BS: Muslims vs Jews

Subject: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Tired of all the misinformation
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:41 PM

Anybody who has read the Bible knows the long and drawn out history of struggle between the Jews and the muslims. But to those here who have taken no time to learn the history before spouting off your uneducated opinion of what should happen, sit back, get yourself a cold drink, and read away.

According to the Bible,


Abraham was promised that he would be the father of a "great people". Abraham desperately wanted a child. God had promised Abraham a child but with impatient Abraham, and at the urging of his wife, he couldn't wait and had relations with Sarah's maidservant in order to have offspring. The product of the relation was Ishmael who is either the father or grandfather to Mohammed.
Then, BOOYAH, Sarah got pregnant and gave birth to Isaac. Father of Jacob and therefore the beginnings of the jewish lineage.
Now the Bible indicates that it's the jews who were promised the area that is now known as Israel but the area that they are currently in is somewhat smaller than what they say God promised them. Therefore, they want to eventually claim all the land that they say is due them since they are the "chosen people".
Their blood cousins, the muslims, believe that they are the rightful heirs since they too came from Abraham's loins.
Therein lies the problem.
So what we have are two books. The Bible and the Koran. Each people believe that they are the rightful tenants to the little patch of land in the middle east. Each book supports the claims of the people that read them. Each book declares that the descendants of Abraham are the rightful owners of the land.
One race is from a lawful, blessed union between man and wife. The other race is from a one night stand because of the impatience of both the same man and wife.
This issue is not something that will go away with the signing of some peace treaty. This will continue until the last day of mankind.

The end.

Your thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:46 PM

Difficult to find much history of the struggle between the Jews and the Muslims in the bible, surely? The bible finishes long before Muhammed was thought of.
Perhaps you mean Arabs or Palestinians rather than Muslims? It would be a mistake to imagine the terms are synonymous.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:46 PM

Are you a Hindu?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Tired of all the misinformation
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

Maybe you're right, greg stephens.

But then again, Mohammed was the founder of the the muslim religion. He is a direct descendant of Ishmael, the illegitimate son of Abraham.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Martin gibson,

You are right. Sarah is the true mother of Isaac. I never said otherwise.

I actually am a Christian and that is the POV that i've been taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:58 PM

who is to say that ALL the genealogical references are not inaccurate? Who kept all the records several thousand tears ago?

We base wars and enmities on a few old manuscripts with doubtful origins? Some of those names 'may' ultimately refer to actual historical persons, and some may be apocryphal and mistranslated.

Such obscure nonsense to dither over!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:01 PM

You are right. I stand corrected. You said Ishmael. but didn't Mohammad live centuries later? How could Ishmael be the father or grandfather to Mohammad?

I don't think it matters really Jews and Muslims are somewhere connected before Mohammad.

realistically, we all are.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:03 PM

Several thousand tears ago! I like that. Make it several billion tears ago...

The whole thing is a sad, sad situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

I think it's going to come as a bit of a surprise to the Indonesian Muslims and the Muslims in places like Chenya and Kosovo to learn that they are the fruit of Abraham's loins. And by your logic re: Mohammed, if you are a Christian, since Jesus was a Jew, I guess that makes you the fruit of Abraham's loins as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

Story here, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:19 PM

Of course, these fragments of half history/half legend have great political resonance today. Pity, isn't it? I have just come home from a script meeting discussing a play about Moses and the Promised Land. Uncomfortable subject. God,in the Bible, warned Joshua and the Israelities to slaughter everyone in Canaan: anyone they left would have descendants that would be prickles in the Israelites eyes. Hmmmmmm. That's one prediction one could say was pretty spot on.
   How anyone could imagine that Ishmael ia Muhammed's father or grandfather is a little worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

How can we ever expect nations to agree when most of us outside of the nationalites or countries in question can not agree. Sadly it's unlikely that peace will ever come to the Middle East, these nations are wed to fighting. So sad when people who visit this site and attempt to always take the moral high ground on every subject makes such general comments about these nations as he did in another thread. Not all of these people plant bombs. Shame on you Teddy, Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Abu Hamza Guilty
From: flamenco ted
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:53 AM

Yes Alan, I do have a tendency to dislike people who blow us. Their Nationality though is ireelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Burn the past. But who has the match?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM

We are all the spiritual descendents of the ram.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:54 PM

According to the Bible,...


Who wrote it? The Old Testament comes from where?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:56 PM

Interesting you would say that, John. In India, Ram (or Rama) is a great god-archetype from ancient times which probably predate Abraham, so people there would agree with you on that.

But I take it you meant that we like to butt heads...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:58 PM

Who wrote what in the OT.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM

No LH, I meant the ram that was sacrificed instead of Isaac/Ishmael. I contend that the true chosen people are not the ones who shout "You're wrong and I'm right", but the bemused, who can't believe their eyes or ears, and who end up bleeding on some altar for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

God said to Abraham Kill me a son Abe says: Man, you must be putting me on. God says no. Abe says What? God says: You can do what you want Abe but, Next time you see me coming, you better run Well Abe says Where do you want this killin' done? God says Out on Highway 61.

B Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

Oh yeah, I see. Agreed, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:12 PM

God, what a screed of cockamamie codwallop.

With all due respect to any deep-seated beliefs I intrude upon, I cannot imagine why clear-eyed rational humans would mess with building up such a complicated superstitious edifice based on the semi-mystical ramblings of shepherds and other agrarian types from a time when not even geometry or the Sol-centric movement of the heavens had been noticed yet. Not to lessen the value of the occasional humanitarian gems to be found therein, but honest-to-Pete, why build a whole belief system on such antiquated meanderings?

Apologies for any offense; I do not really intend to offend, just to expostulate.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:18 PM

It's "codswallop", you heathen, not "codwallop". Have a little respect. As for people who use the word "cockamamie", they should be spanked 50 times on the bare bottom and made to write "I will never use that awful word again." on the blackboard 500 times.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:32 PM

The Bible reads much better when you approach it as being 99% propoganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:38 PM

The story of the sacrifice is of course a fairytale first noted by the writer known as 'The Yahwist' circa 900 BC.

What really happened is God came to the Blue Mountains in NSW, and said that the mountains people were His favourites and Sydneysiders were shit.

He never even mentioned Jews or Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM

Yeah, Gawd makes a chosen people, then plonks down a bunch of others just to annoy them?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:52 PM

You'd think it was a TV drama, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:53 PM

Little Hawk, I learned that word from a New Zealander in good standing, and he wrote it Codwallop. You may go wallop your own, personal loving Cod.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM

...and have nothing better to do then ridicule the beliefs of others.

And you've never done that, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:13 PM

Sure, I have, Cluin. But I never claimed to be a liberal and I have not been doing it as an atheist or better yet, as one of the ultra left's anti-semites. I have done it against certain cartoon hating primitives that cut people's heads off and videotape it for the world to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:24 PM

Well, I can't blame you for that last. That deserves ridicule.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:29 PM

But criticizing others for doing what you do, whether you claim to be a non-liberal or not makes you a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:33 PM

That New Zealander, Amos, obviously was freebasing prunes or cohabiting with kiwis or something and had lost all coherency. It's codswallop. Any cultured person knows that. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM

Oh, Cluin, you hit me with a feather. big deal. I say what I believe in and don't hid behind stupid political correctness and pseudo-sensitivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:41 PM

Or logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:49 PM

"I say what I believe....."

My God! You really BELIEVE the things you say??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:14 PM

Just don't remind Martin of any of the things he's said or you'll be accused of "taking him out of context". As if there were an acceptable context for his garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:14 PM

codswallop, Amos...check yer thesaurus.

ummm....Martin....we ain't psuedo-intellecutals, we is REAL ones! I done been to college an' all! And while I was there, I learned 27 ways to identify half-baked logic and contrived accusations by fools who try to steer ALL arguments to their pre-digested conclusions. Sorry, old bean, but not everything on Mudcat is an anti-Semitic plot!

You are just a bored idiot who thinks yanking chains is a nice hobby. It is getting old.

*Bill sits back and waits for inspired rhetorical invective about his ancestry, political affiliation and sexual diversions*

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:10 AM

I just think it's hilarious that initiator GUEST had the gall to title her thread "Tired of all the misinformation" and start off with a whopper.

Troll can thou identifiest thyself any better?"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:56 AM

So you are saying that muslims are the descendents of a bastard?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Alba
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:59 AM

"her thread"
Robomatic where in the post does it imply that this Guest is a she?
Just asking not engaging in a dispute with you:)
Thanks
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:04 AM

"He-ey Jude"
everyone's got to be something, eh?
you caught the point, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:04 AM

And precisely what difference does it make if they are?

As far as I know, none of us can choose, nor are we responsible for, our ancestors.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:07 AM

Story of Isaac

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:41 AM

Ok I get the bastard thing now.
So biblicly speaking prior to the first wedding ceremony there were no bastards but afterwards there could be bastards.


Is the marriage ceremony of Adam and Eve mentioned in the bible?

if not, then everyone is a bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Tired of all the misinformation
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:34 AM

Play it how you want it. I'm just sharing information to lay the background so that we can all have a basic understanding of what's going on in that part of the world.

Now whether or not you believe in anything religious or not is not the main point. The main point is that they do (Jews & Muslims).

That is the source of the troubles and since they've been going on for thousands of years, it's really fruitless for us to assume that it's going to be solved within the next ten to twenty.

Of course, I'm not saying that we don't need to try but when two different people believe that something is their birthright, common sense often goes by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: GUEST,Maimonedes
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM

Anybody who has read the Bible knows the long and drawn out history of struggle between the Jews and the muslims. But to those here who have taken no time to learn the history before spouting off your uneducated opinion of what should happen, sit back, get yourself a cold drink, and read away.

According to the Bible,


Abraham was promised that he would be the father of a "great people". Abraham desperately wanted a child. God had promised Abraham a child but with impatient Abraham, and at the urging of his wife, he couldn't wait and had relations with Sarah's maidservant in order to have offspring. The product of the relation was Ishmael who is either the father or grandfather to Mohammed.

It would appear that the guest "Tired of all the misinformation," is herself a fountain of misinformation.

The time Ishmael was about 3000 BC. The time of Mohammad was the 7th century AD. Ishmael was neither his father or grandfather.

Furthermore, it is the Arabs who trace their lineage back to Ishmael, not Muslims. Not all Arabs are Muslim and nor all Muslims are Arabs.

With the premise of guest "Tired of all the misinformation"'s being totally inaccurate, so is everything else she has to day.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:41 PM

Tired of Misinformation: please try to get a bit of a grip. Muslims havent been doing anything for thousands of years. They havent even been around for two thousand years. the word you are looking for is Arabs, or possibly Palestinians(or Philistines?).

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:49 PM

I have done a bit of research, and I am leaning toward the prunes explanation, LH -- it is indeed codswallop, as you say. Having supplied my missing consonant from your bottomless supply, I am replete.   Thanks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 03:25 PM

Wow...what an interesting discussion!


Other than the errors of Ishmael's relation to Muhammed and the obvious mis-statement involving arab=muslim or vice-versa, the info as stated by the guest is pretty much right on in terms of what the Bible has to say about it all.

As stated correctly by a few in this thread, Muhammed came onto the scene several centuries after Ishmael but as far as the lineage is concerned, I really don't know if Muhammed has been genealogically linked to Ishmael or not. I'd go on record as saying that it's a distinct possibility and I've heard discussion on it both ways.

But don't be too quick to dismiss the recorded history of what happened. The Bible, whether you choose to believe the spiritual aspect of it or not, is a very good and accurate historical record as far as the journey of the Jews from Abraham through the Egyptian captivity and then the exodus to the land now in dispute. We all know Muhammed was a real person and I feel fairly certain that there is enough factual data among several circles to admit that the major players of the Bible were indeed real people as well.

Now for the spiritual aspect of it. The Jews do indeed believe that they are in their promised land. It is true that they do not occupy as much of the land now that they feel was promised to them from God. So the problem is really two-fold. Not only do they occupy the land that is hotly contested but they also want the rest of the land that is currently under arab control to "complete" the area that they feel that was originally promised. How big that area is, I'm not really sure, but things, I think, are going to get a lot more serious before anything starts to get better.

(This is where the bit about what Pat Robertson said about Sharon giving up the land and having the massive stroke as possible punishment from God for breaking up God's promised land. I feel as if Pat Robertson is really passionate about what he feels but is just a little...ok...a lot wreckless with how he states things from time to time.)

As a matter of fact, Christians now believe that the 2nd coming of Christ is less than a few years away according to prophecy and the recent events of what's happening around the world. Some even say that the anti-christ is now on the scene and moving up to his prophesied position. Some have even been so bold as to throw out a name of who they feel it is. It's really strange how some of this stuff actually makes a lot of sense when you look at the picture as a whole. However, I'm still not sold on the entire idea of how it will all work out. I tend to believe that there are some things that God just doesn't want us to know right now. We can guess and extrapolate all day long but at the end of the day, put them all in a hat and take your choice and each one has as much chance of being the way it will happen as any other.

But that's just the way I see it.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims vs Jews
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:40 PM

There have always been those who believed the second coming was 'less than a few years away'.

It's the nature of the beast, if you'll excuse the pun.