusiasm about what kids don't think is cool (in middle school, anyway), you'll just have to put up with us - the kids of folkies, and all our friends. But I'm not losing hope!

-Jessica