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BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq

Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM
number 6 12 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM
number 6 12 Feb 06 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,AR282 12 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM
number 6 12 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM
greg stephens 12 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM
Once Famous 12 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 05:40 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Feb 06 - 06:02 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 06:49 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 07:23 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 07:27 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM
Once Famous 12 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM
Once Famous 12 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 06 - 04:19 AM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 05:08 AM
polaitaly 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 AM
Epona 13 Feb 06 - 11:59 AM
Folkiedave 13 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM
Folkiedave 13 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM
Epona 13 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM
Den 13 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM
Epona 13 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 06 - 03:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 06 - 06:26 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 06 - 06:37 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 06 - 06:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 06 - 07:01 PM
Peace 13 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM
Peace 13 Feb 06 - 07:29 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 07:36 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 06 - 07:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 07:53 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM
number 6 13 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 06 - 08:05 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM
Peace 13 Feb 06 - 08:10 PM
Divis Sweeney 13 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM
Epona 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 08:21 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 06 - 08:27 PM
number 6 13 Feb 06 - 08:58 PM
Den 13 Feb 06 - 09:14 PM
Once Famous 13 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM
Teribus 14 Feb 06 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 03:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 03:54 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Feb 06 - 04:10 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Feb 06 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 04:16 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 04:18 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 04:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM
David C. Carter 14 Feb 06 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 04:45 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 05:40 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:52 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Pandora 14 Feb 06 - 06:01 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Sisyphus 14 Feb 06 - 06:03 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,The Grand Old Duke of York 14 Feb 06 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 07:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 07:19 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 07:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 06 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Keith's Compassionate Bones 14 Feb 06 - 07:38 AM
Donuel 14 Feb 06 - 07:40 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 07:49 AM
Once Famous 14 Feb 06 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 08:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 08:38 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 10:16 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 10:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 10:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 11:04 AM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM
Donuel 14 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 06 - 11:31 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 11:37 AM
Peace 14 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 12:12 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM
Teribus 14 Feb 06 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 12:28 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 12:38 PM
Gervase 14 Feb 06 - 12:48 PM
ard mhacha 14 Feb 06 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 01:08 PM
Gervase 14 Feb 06 - 01:18 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 01:37 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 02:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 06 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 02:17 PM
Divis Sweeney 14 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 02:40 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 02:54 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM
Peace 14 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM
GUEST 14 Feb 06 - 03:51 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 03:54 PM
Peace 14 Feb 06 - 04:08 PM
Epona 14 Feb 06 - 04:51 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Captain Blood 14 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 14 Feb 06 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 15 Feb 06 - 01:18 AM

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Subject: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM

Well what do you make of the video shown on the world news tonight of British soldiers kicking the lining out of youths in Iraq ? No stage work on this one. In with the boot. The soldier videoing this for beers in the mess hall later,laughs. Really don't know why there is so much talk about it, saw them and felt it often enough myself during their invasion of the North of Ireland. So is this the peace keeping force the Iraqi people need ? Come on the usual suspects here on mud, defend it, and tell us how it is justifed ?????????

Blair promises Iraq 'abuse' probe

The footage came from a "whistleblower" ex, British soldier.
Tony Blair has said claims of abuse by soldiers "will be investigated" after images that appeared to show UK troops beating Iraqi youths were published.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Let's hope justice prevails on this incident Divis ... is it a peace keeping force or an occupational force?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM

I'm amazed you'd expect anything different.It's the human male. Whether he's kneecapping a Protestant, blowing up a parade, beating up prisoners, raping women, killing civilians, building gas chambers...It's not the prerogative of the British, Divis, it's the failing of us all, no matter what our race, creed or colour. It's indefensible, unjustifiable but it's been going on since the dawn of time. How would you stop it? Good catholics, even the Pope, couldn't prevent IRA atrocities. The Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't stop Loyalist atrocities. Blair and Bush can't stop this, anymore than a good muslim leader could stop 9/11.
It's not a case for petty point scoring. It's life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:50 PM

Sorry ... I think it is more the mindset of an occupational military force ... true, it's a 'human' trace and not necessarily a male thing at that ... but when you are an occupying force, your going to see more of these acts ... an occupying force is fighting for it's life against the citizens of the occupied land, fighting for their rights and their home .... extreme behaviours will be exhibited from both sides.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM

>>I'm amazed you'd expect anything different.It's the human male. Whether he's kneecapping a Protestant, blowing up a parade, beating up prisoners, raping women, killing civilians, building gas chambers...<<

What a load of shit. I know a great many human males who do not engage in such activities and would never engage in such activities. Some American servicewomen freely participated in the sexual abuse of Iraqi male prisoners. Must be in their natural programming too.

Atrocities are a consequence of aggression, hate, superiority issues and fear -- not gender, I'm afraid. In that case, we may as well bust it down by race as well.

>>It's not the prerogative of the British, Divis, it's the failing of us all, no matter what our race, creed or colour. It's indefensible, unjustifiable but it's been going on since the dawn of time. How would you stop it? Good catholics, even the Pope, couldn't prevent IRA atrocities. The Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't stop Loyalist atrocities. Blair and Bush can't stop this, anymore than a good muslim leader could stop 9/11.
It's not a case for petty point scoring. It's life.<<

While I agree it's always going to happen and you can't prevent it, you still have to punish it whenever it occurs. To not do so is less civilized than the atrocious behavior. It is itself atrocious behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

I didn't say it was every human male, but there are enough of the type everywhere and always to make sure it goes on. I'm male myself and not one of them, but I've seen enough of them in the forces, in the pub, in the football ground, in the office, to know who they are.
And of course these actions should be punished, but it will never stop them. The real villains are the powerful who cause these young men to be brutalised by the actions they make them take in the service of their power struggles, be it Bush, Blair, McGuinness, Paisley or Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM

So true Guest!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM

Always to be condemned, and condemned according to the ferocity and disproportionate use of force. This looked terrible to me, but obviously not terrible like a bomb in Warrington shopping centre or a kneecapping. But those "our lads" need the book thrown at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM

Did I not see in the newspapers that the Iraqi "youths" had thrown a hand-grenade into the solders' post, and that it had exploded, killing or wounding some of the soldiers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

There is more to it as Richard Bridge states. Maybe this fazction of the ENEMY deserved what they got.

I'm sick of all the hand wringing on behalf of the ENEMY after they cut off the heads of captives.

Get fucking real. This is a war. It's not about politeness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

What paper was that in Richard ? Can you provide more evidence to your post of Justification or reason why this occured


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM

Let go Divis! This is not about the brits. It's about all of it, everywhere!


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:40 PM

I was so ashamed to see this video on tonights news. The last photographs of such behaviour were said to be a hoax, same cannot be said for this footage. It was given to the newspaper by a friend of the soldier who shot the film. This is a legal force in another country there to provide so called peace, they are not a terrorist army as some of you drew comparison with. This is the army of a country, the British army. I ask you what other incidents are going on besides this. My brother served there last year and said many then were aware of the existance of this footage recorded on a dvd camera. Other footage also exists. The full weight of the law must fall upon those involved and no cover up or fudge can or will be accepted. As I said this is members of a force charged with the task of providing protection to the people of Iraq.Where were the officers, involved ?

I think Divis it struck a raw nerve and possibly brought back memories that you could well have done without.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

I am not having a pop here at the British army, if it was the army of any other country I would be as vocal. Yes it did bring back memories. As to what we did in Ireland, we faced the courts, prison and loyalist death squads working from information provided by the British forces for our actions. As GUEST has rightly pointed out, this is a government backed force we seen here in action. Attacks such as these on young men result in them seeking revenge, and add to the ranks of those the British and American forces are there to deal with. Believe me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

If the boys had thrown a grenade that killed some soldiers - friends of those doing the beating - the soldiers would have opened fire, not just sunk the boot 'in the good old spirit of "fun"'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

This is what you are up against here Foolestroupe, the usual suspects try to invent justification.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:02 PM

DS

yes, I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM

Time will tell. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

As to what we did in Ireland, we faced the courts, prison and loyalist death squads working from information provided by the British forces for our actions.

And the question Divis is "What did you do?"
The same as the loyalist death squads, that's what.
Can you not see it man. You're just the same.
You're all just the same.
Justified in your own warped minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:49 PM

I fought for my country Guest. Like yourself here had to wear a mask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

I fought for my country Guest.

The justification they all give for the death and misery they bring. So did the idiots you fought against. They'd say the same.
And so it goes on, and on and on.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

Really shouldn't enter into subjects you know little about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:23 PM

I just thought to myself the other day
"We havent had a good irish thread for a while"


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:27 PM

Oh, I know you. I've known you for thousands of years.Bigoted, blind, hate filled, your best friend is death and your enemy is love.I'm just tired of having to share this poor planet with you and your kind. Life deserves better than the bitterness you feed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM

Great to get a laugh so late into the night. Thanks be to christ we didn't have to depend on the like of you within the ranks. Go try to beat down someone who can or will take you serious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM

Oh, let's feel sorry for the enemy.

Isn't that the hand-wringing liberal way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

Agreed Martin, Sun flower seeds and funny cigarette type.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM

The reason that so many vocal Americans hate 'liberals' is tha the USA is a country with a long Fascist (and funnily enough - anti-semetic!) history.

:-)
"Those who do not learn from history are condemmed to repeat it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM

There's nothing funny about anti-semitism, foolestroupe.

And the U.S. is nothing compared to what has and to a great degree, what still goes on in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:19 AM

Observer, yesterday, page 3 "Taken from a rooftop the footage is said to show troops engaged in a running battle with youths, who are seen throwing a greande which hits their compound".


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:08 AM

Thanks Richard. The Observer, that says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: polaitaly
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 AM

You know....for ten grown men equipped with weapons and boots to take four bare-feet fourteen or fifteen-years-old ( "four boys in their early teens" , said another newspaper, I don' remember wich) and beat them uncounscious with kiks and batons , don't seem to be....how can I say... very good .
pol


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:59 AM

Very true, Pol. Just reading in the Belfast Telegraph that video shows, "shows a grenade landing inside the compound while the black fumes of a fire just outside the perimeter blow through."

It goes on to say: "Youths hurling abuse and stones turn tail as a group of soldiers pursue them, grab four apparent youngsters and drag them into the compound. They are then seen to mete out a vicious attack. One Iraqi is heard to plead for mercy as he is punched in the head and back before being hit with a baton. Another is seen to squirm in pain as he is beaten with a baton, a third struggles as he receives similar treatment. A fourth prisoner arches in agony as a soldier, said to be a sergeant, kicks him hard between the legs."

I was talking to my boss about this whole thing, and she said something very relevant. During times when soldiers are under such stress, they do things that they would normally be ashamed to do in their lives. But, when they, or we, release our footing on higher ground, we become just like those we despise. And that is just not worth it.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

Sorry Richard - but I need a bit more than this.

It maybe that the video I have seen on TV is not the complete version - but there is nothing on the video shown on TV so far that I have seen that showed a grenade landing or evidence of a grenade having landed in that compound.

I feel had there been then a) it would have been included and b) it would still not justify a group of squaddies beating up teenagers - but might make it more understandable.

The point is surely that the soldiers were taking the law into their own hands. Were these the teenagers that had thrown the grenade - or as is more likely from the footage I have seen and other newspapers seem to indicate, were these the ones who did not run fast enough? What was the final result? Were they prosecuted? What was the result of the trial? Has the Army totally abandoned the rule of law? When was this approved in Parliament?

As far as I am aware these kids were throwing stones and no grenades were shown being thrown. Besides, the evident glee in the commentator's voice I think sums up the attitude. Was this filmed for military purposes? Again I suspect not. It was probably shown for entertainment in mess halls. Was the whole process done deliberately? Or was it accidental that the video camera was there, and those teenagers were beaten up in front of it? I really would like to know the full facts.

The reason I do not approve of innocent people being attacked like this is that one day it might be me.

Having got that rant over - the true villains are Bliar (spelling deliberate) and Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM

Maybe this fazction of the ENEMY deserved what they got.

The real danger are when that kind of attitude becomes acceptable among the political and military command structure, as happens only too often. And among ordinary people.   

It's probably inevitable in a military occupation that there will be some people get drawn into brutality against their normal nature, or in some cases take advantage of the chance to act as the thugs.

What isn't inevitable is that this kind of behaviour will be used as a technique of occupation, or will be encouraged by comments such as "the ENEMY deserved what they got."

The main target of any investigation should be identifying any indications that people higher up the chain of command colluded in this. And dealing with them very severely indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

I understand that there was a grenade thrown - but I did not see it on the video show. Has anyone else?

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM

Incidents like these create a recruitment ground. Officers had to be present. No grenade smoke on the video I saw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

Whether someone had chucked a grenade or not is irrelevant. There is no reason to think that any of the boys being kicked around had thrown it.

And if they had picked up a genuine insurgent rather than a random teenager, that's not an acceptible way to treat a prisoner of war.

As haas been pointed out in press covereage here, these soldiers have increased the danger to other soldiers, and to other people as well. They were, paradoxically enough, "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM

These acts should not be condoned, regardless of what triggered the soldiers to come outside of their compound. I do think, though, that it is important to try to understand why they did this so that better programs can be developed to teach soldiers to deal with stress positively. But, I'm sure some of those soldiers caught on tape were acting not out of stress and fatigue and anger, but showing part of their nature, and that's a scary thought.

Colonel Tim Collins (Royal Irish Regiment - a favorite to some of you on this thread I know!) gave a speech in 2003 for a group of soldiers. Just wanted to include a bit of it here...it's actually quite sad to read his words and then see what some troops are doing and have done.

"We go to liberate, not to conquer.
We will not fly our flags in their country
We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own.
Show respect for them...

Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham.
Tread lightly there.

You will see things that no man could pay to see
-- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis.
You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.

Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country.
Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you."

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Den
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM

Who here is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident. These guys' only crime was that they were caught on video.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Very true, unfortunately...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:40 PM

Sweeney, you said

I am not having a pop here at the British army, if it was the army of any other country I would be as vocal.

The video shows a lapse in discipline. Shameful.
How did PIRA treat it's prisoners Sweeney? It was disgraceful how those young Arabs were treated, but not life threatening or crippling.
Any of your prisoners would have gladly changed places with them.

The bursting grenade is shown on a sequence clearly shot just before the rest of the piece. Any other army would have returned fire. The US army in Iraq has done so frequently with less provocation.

The British squadies went out without guns! Again, what other army shows such restraint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

"The video shows a lapse in discipline."

That is exactly what neeeds to be determined. Discipline does break down under stress.

However there have been many occasions in many armies, including the British Army, when brutality towards captives and civilians has been connived at or encouraged by senior officers, and in such cases it is common practice to seek to present the events as merely "a lapse in discipline". "Abu Ghraib" was such a case, many (most?) people believe.

The important thing is to be certain that this latest incident is not another case of that happening. It is not something which can be taken as read, in Iraq anymore than in past conflicts in, for example, Northern Ireland or Kenya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:26 PM

Any attempt to justify this incident is an insult to those members of the military, and of the emergency services who operate within the law despite extreme provocation.

Soldiers and more particularly police officers generally act with a measure of restraint, using only such force as is necessary to subdue.

If the participants in this brutal attack are allowed to get away with it, how can we ask a police officer to bring in a cop killer, rather than shooting him in cold blood.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and IMHO this was way past that place, and the fact that our very own anti Muslim bigot has tried, convicted and sentenced thes kids on the sole evidence that the troops were kicking the shit out of them rather neatly makes my point.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:37 PM

Whatever the other facts of the situation it is not appropriate to seek to discuss the actions (or rather reactions) of the soldiers in isolation from the things to which they were reacting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:50 PM

Whatever the other facts of the situation it is not appropriate to seek to discuss the actions (or rather reactions) of the soldiers in isolation from the things to which they were reacting.

I disagree. Regardless of what they were or weren't reacting to, their behaviour was wrong. I doubt that is how they were trained to restrain anyone barefoot and unarmed. Gratuitous thuggery in glorious technicolour that now endangers their colleagues lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:01 PM

Richard, you, of all people, are surely not saying that there can be justification for breaking the law, especially international law?

Pleas of provocation, as I understand it, may mitigate,, but not justify.

Also, it cuts both ways. Only in the somewhat suspect ratiocination of our friend MG have those youths been shown to have been responsible for anything that led to their being beaten.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

Anyone old enuf to remember this guy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Just the reply I would expect from you Keith, Everyone again please notice how he has twisted it around to involve the Provo's. What has this to do with the Provisionals Keith please answer. No the Provisionals as you are fully aware did not hold prisoners, there were no Provisional internment camps here in the North of Ireland. Your government owned them all. And please don't forget your British Troops were found guilty of torture of Irish prisoners here too.

You said The British squadies went out without guns! Again, what other army shows such restraint?

That was nice of them, having been battered more than once by YOUR SQUADIES as you so nicely call them, let me tell you, after five hours of it, you would welcome being shot.

For Christsake man, get your mind back onto the thread and as I said to you before, our war is over. Can you not accept that.

Here it is just for you once again Keith.

We regret the loss of live during the campaign here in the North of Ireland. All lives, without except.
All units of the Provisional IRA have been stood down.
All weapons were sawn, crushed and buried in concrete.
There is no more bombings, shootings or attacks carried out by any member.
Sorry Keith for everything, sorry Keith for what the provisionals did.
Sorry Keith we had to fight for basic human rights for our people.
Sorry Keith we fought against your Squadies.
In whole sorry for everything.

Now Keith what did I miss ?

Maybe next time you visit a thread, be it how to knit a jumper or someone thinking of an attack on Iran. Think long and hard how you can blame the Provo's.

Expected more from you, others may not, but I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:29 PM

Guys: I know no one wants a third-in on a fight, but you need one. I don't think either (any) of the groups involved in "the troubles" behaved like gentlemen. It was nasty, ugly business from the South, the North, the SAS. Put your fists away, lads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:36 PM

Sorry Peace, but check this guys attacks on the Irish, every chance he's in here with the boot, funny that in with the boot! By Christ I will stand and defend the Provisionals to my death. What can he defend ? As you can see he found defence for their actions on this video, and swung it around to the Provo's. If he wants to start me he is going the right way about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:48 PM

Really don't know why there is so much talk about it, saw them and felt it often enough myself during their invasion of the North of Ireland.

Divis I hate to rain on your parade but your opening post shows who brought the provos into the discussion. Your agenda is transparent. Let it go. Move on. Everyone else has managed to.

And yes the video was appalling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:53 PM

Occupations aren't good for anybody. They bring out the very worst in both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM

Guest where did I bring the Provisionals into the discussion ? As to the agenda you speak of, don't guess my mind please. Yes I did say saw it and felt it, because I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

Ignore him Divis ... he'll just spin and spin ... some you can have a debate with and there's others just out there looking for a scrap regardless of the issue.

Peace ... that is Leutenant Calley .... now a owner of a jewelry stroe somewhere in Mississippi.

What ever happened to his C.O. Captain Medina?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM

And Guest, the name I use is my surname, no need to hide here. Regarding the psychology of thought, this is actually my profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:05 PM

By Christ I will stand and defend the Provisionals to my death.

There's no Christ in your stand.
The death was the death of the innocent killed by fanatics like yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

You are right of course sIx, just attacks on the Provisionals here come without understanding of actually what we lived over here. This guy talks as if his army were angels. He has no conception of what we were put thought as people. His dislike of the Irish is born from newspaper articles. What I said to him on above post is not for the first time. How many times does he require the word sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:10 PM

Ernest Lou Medina left the army to move to Menomee, Michigan, where he worked in a helicopter manufacturing company owned by the defense lawyer in his court-martial, F. Lee Bailey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

GUEST, OR Coward as I think the name somehow fits better, don't try to talk about things you don't understand. Yes Proud of every soldier in the ranks of the PIRA. Oh dear you seem somewhat nasty in that little remark, I am so so upset. What you have to offer means so much, it's simply so important !


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM

I rather suspect that the main focus of the investigation will be on how something like that could have been video-taped and emerged into the public domain, rather on how it could happen in the first place. And the follow-up will be primarily aimed at stopping things like that getting out in future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM

I believe I'm sensing sarcasm in the air...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:21 PM

I rather suspect that the main focus of the investigation will be on how something like that could have been video-taped and emerged into the public domain, rather than on how it could happen in the first place. And the follow-up will be primarily aimed at stopping things like that getting out in future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:27 PM

Okay Divis. Apologies and sorry accepted. Now I'll try to relay it to my dead friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:58 PM

Peace ... What I found interesting in Captain Ernest Lou Medina was that he was an American Native .. Navajo, if my memory serves well.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Den
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:14 PM

I think you are very right McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM

Way too much focus on supporting the ENEMY.

No matter how much the discipline, faced with death by grenade, asses need to be kicked.

That is what you do with the ENEMY.

I can't believe how some whackos here feel we need to be ever so polite to them. I wouldn't want you fighting for any cause I believe in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM

If you're a soldier in an occupying army you try to prevent them from doing harm, and you try to capture them; if need be you kill them. There's no point in kicking them about, and anyone who wastes their time and energy doing that kind of crap is just making it more dangerous for everyone, and helping the other side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:00 AM

Unfortunately terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters call them what you will, DO USE not only 'teenagers' but children to advance their cause, they are normally used as 'bait', they are normally used to create an incident, they are used to attract police, emergency services and security forces. The terrorist organisations in Sri Lanka, Palestine and Northern Ireland, all used children and teenagers in this way, so why should those in Iraq be any different, particularly those who might have done a bit of reading and are facing British Troops.

In Iraq the publishing/reporting of this incident will not affect anything, particularly not down in Basra, where this incident happened nearly two years ago. If anyone thinks that none of those Iraqi 'teenagers' complained or told anyone about what happened to them at the time, then they are being very niave. The 'whistleblower' as he is termed in the press did not bring this into the light of day for any high moral purpose, they sold it to the "News of the World" to make money, had the former been the case a copy of the recording should have gone to the Military Police long before now. By the way I do not believe that this is the sort of thing that would "shown in messes" anywhere.

What happened immediately before what is seen on this amateur video is important in terms of context. For a full understanding I also believe it will prove equally as important to study the overall situation in the area both before and after the incident shown.

From what I have seen, the Troops were not armed, they were carrying batons and shields, not guns. We have heard reported that the incident occurred during a riot in which a grenade had been thrown and that British Troops had been stoned.

SOP would be for nominated personnel present to observe the crowd, others would record in writing, or visually, the behavior of the crowd and how incidents develop. The reason for doing this is to identify those responsible for aggitating the crowd. Once identified, a snatch squad is organised and you go out into the crowd and grab them, that squad does not go out carrying arms, they are equipped as those shown in the video (Batons and Shields) So was this a snatch squad? I would tend to think that it was.

McGrath of Harlow, in his post of 13 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM says:

"you try to prevent them from doing harm" - now exactly how you do that in the middle of a riot situation, where you, as the soldier, are going to be heavily outnumbered, is something that maybe MGOH can explain but I cannot. One thing I can say is that in responding to that sort of situation you always deploy in such a way that those rioting know that they have a clear route to disperse, therefore maybe the prevention from doing harm comes in the form of letting them know that they can run away if necessary, it prevents escallation of the situation.

"you try to capture them" - I would agree with respect to the ring-leaders, the remainder, what are you going to charge them with? What are you going to do with them? Who are you going to use to look after them? Where are you going hold them? Sorry MGOH a pointless exercise, they will be back out on the streets rioting in next to no time, unless of course you are advocating indefinite internment for all and sundary.

"if need be you kill them" - Really, in the sort of situation that led to this incident definitely not, and there are very clear rules of engagement before anyone fires and when that happens first shots above the heads of the crowd, then deliberate fire at identified aggitators.

"There's no point in kicking them about, and anyone who wastes their time and energy doing that kind of crap is just making it more dangerous for everyone, and helping the other side." Well actually MGOH that is not exactly true, it is often extremely effective. Anyone ever heard anyone recall the "Good old days, when there was little or no street crime, where if some young tear-away was causing trouble the local beat bobby just took him aside and gave him a clip around the ear to straighten him out" Now the clip around the ear was generally a damn site more than that, whoever was causing the trouble got a bloody good hiding and it was clearly understood that if the behaviour did not alter then the dose would be repeated - it was called rough justice and it tended to work.

Latest is that a Corporal in the Light Infantry has been arrested and the matter is under investigation. I only ever had dealings with the SIB once, they do tend to be very thorough, unlike MGOH, I have no grounds for doubting that they will pursue this diligently and to the full letter of the law, but only time will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:19 AM

"YES!!!! YOU'RE GOIN' TO GE' I' OHHHHH YEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!! OH PLEASE DON'T HURT ME"

You're all scum, Bill...

The very actions that gave birth to the Provisionals, Teribus, and ye're doing it all over again.
You and the rest of the Bushite excrement.

Anybody listening to 'The World Today' on BBC Radio 4 this morning???
... any early birds in the house today???

I'm sure the reportage will come around again, but 'apparently' the British Army ATTRACTS (... get this folks...) "Rambo Types"

Sure I could have told you that.

What d'ya reckon, Terri-boy...
You a "Rambo Type"???

Oh no... Teribus puts his charges into a darkened room, takes their watches off, leaves them for a half an hour (to contemplate their 'sorry state', no doubt, and then calmly talks to them.

Ain't that right, Bill?

Guess that's what they're at in Gitmo, eh?

As for the rest of the Doubting Tommys among you (Doubting Yanks can be freely included here as well...).....

Do you know how naive you really are????

I, and I'm sure the rest of us who experienced your version of Law & Order and 'Hearts & Minds' can predict the future of the 'Allies' in an area 10 billion times the size of the sickly six...

".... the behavior of the crowd and how incidents develop."

What's this, Teribus?
Turning American, are you?

Whatever about two wrongs not making a right, I can tell you from experience that one wrong makes even less of a right.

As for Gibson... Got 3 words for you, ol buddy
'Nineteen Sixty-nine Borders'

Piss off back to them and then talk about World Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:25 AM

'Nineteen Sixty-seven Borders'

(... had a strange vision of Teribus & Gibson giving each other a blow-job....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM

Divis Sweeney,
I responded as I did because an ex volunteer of PIRA is in no position to pontificate on how other organisations treat prisoners.

Had you used one of your Guest aliases I would have let it go, but such hypocrisy is hard to stomach.

Yes, the British had to stop using white noise when it was defined as torture.

Were you personally involved in interrogating prisoners Sweeney?
The usual strategy was to torture them until they were ready to confess, film their confession and then shoot them.
Is that not why the bodies were left covered in burns, or were they just incredibly careless with their last cigarette?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:54 AM

.... we're talking about the Brits in Iraq, Keith...

Why are you (and the rest) crying over spilt milk?

Ye are ripping the cow's tit wide open over there, and all you want to relive and complain about old defeats.

HAA-LLO!

Wake up, Keith.
It's Tuesday


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:10 AM

... and may the light and warmth of a peaceful valentines day be with you all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:15 AM

... except in Chicago...


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:16 AM

And may you never lose your lover overnight


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:18 AM

Keith please prove I tortured anyone. Please also provide evidence I have ever come onto this site using Guest aliases. Stop making silly remarks unless you can back them up. Only makes you look foolish.

Teribus, saw British troops gather children on many occasions as cover walking through certain areas of Belfast with the lure of sweets. You forgot to add that one.

As to your remark about torture using cigarettes, glad you brought that up.
In 1976 I won my case against the British government for ill treatment and wrongful arrest, and yes you guessed it, the scars from the cigarette burns inflicted by British soldiers on my right arm and the photographic evidence along with their admission won my case.

This thread is about British soldiers kicking lumps out of children in Iraq. You have yet again failed to bring anything to the thread, so try either the one on babies names or bird watching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:25 AM

making accusations that a mudcat member was involved in torture without proof is about as low as anyone can go. I an ashamed to say you are British Keith. So sad. You are not doing us any favours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:31 AM

I just aked if you had been a torturer Sweeney.
I notice that you do not say that you were not.
Supppose your CO had ordered you to. Would you have refused?
Did you ever speak out against IRA torture?
Did anyone ever win compensation from your mob for ill treatment?

Tir, this thread is about Iraq but how can we not comment when it is a proud ex member of a notorious user of torture who is professing outrage at an offence trivial in comparison?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM

"troops gather children on many occasions as cover ... with the lure of sweets"

Hmmm, such TV footage was always meant to show just how nice the troops were...

Makes me think sometimes, does Mudcat...


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM

Guest, aking a question is not an accusation.

The question is not unreassoble because Divis Sweeney has boasted on this site of his status as a PIRA volunteer, and they did routinely use physical torture and execution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: David C. Carter
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:42 AM

Nice Thought Foolestroupe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:45 AM

Eye Rack, Keith.

The Resistance has disbanded as far as the security of your country is concerned.

We can draw attention to British torture around the World if we so desire.

Your Country's human rights record is atrocious by anyone's standards, and still you concentrate on what should be (for you) a long-forgotten war.

The actions of your soldiers has added about 10 million barrels of oil to an already blazing inferno.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, Keith.

...You also have your '"La la la, I'm not listening" headphones' on again, 'aven't yew?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:26 AM

Keith why are you making up these slurs against me ?
Never once did I say I tortured anyone. Never once did I make a boast of my status within the PIRA. I am a Republican and proud of it. All I can guess is you lack something within yourself and never made a committment to anything in your life that involved taking a stand. That shortfall can visit a man in his later years.

So here is your answer Keith, no I never tortured anyone in my life.

Regarding your remark about a C O. The British Army have C O'S. The Provisional IRA had O C'S.The difference being they feel no man has a right to make an order over another man. Officer in command. So within that is your answer.

So was the British soldiers right to kick and punch these Iraqi youth's then ? or is that going back to a question you try so hard not to reply to.

Really have shown yourself up here for what you are.
Still awaiting the proof of me being involved in torture or arriving on the site under another name as you so clearly stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:32 AM

"...and that British Troops had been stoned."
Teribus: 14 Feb 06 - 01:00 AM

I too hope the practice of drug abuse in the Armed Forces is highlighted as well, Teribus, old skin.

"In Iraq the publishing/reporting of this incident will not affect anything, particularly not down in Basra, where this incident happened nearly two years ago"
Teribus: 14 Feb 06 - 01:00 AM

You're really full of it today, Teribus, aren't you?
"Camberwick Green", I am tempted to utter.

Don't forget the little matter of a bunch of cartoons, and a shit-load of water having passed under the bridge.

Stop the damage limitation, Teribus.

It makes you look foolish


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:37 AM

Sweeney,
Why are you making up slurs against me, by saying I made up slurs against you?
I only asked the question, and have already justified the asking of it.

Are you now saying that you never were a volunteer in PIRA????


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:40 AM

...and no, I do not think it was right for those youths to be beaten, as I said in my very first post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:42 AM

Keith how many times do you require this guy to say sorry to you ??????????

Doubt I would be as tolerant as he is if you were attacking me with such remarks.

You are clearly an anti Irish bigot, probably vote BNP and proud of the actions of your soldiers actions serving abroad. Were you a soldier ?

Read on the web as I just did. The I.R.A. ended their war last July and now they don't bomb or shoot people. What do you want here, all past I.R.A. men and woman to receive a public hanging ?

Go visit one of your BNP sites and relive your glorious history there.

No one likes listening to boring people who trawl through the past to seek revenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:44 AM

Keith?

Tell me this.

Can you justify the example of cruelty shown by The British Army?
Are you proud to have witnessed such footage?

(... you are British, aren't you...?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:49 AM

... from Keith's 1st post...:

"The video shows a lapse in discipline. Shameful."

How do you know it was a lapse in discipline it showed, Keith?
Is 'shameful' the height of it?

Because it is as much as you've said on the subject so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:52 AM

How worried are you, Keith, that this is not an 'isolated incident', for example?

... oh, I've got loads of questions for you, me bhoy...

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:53 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM

The question is not unreassoble because Divis Sweeney has boasted on this site of his status as a PIRA volunteer.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM

Divis Sweeney,
I responded as I did because an ex volunteer of PIRA is in no position to pontificate on how other organisations treat prisoners.

Had you used one of your Guest aliases I would have let it go, but such hypocrisy is hard to stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:31 AM

I just aked if you had been a torturer Sweeney.
I notice that you do not say that you were not.

Keith Please state your reason for looking to know what role I took or didn't take during the occupation of my country by your army.
The reason will need to be a valid one and have some bearing to the title of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM

What is blame, and how is it accreditted?

(... note that I said 'IS' and not 'SHOULD BE'...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:58 AM

Come on, Keith.. chop-chop, we're waiting....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Pandora
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:01 AM

Oh no..., please don't open me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:01 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:

Had you used one of your Guest aliases I would have let it go.

Please clarify this Keith. Strong remark to make against a member.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Sisyphus
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:03 AM

I hope they invent the wheel soon....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:04 AM

Doubt he will answer GUEST, he just fired these remarks and then tryes to bite then back with some foolish reponse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,The Grand Old Duke of York
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:09 AM

Where are we now, chaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:09 AM

100 is the new 100


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:03 AM

Tir,
In my first post I not only described the incident as a shameful lapse of discipline, I also said,
"It was disgraceful how those young Arabs were treated"

Sweeney, your previous role was relevant because you are decrying the mistreatment of some prisoners now , but were a member of an organisation that did much worse in the past.
That is hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM

...and Sweeney,
because I know your sense of humour I am very sure Guest 06.03 is you.
Can A Joe Clone confirm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:19 AM

Sorry, I meant Guest 06.01


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:03 AM

Sweeney, your previous role was relevant because you are decrying the mistreatment of some prisoners now , but were a member of an organisation that did much worse in the past.

Prove the above please.


From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM

...and Sweeney,
because I know your sense of humour I am very sure Guest 06.03 is you.
Can A Joe Clone confirm?

Hope someone can confirm this for you.
Sorry Keith wasn't me.
A little short on a Sense of humour today.

Besides always enter under my name, please again prove I don't.
This thing about entering under another name seems to come up a lot with you, do you do it ? Only asking, not stating, doubt you would stoop to this.

Also please state here on request your proof of my membership of the Provisional Irish Republican Army at any time between December 1969 and July 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:29 AM

'Not only', indeed?

I never was a member of a resistance movement, nor have I ever had the slur of 'insurgent' slung at me Keith.

I like the vast majority of clear-headed people everywhere, am heavily decrying the continuing total disregard for Human and Civil Rights shown by The British Army in Iraq, just like they have disregarded them elsewhere in the World.

'Shameful' is a little stronger than 'disgraceful', Keith..., but only just.

I was correct when I pointed out to you that 'Shameful' was the height of it.

Are you not horrified?
Not least at the guy who filmed the whole thing and did the 'Harry Carpenter' on it?
The headbutt?

The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?
The abuse of children, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:37 AM

it was called rough justice and it tended to work.

Whether it works in a civilian law-and-order context is questionable but arguable. But in the situation of a foreign occupation and civil disturbance/insurgency all the evidence is that the main effect is to recruit for the other side, and to generate communal support for the people involved.

The use of force while capturing people, or even when dispersing them in some situations, can hardly be avoided, and I haven't suggested that it can be - but it is not the same thing as beating up prisoners who have been captured. I think most soldiers recognise and value that distinction, and would hope that it would be observed if they ever get taken prisoner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Keith's Compassionate Bones
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:38 AM

Emmmmm..... One.... ...two....

... no, forget that, let's start over again


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:40 AM

The pleasure sadists get is eloquently presented by the running dialog in this footage.

Sick isn't it, but this is how sadists feel and think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:49 AM

Donuel, So grateful for your analyzation. Your words of wisdom will no doubt bring it to an conclusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:59 AM

Woke up to a beautiful Valentine's day in Chucago.

world class city and a great place for music, love, and great sports teams.

Also some fabulous guitar stores.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:01 AM

... and onto what Sadists do when they have Carte Blanche to do what the hell they like in the name of Freedom and Democracy....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:17 AM

Sweeney,

On 3rd October in message 1574703 you wrote,

"

Our victory speaks for its self. We disbanded volunteerily in July05. The same can't be said for the B Specials, U.D.R. and The R.U.C. Your British government disbanded them for their actions. We will be remembered by historians as hero's one and all. "

There was also your post of 18thSeptember (1566239) where you spoke of having shot people to death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:25 AM

You have used the word 'We' when referring to your troops in the past, Keith.

Are you in active service?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:30 AM

When are you going to discuss the repurcussions of this outrage of physical, and possibly sexual mistreatment of children, Keith?

You may recall a kick from one of the soldiers 'appearing' to culminate in contact with the genitals of one of the alleged assaultees....

Any comment on this, Keith?

(outside of shameful, etc., that is...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:38 AM

Tir,
I would be amazed if I have ever spoken of troops as we.
Are you sure?

I have used the words shameful and disgraceful to express my opinion of this incident.
I am sorry if they are too hard for you to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM

You will need to read that post again Keith, never shot anyone to death, is your computer playing up ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:07 AM

Keith, you would be amazed if I told you that the sun rises in the East in the mornings.

... and I'm afraid 'shameful' and 'disgraceful' are far too easy for me to understand....

... and to throw back at you, as well.

You're brave defenders of Freedom of Speech are in a Sisyphus-like situation; constantly pushing that boulder up the hill.
Your battle-plan seems to have been drawn up by The Grand Old Duke himself, and 'shameful' and 'disgraceful' will not make the introspection that is needed here, any easier Keith.

You have lost all right to complain, or criticise in loudly descriptive terms, about the actions of any person, when the most you will say about your own is 'disgraceful' and 'shameful'

You have to be one of the biggest hypocrites on this Forum.

With the stiffest upper lip to match....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:25 AM

Post in question from Divis Sweeney


"
Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish ! "


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:16 AM

This thread is sickening. Started by a self confessed thug bemoaning other thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:20 AM

Come on keith, where does it say there about taking life ?????
Smacking has so many meanings, looks like you took the wrong one.
Really is that the best you can do ?

Guest, simple answer stay of this thread if it annoys you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:40 AM

People were shot dead by snipers on the Divis flats roof during the troubles.
What should we take your words to mean Sweeney?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM

So.... what was that about the Brits not being Anti-Irish, Keith?

Your blatant evasion of the whole issue to concentrate on yet more non-relative speculation, is a trademark of your posts Keith.

What would you take the actions of your soldiers (they are yours, aren't they???..., they're certainly not mine....) in that video to mean, Keith.

This is the topic under discussion.

Why do you post to threads you have no interest in discussing, in even the shallowest of terms.

I shall start a thread soon I think, to discuss how much the collective guilt complex of The British Citizen pertains to their sense of denial.

Keith will, no doubt be discussing the price of cabbage again, and how that pertains to the McCartney killing


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:56 AM

(they are yours, aren't they???..., they're certainly not mine....)

of course they're not yours, they're wearing uniforms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:04 AM

I have already explained why I felt Sweeney was not in a position to point the finger at soldiers' behaviour.

If you want thread creep, this is what followed one Divis "smacking"

Only after US president Bill Clinton intervened did the IRA admit its Belfast Brigade was responsible for Jean McConville's disappearance.
The Provos had always lied that she was an informer who had run off with a British soldier and was in England.
Helen's real 'crime', her family believe, was to tend a dying soldier hit by an IRA sniper's bullet outside her home in the Divis Flats complex in the Lower Fails.
A neighbour said she put a pillow under his head (the soldier's) and whispered a prayer in his ear.
That act of Christian charity was as good as a death sentence. On December 6, 1972, a gang of thugs sent a false message into a social club where she was playing bingo that Helen had been knocked down by a car.
Jean, who was barely 5ft, was lured outside, pounced on by IRA hoodlums and interrogated, abused and battered. Police later found her wandering barefoot on a bitterly cold night.
The following night she suffered another dose of mob rule. A gang of 12 masked Provos — eight men and four women - burst into her home and dragged her from the bathroom.
She was bundled screaming into a car as some of her children watched. It was the last picture of their mum they have in their minds. The terrified mother, still in pain from the previous night's savagery, was tortured and finally forced to kneel. She was murdered with a single shot.
But a new century was to dawn before the family were able to begin properly mourning her loss
After Jean's abduction, her mother Mary moved in to care for the children over that Christmas, They were later split up and sent to foster homes.
Then in January, 1973, a man delivered Jean's purse to her home with three of her four rings. Police said it was the Provo message that she would not be seen again. It is believed that some Provos thought Jean had suffered enough. Four of her 14 children had died when they were young. She had lost her builder husband Arthur to cancer 10 months before she disappeared.
The Protestant girl from east Belfast was 20 when she met Arthur, a Catholic former British army soldier. She changed her religion. Members of the McConville family know the identities of several of the gang of 12 that dragged their mother away.
They pulled off their balaclavas as the children watched the terrible scene Helen said: "I know at least three of those in the gang who abducted my mother. One lived nearby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM

Happy Valentine's Day!

Now...I recognize the fact that it's difficult to know soldiers of your country have done terrible acts while serving. But, it's important to take those acts, take those soldiers and find out what the hell is going on in your Armed Forces! Is this something that is typical of a British soldier but just not usually caught on film? I can't answer that question because I'm not a British soldier. But, as an American soldier I know that it sickens me to know that people that have gone through the same training that I have, that have served with the same people I have served with, are guilty of torture and abuse.

That's what this is all about, isn't it? Finding out what the hell is going on and stopping it? I don't want my soldiers to become like those I've seen too often in pictures and on film doing to prisoners and normal civilians what we are trained NOT to do. It makes all of us look like we are sadistic men and women, when we're not. I'm an extremely nice person (by my own standards, admittedly :)) and the men and women I serve with are extraordinary people. And if this is true of the British troops you know and serve(d)with, then it is so important to realize that even though this film is 2 years old, this is a current and REAL problem in the military. And it needs to be addressed immediately. Not just through the arrest of one man, but through thorough evaluation of the Armed Forces as a whole.

By the way, so happy to see you back, Tir!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM

revenge   

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?ID=70


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:09 AM

I don't have soldiers, Guest....

Do uniforms make the man, in your opinion?

Are uniforms, uniform?

Is Keith is really Shambles in disguise?

Are the British Army abusers of those Human & Civil Rights they waffle on so much about being all gung-ho in favour of?

One more time you fail to see the writing on the wall, Oh Brits!

The Empire was lost that way.

The only thing you have left is your homes, and still you rattle on about 'whataboutery'

What about the video, Folks?

The law forbidding White Noise as an method of psychological torture obviously hasn't filtered through to some of you...

Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers
Child abusers


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:18 AM

We are trying to avoid as much thread drift as possible, Keith.
You obviously aren't

Tell me why you chose those words and not stronger epithets?
It is not that you are incapable of laying stronger ones down...

How much of what you call thread creep is you avoiding to discuss this?

And how much isn't?

Nice one Epona.
Will let loose the carrier pigeon later on this week... ;)

Keith?
And the rest of you folks that are disgusted by the blatant breach of Human & Civil rights.

How many scumbags join the British Army nowadays purely to have a go....?

More than in my day, I'm sure....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:31 AM

Epona,
I aree with your words.
The video of the beating did remind me of those sequences of US police officers beating up young black men.
And as a US soldier, I expect that you are ashamed of some of the disclosures of their behaviour too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM

You are right Keith people were shot in Divis flats.

Michael Marley 17 Years, Dunville Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead on 24 November 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets at Divis Flats.

During a military operation Michael left a friends flat to go to a shop in the complex. He was returning from the shop along Whitehall Row, on the fourth floor of the complex, when he spotted a number of British soldiers approaching him.Moments later several shots rang out and Michael was killed instantly. British Army admitted he was innocent and was not involved in any incident. Oh and they said sorry.

Next history lesson when your ready. Thanks for bringing this up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:37 AM

Next spelling lesson when YOUR ready.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

If we were to catalog the horrors perpetrated by the South, North, England (SAS), and all the other PATRIOTS, we'd be here a long fu#kin' time. It seems to be like a bad dream that will not go away. And we'll be fighting the same fuckin' war in ten years--and a hundred years--fighting the same fucking war until people put the monster to sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM

Oh please GUEST Yes Yes Yes ! Can you spell your own name first !


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:57 AM

Sorry, I have to remain in the shadows. I'm hoping one day to be hailed as a hero for the things I do here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:12 PM

Post in question from Divis Sweeney


"
Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish ! "


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

I wouldn't say ashamed, Keith. That seems too mild. At first, with the police incidents, I was shocked because I couldn't understand why the police would treat someone like they did. My father was a police officer before he became a lawyer (keep the jokes down!). The police I had grown up around weren't the men I saw on tv. It was really difficult for me to wrap my head around at first. But then, that shock turned to horror as I realized how those charged with upholding the law can twist it based on how sour their own hearts are.

And, I am horrified by what a few men and women that serve in the US military are doing and have done, partly because it reflects on all of us servicemembers, but mostly because human beings should never be treated in such a manner. So, when I hear about and see the things servicemembers from other countries are doing or have done to Iraqi youths, I am brought back to when I first realized that those charged with upholding the law can just as easily become the perpetrators. As I can't comment on it as a British soldier, I comment on it as a fellow human being. It is inexcusable, horrific, and should never be characterized by words such as "shameful." It is much more than shameful. I wish I had a word powerful enough to describe how I feel to know that soldiers have become the same evil they were so eager to stop when they first put on that uniform.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM

Hope that helps, Keith.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:23 PM

Divis seems to getting rather coy:

"Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish !"

Your words Divis - Correct?

Care to explain? How do you smack from the roof of a high rise bolck of flats Divis? Hit somebody so that they fall over the edge? What with? Your fist? Baseball bat? 4x4? Or were hitting something already at ground level, after all the use of of the term smacking does tend to suggest that you hit someone.

Odd thing is that if you took that line of dialogue and edited it onto the audio track of the tape that this thread is about it would almost be perfectly in place - even down to the exact same gloating bravado.

PIRA used to carry out punishments then when the victims family called the emergency services, Divis and the rest of the heroes got the local kids, 12 to 14 year olds normally, to attack the crews. Bit of a game for them. It was almost like a league - you started off on stones and rocks to build up your strength and develop your aim, then progressed to petrol bombs and nail bombs. That then attracted the Police or the Security Forces. The someone would do a bit of smacking, of the type where they don't bounce back, just as Divis described it. It didn't even bother them if it was the kids they hit (no propaganda, no lie, that is by their own admission)

No I will wait for the completion of the investigation, but there is one silver lining on the edge of this that I believe the British Troops in Basra and the British Government should take full advantage of, but that too remains to be seen.

Perhaps while Divis and his cohorts of the 20ft containers are busy tapping away at their keyboards they can explain why, while in Strasbourg complaining about Human Rights abuses and getting British Treatment defined as torture, the body of Captain R. Nirac will never be found, or at least not found until his flesh has been completely rotted away - He was tortured to death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:28 PM

Main claim to fame being avoiding the issue.

And the last time I looked it wasn't a spelling site, neither....
.. note the way Keith's 'aree' wasn't referred to....

Anyone going to slam their Army much as they try to slam the former Irish Republican Army?

And if not, why not?

For the same reason you didn't pull Keith up on his typo, I'd guess, Guest.

It is a condition indicative to the situation we have now; not addressing the issue, being ashamed to feel ashamed.

None of you Brit-types have said anything more than 'shameful' about this.

'Shameful' is when your football team doesn't make it to the last 8 of the World Cup.
(assuming, of course it is not Argentina or Germany that see you off)

Then it would be 'disgraceful'

Seriously, though... how much more chance is there now of more suicide attacks in London as a result of all of this?

What use will any knowledge of the Divis Flats do you then, Keith?

The IRA never suicide bombed, remember, folks..., and the largest kill ever made in England was carried out by YOUR OWN CITIZENS!!!

Your own citizens, Ladies & Gentlemen. In a pre-9/11 British society, these people created no national security threat at all.

What's the chances of a chemical attack this time, do you all collectively think?

Anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM

How you rejoice in tragedy, Tír Chonaillm! And you are damned to do so for the rest of your life. In English, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:38 PM

And Tir, here I thought you also spoke Irish but were kind enough to write everything out in English for those of us who don't! :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:48 PM

Jesus Christ! It's a bit frigging rich when PIRA starts coming the humanitarian. Having seen first-hand some the the beatings that the Provos dished out where the victim was allowed to live (let alone the sorry messes they made of people who weren't given that luxury), I don't think any Provo apologist has got a leg to stand on in this argument.
Sure, British soldiers have slapped people around. They're not supposed to; in fact they most definitely should not do it, but they do.
They do it because the British Army knows that punishment beatings are a very effective tactical weapon if used against the ringleaders of a rioting crowd. I agree that the Light Infantry guys were wrong, at least in the wider context of their representation of this country, but how can they be expected to employ restraint when their country has sent them to do the job they have, against the wishes of such a large proportion of the Iraqi population? They are after all on the receiving end of their objections on a daily basis.
Also, in the absence of any other effective restraint or deterrent (witness the current rules of engagement and dress advice to British troops) then they had little or no choice in my opinion. Their error was in getting caught on video. No-one was killed and a handful of stone throwing youths got a severe going over. This is a classic tree falling in forest scenario.
The unpleasant fact is that this kind of thing is standard procedure. It is also very different from malicious, unprovoked street beatings and in no way is it worse.
Before you rush to judgement, close your eyes and imagine being there. If the rules say you cannot fire even rounds of tear gas at rioters (and the rioters know this) your base or patrol is going to be attacked by stone throwing youths with increasing regularity. Your reaction will at first be measured and designed to reflect that your role is as support for the largely ineffective and absent Iraqi forces.
The ferocity of the attacks will increase on a daily basis until a sniper or two - operating from cover at a safe distance - eventually use the rioters as cover to hit a couple of exposed troops. This means you. You are the target, one of a patrol of six, for the snipers. What are the odds you will be hit? Do you really want to play that game? No. You want to load the odds in your favour. This isn't an episode of 'Deal Or No Deal'. It's 'Die Or Not Die'.
The way to show them who's boss is to strike back first using a language they understand, in the hope that the ringleaders come across as a little less brave and swaggering when recruiting fellow rioters the next day, resulting in fewer recruits who engage with less tenacity, meaning that the snipers won't come to your sector, because the ringleaders are not brave enough.
That, in a nutshell, is why they do it. They shouldn't do it, but given the constraints, they do.
That it happens is also indicative of piss-poor leadership from both NCOs and commissioned officers, but sadly no worse than one often sees in ordinary line infantry regiments. The army is losing good NCOs at a faster rate than it can replace them, and given the raw material with which it works (and the PC way it now has to train them), it's little wonder that leadership down in the line is somewhat lacking. The better regiments don't have that problem, but Princess Popsy's Own Craphats or whatever are never going to attract the right sort of recruits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:03 PM

I cannot belive that this footage of the British troops kicking hell out of these kids is regarded as a rare happening, the gormless thugs captured on that video are playing out an everday occourence, unforunately it is not always shown on video.
This was par for the course here in the north of Ireland, a recent RTE programme on the British troops in the north, showed a poor unfotunate drunk being hammered into the ground by these thugs. We were told that this war in Iraq would be over in a week, two lying scum-bags gulled the British and US people into a ever deepening quagmire.
And where is Bin Laden?, the man who was to be captured every week from the war began.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:08 PM

"How you rejoice in tragedy, Tír Chonaillm! And you are damned to do so for the rest of your life. In English, too.

Tá a láaaaaan Gaeilge agam, mo cara bheag. Ás Gaeltacht Tír Chonaill mé..
... and predicting the future is part of what your precious MOD does, is it not?

How much do they rejoice in the prospect?
Many Irish people also live in London, remember?
Some actually perished in the July bombings, if memory serves me correctly.
If not, then it was pure serendipity on their part

Having bad help is no friggin excuse, Gervase.
Ár chor ar bith...

Don't get into things you know you can't handle.

Much better advice...

In any freeking language....


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:18 PM

I was answering Divis's first post - tell us how it is justifed ?????????
It's wrong, of course. Just as any sort of beating is wrong. But it works. It's something that has always gone on. It works best when coupled with carrots as well; good hearts and minds policies which provide real benefit to people, coupled with non-fatal kickings to eejits who don't see it that way. Somehow, though, I think someone forgot to issue the carrots in this current policing vortex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:37 PM

Typically, predicatably, Tír Chonaill, you missed the entire point about the language. We all know English is your first language, and the only one your countrymen speak comfortably. And your history is forever intertwined with that of your enemy. I'd say mission accomplished, Britannia. How sad it must be to have all your accomplishments measured in degrees of those you hate most. And you do hate.


Back to the shadows for me, lads, ... I'll let you enjoy the last word. I predict it will be the same as the first.

sliante


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM

What does "sliante" mean?

Slainte (minus the accent because I can't get it to go above the "a"!),

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:02 PM

I started this thread just to voice my utter shock and horror at how these highly trained men in uniform could act in such a manner.

Sadly then it got somewhat twisted around towards the Iriah Republican army. And then insult after insult towards me. Please don't allow guilt to visit you at a later stage over your remarks, I forgive you.

Ladies and gentleman, and you too Teribus, Why must you attempt to cast such a dark shadow over members of the PIRA ? they are actually a fine bunch of chaps once you get to know them. I once would have considered myself an authoritarian on the movement, sadly tonight this sits in doubt. We have heard the voices of reason, the voices of ex members of the crown forces and the contributions of so many important people. I have even said sorry to Keith, without reply may I add.

So many of you are right in what you say. I often told those involved in such deeds,You won't stop this until you put somebodies eye out. Well I suppose I can't hide my admiration for those hero's that fought for the rights of Irish People, and I can't hide the fact that I am a Republican, nor can I hide my pleasure that it get's up so many British noses.

So Ladies and Gentleman, and you to Teribus, I really feel we ought to return to the point in question, Has the world now seen the British army at their best !


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:03 PM

I'd say "shameful" is about as strong an adjective as there is. Much strionger than "disgraceful" - it's quite possible in the same sentence to admit that something you did was "disgraceful", and go on to say you are proud of it. You can't do that with "shameful."

I think shameful is the right epithet in this case.

And no, it doesn't "work", Gervase. Any deterrent effect is liable to be outbalanced by the other effects, generating greater violence and more effective organisation of that violence in response. It might work with football hooligans (possibly), but a whole different set of factors are involved in this kind of situation, most especially where an army of occupation is involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:17 PM

Ladies and gentleman, and you too Teribus, Why must you attempt to cast such a dark shadow over members of the PIRA ? they are actually a fine bunch of chaps once you get to know them.



Post in question from Divis Sweeney


"
Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish ! "


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM

Okay GUEST, You have drove me to an admission here. She was Hungarian and married, her name was Teasie. Lived in flat 122 the only place we could meet was on the roof as she was agoraphobic. Yes sadly smacking was her weakness and as she owned one of those exercise machines her arse was as firm as a rock. Her cheeks never bounced back. Hope this clears the matter up for you. Funny actually feel better for getting it off my chest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:40 PM

FOR CHRISTSAKE, that's hilarious! Haha...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:54 PM

Do you often laugh on your own?


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM

I laugh as often as possible! On my own, with a group...makes no difference to me. I just enjoy being happy. Thanks for asking, though!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM

Interesting article in todays Times.

In it Martin Sameul comments on the stance taken by most of the UK press when this sort of thing happens.

"Our brave boys are heros, and the actions of a few bad apples bring the British Army into disrepute.
The public is told that our Armed Forces and all they stand for represent the best of British"

Samuel continues...."Here is an alternative theory. the repeated assertion that the best, bravest and most admirable citizens are those who seek employment in which part of the job is to maim and kill an enemy not of ones choosing is perhaps the most harmful falsehood in Western civilisation, and until it is rejected will continue to keep mankind in an unending state of turmoil and misery"

It is disengenuous of the "warriors" on this site to try to excuse the barbarity of our troops against unarmed young boys, by citing the actions of an outnumbered and outgunned band of guerrilla fighters seeking to free their country from tyranny...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM

Slainte means 'to your health' (I think).


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:51 PM

Just heard on the news that several British soldiers of the 1st Infantry are being questioned about the attacks on Iraqi youths.
An MOD spokesman said it all seemed to start when one Iraqi youth shouted across to another youth, Top of the morning to you Patrick. The spokesman added, It would appear the soldiers in question thought they were in Ulster and reacted accordingly. Asked about the video footage shown on world television last Sunday, he said we haven't got time to look this case yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:54 PM

Thanks Peace. I was wondering what "sliante" meant though... :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:08 PM

Gawd, I'm slow . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:51 PM

Haha! Oh, look at me...laughing by myself again. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

Don, you need to check what constitutes a reasonable response.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Captain Blood
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Gervase, Bloody well said old boy, that's the bulldog spirit alive and kicking. We sorted out the bloody natives in Indian and Africa with the same jolly good thrashing. Must say old boy you must consider membership of the club at some stage, hellish good sorts there.
Well must dash now, cheerio bye for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:39 PM

slainte doesn't mean anything.... collection of letters, only.
Quite possibly a typo.

But Britannia's 'Mission Accomplished' did more for the revival of the Irish Language in the North of Ireland over the last 30 years than it did for it's attempted anhilliation over tha last 800, and being from the Gaeltacht myself, I have the singular privilige of having had it spoken to me from Day 1.

So not only is my Gaelige better than yours, my English is as well

Talk about misjudging a situation....

How do you define 'Mission Accomplished', by the way?

If you judge your Countries successes by how much misery to attempt to bring to people, then you are worse than those that you are attempting to subdue.

Resistance movements are what spring up in the wake of your actions, Britain, or has this to be explained to you time and again?
The main lessons in life are learned the hard way, Ladies & Gentlemen, and now that the British Establishment has recognised the legitimate struggle of the IRA, by sitting down at the table with them and negotiating the Peace settlement, one wonders what 'Mission Accomplished' actually means....
"Thank f**k we got out of there", is the general concensus

When do you all expect the next bombs in London?
Who do you reckon will plant them, or as is now the norm, wear them?

How far down the road of maintaining your own homeland security are you since the days of the IRA, Britain?

Lessons are learned the hard way.

So far ye have learned absolutely nothing.
And I will continue, as I'm sure other clear-thinking individuals across the World will likewise continue, to pull you to task everytime you continue to not learn.

We are the guardians of your conscience, Britain.

Never fecking forget that


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Subject: BS: 'Rambo Types' in The British Army
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:18 AM

I made a reference in another thread to a report which concludes that the British Army attracts "Rambo Types"
Ake quoted Samuel "...the repeated assertion that the best, bravest and most admirable citizens are those who seek employment in which part of the job is to maim and kill an enemy not of ones choosing is perhaps the most harmful falsehood in Western civilisation..."

The compexities of the Human Nature are manifold, boys & girls...

Three or four years ago I was travelling on the London Underground late one mid-week evening, and somewhere around Monument or Tower Hill, a reasonably well-attired young man in his mid-Twenties, maybe, got on the train.
The first thing he did when he slumped into a window seat on his own, was to rip the knot of his light blue tie, and open the top button of his rose coloured shirt. He closed his eyes and was silent for about 30 seconds.
He then turned to his reflection in the dark glass beside him, and in scene that immediately reminded me of the Travis Bickle character in 'Taxi Driver', he proceeded to re-enact an argument he had either had, or was preparing himself for..., with person or persons unknown. It sounded like his Boss, from what I could hear.. "Bastard", "Cunt", "Kill you, you fucker".

It had to be one of the saddest sights I have ever witnessed.... on one level; the breaking of the Human spirit

He still hadn't got it all out by the time I stepped off at West Ham

This tortured soul seemed to be at the end of his tether.
The poor chap tries his best, I'm sure..., why would he be only coming home from the Office at 9.30 in the evening.
He was probably going to have to be up before Dawn to come back into town and go through all of this again.
If one thinks a week is a long time in Politics, pity the poor cogs in the wheel who have to live with the pressures and try to handle the frustrations that a wet week stuck behind some computer, dealing with people equally as pissed off with their lot as they are with their own, does for them.

Friday night, quite a lot of them are out there, though.
All these Travis Bickles'.
All of them poised to really give somebody "some". Doesn't matter who. All that is needed is the slightest of 'reasons'

Quite a lot of them spend the weekend locked up, as a result.
Then its back to the real World again on Monday morning...

We have a Society, Ladies & Gentlemen, that unfortunately breeds this kind of behaviour.
The strive to get on in Life has become so competitive these days, that gone are the days when most people can leave work behind them at 5.00, go home to the meat and 2 veg, and have some quality neuclear 2.4 time.

Teachers are being killed in classrooms, instead.
The Elderly are having their homes broken into, and are being robbed of their life-savings.

In a competitive World, the fittest survives.
The more competitive that World gets, the fitter you have to be.

I think the point being made by Samuel, and from that Radio 4 article I heard, is that The British Army takes quite a lot of the Travis Bickles' of this World, who either can't handle that rat-race, and encourages them instead to direct their frustrations into their new job.
Oddly enough, in any other line of work, this would be considered sound advice.

In the British Army however, it is kicking a naked fellow-Marine unconscious, getting stoned, as Teribus so rightly pointed out, and bullying comrades to the point of suicide that seem to make a 'Man' out of one, these days.
Whether kicking kids unconscious is part of the overall Master Plan or not, I don't know
("... Burn Motherfucker, Burn....")

Although because of what I, and my compatriots have witnessed in our own back yard, I can see distinct correalations between the grieviously heavy-handed approach by the ex-cons of The Paras, The Black Watch, and the rest of that, what was even then, scum, I am not being made any more optimistic about the re-percussions of all these new revelations.
We know, 'cos we've experienced it all before...

There is also a point that no British Army apologist has considered here, yet....

Point in case being that even non-combatants hated the British presence in my Country.
Not everyone who hates you and your sort, carries a gun, Teribus.

But the more indiscriminate one is, the more you lose the peace, Teribus.
And, in turn, the more you piss off the locals....

Statistically speaking therefore, one would have to kill all the Muslims on the planet to ensure Iraq and Afghanistan would be pacified.

That's not part of the overall plan is it, do you think....?


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Mudcat time: 6 October 7:13 AM EDT

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