 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 07:44 PM In recent light of some recent threads, I would say the anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-Jew element is at an all-time high here. It's really pretty disgusting how this type of hate is allowed here by this group of supporters of Hamas. I think that it brings great shame to this web-site. Mr. Max Spiegel, who sounds like he could be a Jew and owns this site, apparently allows this anti-semitism to flourish here. I just don't get it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:08 PM Me, I don't like anybody very much. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:11 PM I hate people who wear baseball caps backwards. I'm not sure if any of them are Jews or not. If so, though, I think it's a very small minority of them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM That's because you don't (first of all) recognize the difference between Semites, Jews, and Israelis, which are three entirely different sets of people. Once you get those definitions cleared up, try and recognize that some folks strive for justice whenever they can do so. That includes a complete understanding of whoever is on both sides of any given issue. So, for example, CarolC brings up arguments in defense of those Palestinians displaced long ago by the establishment of Israel, out of a sense of justice, NOT out of a sense of anti-Jewishness OR anti-Semitism (which would be pretty much disliking both sides equally). The preservation of Israel is a high goal well worth pursuing; but getting a Palestinian state established which will co-exist with it on peaceable terms is also a requirement of real justice. You may believe that such a thing is not possible, but I would say the effort has to be made. As king as either Israel or the now-formative Palestinian state intend on the eradication of the other they will both be miserable on this issue. But anyway, this sort of concern is not anti-semitic, anti-Jewish or anti-anything. I wold not think it was something to be paranoid about. You yourself have probably done more harm than any of these conversations could, I think, by being a rather piss-poor ambassador. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM "I hate people who wear baseball caps backwards. I'm not sure if any of them are Jews or not. If so, though, I think it's a very small minority of them." Oh, yeah? Well, I have my fire 'baseball' cap on now and it's the old fashioned way, with the visor in the front. Just to piss you off I have turned it around and the visor is now in the back. I am not Jewish, but if I was I would have done the same thing just to piss you off. This has nothing to do with being anti anything. It has to do with I have had a shitty day and I want to piss off any and everyone who likes Shatner--and I don't give a rat's ass that Shatner is Jewish. He probably couldn't find a hat big enough to fit his head, anyway. Martin, the only thing to do with anti-Jews is to tell them to fuck off. Repeatedly. With anti-Israelis, argue. With anti-Semites, again, tell them to fuck off. There are some folks you'd have to be an idiot to try to reason with. Nazis and White Supremists are two of those groups. Just tell them to fuck off. They don't understand reason anyway. As to folks who are on either the Israeli or Palestinian side fo things, they are usually worth the time in terms of argument, because they both see a version of right and wrong for one reason or other. You know damned well that I am pro Israel. Always have been. However, the screwing the Palestinians got is from many countries. Only one of those countries is Israel. The others? Try damned near ever Arab state in the mid-East. Keep that in perspective. The people who only note Israel as 'causing' the Palestinian difficulty likely do hate Jews to one degree or other. That is too bad for them. I have seen what I perceive to be varying degrees of racism here, as well as sexism (from both sexes) as well as chauvinism. But I have seen many good people post, too. Lots of good people. And one last thing: Shatner is not a great actor OR singer, FYI. OK, he's cute, but my old Labrador was cute, too. She couldn't act or sing, either. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:42 PM You dismiss the fear of the Jews to easily Amos. We have a right to be paranoid, with Hamas and that madment from Iron ready to wipe us out. As I said in another thread, Jews are about Israel. It is a homeland for all Jews, physically and spiritually. Anti-semitism is widely recognized as the hat of Jews. Amos, your complete density on the subject makes you basically an imbecile. You rate right up there sometimes with who I am referring to in this thread. Deny it if you want, because you are programmed to. But having seen and experienced anti-semitism in my life on more than a few occasions, and you never have, I absolutely know what I am talking about here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:45 PM Shatner is also a Jew, BTW, Peace. The only thing wrong with your comments is that Israel and Judiasm is synonomous. Though I have never been there, I am a citizen of that country. As I said, it is my homeland, it's people and it's land are the same thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:52 PM What's this??? Martin's 15th or 16th thread on the subject... Man, I thought I was bad about the cut 'n posters but, geeze, Martin's gfot me beat... Problem is that, like Martin's hero, every thing is either black or white... No shades of gray in Martin's world... Hey, how about the Christains who live in Isreal... Or those of Islamic Faith... The statement that Martin has made would be like some Southern Baptist sayin' the "United Sates and Southern Baptist is synonomous." How would that make a Jewish feller who lives in Chicago feel??? Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Big Mick Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:52 PM I know Carol and being an anti semite is not within her. She certainly is not a fan of the policies of the government of Israel. One of the flaws, however, that I have always found in her arguments is that they are based on the displacement of Palestinians by the "creation" of Israel. It always ignores the displacement of the Israelis throughout recent and ancient history. It is fair to say that there is not a more discriminated and attacked group in the world. When viewed in the light of this occurring over generations, one understands the attitude displayed. Anyone who expects the Israeli government to negotiate with a group of people dedicated to the destruction of Israel is out of touch with reality. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:54 PM MG .... I don't know whether it's anti-semitism or just plain ignorance and lack of sensitivity, probably all three. Some of the poster's here are obviously unaware that Israel is the homeland of all Jews, Israel and Judiasm is synonomous. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:59 PM Big Mick, a perfect description of who you at first defended but then spoke the truth about when it came to being in touch with reality. She's not, Mick. And like I said and will keep saying, Israel is the soulful and spiritual home of the Jews. All Jews in the world are citizens of Israel. It is also spiritually connected to other faiths, but face it, the Star of David is on the flag. I do not see a cross or a moon and star there. Bobert, you are one big shade of gray, because you have no concept at all of what is right and what is wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:59 PM Thank you 6 for supporting what I know and others are completely ignorant about. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:01 PM "The only thing wrong with your comments is that Israel and Judiasm is synonomous." To some people, yes, that's true. However not to all. I post often and you know what I think of your President. Martin, I do not think that of Americans. If I write against the policies of your country, that does not mean that I am against you as a citizen of that country. I have too many American friends ever to think that way. This is not the third axiom from Euclid's geometry: Things which are equal to the same thing are equal to each other. I do not like Hamas. I would wish their leadership be treated the way all terrorists should be treated. You know what I mean by that. However, I do not dislike Palestinians. I belong to no specific religion, so I have no ax to grind in that regard. (As I told you once before, decades ago I considered conversion to Judaism.) The problem here and now is that many people do have a dislike of Israel's policies yet harbour no hatred for Jews. And many people--myself included--have a dislike of 'Arabic' policies and do not harbour a dislike for Arabs. I think we have to keep that claer in our own heads, regardless of what's going through the heads of others. Shalom. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:02 PM Being critical of things a country does to the people in places ruled and occupied by that country is not "anti-British people" or "anti-American people" or "anti-Russian people" or "anti-Iranian people", or "anti-Ethiopian people". Or bigotted towards people with links and loyalties towards those countries who are living elsewhere. And that is demonstrated by the fact that some of the most cogent critics involved are natives of those countries. When apologists for the governments involved try to suggest that people involved in these kind of criticism must be racist bigots or traitors, that rightly gets dismissed as flannel. If the cap fits, wear it... I have never read a single word by Carol which could fairly and honestly be described as anti-semitic. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:04 PM Bobert .. Hey, how about the Christains who live in Isreal... Or those of Islamic Faith... The statement that Martin has made would be like some Southern Baptist sayin' the "United Sates and Southern Baptist is synonomous." Let's stick to the topic of the thread. Or open up a thread about the Christians of Israel, or the southern Baptists or even the Irish Catholics of Saint John. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:11 PM Okay, then the United States is the "soufull and spiritual home" of all Southern Baptists and they are wondering when you plan on leaving their home, Martin???... This is a lot of bull... And given the number of the exact same threads that Martin has started on the subject getting rather boring.... All it is meant to do is piss other folks off and has no basis in the facts of what people here in Mudville have posted... It's just another childish attempt by Martin to get attention... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:13 PM Like I said, Peace, the Star of Davis is on the Israeli flag for a reason. It is first and foremost the Jewish homeland even before it is a sanctioned country. It's policies have been made to insure it's existance. If Israel goes, the Jewish people go with it. McGrath, you would not recognize anti-semitism if it was right in front of you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM Martin, I do understand where you're coming from. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:21 PM Suppose Martin Gibson started a thread and nobody came????? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:21 PM Thanks, Peace. To Jews everywhere, that Star of David flag is their 5700+ years of history. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:23 PM But everyone did come, Guest. They all come to my threads. I really hit a nerve with you like I always do. You hate me for the truth I say about you. I can deal with that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:27 PM You are right mg .... they will come to your threads ... they come in droves. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:32 PM "This is a lot of bull..." It's not a lot of bull Bobert ... Israel and Judiasm is synonomous. As I said ... maybe it's ignorance. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:46 PM What is a lot of bull, sIx, is that when Martin gets bored he stares the exact same threads... Don't think so??? Click on Martin and check out his history... This is nuthin more than his way of getting attention for himself... No one here has ver posted anything that I would consider anti-Semitic yet he sees it everywhere... What amuses me is the same folk come up with the same posts and the same denials yet it's like "Ground Hog Day"... I mean, I've met some folk who were sho nuff anti-Semitic and I ain't seen none of it here in Mudcville, especially in CarolC... What, one can't question the policies of a government that own 200 nuclear weapons and has pushed folks outta their homes??? That's seems to the same old argument... "We can kill the crap outta Palestianians and bulldoze their homes and if you don't like it then you're anti-Semitic!!!" Well, I don't buy that argument anymore than I'd buy "We can bomb the crap outta Iraqis and occupy Iraq and if you don't like it yer anti-Christain!!!" That's the "bull" part of this thread... And it's "bull" every time Martin starts his Ground Hog anti-Semitic Day Thread... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Sorcha Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:47 PM Give over...I don't know whether to laugh or cry....sheesh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM bobert's post is so ignorantly funny. It's not about me bobert. It's about rampant Mudcat anti-semitism. It's not even about Bush. You cannot be anti-Israel and not be anti-Jewish. The Star of David is our symbol on that Israeli flag. Perhaps enough anti-semitism here will make it one of top site hits for the topic. Sometimes I think because of certain posters here, it deserves to be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:27 PM Never seen this thread before in the Mudcat. Anyway ... The Western Wall (wailing wall) in Jerusalem in Israel is the most central part to Jewish identity ... Jerusalem is the dominating holy place to Jews .... much like Mecca and the Kaba is to Muslims. Mecca and the Kabal is synonomous to Muslims. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:30 PM And the Israeli government recognizes there is meaning there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Azizi Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:35 PM What Peace said: "I have seen what I perceive to be varying degrees of racism here, as well as sexism (from both sexes) as well as chauvinism. But I have seen many good people post, too. Lots of good people." I agree with that statement. And I'd like to go further and say that I have seen and heard very much more anti-semitism comments [comments against Jewish persons and/or comments against persons of Middle Eastern descent}in the real world than I have read on Mudcat. As to racism, most of the time I chose to ignore what I consider to be racist remarks [on Mudcat and in the 'real world'. But Martin, far be it for me to suggest what response you should make to what you consider to be problematic. Different strokes for different folks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM Pay attention, Azizi. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Azizi Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:49 PM Little Hawk said "I hate people who wear baseball caps backwards. I'm not sure if any of them are Jews or not. If so, though, I think it's a very small minority of them." Well alot of African American males wear baseball hats backwards- it's a style thing. And btw, there's a small population of Black Americans who are Jewish. Little Hawk, I'm wondering if you wrote that comment to defuse a potentially divisive discussion? If so, I don't think it worked. And btw #2: Sorry you're having a shitty day, Peace. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM Jews in Israel and elsewhere around the world would probably cringe in horror if they realized a loud-mouthed opinionated bigot like MG was speaking for them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: michaelr Date: 29 Jan 06 - 11:56 PM We have a right to be paranoid (Martin Gibson) Why don't you exercise your right to be a delusional creep elsewhere? Go away, Martin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Ebbie Date: 30 Jan 06 - 10:37 AM "But having seen and experienced anti-semitism in my life on more than a few occasions, and you never have, I absolutely know what I am talking about here." I agree with Sage- my guess is that most of the time what you perceive as anti-Semitism (Learn to capitalize it, dammit. Show some respect.) here and elsewhere it is only anti-loudmouthism, not to mention anti-loutism. "You cannot be anti-Israel and not be anti-Jewish. The Star of David is our symbol on that Israeli flag." I recognize and respect the veneration that most Jews feel toward the State of Israel. However, I do know at least one Jew who is very far from being a Zionist. What about him? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Paul Burke Date: 30 Jan 06 - 10:46 AM You can be anti Israel and not be anti- Jewish. You're huffanpuffing again, Gobbo. I'll introduce you to quite a few anti- Israel Jews if you want. Oh, you reply, THEY aren't proper Jews.... "Israel is the homeland of all Jews, Israel and Judiasm is synonomous." Sadly, between about 650AD and the 1930s it was also the homeland of quite a few other people. That's the problem today. If Israel is solely about Jews it is a racist state. There is no separation between different racisms- if you support one kind of racism, you implicitly support them all. Jews who back a Jewish state are also retroactively backing an Aryan state. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 06 - 10:48 AM Thus spake Farty Marty: pfft pfft bbbrrrrrrraaaaaaAAAAAAAAAPPP! NOTE: If you want this asshole to go away, don't respond to his bullshit in an obviously futile attempt to engage him in intelligent discussion. [or intelligent anything, for that matter]. Simple, really. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM Israel and Judaism is synonomous does not equal Zionism. just as Mecca and the Kabal is synonomous to Muslims. That statement does not refer specifically to Islamic fundamentalists. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Gervase Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:00 AM Jerusalem is also sacred to Muslim and Christians. But that's beside the point. I'm dead against the tactics of the government of Israel, and I think the actions of those Israelis opposed to the oppression of the Palestinians are heroic. Of course, in the eyes of someone like Gibson, that probably makes me anti-Semitic. Particulary because I support the actions of these people. But, hey, will I lose any sleep? And could I actually give a toss what Martin Gibson thinks? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:07 AM Here's something that will expain where I'm coming from.Off topic (slightly) from the focus of this thread ... but what the hell... Anyway, what is required for true peace to be obtained in this ongoing conflict is understanding from both sides ... when you look deeply into it ... Palestinians, and Israelis have a lot in common. one sides effort in undertanding sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM Same old same old: "If you ain't for us, you're agin' us!" It seems that the 'paranoia' you cherish so much, Martin, has once more blinded you to the difference between criticism of policy and behavior and Judaism and Israel in general. It is the case that ALL parties in this conflict are showing various degrees of hateful stubborness and pig-headededness.........why? Because they are ALL partially right in their claims about 'homeland' and history. The area has deep historical cultural and religious significance to three different groups, and no one wants to share. It is undeniable what atrocities and persecution the Jews have suffered in various ways...and it is ALSO clear that the way they chose to redress those grievances caused harm and misery to Palestinians and others. No use me typing for 6 hours to 'prove' this...thousands of pages have been written explaining the viewpoints of ALL sides of this mess, and you, Martin, are simply exemplifying the old adage "It all depends on whose ox is being gored." You accentuate the claims of your groups, denigrate the claims of other groups, and label anyone who disagrees with you as "anti-Semitic", when maybe all they are is "anti-selfishness". Sure...there are plenty of anti-Semites in the world...but there are just as many anti-Muslims or anti-Christians who refuse to see anything but their own biased viewpoint. Face it....you ***CANNOT*** divide up that small area in the middle-East in a way that will please everyone, and now EVERYONE has too many guns and too much hate. They all refuse to share, so they go on fighting and calling bystanders who refuse to support them nasty names. sorry, but as a member of NONE of those groups, I see just a very sad, hopeless situation. Ever hear the Bob Beers song about peace, with the lines: "False are the bickering reigns Of Honor, of Homeland, of War"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Divis Sweeney Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:19 AM It's a bit rich Martin you starting this thread, it's not people dislike Jews, it's people dislike you. Take your ball and go home son. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:19 AM Gervase ... you support one side ... I support humanity on both sides ... though I am more familiar with the Israeli side ... I do try to undertand the Palestinian side. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:24 AM Are jews who don't support some of Israel's policies anti-semitic? I don't support all of "America's" policies, but that does not make me anti-American. (although in your mind, Martin, it may.) (I do respect your love of the "homeland," even though I can't fully understand it, as my faith as a Christian isn't nearly as strongly identified with Jerusalem.) Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Grab Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM The only thing wrong with your comments is that Israel and Judiasm is synonomous. Though I have never been there, I am a citizen of that country. As I said, it is my homeland, it's people and it's land are the same thing. So Martin, you're a citizen of the US, right? Think of the following actions of the US: - Jim Crow - Japanese-American internment - HUAC - Bay of Pigs - Vietnam - Bombing of Cambodia - Deposing the Shah of Iran and setting up Khomeini in charge - Reaganomics - Grenada - Supporting Saddam Hussein - Strategic Defense Initiative - Enron Can we therefore take it for granted as a citizen of the US: you are 100% in favour of all those having taken place; that no-one other than US citizens has a right to criticise them; and that criticising them is a personal attack on you, and indeed on all US citizens and the very existence of the US as a nation? Enquiring minds want to know... But you're right on one out of three, anti-Israel opinion is sky-high at the moment. Anti-white-police opinion was pretty high in Birmingham, Alabama too. I wonder why? Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:52 AM Please make an attempt to keep this a civil discussion. Terms like "delusional creep" and "asshole" are not what most people would consider civil. I hate to keep closing threads, just because we have a number of people here who don't seem to be able to carry on an intelligent discussion. I would suggest that a general "Mudcat Anti-Semitism thread is inflammatory in itself. It would be far better to disagree with somebody's statement in the thread and in the context where the statement was made, rather than making an allegation of widespread Anti-Semitism. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Jan 06 - 12:02 PM I would just like to point out, one more time (for those who think they know my postition on this issue), that I have NEVER suggested or even hinted that the people who live in what is now Israel should be forced to leave there, nor that I think that Israel should become anything other than the Jewish State. For the one-hundred-millionth time, what I am saying is END THE OCCUPATION OF THE WEST BANK AND EAST JERUSALEM (AND THE STRANGLE HOLD ON GAZA) That is all. One more time for those who didn't get it the last time END THE OCCUPATION That is all. Thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Pied Piper Date: 30 Jan 06 - 12:15 PM There's only one race of people: the human race. Groups of people who think they are special because of some "unique inheritance" are racists. PP |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,mick Date: 30 Jan 06 - 12:18 PM Martin , As an American ,don't you consider the USA to be your homeland? It's not fair for you to have two homelands when the Palestinians have none. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 30 Jan 06 - 12:51 PM To be against certain intransigent policies of both the Israeli government and the suicide bombers of Hamas is not to be antisemitic or anti-Jewish. I agree with Amos here pretty much down the line---and with others here---and with you, Martin, when you understand your own fears may lead you to paranoia and possible miscalculations. As I have said here, my mother was Jewish and that makes me Jewish to many Israelis and Jews, and gives me entrance to Israel as well. As an evolved atheist, now, I still consider myself Jewish -- mainly because Hitler would've burned me to a crisp because of who my mother was. Often we become, at least, some of what others see us as. In that way, Hitler defines me as Jewish. (My dad loved Scotch too much, but I don't consider myself liquor-ish (licorice) although I saw the fact of that craving in myself---and dropped the booze summarily. We are complex---and I, for one, derived my positions after waiting and watching the world around me for many years before stating how I see things and feel about them in any thread here. Please, Martin, understand that these are nuanced positions for all of us. To advocate eventual peace -- with ALL the Palestinians' realities, and with Israeli realities as well, is what I, personally, hope can be achieved. This life is, as we've seen throughout everyone's history, a tragic adventure. Some few of us get to live in a time of more peace than not. To digress a bit: Those of us who lived through the boredom of the Eisenhower years in the 1950s here in America, never saw that peace as a blessing--although it was that. It was viewed by the youth then as in need of energising and empowering to make right social and political and economic inequalities--and it was, to us in the Beat generation, a reason to get "On The Road" and search. That led to the '60s... (And some of us sang folksongs to minmally finance our ways 'on the road.' (A joke from that peaceful era went: What do you do with an Eisenhower doll????" answer: "Wind it up---and it sits on it's ass for eight years!" ;-) It was peaceful though--thanks to the many thousands dead and wounded in WW2.) I know this post is a hodge podge of stuff---but it's all provoked by previous posts to this thread.) Art Thieme |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 12:52 PM We know where you stand is Carol ... we know. Problem is if someone posted a thread about how much they enjoy eating halva you would post your views on the occupation issues. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 30 Jan 06 - 01:16 PM It is always amazing to me how much attention Israel gets considering how tiny it is and how few people live there. Just shows you how great jews are at public relations. What other coutnry that size could get 805 of the United Nations resolutions to be about them. How many resolutions has the UN made about Guam? Bora Bora? St. Marteen? Austria? No- 80% of them are about Israel- that incredible bully of the Middle East. Pretty impressive that a country with 1% of the populations bullys the other 99%. I think that Isreal should give back the West Bank as soon as the US gives back it's land to the Mexicans and Native Americans. Great Britain can give back it's land. In fact lets go back to the Roman and give allof Europe to Italy. Or maybe the Greeks because they had a nice run of being in charge as well. Maybe we got to go all the way back to Adam and Eve. If they were Jewish than the world belongs to the Jews. And who would make better landlords than Jews? Every country in the world has done good things and bad things. The only difference is that most of the world accepts each countries right to exist. Throughout history, a large portion of the world has been trying to wipe the Jews/israel of the face of the map. Short Jew Primer on all Jewish Holidays: someone tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat. There will always be anti semitics out there trying to wipe Israel off the face of the map. 6,000 years later we are still here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Jan 06 - 01:18 PM Not true, number 6. My posts on this issue are always for one purpose... to remove any excuses for the continuation of the occupation. As long as people continue to try to justify the occupation, I will continue to try to shoot their justifications down. I enjoy eating halva, too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 01:22 PM Eloquently expressed Larry K. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Jan 06 - 01:27 PM Larry K, Israel is incapable of accomplishing it's expansionist agenda without the hard earned money of the US taxpayers. As long as Israel is using other peoples money to do its dirty work, it is not in a position to dictate the terms. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:14 PM No, Azizi, I was not referring to blacks in my comment about baseball caps on backwards. I was making a satirical joke, my intention to somewhat lampoon a thread which I think is misguided, by responding to it with a ridiculous humorous statement. The joke was based on the fact that there are a lot of really immature-acting teenage boys and young men in this town of mine who seem to like wearing baseball caps backwards, and they piss me off somewhat, because they cause property damage and often act like idiots (mostly to impress their peers). They are virtually ALL white. I swear. That just happens to be this town, Azizi. This ain't the big city. This is small town Ontario, and the vast number of people around here are white. There are a few Native Americans here too, mostly Ojibwas. There are a few Asians. I know of at least one black family in town, and the father is a very well respected member of the city council, a highly respected man around here. His name is Fayne Bullen. I've seen one or two other black people in town, but they don't wear baseball caps at all, as far as I recall. It was the white kids in general here that I was referring to. They are a glut on the market, and most of them choose to wear their baseball caps backwards, because they got the idea from American TV shows that it is cool to do that. Looks to me like I unintentionally nudged a chip that is resting on your shoulder, Azizi, but I assure you that was not what I had in mind. I was simply making fun of the premise this thread is based upon. I do NOT hate people who wear baseball caps backwards in truth, for heaven's sake! (but some of them have been known to annoy me at times) Martin & 6 - Yes, I understand that the state of Israel is "a homeland for all Jews, physically and spiritually"...or at least that is how it is seen by most Jews. Fine. There are differences of opinion among Jews regarding the specific political and military policies OF the state of Israel, are there not? Do not some Jews favor holding onto conquered territory in Syria, Jordan, and so on? Do not others favor evacuating those terrritories? Are not some Jews more hardline and aggressive in their views than others? Well, if I criticize the hardliners, and I do, then I am simply agreeing with the Jews who also criticize them. That makes me a friend of liberal Jews. To be a friend of liberal Jews does not equate to being anti-Semitic. I would have to be against ALL Jews to be anti-semitic (as you guys use the word), and I am not against all Jews. It is not Jews I oppose, it is certain specific policies of the state of Israel I oppose. I also oppose Muslim hardliners, and am in agreement with Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with Jews. So, you can clearly see that I am not anti-semitic. I favor both Jewish and Muslim semites who are willing to get along with each other and live in peace, side by side. I disagree with those who want to keep on killing each other. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM Didn't take long for him to sucker you in did it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM Oh, I just like to talk, that's all. How about you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:31 PM "I favor both Jewish and Muslim semites who are willing to get along with each other and live in peace, side by side." Me to L.H. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Arne Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:50 PM 'Martin Gibson': As I said in another thread, Jews are about Israel. Then you're simply mistaken. FWIW, there's plenty of Jews that disapprove of what the gummint of Israel has done over the years. Then again there's plenty of Jews that really don't care a lot one way or the other as a practical matter. Maybe you think that Jews should be "about Isreal", but that's just you trying to speak for others that are quite capable of coming to conclusions and making decisions on their own. Peace: However, the screwing the Palestinians got is from many countries. Only one of those countries is Israel. The others? Try damned near ever Arab state in the mid-East. Keep that in perspective. The people who only note Israel as 'causing' the Palestinian difficulty likely do hate Jews to one degree or other. That is too bad for them. Let's not leave out the Brits and other colonial powers (including the U.S.) who have made a real bollix of Arabia and Southern Asia in general. The seeds for trouble were sown a long time before the partition of Palestine. Now keep in mind that this vast area hasn't seen lots of peace and prosperity over rceent centuries regardless, and that they could have done quite a job of mucking things up all on theiur own. But, unfortunately, we helped them, and for what we contributed, now we have to take some blame. But while we should be spreading blame around, that's no excuse for a "tu quoque" defence; where there is injustice, let's protest it, no matter where it comes from, and no matter what horrors (and there are plenty) others may have done. Cheers, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM Well, well, well. Here we go again. Thank goodness Max is such a nice guy. Otherwise, that very first post might be considered Prima Facie evidence in a libel lawsuit. I wonder if this is the first time you have libelled people here at the Café? This is me... leaving. Anyone else care to leave? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 06 - 03:23 PM Hold the door, gnu: I'm right behind you.. Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 30 Jan 06 - 03:42 PM When you deal with freedom of speech it gets pretty tricky. You have to put up with stuff. I don't want to put words in their mouths but the way I see it - the folks who run the Mudcat would prefer for it to be an open forum with little or no censorship. So - Martin has the freedom to post jokes about the death of my infant son. He has the freedom to poke fun at people in wheelchairs. He has the freedom to refer to women as body parts. Sometimes he's deleted, sometimes he isn't. But the freedom he enjoys means that from time to time he's going to read posts that may be offensive to his delicate sensibilities. That's called freedom of speech. It looks like the only options are censorship - or one can try to live with the rules as they stand now. Or one can try not to be so sennnnnnnnnnnnnsitive You can't have your cake and eat it too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 30 Jan 06 - 04:00 PM By the way - speaking of bigotry - my uncle Jim was one in the first team of doctors that entered the Buchenwald death camp. He saved a lot - and lost a lot of patients there. He was a changed man after that experience. When he found out that the guard dogs that were still there had been living on a diet of human livers he shot them all. His stories about those days were the best lesson I ever could have hoped to learn about the evils of bigotry in any form. And just how bad it can get. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Jan 06 - 05:56 PM this thread has proved exactly what it set out to do. The hate for me doesn't bother me. and I am not going to go anywhere. I did not single anyone specifically out on this thread. Many of you opened your mouth in your defense and some of you managed as usual to single yourself out. You know who you are and you know it is true. Joe, you do have quite a few here who support terrorists and you know that is true also. The double standard of bigotry, zero tolerance, and hypocracy live among many here. Only a few of you such as Larry K, Number 6, Peace, and Little Hawk make much sense on this thread. Most of the rest are just full of the usual hate. YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-ISRAEL AND NOT BE ANTI-JEWISH! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:00 PM >>In recent light of some recent threads, I would say the anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-Jew element is at an all-time high here.<< Definitely count me in as anti-Israel. I am fervently anti-zionist also. And guess what? So are many, many proud Jews. Anti-semitic is a senseless term since it refers to a language group. As for anti-Jew, when have the whiny "everybody hates us" type of Jews ever been able to stand this world without anti-Jews to hate? If there were no Nazis, it would be necessary for these types of Jews to create them. >>We have a right to be paranoid<< Bullshit. >>Some of the poster's here are obviously unaware that Israel is the homeland of all Jews, Israel and Judiasm is synonomous.<< Then if you're a Jew, go live there and shut up. Leave the bagels, though, I like those. >>It's just another childish attempt by Martin to get attention...<< Righto! >>It's about rampant Mudcat anti-semitism.<< Translation: "It's about people who don't agree with me." >>Martin, I do understand where you're coming from.<< It's called Saturn. >>Jews in Israel and elsewhere around the world would probably cringe in horror if they realized a loud-mouthed opinionated bigot like MG was speaking for them.<< From what I saw in Israel, I'd have to say he'd fit right in. Those people are absolutely nuts. I can't believe the US is stupid enough to support them, especially when the US gets absolutely nothing in return. Everything is supposed to be gave & take but Israel is all take. Time to start giving. Want something from me? Gotta give something up. I would think Jewish business acument would accept that sentiment wholeheartedly. But when they wallow in their own cesspool of self-pity, I guess that gets buried. Oh, well, their loss. But go ahead and call us all Nazis and Hamas-lovers and anti-Jews for whatever good you think it will do you. But you're cutting your own throat that way and don't expect me to stop you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:00 PM Joe, there is not widespread anti-semitism on Mudcat. Just enought to make it noticable, that's all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:05 PM AR282, you are a complete moron. One of the most complete ones here. You know zero about the topic. You are one of the Nazis and Hamas lover and I am proud to tell you so. deny it all you want. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:09 PM Just to make sure the record is straight, none of my posts in this thread are addressed to, nor are they in any way a response to anything posted to this thread by "Martin Gibson". (Except for this one.) They are in response to people who have brought my name into this discussion, and who have incorrectly represented my views on the subject of Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Big Mick Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM Martin, how about answering the assertions he makes instead of just throwing shit around. I would be very interested in a solid give and take discussion of people with passion. What I get is this incessant he said/she said bullshit. If you are as passionate on the subject as you seem to be, then use that self professed intelligence to show why folks are wrong instead of the name calling. Otherwise you are as much a part of the problem as those you attack. Why do I waste my friggin' time??????? Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:14 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM You can't take your eyes away, Mick. It's like passing a really nasty accident on the highway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Stilly River Sage Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:21 PM He's always going to do that, ignore or denigrate the reasonable responses in favor of promoting his own irrational world view. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:21 PM CarolC, I am afraid that Palestine has been lost to the Palestinians except for a few bits of confined land, much of it unproductive. The means of providing an effective government, infrastructure and an effective economy, have been removed. Many Palestinians suffer in refugee camps (ghettos) without hope. The object of the Zionists, backed by U. S. Canadian and European Zionist support and money, and the seeming acquisence of the U. S. and Canadian governments is to destroy the Palestinians as a nation. The noose becomes tighter with each passing year. Not even the golden dome in Jerusalem will remain to them. A people can't survive under the present conditions. The growth of Hamas and similar groups is the result of despair and anger engendered by the situation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: artbrooks Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM Reminds me of the discussion we had a while back...about the possibility the "Martin Gibson" is really a front for someone (Pat Robinson, Hamas, who knows) who wanted to increase the number of anti-semites in the world through the sheer obnoxiousness of someone alleged to be Jewish. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:23 PM Thet boy sure is a whiner fer someone who accuses others of whining as much as he does. I wonder if all his other accusations are likewise confessions? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM >>AR282, you are a complete moron.<< Takes one to know one, it would seem. >>One of the most complete ones here.<< Second only to you, Marty-farty. >>You know zero about the topic.<< I know zero about whining that the whole world hates me because of my race/ethnicity/nationality/religion? For once, you're right about something. I couldn't imagine having the gall to accuse everyone who argued with me of being anti-Asian or whatever. It's so childish. If they're anti-Asian, I wouldn't waste two seconds arguing with the assholes. If they're not, then I have no business saying they are. >>You are one of the Nazis and Hamas lover and I am proud to tell you so.<< If I was either of those, you wouldn't be saying a word. >>deny it all you want.<< Marty, I don't really care if I am or not. You're no different than those idiot born-again Christians. Nothing you say or do will ever satisfy them. They NEED things to bitch about--it's their nature. Trying to satisfy them is a hopeless, bottomless pit. So I don't bother. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bill D Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:05 PM "YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-ISRAEL AND NOT BE ANTI-JEWISH!" total B.S. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Azizi Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:40 PM Off topic somewhat- Note to Little Hawk: I was applauding you in my 29 Jan 06 - 10:49 PM comments for what I sensed was your attempt to lighten the discussion. I really don't think you hated folks who wore baseball caps backwards whether they be Black, White, or Green. Saying that a lot of Black guys wear baseball hats backwards doesn't mean I thought that this population is the only one to wear baseball hats that way. As for me having a chip on my shoulder, what??!! Where in the world did that come from??! I really can't see how you would think that from my comments in this thread or otherwise. That said, I'm sorry for the digression. I'll now return to lurking mode-in this thread anyway.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 30 Jan 06 - 08:19 PM Common everybody Group Hug? NO? Alright then. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:20 AM I firmly believe in what I say and I say what I mean about the topic. I will be starting another thread that shows I am far from alone on this and that people in complete denial such as guest AR282 who claim they know a few Jewish people who loathe their identity are in a very small minority. I am not a front, artbrooks. i am just a man who feels strongly what he believes in and knows that the few far left liberals here who disguise their anti-zionist outlook is nothing more than anti-semitism. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:29 AM Take a deep breath Martin Not everybody hates you and we'd rather you eased up and tried to have a nice peacefull day for a change. You'll live much longer. Have a beer and a nice Chicago Hotdowg. All the rants in the world wont change the mind of the stubbern mind. Let people believe what the want to believe. Remember it takes 42 muscles to frown but only 18 to flip the bird!(not that I aprove of flipping birds) Raptor |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Grab Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM Martin, can you tell us why you hate Christians and Christianity? You've been criticising a whole lot of people on Mudcat, many of whom are Christians. Why are you such a radical that you don't believe Christianity should exist? Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:14 AM Martin...Not everybody hates you I'd be interested to know why not, in light of past performance. Or at least why everybody doesn't think "him" irrelevant. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: kendall Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:31 AM Yawn |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Alba Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:42 AM Sniff. Kendall is it snowing down South today? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:18 AM Azizi - Oh. Heh! Well, then maybe my shoulder is the one with the chip on it... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:24 AM Grab, I certainly do not hate christians. denying that christ is anyone's savior does not mean that I hate you for believing it. so, I don't care if you pray to a statue hanging in a church or any other man or idol. greg F., I don't care if I am hated here. but I certainly am not irrelevant. I make too many people either think or knee jerk react here to be irrelevant. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:31 AM I make too many people either think or knee jerk react here to be irrelevant. You certainly do that, MG. In fact this thread has me thinking quite a bit, but I am not sure what to think. I do know this much-- the issues are far more complex and emotional than this medium can effectively encompass. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:34 AM the issues are far more complex and emotional than this medium can effectively encompass. BEst remark onthis thread to date. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Pied Piper Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:37 AM So Martins going to start yet another thread giving us the benefit of his Ubermensch intellectual clarity. Oh joy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:44 AM Why do we have a special word just for people who hate Jews? Why don't Native Americans, who were conquered and in many cases exterminated, get to have their special word too...like "Anti-Amerindianism" or something? Why don't Christians get a special word for people who hate them? Why don't we have articles on Anti-Christianism or Anti-Islamism? How come the Armenians don't get movies made about their extermination by the Turks? Why do only Jews get a special persecution label? Could it be that this very circumstance, harped on incessantly in the media since 1945, has increased hostility toward Jews on the part of some people who would not have given the matter a second thought otherwise? Hatred is hatred. There isn't one special variety of hatred that is worse than all other varieties or deserves more press than all others. But some people seem to think there is... Where did they get that idea, and what good does it do anyone? None, in my opinion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:46 AM Excellent point LH ... why not start a thread on that issue. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:56 AM We should start a thread on Anti-Nothingism instead...to deal with the problem of people who hate other people for no discernable reason whatsoever. It's a form of hatred that hasn't had nearly the media coverage it deserves. (wry grin) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: nutty Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:01 PM "YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-ISRAEL AND NOT BE ANTI-JEWISH!" If this statement is true THEN...................... "YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-ISRAEL AND NOT BE ANTI-BRITISH!" Historically the British Government allowed this mess to develop in the 1940's then stood back and waited to see what would happen. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:02 PM Your nuts !! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM Anti-human is the main problem we really have here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM "How come the Armenians don't get movies made about their extermination by the Turks? " See Ararat by Atom Egoyan "Plot Outline: Interrogated by a customs officer, a young man recounts how his life was changed during the making of a film about the Armenian genocide." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: nutty Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:15 PM Or even ANTI-GERMAN If so many Jews had not been displaced they would not have needed to find new homes in Israel OR ANTI-EUROPEAN as many European countries refused to reinstate their Jewish citizens leading to them being displaced persons. There are many arguements for and against things that have been said in this thread and its very sad to see so much intolerance. Martin .... you must accept that people are allowed to have views that differ from your own. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM As a child in the 50's and 60's, I read hundreds of comic books that were utterly awash in the most virulent Anti-German and Anti-Japanese propaganda imaginable. It was true hate propaganda, designed to depict entire nationalities as subhuman. They didn't bother doing that to the Italians, because they didn't take them seriously enough. Ever since then I have been well aware that hate propaganda is something commonly indulged in by the very people in my society who supposedly rail against it...as long as it is confined to the specific groups whom they have pre-selected as being worth of hatred by the ruling order. In mainstream media North America since WWII those groups have mainly been: WWII Germans WWII Japanese Communists and more recently... Muslim Militants of one sort or another. The ruling media always want a demon for the public to focus on, so that wars can be fought and violence can be justified. As realpolitik shifts its worldly objectives, however, the face of the demon changes. The present face of the demon is mostly a Muslim face. The objective is primarily to control world oil resources. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM "YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-ISRAEL AND NOT BE ANTI-JEWISH!" Superb! Martin's persecution complex is still as intact as ever. "Though I have never been there, I am a citizen of that country. As I said, it is my homeland, it's people and it's land are the same thing." In your case Martin, that means someone who has never breathed the air, felt the soil beneath your feet or put your money where your mouth is and gone to live there. You don't know the sounds of the streets, the warm fragrances of the wind, the glint of sunlight on the seas and rivers or any of the myriad experiences that give a person a deep physical and spiritual connection to their homeland. Like your perceived greviences about whatever axe your are grinding, your connecton in this case is a artifice constructed in your own mind. "I just don't get it." That much is obvious boyo! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:29 PM . . . and 100 to boot! Back of the net! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine Date: 31 Jan 06 - 05:14 PM The only thing wrong with your comments is that Israel and Judiasm is synonomous. Though I have never been there, I am a citizen of that country. As I said, it is my homeland, it's people and it's land are the same thing. Martin Gibson, Sorry, you are incorrect. Jews have the *right* to Israeli citizenship should they decide to make aliyah and live there but diaspora Jews are not considered citizens by the State of Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 06 - 07:36 PM Aha. I wondered about that. If all the Jews in the World were automatic citizens of Israel, then they should be able to vote in the Israeli elections, shouldn't they? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM Martin is Jewish. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM That's right, Peace and a proud and very knowledgable one at that. The Guest above you responded to is Mudcat anti-semitism in it's purist form. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:57 PM "Martin is Jewish" It would take more than him telling me this to make me believe so. I will take this statement to mean that Martin is known personally by the person who made it. So I shall respect their comment. Jewish he may be but he is a very uninformed Jew and knows nothing about Israel or how to obtain an Israeli Passport and or Citizenship. He only shows his ignorance when it comes to starting threads on Topics that he obviously ( by his posts on this Thread alone) knows nothing about and is unable to discuss the subject with others in an informative and polite manner. Every Religion has it's share of followers who lack brains. The Jewish Faith, in this particular case it would seem, is no exception. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:11 PM So guest - don't feed the troll. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM Guest, I have a passport and relatives in Israel. I have just not gone. On-going anti-semitism by you, Guest. I can tell you are offended and unbcomfortable and I am quite glad of it that you just keep surfacing as the Nazi/Islamic terrorist that you are. What I forgot, you will never know. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:24 PM Can we buy you a ticket ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM No, not going until maybe next year. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:08 AM Israeli citizenship in regards to Jews: The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion. Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen. Since 1970 the right to immigrate under this Law has been extended to include the child and the grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure the unity of families where intermarriage had occurred; it does not apply to persons who had been a Jews and had voluntarily changed their religion. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:16 AM Martin, you said, "Though I have never been there, I am a citizen of that country." I guess thats just wishful thinking and not really a lie. Perhaps you are just misinformed about your status. Please read the above. You are not a citizen of Israel. Maybe, someday when you save enough money, you can make the pilgramage but until then, you are just another American schmuck. Sorry to destroy your visions of grandeur. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Grab Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:15 AM Martin, can you tell us why you hate Christians and Christianity? You've been criticising a whole lot of people on Mudcat, many of whom are Christians. Why are you such a radical that you don't believe Christianity should exist? Grab, I certainly do not hate christians. Thanks MG. So we've established that it's possible for you to criticise people based on their actions and opinions, not because of their religion. Why then are you adamant that the majority of people on Mudcat are incapable of doing the same? Bear in mind that your reason had better be more than "because they're all criticising Israel/Israeli policy/Ariel Sharon/the IDF". I don't know if you've heard the one about a guy who hears a warning on the radio about someone driving the wrong way down the freeway that his wife uses to get to work. He rings her mobile... "Honey, be careful out there - there's someone driving the wrong way down that freeway." "One person?! There's hundreds of the crazy bastards!" Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:48 AM My favourite color is white and my... HAMAS HAMAS MUSLIMS HATE SPIT FILTH HAMAS favourite number is two. I like to go HAMAS HAMAS TERROROISTS MUSLIM HATE HATE cycling at the weekends with my HAMAS HAMAS FILTH WARMONGERING KILL KILL STAB STAB wife and our next door HAMAS MUSLIM BOMB KILL HATE STAB neighbours VIVUE LE ISRAEL, HAMAS HAMAS. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Gervase Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:35 AM Martin, have you taken any medication today? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:36 AM Seriously man deep breaths. Mabey try some pot. You gotta lay off the java. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:32 AM I think what Martin is trying to say is OCCUPATION OCCUPATION LEFT WING DING-A-LING that he has become a cartoon of BUSH BUSH HATE HATE DOWN WITH NEOCONS himself and that mudcat is now an internet BURN BURN FLAG FLAG PALESTINE LOVEFEST pantomine with each player to their own role, myslef included DEATH TO THE REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRAT DEMOCRAT. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:37 AM This is the most sensitive and insightful portrayal of the real human stream-of-consciousness since Ulysses. To think an important literary movement could be reborn here in the entrails of the 'Cat! A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:43 AM Why thank you Amos and may your sarcasm last a thousand thousand years and lift us from our soured egos |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bill D Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:51 AM "stream of consciousness"? How 'bout a "trickle of semi-comatose silliness"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:56 AM Don't think your out of this SHATNER SHATNER CANADA RULES aswell Mr D, your scribblings have not gone unnoticed by the Director of Mudcat who LOVE ME LOVE ME I'M A LIBERAL sees all and knows all. This is the playground of people who like a family get together LONG WINDED REPLIES TO AZIZ SHATNER SHATNER assume their roles with silk like ease, GOD BLESS CANADA SHATNER. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Greg F. Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:02 AM I'm sick and tired of all this sexist crap. What about UNCLE-Semitism? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:01 PM Regarding Israeli citizinship .... a child born outside of Israel who has at least one parent that is an Israeli citizen, will automatically be granted Israeli citizinship. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:14 PM I did not post the last Guest, Martin Gibson post. I am almost always logged in. That last post was by one of Mudcat's most famous ultra liberal posters who is always pissed off with me, as If I care. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM But you do care otherwise you wouldn't have posted a reply "as if I care" to your own post |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Alba Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:29 PM So Martin's Parents or one of his Parents is an Israeli that returned to the USA then. I had wondered if this was the case after reading his comments regarding his right to Israeli Citizenship on this Thread. Now if Martin had made this information clearer way back at the beginning of this Thread it would have saved a lot of bother I think. Thank you for the info #6:) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM None of the GUEST,CarolC posts in this thread are from me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM Nice imitation, pal. ;-) I hope people here realize that I never, never, and absolutely never will post as "Guest, Little Hawk" on this forum. Never. Not even once. So if you see such a post, it's not from me. Now, I have a few things to say. Shatner is the greatest. Canada rules. Winona Ryder has lovely eyes. Canada is way nicer than Texas. DougR needs to be re-educated as to the true meaning of the word "liberal". I've been to Nevada...don't bother going unless it's to see the mountains. Shatner is Canada's greatest gift to the World. Hamsters are fun. So are dachshunds. Shambles needs a new hobby. Clinton Hammond is an unpleasant jerk, but deep down he is almost worth knowing. Mangos are the best fruit of all. Thank you very much. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:08 PM Litte Hawk - On what first hand knowledge are you basing your claim that "Canada is way nicer than Texas". Have you visited here or are you basing your opinion on internet rumors ?? Fess up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:13 PM And BTW, I am not a Democrat. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:19 PM I have visited Texas, and I'd have to say that it has its good points. Austin is a great music town, for instance. On the whole, though, I do like Canada a bit better. It's definitely "nicer". You are less likely to get shot by someone in Canada, and the police are more easygoing here. But that's just my subjective opinion, no more important than anyone else's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM None of the GUEST Raptor postings are mine, I would never say that! Raptor |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:32 PM I didn't realize anyone had bothered to do a "Guest, Raptor" posting. Where is it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM Little Hawk has proved my point that there is rampent Mudcat Anti-Texanism polluting this website and it is at an all-time high here. It's really pretty disgusting how this type of hate is allowed here by this group of supporters of Canada. I think that it brings great shame to this web-site. Mr. Max Spiegel, who sounds like he could be a Texan and owns this site, apparently allows this Anti-Texanism to flourish here. I just don't get it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:02 PM LOL! You are SO right, Wesley. Hatred of Texas and Texans is endemic to most of the World these days, I find. Shocking. It is criminal of this forum to pander to people who engage in blatant Anti-Texan rhetoric, and it must be stopped! I find my own Anti-Texan proclivities quite disturbing. Every time I see George Bush I think, "Goddamn know-nothing Texan prick...", and then I catch myself in horror, realizing that I have once again fallen into the grip of mindless Anti-Texanism. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don Firth Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:08 PM Lemme see if I've got this right. . . . YOU CANNOT BE ANTI-TEXAS AND NOT BE UN-AMERICAN!!!! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:12 PM Texans! I hate 'em... ARGH! I didn't mean that. Bad! Bad! (bashing my head against the wall repeatedly) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM Can I PLEASE reming you all for 537th time that George W Bush is NOT a Texan ! He was born in New England and came here with his family to make money. That makes him a carpetbagger. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:15 PM Omigosh. That was sneaky, wasn't it? Sorry about that oversight. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:17 PM He was born in New Haven Conneticut. That's closer to Canada than Texas. Look it up on a friggin' map. Ya damn Yankees ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM New Haven, eh? Hmmm. I wonder if there is a link to the H.P.Lovecraft mythos here? Perhaps Bush is part of the spawn of Cthulhu. That could explain a lot. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Greg F. Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:59 PM Lovecraft's from Providence, Rhode Island, not CT. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 03:01 PM Yes, but it's not that far away, is it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM Yes, but it's not that far away, is it? A million miles, LH, if you're a Rhode Islander (as I am by birth). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 06 - 04:11 PM I see. Just wondering...what does one call a person from Connecticut? Nothing obvious comes to mind... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 04:20 PM I actually have no idea, LH. Good question though. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 04:25 PM Connectinut ?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:06 PM Greg F, Carol C, wesley s. and assorted flavorless guests. check out the FLAME article and read about yourself! Ultra/fanatical liberalism is at the core of a lot of problems it seems. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Nutmegger Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM Nutmegger According to the Connecticut State Library, "Nutmegger" came to refer to residents of Connecticut, the Nutmeg State, but how the state received that nickname is unclear. A nutmegger may have been a peddler who sold nutmegs. It is difficult to imagine someone making a living off of a single product, perhaps the peddler sold spices. The alternative story is that nutmegger was a shrewd and ingenious con artist who whittled nutmegs from wood and peddled the fakes to gullible housewives. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:27 PM How about Connecticut Yankees ? It was good enough for Mark Twain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM As I understand it, the original vision of Zionism was that the Holy Land should become the country which all Jews could see as home, and where they should be free to go and live if they chose, alongside the people who were already living there. This would have meant a state where Jews and non-Jewish Arabs were present in more or less equal numbers. In 1948 there was a tragic war, which led to most of the non-Jewish people living within the territory set up as Israel becoming refugees. Because of a further tragic series of events the refugees were never allowed to return home. The outcome has been an Israel where non-Jews have been a relatively small minority, not at all in line with what the original Zionists envisaged. However the idea has rooted itself that this situation is a defining characteristic of Israel, and that any right of return for the refugees and their descendants is by definition hostile to Israel as such. However it is worth noting that throughout this whole period Israel has continued to recognise that those Arab who remained within the new state had full constitutional rights as citizens. Israel's Jewish majority has never fallen into the trap of restricting citizenship to Jews, which is something which could easily have happened. If Israel was to extend that citizenship to returning refugees it would be in line with this honourable precedent, and with the vision of the original Zionists. In a sense what would be involved would not be the destruction of Israel, but its restoration. In practice a two-states-in-partnership solution, under which there would be a right of return to the Palestinian state for all descendants of refugees, is a more realistic way of trying to entangle the knot. What would make it more realistic would be for this to be accompanied by a right of return to their original homeland for the dwindling numbers of first generation refugees, who had lived in the territory of what became Israel. This would not threaten the existing majority status of Jewish Israelis, but could make it a lot easier for the Palestinian Diaspora to accept the past and move on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Arne Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM According to the Connecticut State Library, "Nutmegger" came to refer to residents of Connecticut, the Nutmeg State, but how the state received that nickname is unclear. I've heard it said (don't know how truthfully) that it came from peddlers selling wooden (i.e. fake) nutmegs (as you mention). Because I know for a fact I haven't seen a single nutmeg tree in Connecticut in all the time I lived there..... Cheers, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM Nutmeg is the seed of Myristica fragrans, and the spice 'mace' is the external cover of the nutmeg. I love freshly ground nutmeg on pasta with butter, grated parmesan cheese, salt and pepper. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM Yes, I saw it, Martin. And I am proud to be included in the company of the people your buddies at FLAME are calling "self-loathing Jews". Although I am having some difficulty figuring out how "self-loathing Jew" can be considered anything other that an anti-Semitic slur. McGrath, non-Jews in Israel do not have full constitutional rights as citizens. There are some rights that Jewish Israelis have that Israelis who are not Jewish do not have. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM I knew that Carol - but in a whole range of matters non-Jewish Israelis do have citizenship in, a way that their opposite numbers in, for example the old South Africa or the old American South did not. (And in the light of those examples, I think that is something for which Israelis could take some pride.) The implication of this shared citizenship is that calls for Israel to respect the rights of refugees from the very same community cannot fairly as rejected out of hand as "anti-Israel". Including the right of return for these refugees. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: jaze Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:28 PM On the other hand, Martin, some feel that Ultra/fanatical right-wing conservatives are the problem. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: artbrooks Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:35 PM Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have the right not to be drafted. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:49 PM Carol what the f&$k are you talking about? "non-Jews in Israel do not have full constitutional rights as citizens." Non-Jews and that includes Arabs do have full citizenship and equal protection of the law in Israel. There where ten Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 16th Knesset (there are a total of 120 seats). There is an Arab judge sitting in their supreme court. More than you can say about the rights a Jew would have in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Syria ... one sided view you do have and I do sense slight prejudice there. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:52 PM CarolC. if you are indeed a Jew, and a self-loathing one, I am proud to not have you as part of the Jewish community. There are self-loathing Jews who have a hard time coming to grips with their culture, their religion, their people. Too many have worked hard for generations to let people like you really get in the way. There will always be some like yourself. It's you who is the square peg in the round hole. By admitting that you are one, you prove the outcast you have made yourself. You do very little good, just cause devisifness. None of your fanaticism will ever be implicated so stay in your own little world/trailer. Jaze, ultra conservative right wingers are a problem also, but not with antisemitism for the most part. If so, they just do not pose any threat to Israel. In fact, they tend to support Israel. Otherwise, I have very little use for them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:56 PM More facts about Arab citizens in Israel: Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included as a minister an Israeli Arab, Salah Tarif, and in March of 2005 Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior. And in the 1999 Miss Israel, Rana Raslan, an Arab. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:31 PM Art Brooks .. re: "Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have the right not to be drafted." "Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory conscription in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). This exemption was made out of consideration for their family, religious and cultural affiliations with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world, given the on-going conflict. Still, volunteer military service is encouraged and IDF service was made mandatory for Druze men at the request of their community leaders." sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:36 PM There are other differences in their rights, artbrooks. If an Arab Israeli marries a Palestinian, that Arab Israeli does not have the right to live with his or her spouse in Israel, and the spouse does not have a right to become an Israeli citizen, but Israeli Jews have the automatic right to have their spouses live with them in Israel, and for their spouses to become Israeli citizens. If an Arab Israeli gives birth in a hospital in the occupied Palestinian areas to a Palestinian spouse, that Arab Israeli doesn't have the right to expect that her child will have Israeli citizenship. If an Arab Israeli supports the idea of Palestinian "right of return", that Arab Israeli can be barred from serving in the Knesset. And there are other differences. This article gives some background on Israel's discriminatory property laws and practices... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:hpoghRXulG8J:www.cohre.org/downloads/palestine/P3-mediarelease.doc+%22property+laws%22+israel&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8 And some non-Jewish Israelis consider being barred from the Israeli military to be a big disadvantage because many of the material benefits in Israeli society are only accorded to those who serve in the Israeli military. So that, in itself, is a form of discrimination. None of these things would be tolerated here in the United States. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:43 PM And can a Jew (or Christian) become a citizen in Saudi Arabia?? sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:44 PM Probably. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:45 PM More like NOT! sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:45 PM By the way, trying to make Israel look good by comparing it to a totalitarian state like Saudi Arabia is not a good way to try to get your point across. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:48 PM Here's another way of looking at it. If the government of the United States was discriminating against artbrooks' Jewish wife as much as Israel discriminates against non-Jewish Israelis, artbrooks would not be defending it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:56 PM I know nothing of Art Brook's wife and what she is being dicrminated against. I just hate all this mud slinging at Israel concerning rights. Jezuz, take a look at your own country. Hell, even Canada has some faults and skeletons in the closet. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:59 PM Yes, my country is pretty bad in many respects. But I admit it freely, and I'm not trying to cover up what's wrong with my country. And correcting people's factual errors about Israel is not "mud slinging". It's called "telling the truth". If people weren't so determined to present the factual errors in the first place, they wouldn't need to be corrected. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:02 AM I'm presenting facts regarding Israel .... it certainly has it's faults, but it certainly isn't as bad as what is being made out here. True understanding is important. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:03 AM No, it looks to me like you are one of the people who is presenting the factual errors, number 6. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:04 AM What factual errors Carol C.?? sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:12 AM The stuff you put on the other thread about how the spouses and offspring of all Israelis have automatic rights to Israeli citizenship. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM I posted that?? I posted somewhere about the fact that a child born outside of Israel to one parent who is a citizen of Israel has automatic citizinship to Israel ... that's a fact, and I beleive it is a fact with most countries. And something about the Law of Return ... granting immigration and citizenship. Thems the Facts sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:34 AM No, that's not true. I proved you wrong on the other thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:36 AM Where exactly? If we're looking at scoring points here ... I have proved you wrong too. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:43 AM This is an Israeli citizen whose child is not being granted Israeli citizenship... "I've been sent this report from the Arab Human Rights Association in Israel (AHRA). Headed 3 year old lives in anonymity in Baqa al Gharbiyyah, the article sets out how it is that the child of an Israeli mother is barred from attaining Israeli citizenship: The Israeli Interior Ministry continues to repeatedly refuse Israeli citizenship to Qadar Ismail Mawasi, who three years ago was born in Nabulus when her mother from Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel was visiting her husband in the West Bank city. Qadar's name was also not imprinted on her mother's ID as is usually done for children of Israeli parents. This denial of identity stems from the fact that she was born at the Rafidia hospital in Nabulus. Qadar's brothers, Fahmi and Ahmad are both Israeli citizens. Qadar's mother, Izdihar Mawasi, says, "When I was in my last month of pregnancy (3 years ago) I was visiting my husband Ismail at his home in Nabulus; being from the West Bank, he is forbidden entrance into Israel. During that visit, I felt that I was about to deliver, so began my return to Baqa al Gharbiyyah. However, I was stopped at the checkpoint leading into Israel due to a security closure. This kept me in Nabulus, even though I told security staff that I was on the verge of delivery". Shortly after Qadar was born, Izdihar's husband suffered a heart attack and passed away; all this time her daughter had been living with her in Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel. Izdihar then attempted to have her daughter registered at the Interior Ministry in Israel given their current residence within the State and Izdihar's status as an Israeli citizen, but was refused. Again, the reason given was that Qadar was born in Nabulus. Izdihar has been going to the Interior Ministry on multiple occasions (with all the appropriate documentation) but has continually been denied identity papers for her daughter. Izdihar fears much for her daughter's future because it rests in uncertainty. The fact that three year old Qadar has no identity papers implies she is not registered by the government, and therefore registering her in school and ensuring access to health care is also put into question." http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:47 AM (You have to scroll down a bit if you click on the link.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:56 AM Well than that is an issue, but it does not prove I'm wrong ... I am familiar with the citizenship issue myself through my son's wife (she is a citizen by the Law of Return)if they had a child it would be an Israeli citizen automatically ... what I posted can be found at various sites throughout the web, and I have checked it out. Check it out yourself. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM Well than that is an issue, but it does not prove I'm wrong Yes it does. It proves that the right of citizenship you are talking about only applies to people with Jewish ancestry. Which proves my point about Israel's laws that discriminate against people who are not Jews, or who do not have Jewish ancestry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 06 - 03:03 AM I think the Law of Return means that you have a right to citizenship if you return. If, on the other hand, you are a Jew living in Chicago, you are not automatically a citizen of Israel. You must actually go to Israel to be granted citizenship. If you have never been to Israel, you are not a citizen. As usual, Martin is full of sh**. Maybe he would like to explain this contorted and confusing statement, "just cause devisifness. None of your fanaticism will ever be implicated." Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:41 AM Well, gee, Carol, wasn't Israel established as a homeland for Jewish people, people who had deprived of a homeland for two millenia? If that is the founding premise of Israel, does it really seem unfair to offer citizenship to Jews? Yes, there were many Palestinians displaced as a result of the establishment of Israel - there is a tangled web of reasons for this displacement, and the blame can't really be placed on the majority of the current citizens of Israel. Israel was established before I was born, and it seems to me it's time to forget the injustices committed then and deal with the present situation. Israel exists as a Jewish homeland, and it's not likely to go away. What needs to be done now, is the establishment of a homeland for Paelstinians, a homeland that allows Palestinians a standard of living equal to that of the Israelis (and Jewish Israelis appear to have a very good standard of living). -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM There is a new generation of Israelis ... views are changing and slowly, better than never, land is being given back to the Palestinians. All sides have to have an understanding of each other. I'm amazed by how many people I meet, are ignorant of Israel, and they are equally so of the Palestinians. Here is an interesting website if one care to take a look ... Arabs for Israel sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM here it is .. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM It appears the link maker isn't working .. here's the URL: http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:26 PM Carol Martin Six Do any of you think that you will change each other's Minds? This has the makings of a good discussion but there is too much anger here. I'm learning a lot about the subject but for pete's sake stop the fighting or give up. Raptor(not a Jew) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM No, you can't change CarolC's mind. I created this thread to show just how anti-Israel, anti Jewish she and others are here and I have succeeded. Thanks for the opportunity. Watch for it to happen again. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM I've always suspected that CarolC was an anti-Texan just like Little Hawk. Once I have all of my proof I'll unmask her for the anti-Texan she really is. Carol - The eyes of Texas are upon you. All the livelong day !! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:00 PM There are plenty of good excuses for being Anti-Texan. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:07 PM That was a personal attack and I demand that it be deleated !!!! Then Little Hawk should have his pee-pee whacked with a hair brush. Damn Yankee !!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,guest Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM Carole writes "By the way, trying to make Israel look good by comparing it to a totalitarian state like Saudi Arabia is not a good way to try to get your point across." You see - this is a double standard that Carole and many others don't get. Jews don't have rights in most Arab countries, and most of those are totalitarian states with very poor human rights records and unethical governments which also support Arab militant and terrorist groups with clear goals towards the destruction of Israel. Israel is completely surrounded by enemies (except for Egypt and Jordon, who have managed to recognise and work with the Jewish state). How come this is never mentioned or championed by Carole C. as she so vigorously champions the Palestinian cause? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:58 PM CarolC is, of course, wrong when she says that Jews can (probably) be citizens of Saudi Arabia. In point of fact, Jews are not permitted to be citizens of Saudi Arabia. Companies that advertise for people to work in Saudi Arabia are required to carefully screen applicants to ensure that they hire no Jews. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:01 PM Well, Martin, Carol has a point - and so do you. Now if the two of you could begin to see the truth in the other's point of view, we might have the makings of a very fruitful discussion. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM BTW Begin the Beguine ... Christians, Bhuddists, and all other infidels are not allowed to be granted citizenship in the Saudi ... citizenship is only reserved for Muslims, and Muslims only. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM Well, Martin, Carol has a point - and so do you. Now if the two of you could begin to see the truth in the other's point of view, we might have the makings of a very fruitful discussion. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM Six, I'm not surprised. My point was to correct the impression that CarolC was trying to cultivate about how well Jews are treated in Saudi Arabia in comparison to the discrimination against Arabs in Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Anonny Mouse Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:48 PM Read this thread with great interest. Of course, I've been around here far too little to comment on anti-semitic threads/posts, etc. Martin: yer obviously in a much better position to evaluate such posts than me. I can honestly say this is the first forum I've been on that has such a post. I'm not much anti-anything ('cept for Nazis!!!). Honestly, I think most folks here avoid such inflammatory kinds of posts...but like I said, I'm relatively new here. Simplicitly stated, all this jingoistic pro and con will need to cease. My 2 cents, probably worth less. BTW, my "P" key is MIA. Looks like I'll have to order in a new keyboard for one, lousy key!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:51 PM "Then Little Hawk should have his pee-pee whacked with a hair brush." Usually, one has to pay for that! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: LilyFestre Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM Just having read maybe 15 posts or so of this thread, I think it is very interesting that Bobert continues to babble on about how Martin starts the same types of threads. Hmmm, well excuse me, but Bobert, your threads appear much more often with the same topic. The name George Bush ring a bell? Good thread Martin, very interesting. I'll be reading more. Michelle |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: autolycus Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:52 PM As a Jew, I feel relieved that despite the volleys of abuse, most posters remain supportive or neutral vis-a-vis Jews. I would appreciate it if every question gets a direct answer. Having read thru the thread, lots of pointful questions have remained unanswered. One response that I wish we read at all on threads like this is, "I don't know." "It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen." Oliver Wendell Holmes. Despite para 2 above, I don't imagine that all of the action is in the realm of the rational, tho' the rational side of me wishes desperately that it was. I take it as a matter of course that there may be some anti-Jewish opinion among catters, as there is anti-lotsofthings, and there is, more clearly, much pro-Jewish and neutral-Jewish opinion, too. Some of us Jews can live with it as something we can't do much about. Possibly the prevalence of the phrase "anti-semitism" is a direct consequence of the Shoah (tho' Arabs are Semites !!). There are, of course, any numbers of groups that some people are anti. I'd like to know what lashing out aggressively at an opponent is supposed to achieve. Persuasion? Winning an argument? Winning a war by other means? Reading this thread has felt to me somewhat like watching fragments of a variety of chess matches being played simultaneously. Would nutmeg work in a home-made spaghetti? Auto. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:03 PM I've never heard Bobert complain that we were anti-Bobert. Martin, on the other hand, continues to whine: Nobody likes me Everybody hates me Think I'll eat some worms. Martin just wants attention. Why don't you PM the dude and arrange a quiet little get-together. You sound like two of a kind to me. You probably appreciate his opinions about women, too. Talk about self-loathing! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:04 PM The above post should have been addressed to Michelle. Sorry, we cross posted. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM Reading this thread has felt to me somewhat like watching fragments of a variety of chess matches being played simultaneously. I'd say it's more like a bunch of people simultaneously playing in matches of chess, bare-knuckle fighting, poker and tennis. Against opponents who are playing Blind Man's Buff, tag and uphill skiiing. It gets confusing. But essentially I think autolycus has it right. And most especially in saying "I would appreciate it if every question gets a direct answer." I wish more people could treat threads about issues that carry an emotional weight as discussions rather than as games or fights, or an occasioin to throw insults around. I don't think the point should be to win an argument, it should be to get a better understanding of issues that divide people, and of where it is the disagreements actually lie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:25 PM I still find it odd that the Jews are the only persecuted group in modern history (as far as I know) to get a special word, "anti-semitism", coined with which to mark anyone who, say, disagrees with the state of Israel's policies in some way. Why don't Blacks, Canadians, Germans, Australian Aboriginals, Tibetans, Armenians, Kurds, Sunnis, Shias, Swiss, Norwegians, Belgians, Chinese, Russians, topless dancers, red-haired people, dachshunds, dentists, and Newfoundlanders get their own special words with which to brand all people who disagree with them? If we Canadians, for example, had such a special word as "anti-semitism" which we could regularly use in the press and movies to single out and vilify any people who appear to be disagreeing with us about policy (or anything else), then we would be able to destroy political careers and ruin people's professional reputations much more easily, and that would give us greater power all over the place. On second thought...forget it. We'd probably just end up surrounded by implacable enemies eventually. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:41 PM Joe, agreeing with evil is not my style. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Azizi Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM McGrath of Harlow wrote: "I wish more people could treat threads about issues that carry an emotional weight as discussions rather than as games or fights, or an occasioin to throw insults around. I don't think the point should be to win an argument, it should be to get a better understanding of issues that divide people, and of where it is the disagreements actually lie". -snip- Thanks, McGrath for so succiently putting into words a concern and a wish of mine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:15 PM Not everyone was taking snips, throwing mud and playing games. But it does disturb me the lack if insensitivity displayed by a few. This can be blamed only on ignorance and misunderstanding. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:27 AM When several million Canadian men, women, and small children are rounded up, forced from their homes, have their possessions stolen, are transported in cattle cars and then either worked to death, starved to death or killed outright, all in retaliation for simply being Canadian, maybe then Little Hawk, someone wil coin that word you seem to long for. Until then I'd be grateful that no one has found it necessary thus far. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM Good point, Auggie. What then, would you call the Armenians or the Sudanese? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: nutty Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:53 AM LITTLE HAWK ........the reason that Anti-semitism is recognised specifically is because it has been around for at least 1000 years in just about every part of the world. For info relating to Britain and Europe ...... SEE HERE |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:23 PM Oh, I'm well aware of that, Nutty. (and Auggie) Yes, it's been around for a very long time. Still, I think the term "anti-semitism" has been overused, and used in an irresponsible way in recent historical times, and that that has backfired upon the very people who are most inclined to use it. It has become a self-serving propaganda term, a knee-jerk reaction. Look, suppose you have someone among a group of people. Let's call him "Ed". Ed is quite paranoid. This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons. Anyway, here's the thing about Ed. He is constantly accusing people of not liking him, just because he IS who he is. "You hate me, don't you?" Ed says to people. "Don't deny it. I know that deep down you hate me and would like to see me dead! Well, I'm not going to put up with it. I'm going to see that you don't get away with your hatred of me." This goes on for years and years. Ed is so convinced that most people are against him that he is on constant guard, just watching for any sign of prejudice on their part. This makes it harder and harder for Ed to have friends. In fact, Ed has almost no friends by the time he reaches adulthood. As time goes by, Ed notices that fewer and fewer people want to be anywhere near him. He notices that people are avoiding him, looking at him strangely, and they're not inviting him to their birthday parties. More evidence of rampant anti-Edism! Ed's paranoia grows by leaps and bounds, and he arms himself to the teeth, fearing an attack at any moment. In the meantime, many of the people who live anywhere near Ed actually are starting to hate and fear him, since extreme negativity breeds extreme counter-negativity in most people. They start arming themselves also, fearing that Ed may go berserk and attack them. This causes Ed to grow even more fearful, so he decides the best thing to do might be to pre-emptively attack them first. In case it doesn't work out, he wires the whole neighborhood up to an atomic bomb which he can trigger at the last extremity..."If I go down, then they're all gonna go down with me!" Assuming Ed can find a girl willing to marry him, he will teach his kids to think the same way he does... You can see where all this is going, can't you... If anyone believes that their people are the world's number one most martyred and put-upon people EVER...then they are in the same position as ED...and they are creating their own personal hell. I have seen this done in recent times by plenty of people: some Jews, some Native Americans, some blacks, some Muslims, the white supremacists and survivalists, the KKK, the Nazis, and so on. It's not smart. It never helps. It makes enemies out of potential friends. It creates havoc. It is self-defeating in the end. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:48 PM Sorry LH ... your post doesn't cut it. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM I will never ever forget the holocaust ... and I will never ever shy away from ever it happening again ... and I will never, ever turn my head away from any group albeit white supremests, religeous fundimentalists that advocate the destruction of my mother's people. I will also champion the cause of any other race, religeous group who also are the target of such absolute destruction and hate. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:26 PM And I'm right there with you Six. All people on concience are. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:13 PM That should read - All people OF concience are. As I mentioned before - my Uncle Jim was a country doctor that ended up being in one of the first Mash type units in WW2. We was one of the first doctors there when the Buchenwald death camp was liberated. The stories that he told this impressionable young man will stay with me forever. I understand when folks say - "Never Again". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM Funny, that. My ex father-in-law was a political prisoner in Buchenwald. He may have met your Uncle. (Long shot, I know.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:38 PM I understand exactly how you feel, guys. Now keep in mind that there are generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims growing up that feel the same way. They feel like "Ed", as I described him. So do some Jews. So do some blacks. So do some Kurds and Armenians. So do some Native Americans and Tibetans. And that means further fear, hatred, and conflict as these stories are clung to, repeated bitterly, and passed on the the next generation. They all have their "Buchenwald" stories too, their memories of victimization. The stories are real. You are not alone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM Nothing compares to the holocaust. I am not belittling other hates in the world, past or present. But to compare other persecutions compared to the holocaust is like comparing the low minors in baseball to the major leagues. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Teribus Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM OK let's take a look at Little Hawk's "Ed", who he is now trying like hell to spin to win back his own populist standing within this forum, after having got it completely wrong by introducing "Ed". Little Hawk - "I think the term "anti-semitism" has been overused, and used in an irresponsible way in recent historical times" Perhaps LH you should have given some concrete and verifiable examples. Maybe a brief reprise of the actual holocaust followed by some quotes from the leaders of the nations neighbouring the State of Israel emphasising their desire to eliminate Israel, exterminate it and drive it's citizens into sea. Such sources are plentiful and are clearly documented, so no problem for you there Little Hawk. So exactly where in your analogy is "Ed's" paranoia explained away as - "This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons." Precisely when did you join the ranks of those denying that the holocaust ever happened - "This MAY BE because" - No fucking maybe about it Little Hawk - It damn well happened it happened because all those Germans in their lovely uniforms, tanks and aircraft that you so admire let it happen, participated in ensuring that it happened, and did everything in their power to ensure that the erradication was as complete as it could possibly be. Please do not come out with analogies based on " MAY BE BECAUSE" - Beause that simply denies history as everybody on this planet knows it. If there is any nation on this Earth who rightfully should be apprehensive with regard to threats of annihilation it is the Jews, don't dare try to trivialise that, it is a factor that should clearly be taken into account. As for the salvage attempt of your rather pathetic analogy:- Those - "generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims" - Exactly who the hell has ever voiced the desire to "wipe them from the map", who the hell has ever voiced the desire to, "Drive them into the sea", who the hell has ever voiced the aim of exterminating their entire race - NO ONE - FACT. Do not make patronising comparisons where none exist, you should have a greater regard for the intelligence of those who read and contribute to this forum. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:10 PM Drawing up league tables of genocide doesn't seem right somehow. The "holocaust" was indeed unique, because of the way it applied industrial and bureaucratic techniques to the process of killing groups defined as undesirable - Jews, but also handicapped people, homosexuals, and most especially Gypsies (where the age-old persecution has continued in various forms over the past 60 years, and no term equivalent to "anti-semitism" has been available as a way of tryimng to draw a line). But all genocides tend to have unique aspects. Cambodia with its Killing Fields, Ruanda with its "kill-your-neighbours-or-else" technique of devolved slaughter, the Atlantic Slave Trade, the process of colonisation in America and Australia, where natives were liable to be seen as vermin to be extirpated... There is an error people often fall into of talking as if these differences did not exist, and as if you could simply equate one historical crime with another historical crime. But there is also another error, which is to use some particular quality of one such crime as a way of seeking to diminish or deny the reality or significance of another crime. The tragedy of the Palestinians, in which their country was indeed "wiped from the map", is not the same as that of the Jews and the Gypsies and others who were mechanistically murdered in the Holocaust - but it is not negligible, something to be shrugged off as one of those things that happens. In many ways it has a great deal in common with other episodes in the history of the persecution of the Jews, where communities have been brutally uprooted and exiled. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:14 PM My "populist" standing??? Don't be silly, teribus. I don't imagine myself as having any standing here whatsoever. I come to this place because it's an addictive habit of mine, not because I am some kind of big wheel here, I assure you. My frequency of posting is not done in a search for popularity, it's a behavorial addiction. Okay? I realize the significance of the Holocaust, as you describe it, and I agree with your description. I also realize that Stalin killed more of his own people inside Russia, far more, than Hitler ever did inside his country (and occupied areas), but we don't hear as much about that for some reason. It was another Holocaust. The Armenians suffered a Holocaust by the Turks. The Beothuks in Newfoundland were wiped out to the last man, woman, and child by the white people who arrived from Europe, and so were some other Native tribes. The Tibetans have lost their entire country and its cultural heritage to the Chinese. The Palestinian youths DO see their situation with the same sense of outrage that you express regarding the Nazi persecution of the Jews. They do. It's obvious. I agree that no one has threatened to wipe out their entire race. Obviously. I agree with you that they would be mistaken to compare their situation to that of Jews in Nazi Germany and say it's equally bad. It's not! But...they have their own distorted perception of reality, just like most people do, and you have to deal with it. They were not born evil, they have been affected by what they heard while growing up. They take it for granted that they are the number One victims around right now! (just like "Ed") That makes them dangerous, just like Ed. I agree entirely with your perceptions regarding the heinous crimes of Nazi Germany upon the Jews. I do not disagree with you. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again. I never have and never will deny that the Holocaust happened. I know it happened. My father was in the Allied armies in '44-45, teribus, and he witnessed quite a bit in the process of fighting his way across Germany. The only question is...why does a threat to Jews specifically push your buttons the most, while a threat to Islamic people pushes Osama's buttons the most? When we solve that mystery, and get past the kind of automatic primitive tribal allegiances that most people cling to in deciding who they like and who they don't like on this planet, then we may have peace on Earth. But that's just too idealistic to be taken seriously, right? So get ready for the next bloodbath in the name of tribe, culture, religion, and all those other strange made-up ideas that people cling to in their search for identity. I don't believe in any of it. I may enjoy some of it, but I know it's temporary and arbitrary, and not worth killing for. (As for WWII airplanes I don't specialize in admiring the German ones above all others, and your implication that I do is snide and self-serving. It's a cheap shot. More than that, it's an attempt to paint me as a closet Nazi sympathizer, which I am not. I think the Nazis were an insane and criminal outfit and richly deserved to be utterly defeated. So did Mussolini. So did Tojo. So did Stalin (ironically, since he happened to be on the Allied side). My taste in planes goes like this: I think the best looking one of all is probably the American P-51-D Mustang. Some close runners-up: Kawasaki Hien Ki-61, Bf 109 F, Macchi 202 Folgore, Spitfire, Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Me 262. I like pretty well all WWII airplanes in a historical and aesthetic sense. I wouldn't be interested in killing anyone with them, however. It's just history. For similar reasons, I like all the great galleons and wooden ships of the age of sail, and the Roman and Greek galleys of the Classical age in the Mediterranean. If I knew what Carthaginian ships looked like, I'm sure I'd like them too.) Just because someone says something you don't agree with, teribus, is no justification for implying that he's a Nazi sympathizer, and in doing so you are engaging in precisely the kind of thing I am objecting to in my comments on "Anti-semitism" in this thread. You're branding other people...kind of like making them wear a yellow star, so everyone can see how evil they are. People don't appreciate being branded. Life is just not that simple that you can divide it up into "the good people" and "the bad people" so capriciously. Good people do bad things because they're scared, because they're confused, because they're under extreme pressure, because they think they're defending their country, and because they usually don't know any better or think they simply have no choice. Besides, if they happen to win a war then THEY write the histories, and everyone talks about what heroes they were for a long time afterward. People are easily led down the garden path by political and religious leaders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM "Nothing compares to the holocaust. I am not belittling other hates in the world, past or present. But to compare other persecutions compared to the holocaust is like comparing the low minors in baseball to the major leagues." WW2 cost TWENTY million Russian lives. Who killed them?.......I don't think they all fell down the stairs. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:40 PM Those - "generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims" - Exactly who the hell has ever voiced the desire to "wipe them from the map", who the hell has ever voiced the desire to, "Drive them into the sea", who the hell has ever voiced the aim of exterminating their entire race - NO ONE - FACT. Do not make patronising comparisons where none exist, you should have a greater regard for the intelligence of those who read and contribute to this forum. Teribus Tell me Teribus, does the word crusades ring any bells? You should be certain of your FACT before claiming it to be so. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM Well, I don't think it's a case of comparing numbers and deciding who "wins". What I am trying to draw attention to is the tendency of most people to think that the suffering of their own people is more important than the suffering of any other people anywhere. That's what I call "tribalism". It's a backward, primitive attitude. It's what is driving mobs of fanatical Muslims into the streets right now to burn European embassies, because of a few cartoons in Denmark. That's lunacy. It's what has driven militant Jews to call anyone who disagrees with them or with Israel about anything an Anti-semite. It's not good, no matter who does it. I am not taking sides here against Jews or anyone else, I am stating a principle that applies equally to all people. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM 'Palestinian TV: Extermination of Jews and subjugation of Christian is goal of history By Itamar Marcus & Barbara Crook, Palestinian Media Watch Bulletin, May 16, 2005. Introduction The final stage of history will be the subjugation of all Christian countries under Islam and the extermination of every single Jew - this according to the Palestinian Authority (PA) religious leader during Friday's Sermon. The Jews are so evil, Ibrahim Mudayris teaches, that they cannot be subjugated like the Christian countries, and therefore the only solution awaiting them is death - literally the extermination of every Jew. In his words: "The day will come and we shall rule America, Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews."' More info here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Teribus Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM Crusades, Don T? As we are discussing the State of Israel I think we are somewhere in the region of 700 years off the generations of young Palestinians and Muslims that LH was talking about. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Ebbie Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM "This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons." Precisely when did you join the ranks of those denying that the holocaust ever happened - "This MAY BE because" - No fucking maybe about it Little Hawk " teribus Whether disingenuously or honestly, teribus misread what Little Hawk said. Instead of reading "Perhaps Ed was paranoid and fearful and dangerous because his family had had a rough time of it in the past", teribus understood it as "It could be that Ed's family had had a rough time of it in the past- we can't be sure- and that is why Ed is paranoid, etc." Frankly, I suspect disingenuousness. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:08 PM "The Palestinian religious leader" - the English language is a great one for ambiguity isn't it? That expression there could be read as meaning "this is the local equivalent of Ayatollah Khomneini, or the Pope - the man in charge. What he says carries a lot of weight"; or it could equally mean something a lot less impressive (and less threatening), as with "Nick Griffin, the English political leader" (well, he is the leader of an English political party after all...) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:16 PM Don T, as you minimize the holocaust, you maximize potential anti-semitism. 20 million Russians in WWII? Certainly not exterminated in the same way. And you are certain of that fact, I presume? Get a grip. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:20 PM Not the point, T. As the existence of Israel is justified on the basis of previous occupation over 1000 years ago, any Muslim persecution within that time scale must be pertinent. You can't have it both ways. Like L.H. I am not taking sides, and am opposed to no one, but if Israel is to hold some special status based on their experiences, they can hardly object if others want the same privilege, based on theirs. Otherwise, the playing field has to much of a slant for my liking. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:33 PM Correct, Ebbie. What I meant was simply this: there are an infinite number of reasons why someone like "Ed" can have such a paranoid attitude, and we may or may not be aware of what those reasons are. I was in no way implying that the Holocaust did not happen. I know it happened just as much as I know that I am sitting here typing this. I need no further convincing by anyone to know that it happened. By the way, Peace, those lunatic ramblings you allude to on the part of Muslims who think that all Jews must be exterminated and that Muslims will eventually rule the whole world...yeah, those are insane statements by Muslim fanatics who are just as bad as the Nazis in their basic state of mind. And we all have reason to fear such people. I fear them regardless of which side they are on in this Jewish-Muslim dispute in the Middle East. There are similar lunatic statements by Evangelical Christians out there right now who say that when Jesus returns he is going to destroy all the wicked people in the world. Lurid descriptions are given describing how all the wicked people (which includes, of course, all non-Christians with the possible exception of the Jews whom some evangelicals believe are still the "chosen people") will be cast into a flaming pit. So, this would be all atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, Janes, Sikhs, Native American traditionals, etc, etc... Jesus will just move his hand slightly, and the Earth will open up and swallow them all. They will fall, screaming and howling into the flaming pit where they will burn in torment for all eternity. This is in Christian literature right now. If you want to get the Muslim public upset, truly upset about Christian civilization, just direct thenm to a website that quotes only that kind of stuff from the Christian evangelicals. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:35 PM "Don T, as you minimize the holocaust, you maximize potential anti-semitism. 20 million Russians in WWII? Certainly not exterminated in the same way. And you are certain of that fact, I presume? Get a grip." The figure IS historical fact Martin. Look it up. Twenty Million is the official figure (tho' it may be more). Not killed on a production line basis, no. Millions slaughtered during the German advance, when they destroyed everything and everybody in their path. Thousands of Russian POWs starved, or worked to death, many of them used as human mine detectors in front of German vehicles. Again five minutes research will confirm the facts. I most CERTAINLY DO NOT dispute, or belittle the Holocaust. I posted my comment merely to draw your attention to a FACT you seem unwilling to accept. The Jews are not the only people to have suffered. Read and inwardly digest. Then consider this also; there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card, and smashing Palestinian villages, and killing civilians, women, and children is well beyond that limit. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM "there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card" And Palestinians have been doing it for decades. However, the figure of 6 million as a percentage of the 'race' is a helluva lot more than the figure of 20 million as a percentage of the Russian people (USSR). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Justa Picker Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:27 PM No privately owned internet web site (hosted anywhere in the world), is under ANY obligation whatsoever to uphold the 1st ammendment of the United States. What an owner of an internet forum ALLOWS the world to see on his privately owned and operated web site, clearly is an editorial statement in and of itself. Draw your own conclusions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:27 PM I think that what Little Hawk is describing can also be called a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you continue to dwell in despair and think that everyone hates you, pretty soon they will. By refusing to acknowlege the suffering of others, you only earn their scorn. "Poor me," never garners much respect. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM Exactly, Guest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:00 AM "From: Peace - PM Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM "there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card" And Palestinians have been doing it for decades. However, the figure of 6 million as a percentage of the 'race' is a helluva lot more than the figure of 20 million as a percentage of the Russian people (USSR)." True Peace, but that is an argument that one might expect to hear from children in primary school, which would not be accepted by school staff as a justification. "He did it to me first" is not an acceptable excuse from any adult either. As for the percentages, tell that to all the Russians who lost loved ones. Their response might shock, but shouldn't surprise you. Incidentally, I assume that you have numerical evidence for the statement as to the total number of Jewish people worldwide? If not, perhaps you could tell me the basis on which the statement was made. You have always been one of the more reliable contributors to discussions on this forum (I stress that this comment is sincere, not sarcastic), so I would like to hear your answer. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM Justa Picker, perhaps that is the point I have been trying to make. A Google search on anti-semitism could invariably lead to this web-site. One in their right mind has to ask themselves why they are associated with it. because it is so rampant here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:22 PM "A Google search on anti-semitism could invariably lead to this web-site." That's not because of anything inherently anti-Semitic about this web site or about the people who post here. The reason for that is all the threads YOU have started on the subject. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM Draw your own conclusions. I'm not clear what conclusions you imply we should draw Justa Picker. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,TIA Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM Actually, I just tried, and it doesn't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:41 PM Not yet. It will. And you are quite the moron for denying it's roaring precense here, Guest. Your wallow in your ignorance. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:44 PM people are more concerned about muslims and islam than the jews. MG you are overeacting and i fear you have a self-hate complex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM Like GUEST,TIA, I did a google search on anti-Semitism. I found nothing about Mudcat, but I did find THIS. Interesting. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM This is written by a self-loathsome Jew. It will never be in any of the Jewish press because it is not what the organized religion supports as a whole. In other words, it's crap. And Guest, I love myself so much, it hurts with the pride I have. You are so wrong, I got quite a chuckle out of it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM "self-loathsome" is not a word. You probably meant "self-loathing." You're foaming at the mouth, Martin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM Martin: I am a little troubled by your assertions. While there is no question there have been lots of nasty remarks aimed at you personally, I would like to hear from you specifically what posts, threads, or posters you are referring to in your view of "Anti-semitism on the Mudcat". Enlighten me. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM Amos - You have to know that he is unable to respond to your request. And it will be your fault somehow. Or mine. Illogical - but there you have it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM Eh there is another Thread started by the British Nazi Party that anyone who feels that anti-semetism is rife on the Mudcat may want to visit and actually discuss the issue with very real anti- semites visiting the Mudcat this weekend. If I had started this particular thread I would long since have left it and would be all over the Nazi Thread by now. Who better to vent at than the ultimate anti-semites, neo nazis? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:04 PM Thanks, Guest. How very true. But they are just visiting. There are quite a few others who live here permanently. Amos, nothing could enlighten you. You are perpetually in the dark. Wesley S., you need to fix your own guilt before you can be addressed sensibly on anything. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM When Martin Gibson accuses any of the regular Mudcatters, it's not because of any actual anti-Semitism, it's because they have posted something he doesn't agree with. Martin is too much of a coward to face up to REAL anti-Semites. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM Guest - I would never try to say that there have never been any anti-semites on the Mudcat. But to claim that this place is overrun with them is just silly. And I suspect that some of them have been drawn to this place by a certin Mudcat member - the one who started this thread. But this place is based on freedom of speech with little or no censorship. So folks have to realise that trolls are going to visit from time to time. And some will take up residence. We've seen that. So when you see a post that you don't like we all have the option of either engaging with the troll - or blowing it off. At least that's my opinion. YMMV. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:40 PM I would like to hear from you specifically what posts, threads, or posters you are referring to in your view of "Anti-semitism on the Mudcat". I think it'll be a very very long time before you get a non-evasive response to that, Amos. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:21 PM The one who started this thread has faced anti-semitism, has had his children face it, and all to well knows what it is and can identify it. From your Guest positon, it's easy to identify that you are the regular Mudcatter who is the coward and has the problem, pal. I would say that 99% of the time, those who are accused of being trolls are the ones that get the Wesley S types of this forum the most uncomfortable in their own skin. It's easy for them to just dismiss real truth as coming from "trolls." The word "troll" here is extremely over used. The expression "don't feed the trolls" is pretty much the same as saying "ban those books." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM Bingo, Wesley. "Martin Gibson", that paragon of courage and knowledge, is by far the worst person imaginable to put forward the notion of Mudcat antisemitism. As has been pointed out by many, including Jewish, posters, the best thing by far that he could do for any of his causes would be to disappear. Then maybe a rational discussion of anti-Semitism could occur. If a neo-Nazi group wanted to foment antisemitism on Mudcat, the best step they could take would be to fund "Martin". But they don't have to--they get "Martin" 's wonderful contributions for free. Such a deal--for them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM In case I wasn't clear enough for you "Martin"---you have no credibility on this or any other topic, with the possible exception of guitars--and I suspect you're shaky there too. You have insisted that Mudcat is just a game to you--just a way to kill time and pull chains. Fine. That says everything we ever need to know about the worth of anything you say. I for one will not waste any more time than this playing your unending stupid little game. This may be a worthy topic, but with your "participation", it's doomed to be nothing but yet another classic descent into the gutter and yet another magnificent demonstration of your paranoia. I hope others realize this too. After all you've told us that you are "dehumanized every day". The process is complete. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:37 PM The only time I would want Martin Gibson with me on ANYTHING is if I was being chased by a bear. Then all I have to do is run faster than he can. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Divis Sweeney Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:28 PM Martin where does your anger come from ? Accept that people are allowed to hold different viewpoints to yourself. If we all agreed with you on a thread, I imagine you would start another one. You come across like a spoilt kid sometimes. Few people of your faith even agree with you. How do you feel about those members ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:31 PM Fine, Ron Davies. Just fine. But everyone knows that you are full of crap because all you do here is waste your time giving me a hard time because you so easily take to heart most of what I say and are so offended by it and how it relates to you. The ones who get their chains pulled are you and your ilk, Ron, because you allow me to and it is just so easy to do so. Like I've said before, it takes you 2 or 3 posts in a row to say what you have to say because you are so hot and bothered by my truth. Believe me, I have more support here than you and your scumbags realize. Many more than you think speak through me. Believe me, your name is bantered about plenty behind the scenes here as being one of the biggest jerks and idiots here. That's what many others realize, Ron. Why don't you disappear, Ron? Plenty would be happy if you do. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM Doofus Sweeney. Most everyone in my faith agrees with me. I certainly know more in my faith than you do. How many Jews in your neighborhood? When was the last time you went to a synagoge? Just how was your Hanukah? Been to a briss lately? Let me give you a tip.........(sic) My anger is based on hate that emenates here against Jews. But it's not really anger. It's more of I consider the source of where that hate comes from and the pseudo-intellectualism along with the ignorance that drives it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:52 PM Symbiosis is a wonderful thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:59 PM Your speech is full of "everyone" and other sweeping generalities full of hatred, Martin, but you see only the imagined hatred of others. Your crude and nullifying remarks have all the weight of hot air mixed with methane, a mixture I know you are familiar with, but you could have much better conversations if you weren't so dedicated to not communicating. For all your pride, the side of yourself that you reveal here, if no where else, is that of an anti-social maladjusted and somewhat paranoid hate-monger. Your complaints about bias from others therefore have no real standing because you have nullified your own case. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Divis Sweeney Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:16 PM Martin there is a long standing Jewish business here in my town and they follow their faith. I am a lifelong friend to all of them and respect them. There is not a large Jewish community in the North of Ireland. I can only speak for myself when I say any Jewish family that came to live in my area would be as welcome as any culture or faith.Yes I would say you do know a lot more about your faith than I do. Only once at a synagoge for a funeral. I was born and raised a Catholic, but do not attend the church and am now lapsed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:19 PM "Many more than you think speak through me." Yes, and we believe you, Martin. (tee-hee) Now do you feel better? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:34 PM Those Martin sympathizers are everywhere. I have a list. :D A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM No list, Amos. Just hundreds of good behind the scene PMs. Doubt it all you want. I could give a royal crap. Divis. An honest answer on your part and my point proven. So many like you have the same answer but do not have the balls to admit it. They are just not that close to the fire. In fact they are very, very far away from some real facts. My hat is tipped to you, sir. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,dame judith kneesup Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:13 PM howdy doody martin. Glad you got all my pm's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM Not yours, bitch. You are not a member. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,dame judith kneesup Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM I love it when you talk dirty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:40 PM If a neo-Nazi group wanted to foment antisemitism on Mudcat the best step they could take would be to fund "Martin" (Ron Davies up the thread.) That possibility has often occurred to me. I don't mean the funding bit, but the possibility that when the man has said that the whole character is just a fake, intended to annoy people, he might have actually been speaking the truth. No way of knowing one way or the other. But the effect is the same either way. ....................... That article by Michael Neumann that someone linked to earlier is worth reading. It approaches a lot of the issues involved from an unusual angle. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM That part of the character is not fake. More and more of the character is not that fake as it once was. If you don't see the change, you truly are a moron. I am not here to promote anti-semitism. Far from it. As a proud Jew, I am hear to point out that many here are guilty of it and hide under a fake banner of tolerance, while at the same time are really some of the worst enemies Jews have. So while I do not take some things that seriously, this I do. And it grieves me that so many in the folk community are at the very fringe of society and common sense. Again, there are many, mostly Americans, who agree with me. The article by Michael Neumann is mostly propaganda. Now there is your hate plant and you are to stupid to realize it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,dame judith kneesup Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:58 PM Couldn't agree more martin old bean. That fake banner of tolerance really gives me the pip. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:41 PM "As a proud Jew, I am hear to point out that many here are guilty of it and hide under a fake banner of tolerance, while at the same time are really some of the worst enemies Jews have." I agree Martin. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:43 PM .. I do tend to think it has a lot to do with ignorance, and misundersting .... anyway, I hope it does. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:55 PM Download the entire MC site forum (easy to do) then search the DB you have accessed, follow the names, and post your diatribe of hating-the-H8ers to a blog.
It might make interesting reading.
Just don't pull things out of context.
Sincerely,
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:55 PM I do not think there is a vast number of anti-semites on the Mudcat usually. I do however think that there are certain people who have worked hard to earn very little respect. Not because of the Faith they say they hold but because of their appauling attitude and complete closed mindedness. Throwing accusations around and getting them backed up by someone else more able to discuss them for you is really quite pathetic. This person crying foul isn't unpopular because they are Jewish. They are unpopular because they are Ignorant and Cruel and in need of some kind of anger management therapy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:55 PM Well, gee, Carol, wasn't Israel established as a homeland for Jewish people, people who had deprived of a homeland for two millenia? If that is the founding premise of Israel, does it really seem unfair to offer citizenship to Jews? I think you misunderstand my point entirely, Joe. A more careful reading of my posts in the future might remedy that problem. As I said in my previous posts, I am only correcting misinformation given by others when I point out things like that. I am not giving an opinion about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM LOL You've found me out, Wesley. Yes, I am anti-Texas (but not anti-Texan, really... there are too many Texans I like for me to be that). I've even been to Austin, and aside from a really great vegetarian restaurant I found there, I didn't find much to like. Sorry. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:02 PM Please remove the above post. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:19 PM Jews don't have rights in most Arab countries, and most of those are totalitarian states with very poor human rights records and unethical governments which also support Arab militant and terrorist groups with clear goals towards the destruction of Israel. Israel is completely surrounded by enemies (except for Egypt and Jordon, who have managed to recognise and work with the Jewish state). How come this is never mentioned or championed by Carole C. as she so vigorously champions the Palestinian cause? I need to spend some time looking into these accusations that Jews don't have any rights in most Arab countries. I suspect that this is a bit of propagandistic hyperbole. I'm not going to have time to devote to this research right now, and I'm not sure when I will have time, but I will get to it. And to whatever extent Israel is surrounded by enemies, it's enemies that Israel, itself, has created with its expansionist agenda, and as a result of the manner in which the architects of the nascent state went about creating it. It didn't need to happen the way it did, but that result (enemies) is exactly what those architects of the state of Israel wanted, because it serves their expansionist agenda. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:41 PM I'm not for removing Carol's thread but Guests 05 Feb 06 - 10:58 PM. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 06 Feb 06 - 09:15 PM No, don't let them remove it, Six. It's obviously from a regular here and it is a testimony to what this thread is about along with anti-semitism disguised as anti-zionist rhetoric by a very bizzare group of ultra-liberal maggots. Hi gar GOY le Your suggestion is kind of dumb. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:02 PM Disturbing that it wasn't removed MG .... but you have a point, it is hard evidence of anti-semitism, and it remains etched right here in this thread. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:09 PM "Another name to be added to the list of mid-night visits?" In fact it's not just disturbing .... it is offensive, and exremely insensitive. Obviously they don't know here what that post means. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:24 PM They don't know much about anti-semitism at all 6. They don't know that they are party to it. That was the purpose of starting this thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:46 PM Oh, Bullshit, you two wankers; that offensive post is so obvious, and so ridiculous, that no obne bothered with it. I agree with you that it makes a very anti-semitic noise, but it strikes me as being by someone who wouldn't know the real thing if it dragged him off to a camp somewhere -- a juvenile asshole. But if a clone wants to remove it, fine. For you to decide that it is representative of the Mudcat, though, is as pathetic as that post itself, unless you're just on a witch-hunt of some kind, which I would find hard to understand. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 06 Feb 06 - 10:51 PM Not saying that it represents the Mudcat .... just offended it is left here. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:00 PM If you want to see some offensive posts that were left here just start checking some of Martins old posts. Like the one where he says "I hope you all have to watch your children die slow painful deaths" I agree - the "midnight" post was indeed offensive. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:07 PM "agree with you that it makes a very anti-semitic noise, but it strikes me as being by someone who wouldn't know the real thing if it dragged him off to a camp somewhere -- a juvenile asshole." I guess we should have not been offended here in my town when a bunch of juveniles sprayed some offensive Nazi hate graffiti on some buildings here ... your right they probably didn't have a clue ... but they where quite justifiably charged by the law and the disturbing, insensitive graffitti removed. What a civilized society would do. Sad thing is, that post what not by a juvenile, but an adult probably middleaged. Sure, there is mud slinging, personnal attacks, mindless posts ... but that post is undeniably disturbing. OK Amos (and I will not address you or anyone else here as a wanker) sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:09 PM Wesley ... I never saw that post by MG ... If I did I would certainly have expressed my opinion with it also. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:11 PM I was incorect. Here is the post I refered to : Subject: RE: BS: High Court Rules In Terry Schiavo Case From: Martin Gibson Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM I hope all of you who do not agree that her parents have no say get to watch your child die before your eyes, also. Deal with that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM Appreciate your restraint, Sir 6. Comment withdrawn. I get touchy about sweeping negative generalizations, but I shouldn't have aimed it at you. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:40 PM The Mudcat has a policy for dealing with posts like that one. We are supposed to ignore them in the thread, and send a PM to Joe Offer requesting their removal. I have done this in the past when I have found posts like that one, and they have been removed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:47 PM Message sent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 06 - 05:18 AM If the post picked out as overtly anti-semitic has been removed, could that be indicated in some way? Otherwise the comments about it reads as if they aimed at some other post here, but with no indication which one that might be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: robomatic Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:06 AM A couple of points, then my anti-semantic quote of choice: While I disagree with several mudcat posters over the past few seasons, even extremely disagree, I doubt that they would post HERE if they were truly anti-semitic. The real thing is not hard to find on the internet. Also, the quality of MG's postings has improved of late, whether or not I agree with MG, I really appreciate the comparative diminishment of previous tactics of purile abuse directed at others and lowering the standards of many threads. Well done MG, and if you needed help getting there, well done to the influence! From an episode of Seinfeld, wherein our hero had, for purely selfish purposes, induced his uncle to dump his girlfriend on the pretext that she was anti-semitic. As usually happened in such circumstances, Seinfeld was hoist by his own petard and by the end of the show he's trying to get his uncle back together with the woman: "You know you'll never do any better!" "But, Jerry, she's an anti-semit!" "Can you blame her?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Auggie Date: 07 Feb 06 - 04:16 PM Anti-semitism isn't hard to find away from the 'Cat (out in the real world) either. See the brief cut and paste below from today's Chicago Tribune. a.p. Northwestern University tenured engineering professor Arthur Butz commented in the Chicago Tribune and in the Iranian press that he agreed with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's assertions that the Holocaust is a myth. Butz, a tenured Northwestern professor since 1974, is known for denying that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews during World War II. Butz wrote that the Holocaust didn't happen, that it is a "deliberately contrived falsehood" and that its promulgation was motivated by the desire to create a Jewish state in the Middle East. About Ahmadinejad, he wrote: "I congratulate him on becoming the first head of state to speak out clearly on these issues and regret only that it was not a Western head of state."-Online Chicago Trib. 2/7/06 That a person who has acheived Butz' level of academic and professional success (for those of you ouside the US, Northwestern is a very well regarded school (hell, I couldn't get in... but I digress) can not only hold, but disseminate such a ludicrous opinion and still remain in a position of influence just boils my blood. Evidently, ignorance does not preclude one from gaining tenure at Northwestern. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:42 PM Anyone who denys that the holocaust happened is a complete idiot. I'm amazed that that kind of thinking exists. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: artbrooks Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM The jerk is an electrical engineer...which hardly qualifies him to comment upon the Holocaust as either a historical fact or as a precurser to subsequent events. The president of Northwestern University, Henry S. Bienen, had this to say: His [Butz's] latest statement, like his earlier writings and pronouncements, is a contemptible insult to all decent and feeling people. While I hope everyone understands that Butz's opinions are his own and in no way represent the views of the University or me personally, his reprehensible opinions on this issue are an embarrassment to Northwestern. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: artbrooks Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM Oh...300 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:04 PM It does exist, Wesley S and it's real so stop denying how narrow your little southern world is. From Northwestern University's web site today and as printed in the Chicago Sun-times: February 6 MEDIA CONTACT: Alan Cubbage at 847-491-4886 or a-cubbage@northwestern.edu Statement by Northwestern University President Henry S. Bienen Regarding Associate Professor Arthur Butz Northwestern University Associate Professor Arthur Butz recently issued a statement commending Iranian President Ahmadinejad's assertion that the Holocaust never happened. Butz is a Holocaust denier who has made similar assertions previously. His latest statement, like his earlier writings and pronouncements, is a contemptible insult to all decent and feeling people. While I hope everyone understands that Butz's opinions are his own and in no way represent the views of the University or me personally, his reprehensible opinions on this issue are an embarrassment to Northwestern. There is no question that the Holocaust is a well-documented historical fact. The University has a professorship in Holocaust Studies endowed by the Holocaust Educational Foundation. Northwestern offers courses in Holocaust Studies and organizes conferences of academic scholars who teach in areas relating to the Holocaust. In addition, Northwestern hosts a summer Institute for Holocaust and Jewish Civilization. And most recently, a fellowship in the political science department has been established in my name by the Holocaust Educational Foundation. In short, Northwestern University has contributed significantly to the scholarly research of the Holocaust and remains committed to doing so. Butz is a tenured associate professor in electrical engineering. Like all faculty members, he is entitled to express his personal views, including on his personal web pages, as long as he does not represent such opinions as the views of the University. Butz has made clear that his opinions are his own and at no time has he discussed those views in class or made them part of his class curriculum. Therefore, we cannot take action based on the content of what Butz says regarding the Holocaust – however odious it may be – without undermining the vital principle of intellectual freedom that all academic institutions serve to protect. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:08 PM And Wesley S. I sure did make that statement. You are such a moron to show a fragment and not show it's context. It was from a Terry Schiavano thread, and was in response to the insensitivy of people who should experience the same pain like this poor woman's parents did, as they were left to watch their daughter die. You are full of hate and denial, Wesley S. You are full of crap, also. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:12 PM artbrooks, sorry I crossed threaded with you. I appreciate you finding that article also. The disclaimer at the end means really jackshit, though. Anyone is qualified to deny the holocaust happened and NU I hyold accountable for having someone with this mindset on their staff. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM Just as zionism is the best friend of nazism (nazism demanded the expulsion of Jews from Europe while zionism made it a reality) Martin is the best friend of Jew-haters everywhere: if you're determined to hate Jews, Martin makes it easy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:43 PM And that's as proven, just so easy for you to do AR282. Another hash mark for one of Mudcat's biggest anti-semites and Jew haters, Guest AR282. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM That reminds me, Is a Jew hater someone who hates Jews or a Jew full of hate? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:02 PM It's you, GuestAR282. tie a string around your finger so you won't forget. I love plenty of things and have a passion for a lot more. Morons like yourself are not on that list. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bobert Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:10 PM Hey, AR, this thread ain't got one thing to with anything except Martin's need for attention... I said it 300 posts ago yet seems a lot of good people signed up for the MG circle jerk... Nevermind, I'll go back to ignoring this thread until it hits 600, 'er 6000... Hate sho nuff draws a lot of attention... Even if it is Martin's hate... which happens to be his strongest suit... Later... (No, make that much later...) Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:15 PM It's not my hate, bobert. You can deny the anti-semitic hate found by some here, but this thread sure has proven it exists. Because it does. I just wanted to make those that deny it exists here like yourself, see for themselves. Question is, are the ones who deny it exists just as guilty? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:23 PM >>It's you, GuestAR282. tie a string around your finger so you won't forget.<< Marty, you're not a Jew. For someone who loudly proclaims himself a Jew, you have yet to diplay an ounce of knowledge about this religion, its customs or its associated languages. I hope you don't think you're actually fooling anybody. You're just a pathetic conservative doofus who needs attention and then needs to insult those who give you that attention because you think it makes you look less pathetically attention-starved. You need response but you're afriad you won't get it if you're nice. So you're a sour, nasty little prick because this generally gets you what you so crave: a little attention. But then you have to defend your actions and you can't so you crouch behind "I'm a poor little Jew, you can't attack me--that's antisemitic." That's why I prod you, Marty, I think you're funny. I poke, Marty reacts. >>I love plenty of things and have a passion for a lot more. Morons like yourself are not on that list.<< That's real nice, Marty, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything. Ya runnin outta words, boy?? That's highly unusual for a motor-mouth like you. As Thomas Pynchon once said, "You can spot a mouth like that a mile off." You need to come up with your usual insult-laced diatraibes or I'm gonna git bored with you and quit poking. And we all know you wouldn't like that one bit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wesley S Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM Oh my God – Martin Gibson isn't really bad – he's just TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT !!!! So I'm sure everyone will want to go back and re-read the entire thread so that when they get to the part about us watching our children die in front of our eyes we can relive the warm fuzzy feeling that Martin intended !! And I should just whack my pee-pee with a hairbrush for thinking that Martin meant anything negative by his comment. That puts all of his posts in a brand new light. I'm SO glad we got that cleared up. I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:53 PM What a very appropriate name Arthur Butz has. Especially when the first name is pronounced the way it is in this part of the world, as "Arfa". Half-arsed. I don't think any one is denying that anti-semitism exists in the world. Just that the alleged instances of it on the part of Mudcat regulars aren't actually anto-semitic at all. (At least no one's come up with any plausible examples so far.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM Well, there WAS one genuinely anti-semitic post but it got deleted. The rest is -- as far as I have been able to tell -- sweeping generalities with no referent. I asked for specifics, but someone must have misinterpreted my question, because all that came in reply was a juvenile insult of some boring sort or other. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:34 PM No, the regulars are not openly anti-semitic like neonazis or other cranks would be and some (not so welcome) GUESTs are. But if I read a sentence like All of the people who represent me in my government have been bought and paid for by the "Israel first" lobby. in Mudcat I start seeing a shade of grey in the continuum from white to black. Jews bribe and pay to control the world was a topos (used by very honourable people with the best of intentions) in the Germany of the 20s and early 30s of last century. I have read other and worse sentences of a similar type and always shake my head in disbelief that no other Mudcatter from the left part of the political spectrum seems to notice what I see. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:17 PM I note you say "and worse", Wolfgang. I think it wouidl need to be worse to qualify. I'd read that quote you gave as referring to the kind of organised lobbying on behalf of Israel which would be likely to involve backing from a much wider range of people than (some) Jews, including, in the American context, the Christian religious right. Political lobbies do exist, and they do wield a lot of influence, which is what lobbying is about. There is a difference between referring to this kind of thing and paranoia about "Jewish conspiracies". For a parallel I do not think it would be fair to brand as being anti-Irish anyone who people refers to the existance of a lobby in America supporting Irish republicanism. Or to define any referance to lobbying on behalf of Palestinians as necessarily indicating a racist antipathy towards that people. I quite accept that this kind of quote can be used by people who in fact do have a racist or a sectarian agenda, and that it is important to stay on guard against that kind of "support". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:29 PM Wolfgang, you have to make several assumptions to arrive at that conclusion. First you have to assume that there are only Jews in the "Israel first" lobby. Second, you have to assume that all Jews in the US are represented by the "Israel first" lobby. And also, you have to assume that such a lobby doesn't exist. All three assumptions are incorrect. However, I have noticed that empirical evidence is not something you are particularly concerned about, and that assumptions will suffice for you, so I am not at all surprised by your post. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:05 PM Well said, Carol. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:24 PM I get worried when I see "antisemitic" trotted out every time someone criticizes Israel or the Jewish presence in the media. Both are legitimate criticisms. I don't like the culture of fear that surrounds these topics that villifies those who question it. Yes, it CAN signify a hate agenda but it is also a legitimate avenue of discussion. The refusal to discuss it on any level is what fuels the conspiracy rumors. We see the same thing with Bush when he trots out "un-American" every time he gets criticized. It's a dangerous trap to fall for. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:27 PM Let's criticize Mohammed instead. All's ya get then is death threats. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:32 PM How can we ever expect nations to agree when most of us outside of the nationalites or countries in question can not agree. Sadly it's unlikely that peace will ever come to the Middle East, these nations are wed to fighting. So sad when people who visit this site and attempt to always take the moral high ground on every subject makes such general comments about these nations as he did in another thread. Not all of these people plant bombs. Shame on you Teddy, Shame on you. Subject: RE: BS: Abu Hamza Guilty From: flamenco ted Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:53 AM Yes Alan, I do have a tendency to dislike people who blow us. Their Nationality though is ireelevant. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:36 PM Your point being... (?) We all know that Muslim fundamentalism is a dangerous thing. Being against it, if you're a Canadian or an American or a western European, is like saying you think that Hitler was an evil man and the Nazis were dangerous to the world. Yeah, okay...we all agree on that. Now what? No one in the West is afraid to criticize Muslim extremism. People in the West, however, ARE afraid to openly criticize Israeli policy, because they expect to be singled out as "Anti-Semitic". It's a catch-all demonization term, used to muzzle legitimate criticism. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: artbrooks Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:41 PM Personally, I am a Zionist and a philo-semitic. And I generally think that Israel's current policy concerning land grabs in the West Bank sucks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Ebbie Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:13 PM "You surely cannot punish my success Just because my way of life has been so blessed You know the reason you don't have any food or any shoes Is 'cause Jesus loves me more than he loves you." Buddy Tabor, Juneau, Alaska Incidentally, mg, is it still the Reform(ed) sect that you belong to? As you have said several times. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:16 PM There are no "sects" in Judiasm. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Peace Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:19 PM And part of the problem there, Art, is that if a gang of Arab countries had NOT tried to over-run Israel in both 1967 and 1972, there would not have been prescedent for the land grabs that have taken place. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:26 PM Tell me it ain't so!!! Marty didn't actually say "Reformed" did he?? Gee, even I know it's "Reform," Marty. No Jew would ever say the former--never. You is busted, son! >>There are no "sects" in Judiasm.<< Aw, not even cuddling? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM Peace, that land grab was planned well before the 1967 war. They were even planning it before the 1956 war. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:35 PM Busted for what, Arne? For being a Jew who is part of URJ? The URJ is by far the largest north American organization and they completely support Israel. So does th AIPAC. Who do you support Arne? What do you stand for? On this forum, you are basically transparent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Alba Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM Legit Question for Martin. Can I ask why you seem to be so outspoken in your opposition against gays and lesbians at times on the Mudcat Martin. I ask only because as you know Reform Jews are committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue and in society at large. Thanks Jude |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:26 PM Yes, that is true to some extent, but not all. Not all support that and the Torah basically forbids it. Gay marriage is not recognized, nor should it be. Reform Jews come in different flavors. Some lean more conservative, others not. The structure is just not that rigid. I appreciate you asking. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Alba Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:43 PM Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. Jude |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:45 PM Hey Jude. don't be afraid................. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: robomatic Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:38 AM This is turning into the usual Mudcat free-for-all, but I will say when I see the typical fear mongering of the effects of Jews in media being trotted out, I think there is some appeal to tired and common anti-semitic kneejerk responses precisely because that association has been made time and time again without any kind of logical thread to support it. There is enough Martin-baiting going on to muddy the waters with CarolC bringing in her anti-Israel jibes out of context and so we are returning to unfortunately familiar territory. Think I'll draw me some cartoons... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:27 AM with CarolC bringing in her anti-Israel jibes out of context LOL Not only is this a blatant ad hominem attack (with no basis in fact), but it's not even a very good one. I can only imagine how lame your cartoons must be. On second though, I think I'd rather not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:00 AM Some might see CaroLC's attacks on Israel as vicious and supportive of terrorists. They are very much in context. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: robomatic Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:08 AM (LOL)? you don't sound like you mean it? One ad hominem deserves another! I think your post of 08 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM was a case of a "latent ad hominem attack" as it is a constant topic of yours even if not of the thread you are in. There have been several provocateurs here, MG for one, starting relatively sane, then a few eggers, of whom GUEST AR282 was prime example, got him on his 'dooty dooty' cycle. This is not a challenge anymore, just a tired and somewhat sad display. But the interesting thing is it doesn't disprove Martin's main point. Sharks have remoras, communists and fascists have fellow travelers, why not anti-semites? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Raptor Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM Here's a question: Why do you look for the ugliness in the world? One could find hate anywhere.But why look for it, point it out, and validate it? More ugliness was brought out by this thread than I've seen anywhere else on the CAT. Martin you've said yourself that you won't be able to change people's minds so why draw attention to the hate and let it grow? I also read the thread that got delieted but I didn't understand what it meant. Could someone PM me to explain it? ALL Questions asked with all due respect. Raptor |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Soma Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:56 AM Today is a beautiful day Snowdrops tassel the tree roots Crocuses golden the lawns Alder catkins in the long shadowed Sun Sing a new years becoming I smile I sigh I'll dance till I die |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM robomatic, your accusaton completely ignores the post that my post was in response to. A bit typical of you, I would say. as it is a constant topic of yours And in almost every case, it is in response to, and for the purpose of correcting, misinformation being spread around by others. But I notice you don't have a problem with the people I am responding to making posts about it. So I was not the one who "brought" that subject into the discussion. I was correcting the factual error of the one who did bring it into the discussion. I notice you didn't attack the person who brought the subject up and to whom I was responding. You ignored that post and only attacked me, because you agree with him and disagree with me. That makes you a hypocrite. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:32 PM >>There have been several provocateurs here, MG for one, starting relatively sane, then a few eggers, of whom GUEST AR282 was prime example, got him on his 'dooty dooty' cycle.<< How would you know since half the posts here under my moniker were not written or posted by me? Oh, because YOU are the one doing it, isn't that so, Marty? Of course, you ARE Marty. And neither of you are Jews. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:37 PM Out of fairness, I need to correct something in my last post. After looking again at the posts, I can see that the person I was responding to was not the one who brought the subject into the thread. It was brought by someone before him. However, I still am not the one who brought it up, and yet I was the only one who was attacked for it. As usual. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:42 PM Is it just me or did Old Guy mysteriously vanish? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:44 PM He went up in a puff of smoke. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: bobad Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:01 PM Well, he wasn't getting any younger. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Amos Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM ...unlike the rest of us who are???? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: John P Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:34 PM Geez, I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I've dipped into it here and there. Why in the world would anyone give the time of day to someone who is so idiotic as to say that disapproval of the political stance of the Israeli government is automatically anti-Semitic? Give me a break! Martin, what about all those Jews in Israel who disagree with the way their govenment acts? Are they all anti-Semitic? Are you willing to say that to their faces? You insult me and lots of other perfectly good people when you say we are anti-Semitic because we think the Israeli government is behaving badly. I am not anti-Semitic. I don't agree with many actions of the Israeli government. If you think those two stances are incompatible, you are guilty of some seriously flawed logic. Please stop shovelling this crap. Oops, here I am giving the time of day to a fool. Maybe I'm the idiot. John Peekstok |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Bill D Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:26 PM MINE! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Once Famous Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:40 PM OK, keep it. It's yours. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:15 PM That cartoon about the damselflies is the best cartoon I've seen yet on the subject. I like the red-winged blackbird's take on things too. (They actually DO think like that. I've had red-winged blackbirds as neighbours, and they are insanely territorial, paraniod, and greedy.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:50 PM As I've said, it probably ought to be enough for me to say that I disagree profoundly with the no-name person we call MG who might as well be a GUEST. I've laid it all out here several times--while he reacted predictably--telling me what I could stick into various orifices. My disappointment with the Israeli government, which he equates with Hitler, went back to the ill advised incursion into Lebanon some several long years ago--and it has nothing to do with antisemitism of any kind. It was disillusioning, at best, to watch as that government did unto others that which had been done unto them for too long.---- I suspect I was younger then, and relatively naive to political real-time ways of this world. Here and now, as I watch the feet of nations and people I'd once put on pedestals turn ceramic in front of me, I feel incredibly helpless to affect any of the machinations going down around me--except to say a few disillusioned words in a thread or two. Good night------- and good luck! Art Thieme |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:00 AM But we're glad you're here, Art, saying your words. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: robomatic Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:40 PM Carol: Your habit is to pose as a responder, often instigated by a GUEST of one sort or another. I give you credit enough to be aware of what you actually write as in a sophisticated controller if not a poser, and you constantly cite the same slanted web sources, therefore I correctly picked on you and not your inciter, as you can find incitement enough off a period of one of MG's rants to run to blue-clicky-land faster than the speed of suck. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM AIPAC? Another viewpoint. HERE |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:35 PM I just can't get over all the goodwill, good humour, and downright warm and huggy feelings on this forum every day. It's a real treat being here. ;-) Sort of a lesson in healthy human relations, eh? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: number 6 Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:37 PM L.H. ... if you don't have any constructive points to be said regarding this thread ... then just stay the hell out of it ... o.k. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:45 PM That's bullshit, robomatic. We have been handed a big old steaming load of horse shit with regards to the history of the Middle East. And every time I see someone repeating these lies, I will correct them. Because, as far as I can see, it's not until people stop believing those lies that there will be anything resembling peace in the Middle East, and by extention, for the US as well. The instigators are the ones who spread those lies as justification for their acts of agression. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:05 PM I don't care who you are - if I see a combative message from you, I'll delete it. I don't care who said what first. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:12 PM Joe, the whole premise of this thread is combative.
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:13 PM I think it's true that we think like insects and vice-versa. We might consider ourselves for more complex but I think our motivations and passions are insectoid at the core. All our love and morality and intellect are just outgrowths of this core. Who would deny that insects aren't the most amazingly ingenious little bastards? I was watching this nature show and I saw this segment of some kind of fly or something where the male goes out and gathers sweetgum and rolls it into a ball. Then he carries it while he flies around. When he spots a female, he lands and deposits his treat before her. If she starts eating it, it means she accepts him and he mounts her as she munches and impregnates her. Now that might be just a tad stripped-down from human interaction but it is the same scenario as a man presenting chocolates to a woman. We may not be moutning her while she devours them, but that's pretty much the aim of the entire ritual--it's culmination if you will. We're just insects and reptiles underneath it all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:39 PM And by the way, robomatic, I post information (with which you disagree). Your response is personal attacks and snide insinuations. That's because you are trying to defend the indefensible, and personal attacks and snide insinuations are all you've got to work with. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:58 PM I give you credit enough to be aware of what you actually write as in a sophisticated controller if not a poser... What does that mean, robomatic? I'm just curious, not being sarky. Are there some typos in there, or is it a case of some arcane terminology that I've not come across before? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:11 PM Considering this, McGrath... Your habit is to pose as a responder, often instigated by a GUEST of one sort or another. Along with the quote you posted, it looks to me like he's insinuating that I have been orchestrating my debates by posting as a GUEST and then responding to myself. I guess he thinks that in the absense of having truth on his side, he can always try to slime me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM We are all responders by nature. That's why these threads go on and on over the same old tired ground and never reach a resolution...just like the Arab-Israeli conflict. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM Well, you know, CarolC is correct - the entire premise of this thread is combative. Anti-semitism could be a worthwhile topic of discussion, but this thread has consisted of name-calling, and the continued adventures of Martin Gibson battling the world. This Forum is open for discussion, not combat. Martin Gibson, this is your last anti-semitism thread. You started several others on the same subject, and they all turned into combat zones. There is very little anti-semitism here at Mudcat. If you wonder why people attack you, it's because you attack them first, call people names, and generally insult everybody here. -Joe Offer- |
