Folklore: Jack the Ripper

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:59 PM

Can we really swallow "Carl Feigenbaum the Ripper?"

Was this the face of Jack the Ripper?

By Alan Boyle

A reconstruction of a murderer's face has reawakened interest in one of the world's most famous unsolved mysteries: Who was the serial killer behind Britain's "Jack the Ripper" murders in 1888?

More than 100 suspects have been suggested over the years, including Lewis Carroll (author of "Alice in Wonderland") and Victorian painter Walter Sickert (who was fingered in a book by crime novelist Patricia Cornwell after a $4 million investigation). This week, the BBC is throwing a spotlight on a dark-horse candidate: German merchant seaman Carl Feigenbaum, who was executed in New York in 1896 for a totally different killing.

Feigenbaum was convicted for the murder of his landlady in Manhattan, and his attorney, Willam Sanford Lawton, said afterward that his client admitted to having an "all-absorbing passion ... to kill and mutilate every woman who falls in my way." It was Lawton who first suggested that Feigenbaum was behind the murders of women in London eight years earlier.

More than a century later, retired British police detective Trevor Marriott has put together Lawton's claims and other evidence to build a case against Feigenbaum, and the case received a big boost from the BBC One program "National Treasures Live."

Marriott matched up shipping records with the timing of some of the murders, and suggested that Feigenbaum's ship could have been docked in London at the time. He also argues that not all the killings attributed to Jack the Ripper were done by the same person, based on his analysis of the locations and the different ways in which the the victims were slashed to death.

The traditional lore surrounding Jack the Ripper is that he must have been familiar with anatomical dissection, because he removed the internal organs of his victims so quickly and skillfully. Marriott contends that the organs couldn't have been cut out at the scene of the crime, but were removed at the London mortuary by doctors in training.

To add a little spice to the story, Marriott provided the BBC (and Cosmic Log) with a reconstruction of Feigenbaum's face, based on a description of the suspect from his New York admittance form.

Does Marriott make his case? Xanthe Mallett, a forensic anthropologist from the University of Dundee who reported on the story for BBC One, says she's still on the fence. "Initially, I thought Carl Feigenbaum was that serial killer. His profile fit," she writes on the BBC website. "But further evidence ... may show these murders were not all committed by the same person. Feigenbaum could have been responsible for one, some or perhaps all."

Others put less stock in Marriott's hypothesis. In a detailed analysis published on "Casebook: Jack the Ripper," one of the best-known websites for Ripperology, Wolf Vanderlinden says Marriott's theory is "plausible but not proven":

"Could the Ripper have been a German sailor? Or an American sailor? Or a Portuguese sailor? Or a Malay sailor? Of course. Could he have been a butcher, baker, tinker, tailor, beggar man or thief? Of course. Could he have been Carl Feigenbaum? Not with the almost complete lack of evidence that has been presented to support his candidacy. Wishful thinking cannot solve this puzzle."

In an email, Marriott acknowledged that his theory has been a hard sell among "hard-line Ripperologists," particularly because of the dissection issue:

"The thought that the killer, after killing the victims, removed these organs has been an integral part of the Ripper mystery for 123 years. In fact it is one of the reasons that has kept the Ripper mystery alive all of these years. So of course there are those that for whatever reason want to keep it as it is and choose not to accept new findings."

[The article has links to some additional speculations.]

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:08 PM

I thought he was the guy who won the first Crepitation Contest but I could be wrong.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:37 PM

All very well about the pea soupers, but as I recall one, at least, of the murders was done in broad daylight.

We used to have a rock and roll singer called Screaming Lord Sutch who had a record which was a mainstay of his live act, called Jack the Ripper. But it didn't chart. Sutchy was a very popular live act, and several legendary musicians played in his band The Savages.

Sutch was often described as the originator of rock theatre in England.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:56 AM

Should this thread really be in "Lyrics"? Well, stretching a point; I read somewhere, years ago, that Queen Victoria in a private meeting with a Police Chief opined that the murders must surely have been committed by a foreigner - a sailor, perhaps - because "no Englishman could have done 'em in, sirrah". A few days later, the Police received a poem, beginning,

"I ain't a Turk, I ain't a Jew,
I ain't a foreign skipper..."

Coincidence? Or was Prince Albert Victor/Duke of Clarence earwigging at the door? Or is this another red herring?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:23 AM

If you want to find out what happened to Jack, have a listen to Tom Pacheco's "The Journal of Graeme Livingstone" on his Long Walk album.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:52 AM

...back in 1880 when there was almost NO lighting and London was subject to those famous "pea souper" fogs where one could literally not see a hand in front of one's face - you can understand why the killer was never caught.

Whereas nowadays he wouldn't be caught because the police were too busy doing their paperwork from their arrest of that person caught whistling in the pub without a licence :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:21 AM

That settles it then. It was my neighbour, Nigel. If he doesn't buy me a pint tonight, I'll turn him in.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:09 AM

Analysts try to put a face on Jack the Ripper

Documentary depicts killer as mustachioed, balding, with bushy eyebrows

Updated: 6:07 a.m. CT Nov 21, 2006

LONDON - British analysts have created a composite police drawing of Jack the Ripper, depicting the notorious Victorian serial killer with a mustache, a receding hairline and bushy eyebrows, the makers of a new television documentary said Monday.

Using the 118-year-old statements of 13 witnesses, a Metropolitan Police analyst created an image of what the prostitute-killer is believed to have looked like. The killer's image was to be unveiled Tuesday on the British television channel Five.

"It's a popular misconception that nobody ever saw the murderer, that he just vanished into the fog of London," said former Metropolitan Police commander John Grieve in a statement. "Well that's just not right. There were witnesses at the time who were highly thought of by the police."

Grieve examined the witnesses' statements and found enough similarity to think they could have been talking about the same man. The computer drawing of the murderer's face was created from the descriptions. The newest investigators believe the murderer was between 25 and 35 years old and between 5-foot-5-inches and 5-foot-7-inches tall.

[Computer generated composite picture of Jack at the link. I've seen him somewhere recently. Keep looking over your shoulders - he might be stalking YOU!]

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 06:24 AM

Great story Dave's Wife.
I can understand why Scarlet Fever was so feared by people of previous generations.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 06:13 AM

>>>From: Purple Foxx - PM
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM

Dave's Wife The fact that you knew Robert Bloch personally officially makes you one of the coolest people on the planet.<<<

I prefer to believe it makes me one of the luckiest people on the planet or one of the most blessed. He truly was a beautiful man and I said so at his memorial service before telling an awful joke with a very bad pun at the end - one he related to me when I was 17 years old, the day we first met. I figured it was an appropriate send-off. I'll try and write it up EXACTLY as he told it to me and post it here for you. It's very funny and very 'Bob'. He was a terrible punster and would always look at the ceiling and smile as he delivered the punchline. It made him look more innocent of the crime of punning!

I grew close to Bob and his wife through my lifelong friendship with Julie Schwartz of DC comics. I met Julie the same day that I met Bob and Julie & I became traveling companions. We had Thanksgiving with Bob and Elly Bloch almost every year up until Bob's death. Thankfully I have some fabulous home movies of that last Thanksgiving before Bob knew he had Cancer. He died before the next one. Sadly, Julie left us as well a couple of years ago. Life simply isn't the same without them.

Bob was pretty well versed in Folk Music and it should come as no surprise that he had a good memory for songs about ghastly crimes. He played the piano and kept a baby grand in is home but for some reason, would never play for me! I'd always have to get someone else to play when I wanted to sing for him. He had a soft spot for Gerwshin, Jerome Kern and other American music Theater greats.

Folklore also fascinated him. We talked often about fieldwork I did in Grad School collecting folk stories. In retrospect, I wish we talked more about such things and about Jack The Ripper. He had a large collection of materials on the subject which i believe he donated to a univeristy upon his death. I don't recall which one but I don't believe it was his alma mater.

RE: Folk music - Bob once recited some verses to songs (rhymes really) about Scarlet Fever to me over the phone when I was ill with it in Feb. 1994. He called me every day urging me to keep the lights out because he believed that patients with Scarlet Fever could be blinded by bright light. When I asked him about this belief, he started reciting verses to me that I wish now I had written down.   It took me a couple of days to realize that when he was a child, Scarlet Fever was greatly feared and often deadly. The simple treatment of Penicillin was decades away. For the sake of dispelling a myth, it as the very high fevers that damaged the retina and not bright light, but he could not be dissuaded from the belief.

Advice to young folklorists- follow around your elders with a tape recorder, a notebook and a palmcorder! I got a lot of footage and tape of Bob and Julie but not nearly enough. I usually taped them talking about their careers and now I wish I had spent more time asking them about music, folklore and their early lives.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:33 PM

More fascinating then the answer to who really did it is our fascination with the need to know who did it. That is harder to explain then why the murders were committed in the first place!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM

Dave's Wife The fact that you knew Robert Bloch personally officially makes you one of the coolest people on the planet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM

>>>From: MMario - PM
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM

I thought this was settled by Star Trek - Jack the Riopper was a semi-immortal psychic vampire that fed on fear.<<<

MMario, the author of that Episode, Robert Bloch, was a dear, dear friend of mine. Before his death in 1994 (from cancer), we whiled away many hours before a fire at his house disucssing Ripperania. He did write a fictional book on the subject and fingered that Polish fella as his suspect. Even so, he really didn't buy that explanation. Bob was a fascinating man and that episode of Star Trek (Wolf in the Fold) is consitantly on fans' top ten lists whenever such lists are compiled.

I miss him terribly, Bob that is, not Jack The Ripper!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: fat B****rd
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM

Hello, thurg.
I like Joe Barnett for the murders. I believe it was in the Martin Fido book that he was mentioned. (sorry, can't rmemember the name of the book)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:35 AM

strange people who did disturbing things

well thats the folk scene.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 09:11 PM

The one thing I've learned from all the various theories of who Jack the Ripper might have been is just how many really twisted people there are kicking around any given time or place ... some of the "suspects" I've heard or read about were extremely strange people who did some disturbing things, whether or not they killed anybody ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

Joseph Barnett lover of Mary Jane Kelly.
He lived in Whitechapel.
He most strongly resemble's the F.B.I.'S Psychological profile.
Somebody answering his description was seen at the scene of every one of the murders.
Whoever killed Kelly must have been known & trusted by her as she allowed him into her home. (Her trade was plied in back alleys)
Barnett made a living from filleting fish.
It is well within the batting average of chance that Sickert sent at least one hoax letter but so did dozens of other People.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 01:56 PM

i think sir john williams was jack the ripper, he new a couple of the victumes and had the ability and"reasons" to do so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:08 AM

Well done Mr. Fox - was waiting for someone else to bring that bit of info up about Sickert. I've debunked enough already.
As you say Cornwell IS a cultural vandal who is a firm propoent of the adage "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story". Another is Dan Brown.
Am just reading a booklet quantifying the mistakes and outright screw ups he claims as fact in the Da Vinci Code: simple things like being driven from his hotel to the Louvre via the Opers House inParis when to do that means you are exchanging a pleasant 250 metre stroll for a 10 minute-plus carjourney that initially takes you AWAY from the Louvre before turning back on your tracks to return to it!! All the way up to using discredited information - like his stuff about Rosslyn Chapel (ALL wrong) and even to the point of placing incorrect artists in certain galleries at the Louvre and just who happens to be whom in certain paintings. He can't even have his 'heroes' catch the correct train from the correct station at the coprrect time - he puts them on a train leaving Gare St.Lazaire at about 3am and the that train leaves Gare du Nord at 11pm - it's the last one.
Even his London info is crap - most of it is wrong: EG you cannot see Westminster Abbey from thee Horse Guards Parade Ground as Brown has his hero manage, The Inquisition did NOT execute over 5,000,000 witches during its reign of terror - estimates range between 40 and 60 THOUSAND killed. While this is a lot - it's also a LOT LESS than 5 million !!!!

Bottom line - both are simply authors and both make the mistake of attempting to con their readers that their research and information are TRUE FACT - truth be told - - - THEY'RE NOT! They are both just STORIES which is why we buy them from the FICTION SHELVES of bookshops. Neither Cornwell's book or Brown's are in the 'True Crime' or 'History' sections of booksellers or libraries!!!!!

Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:15 PM

Once again, Wee Little Drummer I just have to say how I think you are SO RIGHT !!!

THEY ALL DID IT, AND THATS THE TRUTH
(you made me laugh out loud in the library !!!) SSSSSHHH
is all I heard.

The "CRAZE" you refer to lasted a little longer than expected - the police even go involved !!!   They treated it just like a joke, like they always do ... and bowed to the tradition. Finding new ways to murder became the 'norm' and that is why, today, we have such a variety of death ...

from Jo-Jo
([e-mail])

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 04:03 PM

if the bricks in those walls could only talk.........you'd get locked up for talking to bricks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 06:00 AM

Forgive me if I drift, but this stuff about old pubs like the Prospect of Whitby having survived the Great Fire verges on the pointless. London was quite small in 1666 and the Prospect was out in what was then a suburb. The fire came nowhere near it. So sure,it survived,as indeed we have all survived a variety of nasty events that we were far from at the time they happened. I escaped Jack the Ripper. But I still can't tell you who he was.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST,Mr Fox
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:34 PM

"Cornwell simply follows the evidence available"

This is the evidence that says that Sickert was in France for two of the murders and out of London for another one, is it?

Cornwell is a cultural vandal who is prepared to destroy historically important art for utterly spurious reasons. That's all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:03 AM

and again
http://217.160.249.93/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/garrywroe_full2.html

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:00 AM

try again
Test this link: http://217.160.249.93/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/garrywroe_full2.html

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 08:58 AM

came across this website - thought it might interest some of the people who posted on this thread
http://217.160.249.93/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/garrywroe_full2.html

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 03:01 AM

Was definitely NOT Albert Victor - he was absent from London on too many of the nights in question and in the company of (on at least one occasion) several hundred people.

Muttley

Whether he caught syphilis from a prostitute (he was known to use them) or whether his 'madness' was inherited from George III is occasionally a source of conjecture. Though was established theat Sir William Gull did diagnose syphilis a year or two before his own death (1888)and the Prince followed Sir William two years later in 1890.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:14 PM

It has been pretty well been established, for the common folk, that it was the prince - who had caught an untreatable dose from a lady of the profession. Insanity (quote, quote) was a common explanation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:44 PM

Sorry, SRS - not meaning to impugn you; as you say, anyone can throw money at a project and buy the right info; and I believe that's what she did. The TV program simply follows her lead because each new theory wants to be "the right answer" especially in the case of the Ripper.

However the reasoning that because she writes them makes her (or could make her) a competent detective I think is erroneous. She probably did little of the footwork herself (as you say - she threw money at the project and you don't need a lot to investigate files and archives yourself. Much of that money, I suspect was paid to other 'Ripperologist' specialists and crime-scene consultants to analyse what she was getting.

The bottom line; most Ripperologists (including the professional criminal investigators) disagree with her and Sickert remains a VERY highly dubious suspect - in fact Cornwell is about the only one to take him seriously any more.

not to MANITAS - You're right, The "Prospect" IS a riverside pub, but it too is timber-framed and it, too survived the Great Fire.

Just checked my holiday snaps 'cause I remembered that I took a photo of the "history" printed on a board above the stairs:
The story reads thus: "PROSPECT of WHITBY ~ London's oldest Riverside Inn. Built circa 1520 in the reign of Henry VII"
It then goes on to list all the monarchs since, to QEII

Back to SRS - I suggest (not unkindly) you read Cornwell's book and then look for the one by Tony Wiliams "Uncle Jack", you'll see that Williams book and arguments are far less 'slick' than Cornwell's, but for all that he presents a FAR more solid case for an (up until now) unknown and unconsidered suspect. He still falls short, of course all theories do because we a re too far removed in time and culture to accurately pinpoint the relevant facts.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:17 AM

I didn't read her book, but there was an hour or two special program a couple of years ago that followed the path of her research and she hit all of the high points. I didn't find her close-reading skills to be in any way deficient, and mine are just fine, thank you very much. Much of our exposure to the story over here in the U.S. has been through dramatic suppositions that made it to Movie of the Week. Then there was that movie with Malcolm McDowell--"Somewhere In Time," I think it was called? Lots of plays on the story exist.

Any detective is going to have to pick and choose, based on what makes sense as the evidence is accumulated. And being a writer, and a mystery writer at that, does not eliminate Ms. Cornwell from being a competent detective, especially with the money she was able to throw at the project.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:53 AM

There are photographs extant of the victims. I've never seen one that was very clear, but the Kelly photos -- taken in situ -- can only be described as horrible.

I've also read that the victims were probably taken from behind because they were expecting intercourse from the rear. A blow to the larnyx would certainly stun them and might well kill them, but a fast throat slashing would also prevent a scream.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:11 AM

I'm not sure about the Prospect being London's oldest surviving pub - riverside pub, maybe but for most of it's life it wasn't actually in London. Right by Aldgate bus station is the Hoop & Grapes which is the only timber-framed building in the City to survive the Great Fire.

Here's some other pubs which claim to be the oldest

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=london%27s+oldest+pub&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:40 AM

Never been a coach driver Hoot - sounds like fun though! Actually (my fault for being unclear) I meant "computer" sites as in Casebook - Jack the Ripper - a really good site. As for the actual sites - the only one obliterated is that where Mary Jane Kelly was dismembered. Apparently (according to the tour guide we had on our "Ripper Walk") after such an horrific crime the owners of Miller's Court and the houses round about found it difficult to retain tenants and eventually the place was torn down. "housing" of sorts was then erected, but again the "ghost" of Mary Kelly's horrific end continued to dissuade people settling and that street and houses are now a multi-level parking lot. However most of the sites are still 'visitable' if only as locations. Unless your great grandparents a re Jack the Ripper??? Hmmmmmmmmmmm!
My vote is still in favour of Chapman, Maybrick or Williams - especially Williams (though Abberline believed Chapman (aka Koslowski) was, in fact, the Ripper).

There is a tour company digonally opposite a tour-bus terminal in London (can't recall their name) they run a brilliant tour - especially if Deb does the walk and they finish up with a fish supper at "The Prospect of WQhitby" - London's oldest surviving pub.
Failing that - If you go to the bookshops in that street famous for its bookshops not far from Covent Garden there is, on the right hand side as you walk uphill (very slight hill) a shop which sells crime books as a specialty. From there you can get a small red booklet entitled "the Jack the Ripper Walk". The book is produced by "Louis' London Walks". Contact is Paul Garner: Telephone [phone] or the website www.lwalks.co.uk. "Louis'" produce several of these booklets.
Interstingly the site of Catherine Eddowes murder is now the location for a raised, brick flowerbed. Apparently a 'memorial' was erected to her following (and at the site of) her murder - it got souvenired. It was replaced and that was souvenired too, so they erected the garden bed which is about 10 feet square figuring not even Londoners could pinch THAT too easily!
Also when I say 'ghost' in reference to Kelly - I don't mean that literally as there has never been a reported haunting. That being said, though, quite a number of folk have reported seeing a body in "lower class Victorian dress" laying in the street at the site of Catherine Eddowes murder!

As for weelittledrummer ans alanabit Tsk Tsk Tsk - such irreverence ! Funny though - I especially liked the Murder on the Orient Express angle - but if you're gonna include Posh and Becks; you ought to include Kate Moss as well - she's go to the opening of an envelope so there's no WAY she'd miss something like a good celebrity murder!

Moleskin - according to the evidence I have read, they were all either savagely HIT in the larynx stunning the vocal chords and then slashed across the throat just below the larynx itself - rendering them silent. one evidences a right to left slash (Kelly I think) while all the others were slashed left to right - ostensibly by the killer standing behind and presumably after he had rendered them speechless and helpless.

There are about 6 to 9 other "possible victims" and at least one of them was strangled but she was the only one. The five all routinely admitted to be genuine Ripper victims were all slashed.

An interesting bylight that was thrown up in the film "From Hell" - which centres on the old and probably unreliable "Royal Conspiracy Theory"; was that Mary Kelly actually survived and that it was a different woman occupying Kelly's room as a 'sub-let' who was murdered and then incorrectly identified.

Kelly was the only one "butchered" beyond recognition: her abdominal cavity was emptied and the contents placed around her body, both breasts removed to the rib cage (including bits of ribs), the heart was removed as was the entire abdominal wall, vulval region, the front of both thighs and these all placed with other organs around the body. Can't recall if the heart was ever found. The arms were slashed and the face was slashed deeply and numerously completely obliterating her features. The only features untouched were her eyes.

However, the only positive ID was from the landlord who said only that Mary Kelly rented that room and her erstwhile and recently disposed-of live-in lover. His ID was from across the room and he only identified the corpse as Kelly because it had blue eyes - the same as Mary's. However, several VERY reliable witnesses reported having not only seen Kelly after the body was found - but to have spoken with her.

I have heard this theory several times - that Kelly actually got away and the body was mis-identified but if you care to access the "Casebook - Jack the Ripper" site. Go to "Victims" (left-hand contents column) Access "Mary Jane Kelly" when the names and portraits appear and then scroll down to the bottom; one of the articles associated is called "Did Mary Kelly Live On? (or something like it!). The guy expresses a really good case but spoils it at the end by getting all "and they all lived happily ever after" on the reader.

Anyway - keep searching.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:24 AM

Muttley,

Must agree with you re Ms Cornwell but have to admit I haven't read her book although I have read most of the others over the years.
You urge people to go visit the Ripper sites, what exactly is left ?
My great grandparents lived in Montague Street and Preston Street which are both now part of Hanbury Street and my Grandfather was born there in 1872. Hanbury Street was as you are already aware of course the site of one of the Ripper victims. That house has dissappeared likewise the buildings in the street behind Whitechapel Station. I have been into the area quite a lot over the last year or so photographing anything that might be left from the era when my various forbears were living there and there is really very little. Nevertheless it is an interesting area and what is left should be preserved and protected from the city developers with vast megabucks who are gradually eating into what is left and putting up vast blots on the landsacep.

Hoot

P.S. Have you given up coach driving or is my memory for names at fault?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 05:31 AM

I was interested by Muttley's declaration that all the murders were done with the same knife. I had never come across that information in any of the Ripper books, and I find it very surprising. Likewise the stuff about the death blows. It is not impossible for different people to be of a similar height and to strike with the same hand, and in any case weren't some of them strangled?

MJ

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:59 AM

So there's is no prospect of an arrest in the near future?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:44 AM

They all did it. It was like Murder on the Orient Express. One night they all piled of the Dorchester pissed, and said, let's do someone in. They all had a stab.

A few weeks passed and it became a fashion......Celebrity Stab. they wwere all at it The Royal Family, Oscar Wilde, David and Victoria Beckham (they never miss out on anything!). You were a nobody if you weren't invited to a Celebrity Stab evening.

After a while, it failed to amuse, and they all went back to fox hunting and croquet.

Works for me.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:13 AM

Queen Victoria. Florence Nightingale. Lord Palmerston. Isambard Kingdom Brunel. Rudyard Kipling. Ralph Vaughan Williams. Edward Leader Williams. Kitchener of Khartoum. The Nizam of Hyderabad. W.G.Grace. Charles Dodgson. The Shan Van Vocht. Tim Healey. Charles Parnell. Tim Bobbin. The Ladies of Llangollen. And Abby Sale.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM

Cornwell followed the evidence based on HER initial presuppositions and then followed the trail which best labelled her suspect as the killer.

If you want a an unbiased account - read Uncle Jack - the author never even set out to peove a case, in fact he openly admits he knew very little Ripper lore prior to following his uncles story.

Thge artwork and boarding house material has been done to death by hundreds of VALID investigators and very little has pointed to Sickert. In fact he is only now a suspect because he has always traditionally BEEN one. Even when proposed initially he was labelled a "too easy scapegoat" - though not in those words.

Cornwell is a detective thriller writer - it doesn't make her an authority. In other words she makes up her plot, decides on victim (or victims) and perpetrator and then sets about having her hero (or heroine) solve the case. She couldn't solve a real case if her life depended on it.

Finally, if you want an even better analysis of available material there was a panel discussion back in (I believe, the '80's or early '90's) where a group of modern Scotland Yard senior detectives, forensic investigators, forensic psychologists and criminologists analysed all the available suspects and in nthe end THEY couldn't comprehensively agree on one name: They fell roughly into two camps and neither was James Sickert - he was a nobody - a red herring and no true or informed 'Ripperologist' even takes him seriously any more.

My point about Cornwell "folowing the evidence available to her" also left unsaid (for those who know how to read between the lines) "and that SUITED her (presupposed) case".

Muttley

I DO urge you to visit the various Ripper sites and especially the 'Casebook: Jack the Ripper" site for better-informed data than Cornwell's. They even promote her book! As an opinion though; not an authority.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:49 AM

Two apologies:

It was Prince Albert VICTOR - not Albert Edward - who was the suspect and he died in 1890 NOT as 'Rapaire' states 20 years earlier - that was his father; Victoria's husband and he was never a suspect. I always end up getting those two names mixed up and writing one's name where I mean the other.

The other thing was that: And I was right the first time - (I GOTTA stop rearranging my own posts before sending them because of an errant afterthought)- - - it IS Sickert who is not a front runner as a suspect (15th out of 22) - he's way down the list and it IS, in fact, Tumblety who is up the top end (3rd).

Below is a current list which ranges from MOST to LEAST popular suspects for the Ripper identity. Two things are immediately evident: Sir William Gull is no longer even considered a suspect (he died about the time the Ripper "disappeared" while Sir John Williams is not yet listed as one as his name is very new. The best part is that Sickert has actually DROPPED a couple of places since Cornwell spouted her tripe about him.

1.          Maybrick, James

2.          Chapman, George

3.          Tumblety, Francis

4.          Barnett, Joseph

5.          Kosminski, Aaron

6.          Lodger, The

7.          Royal Conspiracy, The

8.          Thompson, Francis

9.          Druitt, Montague John

10.          Bury, W.H.

11.          Jill the Ripper

12.          Hutchinson, George (Br.)

13.          Ostrog, Michael

14.          Stephenson, R. D'Onston

15.          Sickert Walter

16.          Kelly, James

17.          Cream, Dr. Thomas Neill

18.          Stephen, James Kenneth

19.          Albert Victor, Prince

20.          Pedachenko, Dr.

21.          Deeming, Frederick Bailey

22.          Carroll, Lewis


Interestingly, George Chapman (N0. 2) is, I believe the husband of victim Annie Chapman. Most of the prostitutes the Ripper killed were in fact either married or separated (or widows). It was often (frequently) the case that impoverished women - widowed, divorced, separated - - - even many who were still actively married, worked as prostitutes simply to 'top up' the domestic finances. It may not have been the nicest "second income" but it was one that was poular among the poorer classes; and just as obviously, though it may not have sat well with the respective husbands - it was accepted as an odious necessity.

Muttley

BTW - I have walked the streets of Whitechapel - in the footsteps of the Ripper and have visited the sites of the murders of Annie Chapman, Catherine Eddowes and Mary Kelly. Walked past the Ten Bells.
It is still eerie and oppressive and in the narrow confines of the likes of Artillery Passage it is still possible to hear the whispers of the past and almost feel the presence of terror. Today it is reasonably lit but there are still vast shadowy areas and menacing alcoves - back in 1880 when there was almost NO lighting and London was subject to those famous "pea souper" fogs where one could literally not see a hand in front of one's face - you can understand why the killer was never caught.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:31 AM

Cornwell simply follows the evidence available

Well, duh. And you hold that against her?

She rounded up a lot more evidence than was EVER considered by the authorities of the day, she came up with art that portrayed the murders, she even came up with remarks by the man himself that Jack the Ripper was staying at the hotel or boarding house where she tracked his history.

To not accept the rational information she provides is to say you'd rather buy into the myth of the day. That worked, back then.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 12:16 AM

Cornwell simply follows the evidence available and quite frankly, Wiliams's case against his great (great, great) uncles is better than Cornwell's and it's still not 100% convincing.

As for Moleskin - how can you even entertain such variety of "Rippers". Read the surgeon's reports for cryin' out loud. EVERY murder was done with the same knife (not similar knives - the SAME ONE !) ~ all knives, like all guns, have "signatures" that identify them when used and though this science was still in its primitive infancy, it was still advanced enough to be of value.

Secondly, the death-blows were delivered, according to the forensics of the day (again, primitive - but quite accurate all the same), by one person as they were all delivered by a person of equal height to the others and who used the same hand.

It was the killing blow that determined their similarities (not to mention the choice of victims): Since it was the fright the murders caused among the London populace NOT the choice of victims which caused the uproar and outrage.

London couldn't care less about a half-a-dozen more dead 'Bag-tells'- dead prostitutes were turning up every other day; there were literally thousands of them working London's streets in the late 1800's.

As for Tumbelty; he is no longer considered a front runner. Sickert, too, apart from Cornwell is not the preferred option either (though he IS one of the more popular).

The message on the wall read "The Juwes are not the ones who will be blamed for nothing" - inconclusive as it merely states that it was an intelligent (educated) statement deliberately mis-spelled (though the ancient mediaeval spelling of Jews was, in fact, Juwes)placed to mis-lead and stir foment and thus attention away from the real killer.

I'll check up on the latest about Prince Albert Edward (or Edward Albet - depending on the writer) and the latest "front runners as candidates)

Later

Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM

Cornwell says it was Sickert, and builds a very, very good case. Song challenge, anyone?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: MMario
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM

I thought this was settled by Star Trek - Jack the Riopper was a semi-immortal psychic vampire that fed on fear.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:35 PM

Prince Albert? I'd guess that he wasn't Jack the Ripper, since he'd died about 20 years before.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

At one time I took a great interest in this unsolved mystery and the conclusion I came to was that the reason it was so difficult to identify JtheR was because there was no such person! My view was that the first two murders were possibly done by Francis Tumblety or someone hoping to sell him uteruses. The third murder was a red herring in that it had no characteristics of a Ripper murder and was statistically to be expected anyway. The fourth murder I thought was a copycat used to stir up anti-Jewish feeling. As for Mary Kelly I thought that was a domestic matter of some kind and she was cut up to make it look like a Ripper murder.

Good sleuthing!

MJ

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:06 AM

It's called "Casebook: Jack the Ripper" and it can be accessed via the following address.

http://www.casebook.org/index.html


Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Muttley
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM

Patricia Cornwell is a hack!

The list supplied by 'Rapaire' is pretty damn all-inclusive.

James Maybrick is one of the later additions to the list (He was the Liverpudlian Cotton Merchant): However a more recent contender has been named ....... one, Sir John Williams. Like Gull he was a physician to the Royal Family, he was a mason, he was also a gynaecologist he also worked on a stipend / voluntary basis at TWO different 'clinics' in Whitechapel and no less than TWO of the murdered women were ex-patients.

It is also demonstrated - though fairly circumstabtial and just a little inconclusively for my liking - that he also had an affair with Mary Kelly (the "last" victim). Born in Ireland, Mary grew up in Wales nearby to where Williams began practising and records show corroboration of her marriage to a Welsh local who was killed in a mine accident (as was THE Mary Kelly's husband).

The author ?Tony Williams - a great nephew of Sir John wrote the book with the original intention of writing a biography. As he turned up more evidence, his investigations led him down the 'Ripper' path. The evidence which set this search off was a box of personal effects of Sir John's located in the National Library of Wales which contained a knife with (apparent) bloodstains) of the EXACT size and configuration the Police Surgeon said must have been used on the Ripper victims as well as a note to an associate begging off an engagement as he was required in Whitechapel on the same night - the night of the death of (I think it was the second murder, from memory).

The evidence he collects also places him in Whitechapel on EVERY night a murder occurred.

The book also explains quite convincingly WHY he stopped when he did.

It gets a little repetitive at times which can be irritating as he occasionally takes several pages to retell evidence he has already taken several pages to tell half-a-dozen times before.

The book is entiltled "UNCLE JACK" and the author is Tony Williams - assisted by Humphrey Price. It's printed by Orion Books of London. The book was recommended to me by a tour guide while we were in London last year who has run a "Jack the Ripper" walking tour of Whitechapel several hundred times. The tour she runs is run by a tour company and is rated the best Jack the Ripper Tour on offer -includes a visit to "The Ten Bells" the pub which the women hung out at (and yes, it's the REAL "Ten Bells" not a replica. The walk finished with a dinner at London's oldest surviving pub - Built in the 16th Century and one of only a few buildings to survive The Great Fire in 1666.

You might also want to visit a site called the "Ripper Casebook" or the "Jack the Ripper Casebook" or some such title - I have it bookmarked and I'll post it when I locate it.

Muttley

The short answer, though, is that supplied by the GUEST who first answered you - - - - - - NO, they don't know who he was for certain; he may not even be ANY of those listed to date. The only one NOBODY believes was the Ripper these days is Prince Albert - though many an anti-monarchist would like to see that one proved.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:47 PM

Actually I think the mystery writer Patricia Cornwell did a very good job of cracking the case. I watched an interview with her and saw the evidence she tracked down. It was very convincing. Here is a link to some information about the book she wrote on the subject:

Portrait of a Killer.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:27 PM

He was the Duke of Clarence. Or maybe Dr. Gull. Or perhaps Montague John Druitt. Or Joseph Barnett, or Alfred Napier Blanchard, or W.H. Bury, or Lewis Carroll (!), or David Cohen, or Dr. T. Neill Cream, or                 Frederick Deeming. Then again, he might have been Fogelma, or George Hutchinson (Br.), or James Kelly, or Severin Klosowski (George Chapman), or maybe Aaron Kosminski, Jacob Levy, James Maybrick, Michael Ostrog, Dr. Pedachenko, Walter Sickert, James Kenneth Stephen, R. D´Onston Stephenson, Francis Thompson, Francis Tumblety, or Nicholas Vassily. Or he might have been a she. Or maybe none of the above.

Personally, I think that Jack the Ripper was Sherringford Holmes, Sherlock's evil twin.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Shields Folk
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:01 PM

Oh alright it was me!

its been playing on my mind all these years, its good to get it of my chest.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Well, OK, you don't - how about anybody else? I have read a book that claims to solve the cases using new technology, but the author starts with the assumption of being right and then only includes either inconclusive or probatory evidence, and I'd like to see the rest of it. The evidence, that is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 05:38 PM

No.

Subject: Folklore: Jack the Ripper
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 05:37 PM

Hi, yes there are a lot of threads that mention Jack the Ripper, and one ballad is mentioned therein but is not apparently in the Trad - but - does anybody know who he WAS, yet?