BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly

Subject: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 07:15 PM

Seems a one-time high ranking official of the Bush admiistration, a loyal officer of Colin Powell's staff has stepped away from the Great Wall of Consensual Silence surrounding the inner workings of the Gang On Top and spit out a few harsh truths for them to swallow.

Larry Wilkerson has paid his price, in terms of ostracism, but he probably sleeps a lot better at night.

The story is here for your enjoyment or chagrin, as the case may be. THe man gets it said.

And before you come flying back here with rebuttals, please read to the end of Page 5. There WILL be a quiz.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 07:41 PM

Wow!!!

Hey, this guy was right there in the "inside" of the Bush power circle in the mad-dash to Iraq and here, if I get this right, he's accusing Bush of lettinga neocon agenda blind his thinking...

And, yeah, I thought that Powell had put up the good fight agaisnt the chickenhawk neocons but this artical seesm to confirm it...'''Like Amos has suggested, this article needs be rerad down to the final word...

Thanks, Amos...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 07:44 PM

That is one POWERFUL article, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM

Whats a "Sojer", Amos???

Soldier, I reckon???

Hope it ain't some French word that everybody in the world knows but me...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:04 PM

I'm glad somebody's speaking honestly.

It's a rare virtue these days for present day and former government officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: leftydee
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM

Thanks, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:43 PM

For they looked sae neat as they mairched away,
the drums they do beat and the pipes they do play,
which maks pair Mary tae sigh and say,
"they're awa' wi' my bonny heilan' sojer".

"Noo I ha'e twenty pound in store,
and I ha'e a hairt worth twenty times o'er
and I'll gi'e it tae the laddie that I adore,
I'm ga'in tae follow up my bonny heilan' sojer".

"O, lassie, lassie yir fortune is but sma',
and what if in some foreign battle I should fa',
when yir far, far awa' frae yir daddie and a'?
be adviséd by a heilan' sojer".

See also this page

And, from the '60's,:

Well, send me please to Viet Nam
I'm a gung-ho fightin' sojer
I've lived my life for nineteen years
And I don't want to get any older
There's a lot of men over there right now
dying for this great land we've got
And as for the vietnamese that die
They don't matter a helluva lot.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:43 PM

It's not 'news' to many of us that it is really that bad, but it is really news when, as has happened several times recently, military men who ought to know say it out loud!

Now Bush has gotten himself in so deep that he almost has to keep faking it, lying to himself as well as us, and spending a few hundred more billions trying to put band-aids on belly wounds.

No matter who we elect this fall and in 2006, we won't recover from this debacle for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:45 PM

See also this Australian tune to the tune of "Waltzing Matilda":

A bold fusilier was marching through Rochester
Bound for the wars in the Low Country
And he cried as he tramped through the dear streets of Rochester
Who'll be a sojer for Marlbro' with me?

Who'll be a sojer, who'll be a sojer Who'll be a sojer for Marlbro' with me....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:45 PM

I think Amos spelled it "Sojer" because he thinks you talk that way, Bobert...
Very interesting article, by the way.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:54 PM

Thanks for posting that, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:09 PM

Hey, not like I'z gonna get on nobody fir their spellin' since I ain't all that good at it myself....

Jus' wanted to be sure that I had it right and looks as if I did...

But beyond spellin' this srticle is the most damning of the Bush administrataion that I have read to date...

Man, this guy was in that inner circle... What is in this article would have broguth Clinton an impeachement....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:26 PM

Utter crap Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:27 PM

Well, Teribus has spoken. Close the thread, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:30 PM

Thanks for posting that, Amos. Pretty impeccable source, I would say.

But it probably won't be long until somebody starts posting stuff about the colonel's sex life. . . .   Care to make book on how many more posts before that happens?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:32 PM

Don, Teribus has already said it's utter crap. Feeling properly chastized, I must vacate the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:36 PM

Ahhh, fir the integrity ans survival of this thread I'd just like to say....

....bite me, T....

Let the thread now continue...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:40 PM

Bobert = Bart Simpson

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:42 PM

Teribus = Mickey Mouse

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:43 PM

And in the game of attrition, you'll lose, because sooner or later you'll give in to the urge to post as Crowbar and f#ck up yer timing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:48 PM

Teribus just don't know how to defend himself.

He's all outa ammunition.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:49 PM

He don't need ammo to shoot his mouth off.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:49 PM

He never has by the looks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:50 PM

Come on Peace!! Bobert has been coming up with that sort of bullshit for years. Those who actually oversee thi site KNOW that that just is NOT TRUE.

By the Bye - "bite me" Bart Simpson quote

A Teribus quote from Mickey Mouse? Or are you just name calling Peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:51 PM

An interesting article, although I'm not sure I'd call it quite "powerful."

The writer found a subject with the potential to know specific information about what went on, but he wasn't able to get the details on that, so instead he wrote a nice article about a retired gentlemen who has "some regrets" and now has fun playing with kids.

(That's the cynics' view.)

Wilkinson's 31 years of military service is a pretty standard career. His combat service is commendable, and perhaps a bit above the ordinary even for a retired career officer.

His grade as Colonel is also laudable, but there are about 2,500 (last I saw a count – some years ago) officers at that level currently in active duty, so he's not all that senior. To complete the 30 years required for retirement with "full benefits" requires, for officers, 30 years with regular promotions, with the result that almost every officer who gets the full-30 in attains that grade.

His experience as a "professor" has been mainly at the military academies, and something like a fourth of career officers of his grade can make very similar claims, since teaching duties are part of regular career rotation of assignments. Finding contrary opinion with similar qualifications should not be too difficult.

It is of significance that he can cite studies, and teaching, in military history; but that's a standard class in the C&GS and other Academy courses where he's taught. He does cite historic characters and references with some facility and claims a specialization in the field, according to the writer; but one would need to "read his book" before assuming he could qualify as an expert witness on the subject. I'd be inclined, with nothing but the article to go on, to say that he does have sufficient special knowledge in the field, and that qualification makes his opinions more relevant for me; but it would depend on what lawyer had him on the stand. And it would be hard to convince any court that "opinion based on historical precedent" is relevant or material.

The difficulty with the article is that while he states some serious concerns, and implies some others, most of this is "opinion" with little in the way of specific facts to which he could, or would, testify. This article provides only vague generalities about how anything he has could be presented and would stand up in a court (or – same thing – before a Congressional Committee, bring your own kangaroo).

The article rates a ".quizical 'W..E..L..L..?'." but not quite a "WOW!"

On the other hand, I can tell that this gentlemen does deserve canonizing (in the popular, not the eclesiastical sense) as at least

a minor god,

and

         as A PARAGON AMONG LEADERS OF MEN,

- because –



he appears to AGREE WITH ME on many of the doubts I've had for quite some time.

The problem is that "*they*" never hear those who care.


* - * Insert anyone who actually matters.

Thanks for posting it, Amos. Read, filed, reread, and indexed. I'd give this soldier a hand salute if I met him.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:52 PM

You took a cheap shot at me a week or so ago. I do not kiss and make up with folks who do that. GFY.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:56 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace - PM
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:52 PM

You took a cheap shot at me a week or so ago. I do not kiss and make up with folks who do that. GFY."

This post for Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:01 PM

"Cept he wasn't just any ordianry soldier, John... He was Colin Powell's right hand man...

That makes all the difference im the world...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:04 PM

Oh Dear Peace - I am so hurt.

Time you damn well grew up son!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:30 PM

You sound like the ant who decided to rape an elephant, T. While he was doing his work, the elephant got hit on the had by a coconut thrown by a monkey and let out a yelp. The ant responded, "Suffer, baby, suffer!".

All the reasons to belittle nullify and suppress do not alter what is happening here, of which this COlonel Wilkerson is a dramatic spokesman for his portion, at least; and I think he is as well or better qualified to assess the quality of leadership in the Gang on Top as anyone alive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:44 PM

Yeah, T... The guy you would dismiss was in the inner circle in the mad-dash-to-Iraq...

Maybe, given yer resolve here, Bush eill bring you into the next inner-circle fro the next war... Or maybe the one after that....

But not to fear, yer in line...

Believe me, yer in line.... Heard it on the streets just this afternoon....

So keep on pluggin' away....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 10:54 PM

I am glad this traitor is not a soldier any longer.

The army and the country will be just fine without him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 11:04 PM

Yeah, I'd pay good money to hear you say that to his face, Martin...

Over 1,100 hours flying a helicopter in Nam, takin' fire every day and you, the chickenest of the chickenhawks here in Mudville is going to put up yet another of yer protests???

Hmmmmmmmmm?

No, I meant, yawn....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 11:58 PM

I would say it to him in a NY minute, pal.

He's not ready to give up his pension over it, is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 12:07 PM

Depends on how hard you press him, Martin; we all have a point where our integrity refuses further compromise, and we say to hell with comfort and speak the truth and shame the devil, as the saying goes...

You haven't reached it yet, obviously. To be honest with you, neither have I, in some respects. Like you I am happy to have a peaceful and profitable life.

But your characterization of this man is wrong-headed; he is being honest in his views, and that is never treason.

Selling a war that is not needed could be, though. Inverting the balance sheet of a nation might be. Leading the country into a deeper addiction to energy sources which require hostility and aggression (or look like they do) could well be so construed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Scotus
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 03:54 PM

When I recorded 'The Heilan' Sojer'I amalgamated a few versions - the words posted by Amos are EXACTLY as I recorded the song! Hhhmmm - - -

Jack Beck

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 03:59 PM

Jack,

They may have been your lyrics, in fact! Since I was just trying to enlighten Bobert about the traditional use of the spelling, I didn't stop for credits. Apologies if so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Scotus
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:06 PM

Hey - nae sweat pal :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:12 PM

"I am glad this traitor is not a soldier any longer.

The army and the country will be just fine without him."

I understand the Nazi leadership said that about Irwin Rommel.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:21 PM

Now how would you understand that? Were you there?


amos, just because he is honest doesn't make him right. And I never open your links.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:30 PM

No, but you do open your mouth quite a lot.

To much less productive result.

You're a very angry guy, Martin. If you were not, your back-trail would not be littered with all those gratuitous insults and foul besmirchments of people on imaginary grounds. You are one nasty piece of work, and I wish you the joy of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:45 PM

Of Colin Powell,

And when he was made aware of the decision otherwise, he became the good soldier that he was. I know how he operates and he would have decided, 'Okay, I lost, and now I'll carry out the decision as best I can' -- and make it seem like it was his decision."

I like that. That is the good soldier. Bernard Law Montgomery pointed out years ago (& I daresay he wasn't the first) that politicians start wars, the military fight them, & the politicians never, ever let the military finish those wars. No wonder we never seem to end up with genuine peace, rather so many more wars waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Arne
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:53 PM

I like that. That is the good soldier. Bernard Law Montgomery pointed out years ago (& I daresay he wasn't the first) that politicians start wars, the military fight them, & the politicians never, ever let the military finish those wars. No wonder we never seem to end up with genuine peace, rather so many more wars waiting to happen.

Problem is that he wasn't a soldier at the time. He was SOS. He had a moral obligation (IMNSHO) to resign rather than engage in what he thought to be a wrongful act.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

Teribus - I've spoken both on your side & for you in the past. In this thread at least, you're a prize muppet. The article may be subjective & questionable (so not unlike a lot of your expressed opinions then), it is not utter crap. You can do better than such a vacuous & bilious remark. If you want to run Col Wilkerson down, at least do him the courtesy of presenting a decent argument (with sources!).

Mr Murdoch - if you're going to use the moniker of "Peace", how about not trolling, eh? (No not even Teribus! ;-) Like T. you can do better than a cheap slanging match.

For what it's worth, I thought the article was interesting. I do not have the political bias to declare it "powerful", nor the inside knowledge to be able to comment upon its accuracy. It does reinforce the need to question the powers-that-be (*any* powers-that-be, not just the current US incumbents), & not blindly accept the official line. Equally, I think, it also reinforces the need to question the antis-that-are, & not to blindly accept regime bashing. I, perhaps, see less criticism of the current US govt than Amos, for instance.

As for Markedly Gibbering, it's no surprise to see you back to your usual poisonous self. A pity the holiday didn't last longer (e.g. permanently). "Traitor" - what a cheap & empty label. So someone says something you don't like. We'll lynch him now shall we...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:06 PM

"Mr Murdoch - if you're going to use the moniker of "Peace", how about not trolling, eh?"

I wasn't trolling. I meant it. But thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:21 PM

Bruce, you *know* what I mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:37 PM

I don't think much of his smile, no -- but I don't hate it. You are mistaken about me, just as you say I am about you. I call your ditto-headism craven, you call my criticism sniveling. You carry on like a hate-filled foul-mouthed psycho guttersnipe, and you call me obsessed because I post the news of Mister Bush's many transgressions against the well-being of the country and the peace of the world.

Your endless carping is useless and boring, Martin. While I rant once in a while, it is always about a new issue, on clear and specific grounds. (Well, I have gotten pretty wound up a few times, I acknowledge that.)

Your song is the same one you sang a few years ago. Check out the back-track, pal. You'll see who is singing the same old s***.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:47 PM

'I do not have the political bias to declare it "powerful",'

The article per se is an OK piece of writing. What's powerful to me is that at last the silence is being broken.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 11:03 PM

"This is not a Republican administration, not in my view. This is a radical administration"

Amen. As I've said more than once on Mudcat. It's more a cabal--that word came to mind even before reading the article--headed by dangerous demagogues. It's only too bad that hate and fear work like a charm when--as in 2004--people are already afraid. Of course it works much better when their education is lacking, as seems to be endemic among Bush voters.

Just consider the answers on this thread by our illustrious Bushites.

Let's see:

Per Martin Gibson--"I'm glad this traitor is not a soldier anymore."

And Teribus: "Utter crap Amos"



Yup, no doubt about it--these answers show the unfettered brilliance of the Bush apologists' minds--absolutely devastating rebuttal--so well argued, yet subtle.

Teribus' answer is right up there with his classic to me (3 Dec 2005 10:11 PM on the WMD thread:)
"Ron Davies 03 Dec 05 5:47 PM -- Fuck all absolutely nothing"

"Ron Davies 03 Dec 05 9:05 AM---Fuck all absolutely nothing"

"Ron Davies 03 Dec 05 8:41 AM---Fuck all... "

Well, you get the idea.


Certainly hope Martin continues defending Bush--he's the quintessential Bush voter, no question-and everybody should see him as such.

And Teribus--well, I'm in awe of such intellectual firepower.

It certainly is true that "fuck all absolutely nothing" and "Utter crap Amos" are unaswerable arguments. Each one has the added benefit of showing all the subtlety for which Teribus is famous, his unrivalled command of English, and addresses all the controversial points with an amazingly deft hand--while also showing everything Teribus knows about the topic.

We wouldn't have expected less from him. Too bad he can't vote in the US--he'd fit right in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Sojer Breaks Ranks, Speaks Honestly
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 11:21 PM

A hit! A very palpable hit!
               —William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act V, scene 2

In fact, two clean hits, Ron! Touché and touché!

Don Firth