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Scottish Small Pipes

GUEST,Domnull 19 Jan 06 - 07:34 AM
GUEST 19 Jan 06 - 09:45 AM
concertina ceol 19 Jan 06 - 12:20 PM
Folkiedave 19 Jan 06 - 12:48 PM
Little Robyn 19 Jan 06 - 01:56 PM
Pauline L 20 Jan 06 - 12:25 AM
Tootler 20 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM
Tootler 20 Jan 06 - 11:56 AM
Sarah the flute 20 Jan 06 - 02:01 PM
GUEST 20 Jan 06 - 05:36 PM
TheBigPinkLad 20 Jan 06 - 05:38 PM
Sarah the flute 20 Jan 06 - 06:59 PM
Barry T 20 Jan 06 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,eoin o'buadhaigh 21 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM
treewind 21 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM
GUEST 21 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM
Manitas_at_home 22 Jan 06 - 03:36 AM
treewind 22 Jan 06 - 04:24 AM
Bassic 22 Jan 06 - 07:17 AM
Strollin' Johnny 23 Jan 06 - 06:28 AM
manitas_at_work 23 Jan 06 - 07:18 AM
Paco Rabanne 23 Jan 06 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,eoin o'buadhaigh 23 Jan 06 - 09:03 AM
Strollin' Johnny 23 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM
Sarah the flute 23 Jan 06 - 05:17 PM
Little Robyn 24 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM
GUEST,Domnull 09 Feb 06 - 11:06 AM
Sarah the flute 09 Feb 06 - 05:55 PM
Gedpipes 10 Feb 06 - 04:14 AM
BusyBee Paul 10 Feb 06 - 05:45 AM
8_Pints 23 Feb 07 - 08:38 PM
Jack Campin 24 Feb 07 - 02:36 AM
GUEST,Shehzad Afzal Deura 28 Dec 12 - 02:44 AM
John MacKenzie 28 Dec 12 - 06:08 AM
Jack Campin 28 Dec 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 28 Dec 12 - 10:20 AM
catspaw49 28 Dec 12 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 30 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM
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Subject: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST,Domnull
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 07:34 AM

A pal of mine, an excellent keyboard player and a bit of a whistle player, is very keen to get a set of Scottish Small Pipes. I'm a fiddle player, and know very little about the pipes. This is what he writes -

******************
" I'm just about to order my small pipes but I'm in a bit of a awkward spot and would appreciate any advice. The standard for Scottish small pipes is an A set. Almost all are sold in this key and makers reccommend this key. The
problem is the A set is nowhere near as sweet in tone as a D set.
The pipes have their own octave - the D set on a piano plays - D E F# G A B C D - the C being natural. The A set playing the same pattern, ie. a full tone between 7th and 8th.
My worry is that a D instrument may not fit in when playing Scottish/Irish folk music, which seems to be what the makers are implying.
Your thoughts please, "

**************************

This fits in with my understanding that a bagpipe scale has a 'flattened' 7th. Given that a lot of the ITM and Scottish TM that we play is in Dmaj and A maj respectively as well as Emin/Gmaj, any advice would be welcome - he obviously likes the tone of the D set !


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:45 AM

Put a capo on the chanter. :)


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: concertina ceol
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 12:20 PM

tell him to look here http://www.smallpiper.co.uk/ and contact vicki

I think she just got married so he might not get an answer for a couple of weeks. Perhaps some of the advice on the website and the links might help in the meantime


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 12:48 PM

Davie Shaw also knows about these things.

http://www.nspipes.co.uk/nsp/ww5tsh.htm - the blicky maker did not seem to work.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 01:56 PM

Try this

Northumbrian pipes are in a nominal G which actually is F and-a-bit.
Try playing along with others on those! The fiddlers don't like it at all. But the sound is worth it and you either become a soloist or the others learn to play in F.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Pauline L
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 12:25 AM

I heard the Tannahill Weavers in concert recently, and after the show, I asked the fellow who had played smallpipes what key they were tuned in. He said, "B flat," and I said, "Your fiddler must not like that." "No problem," he told me. "The fiddler just tunes his strings up a half step."


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 11:56 AM

Sorry 'bout the empty post. Clicked on the wrong button :-(


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:01 PM

I started learning smallpipes about 6 months ago. Vicki Swan has an excellent online tutor book and there is also another one with a CD available from the Lowland and Border Pipes Society through Jock Agnew.

My pipes are in A and I have found you can play easily with other instruments with a little adaptation. All written dots for highland pipes can be played on smallpipes and that helps with the ornamentation. I've just bought a book on eBay by Dave Rickard which is Irish Tunes adapted for highland pipes.

The most difficult bit is the fingering - the stretch to the bottom takes a bit of getting used to and of course the bellows co-ordination.

Good luck

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:36 PM

There are no such things as Scottish small pipes. Are you talking about Northumbrian pipes?


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:38 PM

Erm ... yes there are: http://www.pipersgathering.org/Scottish%20Smallpipes/Scottish%20Smallpipes.htm


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 06:59 PM

....you could always get an A & D combination set ...lots of makers do those


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Barry T
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 08:50 PM

If you can afford it, Sarah has definitely proposed the ideal solution.

If it's a choice of 'A' *or* 'D', then here are some thoughts...

Assuming that the smallpipe player will want to play with other musicians, including a fiddle player, the choice of 'A' or 'D' smallpipes should be influenced by the most common key in which standard pipe tunes are played *on the fiddle*. Since many pipe tunes migrate from pipe notation into fiddle tunebooks, they transfer across most commonly in 'A' and its related minor.

(Domnull... jump in here with the view from the perspective of a fiddle player!)

In my personal experience, not all other players will be comfortable having to transpose from keys in which they *normally* play the tunes... at least not just for the sake of having the smallpipes join in. Example quote: "Oh... Gee... WE usually play that in 'A'!"

Having said that, I must speak from the other side of my mouth: I have a set of D smallpipes (Gibson Firesides) that I just love. Smallpipes in D fit really well with the fiddle. They're about the same volume (at least the Firesides are) and because of the higher pitch the sound doesn't get lost among the other instruments. Some makes of smallpipes in 'A', though they have superb tone, have a relatively low volume that sometimes gets buried in the excitement of a session. Indeed for some makes, amplification is almost essential for session playing.

I would not recommend smallpipes in 'Bb' if you intend to play with fiddle, guitar, whistle, etc.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST,eoin o'buadhaigh
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM

Why not check with other small pipe makers, your not compelled to purchase, most if not all are very helpful. I suggest you try the likes of Colin Ross who makes Northumbrian and Scottish small pipes or Hamish Moore who makes the small pipes. Both are master pipe makers and are very helpful.
cheers eoin


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: treewind
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 08:44 AM

Also Richard Evans

And what's this about no such thing as Scottish smallpipes?
Anyone who doesn't know can do 10 seconds of free research and avoid embarrassment.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM

These small pipes are not traditional but memrely a new instrument based on the northumbrian pipes.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:36 AM

No, they are not. You can see illustrations of them in Michael Praetorius 'Syntagma Musicum' dating back to the mid 17th century. There is a big revival of them and a lot of experimentation amongst makers but they are not all new instruments and few are based on the Northumbrian pipes.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: treewind
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:24 AM

What's traditional?
You could say most Northumbrian pipes (as played now) are a new instrument based on (pre-Peacock) Northumbrian pipes.
All have common ancestry further back.

Actually it looks as if there was a time when GB was littered with different types of pipes, perhaps as many as there were pipemakers.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Bassic
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:17 AM

Get the combination A/D set by the best maker you can afford for maximum versatility. Hamish Moore seems to be the bench mark in SSP and Border Pipes. If you want more volume in sessions then either play with another SSP piper or look at Border Pipes. Playing in D does help cut through in a session but in my opinion you do loose the best and most distinctive part of an SSP`s sound if you move away from A. Examples of SSP`s have been around for centuries but like all modern instruments, they have been adapted to suite modern standard tunings and materials. The only difference with SSP`s is that this hasnt been the gradual process as with other instruments which have "evolved" over time. SSP`s were virtually extinct and had remained largly undeveloped until 30 years or so ago when pipe makers like Hamish Moore started to adapt and improve the instrument for modern demands and playing conditions based on the developements with other types of pipes over the last 100 years or so. However the instrument is still very traditional in feel with most instruments having few if any "keys" and a very limited range.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 06:28 AM

Are these the same thing as Scottish Shuttle Pipes (as played by Lester Simpson)?? If they are I can vouch for their existence.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:18 AM

I think shuttle pipes are just a more convenient arrangement of the drones. The chanter is unaffected.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:39 AM

If you fancy printing off some scottish pipe tunes try this site - www.nigelgatherer.com


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST,eoin o'buadhaigh
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:03 AM

Basic, Hamish Moore bought his first set of Scottish small pipes from Colin Ross. Colin had borrowed a set of SSP's from a museum and taken the bores and measurements etc and made a set. Since then he has brought the SSP's into modern day tuning so they can be played in with other instruments in sessions. (all subtle changes) Hamish and his brother have also made a few changes (Hamish is a tremendous player) but I believe Colin to be the more knowledgeable of the two.
Colin is semi-retired now but is always available for advice.
cheers eoin


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM

Thanks guys, amazing what you can learn on here.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 05:17 PM

My pipes are by Colin Ross (...got them on eBay Shhhh Don't tell!)


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM

I have Colin Ross NS pipes! He's known as God in piping circles but he has a waiting list of about 2 years.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST,Domnull
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:06 AM

My chum (see original post in this thread) has now taken the plunge and ordered a set of SSP in 'D' from Robin Beck of Kirn near Dunoon. They arrive around Easter but he's getting a chanter this week.

Given their range, any suggestions for tunes for him to kick off with? I could suggest an endless number of fiddle tunes, but the SSPipe cognoscenti amongst you will have a better feel for suitable tunes - ITM/STM tunes that he could pick up fairly quickly (he's already an accomplished musician) and would fit into a session with fiddles/guitar.

Thanks for all the helpful advice.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:55 PM

I think it may take a while to master the bellows technique and then the fingering - quite a bit different from flutes and whistles believe me. Not only is the note formation different but you have to remember the hole on the back and also the spacing of fingers between the notes is different. Vicki Swan's excellent podcast for smallpipes gives great exercises to get practicing on - you have to be patient, it's not an instrument you just pick up and play.

Is he getting bellows blown pipes? If so the chanter won't be playable until the rest of the kit arrives unless it's a practice chanter he's getting. If it's a practice chanter it's most likely to be a highland pipe chanter. If so get a copy of Dave Rickard's book of irish tunes for the bagpipes off ebay for ideas but the finger spacing on this chanter will be different to that of a D chanter for smallpipes.

The BIG problem with tunes for smallpipes is that they can only have 1 octave. Have a look at First Ceilidh Book. Tunes that spring to mind are Corn Rigs, Kate Dalrymple, Merrily kissed the Quaker and with a bit of adaptation Rakish Paddy, Lark in the Morning, Blarney Pilgrim, Gravel Walks.

It's taken my a good 6 months to get anywhere near comfortable with the bellows and I'm now slowly bringing in drones and trying a few basic tunes. The hardest bit is that you need to put in ornamentation fairly early on to get a clean change of note - you can't just slide between notes like you can on a whistle. Those boring finger exercises are a must I'm afraid. Perseverence is the key!!!

Best of luck

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:14 AM

Clearly it depends on what kind of music he wants to play and who he wants to play with .
http://www.dragonflymusic.co.uk/

For some tunes whoch are accessible to the SSPipes you mate might want to access Matt Seattles' site - address above.

You might also want to get hold of the NSP first 3 tune books

Good luck
Blue skies


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:45 AM

Going back to Anahata's post of 22 Jan, yes there were lots of different types of pipes in the country - a visit to the Bagpipe Museum in Morpeth is a real eye (and ear!) opener. Even mentions a set of Lincolnshire bagpipes - someone local has made a set in the last couple of years - they played them on the local radio and a mate of mine who works there had a go - luckily I was in Scotland at the time and missed it! (Yes, Strollin', that was Dylan!).


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: 8_Pints
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:38 PM

Just ordered a set in A from Ian Kinnear (delivery due in June).

Can't wait!!!

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:36 AM

The OP needs to be aware that switching from whistle/flute/recorder/clarinet to the SSP or Border pipes involves a rather mindblowing change in fingering. The fingering system Matt Seattle uses is the one commonest in the early 18th century; it's like the Northumbrian pipes in that most of the time you only have one hole at a time open (apart from the low G hole). The point of it is that the transitions between notes are covered by an implicit low A gracenote. This is completely unlike anything that happens in normal folk flute playing, and also unlike what happens on the Highland pipes (where the basic gracenotes are high G and D).

I've got a set of Border-type pipes on order and meanwhile have been trying to learn this fingering system (e.g. for tunes in the William Dixon MS) on an electronic chanter. The change in mindset is far more extreme than going from tin whistle to Boehm clarinet or flute.

Some players cheat and use "open" or Highland pipe fingering, but the result is that they just sound like a flute player or Highland piper picking up the smallpipes - not very idiomatic in the music that was originally intended for them.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST,Shehzad Afzal Deura
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 02:44 AM

We would like to introduce you Shehzad Deura & Co. This is a family owned business and we are serving our valued customers since 1910. We are manufacturers and exporters of high quality pipe band uniform and accessories. We have high quality professional designer who can make all your custom needs and requirments.We request you to please if you have any enquiry, so once let us have a chance and check our best quality and our most competitive prices. We also request you to please visit our website and see our produced items.Your cooperation in this regard will be much appreciated.

We specialize in products like.... Scottish or Highland Bagpipes, Irish War and Brian Boru Bagpipes, Miniature, Chamber or Parlour Bagpipes, Goose Sets, Minipipes or Toy Bagpipes, Bagpipes Cases, Pipe and Practice Chanters, Reeds and Drones, Drums, Drum Heads, Pipebags, Covers and Cords, Scottish and Irish Dirks, Sgian Dubhs, Banners, Arm Badges, Cap Badges, Family Crest, Flags, Shoulder Boards, Dress Cords, Bugle Cords, Swords Knots, Waist and Cross Belts, Glengarries and Balmorals,Hose Tops, Kitchener Pith Helmets, Feather Hackles, Spats, Sporrans, Tartan Kilts, Tartan Plaids, Fly Plaids, Kilt Pins, Doublets, Tunics or Jackets, Drum Major Maces, Sashes, Guantlets,Ghillie Brogues etc etc.
Our prices are most competitive and reasonable. All orders will be supplied strictly in according to instructions and delivery time requirements. If you have any question, please dont hesitate to contact us by fax or email as soon as possible.
Thank you for your kind attention.

Regards
Shehzad Afzal Deura

Shehzad Deura & Co
8 Commissioner Road
Sialkot 51310, Pakistan
Phone # 0092-52-4580743
Fax # 0092-52-4596486
Emails info@shehzaddeura.com
          shehzaddeura2004@yahoo.com
          shehzaddeura@hotmail.com
Website www.shehzaddeura.com


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:08 AM

Here's the site Interesting stuff.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 09:31 AM

Ask about Pakistani pipes on the Bob Dunsire bagpipe forum.

But stand well back and wear appropriate protective clothing.


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:20 AM

Are they suitable for airs though?

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=148750&messages=25


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:44 AM

I'm all in favor of Small Pipes......and frankly, the smaller the better. Matter of fact if pipes were all small enough to fit in the palm of your hand you could flush 'em all down the crapper and we could be rid of their annoyance!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Scottish Small Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

You are a bright person Spaw aren't you. I see you use a similar line of logic in a lot of your posts.
Ged


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