Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost

Subject: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:40 AM

When I purchased my computer it came with the hard disc partioned into 30 Gig and 50 Gig sectors. The 30 Gig part contains all the daily operating stuff and the 50 Gig part has only Norton Ghost installed on it. I've been trying to find out about this program and what it does by reading the manuals etc. but I get lost in the terminology.

What I sort of get so far is the stuff about disaster recovery and having a backup image file, even though I'm not quite sure what an image file is.

What I'd like to know is are my files, photos, documents and music being automatically backed up by the program or does backing up require some input from me and if it does, how do I go about it ?

The manuals and tutorials have info on backing up hard discs and partitions but I can't seem to find anything about backing up individual files. Would I have to copy the entire partition to overwrite the current one each time ? Does having my HD partitions designated as two different drives make the one with the backup as safe as having a separate drive.

I'd appreciate any information anyone is willing to offer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:02 PM

I remember editing some Symantec material on this product several years ago when it first came out. Its primary purpose then was to allow an IT administrator in a networked business environment to easily create one "golden image" (operating system and applications that users will need -- or updates to same) and then "replicate" that image across the network to whatever PCs require installation/updating.

Mind you, my info is old, but I doubt that the product has changed so substantially that it is backing up your files.

-- Claire (who is a technical editor but doesn't work for Symantec and is not necessarily endowed with any specific technical expertise about this product)

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM

Well, hmmm. It seems I spoke a bit too soon. The product has changed substantively since it first came onto the market and is now appropriate for single-system use.

I suggest reading this brief article as a good, plain-English description of what it does now -- assuming you have version 10.

It still doesn't back up folders, though; looks like it only backs up/restores whole "images" -- everything you've got on your system.

Claire

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:37 PM

Yes I've looked at this system and been tempted, just worried about the space it will take up on my HD.
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:44 PM

Ghost is a marvelous backup program, but the arrangement of the drives is not ideal. I use an external hard drive to back up my computer, so that the backup is isolated from the physical drive I would repair or replace if necessary.

Open Ghost and read the manual that is with it. Set up a file in the space on the backup drive (Ghost doesn't have to live on that drive, or to be on a separate drive) and run a backup there. Set up any boot disks it suggests, and then do a regular full backup or more requent incremental backup.

You usually have to tell the program what drivers (floppy, CD, DVD, etc.) to add to your boot disk and backup disk, it isn't entirely seamless, but it is much easier to use now than the earlier versions.

This program can write back the entire disk or a portion of it that has been damaged or corrupted. I've had to use it a time or two in an older machine when my reach exceeded my grasp as far as altering the programs and partitions on my hard drive.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

You can compress the data. You should have it verify it after the backup. I keep at least one good backup a year on CDs that are kept in another room in the house. The external hard drive isn't used unless I know I'm going to do a backup. I turn on that drive then turn on the computer, or sometimes Ghost won't recognize that drive to use. After I finish for the day I turn that drive off again and keep it isolated from any transactions with the computer. The external drive is for backup, not for burglary, but having had one stolen, it can be a good idea to keep the hard drive somewhere else as long as you don't jostle it a lot and as long as you remember to regularly bring it back and make the backup.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM

Back up twice with Ghost, and keep two separate ghost files. Keep your data files separate from your system files, and only ghost the system files. I have used it with total success (complete format C and re-install in 15 minutes) but another time I tried the ghost file was corrupted and I had to do it the hard way. I move all data files I want to keep (including my psts) into my "My Documents" file in separate folders, and then back them up to separate sectors on separate hard drives as tey are now too big to go onto CD and I ahve not got around to nuying a dual layer DVD writer yet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:06 PM

Several comments got in while I was composting, but I'll post it anyway.

Last question first:

If your hard drive fails, in many cases all partitions are unreadable, so a backup on a different partition of the same mechanical device is not really a safe backup.

It is possible to have damage to individual parts of the disk surface where the files are recorded, so that only parts of the information are lost. In this case other parts of the drive may remain usable for a while, so you may be able to read from a backup on the other partition; but any significant file corruption is usually a sign that the entire drive will cease to function in the very near future.

Since you may have time to copy everything from the image in a different partition to a new drive, it's better than no backup at all; but (1) you have to recognize that the drive is failing, (2) it has to be a failure that permits you to continue reading reliably from the other partition, and (3) you have to make the transfer of information before the entire drive tanks itself.

What is an image?

An image file is a "logically exact" copy of the one drive on another drive. This means that exactly the same information is copied from one drive to exactly the same "logical location" on another drive. The same "logical location" means that a cluster of data on one drive will have the same cluster address in the two copies of the data. Since two different drives may use different "addressing schemes" they need not be "mechanically identical," but if the computer asks for data from a specific cluster number, it should get identically the same information from either drive.

In actual practice, it is not necessary to control the "cluster address" of all the files to have a workable image; but location of some files is significant. When you do a defrag, your "details" picture will show a number of files as "unmovable." These are most of the ones that need to have specific locations.

In addition to the files you can "see" on a drive there are two copies of a File Allocation Table that tell where all the stuff is on the drive, and a Boot Sector that contains the information necessary to start the drive, tell the system how to read the drive, and tell the system where to find the first file it should read in order to get started. These must also be copied to the image, and they're the ones that you can't generally get with simple copy procedures.

Are my files being automatically backed up?

Probably NO. I haven't seen a recent copy of Ghost, and it may have added the ability to create a mirror and then do scheduled backups; but I'd expect that you have to turn it on and make the initial image as a specific user controlled precedure. Since the "unmovable" files are (nearly) all part of the operating system, once you've made a System Image, any new files can be added incrementally without worrying about cluster locations. Since the File Allocation Tables must change when new files are added, and/or when you do a defrag, they may need to be "restored" periodically to keep the image up to date.

If you want the backup to contain work files that you add, you also would need to set up a schedule and tell your system when to add any "new" files to the backup.

You could simply make a "new image" periodically, but even 20 or 30GB of stuff will take an hour or more just to copy everything from one drive to another.

We do have several people here who have said that they use Ghost on a regular basis. One of them can probably give you more specific information about how to use the program.

If you have an image of your hard drive on a different hard drive, you should be able to take the original hard drive out of your computer, and put the new one in in its place. The computer should not visibly recognize that the drives have been changed.

A backup drive should have all of the same files as the original, but will not necessarily run as a replacement if you swap drives.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the link to the article Claire Bear, unfortunately The version I have is Ghost 2003 which, it seems has been considerably improved upon by version 10.0 ("Whereas Ghost 2003 had an interface only a techie could love, Ghost 10.0 shuns technical terms and employs wizards throughout".) Sums up my problem - lack of familiarity with those technical terms.

Giok, the program occupies 60.53MB.

Thanks for your kind responces.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

Thanks John, I also was composting as you were posting so I'd like to thank you as well. I did realize after my original post that a partition is not as secure as a separate HD as I was thinking corruption and not mechanical failure. As the cost of HD's today is pretty reasonable I will consider getting one for backup. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Bert
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM

Thread drift towards backups in general.

I wouldn't compress any files on a backup. I remember one time when an uncomress routine was updated and was incompatable with older compressed files.

I'm with Richard Bridge in that you should back up your data files separately from your system files.

Also don't keep any of your data in the folder called My Documents. I had an instance where Microslop wouldn't let me back up My Documents because the folder contained a system file but the error message did not tell me the file name that was causing the problem.

So now I create my own folders and keep my data in them.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:44 PM

A problem that comes up frequently with hard drive maintenance is the hard drive that you want to replace. This can happen because you suspect an impending failure, or just because you want a larger drive in the machine.

Most computers have enough space physically to install another hard drive, but not a spare pair of connectors to hook up both drives at the same time. To put two hard drives in place and copy (image) from one to the other requires disconnecting something else such as a CD/DVD, ZIP, or floppy drive, and then reconnecting everything after you get the original drive removed.

Once you get past 10 or 20 GB, it takes at least several DVDs or many CDs to move all the data.

If you have a network connection and another machine of your own, or a web space where you can do a remote save, you can copy everything elsewhere, change the drives, and copy everything back; but this requires installing at least a minimal OS and networking and/or browser to access the remote storage.

You can get an external drive, usually connected via USB, that you can use to mirror stuff to, then swap drives and mirror back to the new one.

The neatest method I've found is to use a homemade external drive.

You can get a "USB case," in my area about $40 (US). You can put any hard drive that's the right physical size in the case, and you have an external USB drive. The cost of the case and a standard internal hard drive, in my area recently, is a few bucks less than a "factory built" external USB drive.

The new drive that you put in the case should come with a program, usually on CD now, that lets you mirror the inernal drive to the new one in the case. When the mirror is finished, you can take the new drive out of the case and put it in the machine in place of the original drive, and the machine won't know you've done anything. If the old drive has remaining life, you can put it in the case and have a handy external USB drive you can use as "scratch space" or that you can use to backup any additional files you add to the internal one. (It's already a mirror of the new internal one.) If the old drive is too far gone, or two small, you can get another drive to pop into the case and use it for your backups.

If you do a mirror of the internal drive to the new one, and then add (uncompressed) incremental backups, you have a standby replacement that's physically swappable if you new internal one has problems.

If you get the case, put a good drive in it, mirror the internal drive, and then do incremental backups, you have about as reliable a backup as you can get without going to a full-RAID 3 to 5 drive server. The only recommended "full security" backup step omitted is the advice that your backup should be stored "off-site" in case of natural disasters.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM

I have a partitioned hard drive in my HPa820n with the HP recovery files on D: and everything else on C: so that I can reinstall the computer to its original state with those D: files. I have backed them up separately, as one would expect to for partitions.

I have a homemade external drive (300gig), as John describes, that I put together to save particular files (the music I'll be working on that is from my Dad's recordings). I have a separate regular external 160gig hard drive that is also attached and is what I use for Ghost backups. (I got this first and built the other later). Neither of these is turned on unless I think I'll be using them that day (so they're not on very often). Boy, you should see the spaghetti hanging off the back of my computer desk!

Since I haven't used the homemade one much, and I need to backup my kids' computer, I'm considering setting up a couple of wireless cards and networking things through the router so I can backup from their computer to this drive. I'd at the same time set up my laser printer so they can print to it.

Finally, and most importantly, there is a big difference between the earlier version of Ghost and the one out now, and it is a lot easier to use. I don't think you can use the earlier Ghost with WinXP, so that is something else to consider--what OS are you using? If you've upgraded then you need to change out your Ghost. Since you have the earlier version you will be eligible for a rebate from Norton for upgrading, and they offer these regularly. They also offer a general rebate for the purchase of a new program, and I regularly see Ghost on sale with both rebates from places like http://www.outpost.com (the online version of Fry's Electronics). Be sure to click on and print the PDF forms that are offered online for the rebates, because they go away as soon as the sale is over. Your mail order receipt is what you use along with your rebate form and box cuttings to get the rebates. You can easily get this $90 program for between $0 and $20 that way. Keep your eyes open for it, it's well worth the trouble to make the switch.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:00 PM

My ghost files were on a different hard drive.

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: Gene
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:00 PM

with the cost of Hard Drives having dropped drastically
in the past few years, I use Norton Ghost to make a
duplicate copy of the Master HD and then disconnect the
backup copy...

I told a local pal about it some time ago, and he threw away his
obsolete tape back-up junk...which was a Pain, lemmee tell ya!

Subject: RE: Tech: Information Needed Re.Norton Ghost
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Ghost is, from all I've heard, a very good program. As has been mentioned, it's original purpose was for system administrators to distribute standard hard drive setups to multiple machines.

It is being packaged with OEM software fairly often, and of course it can be handy.

It should be noted though, that virtually all of the hard drive manufacturers provide setup utilities that come with any new drive, or that can be downloaded at no cost from their web sites. If you start with a new or clean drive, one of these utilities can "image" an existing drive so that it's swappable/interchangeable with the existing one.

Once the image, including the operating system, is in place, you can backup everything else just by copying to the drive, since location on the disk doesn't really matter for your data files.

Recent Windows versions also have built-in backup utilities, that allow you to easily do incremental backups of files that have changed since the last backup. Microsoft's reputation on recoverability from backups has a few scabs on it, but if you don't compress your backups, they should copy back okay. I'd be inclined to at least make a separate backup folder for anything you didn't "image" to the disk at first setup, perhaps.

John