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BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?

GUEST,Zach & Stephanie 23 Jan 06 - 07:50 PM
Peace 23 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Jan 06 - 08:08 PM
Peace 23 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 06 - 08:51 PM
Bert 23 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM
tarheel 23 Jan 06 - 09:27 PM
Once Famous 23 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM
Peace 23 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM
Rapparee 23 Jan 06 - 10:08 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jan 06 - 10:08 PM
Peace 23 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM
Rapparee 23 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM
wysiwyg 23 Jan 06 - 11:35 PM
Troll 24 Jan 06 - 01:13 AM
kindaloupehackenweez 24 Jan 06 - 02:02 AM
Clinton Hammond 24 Jan 06 - 08:50 AM
mack/misophist 24 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM
kindaloupehackenweez 24 Jan 06 - 10:00 AM
*daylia* 24 Jan 06 - 10:22 AM
number 6 24 Jan 06 - 10:34 AM
Bobert 24 Jan 06 - 10:39 AM
kendall 24 Jan 06 - 10:40 AM
*daylia* 24 Jan 06 - 10:42 AM
Clinton Hammond 24 Jan 06 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Dog lover 24 Jan 06 - 10:49 AM
Peace 24 Jan 06 - 10:57 AM
Jeri 24 Jan 06 - 11:00 AM
Peace 24 Jan 06 - 11:03 AM
Rapparee 24 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM
Peace 24 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM
kindaloupehackenweez 24 Jan 06 - 05:57 PM
Peace 24 Jan 06 - 06:06 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Jan 06 - 06:20 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jan 06 - 06:24 PM
kindaloupehackenweez 24 Jan 06 - 06:31 PM
Troll 24 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Jan 06 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jan 06 - 07:04 PM
Troll 24 Jan 06 - 07:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 06 - 07:50 PM
Troll 24 Jan 06 - 07:58 PM
Sorcha 24 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 06 - 05:56 AM
*daylia* 26 Jan 06 - 11:52 AM
M.Ted 26 Jan 06 - 04:42 PM
Rapparee 26 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM
*daylia* 26 Jan 06 - 10:49 PM
*daylia* 26 Jan 06 - 11:05 PM
Rapparee 27 Jan 06 - 09:13 AM
*daylia* 27 Jan 06 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,*daylia* 27 Jan 06 - 12:58 PM
M.Ted 27 Jan 06 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,AR282 27 Jan 06 - 05:10 PM
kindaloupehackenweez 28 Jan 06 - 12:33 AM
M.Ted 28 Jan 06 - 01:33 AM
*daylia* 28 Jan 06 - 07:31 AM
kindaloupehackenweez 28 Jan 06 - 09:46 AM
M.Ted 28 Jan 06 - 04:03 PM

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Subject: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: GUEST,Zach & Stephanie
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:50 PM

How can people be so cruel to animals. I saw someone shot a swan through the neck with a cross bow yesterday. It's the sixth such attack on a quiet lake. Last week I read someone tied two cats inside a wood bag and the died fighting.Then today I heard of an old horse called Gloria standing in a field and in the dark of night someone shot it in the rear end. What kind of world are we living in. In 46 years I have never heard of such sickening attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM

That is fairly common I'm afraid. I had to shoot a cat to put it out of its misery many years back because some kids had hurt it. There are some seriously sick people around.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:08 PM

Given the shit we do to each other, often in the name of love or Gawd or whatever, that we treat animals just as bad or worse surprise me not at all....

Have you not met "The Human Race"?


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

Clinton, you remind me of Mark Twain more and more.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM

Could be a lot worse, I guess...

I guess...


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:51 PM

Saying "it's just how people are" isn't really good enough, because most of the time, and with most people it just isn't like that. You'd have to lean pretty hard on most people to make them do anything like that. There are reasons why people do seemingly motiveness things like that to animals, and to other human beings.

And I don't think saying "it's because they are evil" helps either. True enough to describe the people who do stuff like that as evil, on the basis of what they have done, but that's a label that arises from their actions, it doesn't do much to explain where the actions come from.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM

It's not a new thing. Way back in the early Fifties we lived near a lake.

There were a pair of swans there named Billy and Dilly.

One day a few soldiers came down from the nearby army camp and caught Billy and they hanged him.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: tarheel
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:27 PM

wanna see some really cruelty to Animals?...Watch Animal Planet,on cable tv...
it's some terrible stuff to know that folks trerat their pets that way...
tar...


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM

There are laws against cruelty to animals, and every once in a while I do hear a news story that there have been punishments, fines, and even jail time given out.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM

"Studies conducted in other parts of Canada indicate a similar situation. In a Winnipeg Study, 78% of those charged with animal cruelty had also been charged with violence or threats of violence against people. Over 60% of 39 women who had been abused by their partners and were living in women's shelters in Hamilton and Owen Sound said their pets had either been abused or killed by their partners."

From an SPCA website. Many studies done around the world indicate the above to be true (those who abuse animals often also abuse people).


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:08 PM

Six cattle were shot out here last summer, the summer before five had been. The ranchers posted a US $10,000 reward, but I haven't heard if it's been collected or not.

A woman and her boyfriend, back in Ohio, decided to party one three-day weekend. So that they wouldn't be interupted, they put the woman's two-year-old son out in the garage. The garage was unheated, the temperature averaged -14 F. that weekend, and the child froze to death.

Back in the mid-60's my friend Niles and his family kept a bull. Not a high-class stud bull, but just a bull to "freshen" their cows for milk. One day someone shot the bull in the hindquarters with birdshot; but the time the family found it the wounds had become infected and the bull had to be put down.

Just this past week the story of Nixmary came out of NYC. I'll leave you to find out about it.

In Nevada a bunch of wild horses were shot. The people responsible were found and sentenced to prison, as well as fined.

I have no patience with those who are unnecessarily cruel to people or animals. They are something less than human and should be treated as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:08 PM

Yeah, there was a case like that in Toronto a few years back. People who are violent to animals are definitely a serious risk to other people as well. They don't observe normal boundaries.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM

Nixzmary Brown--read it and weep.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM

William Hogarth, in The Four Stages of Cruelty, had it right: those who are cruel to animals easily end up cruel to people. And if you don't know this set of works, I suggest that you don't look it up if you are squeamish.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 11:35 PM

Arm Gloria.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:13 AM

Itt isn't hard to figure out. Add a sense of entitlement to the idea that it's always someone elses fault.

Then stir in the attitude that anyone that isn't YOU doesn't merit any consideration, marinate it in video games and serve it with a sauce of "reality" TV.

I don't wonder why people are so cruel to animals. I wonder why so FEW are.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 02:02 AM

because there are conscienceless, because they lack conscientious opposite of conscientious objector and conscionable and conscious.

Many years ago 10-15. The free roaming chickens were eatting and keeping my dog (at the time, named Herbie) from his own dog food. So whole heartedly said.

Herbie what the hell ya letting thous chickens eat your doggie nuggets. And did a kick like shew at the chickens and told him "Dont let them chickens", as he watched me.

The next morning i wake up and open the curtains on the windows only to see my prize banttee chickens laying lifeless in the backyard with one or two still moving around (but not going anywhere). And him presantly mulling one about.

Still half asleep and P.O.ed to high heaven, grab the ole smoke pole and placed a cap on the nipple and did him in.../....

And before the smoke cleared as strange feeling came over me. And i knew i did wrong. And it caused a 180 degree change in my life and the way i looked at life and the creatures for which we share it with.
I knew it was wrong and immense weight of shame came over me and soar that from that day on i would never kill anything that wasnt ment for the supper tabel and knew that the day would come when Karma would seek justice in the here and know and that i'd also be held accountable when judgement day came.

I know that everything that lives, breaths, and moves, and grows. Has just as much right to be here as i do. And again i say "I'm so sorry Herbie"

Reminds me also of the line in the move Gladeator, Russell Crow saying "The way we live this life will follow us thru interity.

Yet stem cell research is still a pounder. For what would you do if a broken back, diabetis, or other debilatating disability that could be cured at the scarfice of another. People do it for people.???

Bad Karma did come to me a bit more than 4 years ago of which i will never recover from and i except it for that day i pulled a trigger without thinking and all the senselessness i've done prior to that day.

Incidently Herbie a husky retreaver which i brought home one night after work for found him homeless and sitting on the step of the municiple liquor store. Which no one claimed and commented to have seen woundering aimlessly along with a brother of his (which was given to a friend and ended up getting struck by a passing vechicle about a year later for the going to close to the road.,) Had mated up with our presant mini dobberman. And she born 9 puppies. 2 males.(the first born which she kept shewing out of the nest till chilled to no return, total rejection and unexceptance) only to allow the other 8 to continue, leaving one male which i calmed (dispite allready having a dog and against the wishes of my better half at the time) and gave his sisters away. all black and tan except one completely peach colored one.

Herbie lives on in his son Herbie jr. and will be 12 years old on April 16th and never missed one dispite being disconnected from the last better half. And hes smart and communicates so unbelieveable i think of him as another human and have commented that he has more feelings that most humans. Still loves frisbee games and fetching sticks. And he has his dads head, and manneriziums. Peaceable and passive for thats how he was brought up.

And as a matter of fact last christmas was watching the house of the "X" so someone would be around to keep an eye on things and feed the dogs, (The "X" has a beautiful little dotson i love and she me). one night around 1:00 am herbies barking away on the deck. I get up open the sliding doors, Poke my head out. Heres the neighbor dog eatting herbies food out of his dish on the deck about 5 feet away.
I shewd it away with a loud sudden holler, but was back again the next night. Now herbies food comes in at night.

I've actually have seen him laying on the deck sunning himself in the summer sun with his chin on his paws starring down the deck and some 6-8 feet away is a chickmunk chowing down on a doggie nugget stolen from herbies dog dish and there they sit starring at each other no one really all that concerned. For i always usta tell Herbie "Chickmunks" are our friend" He's such a good doggie and i miss seeing him and Krissy (dotson) on a dayly basis.

kindaloupehackenweez


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:50 AM

"it doesn't do much to explain where the actions come from."
If you need it explained to you, what a sad, scared, violent, disgusting creature a human is, you're more blinkerd than even I gave you credit for...

"Watch Animal Planet,on cable tv.."
Animal Cops... at least you get to see some of the SOBs get what they deserve...


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM

One of the 3 childhood behaviours that can be considered a harbinger of violent adult psychopathy is cruelty to small animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:00 AM

Perhaps incommunicado.

Perhaps obtuse.

Perhaps a walking, talking, oxymoron.

Any or all havent stopped me before.

Perhaps in the wild its a fair means of conservation practices. Which would you choose if starving due to over population or disease ridden to the point, you begin to loose your mind. Or incapacitation, wallow and waif? Its a sad thing to witness. Surly, hopefully, some "cat" will call Dr. Convorkian for me.. Please.

A meat eatter? what did Jerry Garcia sing about eatting meat killed by the hands of others?

A heart is not judged by how much we love, but how much we are loved by others.

How can we be complete, if not alittle bit of EVERYTHING.

An "X" fur and occassional minnow trapper.

Also flies, mice and shrews that trespass (as well as the occassional bat) meet an early demise.

PEACE


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:22 AM

Children do need guidance in their treatment of animals. I don't think very young children understand that animals feel fear and pain just as they do. In my experience, very young children treat animals as objects unless directed otherwise. And it's certainly not hard to teach them otherwise, although not all parents do this!

In my family, I think the first lesson in this regard was "Thou shalt not kill". Along with a little karmic instruction (although it wasn't called this in a Christian home) ie "How would you like it if someone or something did that to YOU? Keep it up and someday soon, someone will. Guaranteed."

And of course, a bit of discipline helps if the child just doesn't get it. Cruelty = loss of privileges seems to work very well.

When a child grows up with bad modelling as to how to treat animals (indifference, disrespect, cruelty), it learns to do likewise. Put this basic lack of compassion and empathy for animals together with a social environment that encourages hunting/fishing for sport, or one that farms animals for food (torturing them in the process) -- and there you have it. No animal will be safe around a person like this.

Truthfully, I can't believe how many parents, in these modern "enlightened" times, still allow their children (especially boys) to torture frogs and insects, kittens and puppies, to shoot birds and small creatures just for the "fun" of it. When parents turn a blind eye to such behaviour, or even condone it -- well, it kinda makes me sick.

And you folks are right. People who are violent with animals are usually violent and abusive with humans too, including themselves. Case in point -- two weeks ago an long-time acquaintance of mine committed suicide with a hunting rifle. He choreographed his own death in such a way as to hurt his soon-to-be-ex-wife as much as possible -- including shooting, maiming and killing her little puppy before he killed himself. (Her kitten must have hidden itself; he'd promised her he'd kill it too).

THis was a man who'd hunted, just for fun and not out of necessity, all his life. Like his hunting buddies, he seemed to consider the killing of innocent animals the absolute epitome of "manliness". He couldn't even look at a wild animal without talking about killing it, or actually doing so. Any sparrow, squirrel, rabbit or raccoon who dared to set up shop or "trespass" on his property was fair game. I never understood why he just couldn't leave them alone. His property was always strewed with the parts of the dead animals he'd hunted --- decomposing deer heads, turkey legs etc etc. Disgusting, really -- but not for him, obviously!

Anyway, he is gone. And the poor dog is gone too. And to tell you the truth, what he did to himself is awful enought, but it bothers me a LOT less than what he did to that innocent puppy, and to all the other creatures that suffered and died as victims of his favorite "sport".

But hey, maybe I'm just confused with grief still -- and angry too. :-(

Thanks for listening,

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:34 AM

Go to a Greyhound race track ... if you could, take a look at the hounds back in the kennels.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:39 AM

The scarey part is that one common beahvio associated with folks who go on to murder people is that many of them started with other animals...

Reminds me of the 'mutt" thread (no, not the dog) thread where the author talks about the foolks in Wardenville, WV who work at Pilgrims Pride using live chickens as soccer balls...

Yeah, this speaks more to the social ills of the society on the whole than the isolated incidents which I'm sure have always occured...

Time to stop children
what's that sound
Everybody look
what's going down...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:40 AM

Mankind. God's most nobel creation. Bollox!


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:42 AM

PS   I didn't mean to attack all hunters by what I wrote above. Some hunters do hunt for food and other necessities, and that's fine by me. But hunting or even fishing or using birds and animals for target practice, just for sport? NOtta chance!

I'm the kind of person that won't kill unless I absolutely must - except for mosquitoes, houseflies, and one wood rat that just refused to vacate my kitchen years ago. Even spiders in the house get captured and released outside instead of squashed. I must say that my 3 kids (all male) still rib me a bit about this, but y'know what? NONE of them are violent, all respect animals (except for teasing cats, I guess), and none would hunt or kill unless their very lives depended on it. Ditto even for fishing. And that's because they really suffer when they cause suffering -- that's how they were raised.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:45 AM

God... Mankind's most bolloxed creation...

"hunt for food and other necessities"
Eat what you kill
Kill what you eat


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: GUEST,Dog lover
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:49 AM

I see that most cruelty is against dogs. People not putting up with barking dogs throughout the day or night. I have a dog at the house behind mine and it barks non stop. I asked the guy how owns it to do something and he said F... off. I contacted the local council and they wrote him a letter they said. I contacted them again and they said they would need to fit sound recording equipment and take him to court, this rarely gets to court.I am at my wits end with this barking, has anyone any ideas ?


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:57 AM

Unless one is a vegetarian, it's very difficult not to contribute to cruelty to animals. (I'm not slaggin' anyone.) When I hunt it is for food because I need it or a family needs it. The last time I hunted for sport was forty years ago. I killed three members of a five-member family of raccoons (helping a farmer out) and I realized I was enjoying myself. I quit hunting for 'sport' that very day. I will never do that again. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:00 AM

When a person feels powerless, they hurt something. That's not a justification, it's just why I think cruelty becomes acceptable to some, and why it may seem to be increasing. In the minds of the weak, cruelty is what passes for strength.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:03 AM

Go back to council. Get on the agenda at the next meeting. Raise shit about it. Also, write to your local paper. See if other neighbours are bothered by the noise and have them go with you to the council meeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

Thank you, Daylia. I was going to take you to task for tarring hunters with the same brush as slobs and lesser beings.

If you shoot an animal you should "honor" it and eat it to make it part of you. Otherwise the spirit of the animal is wasted and it WILL come back and work against you. If this sounds like superstition, so be it -- but I've seen this sort of thing happen over and over to those who waste a life.

So, Peace...why didn't you eat those raccoons? Unlike possum they can be good food.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM

I did. Greasy as all get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 05:57 PM

Hello Guest aka "Dog Lover"

My first suggestion but not a serious one. Is to lure the dog over to your fence. During the cover of darkness and slip a shock
dog coller over its head and strap it to its neck and slip back in doors and take over the show for i know what you mean.

But my most adviseable suggestions is to get a hold of the book;

"Dog Speak" by Bash Dibra with Mary Ann Crenshaw.

How to Learn it, speak it, and use it to have a happy, healthy, well behaved dog.

Mainly a reinforcement style of training dogs. And no dog is too old to learn new tricks.

Then after reading it, give it to the neighbor as a "neighborly guestor" It cant be any worse than flipping him the finger.

"Daylia" No truer words spoken. although i'm living prouf of the possiblity of change. And what a sad story of the hurt and confused man.

"Repaire" Raccoon need have all the grease boiled out first prior to placeing in the oven.

Porccupine usta be protected for there one of only few (if any) animals in the wild that can be run down and eatten raw without the risk of picking up parosites. That other animals can give you if not cooked properly, such as that of pork... Survival Food
But roasted in the oven is difficult to distinquish from beef.
finnally got thru and dont see my last entry. 3 hours now. time to run spybot. Will caught ya at Mother thread. PEACE


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:06 PM

'"Repaire" Raccoon need have all the grease boiled out first prior to placeing in the oven.'

THAT was the mistake. Thank you for the info. If I ever eat it again in future I'll do just that. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:20 PM

Rodeo.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:24 PM

Regarding the barking dog...

You can do a mental exercise where you tell yourself..."it doesn't bother me anymore when the dog barks". Yeah, I know, it's not easy. But it is possible.

Now that you've totally rejected THAT idea...(grin)...here's the next idea: If it's at night that it's bothering you, then get some device that emits a moderate level of "white noise" in the bedroom and that will screen the barking sounds (hopefully). I've done this with a humidifier. Works rather well at damping the sounds from outside (no pun intended).

You can get used to things. When I stayed in Trinidad I was kept awake for the first 3 nights by literally HUNDREDS of dogs barking (at unpredictable but frequent intervals)...ALL NIGHT LONG...along with roosters crowing all goddamn night long...and the maniac just down the hill playing LOUD music on his stereo starting at 5 AM every day!

Unbelievable. And there's no window glass there, so you hear everything full volume.

Well, after 3 nights of no sleep I got so exhausted that on the 4rth night I just fell asleep and slept through it all...and after that it never bothered me again. Amazing what the human mind and body will do when they're desperate enough, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:31 PM

WHAT A GOOD STORY LITTLE HAWK.

Still chuckling in out burst and slapping the knee..

Good visuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM

Do the same with a 'possum or groundhog.

My grandfather uase to catch a 'possum and put him in a pen and feed him table scraps for a couple of weeks to "clean him out" before boiling and then roasting him.

Pretty good eating. He was an avid hunter but not for sport. He always ate what he killed or caught.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:54 PM

The analogy of cruelty to animals spilling over into humans has always struck me.

In Hitler's Germany, the animal experimenters were given carte blanche to carry out the same experiments on humans. Did they flinch in their duty? Not at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 07:04 PM

Did the soldiers at Abu Grahib flinch in doing their duty? Did the pilot of Enola Gay flinch in doing his duty?

Not at all. The usual story.

They who flinch are relatively rare, and they are often called "traitors". Some are even executed.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 07:46 PM

LH, I have talked with Japanese veterans of WWII. The Home Islands would have been defended to the death with hard fighting for every inch of ground taken.

The death toll, both Allied and Japanese would have run to well over a million, so a lot of lives were actually saved by dropping the bomb that the Enola Gay carried. The name of her pilot was Col. Paul Tibbets.

FYI, Hiroshima was not a civilian target with no military value, rather it was a major center for ship-building, and Nagasaki was an industrial city.

The people with whom I have spoken about this are the grandfathers of my daughter-in-law, who is Japanese. (ask me about my grandkids sometime)

We have never discussed the bombings, rather our talks have focused on their love of country and desire to defend it to the death if need be.

How very different from what we sometimes hear today.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 07:50 PM

The puzzle isn't why people do things which involve hurting and killing other people and other creatures, as such. There are all kinds of reasons why that happens, and why people feel it right and/or necessary to do them. To protect themselves and others, for revenge, for food, for money, to power over othwer people, for the pleasure they find in exercising some skill they have acquired... Some of those reasons are pretty nasty reasons, but they are reasons.

The puzzle is to understand the kind of cruelty that doesn't fall under those kind of headings. And it isn't good enough to say that it's just the way people are, a natural human behaviour, because it's not the way most people are most of the time. Natural behaviour generally has some kind of function, and this seems not to, on the face of it. What takes us aback most perhaps is in fact that it feels un-natural. It has to have some kind of "function" from the people who do this stuff, and identifying what that is would be useful.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 07:58 PM

McGrath,

I think that it's because they have no moral anchors. Their only morality is what ever they want at the moment.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM

Look up the Dexter Law in Wyoming. Pretty horrible, what happened to Dexter. If you are squeamish, don't bother.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 05:56 AM

I don't think it's just morality that stops people doing pointless acts of cruelty. I mean we don't wake up saying "I really feel like kicking a kitten to death today - but no, I must be strong and resist the temptation."


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 11:52 AM

McGrath, these recent scientific findings shed some light on why certain people are cruel and abusive How your brain handles love and pain

Note that the brain areas activated by pain are the same ones activated by an empathic response to the pain of others -- ie we really do "feel each other's pain", even if that "other" is an oh-so-lowly   ;-)   animal. These brain areas are the biological basis for compassion and kindness; however, the same area/mechanism responsible for empathy is also responsible for sadism (ie taking pleasure in "feeling" the pain of others).   

So empathy is not quite the same thing as sympathy; it must be "seasoned" with kindness and compassion in order to be healthy. ANd although the mechanisms for kindness and compassion are also innate (even animals are observed to be empathic to some extent), they are also very much learned behaviours ie socially modelled and reinforced (or not).

On a similar note, why is it that males, of whatever age, are more likely to be cruel and abusive than females? Click here for a recent study showing how revenge replaces empathy in the male brain

Subjects witnessed people whom they perceived as wrongdoers getting zapped by a mild electrical shock. When male subjects saw this, their MRI scans lit up in primitive brain areas associated with reward; the brain's empathy centers remained dull.

Women subjects watching the punishment, in contrast, showed no response in centers associated with pleasure. Even though they also said they did not like the wrongdoers, their empathy centers quietly glowed when the shocks were administered.

At some level the study proves for the first time in physical terms what many people assume they already know: that women are generally more empathetic than men and that men are more prone to schadenfreude - malicious joy when faced with another's misfortune.

Men "expressed more desire for revenge and seemed to feel satisfaction when unfair people were given what they perceived as deserved physical punishment," said Dr. Tania Singer, the lead researcher, of the Wellcome Department of Imaging Neuroscience at University College London.

But far from condemning the male impulse for retribution, Singer said it had an important social function. "This type of behavior has probably been crucial in the evolution of society," she said, "as the majority of people in a group are motivated to punish those who cheat on the rest."


Which is probably why throughout history, it's mostly men who take responsibility for enforcing laws and defending the weak, for upholding and exercising public mechanisms/institutions in the name of "social justice". And also, most unfortunately, why people and animals suffer more abuse and cruelty at the hands of males than of females.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 04:42 PM

With all due respect, Daylia, you are way out in the ozone on a number of things here--most know that your commentary is speculative, and know not to confuse it with fact, but for the record, let me post some perspective--


>>On a similar note, why is it that males, of whatever age, are more likely to be cruel and abusive than females?

If you think that this is true, read this from the BBC site http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2442000/2442329.stm which reports that, while a quarter of boys in school report being bullied, a third of girls report it. And no, it's not the boys bullying the girls, it's the girls bullying the girls.

And let the record show that the conclusions below are do not come from the article at all--check it if you don't believe me-

>These brain areas are the biological basis for compassion and kindness; however, the same >area/mechanism responsible for empathy is also responsible for sadism (ie taking pleasure in "feeling" the pain of others).   

>So empathy is not quite the same thing as sympathy; it must be "seasoned" with kindness and >compassion in order to be healthy. ANd although the mechanisms for kindness and compassion are >also innate (even animals are observed to be empathic to some extent), they are also very much >learned behaviours ie socially modelled and reinforced (or not).


As to this comment:

>On a similar note, why is it that males, of whatever age, are more likely to be cruel and abusive >than females?

Check this quote from:

Executive Summary of the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect

Andrea J. Sedlak, Ph.D.
& Diane D. Broadhurst, M.L.A
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Administration for Children and Families
Administration on Children, Youth and Families
National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect


Perpetrator's Sex. Children were somewhat more likely to be maltreated by female perpetrators than by males: 65 percent of the maltreated children had been maltreated by a female, whereas 54 percent had been maltreated by a male. Of children who were maltreated by their birth parents, the majority (75%) were maltreated by their mothers and a sizable minority (46%) were maltreated by their fathers (some children were maltreated by both parents).

If you think the male of the species is always the most dangerous, it might be time to think again--if you don't believe me, ask Lady MacBeth--


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM

Without knowing the educational, social, economic, ancestral, genetic, and experiential backgrounds of those involved, relying solely upon physiological psychology (especially as reported in the popular press) strikes me as being a poor practice indeed.

This is in no way "putting down" Daylia or anyone else, but is simply my own obseravation -- based on many years experience of finding out that things ain't always as simple as you'd like them to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 10:49 PM

Well, apparently the Humane Society of the United States disagrees with you, guys. (So would the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Serial Killers and Rapists, most likely   ;-)

Gender Differences in the Perpetration of Cruelty toward Animals

...Such analysis shows that males tend to be greatly over-represented in the most violent and intentional forms of animal cruelty, generally equally represented in cases of neglect and significantly under-represented in cases of animal hoarding....


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 11:05 PM

PS My comments above are based on a lifetime of personal observation, direct experience and study.   I'm no anthropologist or psychologist. Interesting how the latest neurological research confirms and illustrates what I consider to be "old news", though.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 09:13 AM

I don't like to say this, but I personally don't consider the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) to be a valid source. The American Humane Society, yes, very much so. But HSUS is, in my opinion, a group like PETA, that plays upon the sensibilities of good people and takes their money -- i.e., a legal scam. But as I said, that's my opinion and only my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:07 AM

Ted, re the US stats showing mothers abuse children more often than fathers -- Canadian statistics are similar, but taken with a BIG grain of salt by the wise, because:

1. WHen the statistics are broken down into types of abuse, mothers score approx 50% higher than fathers in cases of neglect/abandonment, but fathers score at least 50% higher in cases of extreme physical abuse and incest. Neglect is much more common than physical abuse, however, which skews statistical results at first glance.

2. In Canada, 25% of families are now headed by a lone parent -- the mother in 80% of cases. And even in 2-parent families, women still bear most of the daily responsibility for child-care and discipline. So it's no wonder that women are found to neglect or use corporal punishment on their children more often than men -- they are also most likely to be the only ones providing care of any kind for children.

Source here (stats can)

Scroll down to pg 208-210 for charts showing that in 2004, fathers were almost twice as likely to perpetrate physical violence against children than mothers, while mothers were slightly more likely to neglect children.   

THere were no stats at that link from the Humane Society -- sorry. Click here for a US database on animal abuse by gender.   

Pet-Abuse.com

According to the real-time (ie constantly updated from the database) statistical data from that site, of the 114 people recently convicted for beating dogs (non-pit bulls), 110 were male, 4 were female.

* Of 18 convictions for bestiality with dogs, 15 were male, 3 female.   
* Of 94 cases of shooting dogs, 88 perpetrators were male, 6 female.   * Of 30 cases of shooting cats, 28 perpetrators are male, 2 female.

There were only 2 convictions for shooting squirrels and raccoons, both involving males. (Maybe people just don't care enough to report the shooting of a smaller, wild "nuisance" animal?)

Statistics also indicate that in a majority of reported cases of domestic violence against women and children, abuse of family pets was also a factor. In fact, on average, over 50% of battered women delay going to a shelter because they fear for the safety of their animal companions at the hands of their abusers.
Source, "Angels in Blue"

Research shows consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of child abuse, partner abuse, and elder abuse. (Note: for a review, see Animal Cruelty & Human Violence: Making the Connection, "Animal Sheltering," Jan.-Feb. 1998)

* The FBI considers animal cruelty to be one of the predictors of violence.

* Batterers may threaten or harm a pet as a show of power, to hurt their human victim, or to keep a victim in an abusive relationship.

* Nearly half of women entering domestic violence shelters reported in a recent survey that their partners threatened, injured, or killed their pets.

* 88% of families being treated for child abuse were also involved in animal abuse. In 2/3 of the cases, the abusive parent killed or injured the pet. Sadly, in 1/3 of the cases, a child victim continued the cycle of violence by abusing a pet.


Anyway, read it and weep, if you care to, fellas. This topic is depressing, and it's an absolutely LOVELY day out there, and I have plans to go shopping for a new electric guitar this morning, so ..... YIPPEEE I'M OUTTA HERE!   

But in the meantime, please know that I do realize that the vast majority of men and women would not dream of being cruel to either people or animals. My only point is that males are more likely to be cruel, and the reasons for this lie locked in the mechanisms of the human brain as well as in negative social conditioning (learning and reinforcement).

"Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life on any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives."

-Albert Schweitzer


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:58 PM

If you shoot an animal you should "honor" it and eat it to make it part of you. Otherwise the spirit of the animal is wasted and it WILL come back and work against you. If this sounds like superstition, so be it -- but I've seen this sort of thing happen over and over to those who waste a life.


aarrgghh See, I thought I'd be guitar hunting already, but here i am back   arrrrghhhh    this site is so ADDICTIVE!!!!   

But I just wanted to thank you for this comment, Rapaire, because it's very interesting and I think you're right. It gives me another perspective on what happened with my poor neighbour. I meant to thank you before, but I got sidetracked arguing my point of view (arrrrghhh that's pretty annoying as well!)

Ok I'm off to hunt guitars. And please be assured that if I do end up shooting one, I'll be sure to eat it up. Pronto!


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:49 PM

Your quote doesn't really say what you seem to think it says--it lists three kinds of animal abuse, and points out that in one, (blood sports), men are predominant, in another, neglect, men and women are about equal, and in the third, animal hoarding, women predominate--another case where you have read something that is not there--


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 05:10 PM

Maybe you guys should have read the Mutt people article someone posted here a few days ago and then this thread wouldn't need to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:33 AM

Very good readings from all. Gives one much to think about.

Thankyou

Does anyone know the correct spelling to the word that sounds like

OB-dew-la-om-ull-gotta // ? The part of the brain that registers Anger, fear, jealousy.

I looked thru the dictionary in the A's and O's and even tryed two differant strength glasses then used the table florescent magnifying glass. Still no luck, no smarts either.

How to look up a word without knowing how its is spelt has been a life long dialemia. But am putting in the effort weather or not it counts.. I know it dont. Please dont beat me...


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:33 AM

Daylia,

And my only point is that, when you say this:

>My only point is that males are more likely to be cruel, and the reasons for this lie locked in the
>>mechanisms of the human brain as well as in negative social conditioning (learning and
>>reinforcement).

The information that you post links to doesn't substantiate it--

A further note, in the past, cruelty has been regarded as a characteristically feminine trait, rooted in the fundemental weakness that in the past was thought to be associated with females. This quote is from " Criminal Psychology", written in 1897 by the eminent Austrian criminologist, Hans Gross. which was regarded for many years as one of the fundamental texts in the field Criminal Psychology, Part IV

>>Cruelty is a means of defence, and hence is characteristic of the weaker sex. Moreover, many a
>>curious bit of feminine cruelty is due to feminine traits

Anyone who says anything like that today would be called a sexist--and that runs both ways--









Eighteen percent of the women with pets reported that concern for their animals' welfare had prevented them from coming to the shelter sooner. Their concerns included worries for animals' safety, fear of relinquishing thrit pets.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:31 AM

kindaloupe, I think the word you're looking for is amygdala. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for diagrams/info;

"Stimulation of the basolateral nuclear group [part of the amygdala] results in arousal and attention. Strong stimulation of the same group can produce powerful fear or rage. Destruction of the amygdala of violent criminals has reduced their aggressiveness. The amygdala seems to be important for learning to associate objects with reward or punishment. The amygdala is also a key structure for fear learning. Fear conditioning has been demonstrated to have many effects on hypothalamic and brain stem centers mediated by the central nucleus of the amygdala .... The amygdala is among the brain areas with the highest density of receptors for sex hormones .... The range of emotions associated with the amygdala is really quite wide."

Click here for a report on the Neurobiology of suicide and aggression.

Ted, you may want to take this researcher to task for claims like this, but you'll probably be wasting your time, as all other research in this subject area over the last few decades points to the same conclusions.

...Over 90% of murderers are males. Violent crime by females appears to be increasing (19)

... Suicides occur most frequently among young white males. The Centers for Disease Control report that in 1990 there were 30,906 suicides in the United States, of which 24,724 occurred in males and 22,448 in white males.

...Individuals with additional Y chromosomes are more common in violent, criminal populations. As males are more aggressive than females, there may be a role for the Y chromosome in aggression. Testosterone may play a role in mediating aggression, as well."



Also, click here for info re the role of the amygdala in aggression. Like other psychopaths studied, Charles Whitman, the Texas Sniper, had a tumour of the amygdala. Researchers have found that injecting the neurotransmitter serotonin into the amygdala reduces aggression in these unfortunates.

Predatory aggression is increased by lesions of the corticomedial nuclei of the amygdala ... THis area ... normally serves to inhibit predation. The medial amygdala is larger in males. Testosterone injected into the amygdala enhances aggressiveness.

Intermale aggression is reduced by castration and enhanced by androgens
(Male hormones ie testosterone)

High levels of testosterone in males correlated with antisocial behaviour... The presence of testosterone during the period that the brain is developing masculinizes the brain in terms of aggression just as it does in terms of sex behaviour per se.

Murder of unrelated males is perpetrated almost exclusively by males. The relationship of murder rate to age in males is constant across cultures (23-45). It is correlated with testosterone levels (Pfaff, 1999)

Violence within the family is virtually always initiated by males. Crimes of sexual violence are overwhelmingly male-initiated. (Pfaff, 1999)

Male animals of many species must have a territory in order to mate. Males will defend their territory from intruding males. Note that human males may combine territorial aggression with reproductive success (females are raped, males are killed)

Male chimpanzees "scout" along the border of their territorial range and "guard" community territory. In humans, "my yard", "my turf", "my neighbourhood", "my State", "my Country", "remember Pearl Harbour".

Wars are almost always fought by young males.


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 09:46 AM

Hey Daylia: Thank you for the info, your writing is very thought provoking and informative.

A feelo mudcat who i wont mention for the answer i was looking for was sent to me by way of PM.

The correct spelling of the word i was looking for is as follows:
      
                        Medula oblongata
Which i was unable to find under either the "A's" or "O's" and i cant imagine why for the overwhelming embrassment i feel. And now that i find it in the dictionary theres another possible spelling.
                      Medullae oblongatae
The nervous tissue at the bottom of the brain that controls respiration, circulation, and certain other bodily functions.

I've been also lead to believe somewhere along the way. (The movie the water Boy) That The Medulla Oblongata is the part of the brain that registors or creats Anger, Jealousy and Aggression. Its also mentioned (Used in a song) in the movie "Slingblade".

Very cool thread to all that has contributed:
And a special thanks to the helpful "cat" that has helped me out here.

And just an extra added note that may be fitting. Found at the bottom of a page in the book of my memorable "Stuff."

"O" What a wickit world it is, that drives a man to sin."

Have a splended weekend.
kindaloupehackenweez


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Subject: RE: BS: How can people be so cruel to Animals ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:03 PM

Daylia, I don't disgree with them, I disagree with you.


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