BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?

Subject: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,Raphael
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM

UBL re appears when GWB gets down on his luck and gives him a boost.

Could it be that he is really a captive in a secret prison and the CIA makes the tapes?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:30 PM

Doesn't have to be. Anyone could speak into a tape recorder and say anything at all. Then you get some so-called experts to verify the voice. But, yeah, bin Laden helps Bush more than anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:33 PM

I think if Bin Laden were to launch another attack on U.S. soil the entire nation -- not just the small per centage of it now involved -- would rise up and go to a war footing. Because there is no nation per se to go to war with, we would do more invasions and more groping assaults trying to come to terms with the enemy. God knows what the outcome of that would be. I suppose it would depend on whether we did it competently or just brutally. It's hard to got to war against some asshole in a cave somewhere.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:16 PM

Going after bin Laden or Zawahari or terrorists in general with the usual military paraphernalia is a bit like trying to swat mosquitoes with a sledge hammer. Chances are you'll miss the mosquito entirely, and in the meantime, you're creating a helluva lot of expensive collateral damage. If the mosquito you're trying to kill happens to be in someone else's abode, it does tend to piss off your host. He might just wind up preferring the mosquito to you!

(Little parable there.)

Don Firth

P. S. A skilled assassin or two could do the job neatly and quietly, making nowhere near as big a mess. But, of course, that sort of operation, even though it makes for good John Le Carré novels, doesn't make for good headlines, and it's hard for a president to brag about, even though that may be the smartest and most effective thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:15 PM

Here's an interesting twist:

Click

"William Blum's "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" was ranked 209,000 on Amazon.com's sales list before bin Laden mentioned it in an audiotape released on Thursday. By Friday, the book was No. 30 on the Amazon.com list.

"Blum's 320-page book, which was published in 2000, begins with a chapter titled "Why Do Terrorists Keep Picking on the United States." The first sentence says, "Washington's war on terrorism is as doomed to failure as its war on drugs has been."
Other chapters in "The Rogue State" are titled "America's Gift to the World -- the Afghan Terrorist Alumni," "The U.S. Versus the World at the United Nations" and "How the CIA Sent Nelson Mandela to Prison for 28 Years."

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:36 PM

The war on terrorism's greatest contribution will be in fat dividends to stockholders who are invested in weapons manufacturing companies. There is no incentive to "win" the war on terrorism as long as the profits of those companies keep increasing from quarter to quarter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM

This whole terrorist hysteria that the BuShites have whipped up is REALLY getting tiresome. As are the prople that internalize it.

BOGUS!

The chances of any U.S. citizen being killed or injured in an attack by Dumbya's so called "Tay-Wrists" are considerably less than the chances of being struck by lightning.

Want to lose sleep about something? Chances of getting killed or maimed by a drunk driver are pretty damn good!

Of course, terrorist hysteria gets votes for the BuShites & makes certain folks a LOT of money.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 02:08 PM

The so-called War on Terror could be fought at a fraction of the present cost to American taxpayers. But it wouldn't generate the profits it does now.

It's as Don said above. Frankly, I would favour such a solution; I have often stated so. BUT, people waiting for dividend cheques wouldn't be too happy. And so it goes . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: snarky
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 02:31 PM

let the christians nuke it out with the muslims; they deserve each other. I am ashamed to have George Bush as president.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM

Snarky, I doubt that he knows that. I'm sure that if he did, it would make all the difference.

GregF, once again you have shown just what a moron you can be when you put your mind to it. You'd be better off sticking to the factual stuff -at which you are quite good- and lay off the analysis. You usually get it wrong.

Peace, if you know of a better way, why don't you enlighten us. If we like itour idea, we can all get behind it and let our senators and representatives know about it.

Or is this just another instance of rant for the sake of rant.

In order to kill someone, you first have to know where that individual is. bin Laden is holed up in some of the roughest terrain on the planet and he has the support of the locals. People drop out of sight all the time in the Rockies and the Appalacians and they are a walk in the park compared to the mountains of Afghanistan.

Don't let your dislike for Bush overcome common sense.

bin Laden and his people are serious about establishing Islamic (Sharia) Law as the ruling principle for the whloe world. They have stated it repeatedly, their actions back up their statements,and I for one, believe them.

You are free to believe whatever you like and I don't expect that any of you will admit it when events prove you wrong.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,Ironic statement of the year
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:15 PM

>>Don't let your dislike for Bush overcome common sense.<<

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Alba
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:36 PM

...and just as if by magic, Snarl Rove gave a speech on Friday saying that the main "sell" for Republicans in this coming November Election campaign would again be...Homeland security...lol.
...and then as if by even more magic..OBLs mouth piece comes along with yet an another audio tape the day after his Boss releases one...looks as if neither of them are dead yet! The might of the American Military can't find and eliminate TWO men! Please...
Yeah Snarl we are all going forget about Iraq and...., jings I was going to list some of this Nation's other serious problems but I just do not have the time (days are precious and I do not know if there is a limited capacity the length of a post here at Mudcat)..so I will generalize..yes Snarl Rove you talk Homeland Security cause us dumb bastards can be brainwashed into believing that apart from the threat of Terrorism everything else is going really well here in la la land. ...
Damn if this crap was anymore transparent it would be a window.
OBL in my opinion is NOT to be found in the roughest terrain in the World, his minions are there and American and Allied Troops are unfortunately there but OBL..no
Well protected by powerful people that's where OBL is IMO
I do not doubt any of OBL and his followers intentions of establishing Sharia Law. Not for one second.
What I doubt, unfortunately, is the fact that OBL only seems to make an appearance when it suits a Political purpose in this Country.
A distraction from some very serious problems that are beating America down but this is a dangerous game to play.
Crying Wolf is not a intelligent approach to soemthing as serious as terrorism...Folk stop listening after a while and then the real Wolves strike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Alba
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:39 PM

..should say "something"..not "soething"
Just in case the spelling Police are on duty today as they seem to have been around a lot lately:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:41 PM

"soething"

Town in England?

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Alba
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:44 PM

LOL...:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:46 PM

Lemme ask a simple question, OK?

I want someone located and then I want him attended to and don't want his various body parts ever discovered. How freakin' hard is THAT? It's gonna cost a few million. Big deal. Don't Americans see anything wrong with the picture? Is it only murder when it's a person or two, but it's not when the numbers get into the tens of thousands? Keriste. Find bin Laden and blow his brains out. I don't see what the big deal is!

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 04:02 PM

Bush uses bin Laden to personalize the war.

He uses it like a mandala for all his minions and supporters to focus their hate, racism, xenophobia and fear upon. Mr. Bad Guy.

Bin Laden had to come back because if he stays silent and he is not located, the dems can use that as ammo in November that Bush's war is failing on every level. He PROMISED to find bin Laden, he PROMISED to find wmd. His failure to make good on one makes it necessary for him to make good on the other--until the election is over and Mr. Bad Guy slips away again--drat!

His personalizing of the war on terror doesn't work well for him publicly except at election time when it can be used to manipulate the fear vote. That's why the administration decided to go the personalization route. It already got Dubby a 2nd term so it has worked well. But by '08, this war had better be in hand and bin Laden had better be caught in a very public show.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 05:00 PM

To hear everyone talk, after 2008 it's gonna be a Democrat problem, so AR282's last sentence doesn't make much sense.

Oh, you didn't know that Bush couldn't run again? Nope, this is his last term so the talk about terrorism can't be campaign rhetoric, can it.

A possible reason that there hasn't been such a push to find bin Laden is that we have managed to destroy a lot of his network and there are other things that demand more immediate attention like Iran.

I could be wrong. I'm sure that you all have sources of information that I am not privy to. I do recall that Bush said that we would get bin Laden although he wisely didn't name a date. Perhaps that's why everyone is so upset. You need a date so you can plan your social calendars.

I don't, however, recall him promising to find WMDs. But again, maybe I mis-heard.

My interpretation of bin Ladens latest is that we are getting too close and he's worried that we just might find him. He can't go into really deep cover because he is a diabetic and you can't find insulin just anywhere. So he suggests a truce. He has nothing to lose by it and if we were dumb enough to accept, he'd be home free.

We refuse and he can say to the rest of the world, "Well, I OFFERED..."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 06:03 PM

"He has nothing to lose by it and if we were dumb enough to accept, he'd be home free."

Well, maybe and maybe not. It would be worth talking even if only to get harder intelligence on his actually being alive, and if so, his whereabouts. Someplace will increase its i'net/radio/phone traffic. THEN, give him a headache.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 07:21 PM

Well at least he doesn't hide his music income from the government while accepting disability payments.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 07:44 PM

There'll be a media blitz by the Republican mouthpieces to increase the fear factor, hoping to make everyone feel less secure. And it will work. Whether or not intelligence tracking indicates it, the mouthpieces will be warning that bin Laden is poised to attack at any moment, and the only way to counter this attack is to increase security, which for the average citizen will translate to surrendering rights to privacy. Then, after all the rights have been surrendered and no attack materializes, the mouthpieces will claim victory by saying that increased "security" (ie less privacy) thwarted the attacks. But in order to continue our vigilant defense against any further attacks which may or may not materialize, we need to increase security even more (by discovering more ways for government to intrude into average citizens' lives)..and on it goes - a continuous downward spiral into totalitarianism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,Ar282
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 09:31 PM

>>To hear everyone talk, after 2008 it's gonna be a Democrat problem, so AR282's last sentence doesn't make much sense.<<

So, you're already conceding defeat for the republican party in '08? For once, you're doing something smart.

>>Oh, you didn't know that Bush couldn't run again?<<

Really? Wow, you're really smart and everything.

>>Nope, this is his last term so the talk about terrorism can't be campaign rhetoric, can it.<<

Of course it is. The GOP wants to stay in power in '08, dopey. They're not content to let Bush finish out his term and then never ever again run another candidate for president.

But if this war is still going in '08, that is pretty much what will happen.

>>A possible reason that there hasn't been such a push to find bin Laden is that we have managed to destroy a lot of his network and there are other things that demand more immediate attention like Iran.<<

The reason is because we aren't looking and we never have looked. He's a scarecrow--as long as he's out there, Bush and pubs always have him to fall back on. But if they don't find him before '08, the public is going to figure they're at least as inept as they perceive the democrats to be and there's going to be a radical shift in power.

>>I could be wrong.<<

Now, now, we all know that could never happen.

>>I'm sure that you all have sources of information that I am not privy to. I do recall that Bush said that we would get bin Laden although he wisely didn't name a date.<<

Well, yeah. That would be very stupid even for Bush.

>>Perhaps that's why everyone is so upset. You need a date so you can plan your social calendars.<<

I think everyone is upset because Bush is making way too many promises that he cannot keep. Everyone is just slightly ticked off that some 1800 troops have died since major combat was declared over some 3 years ago by your illustrious commander-in-chief.

>>I don't, however, recall him promising to find WMDs. But again, maybe I mis-heard.<<

He promised several times so you probably just weren't listening.

>>My interpretation of bin Ladens latest is that we are getting too close and he's worried that we just might find him.<<

We aren't even looking. He's worried we're not going to find him. He's a hero as long as he is a fugitive and as a hero he has influence. The last thing he wants is for the U.S. to forget about him.

>>He can't go into really deep cover because he is a diabetic and you can't find insulin just anywhere.<<

Of course he can go into really deep cover. His minions will bring anything and everything he requires.

>>So he suggests a truce. He has nothing to lose by it and if we were dumb enough to accept, he'd be home free.<<

The idea of bin Laden offering a truce is so foreign to his way of thinking that you know this whole thing is fakery.

>>We refuse and he can say to the rest of the world, "Well, I OFFERED..."<<

That doesn't score him any points with anybody! Why would he waste his time doing that?? The whole thing is a lie. It's the administration's attempt to make Cheney look less like the fool he is when he stated the insurgency was in its last throes a million years goes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:09 PM

Ar282,

Since most of your post is a rather juvenile effort at sarcasm, I'll only reply to the last statement.


bin Laden will make points with the Muslim world which he needs to keep the support coming.

Your interpretation is based on your hatred of anything that has George Bushs name on it.

Mine is based on a very real knowledge of just what the bin Ladens of this world are capable of.

You must feel very secure and powerful in your little world where you have all the answers.

I wish I were as confident.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:13 PM

Troll, you and various others have repeatedly said that "Bin Laden and his people are serious about establishing Islamic (Sharia) Law as the ruling principle for the whole world".

Yeah. Uh-huh. Perhaps they are. That's what they say, is it?

Well, given the fact that that is an idea about as realistic as...converting the whole world to Catholicism...or...replacing the automobile with the camel...or...getting the whole world to become vegetarians and join nudist colonies and worship Jerry Lewis...why does it trouble you so much? (grin)

Why not worry about the far more likely things that could happen, such as another war or another terrorist attack of a really large sort in the USA? (not that I'm implying you don't worry about those things...but...)

I mean, really, it's just ludicrous for anyone to imagine that he can convert the whole world to his religion at this point in history, and it rates a great big laugh. It is not what springs to my mind as the most worrisome thing about Mr Bin Laden, because it's patently impossible to do it. So WHAT if he says he intends to do that? Keep your mind on the real situation on the battlefield and you are in a position to formulate real strategy, right?

What Bin Laden would like to do, realistically speaking, is this:

1. Get foreign troops out of Saudi Arabia. (And why wouldn't he want to do that?)
2. Get western military forces out of the Middle East. (and why wouldn't he want to do that?)
3. defeat or destroy Israel (here's where his gameplan starts becoming quite unrealistic. The Isrealis are armed to the teeth and they have nukes. They will not go down without taking Mecca, Medina, Cairo, Tehran, and the rest of the Arab world with them. I imagine Osama knows that, so how is he going to get around it?)

Beyond that, Bin Laden is just blathering at the mouth in a way that sounds good to his followers. No one is going to convert the whole world to one religion, and anyone who says he is going to is either insane or is just making a big noise to impress other people and rally support.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:20 PM

Hmmmm. Did you say: "Beyond that, Bush is just blathering at the mouth in a way that sounds good to his followers. No one is going to convert the whole world to one system of government, and anyone who says he is going to is either insane or is just making a big noise to impress other people and rally support." ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, actually, that DID pass through my mind, Ebbie, but I left it to you to say it. ;-)

That's the fact of the matter. This idiotic "War Against Terrorism" has been perpetrated by 2 sets of equally unrealistic and messianic people. The Islamic fundamentalists on one side and the American neo-cons on the other. They both have every intention of dominating the world with THEIR way of doing things, and they are both going to fail miserably in the end, because the world is just not that easy to dominate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:56 PM

Little Hawk, the fact that Bin Ladens goal of the world under Sharia Law may not be realistic, but it doesn't mean that he and his merry band won't try. And in that trying they can hurt a hell of a lot of people.

You can make all the jokes and disparaging remarks you want to, but take a look sometime at where the World Trade Center USED to be. Now imagine if they had used a suitcase nuke.

Fifty years ago I would have agreed with you but the times have changed.

troll

Btw, they don't want to convert everyone. They just want the world to be under Islamic Law. The so-called Neo-cons are not fanatics. They will know when to quit. The Islamic Fundamentalists will NEVER quit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 11:09 PM

I do imagine these things, troll. I frankly expect a nuke to go off in some American city in the next 10 years or less. I think the chances of that are better than 50/50, and I do not think the War on Terrorism will accomplish one thing to stop it, it will simply hasten the day forward, because the War on Terrorism is creating more and more bitter terrorists every day.

I think the corporate world IS fanatical...about profits. All else can go to hell for profits. That's as dangerous as any crazy religion ever was. Matter of fact, it IS a religion. Its God is Money. That's just plain stupid. We human beings invented money! It's not real, it's just an idea (like most religious notions).

The people who seek profit do NOT know when to quit. That has been proven already 1000 times over. A million poor people somewhere can suffer and die, because the people who build and buy the stealth fighters are living in mansions, and everything looks just fine to them...they eat steak and caviar...they drive Jaguars. They send suckers like us overseas to die in some useless war, and they created hatreds that rebound on us back in our own streets and cities when the powerless hijack an airplane and strike back.

The War on Terrorim is not protecting you and me, troll. It's endangering us. The real solutions to what's going on out there in the world haven't even been tried yet.

You are incorrect to think that only the "other side" is irrational. The whole damn situation is irrational...as was the First World War, for example. People died for nothing. More are going to die for nothing. You don't end hatred and fear by killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

IMO, America is in deeper difficulty than a nuke in the next ten years. The Neocopns need something sooner. Perhaps a 'manufactured' situation, perhaps a real one. I think it's a make-or-break time for them. Their momentum has slowed considerably over the past eight or so months. I agree on this with Troll. We think differently about WHY it may happen, but basically not about whether or not it will. The confluence of an attempt to modify the Constitution and a political embarrassment in Iraq speaks to the need for the NCs to get back to their agenda and it's becoming increasingly difficult to deal with the opposition from Congress, parst of the media and many people in the general public. I don't know exactly what it adds up to, but I don't think it's good.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 11:54 PM

Toll, you say, "The so-called Neo-cons are not fanatics. They will know when to quit."

Please tell me when the neo-cons have ever quit anything. My experience tells me that it is the Neo-cons who are trying to create a new world order and that they will stop at nothing. They have lied to the American people, they cheat, steal and commit murder. What makes you think that the neo-cons are any more righteous than fanatics anywhere?

At least Bin Laden wants to talk. I think that it should be seen as a step towards peace. He has been "flushed out" and is holding a white flag. Knowing the neo-cons, they will shoot him anyway.

We, on the other hand, have offerred no real solution to the problems in the Middle East. Since Bush can't figure a way out, I think we should listen to what Osama has to say. What harm is there in that? Isn't talking the way you arrive at a truce?

No, Bush would rather wait to see if Bin Laden will attack the U.S. again. So what, life is cheap. Why should he waste his time with scum. Besides that, one more attack and he'll be able to proclaim martial law and the people will praise him for it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,bicks
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:07 AM

I think as this war progresses, so does the likelihood of an attack. Right now, the strategy doesn't seem to support it and so they won't waste resources on ot. If terrorists had anything ready to go, you'd think they'd have used it in conjunction with Katrina--something that could have been utterly crippling.

Everything is escalating, everything is more. As Iraq produces more terrorists with more weapons, an attack based more on symbolism (as 9-11 largely was) becomes more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:51 PM

Peace be on Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,Allah
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:01 PM

Peace on you too Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM

Well, I agree with LH that the BUsh led War on Terrorism will only insure that it will never end...

Look at the 9/11 Commission's report card... Lots of stuff weren't dollar and cents stuff so you can't blame all of Bush failing grades on money...

One of the most important things that this "bi-partisan" commision recoomened that Bush couldn't care less about is asking ourselve, "Why do these people hate us?" (paraphrased, but that was the essence of recommendation).

Bush couldn't care why they hate us as long as they continue hating us!!?!?!?!?.....

(But, Bobert, why wouldn't Bush want to fight this was by looking into why these folks hate us???)

Elementary, Watson... The War on Terrorism is just another neo-con smoke screen to keep the American people's attention away from the fact that while they think it's the bin Ladens of the world that reprsent their greatest threat, it's actually the unlimited access of corporations to the governemnt "of the people"...

Better hide yer wallets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:24 PM

Yes, it's a smokescreen...but does Bush himself know that? I think he probably believes his own rhetoric for the most part. His handlers...that's a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM

I hear THAT, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:07 AM

I think Bush knows that its a crock of shit but money talks. He also likes the fame.

Stephen Harper is the same. Fame and power (money)!

Immoral, money mongers.

Haven't we heard this story before?

We need a saviour!

Subject: RE: BS: The Boogey Man Returns. Another attack?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:32 AM

Bobert, why do they hate us?

Because the West stopped the Islamic drive for world domination in the 15th century. They (bin Laden and Co.) have re-ignited those fires and promised the Muslim world a return to the dominance that they once enjoyed. It is their right and their duty.

Do you not remember the outrage from the Muslin world over the use of the word "crusade"? They have long memories and their religion has not evolved for hundreds of years.

The Christian church was much the same before the Reformation and even now we have Fundamentalists like the Reconstructionist Church who want to make the US a theocracy ala the Taliban

Get over your white, liberal guilt and face a few facts. No truce and no apology of any kind will stop bin Laden and anyone who thinks it will is deluding themselves.

troll