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BS: America's shame

Wolfgang 21 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 21 Feb 06 - 10:57 AM
Epona 21 Feb 06 - 10:59 AM
Wesley S 21 Feb 06 - 11:07 AM
wysiwyg 21 Feb 06 - 11:10 AM
number 6 21 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM
freda underhill 21 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM
Epona 21 Feb 06 - 11:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 21 Feb 06 - 12:07 PM
Wolfgang 21 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM
GUEST 21 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM
Morticia 21 Feb 06 - 02:05 PM
Amos 21 Feb 06 - 02:12 PM
Epona 21 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM
akenaton 21 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM
wysiwyg 21 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM
Amos 21 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM
akenaton 21 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM
Epona 21 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM
freda underhill 21 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 21 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 06 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Shanghaiceltic 22 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 06 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,J C 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Feb 06 - 04:27 AM
Gervase 22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM
autolycus 22 Feb 06 - 05:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM
Ron Davies 22 Feb 06 - 07:36 AM
Bobert 22 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM
freda underhill 22 Feb 06 - 07:46 AM
Ron Davies 22 Feb 06 - 07:54 AM
Den 22 Feb 06 - 10:38 AM
freda underhill 22 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM
Bill D 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 22 Feb 06 - 01:04 PM
Greg F. 22 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM
autolycus 22 Feb 06 - 05:28 PM
TheBigPinkLad 22 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM
michaelr 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM
michaelr 22 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM
Marion 23 Feb 06 - 01:10 AM
GUEST,dianavan 23 Feb 06 - 03:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 06 - 06:55 AM
Amos 23 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

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Subject: BS: America's shame
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM

Well, I could have added this link to one of the many Iraq threads, but these threads use to degenerate after some time into mud slinging, that's why I start a new thread.

The link goes to the translation of a four part article in DER SPIEGEL. The article is about why the standing of the US government in the world is at an all-time low. I take the article title as the thread title with some hesitation for the word 'America' includes lots of fine people who are neither responsible for nor happy with the way the Bush government fights its war against terror.

America's shame

...the moral masters of the universe, these self-proclaimed forces of good so intent on bringing freedom and democracy to the world, have betrayed their own ideals and lost their credibility....
The images from Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib will endure, and they will haunt America for decades to come.


Wolfgang
    Link fixed.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:57 AM

you forgot the link


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Epona
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:59 AM

I would say they'll haunt America for longer then decades...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:07 AM

A much more accurate title for this thread would have the George Bush's shame don't you think ? It's happening on his watch. With the current title this thread should turn into a flame war in about 10 or 12 more posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:10 AM

The USA is not America. North America is a continent that includes the country of Canada. I hear Canadians get really, REALLY tired of people forgetting that.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM

you forgot Mexico. I can't say how they feel about people forgetting that.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM

A UN report describes Guantanamo Bay as an unlawful holding tank where prisoners are denied basic rights and are abused. The European Parliament, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch agree. The "military commission" process that will try some prisoners is so partisan that the U.S. Supreme Court will hear a challenge to its constitutionality. Military officers are judges and jurors. Evidence can be withheld from the accused. Coerced evidence is admissible. The right to appeal is very limited.

Jail conditions are unlawful. Prisoners are routinely abused. "Some of the techniques (used by U.S. interrogators), in particular the use of dogs, exposure to extreme temperatures, sleep deprivation for several consecutive days and prolonged isolation were perceived as causing severe suffering," the panel's 54-page report concludes. "The simultaneous use of these techniques is even more likely to amount to torture."

The White House rejects the report.

Meanwhile,in Iraq , more Abu Ghraib Abuse Photos are released February 15, 2006 by Australia's Special Broadcasting Service TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Epona
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:47 AM

That's very true. When people ask us where we're from, we say, "America." It would be more accurate to say the USA or "the states" I suppose. I was raised understanding that in North America, there is Canada, Mexico and America. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:07 PM

I went into the source code and found his link. There was a typo in the code.

America's shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM

Thanks, SRS. Usually I check whether what I post looks like I want it to look. I forgot that, sorry.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM

So nice to hear it from the German's, who have never done anything to be ashamed of.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Morticia
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:05 PM

there you go, Wolfgang, it took precisely 11 posts to degenerate away from the point and into personalities/nationalities/mud slinging........*sigh*.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:12 PM

WHile I completely and vociferously condemn the abuses of the current militant empire-seeking administration, I would submit that the United States is currently frawctured and divided into more defined subgroups than it has ever been before, as a result of those same inhyumane hijinks; and that many people in the United States have cleaved to their integrity and their vision of what the nation should be regardless of the maneuvers of those who try to drag it down into materialist depravity.

Knowing this, I do not share the shame you speak of as an American (a citizen of the United States); but I do derive a strong sense of embarassment at the proclivities of some of my fellow-citizens; it is something like trying to maintain a dinner party to which your insane and hyperactive cousin as unexpectedly shown up--the one you preferred no-one knew about. This sector of the American populace, to my mind, suffers from a deficiency in critical thought and a dramatic lack of humane idealism (although they seem to have other ideals, not humane ones). So although I am embarassed, i am not ashamed; yet.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Epona
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM

Very well said, Amos.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM

Might be well said....But what the f*** does it mean??


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

Morti, when you've endured a zillion anti-Britain threads, THEN tell USers they are a bit too sensitive on this issue. Also, Wolfgang hasn't stated a topic ABOUT this to discuss, he's just posted an "Ain't It Awful" blurb-- and where do we go from a start like that???

Amos, I'm with you. When you multiply what you describe by the amazing regional and ethnic varieties our enormous country comprises, it's a staggering sociological picture. I don't feel shame-- I feel concern at the odd alliances forming between sub-sub-sub-groups who, I think, would until very recently have been happy not to have the other(s) in their country at all, even if it is vast enough for there to be room for all of them with lots of buffer space if desired.

It's the reactive elements of each group, joining up. Why could they not have been inspired to allianaces on more positive platforms? What kinds of evil can they be stirred into that we can't even imagine yet? That's what I worry about.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM

Ake:

Sorry -- requires ability to leed Engrish.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

On BBC newsnight Tuesday.

A report by Human Rights First, a US group, alledges that almost 100 prisoners have been murdered or tortured to death in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces since August 2002.

Charges are rare and sentences light says the report, which will be published tomorrow ..Wednesday.

we are liberators not invaders :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Epona
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

Ake - I think it means he's not ashamed of being an American ("I do not share the shame you speak of as an American"), though he is most certainly embarassed by the actions and inclinations of some of his fellow Americans ("but I do derive a strong sense of embarassment at the proclivities of some of my fellow-citizens").

It's a fast bus, brother... :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

The occupying forces after WW2 (the US, among others) forced the Germans to take responsibility as a nation for Hitlers and their army's actions. and they have done so every since, fully taking responsibly, in their history classes, their documentaries, their academic records and in their legislation giving reparation to those who suffered and who survived.

It is sad that in this thread, the focus has been on quibbling, prevaricating, and denial.

In Australia we live with a past of genocide against the original indigenous Australians. Many of us acknowledge our past shames, and push our government to formally apologise. The blood is on all of our heads, by denying responsibility we perpetuate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM

Bring back the good old days when partisanship came down to arguments over the definition of the word "is"... Now asys you have millions of folks who have somehow rationalized their leaders violating international law and torturing people???

Who would have thunk it???

I mean, if Charles Manson has been given free rein in 2000 to write the most nightmarish future for the United States he couldn't have topped what we have seen starting with a stolen election, teh ignoring warnings about terrorism, then 9-11, the invading one Arab country after another that wasn't responsible for 9-11 and torturing it's citizens!!!

Yeah, Charles Manson couldn't have come up with anything so terrible and inhuman...

And so the US Congress passes a bill that says that the US doesn't engage in torture and Bush says the US doesn't engage in torture??? Meanwhile, everyone knows it goes on every day after Congress passed the anit-torture bnill Bush said that it didn't apply to him???

Is this embarrassing??? Well, yeah... But that's just for starters... Beyond embarrassing it constitutes war crimes...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM

GUEST 21 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM, I notice that you didn't have the guts to use your name or even a handle. Craven coward, sniping from the underbrush.

My response to this whole thing is cold fury. These so-called elected representatives in no way represent me. As a patriotic American—but even more, as a human being—I would like to see these "representatives" dragged before a tribunal such the World Court, or like that which was held at Nuremburg after World War II. No less!

With people like this in charge, America has lost any claim to "moral leadership." I am totally disgusted!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:33 PM

Correction. The United States has lost any claim to moral leadership.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM

The late attitude of the US Leadership has done bugger all to help dissidents worldwide (and not a few of them in prison here).

It is a bit like being bollocked by the playground bully for beating up your wee sister.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:04 AM

I wonder if all this Iraq mess is enough to damage the conservative movement in the U.S. and force them out of power. If there were an election today and Bush were running for a second term, would he be able to win? This should bring the Republican domination of the U.S. to an end - but unfortunately, the Democrats haven't been able to unite enough to take advantage of the situation.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 AM

Just watched a programme on a report by American lawyers which claims that around 100 prisoners have died in American custody in Afghanistan and Iraq (not counting those wounded in fighting).
30odd have died as a direct result of torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:27 AM

I think perhaps the most alarming thing(s) are not the individual cases, but the culture of abuse and worse the cynical redefinition of torture and "permitted practices" so that the USA no longer conformed to the standards of civilised countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM

I have to say, as an outside observer, that I find it incredible that the Republicans are still so strong in the USA and that the Democrats have failed so lamentably to capitalise on the cock-ups of the current administration.
Is it because Amos's insane cousins are hosting the dinner party, or are the Democrats incapable of organising themselves? Or is there really such a paucity of debate in the mass media that the majority doesn't actually know what crimes are being committed in its name?
Whatever the truth, it's worrying for us outside the USA. I know plenty of decent, intelligent and honourable Americans (in fact all those I know are bloody excellent), and yet as a country the USA would seem to be the biggest threat to our security (climatically, militarily, morally, economically and in almost every way) that there is.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:36 AM

Gervaise- I wonder if it is because both the U.S. parties are parties of the rich, AND TRHAT CURRENTLY YOU HAVE TO BE RICH TO GET GOIBG AS A PARTY   (sOrry - the caps were accidental).

Not for nothing do phrases exist like military-industrial complex, corporate America, and so on.

The populations are (mostly) literate and (mostly) ignorant. Thank goodness so many 'catters are so well informed that they can put us onto vital information. How the States is run is the result of a combination of education and ignorance, the mortgage, upbringing, religion and loads more.

Thread title should be the "U.S.'s shame" (or similar). I've read that Venezuelans too object to "America" being used as a synonym for the U.S.A. I always use U.S.,U.S.A., the United States, the States - we not exactly short of choice.

As far as I can see, the U.S. has a vast spectrum of people (obvious,innit?), so I no more put Americans (any synonyms?) in one box than any other group.

What's to be done about the dreadful things being done by Western Governments?

"it is an exceeedingly difficult point for modern man to understand and accept, the (person) and (their) supporting world must be in intimate contact ...........but if ......the (person), by virtue of fears and trepidations acquired in previous (experiences), does not dare iniate and take resposibility for the necessary contacts, then, since they must occur for life to go on, the initiative and resposibility are thrust upon the environment. Persons differ with respect to what part of the environment they expect to do this work. It may be, for instance, 'my folks', 'the government', 'society', or 'God'. Such agencies are supposed to 'supply me with what I need' or else 'm a k e   me do what I ought to do.'

In the quotation, first published 1951, "contact" is defined as "Your sense of the unitary interfunctioning of you and your environment".

And a first step to contact in the situation of us and ,let's say, the U.S. government is becoming better informed. It's not that the knowledge is unavailable, or that we are ill-educated.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM

I blame John Wayne, Errol Flynn and Kenneth More. somewhere along the line the idea got around that you could win a war and be a bloody decent chap.

I can't really understand these people - maybe naivety is okay when you're young. but these are some of the quite grown up people who were quite hot to trot at the start of the war.

Years ago I used to give guitar lessons to this old guy who had been in the Phillipines campaign in WW2. I said that must have been awful - you hear such terrible stories of what the Japanese did to their prisoners.

he said, well they were one up on us - we didn't take prisoners and by an large we didn't waste bullets on them - we finished them off with our army boots.

maybe that was just the outfit he was with...........

however you have seen films of the bombing on European cities in WW2. The poor devils having bombs rained on them must have been largely innocent of any crime. If so, you can see that war is the ultimate horror, and once you are in it - the only imperative is to win.

I can't believe that this stuff really outrages anybody. war ain't nice and you are in one.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:36 AM

I'm sure you all do in fact know why the Democrats have been unable to capitalize on Bush's misfortunes. It's because Bush pictures himself as a "war president" (albeit the war (on terrorism) is one he declared--and it will be never be over). And he has sold most of the US public on the notion that the US is at war. And many Democrats are deathly afraid of being smeared as unpatriotic for "not supporting the troops in a time of war" (i.e. Bush's war in Iraq). The Democrats have already seen how masterful the current administration is on precisely such a smear campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM

Joe Offers wonders if the Iraq mess is enough to derail the conservative movement???

No, sooner or later it all comes down to money and the bad folks have more than enough to buy the kind of advertising that get folks re-elected... Don't look for any mor 1994's... Different day and different game...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:46 AM

We have the same problem in Australia, Ron - opposition to the government is porttrayed as almost treason, by a very manipulative government. It's a horrible catch 22.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:54 AM

Freda--that's depressing. Especially since Australia isn't at war, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Den
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:38 AM

Power corrupts...you know the rest. I think the most frightening thing about it all is who will stop the current US administration doing exactly what it wants when it wants?


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM

we're in there too, Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

The Republicans get power by appealing to special interest sub-groups...telling people what they want to hear on topics that do not necessarily relate to how certain serious issues are going to be approached.
(You didn't hear any campaign slogans saying "Your freedoms will be curtailed as we strive to reshape the world to our own strictly conservative ideals, and we will use ANY methods we choose to accomplish this!"

What you heard was "we will fight terrorism to protect you"..etc...

Any nation with an electoral process can temporarily be hijacked by amoral leaders with bad judgement who lie and/or dissemble (look it up) to get control, then rely on hiding the truth to KEEP power.

Once John Q. Public has voted FOR a party or person, he tends to want to believe he made a good choice, and resists believing that they are incompetent or immoral or downright evil. (Remember how Nixon was defended by many until it was totally clear what he & his minons had done!)....The problem is, what Nixon was did was mostly internal to the USA, while Bush is bombing and torturing 'guys we don't like much, anyway'.

It is too bad that articles have to be titled "America's Shame" to get attention, as there are many millions of Americans who are not fooled by the idiocy and immoral attitude of the current administration. Sadly, in a democracy, it only takes a few hundred disputed votes in one state to set in motion a series of events which make an entire country appear to be using muscle to impose its will on others by force.

It is embarrassing....as well as expensive and dangerous, for us to endure this, but we have 3 more years of it before we can correct it and for the Democrats to figure out how to elect a better bunch without relying on the same underhanded tactics as the Republicans in the process.

   I do not know how bad America's (it is common to use the term...no one thinks you mean Canada & Mexico)image will be by 2008, but I shudder to imagine! We do get a new President then, but I fear the same tactics will be employed with the message..."We know Bush embarrassed many of you, but TRUST us with another Republican who won't be 'quite' as stupid."

It is an interesting experience to be old enough to remember when the USA was mostly respected and admired and to see that way it has changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:04 PM

Ron, I think the point you make is an important one. President Bush has been all too eager to define himself as a "war president" since 9/11, because that supposedly justifies any excess, and absolves him of blame for any failure. But it really depends on how one defines a "war". In one sense or another, the US has been "at war" for decades: the Cold War lasted from the late 1940s to the late 1980s, and there have been numerous US military efforts in countries all around the globe during and since that time.

If you say that we are "at war" whenever we put the military into a situation where people are fighting and dying, then we are in a more or less constant state of war, and whatever license that status extends to the President is also perpetual. On the other hand, if you define "war" as a declared war, we haven't been at war since 1945. Obviously, though, the President has siezed the rhetorical advantages that the "war on terror" provides, and is happy to promote the idea that this means he should be judged by a different standard.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM

The Republicans get power by appealing to the brain-dead and the feeble-minded who are unable to see through their patent bullshit- even when it has been proven over and over to BE bullshit.

Don't blame the Pols- they lie if they can get away with it. That's what they've always done.

Put the blame on the electorate where it belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM

The electorate deserves plenty of blame for not taking the time to sift thru the rhetoric and see the underlying fallacies....but it is not always easy. People have lives to live and bills to pay....

The blessing of a Democracy is that almost everyone gets to vote. The problem with a Democracy is that almost everyone gets to vote, not just the ones who think.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:28 PM

"Votes should be weighed, not counted." Schiller, early 19th century.

Bill D. my point about the naming of the U.S. wasn't about a name which understandable, but about how people elsewhere in the Americas feel about the U.S. having the all-embracing "America" for itself when they are also in "America"

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

When it seems to everyone but everyone that things are not going well, do you ever wonder who is running the people who run the people who run the people?

Long, but interesting (and scary) article in Rolling Stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

Seeing what my adopted country does with the taxes I pay bothers me a whole lot more than being born German ever did.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM

That Brownback lunatic should go live in Iran. That should be right up his alley. Sharia law RULES!!


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Marion
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:10 AM

Bill D. my point about the naming of the U.S. wasn't about a name which understandable, but about how people elsewhere in the Americas feel about the U.S. having the all-embracing "America" for itself when they are also in "America"


I can't speak for Venezuelans, but as a Canadian: I never call myself an American, nor do I recall hearing any other Canadian do so. Occasionally it's useful to speak of "North Americans", which includes us of course, but not plain "Americans". The only people I hear using the word so generally are well-intended but misinformed Americans.

I've got to agree with Bill D. - going along with the common usage of a word (i.e., that America=USA) is more helpful to communication than using a word to mean what you think it should mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:12 AM

True enough. Most Canadians refer to Americans as North Americans.

Why should they get to define themselves as Americans when in fact there are three countries in North America and many more in Central and South America?

What makes them more American than anyone else on these two continents?

Maybe now that they are not so united and have fallen from glory, citizens of the U.S. will now be referred to as Staters.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:55 AM

There's a danger in the line weelittledrummer takes there -"I can't believe that this stuff really outrages anybody. war ain't nice and you are in one."

It's true enough that atrocities of one sort or another are pretty well inevitable in a war. But it is important that they should always be a cause of horror and disgust to people at home, and denied official sanction. When that ceases to be the case there is no barrier against them overwhelming the fragile defences society has against them.

There's an element of hypocrisy in this, but when Oscar Wilde described hypocrisy as "the tribute vice pays to virtue" he wasn't just being flippant, he was stating a truth.

When we stop feeling shock and horror at atrocities like Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo Bay, and learn to accept that that is just the way things are in war, we open the way to the next step, which isn't a rejection of all war, it's for things like Auschwitz to become acceptable and accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM

The outrage lies in the abandonment of principle, that even under the duress of war, a respect for core human decency should govern our actions. ANd that when forced away from that respect by the heat of mortal conflict, we should try to return to it as soon as we can breathe easily.

This puts an awful burden of cognitive dissonance on an individual charged with doing the killing. Or the interrogation. And moral fiber is not what our youth are best known for, let alone our military trainees. But we kind of expect it in our over-fed leaders, who don't spend a lot of time facing mortal threat.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM

our over-fed leaders, who don't spend a lot of time facing mortal threat. More's the pity.

By which I don't mean to recommend the custom of assassination, but rather that the right place for a King, or whatever we call him, is at the head of his army. That would reduce the attraction of going to war frivolously.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

Whatever happened to the adage that "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones?"


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Mudcat time: 26 September 11:34 AM EDT

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