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BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism

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Subject: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM

An important group and voice for Jews is The Organization known as FLAME, which is Facts and Logic About the Middle East. This organization runs articles in virtually all of the Jewish press. As some of clueless have mentioned on this forum, the ones who say they know Jews who do not support Israel, there is always going to be Jews who are loathsome of themselves and Israel just as there is a faction of them against American policies, also. To them, I just consider the source, for they are truly on the outside looking in at most of what they do in life and what they know of a given situation. The fact is, the number of Jews and Jewish organizations who support Israel against the ones who don't, is overwhelming.

FLAME's web site is: http://www.factsandlogic.org/

Here is a cut and paste article you can start with:


Who are the new anti-Semites?

The new anti-Semites do not publicly proclaim their desire to bring about a second Holocaust or to subject the Jews to mass murder or annihilation. The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel, which, according to the new anti-Semites, represents all that is evil in the world and which is the main violator of human rights and guilty of virtually every other abuse that can be conceived. This poison is now so widespread that a poll taken in Europe not too long ago found Israel to be the greatest menace to the peace of the world — far ahead of such murderous regimes as those of Iran or of North Korea.

The leaders and instigators of this new anti-Semitism are concentrated on the political left, its most active and vocal spokesmen being found in our prestige universities. Such is the anti-Zionist (anti-Semitic) focus of the left that, almost incomprehensibly, it includes a fair number of Jewish professors and other "intellectuals," not just here in the United States, but even in Israel itself.

Those on the extreme left call for the abolition of the State of Israel outright, although they do not tell us what they propose to do with the five million Israeli Jews. They would presumably be left to the tender mercies of the Arabs, who would, of course, have no greater joy than to emulate or perhaps even to "improve" on the Nazi model and to give "final solution(!) to the Jewish problem" once and for all. That isn't going to happen, of course, not because anybody in the world would lift a finger to prevent it, but because, fortunately, Israel is a very strong and most capable nation.

A death wish for Israel. In deference to "world opinion" and also to the wishes of the United States, Israel has allowed itself to be pressured into innumerable concessions to those who are sworn to destroy it. But it seems clear that, when the chips are really down, a most decisive response on the part of Israel can be expected. With the possible exception of Carthage during the Punic Wars, almost 2500 years ago, no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction. Israel is the one exception. Fueled by the extreme left, the "legitimacy" of Israel is a constant topic of discussion. The abolition of the "Zionist entity" gets serious attention, even in the hallowed halls of the United Nations. Iran feverishly pursues the Holy Grail of atomic weapons. Its president has publicly declared — not once, but repeatedly — that Israel is a "tumor" that must be excised and that it must be wiped off the map of the world. Medium-range missiles (so far, fortunately without atomic warheads) are being paraded through the streets of Teheran, with signs attached to them, shamelessly giving their destination as Jerusalem. A few eyebrows are being raised around the world, but otherwise nothing is being done about it.

Because the memory of the Nazi Holocaust still lingers after all these years, the new anti-Semitism is disguised as the socially more acceptable "anti-Zionism." It is pursued and propagated by the radical left. Every leftist demonstration — be it about the war in Iraq, against globalization, for or against whatever else — does inevitably include appeals against "Israeli subjugation of the Palestinians," the "occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel," or simply asks for the elimination of Israel. Sadly, quite a few Jews, having been saturated with leftism from their early years, participate in such demonstrations.

While the propagation of the new anti-Semitism by prestige universities started in Europe (mostly in England), it has found fertile ground in the universities of the United States. The active participation in the new anti-Semitism by the American clergy (beginning with the Presbyterians) is a scandalous reality.Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism. But the viciousness, volume and consistency of this criticism against Israel is such that it cannot be considered as anything but anti-Semitism — the new anti-Semitism, disguised as anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism. The foolish professors and the hypocritical preachers are besotted by their leftism and by their hatred against Israel and America. Overt vilification of America has to remain muted — it's somewhat dangerous to be too outspoken about it — but Israel, perceived as the satrap and the handmaiden of the United States in the Middle East, is an easy target. Nobody should be fooled. Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism in whichever way it may be disguised.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:18 PM

That's too long to read. It's more than one screen. Can you summrize ?
    Well, it fits my 30-inch screen (just barely), and that's the one we use to judge.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:20 PM

Why don't you take your pill for your attention-deficit disorder and then come back to it?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm sorry. I thought there were rules about cut and paste's that are larger than one screen.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:28 PM

Those rules do not ever seem to apply to Amos' posts/rants. And Guest, you can log in and say it. I will not bite you.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:43 PM

"With the possible exception of Carthage during the Punic Wars, almost 2500 years ago, no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction."

Actually, I think a number of countries have been threatened with extinction in recorded history...and have had it done to them too.

Not just Carthage by any means. Hitler basically wiped Poland off the map of Europe between 1939 and 1945, for instance. Had he won, Poland would be just a memory. There have been many small countries that were obliterated in wars. Some by the Romans, some by other conquering empires. The Spanish obliterated 2 advanced cultures in Central and South America, the Incas and the Aztecs. The Europeans wiped out several nations of Native Americans completely between 1500 and 1900. There are numerous nations of antiquity in both Europe and Asia which ceased utterly to exist after they were overrun and plundered by some larger entity.

So the position of Israel and the Jews is not as unique in this respect as some might think. But it sounds good to say it is, if you want to get people really worked up about it.

Read Hitler's rhetoric about the sufferings of Germany after WWI. A similar sense of outrage, of having been unfairly singled out for a uniquely horrible persecution as a nation, drove the Nazis into seeking military solutions in Europe where they were neither needed nor prudent. That caused them to become the pariah of Europe in the end.

The USA lifts far more than a finger to assist Israel in times of dire trouble. They airlifted so much equipment to them during the October War in '73 that it outdid the famed Berlin Airlift, and that is what allowed Israel to lauch a counteroffensive and reverse the fortunes of the Egyptian Army. Without the airlift, Israel would have lost that war in the Sinai...and the only question is, how far east would Sadat have sent his tanks? Israel is not nearly as alone in tough times as the article suggests.

Isn't it rather odd, in retrospect, that Hitler associated the Left WITH the Jews (while the author of the above article associates the Left with Anti-semitism)? He considered Communist Russia to be run BY the Jews! This would almost be funny if it weren't just totally sad...and if it had not had such horrific consequences in Germany and elsewhere.

It seems that the Left is the chosen boogeyman of both Nazis AND their most notable historical victims! The Left gets blamed for a lot.

People can believe anything. Just depends who they listen to.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM

"Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism." I'm glad that the author made that distinction. That's something that too many other people seem unable to grant.

I agree with mg. That article is not too long - keep in mind that Joe Offer now has a 30" screen and this certainly does not exceed that. And it is nicely broken into paragraphs for easy readability.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM

Personally, I don't know anyone in the class described by this article as desiring the eradication of Israel. I think it would be a catastrophe.

But I think it is important to notice when someone is using extreme rhetorical device and promoting hatred by attributing it to others.

Extremism in any camp is pretty ugly. So is paranoia.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM

I looked up paranoid in the dictionary and it said, "Why do you want to know?"


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

Ha! That's not what it said in MY dictionary. That message was clearly meant for YOU, Bruce! Listen up.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:14 AM

So which is it? Is Israel "a very strong and most capable nation", or is it being "threatened with extinction"?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:04 AM

"They would presumably be left to the tender mercies of the Arabs, who would, of course, have no greater joy than to emulate or perhaps even to "improve" on the Nazi model and to give "final solution(!) to the Jewish problem" once and for all."

The "Jewish problem" is only a problem in as much as there is an Israel in Palestine. Jews themselves, are not the problem. Their government and their policies toward Palestinians are the problem. I have never heard any mention of a Nazi model of problem solving.

As usual, this is a completely self serving article written by a very paranoid Jew who really needs to read some world history, not just the history of the Jews. The statement, "no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction," exemplifies the narrow perspective of the writer. As if the Jews were the only group of people who have ever suffered!

What about Armenia? What about Native America? What about Tibet? What about the Sudan or for that matter, Iraq?

So long as you and others continue to moan and complain that you are the only ones who have ever suffered, no one will be able to hear you. Perhaps you should be putting your energy into refusing to co-operate in the oppression of others. If Israel is so damn strong, why aren't they helping to prevent crimes against humanity?

I don't see too many Israeli soldiers on peace keeping missions.

Guess what - you may think that you are God's chosen people but nobody else believes that. You are no more special than any other group of people on Earth. Once you figure this out, we may be able to achieve world peace.

BTW, Martin - Take a clue from the article, "Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism."

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:17 AM

I just now stumbled across this perspective that I had not encountered previously. According to these Jews, Zionism is against Jews...

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html


"Zionism is Against Jews

For many of us the reason that we are adamantly opposed to Zionism is because yes its committing crimes against the Palestinian people, yes because its condemning Jews in Israel to a life of insecurity and danger, and yes because the Zionist movement ultimately said that Jewish life outside Palestine is not worth savings - the first president of the state of Israel Chaim Weisman referred to the Jews of Europe as human dust not worth saving.

For many of us the reason for our adamant opposition to Zionism is not only though it is as well seeing what it is doing to the Palestinians and seeing that there cannot be any solution, any just solution, any lasting solution in the middle-east that doesn't undo the wrong that has been done by the Zionist movement for Palestinians, but also because we say if there is again an up surge of hatred against Jews, the Zionists will not be the ones to protect us - they will be the ones to betray us. And for me certainly its an absolute fundamental for my whole political existence that Zionism is not just something I am opposed to - it is my enemy. This is part of the reason why we are taking steps to establish an organisation Jews Against Zionism"


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:34 AM

Is Abramoff a Zionist?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 04:00 AM

As I pointed out elsewhere, and mg didn't respond, if you can have a Jewish state, why not an Islamic one (yes I know they exist- but should they?)? A Christian one? an Aryan one? A White one, separate from a parallel Black one?

Racism is racism, irrespective of whom it is against, or favours.

The only way forward in that corner of the middle East is to acknowledge that 2000 years of generally- Semitic pagan culture was followed by 2000 years of developing Jewish culture, followed by 600 years of Roman and Byzantine culture, followed by 1300 years of Moslem culture... with people from most of the previous phases remaining in each subsequent phase. In other words, a pluralistic society in which all acknowledge that all the others have equal rights there.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:15 AM

Very succinctly put Paul and right on the money.
The organisations acronym says it all: clearly they don't do irony.

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:46 AM

I agree Mr Gibbon, as an englishman I will not stop until your creed is wiped off the face of the planet, now where did I put my marmalade


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:53 AM

Paul,

you are the only one who has mentioned a 'Jewish state' in here.
With your argumentation in the last paragraph one could as well argue that all of middle Europe should be one single state or that the Western part of Poland and Germany should be united. Your implication is a recipe for disaster. Any people living together in a coherent patch of land should have the right to decide to live in a country of their own.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:07 AM

So you're saying Israel isn't a Jewish state? Or that Germany shouldn't be pluralist? I didn't say anything about state boundaries; they are necessary constructs for administrative convenience. And as for "Any people living together in a coherent patch of land should have the right to decide to live in a country of their own", don't talk tripe. As Woodrow Wison is supposed to have said sadly, "I didn't realise there were so many small nations".

No one has a "right" to live in a country "of their own". They have the right to live wherever they live. And they have the right not to be evicted to make space for someone else's project.

I'm assuming your rather odd formulation (living together/ coherent patch of land) wasn't a deliberate attempt to leave out the Roma.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM

Just some info here ... I have cut and pasted it, but what the hell...

Israeli Arabs, also referred to as Arab-Israelis, Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel, are Arabs who are citizens of Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process. Apart from the Druze (who are Arabs but form a distinct minority group) most Israeli Arabs are descendants of the roughly 150,000 Palestinians who remained within Israel borders during and after the Palestinian Exodus which resulted from the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, as many as 200,000 have emigrated into Israel from the Gaza Strip and West Bank [1]. Many Israeli Arabs share family and other ties with the Palestinians in these areas and in other Arab countries.

Israel also has a large population of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries, mostly after 1948, or who are the descendants of those refugees. They are Israeli but are usually not identified as Arabs (although many of them are traditionally Arabic-speaking and hold on to Arab culture, tradition, cuisine,...).

Arabic, which is mostly spoken by the Arab minority, is one of Israel's official languages. In 2004, Israeli Arab citizens made up about 19.5% of Israel's population [2]. It is estimated that an additional 170,000 Palestinians live illegally in Israel [3] amongst the Israeli Arab population. Israeli Arabs sometimes consider themselves Palestinian, sometimes Israeli, and sometimes both. The majority of Israeli Arabs are Muslim and a minority are Christian. There are two additional distinct subgroups: followers of the Druze religion (about 120,000), and the Bedouin (170,000), who are predominantly Muslim [4].

Most Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem (about 250,000) are not Israeli citizens, but hold legal permanent resident status to live and travel within Israel. According to 1988 Israeli Supreme court ruling, this status also makes them eligible for Israel Social Security benefits and state-provided health care [5].

Well-known Israeli Arabs include the politician and novelist Emile Habibi, film directors Elie Suleiman and Hany Abu-Assad, and the politician Azmi Bishara. There are ten Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 16th Knesset (there are a total of 120 seats), and there is currently an Arab judge (Justice Salim Jubran) sitting in the Israeli Supreme Court. The 1999 Miss Israel, Rana Raslan, was also an Israeli Arab. Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included as a minister an Israeli Arab, Salah Tarif, and in March of 2005 Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior.

Organisations representing Israeli Arabs allege that the population faces discrimination in a number of respects, arising from legislation and government policy. However, since the mid 1990s the government has adopted affirmative action policies in recruiting Israeli Arabs to the civil service.

Apart from the Druze, Israeli Arabs are not required to serve in the Israel Defense Forces, although some, notably among the Bedouin, volunteer to serve.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

As some of clueless have mentioned on this forum, the ones who say they know Jews who do not support Israel, there is always going to be Jews who are loathsome of themselves and Israel just as there is a faction of them against American policies, also.

You misspelled "observant", 'Martin'. I'd say that it is your unsubstantiated opinion that those that do not "support Israel" (or actualy, more accurately, don't support at least some of the Israeli gummint's policies) are "self-loathing". As for Americans [more accurately, those in the U.S.] that are "against American policies", don't look now, 'Martin', but that seems to be a majority of the U.S. public.....

Keep whistlin', 'Martin'.

The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel, which, according to the new anti-Semites, represents all that is evil in the world....

Ummm, no, actually, this is according to you, 'Martin'. You're a liar when you say it's according to them.

Paul [peplying to Wolfgang]:

So you're saying Israel isn't a Jewish state?

Dunno what Wolfgang thinks, but 'Martin Gibson' made such a claim pretty much a centrepiece of his other "anti-Semitism" thread, with much ado about the Star if David on the flag and all. I will posit that Israel is not strictly speaking a "Jewish state", but it would be stretching reality far beyond the truth to overlook the religious aspect of the foundation of Israel and the pervasive influence, nay dominance, of the religious in Israeli gummint, notwithstanding they do have Arabs and/or Muslims in gummint even within Isreal proper.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:36 PM

Do all Arabs, as well as all Jews, have right of Israeli citizenship then? Do even all Palestinians, descendants of those who were refugees from the pre- 1967 Israel, have citizenship rights?

If not, why are individuals of one group (who may have no historical connection with the physical territory of Israel in the last 1500 years) given automatic rights, when others, who clearly have such a connection, denied them?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:52 PM

Non-Jewish Israelis do not have equal protection under the law. There are people there who are trying to change this state of affairs, but as things stand right now, there is no equal protection under the law for Jews and non-Jews in Israel.

One example of this is the law that prevents Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. Another is the law that prevents non-Jewish citizens who advocate positions that the Jewish Israelis don't like (for instance, ones who advocate allowing Palestinian refugees to return to what is now Israel), from serving in the Knesset. Laws governing property ownership are different for Jews and non-Jews also.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM

Do even all Palestinians, descendants of those who were refugees from the pre- 1967 Israel, have citizenship rights?

The Palestinians (within the occupied areas, as well as the Palestinian diaspora) do not have any rights to Israeli citizenship at this time.

Interestingly, according to this site, Israel does not recognize "Israeli" as a nationality...


"'The routine means for enforcing discrimination in everyday life is the ID card, which everyone is obliged to carry at all times. ID cards list the official 'nationality' of a person, which can be 'Jewish', 'Arab', 'Druze' and the like, with the significant exception of 'Israeli'. Attempts to force the Interior Minister to allow Israelis wishing to be officially described as 'Israeli', or even as 'Israeli-Jew' in their ID cards have failed. Those who have attempted to do so have a letter from the Ministry of the Interior stating that 'it was decided not to recognise an Israeli nationality'. The letter does not specify who made this decision or when.'

This was published over ten years ago and Shahak has been dead for about 4 years now but I am not aware of any change in the Israeli (or is it Jewish) position."

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2005/02/israel-doesnt-recognise-israel.html


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

And according to this, children of non-Jewish Israelis are not guaranteed Israeli citizenship...


"I've been sent this report from the Arab Human Rights Association in Israel (AHRA). Headed 3 year old lives in anonymity in Baqa al Gharbiyyah, the article sets out how it is that the child of an Israeli mother is barred from attaining Israeli citizenship:

    The Israeli Interior Ministry continues to repeatedly refuse Israeli citizenship to Qadar Ismail Mawasi, who three years ago was born in Nabulus when her mother from Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel was visiting her husband in the West Bank city.

    Qadar's name was also not imprinted on her mother's ID as is usually done for children of Israeli parents. This denial of identity stems from the fact that she was born at the Rafidia hospital in Nabulus. Qadar's brothers, Fahmi and Ahmad are both Israeli citizens.

    Qadar's mother, Izdihar Mawasi, says, "When I was in my last month of pregnancy (3 years ago) I was visiting my husband Ismail at his home in Nabulus; being from the West Bank, he is forbidden entrance into Israel. During that visit, I felt that I was about to deliver, so began my return to Baqa al Gharbiyyah. However, I was stopped at the checkpoint leading into Israel due to a security closure. This kept me in Nabulus, even though I told security staff that I was on the verge of delivery". Shortly after Qadar was born, Izdihar's husband suffered a heart attack and passed away; all this time her daughter had been living with her in Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel.

    Izdihar then attempted to have her daughter registered at the Interior Ministry in Israel given their current residence within the State and Izdihar's status as an Israeli citizen, but was refused. Again, the reason given was that Qadar was born in Nabulus. Izdihar has been going to the Interior Ministry on multiple occasions (with all the appropriate documentation) but has continually been denied identity papers for her daughter.

    Izdihar fears much for her daughter's future because it rests in uncertainty. The fact that three year old Qadar has no identity papers implies she is not registered by the government, and therefore registering her in school and ensuring access to health care is also put into question."

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

(Scroll down to "Right of return?")


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:01 PM

Guest, Arne

All you do is analyze and really seethe quite a bit of hate for Israel and Jews.

spin it any way you want, it's pretty obvious you are quite anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

Here's three more sentences for you to put into italics and hand wring on.

I posted this website to show you are one that FLAME has targeted, guest Arne. If I succedded in making one Mudcatter aware of that, then I am vindicated. The article is about you, guest Arne.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:16 PM

Martin Gibson is merely spouting the "party line."

"The latest production of Israel's apologists is the "New Anti-Semitism." ...Thirty years ago, Anti-Defamation League national leaders Arnold Forster and Benjamin Epstein published to great fanfare a study entitled The New Anti-Semitism, and less than a decade later ADL national leader Nathan Perlmutter (with his wife, Ruth Ann Perlmutter) put out The Real Anti-Semitism in America, alleging yet again that the United States was awash in a new Anti-Semitism. The main purpose behind these periodic, meticulously orchestrated media extravaganzas is not to fight anti-Semitism, but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism." (Norman Finkelstein, Beyond Chutzpah)

and

"The ADL has virtually abandoned its earlier role as a civil rights organization, becoming 'one of the main pillars' of Israeli propaganda in the U.S.… These efforts, buttressed by insinuations of anti-Semitism or direct accusations, are intended to deflect or undermine opposition to Israeli policies, including Israel's refusal, with U.S. support, to move towards a general political settlement." (Noam Chomsky, Necessary Illusions)

I didn't say it, Marty, so there's no point in attacking me. I'm just quoting two writers, both of whom are Jewish.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM

I had read an article a couple of years back of some Israeli company that imported Chinese workers and then passed a company policy forbidding them to date or marry Jewish women. Those who violated this law were to be immediately fired, charged for deportation costs and then deported.

While a lot of Jews were quick to point out that this was only that company's policy and not an official govt policy, it should not be held against Israel as a whole but only this company. I disagree, any govt that would allow such policy is automatically highly suspect.

Nor is such a policy becoming of a people who can't shut up about how intelligent and cosmopolitan they are. It is, in fact, a backward, racist policy that could only flourish in a backward, racist society.

It is one of the many reasons I dream of the complete destruction of Israel and those who support it. That's my zionist dream--the complete destruction of Zion and everything it stands for. If that makes me an "ntisemite" then I am a proud antisemite.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

Joe, can this thread be closed please?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:51 PM

Here's a really interesting account of someone who was accused of being a "self loathing Jew" by a guy named Nick Cohen (who claims to not be Jewish), using the pseudonym "Baruch Spinoza" (sneaky sneaky)...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2005/11/nick-cohen-playing-dissident-jewish.html

It does look like the enforcers of the party line are starting to get a bit desperate.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM

"It is one of the many reasons I dream of the complete destruction of Israel and those who support it."

What a wonderful person you must be.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM

Joe

Please do not close this thread!!

It is to important of a viewpoint! It is too real and too truthful!

It is also extremely informative and a position that is held by many.

Guest,AR282 is offended enough by it to show his true colors and his complete hate of a people because of one thing he cannot substantiate and probably made up. He should be banned for this kind of showing of hate. He does this forum no service and perhaps his hateful post should be pulled.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:05 PM

'Martin Gibson':

All you do is analyze ....

Sounds to be a bit more constructive than ranting and foaming, I'd venture.

... and really seethe quite a bit of hate for Israel and Jews. [S]pin it any way you want, it's pretty obvious you are quite anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

Huh??? You really need to talk to the docs about titrating the Haldol up a notch, 'Martin'. AFAIK, I have said very little on Mudcat (or even other places) about my opinions on Israel (although I will grant that I think that Israel's security policies are -- and have been -- rather misguided). I personally think a lot of people of all faiths would have been spared a lot of trouble (if not bloodshed) had the United States offered a 'homeland' for the European and other displaced or disaffected Jews; we could have given them half of New Mexico, and it might well have been better land than Palestine. But then again, it wouldn't have had Jerusalem, and there's those folks that are like the Nemo seagulls about Jerusalem ... "mine, mine, mine".... Having gotten the "choice piece of real estate" they wanted, the Israelis ought not to start carving out more and more of other people's slices, unless they're looking for trouble. But I don't think its worthwhile for me to add any more. But to call me an Israel hater is just wrong, and I demand an apology, 'Martin'.

What's worse is that you claim I have "hatred for ... Jews". That is simply unacceptable behaviour, 'Martin', as it is a vicious lie, and in fact is akin -- given the historical connotations of such a charge -- to the "blood libel" that real anti-Semites have perpetrated against the Jews for centuries. Back up your scurrilous accusation with some evidence, or I'm going to have to ask the proprietors to delete your nasty lie.

Here's three more sentences for you to put into italics and hand wring on.

I put stuff in italics so people can see more easily who said what.

I posted this website to show you are one that FLAME has targeted, guest Arne.

Oooooohhhhhh. So "FLAME" has targetted little ol' me, eh? You know, 'Martin', if they have done so (which I doubt), they're so stoopid that they're more likely a danger to themselves than to me. But tell 'em for me, wouldja, "Bring it on....", seeing as you seem to know them well enough to speak for them.... I'll be waiting right over here.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:14 PM

>>Guest,AR282 is offended enough by it to show his true colors<<

I've always proudly displayed my colors. I am a total anti-zionist. Always have been, always will be.

>>and his complete hate of a people because of one thing he cannot substantiate and probably made up.<<

That's interesting, Marty. Because if that story is true, what is your take on it? Should Chinese men living in Israel be allowed to date Jewish Israeli women? And if you say yes, then aren't you bucking this wonderful zionist society you erroneously tout as the heart and soul of the Jewish people? So, tell us, Marty, is this a justifiable policy or not?

>>He should be banned for this kind of showing of hate. He does this forum no service and perhaps his hateful post should be pulled.<<

Best be careful what you wish for, Marty-boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM

>>What a wonderful person you must be.<<

Why don't you go to Israel first then come back and talk to me.

You can tell the Israeli Jews from the Palestinians really easily. When an Israeli Jew passes a Palestinian on the sidewalk, he pulls his shirt up over his head so as not to the breathe the air polluted with the breath of a Palestinian. And please don't take my word for it. Go to Israel. You will never be the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Since Zionists are fond of using ancient documents to substantiate their insane claims, then I say the following ancient document sums them up today very, very well:

Erz 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, [doing] according to their abominations, [even] of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.


Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of [those] lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.


Ezr 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.


Ezr 9:4 Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.


Ezr 9:5 And at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God,


Ezr 9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over [our] head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.


Ezr 9:7 Since the days of our fathers [have] we [been] in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, [and] our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as [it is] this day.


Ezr 9:8 And now for a little space grace hath been [shewed] from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.


Ezr 9:9 For we [were] bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.


Ezr 9:10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments,


Ezr 9:11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.


Ezr 9:12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave [it] for an inheritance to your children for ever.


Ezr 9:13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities [deserve], and hast given us [such] deliverance as this;


Ezr 9:14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed [us], so that [there should be] no remnant nor escaping?


Ezr 9:15 O LORD God of Israel, thou [art] righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as [it is] this day: behold, we [are] before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:38 PM

Listen up O Presumptuous Poster: Who the hell said I haven't been to Israel? You in touch with an all-seeing eye?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM

FREE ISRAELI JEWS FROM THE ZIONISTS!


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:03 PM

BRING DEMOCRACY TO THE MIDDLE EAST.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

find your capslock button a push it


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:02 PM

People who are criticized for things they do and yet don't want to be held personally responsible will invariably blame the critics for harboring hatred for them based on race, religion, nationality, baldness, heftiness, etc. For some people, this cloak of victimhood not only renders them immune to criticism, it turns the guilt back on the critic. If I condemn an asian man for committing murder, I can do so based on his action and not his race. Racism is the failure to condemn an Asian man who has done murder, not the opposite.
Nations, particularly nations who base their character and identity on race or religion, often act in the same way. I can criticize Israel for expansionism, police actions, the demolition of the homes of Palistinians etc without hating Jews. The Star of David on Israel's flag is not a badge of immunity from criticism. The fact that the government of Israel has made the decision to establish a State Religion is, I believe, a mistake. The idea that Israel has a claim on Palestinian or other territory based on Old Testament scripture is a concept that should carry no weight in the rest of the world.
In the same regard, I reserve the right to criticize India without hating Hindus and to criticize Ireland without hating Catholics. Martin's insistence on calling criticism of Israel anti-semitism is a cheap attempt to cloak his own point of view behind the impenetrable shield of anti-semitism. His mention of "radical liberals" is an even clearer statement of his true agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:27 PM

How are Jews treated in Algeria?

How are Jews treated in Iran?

How are Jews treated Saudi Arabia?

How are Jew treated in Syria?

How are Jews treated in Egypt?

Does it matter?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

In all of these places, they got the hell out. Why? Because they fear for their lives there I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:03 PM

Critism of FLAME only tends to fan it and make it burn brighter. It also continues to bring out many who hate Israel here and it's primary citizen base.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:36 PM

Of course it matters. But that has nothing to do with people in the US protesting how our tax dollars are being used.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:40 PM

Then why don't you high tail it out of the U.S. ... bout time Jack the Sailor got back here ... then you would have such a negative excuse about where your tax $$ go to.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 PM

Because, last time I checked, the United States was still being called a "free country".

Israel does NOT have a right to chase me out of my own country. And if you think they do, you are in for a very rude awakening.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:50 PM

Yikes!

Carol C. with an RPG launcher over her shoulder standing on her front lawn.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:51 PM

Nope. Just me with my trusty computer and internet connection. The pen is far mightier than the sword.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM

But your not using a pen ... just to be difficult here.

Do you complain to your government representatives about you issue with tax $$ .. are there not organizations which you can join to amplfy your voice of objection?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:06 AM

All of the people who represent me in my government have been bought and paid for by the "Israel first" lobby. If any member of my government even so much as makes a peep about how maybe the way my tax dollars are being spent in Israel isn't such a good thing, the "Israel first" lobby will get that person unelected so fast it would make your head spin.

So no, there is no representation for me in my government. Only Israel gets representation in my government.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:07 AM

And yes, I do complain.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:12 AM

Jeeezuz .... I'd be more pissed off on how your tax dollars are going into the mess over in Iraq ... even more pissed off on how the youth of your country are getting killed and maimed over there ... That would be my first priority in the "pissed off" department.

Man ... am I glad I'm Canadian and live in Canada .. but down somewhere in me I do have an affinity with Israel, and humanity to all ... sorry, buts thats the way I am.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Jeeezuz .... I'd be more pissed off on how your tax dollars are going into the mess over in Iraq ... even more pissed off on how the youth of your country are getting killed and maimed over there ... That would be my first priority in the "pissed off" department.

I am pretty pissed off about that. But I don't see why I should be more pissed off about Iraq than I am about Israel. I consider all crimes against humanity to be equally abhorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:20 AM

I do to.

But ... when kids in your own commuity are being sent off to a useless war ... a war that will drain your economy away, which is your livilihood and the right to a secure decent life ... I think that would be my first priority.

Then, after that has been dealt with I'd go the the next item in my "pissed off" department.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:24 AM

And I am working on trying to change, within my own country, the attitudes that prompt us to wage war for oil. And I do protest my government's war for oil agendas. I protest all of the things done by my government that I consider to be reprehensible. One of these things is sending my tax dollars to Israel for the purpose of killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:26 AM

Plenty to be pissed off about these days.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:30 AM

Oh Carol, oh Carol ... I give up for now. Will continue this debate (more than likely) at another time ... but I suggest concentrating on your own community and country first ... it certainly needs all the help it can get.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:33 AM

Nope. Not the first priority. It's all a part of the same problem. Israel wanted us to invade Iraq, too. I heard Benjamin Netanyahu telling us to invade Iraq on television with my own ears. He said, "Just do it. You don't need anyone's permission". Israel wanted the US to invade Iraq as a part of its goal of becoming the hegemonic power in the Middle east.

And now the president of my country has said (today), that the United States would wage war on Iran in order to protect Israel (which already has one of the best, most powerful, and most advanced militaries in the world). So not only are the young men and women of my country getting killed in Iraq, they may soon be getting killed in Iran, too, because Israel is unwilling to live in peace with its neighbors. What Israel does effects us all, whether we like it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:37 AM

(which already has one of the best, most powerful, and most advanced militaries in the world)

A military which the taxpayers of the United States paid for, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHaaaaaHHHHHH .... I giveup ok, ok!!!!

You can drive anyone absolutely NUTS!!


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:50 AM

You can drive anyone absolutely NUTS!!

Thank you.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM

I vote with Sorcha! -----Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:44 AM

I've deleted a few personal attack and name-calling messages, but I don't see reason to close the whole discussion. There are still a number of messages that shouldn't be here, but deleting them would ruin the discussion. Please remember, though, that personal attacks like name calling and ad hominem attacks are not allowed.

I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel. Somebody needs to stand up for peace in the Middle East, and for the right of Israelis to keep the home they've had for fifty years or more AND the right of Palestinians to a homeland. There has to be a peaceful compromise that will serve the needs of everyone (if not their desires) - somebody needs to stand up and support compromise, instead of all this polarization.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:48 AM

Here's compromise for you, Joe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang - PM
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

I'm curious, Carol. Why the before 1967 borders and not for instance the 1948 borders or the pre-1948 borders? What makes a border originating from a war acceptable to you?

Wolfgang




Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

It's a compromise, Wolfgang. The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:03 AM

Right, Carol. In general, the 1967 borders seem to be a reasonable compromise, as long as Israelis can have access to Jerusalem. It's my understanding that there is a growing moderate movement among Israelis that wants peace, and wants all sides to get a fair shake. There are Palestinians who want the same - I met some myself when I was in Jerusalem. We need to support these people people who are willing to find middle ground and peace. As long as we support one side against another all we'll have is conflict.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 03:35 AM

The obvious answer (which neither side will accept initially) is to make the whole of historic Jerusalem an international city, administered by a neutral power. Have two secular states, with different flavours, but with agreements concerning the rights of Palestinians in Israel and Jews in Palestine.

A truth-and-reconciliation process on the South African model. Then a huge development plan to repair the damage done to the respective economies.

This involves huge write offs for each side: the loss of property by the families of Palestinians who were forced out of Israel in 1947, the amnesty of the carnage in the whole area since, the nuclear disarmament of the whole area, and the enforcement of that by a neutral power, the abolition of militias....

But short of that, the next thing after putting a wall around Israel, would be to put a lid on it too, because they will have to keep the enemy out for not just a few, but hundreds of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:02 AM

"I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel."

Joe, thanks for summarizing the feeling of many.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:31 AM

The two primary problems with the pre-1967 borders were the Golan Heights (part of Syria) and the narrow corridor through Jordan that contained the road between the coast and Jerusalem. Both of these were used as bases for attacks on Israel proper. As a former artilleryman, I can tell you with some certainty that firing from the Heights (and I've been there) would add at least five miles to the range of any artillery or rocket being fired south or west. Another issue was the denial, by the Jordanians, of Jewish access to the Temple Wall (Wailing Wall) in the Old City. It is easy to say that good will can correct these problems, but, IMHO, the Israelis would like some guarantees.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:10 AM

Right on, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:42 AM

it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel

Actually, Joe, its more accurate to say that the increasingly irrational, violent, and pig-headed behavior of Israel has made it impossible for many folks with a conscience and a sense of fair play to support Israel unconditionally.

Israel has deserted the "liberals".


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:15 AM

I'm a liberal and I havn't abandoned Israel OR the United States. I don't agree with some of the things the United States GOVERNMENT has done - but that's a long way from abandoning the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,NEW GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

Carole writes "One of these things is sending my tax dollars to Israel for the purpose of killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians."
Please Carole - what a crock- why waste your time spouting off obvious propaganda nonesense.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

Well said Joe Offer, my sentiments exactly.

I disagree with Sorcha ... this is a good thread.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM

Joe:

I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel. Somebody needs to stand up for peace in the Middle East, and for the right of Israelis to keep the home they've had for fifty years or more AND the right of Palestinians to a homeland. There has to be a peaceful compromise that will serve the needs of everyone (if not their desires) - somebody needs to stand up and support compromise, instead of all this polarization.

Hear, hear. My suggestion of a slice of New Mexico, practical as it may have been, is water over the dam, and doesn't address the other reason(s) for fighting over a rather miserable pice of real estate (FWIW, while I wasn't in Isreal, I was over in the Sinai last month, and I can tell you that for all its beauty, it's a big freakin' desert...). "Next year in Jerusalem" is a part of the culture and history FWIW, and the Christians and Muslims have a fair stake in the area as well. But, to my mind, that would argue for some kind of international, non-sectarian administration of the antiquities and holy sites there. The world has seen in Afghanistan the destruction of the Bamiyan buddhas, and we (my partner and I) were appalled on visiting the Nile valley antiquities the purpusful effacing of all the human faces on the pharoic era friezes by the subsequent occupiers. People that care more about religions than they care about preserving our common human heritage do some pretty nasty things.

Preserving (or creating) a "safe" haven for the Jews is certainly a worthy enterpise taken in isolation, given history. But that's hardly an excuse for "open under new management" type solutions that present their own difficulties (sometimes even the same ones, with just the names changed) as the original problem.

Only a true peace and tolerance will ever provide safety ... and this goes for U.S. efforts in other areas as well. Hey, we still have our own lingering problems with co-existence here.

I can't believe that a wall solves anything in the long run. I can't believe that dividing people fosters the bridges that will hopefully eventually ties us all together.

My Turkish co-workers once saw holiday pictures of my family, and commented "are you trying to integrate the whole world all by yourself?" Yes, I think if we could do it, we would, but we're just one family (and there aren't enough Langsetmos the world around). But perhaps over time, it will be harder and harder to find ways to divide us or put labels on us. I just know that walls ... and immigration laws ... and borders ... and religious fundamentalism and conservatism .. and laws that say you can come but you can't stay or you can't marry or have your kids accpted in the country in which they were born ... are the wrong way to achieve that. So there's plenty out there that still needs fixing, the way I reckon.....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:51 PM

Arne, you are not supposed to drink your acne medication.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:21 PM

And I take it that CarolC has discussed this 1967 borders business with the Palestinians, and can give her personal guarantee that everything will be skittles and beer if Israel does what she asks.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM

Good grief, M. Ted - At least it would be a start. Its not a bad idea. Why put if down? Other than starting a nuclear war, do you have any better ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:14 PM

'Martin Gibson':

Let me descend for a moment to your level, and seee if it furthers the conversation:

Arne, you are not supposed to drink your acne medication.

Dunno about that, Martin. My acne medication consists of a fine Cognac, and it certainly makes your visage more tolerable, if not appealing.

Now, back to the subject at hand, if you can manage it, 'Martin'.....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

Israel wanted us to invade Iraq, too. I heard Benjamin Netanyahu telling us to invade Iraq on television with my own ears.

Right, Israel controls the United States. President Bush takes his marching orders from the Jews.

What CarolC does not tell you is that Benjamin Netanyahu is now an opposition politician in Israel. According to the polls, he his party will probably come in third, behind Labor, and way behind Kadima, in the upcoming Israeli election.

CarolC's false claim that Netanyahu speaks for Israel is as spurious as saying that Senator Clinton speaks for George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:20 PM

Dianavan,

If you could promise me that all Palestinians would agree to live in peace if the 1967 borders were restored, I would shed many, many happy tears--but you can't--There are many out there who will not accept that-- there are many who demand that things be restored to the way the were before 1948--


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

Yeah, let's bring back 1948 when the British colonial masters were in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM

"spurious as saying that Senator Clinton speaks for George W. Bush."

I wish that someone would speak for Bush; he certainly has trouble speaking for himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:58 PM

Don't worry Peace ... he has Karl Rove standing right there behind him at all times, telling him what to say.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM

Make Jerusalem an international city and move the UN there to administer it. That way neither Christian, Muslim, or Jew will have control but all will have access.

That should remove one major bone of contention.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM

As if both sides would agree to that !!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

Arne, you are not supposed to use your fine cognac as an enema.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM

"Make Jerusalem an international city and move the UN there to administer it."

I think that was central to a Tom Clancy novel.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:30 PM

CarolC - 02 Feb 06 - 12:33 AM

"the president of my country has said (today), that the United States would wage war......in order to protect Israel"

Are you living in a time warp darlin' A US President gave that binding and solemn commitment in 1948 - What's new???


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:12 PM

I like the idea of an international city of Jews, Christians and Muslims. It certainly would mean that the U.N. would need to be there as peace keepers for, at least, awhile.

For the sake of peace, do you think anyone would ever agree to that?

Very doubtful. War is much more profitable for the handful of politicians that continue to sew discord.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:44 PM

'Martin Gibson':

You'd do best to try and leave the put-downs to the professionals. You just ain't any good at it. Your latest attempt didn't even make any sense.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:47 PM

He's onto something, Arne. Don't ever use fine cognac as an enema! It burns like hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM

I'm not even going to ask how it is that Marvin and Little Hawk share that knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM

Arne, you are truly a moron. You were the one ranting about fine cognac. I am merely suggesting what you can do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM

Martin Gibson thinks he's funny.

Now, THAT'S funny!!


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:43 PM

Guest, I wasn't trying to be funny. Being funny has nothing to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM

I think that's what I just said. You have far too much time on your hands, Martin.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:07 PM

Actually, you do, pal. The cause for starting this thread was time well spent on my part.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM

Depends on how screwed up your values are.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:15 PM

Anyone with any common sense, and based on the enormous amout of supportive PMs I get, realize how screwed up the ultra-liberal values are here.

In other words, it is your values that keep you as an outsider looking in.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM

You're dilusional.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

Worth seeing and hearing.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:13 PM

"Anyone with any common sense, and based on the enormous amout of supportive PMs I get..."

Martin Gibson is a liar and a coward. And his supporters are cowards too if they only support him in PM's. If they DID start crawling out of the woodwork that would be something else. But until they do it's all just a pack of lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:14 PM

I apologise for that last post.

I forgot to sign my name.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:01 PM

I think you can count the supportive PMs Martin Gibson gets on the fingers of (look, Ma!) no hands. Anything he posts, it's more than appropriate to keep it in the BS threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:09 PM

Not true. The REAL truth is out there. And you know it.

And Wesley S. still needs to have the guilt he feels addressed by a professional. I am not his problem. He is his own worst problem and at this point, I almost consider him to be dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:16 PM

No, I DON'T know it. I don't believe you, Martin. Prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:19 PM

He can't guest. Leave the poor guy alone. He's scared.It would destroy his fantasy would if he had to provide facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:28 PM

True, Wesley. It's all the poor slob has got.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:22 PM

I have proved it by your response of denial, which has zero credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:27 PM

Thanks, Guest 2:46 for that heart breaking link.

Watching it makes me wonder if Martin and the other apologists feel proud of the misery they have caused and whether they believe these people are happier now that America has 'freed' Iraq.

Take a look, Martin, and comment if you dare. C'mon, I want to see what kind of man you really are.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

"I have proved it by your response of denial, which has zero credibility."

What the hell does THAT mean? Speak English, you twit!

You've proved NOTHING except that you're a pathetic gas bag.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:51 PM

I've proved that you are an asshole, Guest. That was easy. I will not reveal the many who have snet me PMs who trust me and I trust them.

Dianavan, I am more man than a dried up old hag like you could ever handle! You are broke and cannot be fixed.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 10:52 PM

I agree, Joe, that moderates need to be supported. That's what I do (and have been doing) in threads like this one.

Carole writes "One of these things is sending my tax dollars to Israel for the purpose of killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians."
Please Carole - what a crock- why waste your time spouting off obvious propaganda nonesense.


I think you're the one who is spouting propaganda nonesense. What I said is completely true, and can be proven, as I have done many, many times here in the Mudcat already.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:03 AM

'Martin Gibson':

Arne, you are truly a moron. You were the one ranting about fine cognac. I am merely suggesting what you can do with it.

Oh, nonsense. Anyone that knows how to use a scroll bar (and I'll reserve judgement WRT you on that) can easily see what you said. Go on, put on the brave face, but you're "truly a moron" if you think this last missive of yours is gonna fly..... It would seem, as one wag here has noted, that I'd be best off not taking your advice on that subject ... or on any one, for that matter.

* * * * *

Now, I do believe you own me an apology (if you can manage the scroll bar operation). You accused me of a rather vile character trait, one that I do not possess. I do think it's time you apologised. Or put forward evidence to back your accusation (of which there is none). Absent that, I do think that a request to the Mudcat proprietors for a deletion of your comment[s] is in order.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:52 AM

Right, Israel controls the United States. President Bush takes his marching orders from the Jews.

I didn't say "the Jews". I said, the "Israel first" lobby. Some of the people who comprise that lobby are Jews, but hardly all of them. There are many fundamentalist Christians in that lobby as well. And certainly not all Jews are represented by that lobby. Many, in fact, are not.

What CarolC does not tell you is that Benjamin Netanyahu is now an opposition politician in Israel. According to the polls, he his party will probably come in third, behind Labor, and way behind Kadima, in the upcoming Israeli election.

Well, since I saw/heard him say that before we invaded Iraq, when Netanyahu was not in opposition, I don't really see how your point is relevant.

CarolC's false claim that Netanyahu speaks for Israel is as spurious as saying that Senator Clinton speaks for George W. Bush.

It's hardly just Netanyahu. Many members of the Bush administration, who also serve in Israeli think tanks, have stated quite openly that a US invasion and occupation of Iraq is in Israel's interest. Here's one of their policy papers...

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq â€" an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right"

That paper was co-authored by Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:27 AM

Query: Is it simple masochism that makes some folks continue to engage Farty Marty because they actually get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of being abused by a foul-mouthed moron?

What gives? Pounding salt down a rat-hole would be more productive.

Save yourselves some aggro: listen to old Don Rickles recordings & pretend you're in the audience. At least Don was clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:12 PM

C'mon Greg - we're just having some fun with the old boy. It's kind of like bothering the old toothless dog down the road. You know he's harmless so you rattle sticks at him just to see him bark. Maybe it is a bit cruel after all.

And all those messages of support that have been "snet" to Martin ? I guess you could call spam offering penial implants as "messages of support" but I think that's stretching it a bit.

PS - How can you tell that Martin Gibson is lying ?

Answer - His lips are moving.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:14 PM

"Rollin', rollin', rollin'...keep them dogies rollin', Rawhide!"


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:18 PM

Don't try to understand them - just rope, throw and brand them.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

Here's a link to a site with all of the song lyrics of Dimitri Thomkin's music

http://www.geocities.com/karamaev/songs.html


Theme From Rawhide
Music by Dimitri Tiompkin - Lyrics by Ned Washington

Rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', Rawhide!

Rollin', rollin', rollin', though the streams are swollen
Keep them dogies rollin', Rawhide.
Rain and wind and weather, hellbent for leather
Wishin' my gal was by my side.
All the things I'm missin', good fiddles, love & kissin'
Are waiting at the end of my ride.

Chorus:
Move 'em on, head 'em up, Head 'em up, move 'em on
Move 'em on, head 'em up, Rawhide!
Count 'em out, ride 'em in, ride 'em in, count 'em out
Count 'em out, ride 'em in, Rawhide!

Keep movin', movin', movinU
Though they're disapprovin'
Keep them dogies movin', Rawhide
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just rope 'em, pull and brand 'em
Soon we'll be living high and wide
My hearts calculatin'
My true love will be waitin'
Be waitin' at the end of my ride

Chorus
Hyaa!
Rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (Hyaa!)
Rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (Hyaa!)
Rawhide! Rawhide!


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

No agro on this side, Greg. Toss a mild bard or word or two indicating a bit of doubt Martin Gibson's way and he reacts by throwing a barrage of smut-mouthed insults and sprays great gobbets of spittle. From his typos and linguistic screw-ups, he reveals that his response is all bile and no brain. Goad him a bit and he reveals exactly what he is.

If he can validly claim that he's received any PMs supporting him, then I can validly claim that I'm the Supreme God of the Universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:29 PM

Here's the whole danged song...and more!

Rawhide

Check out that young Clint Eastwood.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 09:28 PM

You are not the supreme God of the universe, Guest. Just a piece of fecal matter, that's all.

Guests have no friends and get zero PMs. They just continue to belittle the forum.

The agitated guests are just some of the regulars on this forum so bent out of shape and so full of hate that with all of the same usual ones giving me a hard time, they just don't realize that it just keeps getting easier and easier to figure out who they are.

Wesley, have you done as I wisely suggested and met with a professional about your on-going guilt that you blame me for?

Arne, I apologize for not suggesting to change that cognac to Jack Daniels for that enema you need. Otherwise, have a very nice evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo (OTR)
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:02 AM

'Martin Gibson':

Arne, I apologize for not ....

You misspelled "I'm not apologising..."

You accused me of "hatred of Jews" (and of Israel). A rather vile accusation, given the historical background of such hatreds, with no basis in fact (the alleged "hatred" of Israel is likewise unsupported). If you had half a brain to think (or even to read), you'd know that was the subject of my request for an apology. Go on, blow it off again, but you'll just demonstrate why it is you that is the vilest one here, and why anyone in their right mind ought to have an extreme distaste for your spewings....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:49 AM

When Martin starts using 'potty talk', you know that you have pushed his buttons and that he is highly offended. What he doesn't realize is that when he reveals himself this way, everything he has said previously just gets flushed down the toilet because nobody really cares what he has to say anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:59 AM

He's already told us--more than once-- that for him Mudcat is just a means to kill time and yank chains. As I've mentioned elsewhere, that tells us exactly how seriously to take anything he says. He has thereby insured that that he has absolutely no credibility---- on this or any other topic--with the possibly exception of guitars, and, as I've mentioned before, I suspect he's shaky on that also.

He also has informed us that he is "dehumanized every day".

As I also said elsewhere--the process is complete.

And, what's more, nobody had to lift a finger to do it to him---he performed the honors himself.

OK, "Martin", I've had my say.   I can hardly wait for your calm reasoned reply.

And, regardless of what you say, I'll have no further comment on this thread--which, considering the originator, was doomed from the start.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:29 PM

And you Arne and Ron are yanked again for the one millionth time. I've been counting.

This thread has had great response as has my other one, Ron.

Arne, you have come across as pretty unsupportive of Israel and the Jews. FLAME is an organization that addresses anti-semitism disguised as anti-zionism amongst an ultra liberal faction. The purpose of this thread is to see who agrees and who doesn't. And for that, an apology will not probably happen. Deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo (OTR)
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM

'Martin Gibson':

And you Arne and Ron are yanked again for the one millionth time. I've been counting.

Seems you misspelled "flamed", 'Martin'. Seems you have an interesting definition of "yanked". To you it seems to mean that you spout your mouth off with slurs and insults, and somehow count it as a feather in your cap when someone responds. You know, 'Martin', my niece then was the perfect "yanker" a while back when she was only a couple of years old; screaming and putting on outrageous shows until someone "responded" (usually by sending her to a time-out where she could exult for a while at the attention she got).

But one might just as easily make the argument -- if "responses" are what constitues the hallmark of success regardless of the form of response -- that you have yourself been yanked many a time. N'est ce pas?

Arne, you have come across as pretty unsupportive of Israel and the Jews.

Ummm, which "Jews"? Anyone in specific you had in mind?

But I'd point out that rational people find a clear distinction between lack of blind and complete support for someone (or something) and "hatred" of the same. Really. Hate to belabour the obvious seeing as it's been pointed out to you previously many a time, but maybe rote repetition actually might have some effect ... albeit as long as not directed at a zucchini.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

The majority, Arne. The ones you have no idea who you are talking about. The Jews you hate so much it appears.

Keep at it, Arne. Your hole is so deep, it's pretty hard to see you already. I stopped listening and reading your hate already some time ago.

Arne, why don't you join AIPAC? I did. One of the biggest organizations of it's kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo (OTR)
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:45 AM

'Martin Gibson':

The majority, Arne....

Nonsense. I don't "hate" faceless, nameless, unspecified people. By your thinking, if I walked into a room of 100 Jews I'd never seen, I'd have to "hate" some 63 of them picked at random (and not "hate" the rest). The absurdity is obvious, and your insinuation that I do such a thing is vile. Perhaps this is how you go about your "hating" business, but I retain some vestiges of rationality and humanity. That being said, you'd be hard pressed to name any "majority" of Jews that I "hate" (you might try starting with a sample size of one, 'Martin', but you should be aware that I don't hate you ... I simply have less respect for you than I do for a snarling, rabid dog).

Arne, why don't you join AIPAC? I did. One of the biggest organizations of it's kind.

Did you join, 'Martin'? Maybe we can expect some peace and quiet around here when they frog-march you out, eh? You can spend some 'quality time' with Larry, Steve, and Keith then....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM

Marty thinks that if he throws out acronyms as URJ and AIPAC that he will sound knowledgeable. He doesn't count on people doing any research. He thinks everybody goes off as half-cocked as he does.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:57 PM

FLAME is non-profit organization that collects money and uses it to run "advertorial" style essays concerning Israel in many Jewish publications. It is run by Gerardo Joffe, who you may not know by name, but is regarded as being one of the top direct marketing mavens--he started Haverhill's. and later sold it to Time/Life, and currently sells "Cosmomaut Watches" on line--

At any rate, Gerardo specializes in writing compelling direct marketing letters--and his business at FLAME consists of writing alarming fundraising letters aimed at wringing contributions out of little old ladies, and apparently, Martin--he's been at it since 1987--last year it was about $950,000--

Gerardo points out, at the FLAME website, that he takes no salary, nor does anyone else. To prove he is telling you the truth, he also shows you financial statements--his accounting categories vary wildly from year to year, as do the expenditures.

The organization currently spends about $300-400k per year on comissionable advertising. Any guesses on who gets the commissions? And between $30-50k on direct marketing services(gosh, who do you suppose that they hire to do that?) And between $35,000 and $150k per year (depending on the year-it goes up every year) to repay loans to Gerardo and his wife--funny that the loan money never showed up in any of the financials--

None of nearly one million dollars that the raised last year went to Israel--though a big chunk of it seems to have gone into a Smith Barney investment account--Gotta hand it to you, Martin--you sure know how to pick em"---


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:01 PM

Sorry, lost my cookie--that report above was me--


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:20 PM

Martin Gibson claims to work for a 'major corporation.' Could it be that THIS is he works for?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Believing anything Martin says will get you nowhere. He is a figment of his own imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:00 PM

Would it be in entirely bad taste for me to utter a hearty guffaw at this particular point in the life of this thread?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:33 PM

Guest, I know for a fact that the investment in FLAME goes to the cause for Israel. I am a lot closer to the scene than you are and more than you just might realize.

So try and discredit all you want. The ones in the know expect your type of approach, and have plenty of money and clout to offset it and counter it, while you have very little.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:49 PM

Certainly is fascinating that, according to M Ted's research, of the almost $1 million FLAME raised last year, none of it went to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 12:01 AM

"A fool and his money..."


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 12:18 AM

Financial Reports: 1999-2004


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 03:29 AM

Out of $945,038 only $10,000 went to philanthropy?

Martin's a bigger fool than I thought he was.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 04:50 AM

FLAME's purpose is:

". . . the research and publication of the facts regarding developments in the Middle East and exposing false propaganda that might harm the interests of the United States and its allies in that area of the world."

That was taken from this organisation's declared mission statement.

This, GUEST 09 Feb 06 - 04:57 PM, ties in with what you say in your opening sentence:

"FLAME is non-profit organization that collects money and uses it to run "advertorial" style essays concerning Israel in many Jewish publications."

From the financial statements produced the organisation seems to spend about 50% of it's income specifically on the that purpose (A bit better than the 10% that OXFAM used to manage to deliver on it's specific purpose)

Now considering the organisation's stated purpose GUEST, why would any of the money raised be "sent to Israel"?

As to who gets commission, who is hired for direct marketing - I don't know. If you do, then name them, your post only makes allegations, at present you are merely running a smear campaign.

The opening sentence of your last paragraph about the lack of money going to Israel is spin, it is also disinformation as it plants in the minds of the reader that FLAME sets itself out to be a charitable/philanthropic organisation, which of course it is not. If you don't believe me then here are some examples of those your lie deceived:

Ron Davies - 10 Feb 06 - 11:49 PM

GUEST - 11 Feb 06 - 03:29 AM

While CarolC is busy packing, moving and guffawing she can ponder on the progress the cash strapped Palestinian Authority is making trying to recoup the $300 million plus appropriated from their treasury by the late Tosser Arafat.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 09:12 AM

More worrying still is all the money the Palestinians pay in taxes that Israel is saying they're now going to steal from them (blackmail). And also the millions of dollars worth of Palestinian infrastructure (schools, government buildings, hospitals, etc., paid for by the US taxpayers) that Israel has bombed to smithereens over the last several years.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 08:52 PM

FLAME is an honest organization wherever the money goes. It is not making 1 guy rich.

Denouncing this organization is just another anti-semitic/anti-Jewish jab.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM

Sure, MG...and an honest historian writing about Myer Lansky and Murder, Inc. is also an anti-semite, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 09:50 PM

Mayer Lansky was a gangster. You can be any type of historian to know that fact. However,he is irrelevant to this conversation.

A stretch on your part to just try and smear an organization that is having much more success at rightfully smearing left wing anti-semitism against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:57 PM

'Martin':

A stretch on your part to just try and smear an organization that is having much more success at rightfully smearing left wing anti-semitism against Israel.

Oh, so that's where the money goes. Glad you straightened that up, 'Martin'.   ;-) Goodness knows there's plenty of need nowadays for "rightful" smear jobs.... Say, 'Martin', doesn't that cut into their spying budget a bit?

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM

The issues that I brought up are fair and reasonable questions--I simply looked the "FLAME" website--based on that information, there are serious legal, moral, and ethical questions about the way that the organization collects and spends it's money.

Since some of this money may be yours, Martin, I would think that you would be very interested to know how the money is spent, and whether it is acceptable under federal law.

And, Martin, please understand that I don't necessarily disagree with all the ideas that are expressed in the FLAME articles(I don't necessarily agree with them all, either)--But I wonder who really benefits from all the money that is spent on them.

Think about this--why spend all that money advocating for Israel in Jewish newspapers? It's what the Goyim call "Preaching to the Choir"--


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:21 PM

M Ted, if you are so interested in where all of that big Jewish money goes, I suggest you go to court and file a lawsuit and command an audit.

Otherwise, speculation is for playing the horses.

I think there are some dedicated people who believe in the work they are doing in the FLAME organization.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:29 AM

Yup, that's what they're doing--"rightfully smearing left-wing antiSemitism." Certainly right up your alley "Martin"--you sure know all about smearing.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:03 AM

I like a schmear on a bagel.

Ron, as you are so easily offended and so politically correct, for you I modifying smearing to discredit. Now are you all comfortable again?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:19 PM

I don't have to go to court to get information--If FLAME is a non-profit, it is required by law to file information annually--if it isn't, then it has some explaining to do to the IRS--

As to my curiosity--you are the one who introduced the organization, and made certain claims about them--pardon me if I don't take your word for everything, but it is pretty easy to look them up--what I have seen doesn't impress me, and you haven't said anything that changes my mind--
    I think it's time for this thread to come to a close - far too much of it is personal invective. More gets added every day, and then I have to spend time at night deleting all the crap.
    -Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


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