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BS: Responses To Racism

The Shambles 25 Mar 06 - 01:30 PM
The Shambles 25 Feb 06 - 05:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Feb 06 - 05:04 AM
The Shambles 25 Feb 06 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,dianavan 25 Feb 06 - 12:56 AM
Greg F. 24 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM
Peace 24 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM
autolycus 24 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM
wysiwyg 24 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM
The Shambles 24 Feb 06 - 10:30 AM
The Shambles 24 Feb 06 - 10:19 AM
Bobert 24 Feb 06 - 08:09 AM
hilda fish 24 Feb 06 - 07:16 AM
Ron Davies 23 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 06 - 10:31 PM
Bobert 23 Feb 06 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,dianavan 23 Feb 06 - 09:23 PM
Greg F. 23 Feb 06 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,petr 23 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 03:02 PM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 02:36 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,bob 23 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM
Peace 23 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 01:20 PM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,bob 23 Feb 06 - 12:13 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 12:11 PM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 12:05 PM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,bob 23 Feb 06 - 06:45 AM
Azizi 23 Feb 06 - 05:14 AM
The Shambles 23 Feb 06 - 03:15 AM
Paco Rabanne 23 Feb 06 - 03:11 AM
Gurney 22 Feb 06 - 10:50 PM
Azizi 22 Feb 06 - 09:37 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 06 - 09:05 PM
The Shambles 22 Feb 06 - 09:05 PM
Azizi 22 Feb 06 - 08:50 PM
The Shambles 22 Feb 06 - 08:47 PM
Bobert 22 Feb 06 - 08:36 PM
Azizi 22 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 22 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 22 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM
Bobert 22 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM
The Shambles 22 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM
Clinton Hammond 22 Feb 06 - 05:30 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 01:30 PM

Baby, black promoters oppressed me before white promoters ever got hold of me. Don't talk skin to me.

Mahalia Jackson


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:43 AM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:04 AM

Please explain the relevence of your link to the subject of this thread, Roger.

Another hijack?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 02:46 AM

Responses to bullying


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 12:56 AM

What Carol C. said,

"...if a member is promoting racism or hate, and is not doing it in a trolling sort of way, I think it is important to poke as many holes in his or her arguments as possible (but in a non-emotional way). If we shine a light on that kind of foolishness, we might at least be able to make them uncomfortable enough to think twice about doing it again here, even if they don't ever really experience a change of heart about people whom they see as being different than themselves."


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

Surprised you'd construct a sentance combining "reason" with "Nazis" and/or "racists", Bruce.

;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

I will not reason with racists or nazis. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

I'd like to bring the thread back to one of Azizi's original questions, what should we do when presented with racist comments. i.e.Responses to Racism, cp. Thread subject.

My answers are above.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

Outrage is the appropriate emotion to feel when we see racism displayed in this forum, in my opinion. But to show it in our posts doesn't correct the problem. The reason is that often times (most of the time), when people post things like that in an internet forum like this one, their intention is to get an emotional response. So whatever gets them that response, they will do more of, not less. The agenda of such people is to elicit a visceral response using any means necessary.

The reason the policy is to ignore and delete is because otherwise, the quite valid emotional responses people have toward hateful posts willcause the hateful behavior to increase rather than to decrease. I know this seems counterintuitive, but the internet seems to have a different behavioral reality attached to it than the 3D world.

Having said that, if a member is promoting racism or hate, and is not doing it in a trolling sort of way, I think it is important to poke as many holes in his or her arguments as possible (but in a non-emotional way). If we shine a light on that kind of foolishness, we might at least be able to make them uncomfortable enough to think twice about doing it again here, even if they don't ever really experience a change of heart about people whom they see as being different than themselves.

Either way, Azizi and Hilda Fish, I'm sorry for your pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

I'm neither giving up on Tarheel nor suggesting anyone else do so. BUT, he has shown that at present, he is not amenable to change (of any sort).

And we can't control people. You can only offer information-- after that, they have to decide for themselves if the information is relevant to them at that point in time. And if they find it relevant, they have to find their own motivation to act upon it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:30 AM

There all all types of songs on the subject. This is another one and another view. A racist one and insulting one or just a simplistic and unhelpful one? A dream or a nightmare?

The group that fist had a 70s hit with this song was mainly white but one of the two lead singers was Madeline Bell - who was black.

Melting Pot

Take a pinch of white man
Wrap him up in black skin
Add a touch of blue blood
And a little bitty bit of red indian boy
Oh like a curly latin kinkies
Oh lordy, lordy, mixed with yellow chinkees, yeah
You know you lump it all together
And you got a recipe for a get along scene
Oh what a beautiful dream
If it could only come true, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take
The world and all it's got
And keep it stirring for
A hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

Rabbis and the friars
Vishnus and the gurus
We got the beatles or the sun god
Well it really doesn't matter
What religion you choose
And be thankful little mrs. graceful
You know that livin' could be tasteful
We should all get together in a lovin machine
I think I'll call up the queen
It' s only fair that she knows, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take
The world and all it's got
And keep it stirring for
A hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

Coffee coloured people
Coffee coloured people
Coffee coloured people by the score


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:19 AM

Not surprisingly, the blond kids didnt like being treated differently,
however almost none of the other kids complained or raised the issue of unfairness to the other kids.


This tells us about one aspect of human nature - and perhaps tells us nothing that is not already clear. I don't think that tell us much about racism/sexism etc etc - which are all manifestations of this basic aspect of human nature. Which is usually us taking the easy option, which is so tempting to take.

But is should be some consolation that there is a an aspect of human nature that leads some human beings to act selflessly and positively and caring equally for and and working with all colours and creeds.

This will always be an less easy option for those of us with busy lives and ambitions - but hopefully it will always remain an option for all of us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:09 AM

I don't buy into the theory that folks can't or won't change 'cause I have seen so much change in my life time...

I remember as a small kid hearing my dad use the term niggar for black folks becuaswe he had grown up in a tough neighborhood in Trenton, NJ and his peers used the term... My mom worked on him and by, oh, by the time I was 7 ot 8, he stopped using the term and never used it again as far as I know... By the early 60's my mom was working in the civil rights movement and my dad, well, still a little behind thwe learning curve but still learning... By the tuime thwe Poor People Campaign came to Washington, D.C. my dad was driving food and blankets into D.C. to the participants...

The point of the story is that folks do and can change... I don't write off "tarheel" or anyone else for that matter and that is why I think these threads shouldn't be closed because someone shows how unenlightened they are...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: hilda fish
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 07:16 AM

It used to be that if a man wanted to bash his wife nearly to death and abuse his kids then the door was closed and he did whatever he did. It was, after all, between him and his wife. Now it's a crime, and the man is held accountable to the community because now we know that if we ignore that sort of behaviour it undermines our humanity in the very many communities that we are. That sort of behaviour is intolerable, threatening to all of us and now we don't leave the poor wife and kids to deal with it 'face to face' just because it's felt to be 'domestic', 'private' and so on. We challenge it wherever we see it happening 'cos we know that's how it stops. Excuse the analogy but it's the same thing. Why should Azizi raise it between one other person and herself? Stick it in the middle of the lot of us I say, and sure enough that's exactly what she's done. Named it, sprayed it, and shot it. Goodoh. Azizi raises "responses to racism" as a serious issue and I'm right there with her. I thinks its wonderful to see all those who are not only prepared to go off and think about it, but also let their views be known and more importantly, name and challenge racism if they see it and wherever they see it. I still don't have any time for racism in any of its form and I personally am beyond being polite about it. I love that sister girl Azizi can give us all such respect as to raise this one and keep on batting in there despite the crap that is going down. Racism is beyond discussion or reasoning - it should be shot down and sprayed on. If there are names and faces so be it. They did it, they wear it. And everyone seems more than capable of talking/communicating. A song by an Koorie (Aboriginal) group called Tiddas which means sisters, which is about what this thread is about, and if I could play it Azizi I would dedicate it to you my sister. Keep on keeping on!
Poison Blood
If you build it, don't tear it
If you build, don't tear it down
If you build it, don't tear it
Sand will turn to stone
If you leave it just standing
If you leave it standing there
You will find you're not looking
You won't see
Can't you see just be being together
We can make a change
Then we're free from the chains that bind us
Nobody can hold us back
Nobody can hold us back
Poison blood it runs freely
Poison blood it runs fast
But if you look towards your brother
You'll see there's love to last
Can't you see, just by being together
We can make a change
Then we're free from the chains that bind us
Nobody can hold us back
Nobody can hold us back
Poison blood it runs freely
Poison blood it runs fast
But if you look toward your Tidda (sister!)
You'll see there's love to last.
If you build it, don't tear it
If you build don't tear it down
If you build it, don't tear it
Sand will turn to stone......
(By Amy Lou & Sal, three Koorie girls who were called Tiddas


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM

Tarheel is one sick puppy.

I'm not surprised that he's the one who contributed the racist "joke". He has a gospel radio show. But to give you an idea of his credentials, here's what he wrote to me after I criticized Mr. Bush (as usual, just with sarcasm--no bad language--but evidently it was too much for Tarheel's tender sensibilities.

So here's his PM to me in late August--I had sent nothing to him, nor did I afterward.




He addressed with my formal title, which is of course "bush hater".

"you are so full of hate and greed that it makes me sick to even be here!...but i have that right no liberal el (sic) pinko, commie, environmentalist, animal righist (sic) bush hater bunch is gonna make me leave! you get it!

tar


A true classic. Well it's nice to know somebody cares about what you write.


Yes, Mudcat is graced with not one but two equal opportunity bigots. And here we may have thought our favorite denizen of the Chicago sewer was the only one?


And, of course, both of them are stalwart Bush supporters ---(except of course, for the extremely rare occasions when Bush makes sense (as in the Dubai flap).

Perhaps somebody else has received fan mail from Tarheel. It would be interesting to compare notes.

So, please, don't take Tarheel's verbal excrescences (now there's a $64 word) as representative of white males, or even Southern white males.

And I'm sure he's now on everybody's watch list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:31 PM

This is about TARHEEL?

"Consider the source" was invented for his posts, whatever the topic.

He's not amenable to education or correction, either, on any topic.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:41 PM

Would be real nice to get beyond the he-says, she-says finger pointing and and deal with the issue at hand: racism here in Mudville...

Hey, I will repeat what I have proposed: Don't pull the plug on the thread!!!

Let the racists have to suffer from their postings... There are adults here who are perfectly willing to call down racist just as tyhey are willing to call down George Bush when he does stupid stuff...

Hey, if it's just juvilinistic genital/scataological crap (pun inteneded) then axe those posts...

But let the goodness of the community have an opportunity to speak up... I'm not speaking for Azizi but I think she would rather have the Mudcat community speak against a racist than have a Joe clone give the racist a reprieve by pulling the plug...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:23 PM

That trustee was wrong to single out Chinese parents for praise. He is there to ensure all children receive a good education. The Chinese parents deserve praise but so do plenty of other parents. You are right. If White parents were praised in the same way, there would be outrage.

If anyone in this city deserves praise, it is the First Nations students who overcome all odds to graduate, let alone get top marks. Maybe this trustee should realize that as long as certain groups are singled out for their rate of failure and others are singled out for their rate of success, it is promoting racism and hostility between groups.

What a dunce! He should spend a little more time educating himself and less time on political grandstanding. He's after the Chinese vote thats all and he's appealling to a segment of the Chinese population who believe they are superior. Yes, the Chinese students do well in school but because of the extreme pressure at home, many of these same students are struggling emotionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:55 PM

Azizi-

You're wasting your time arguing with an anonymous, agent provacateur "guest"- instead, let Tarheel speak personally if there's a problem.

However, in light of past "discussions", you're also wasting your time with Tarheel, who aside from thinking racist jokes are funny, is a something of a Neo-Confederate & actually believes that the ante-bellum South was living in some sort of Sir Walter Scott fantasy novel, that "niggers" all have loved their "White Folks"who only had their best interests at heart, that "Birth of a Nation" [a.k.a. "The Klansman"] is an historical documentary, that Reconstruction- despite the wholesale murder of Blacks and the denial of their constitutional rights- was simply Yankee Oppression to "punish" the South, that the Ku Klux Klan was only a social club that helped "Redeem" the White Christian[sic] South fromgullible, childlike, Bestial Blacks and Carpetbaggers & scalawags, blah blah blah.

So be warned. There are others on this forum who display the same abysmal ignorance and embrace the same lies.

And keep up your good work!

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM

regarding the 'blonde' comments..

there was an experiment in schools a few years ago, that attempted to look at racism, and how kids deal with it.

As far as I remember the teachers, selected only the blond kids in a class made them sit at the back, and when it came time to do 'fun' activities the blond kids were not a part of it, but instead were given work assignments. THe experiment was to see how the other kids dealt with it, whether or not they would complain to the teachers.

Not surprisingly, the blond kids didnt like being treated differently,
however almost none of the other kids complained or raised the issue of unfairness to the other kids.

also...
- what is your take on this? A few days ago a school trustee (of Chinese background) in a district here in vancouver, gave a speech on some students )who received top marks in some aptitude tests-
8 of the 12 students were Asian) He said Id especially like to thank these Asian families that encouraged their kids etc..

Whereupon another trustee took offense and this and criticized it
(her response was quite measured, she pointed out it is not helpful to anyone to specifically praise one group over another)

was the first comment racist?, was the other trustee being too politically correct?
I think the answer would be clear if he had said 'White' families instead of 'Asian'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:02 PM

While I am sympathetic to you that you had a traumatic day and I know those days well myself, I still believe you have dehumanized poor racist or foolish tarheel by not speaking directly to him as a human being. Yes, he did it first. But, so what? Not naming him is not virtuous, it is avoidant. We all know who you mean. You didn't say anything about what the crisis was, just the straw that broke your back. And I'm not looking for an apology, just saying what I think about this thread and it's precipitator.

Instead you got self- righteous about so many people ignoring his post and then admittedly started an interesting discussion. HOWEVER, I still think you are mishandling this. You did get at least one person to jump up and say they were going to stop playing music with him because of his politics.(pretty foolish response in my view) that will not enlighten him. A personal response from you might. And, I'm not going to PM you because you made this a public issue and I'm keeping it that way. You better toughen up, if you want to play in this sandbox. I'm not used to whiney black girls where I come from or where I am living now. and that's that. I like you but I think you
pull the same thing a lot of girls (women) here do, which is run to daddy and get everybody's support to make your case. I hate that.

motor city mama


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:36 PM

GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM

So if a person is "bent out of shape" she or he must in their emotionally vunerable condition take on the responsibility of confronting the person whose actions bent her or him out of shape while other people who are not bent out of shape keep on keepin on Is that how it goes?

I appreciate the fact that you have provided me with one more response that I could have taken and maybe should/would if I can which I feel more capable of doing now than then. However, if I contact the poster of that cut & paste joke, it will be nobody's business but him and me.

As to me dehumanizing Tarheel because-prior to now-I did not name him as the poster of that joke, your saying that sounds to me like "blaming the victim of dehumanization for failing to be considerate of the person who dehumanized them. On a much lesser scale, this is like Whittington saying he is sorry to Cheney for shooting him in the face.

But then again, while that "joke" may have seemed minor to others, it was a straw that broke the camel's back moment- for me. It's not just one thing but the cumulative effect of many things.

And I'm sure you won't mind if I feel that being an adult or not has nothing to do with how I responded to what for me was a crisis.

I am not going to apologize for asking the community that I joined to help me work through this crisis. I believe that I had the right to do so, partly because while it was personal, imo, what I perceived and still perceive as a racist joke, should have impacted folks here regardless of race.

That's all I have to say to you at this time Guest. If you want to talk to me more, you can PM me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM

Well, peace, Azizi would have impressed me much more if she had gone directly to tarheel and dealt with him as an individual than getting all bent out of shape about the rest of us white inertia bound slobs who don't have the time or energy to talk directly to tarheel about putting his foot in his mouth again. Azizi's not the only one who tries to gather support from other people when she gets bent out of shape. I say take personal responsibility and deal directly. Don't be wimpy and say stuff like "lots of other people agree with me" or " I got so many PM's in support of my positiion" or " I'm shocked at the inertia of folks against the BNP" or whatever. you don't need a mob to be right or take action. You just need your own convictions.

I'm not interested in being guilted or prodded into joining Azizi's outrage to make her feel safer about speaking out. let her take responsiblity herself for dealing directly with tarheel. people around here always run to daddy about everything they are outraged about. grow up you babies. don't marshal a mob or use manipulative guilt to feel comfortable in speaking out.

Azizi is pulling that baby stuff just like tarheel is putting up stuff that pisses people off. they both flunked grownup on this one in my book.

mcm


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM

Yet I felt and still feel that the subject of responses to racism was/is/should be important for the larger community and not just for those who felt/feel themselves or their group was targeted by a racist post/s.

I am in total agreement with you azizi. And the total lack of response to the BNP threads has amazed me. A man convicted of inciting racial hatred (which was pointed out for those who were unaware)was posting his diatribe on here quite regularly, and bar a handful of posters, the 'community' did not challenge his views.

In fact we were told by Joe to engage in civil conversation with him. And Joe then went on to delete about twenty posts that specifically ridiculed his views. None of which were in the slightest offensive.Whilst leaving his original racist posts in tact.

What message do you think this gives the person chancing upon this forum? That racists are by and large unchallenged?

Although the 'War on Racism' declared in this thread may appear very noble, it isn't actually what has happened in practise, and unless posters can post their opposition without it being deleted, the opposition is rather worthless?


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

"Azizi, You have totally depersonalized tarheel by sticking him in a category (racist)"

Disagree. Tarheel just posted the kinda stuff he believes. He seems to think racist jokes are funny. He depersonalized himself. More than a few people objected to his cut and paste crap. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:20 PM

Azizi, You have totally depersonalized tarheel by sticking him in a category (racist) and gotten on your high horse about everyone here joining you in your witchhunt to identify racist remarks. Nobody joins me when I rant about sexism and I don't get offended if they don't. tarheel is a human being and you might understand white southern men better if you didn't depersonalize him by talking about him as if he weren't a real person. not naming him is not doing anything good. we all know who he is. his post went bybebye so grow up and make this better by connecting with him instead of manipulating all us foolish white people into joingin your bandwagon. geezis girl, look at yerself.
motorcity mama


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:33 PM

Bob,

It was not the lack of involvement of lurkers that bothered me [for how would anyone know who's lurking]. What bothered me {and "bothered" is a mild word for my what I felt} was the fact that so many people who posted on that thread chose to ignore the offensive post and instead focused on other facets of what was given as the thread's topic.

This may have been their way of registering their distaste for the offensive post, but as I have said, I had {have}problems with that approach.

And yes, I know that when all is said and done, my problems are my problems. Yet I felt and still feel that the subject of responses to racism was/is/should be important for the larger community and not just for those who felt/feel themselves or their group was targeted by a racist post/s.

Also, let me say this: long before that thread last weekend I have known that a person's absence from a thread should not be used against her or him. When all is said and done, a person has to be selective about which threads she or he posts on.

There is life outside the Internet after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:13 PM

Thank you Azizi for your reply. I was puzzled why you would write :

Should people ignore offensive posts? If so, what about the feelings those posts cause? I think that ignoring them would be unhealthy.

in your opening post, in light of your absence from these many recent racist threads.

And above you have written :

I have read some if not all of those threads you mentioned, but I rarely post on them. With regard to the Irish and other European issues and movements, I am still in a learning mode. For instance,
I had never heard of BNP until I read about that organization/political party on Mudcat.

However, my absence [with regard to the posting record] from a thread that discusses efforts and movements for equal justice under the law and intercultural understanding should not be interpreted as my not caring about those movements. I do. Very Much.



I hope that you equally understand that in the UK our experience of the discrimination that African Americans face is limited which may explain our lack of involvement in the threads you find offensive.

That looks better with the italics in the right place! I hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:11 PM

Thank you Azizi for your reply. I was puzzled why you would write :

Should people ignore offensive posts? If so, what about the feelings those posts cause? I think that ignoring them would be unhealthy.

in your opening post, in light of your absence from these many recent racist threads.

And above you have written :

I have read some if not all of those threads you mentioned, but I rarely post on them. With regard to the Irish and other European issues and movements, I am still in a learning mode. For instance,
I had never heard of BNP until I read about that organization/political party on Mudcat.

However, my absence [with regard to the posting record] from a thread that discusses efforts and movements for equal justice under the law and intercultural understanding should not be interpreted as my not caring about those movements. I do. Very Much.


I hope that you equally understand that in the UK our experience of the discrimination that African Americans face is limited which may explain our lack of involvement in the threads you find offensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM

I'm still not satisfied with how I worded that statement. One more try:

Let me paraphrase what I wrote since maybe it's not obvious from the way I phrased my 23 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM post, but I do understand that BNP is the exact opposite of efforts and movements for equal justice under the law and intercultural understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:05 PM

Maybe it's not obvious, so let me say it:

BNP is the exact opposite of efforts and movements for equal justice under the law and intercultural understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

Greetings Guest, bob.

I have read some if not all of those threads you mentioned, but I rarely post on them. With regard to the Irish and other European issues and movements, I am still in a learning mode. For instance,
I had never heard of BNP until I read about that organization/political party on Mudcat.

However, my absence [with regard to the posting record] from a thread that discusses efforts and movements for equal justice under the law and intercultural understanding should not be interpreted as my not caring about those movements. I do. Very Much.

But sometimes, IMO, focused energy is better than energy scattered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:45 AM

Azizi why have you not posted on any of the anti Irish or Anti British or anti Jewish/Muslim threads started by the BNP?

I mentioned it wearlier on in this thread but perhaps you didn't see it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:14 AM

With regard to flamenco ted's 23 Feb 06 - 03:11 AM comment about the Cocojams: Race & Race Relations pages, if you visit that website, you will note that the only "section" of this thread that I have "lifted" are [some of] my poste from this thread. Also, you will note that
in one of my repost, I deleted the name of a Mudcat member who had acknowledged some discomfort being around persons of other races.

In addition to reposting some of my comments on this thread, if you visit that site you will also notice that througout the www.cocojams.com website, I have reposts of other comments that I have written on Mudcat. And there are a few reposts of comments written by other Mudcat members. Any reposts from other Mudcat members are used with their prior permission.

My writing on Mudcat is as spontaneous-in the spur of the moment-as what I imagine other people's writing here is. Sometimes after I write these comments, I have reposted them on my Cocojams website.
I suppose that the process could be reversed. If that were the case, I would note that my comment on Mudcat is a repost from Cocojams.

IMO, reposting my comments from this thread, and encouraging Cocojams readers to visit this thread and other Mudcat threads is fully in keeping with the stated goal of that website {provided on Cocojams' About Us page}to increase knowledge, awareness, and understanding of African American and other African cultures. IMO, reposting my comments {as well as the posts of other Mudcat members with their prior permission} is also fully in keeping with that goal.

It's no secret that I have a website on children's rhymes and other folk memories. The Cocojams website has been mentioned on Mudcat by other posters, and by me. Furthermore, I have mentioned on other Mudcat threads that I am engaged in a project to collect and study contemporary {post 1940s} examples of English language children's rhymes {including taunting rhymes}.

Not too long ago, a Mudcat member started a thread on this forum about Cocojams. This was started without my prior knowledge. And I have started several Mudcat threads on children's rhymes. In compliance with the process of using Mudcat members' posts as I understand it from Joe Offer, I have pmed a number of Mudcat members seeking their permission to use their posts on rhymes in a book I am editing. I am grateful that I have received permission for the use of these posts from every Mudcat member who I have contacted.

If you visit the Cocojams website, you will notice that I always acknowledge my sources-including Mudcat Discussion Forum. You will also note that I repeatedly encourage readers of that site to visit and to join Mudcat. Perhaps some African American visitors to that site, and visitors of other races/ethnicity will join Mudcat as a result of hearing about from that site. Perhaps not.

And, since you mentioned it, let me take this opportunity to invite those reading this thread to visit Cocojams. I also would like to encourage Mudcat members and guests to submit examples of rhymes, comments, and questions to that website. However, it should be noted that submissions to Cocojams are made through the contact page, but are not automatically posted on that website. That format is in place because that website I am the only person involved in that volunteer effort {except for some free but sporadic technical support from a friend}. I suppose that there could be some free or low cost means of providing automatic message posting to that site, but I prefer this format at this time because I am concerned about the probability of offensive postings on that website's pages.

Finally, let me say that it is a "fig newton" of flamenco ted's imagination that I have an "ongoing quest to 'out' racism wherever she can provoke it".


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:15 AM

Okay Shambles. I repeat-if you don't want that compliment, leave it be.

I am labouring the point that often what may be intended as a compliment can be thought to be something else. That what are genuine compliments are often thrown back as being patronising or worse and what the effect of that is on someone who is honestly considers that their intentions were honourable.

I am suggesting that before there is any question of someone's post being labelled as racist or sexist etc, that they are given the full benefit of any doubt. And that such labels are only used (if at all) when there is absolutely no doubt about the intention and before we make total war upon racists in our 'responses to racism' etc - that we recognise that most of the battles will first and always be with ourselves....


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:11 AM

Yo Shambles,
            We must be twins!! I had the same thought as you. ie We are being assessed for our naughty racist content. This thought was compounded when I looked at Miss Azizi Powells website entitled "TAUNTING RHYMES" If you scroll down to a section headed "RACE AND RACE RELATIONS" You will find that Miss Powell has lifted whole sections of this thread and reprinted it there, as part of her ongoing quest to 'out' racism wherever she can provoke it!
             Methinks the lady doth protest too much!


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:50 PM

How about a 'Not Totally Politically Correct BS' partition?

Would that work? Joe and the clones would have somwhere to move doubtful stuff to, The sensitive would have somewhere to avoid, or to go when they want to be insulted, the insensitive would have somewhere to ease the stress of using their PC muscles. It could be the only place where Guests are able to post. The same behavoural rules would have to apply concerning personal attacks and rampant bad manners.

I hesitated to post this in case it upset someone, but I don't see why the PC and easily hurt should entirely make the going, or we will get to the stage where humour is as rare as hen's teeth, and banality rules. Anything that someone says is likely rattle some other individual's perch.
Chris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:37 PM

Okay Shambles. I repeat-if you don't want that compliment, leave it be.

Or let me say it this way, if the shoe doesn't fit you don't have to wear it.

Or let me say it this way "Whatever, man."

And that's all I'm sayin about that.

****

GUEST, 22 Feb 06, I did not consider that joke to be silly.
Though I did not think so at the time, it appears others who read it or hear about it, also did not think that it was silly.

My intention for starting this thread was to share my opinions and feelings about that experience, and ask others what they thought would be appropriate responses to racism on this forum.

My intention was not to attack the poster of that offensive cut & paste "joke". Neither did then [and do I now]have the intention of of pondering the whys and wherefores of poster's action in starting that now deleted thread.

Also, you will note that I did not name his name. You did.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:05 PM

maybe tarheel is just a foolish old white man and not the evil racist everyone is implying. everybody around here seems to need a projective object for their bad impulses. it's rather boring, actually. hardly anyone on this thread has tried to be nice to tarheel in response to his silly jokes. how many people really know him to be a racist? what a witchhunt. like a pack of mad dogs, you people. you get more flies with honey and all that...still lord of the flies, i think...


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:05 PM

As to you or you all assuming me to be a racist if I didn't consider that this thread "spoke well of Mudcat", all I will say to that is assuming doesn't make it so. The proof is in the pudding.

I think you have this wrong. I meant that if you have not posted your approval - should we have considered that you thought us to be racist? Did we need your approval or disapproval?

Perhaps I am not explaining this well? It is a bit like receiving a post out of the blue saying that you are forgiven - when you are not sure what you may have needed to be forgiven for. Or indeed forgiven by.

Equally a post out of the blue saying that you were not forgiven - would tend to have a similar result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:50 PM

I agree Shambles that life is just not very easy.

But hopefully, we do the best we can and we try to keep on growing
"in spirit and in truth".

Again, my best wishes to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:47 PM

Oh Shambles, didn't ya mama teach you how to take a compliment?

She did indeed although it may have been possible that my mother had died or that for one reason or other I had been denied such motherly attention and your reference to my mother may have upset and offended me. It may have upset and offended others reading it?

But I am not much used to being given many compliments on our forum.

There is some that is intentional but perhaps you will accept that it is so very easy for all of to upset others and give offence - often when quite the opposite is the intention?

I was just pondering on the situations that we are often placed in by our attempts to deal with racism and not offend. I don't generally find young babies very interesting to look at but for some reason - babies of other racial groups do sometimes look very attractive (not sexually so I must add) and result in me adopting that gooey-eyed look and approach that some (usually) women have when they tend to see or hold any baby. Not a pretty sight and one to surely terrify any baby.

It is not that the sight of black babies is exotic or something that is rare. I may could compliment a black mother on how happy just seeing her child has made me for that moment. But I probably would not do so. It possibly may make her even more proud if I did but I would be worried that she may be insulted or think me patronising or worse. And to be honest, I would not be sure that I wasn't being patronising. Especially as I know that I would be very unlikely to feel to made to feel good by just seeing a white baby.

In fact as a man and for different reasons and wisely - I am very careful about not making any sort of contact with or paying any attention to young children in public.

Life is just not very easy - is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:36 PM

MiziAzizi,

Now, I fir one read nuff of your stuff to know that you sho nuff ain't no racist... Heck, there are sho nuff some dumbass white folks here and if you were a racist you'd have been down the road a long time ago...

Actually, I prolly still working thru some racism of my own since I am somewhat prejudical toward white men... Hey, most of 'um here are real cool but this is a danged folk music web site so one would expect that but, now, out in the real world??? Hmmmmmmmm??? Well, let me say that I am leary of a white guy until I know him...

Yeah, I've tried a couple things here on this thread and seems that I ain't gettin' nowhere with either of them... First I suggested that maybe a good dialouge on racism might be benefical for those folks who seem not to get the damage it has done our society... I've also asked that when folks come out with racist posts that these threads not be jerked out as if they never existed... We are grown-ups here and not kids and racism is a social problem that we all need to deal with... And we don't need to be protected either... What we need is an opportunity to talk about it... Or to rant... But we should be trusted to do the right thing... It ain't like someone just trying to trash the joint with foul juvinilistic foul language... It's a real, everyday problem that cries out fir real everyday reaction by real everyday folks...

I think we should be trusted to deal with the racists... If it digresses to threats and name calling then that's different but to pull it 'cause it smacks of racism, IMHO, ain't doing anyone any good...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM

Oh Shambles, didn't ya mama teach you how to take a compliment?

If you don't want that compliment, leave it be.

As to you or you all assuming me to be a racist if I didn't consider that this thread "spoke well of Mudcat", all I will say to that is assuming doesn't make it so. The proof is in the pudding.

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM

Bobert - On second thought - I must be wrong. I'm sure the positive affects of debating with you, Amos, Carol C and others has had a positive effect on Martin and we're seeing a kinder and more generious Martin emerge. I'm sure of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM

Bobert - I have always assumed that Martin's departure, and reappearence { and the slight change of tone on his part } were forced on him by the Mudcat powers that be. I'm guessing he was told to change his tune or get out forever. And faced with the propect of losing his key to the playground that he underwent a vasectomy. I could be wrong of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

Nah, Clinton, I believe there is... Yeah, there are folks who would appear to not be pursuaded like MG but if you look at his posts of today verses those of last year I think you'll see that even the most outragious have bent a little to the pressures of their peers...

Now, I'm not speaking for everyone but this joint does seem to police itself quite nicely even when Joe or Max don't intervene...

MO, of course...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Thanks again for your comments. IMO, the quality of this thread's discussion speaks well of Mudcat.
Azizi


Hmmmmmm? Ponder, ponder.

And if you considered it didn't speak well of Mudcat, could we all then assume that we were all being judged by you as being racist?

Do you think it is better for our forum and possibly safer, to try and avoid making public judgements (well-intentioned or not so well-intentioned) about other posters, on mass or as named individuals?

I feel it would probably cause less trouble if we just tried either to address or ignore what was being said in posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM

Janie, true apologies require that you apologize for your own behavior. Perhaps you are not offering a true apology. Nevertheless, I will accept your explanation and I appreciate your sharing.
I'm not clever enough to use letters for a name which spell out an insulting acronym unfortunatley. thanks for your feedback. Off to the convenience store to practice my restructuring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:30 PM

There's NO peer pressure on the internet....


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