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Country or Country & Western

GUEST,woodsie 30 Jan 06 - 07:20 PM
GUEST 30 Jan 06 - 07:20 PM
GUEST 30 Jan 06 - 07:22 PM
Kaleea 30 Jan 06 - 07:31 PM
Peace 30 Jan 06 - 07:37 PM
Dave Hanson 31 Jan 06 - 09:25 AM
pdq 31 Jan 06 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,dax 31 Jan 06 - 09:27 AM
Beer 31 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM
Arkie 31 Jan 06 - 12:17 PM
leftydee 31 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM
Leadfingers 31 Jan 06 - 12:47 PM
Lin in Kansas 01 Feb 06 - 05:20 AM
sian, west wales 01 Feb 06 - 07:05 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 06 - 07:33 AM
JohnInKansas 01 Feb 06 - 07:44 AM
Sandra in Sydney 01 Feb 06 - 08:22 AM
Grab 01 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM
Peace 01 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM
Once Famous 01 Feb 06 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,dax 01 Feb 06 - 09:26 PM
Once Famous 01 Feb 06 - 10:43 PM
number 6 01 Feb 06 - 11:21 PM
Sandra in Sydney 02 Feb 06 - 07:32 AM
Once Famous 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 02 Feb 06 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Passing Through 03 Feb 06 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,weener 03 Feb 06 - 06:27 AM
s&r 03 Feb 06 - 10:27 AM
Arkie 03 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM
Arkie 03 Feb 06 - 11:31 AM
Arkie 03 Feb 06 - 11:32 AM
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Subject: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:20 PM

My mate goes crazy when people say Country & Western. "there's no such thing, its country music" he says. Which is correct Country or C & W?


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Subject: RE: Country or Country & Western
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:20 PM


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:22 PM

sorry thread should say COUNTRY not county


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:31 PM

It just depends on how one classifies genres or styles of Music. Some people refer to any orchestral performance as "Classical," yet it very well could have been all Baroque.
Some people say "Country," yet what they are refering to has the emphasis on the backbeat(heavy beat on 2 & 4 instead of 1 & 3)-which at one point was the line drawn in the sand.
Then there was Western Music, which was sung & played by Cowboys in the "Westerns" from Hollywood--as opposed to Western Music which means not Asian!
   No doubt the "answer" from each "Catter will be different!


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 07:37 PM

County or Country & Western

I agree. It should be one or the other. Besides, Country & Eastern doesn't have that ring to it.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:25 AM

More like cuntry and western.

eric


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:27 AM

What most people regard as Western was phased-out of Country Music at least 40 years ago. Performers like Merle Haggard, Wynn Stewart and Buck Owens may have been the product of California, the most Western of all states, but they pioneered a 'hard' sound based around electric guitars. The subject matter was 'relationships' and 'honky tonks' just as with today's Country Music.

Chet Atkins, whom I greatly respect as a person, was the most important force behind the conversion of Country & Western, an assortment of 'people's music' variants, into what it is today: a carefully-crafted and quality-controlled form of Popular Music aimed almost exclusively at White rural people and White Southerners.

Western, in it's own right, has enjoyed a comeback in the last twenty years. Mostly a 'cult item' since Western performers like Ian Tyson seldom get played on commercial Country stations. While in California a few years back, I stopped into the biggest record store in the San Francisco Bay Area thinking that it would have a monster choice of Western CDs. There was nothing by Ian Tyson. I looked up the manager and she (a lady over 40) had never heard of Tyson and would not even order a CD of his had I wanted her to.

Some other names in the Western Revival are Michael Martin Murphey, "Red" Steagall, Don Edwards The Sons of the San Joaquin.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:27 AM

Call it what you will.
   To me most earlier than 1980 was good. Most after that crap.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Beer
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM

Agree, Dax.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Arkie
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:17 PM

Country music has gone through a number of phases, one of which was Country & Western as promoters and writers tried to define or redefine and even "modernize" the industry.   During the Country & Western phase many country performers who did not really do any cowboy music dressed in fancy western costumes. There were also "cowboy" performers such as Sons of the Pioneers and Gene Autry appearing along side the mountain and country folk. There have also been "Countrypolitan" (which may have been a Chet Atkins' influenced era) and now "Modern Country" for what that's worth.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: leftydee
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM

ME too, Dax


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:47 PM

You mean the Blues Brothers were foretelling the future ?

       " We play BOTH kinds - Country AND Western "


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:20 AM

Huh. That's weird, pdq. I never thought of "Western" music as named for California. Nor are Merle Haggard, or Buck Owens, who I would think of as "Western" singers. Here in Kansas, "Heartland" of the U.S., both Merle and Buck would be called "old country," as would Hank Williams, Sr., Frankie Laine, Lacy J. Dalton, Dolly Parton, Ferlin Husky, et al.

Western usually refers to groups like Sons of the Pioneers, Sons of the San Joaquin, Roy Rogers and band (NOT the blues singer, of course) and Gene Autry's songs. "Western" is starting to make a comeback around here on the local radio stations, mostly due to the Prairie Rose Ramblers, a fine local band.

As for "modern country," I don't listen to it. Define it as you will, folks.

Lin


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:05 AM

If you like an academic discussion, read Singing Cowboys and Musical Mountaineers. I think I may have seen it originally on the Mudcat Library permathread; bought it and learned a lot.

siân


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:33 AM

The Brits have this thing about Country and Western. They have a weekend festival in Welshpool where they camp out and dress cowboy and have quick draw competitions etc. It's pathetic really and the bands are very second rate, but acceptable apparantly as long as they do "Crystal chandeliers"


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:44 AM

In the early 1940s, when I first began to be aware that there were "different" kinds of music, the stuff about relationships and drinkin' and chasin' women was called "hillbilly," and stuff about ridin' horses, chasin' cows, and sunsets, and lonesome was called "cowboy."

In the earliest phases, "hillbilly" bands mostly wore business suits, and of course "cowboy" bands mostly wore cowboy costumes.

As both kinds evolved, many of the "hillbilly" bands migrated to cowboy style costumes, and began to mix in what was popular in the movies - cowboy kinds of songs. In the earliest times, when the only time you heard a band was when they came to town, you could dance to hillbilly music (it was made for jukeboxes); but you mostly just listened to cowboy stuff (made for movies), unless they included some square dancing.

"Hillbilly lonesome" was a popular theme, and meant you were drunk in a bar and needed a woman. (A lament about a bad thing?)

"Cowboy lonesome" meant you were free out on the prairie, and were glad there weren't a lot of people messin' with you. (A brag about a good thing?)

When TV came along the "hillbillies" sort of split two ways. Some affected "hick" costumes and some went "full-bore cowboy." Both kinds were featured, more or less separately, on the Grand Ol' Opry, and other early shows.

Numerous names for "styles" of music were created, sometimes by performers who wanted to appeal to a specific audience - and distance themselves from other similar (but lesser?) performers - but mostly by promoters who wanted to "target" groups of performers to an exploitable audience. The "country" tag was largely created so the "formerly hillbilly" performers who had a sequined shirt and a felt hat could distance/distinguish themselves from the "formerly hillbilly" performers who went the bibbies and straw hats. "Western" and in some cases "western swing," etc. were also used.

While the various "genre" names may have had some real meaning to those who invented them, to the public the names meant only which of the three bins the records would be in at the local music shop.

That's probably still the only real reason to debate what category a performer fits in with, although now there are quite a few more bins. It's all marketing, for the most part. There are differences of style that are worth recognizing, but names for them have been used broadly and interchangeably and hence ambiguously - and are not very reliable.

John


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:22 AM

I was told by a friend who has spent decades in the record/CD selling business that the Top 40 Country list was combined with the Top 40 Western list as the music types were similar & the magazine which published these lists needed to save spsce. Or something like that.

The only definite thing I remember is 2 Top 40 lists were combined!

sandra (famous for her bad memory)


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Grab
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM

The Yanks have this thing about history. They have these festivals called Renfaires where they camp out and dress mediaeval and have swordfights etc. It's...

Well it's not pathetic actually, it's all a good laugh and an excuse for a damn good booze-up. Americans have Errol Flynn and castles as their "culturally different" icons; Brits have John Wayne and the Wild West.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM

In Canada we watch shows about places with warmth and green foliage and gasp in wonder that such Edens exist.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:16 PM

Actually, many early country performers were catoragized as "folk" or "country and folk" Somewhere along the line, "folk" distanced itself from country and they went on two parellel but different paths.

A good example of a country and folk performer was Bradley Kincaid.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:26 PM

Very true MG. Such could be said of Woody and the Carter Family as well.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:43 PM

It's nice to see this type of thread. I have listened to and collected country music for 40 years. Because of much of today's country pop/rock it gets a bad rap from folkies. I would still rather listen to Gretchen Wilson sing a hard core ballad than someone with a lute braying.

The Country Music Foundation in Nashville has been doing a lot in the education of this great form of American music. Too many folkies have lost track of the fact this country music is still the voice of many people in this country. Much of it still comes from the heart with meaning.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:21 PM

"Too many folkies have lost track of the fact this country music is still the voice of many people in this country. Much of it still comes from the heart with meaning."

So true MG ... so true.

Right on!

sIx


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:32 AM

I was at a Festival some years back & attended an Early Australian Country concert only because friends were playing & I discovered that the other performers who had been playing for decades & won various Country Music awards were playing my kind of music.

That's when I realised that I didn't dislike Country music, just some versions of it.

I also dislike some versions of folk music.

sandra


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:57 AM

Yes, so do I. I especially do not like political folk music.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM

I have a moderately large collection of LPs and CDs which I refer to as Cowboy Music; it is my arbitrary distinction apart from Country or Country Western. Now my Cowboy Music includes work songs, ie When the Works All Done This Fall or the Strawberry Roan; it includes campfire type songs from the B-western movies; it also includes tragic ballads like The Streets of Laredo. Further it is songs about rodeos, gunfighters and outlaws, and the great western landscape.

My favorites include the Sons of the Pioneers, Tex Ritter, and Marty Robbins. Of the current crop, I am partial to Don Edwards, Dave Stamey, Michael Martin Murphey and, of course, Ian Tyson...the exemplar of this music.

I listen seldom to what is called C/W, or country after about 1960 with a few exceptions.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:30 PM

i just bought Sheb Wooley CD

"Rawhide / How the west was won"

I've enjoyed cowboy music ever since i was a toddler
and was given Roy Rogers & Dale Evans

"A cowboy needs a horse" red plastic mini 78rpm for xmas..


these days i like US bands like Cowboy Nation

and the Bloodshot Records bunch of punk alt.country/cowboy recording artists..
[UK's Jon Langford from legendary Leeds punk agitgit-pop band The Mekons
heavily involved with bloodshot recordings]



as well as the old time country influenced Gothic Americana bands like Handsome family/ Blanche /
Slim Cessna / Denver Gentlemen / 16 Horsepower etc..


..from my middle aged Brit punk / indie / folk-rock perspective..
this is my favourite kind of music being made at the moment..


..trad [pre 80's] country music is probably something people dont realise they understand and enjoy
until they've grown up and experienced the best and worst
that life can deal out..

so much to discover and so little time left..

{now got a 7 cd Yazoo lable Kentucky mountain music boxset to find time to listen to]

I stopped pretending to hate "Country and Western"
when i was in my 30's and mature enough
to openly admit in public that i could no longer make any meaninful qualitative / prejudiced distinction
between the best of classic rock'n'roll, rockabilly, and country..

Patsy Cline rocks !!!

most likely very obvious to americans who lived and breathed this music..
but a problematic critical minefield for us Brits
who grew up in the 70s and 80s with extremely separatist tribal music youth sub-cultures..
and were brainwashed with a very one dimensional perspective
of country and western


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,Passing Through
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 05:05 AM

Nice thread.

"New Country" and "Young Country" are terms for pop music done in "hickface". So is a lot of the b.s. designation "Alt-country", only with a punk or indie conceit behind it. It's just as commercial; it's simply in reaction to overt commerciality, a more elaborate, childish posture toward country music.

But there is still real country music being made.

It's like what's going on in the realm of Bluegrass. There's a lot of contempo fluff out there, the jam bands, the jazzed-up hybrid stuff, and the breathy, mic-dependent, pitch-corrected, overproduced pop (are you reading, Allison?) that gets called Bluegrass - and then there are bands that are actually continuing the form, respectfully, not slavishly, without a lot of hype.

If you love the original forms, it's not hard to tell the poseurs from the real deal. A lot of what people hate about contemporary so-called "country" is the grotesque commercial pretense, the "hickface" that trivialzes and demeans the form that it cynically refers to.

Enough! or Too Much.

Thanks, Mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: GUEST,weener
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:27 AM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002HM0/sr=1-1/qid=1138965772/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0711835-2938425?%5Fencoding=UTF8

"12 Country Greats"


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: s&r
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:27 AM

Was it the Corries who said:

country & western songs must include one or more of six subjects: prison, the farm, mother, religion, trucks, and trains.

The greatest country song ever written is:

Since they took momma off to prison
Things down on the farm ain't been the same
We pray that God will let her out the jailhouse
Since she drove her goddamn truck into a train

Stu


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Subject: Lyr Add: YOU NEVER EVEN CALL ME BY MY NAME
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM

The Ultimate Country Song is claimed by Steve Goodman and David Allen Coe

- David Allen Coe Lyrics - You Never Even Called Me By My Name Lyrics

It was all that I could do to keep from cryin'
Sometimes it seems so useless to remain
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me by my name.

You don't have to call me Waylon Jennings
And you don't have to call me Charlie Pride.
You don't have to call me Merle Haggard, anymore.
Even though your on my fightin' side.

CHORUS
And I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standin' in the rain.
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me by my name.

I've heard my name a few times in your phone book
I've seen it on signs where I've laid
But the only time I know, I'll hear David Allan Coe
Is when Jesus has his final judgement day.

CHORUS...

Well, a friend of mine named Steve Goodman wrote that song
and he told me it was the perfect country and western song.
I wrote him back a letter and told him it was NOT the perfect
country and western song because he hadn't said anything about
Momma, or trains, or trucks, or prison, or gettin' drunk.

Well, he sat down and wrote another verse to the song and he sent
it to me and after reading it, I realized that my friend had written
the perfect country and western song. And I felt obliged to include it
on this album.

The last verse goes like this here:

Well, I was drunk the day my Mom got outta prison.
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But, before I could get to the station in my pickup truck
She got runned over by a damned old train.

CHORUS
So I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standin' in the rain. No,
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me, I wonder why you don't call me
Why don't you ever call me by my name.


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Subject: Lyr Add: YOU NEVER EVEN CALL ME BY MY NAME
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 11:31 AM

This is claimed by the writer or writers as the Ultimate Country Song.

Steve Goodman/David Allen Coe Lyrics - You Never Even Called Me By My Name Lyrics

It was all that I could do to keep from cryin'
Sometimes it seems so useless to remain
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me by my name.

You don't have to call me Waylon Jennings
And you don't have to call me Charlie Pride.
You don't have to call me Merle Haggard, anymore.
Even though your on my fightin' side.

CHORUS
And I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standin' in the rain.
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me by my name.

I've heard my name a few times in your phone book
I've seen it on signs where I've laid
But the only time I know, I'll hear David Allan Coe
Is when Jesus has his final judgement day.

CHORUS...

Well, a friend of mine named Steve Goodman wrote that song
and he told me it was the perfect country and western song.
I wrote him back a letter and told him it was NOT the perfect
country and western song because he hadn't said anything about
Momma, or trains, or trucks, or prison, or gettin' drunk.

Well, he sat down and wrote another verse to the song and he sent
it to me and after reading it, I realized that my friend had written
the perfect country and western song. And I felt obliged to include it
on this album.

The last verse goes like this here:

Well, I was drunk the day my Mom got outta prison.
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But, before I could get to the station in my pickup truck
She got runned over by a damned old train.

CHORUS
So I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standin' in the rain. No,
You don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even call me, I wonder why you don't call me
Why don't you ever call me by my name.


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Subject: RE: County or Country & Western
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 11:32 AM

Sorry for the double post.   I got distracted and when I checked if the post was there it wasn't.   When I sent again it was here twice.


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