BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq

Subject: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM

Well what do you make of the video shown on the world news tonight of British soldiers kicking the lining out of youths in Iraq ? No stage work on this one. In with the boot. The soldier videoing this for beers in the mess hall later,laughs. Really don't know why there is so much talk about it, saw them and felt it often enough myself during their invasion of the North of Ireland. So is this the peace keeping force the Iraqi people need ? Come on the usual suspects here on mud, defend it, and tell us how it is justifed ?????????

Blair promises Iraq 'abuse' probe

The footage came from a "whistleblower" ex, British soldier.
Tony Blair has said claims of abuse by soldiers "will be investigated" after images that appeared to show UK troops beating Iraqi youths were published.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Let's hope justice prevails on this incident Divis ... is it a peace keeping force or an occupational force?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM

I'm amazed you'd expect anything different.It's the human male. Whether he's kneecapping a Protestant, blowing up a parade, beating up prisoners, raping women, killing civilians, building gas chambers...It's not the prerogative of the British, Divis, it's the failing of us all, no matter what our race, creed or colour. It's indefensible, unjustifiable but it's been going on since the dawn of time. How would you stop it? Good catholics, even the Pope, couldn't prevent IRA atrocities. The Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't stop Loyalist atrocities. Blair and Bush can't stop this, anymore than a good muslim leader could stop 9/11.
It's not a case for petty point scoring. It's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:50 PM

Sorry ... I think it is more the mindset of an occupational military force ... true, it's a 'human' trace and not necessarily a male thing at that ... but when you are an occupying force, your going to see more of these acts ... an occupying force is fighting for it's life against the citizens of the occupied land, fighting for their rights and their home .... extreme behaviours will be exhibited from both sides.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM

>>I'm amazed you'd expect anything different.It's the human male. Whether he's kneecapping a Protestant, blowing up a parade, beating up prisoners, raping women, killing civilians, building gas chambers...<<

What a load of shit. I know a great many human males who do not engage in such activities and would never engage in such activities. Some American servicewomen freely participated in the sexual abuse of Iraqi male prisoners. Must be in their natural programming too.

Atrocities are a consequence of aggression, hate, superiority issues and fear -- not gender, I'm afraid. In that case, we may as well bust it down by race as well.

>>It's not the prerogative of the British, Divis, it's the failing of us all, no matter what our race, creed or colour. It's indefensible, unjustifiable but it's been going on since the dawn of time. How would you stop it? Good catholics, even the Pope, couldn't prevent IRA atrocities. The Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't stop Loyalist atrocities. Blair and Bush can't stop this, anymore than a good muslim leader could stop 9/11.
It's not a case for petty point scoring. It's life.<<

While I agree it's always going to happen and you can't prevent it, you still have to punish it whenever it occurs. To not do so is less civilized than the atrocious behavior. It is itself atrocious behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

I didn't say it was every human male, but there are enough of the type everywhere and always to make sure it goes on. I'm male myself and not one of them, but I've seen enough of them in the forces, in the pub, in the football ground, in the office, to know who they are.
And of course these actions should be punished, but it will never stop them. The real villains are the powerful who cause these young men to be brutalised by the actions they make them take in the service of their power struggles, be it Bush, Blair, McGuinness, Paisley or Bin Laden.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: number 6
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM

So true Guest!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM

Always to be condemned, and condemned according to the ferocity and disproportionate use of force. This looked terrible to me, but obviously not terrible like a bomb in Warrington shopping centre or a kneecapping. But those "our lads" need the book thrown at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM

Did I not see in the newspapers that the Iraqi "youths" had thrown a hand-grenade into the solders' post, and that it had exploded, killing or wounding some of the soldiers?

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

There is more to it as Richard Bridge states. Maybe this fazction of the ENEMY deserved what they got.

I'm sick of all the hand wringing on behalf of the ENEMY after they cut off the heads of captives.

Get fucking real. This is a war. It's not about politeness.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

What paper was that in Richard ? Can you provide more evidence to your post of Justification or reason why this occured

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM

Let go Divis! This is not about the brits. It's about all of it, everywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:40 PM

I was so ashamed to see this video on tonights news. The last photographs of such behaviour were said to be a hoax, same cannot be said for this footage. It was given to the newspaper by a friend of the soldier who shot the film. This is a legal force in another country there to provide so called peace, they are not a terrorist army as some of you drew comparison with. This is the army of a country, the British army. I ask you what other incidents are going on besides this. My brother served there last year and said many then were aware of the existance of this footage recorded on a dvd camera. Other footage also exists. The full weight of the law must fall upon those involved and no cover up or fudge can or will be accepted. As I said this is members of a force charged with the task of providing protection to the people of Iraq.Where were the officers, involved ?

I think Divis it struck a raw nerve and possibly brought back memories that you could well have done without.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

I am not having a pop here at the British army, if it was the army of any other country I would be as vocal. Yes it did bring back memories. As to what we did in Ireland, we faced the courts, prison and loyalist death squads working from information provided by the British forces for our actions. As GUEST has rightly pointed out, this is a government backed force we seen here in action. Attacks such as these on young men result in them seeking revenge, and add to the ranks of those the British and American forces are there to deal with. Believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

If the boys had thrown a grenade that killed some soldiers - friends of those doing the beating - the soldiers would have opened fire, not just sunk the boot 'in the good old spirit of "fun"'.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

This is what you are up against here Foolestroupe, the usual suspects try to invent justification.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:02 PM

DS

yes, I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM

Time will tell. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

As to what we did in Ireland, we faced the courts, prison and loyalist death squads working from information provided by the British forces for our actions.

And the question Divis is "What did you do?"
The same as the loyalist death squads, that's what.
Can you not see it man. You're just the same.
You're all just the same.
Justified in your own warped minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:49 PM

I fought for my country Guest. Like yourself here had to wear a mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

I fought for my country Guest.

The justification they all give for the death and misery they bring. So did the idiots you fought against. They'd say the same.
And so it goes on, and on and on.......

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

Really shouldn't enter into subjects you know little about.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:23 PM

I just thought to myself the other day
"We havent had a good irish thread for a while"

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:27 PM

Oh, I know you. I've known you for thousands of years.Bigoted, blind, hate filled, your best friend is death and your enemy is love.I'm just tired of having to share this poor planet with you and your kind. Life deserves better than the bitterness you feed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM

Great to get a laugh so late into the night. Thanks be to christ we didn't have to depend on the like of you within the ranks. Go try to beat down someone who can or will take you serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:01 PM

Oh, let's feel sorry for the enemy.

Isn't that the hand-wringing liberal way?

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

Agreed Martin, Sun flower seeds and funny cigarette type.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM

The reason that so many vocal Americans hate 'liberals' is tha the USA is a country with a long Fascist (and funnily enough - anti-semetic!) history.

:-)
"Those who do not learn from history are condemmed to repeat it."

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM

There's nothing funny about anti-semitism, foolestroupe.

And the U.S. is nothing compared to what has and to a great degree, what still goes on in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:19 AM

Observer, yesterday, page 3 "Taken from a rooftop the footage is said to show troops engaged in a running battle with youths, who are seen throwing a greande which hits their compound".

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:08 AM

Thanks Richard. The Observer, that says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: polaitaly
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 AM

You know....for ten grown men equipped with weapons and boots to take four bare-feet fourteen or fifteen-years-old ( "four boys in their early teens" , said another newspaper, I don' remember wich) and beat them uncounscious with kiks and batons , don't seem to be....how can I say... very good .
pol

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:59 AM

Very true, Pol. Just reading in the Belfast Telegraph that video shows, "shows a grenade landing inside the compound while the black fumes of a fire just outside the perimeter blow through."

It goes on to say: "Youths hurling abuse and stones turn tail as a group of soldiers pursue them, grab four apparent youngsters and drag them into the compound. They are then seen to mete out a vicious attack. One Iraqi is heard to plead for mercy as he is punched in the head and back before being hit with a baton. Another is seen to squirm in pain as he is beaten with a baton, a third struggles as he receives similar treatment. A fourth prisoner arches in agony as a soldier, said to be a sergeant, kicks him hard between the legs."

I was talking to my boss about this whole thing, and she said something very relevant. During times when soldiers are under such stress, they do things that they would normally be ashamed to do in their lives. But, when they, or we, release our footing on higher ground, we become just like those we despise. And that is just not worth it.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

Sorry Richard - but I need a bit more than this.

It maybe that the video I have seen on TV is not the complete version - but there is nothing on the video shown on TV so far that I have seen that showed a grenade landing or evidence of a grenade having landed in that compound.

I feel had there been then a) it would have been included and b) it would still not justify a group of squaddies beating up teenagers - but might make it more understandable.

The point is surely that the soldiers were taking the law into their own hands. Were these the teenagers that had thrown the grenade - or as is more likely from the footage I have seen and other newspapers seem to indicate, were these the ones who did not run fast enough? What was the final result? Were they prosecuted? What was the result of the trial? Has the Army totally abandoned the rule of law? When was this approved in Parliament?

As far as I am aware these kids were throwing stones and no grenades were shown being thrown. Besides, the evident glee in the commentator's voice I think sums up the attitude. Was this filmed for military purposes? Again I suspect not. It was probably shown for entertainment in mess halls. Was the whole process done deliberately? Or was it accidental that the video camera was there, and those teenagers were beaten up in front of it? I really would like to know the full facts.

The reason I do not approve of innocent people being attacked like this is that one day it might be me.

Having got that rant over - the true villains are Bliar (spelling deliberate) and Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM

Maybe this fazction of the ENEMY deserved what they got.

The real danger are when that kind of attitude becomes acceptable among the political and military command structure, as happens only too often. And among ordinary people.   

It's probably inevitable in a military occupation that there will be some people get drawn into brutality against their normal nature, or in some cases take advantage of the chance to act as the thugs.

What isn't inevitable is that this kind of behaviour will be used as a technique of occupation, or will be encouraged by comments such as "the ENEMY deserved what they got."

The main target of any investigation should be identifying any indications that people higher up the chain of command colluded in this. And dealing with them very severely indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

I understand that there was a grenade thrown - but I did not see it on the video show. Has anyone else?

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM

Incidents like these create a recruitment ground. Officers had to be present. No grenade smoke on the video I saw.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

Whether someone had chucked a grenade or not is irrelevant. There is no reason to think that any of the boys being kicked around had thrown it.

And if they had picked up a genuine insurgent rather than a random teenager, that's not an acceptible way to treat a prisoner of war.

As haas been pointed out in press covereage here, these soldiers have increased the danger to other soldiers, and to other people as well. They were, paradoxically enough, "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM

These acts should not be condoned, regardless of what triggered the soldiers to come outside of their compound. I do think, though, that it is important to try to understand why they did this so that better programs can be developed to teach soldiers to deal with stress positively. But, I'm sure some of those soldiers caught on tape were acting not out of stress and fatigue and anger, but showing part of their nature, and that's a scary thought.

Colonel Tim Collins (Royal Irish Regiment - a favorite to some of you on this thread I know!) gave a speech in 2003 for a group of soldiers. Just wanted to include a bit of it here...it's actually quite sad to read his words and then see what some troops are doing and have done.

"We go to liberate, not to conquer.
We will not fly our flags in their country
We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own.
Show respect for them...

Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham.
Tread lightly there.

You will see things that no man could pay to see
-- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis.
You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.

Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country.
Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you."

E

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Den
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM

Who here is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident. These guys' only crime was that they were caught on video.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Epona
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Very true, unfortunately...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:40 PM

Sweeney, you said

I am not having a pop here at the British army, if it was the army of any other country I would be as vocal.

The video shows a lapse in discipline. Shameful.
How did PIRA treat it's prisoners Sweeney? It was disgraceful how those young Arabs were treated, but not life threatening or crippling.
Any of your prisoners would have gladly changed places with them.

The bursting grenade is shown on a sequence clearly shot just before the rest of the piece. Any other army would have returned fire. The US army in Iraq has done so frequently with less provocation.

The British squadies went out without guns! Again, what other army shows such restraint?

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

"The video shows a lapse in discipline."

That is exactly what neeeds to be determined. Discipline does break down under stress.

However there have been many occasions in many armies, including the British Army, when brutality towards captives and civilians has been connived at or encouraged by senior officers, and in such cases it is common practice to seek to present the events as merely "a lapse in discipline". "Abu Ghraib" was such a case, many (most?) people believe.

The important thing is to be certain that this latest incident is not another case of that happening. It is not something which can be taken as read, in Iraq anymore than in past conflicts in, for example, Northern Ireland or Kenya.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:26 PM

Any attempt to justify this incident is an insult to those members of the military, and of the emergency services who operate within the law despite extreme provocation.

Soldiers and more particularly police officers generally act with a measure of restraint, using only such force as is necessary to subdue.

If the participants in this brutal attack are allowed to get away with it, how can we ask a police officer to bring in a cop killer, rather than shooting him in cold blood.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and IMHO this was way past that place, and the fact that our very own anti Muslim bigot has tried, convicted and sentenced thes kids on the sole evidence that the troops were kicking the shit out of them rather neatly makes my point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:37 PM

Whatever the other facts of the situation it is not appropriate to seek to discuss the actions (or rather reactions) of the soldiers in isolation from the things to which they were reacting.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:50 PM

Whatever the other facts of the situation it is not appropriate to seek to discuss the actions (or rather reactions) of the soldiers in isolation from the things to which they were reacting.

I disagree. Regardless of what they were or weren't reacting to, their behaviour was wrong. I doubt that is how they were trained to restrain anyone barefoot and unarmed. Gratuitous thuggery in glorious technicolour that now endangers their colleagues lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:01 PM

Richard, you, of all people, are surely not saying that there can be justification for breaking the law, especially international law?

Pleas of provocation, as I understand it, may mitigate,, but not justify.

Also, it cuts both ways. Only in the somewhat suspect ratiocination of our friend MG have those youths been shown to have been responsible for anything that led to their being beaten.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

Anyone old enuf to remember this guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Just the reply I would expect from you Keith, Everyone again please notice how he has twisted it around to involve the Provo's. What has this to do with the Provisionals Keith please answer. No the Provisionals as you are fully aware did not hold prisoners, there were no Provisional internment camps here in the North of Ireland. Your government owned them all. And please don't forget your British Troops were found guilty of torture of Irish prisoners here too.

You said The British squadies went out without guns! Again, what other army shows such restraint?

That was nice of them, having been battered more than once by YOUR SQUADIES as you so nicely call them, let me tell you, after five hours of it, you would welcome being shot.

For Christsake man, get your mind back onto the thread and as I said to you before, our war is over. Can you not accept that.

Here it is just for you once again Keith.

We regret the loss of live during the campaign here in the North of Ireland. All lives, without except.
All units of the Provisional IRA have been stood down.
All weapons were sawn, crushed and buried in concrete.
There is no more bombings, shootings or attacks carried out by any member.
Sorry Keith for everything, sorry Keith for what the provisionals did.
Sorry Keith we had to fight for basic human rights for our people.
Sorry Keith we fought against your Squadies.
In whole sorry for everything.

Now Keith what did I miss ?

Maybe next time you visit a thread, be it how to knit a jumper or someone thinking of an attack on Iran. Think long and hard how you can blame the Provo's.

Expected more from you, others may not, but I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:29 PM

Guys: I know no one wants a third-in on a fight, but you need one. I don't think either (any) of the groups involved in "the troubles" behaved like gentlemen. It was nasty, ugly business from the South, the North, the SAS. Put your fists away, lads.