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BS: America's shame

autolycus 26 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM
Wolfgang 26 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM
Ron Davies 25 Feb 06 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,dianavan 25 Feb 06 - 02:56 PM
Lonesome EJ 25 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM
Ron Davies 25 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Marion 25 Feb 06 - 08:26 AM
autolycus 25 Feb 06 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,dianavan 24 Feb 06 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,dianavan 24 Feb 06 - 09:04 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 06 - 01:16 PM
Amos 24 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM
Bill D 24 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM
Amos 23 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 06 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,dianavan 23 Feb 06 - 03:12 AM
Marion 23 Feb 06 - 01:10 AM
michaelr 22 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM
michaelr 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM
TheBigPinkLad 22 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM
autolycus 22 Feb 06 - 05:28 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM
Greg F. 22 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 22 Feb 06 - 01:04 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM
freda underhill 22 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM
Den 22 Feb 06 - 10:38 AM
Ron Davies 22 Feb 06 - 07:54 AM
freda underhill 22 Feb 06 - 07:46 AM
Bobert 22 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM
Ron Davies 22 Feb 06 - 07:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM
autolycus 22 Feb 06 - 05:36 AM
Gervase 22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Feb 06 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,J C 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 AM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 06 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Shanghaiceltic 22 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM
Don Firth 21 Feb 06 - 08:33 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 21 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM
freda underhill 21 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM
Epona 21 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM
akenaton 21 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM
Amos 21 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM
wysiwyg 21 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM

I think any country can comment on any country, including its own. And no-one or no country is within their rights to say that there is any country not allowed to do so.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

Maybe I should say something after this thread seems to be finished.

(1) My only intention was to provide a view from outside, because that can be interesting sometimes. My perception is that (a few harsh words and the generalising title ignored) this view is shared by many of my compatriotes. I happen to agree with many statements and opinions in the article, but that's just BTW.
(2) If only those of us who come from countries that have never done wrongs and committed crimes in history were allowed to comment on other countries, we could close the BS section as far as politics is debated.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:11 PM

But LEJ--just compare this Iraq war with the first Bush's Iraq war--especially insofar as international support was sought--and won--before a move was made.

The degree to which the US acts unilaterally, heedless of international views, is far greater under W than any other recent president--see the so-called "Bush doctrine". It's the allegation that pre-emptive war is fine foreign policy which alienates much of the world--and many Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 02:56 PM

"With the fall of the Soviets, the power of the US has seemed less necessary to Europeans, and the US's ability to act unilaterally, due to the lack of a formidable opponent, is both resented and feared."

You got that right!

This has been a long time coming and the people of the U.S., rather than heed the concerns of the rest of the world, have basked in glory completely oblivious to their recklessness.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

It may sound like a sacrilege, but the world's anger and resentment of the United States goes back farther than George Bush and the Republican regime. Anyone remember Somalia? Kuwait? Bosnia? How about Granada, El Salvadore, or Chile? Anyone remember a place called Vietnam? Anytime the US has intervened with our military, particularly without UN endorsement, it has brought down a storm of criticism. In Vietnam, our soldiers burned villages and threw prisoners out of helicopters.
I am no fan of George Bush, but to uncover the sorces of resentment against America, I believe you have to look deeper than the actions of the current administration. Kennedy, Johnson, Bush Sr, Clinton all took their lumps for unilateral military actions.
I believe the reasons for resentment lie primarily in these areas :
A) At one time, the United States was the only country on earth to create itself in the image of a republic ruled by its own people. This while the rest of the world was ruled by monarchies and dictatorship. As such, the US became the model for the common man's struggle against oppressive rule, and it's success gave direct impetus to the overthrow of Kings and dictators all over the world. This dissemination has taken root, and most countries on Earth now enjoy at least some level of democratic self-rule, and the idea is no longer strongly associated with the US.
B) During the Cold War and the many hot wars within it, the US was perceived by most as the defender of Europe and the West against the power of the USSR and China, and as such, a certain amount of slack was cut for Anmerica in the interest of protecting freedom and democracy. With the fall of the Soviets, the power of the US has seemed less necessary to Europeans, and the US's ability to act unilaterally, due to the lack of a formidable opponent, is both resented and feared.
C)American Culture with its films, music, fast food restaurants, and consumerism, like it or not, has become the dominating cultural paradigm on Earth. This is resented in many areas where the native culture is being seen to be overwhelmed, but paricularly in Islamic States, where the feel-good trappings of American Culture run counter to the puritanical nature of the Islamic belief system, and where commonly accepted freedoms such as the freedom of expression and women's rights are often viewed as dangerous and irreligious.

The US is, and continues to be, a country ruled by the will of its people. It is a country born with a glorious vision that I believe we still strive toward, and have at times attained. The fact is that the majority of its people supported the incursion into Iraq. The majority of its people voted to elect a Republican majority in its Senate and Congress, and to elect a Republican president. The people's power will again be expressed in the mid-term elections, and I hope that the Democrats will regain a majority. This may have an impact on the immediate situation in Iraq, but I believe it will have no impact whatsoever on the factors I have noted above.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM

The main shame of the US is that there were enough yahoos or people panicked by the Bush regime's propaganda campaigns to 1) support the Iraq invasion and 2) vote for Bush in 2004.   Still haven't heard of any Bush voter who didn't do it primarily due to hate and/or fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 08:26 AM

Hi Ivor. No, I didn't realize that you were distinguishing between the country name and the name for the people, so I just picked one to make my sentences simpler. However, my point is the same about the country word: Canadians mean the US when we say "America". We never use just "America" to include Canada (only "North America", or less commonly "the Americas"). We don't feel offended when an American uses "America" to mean only the US; on the contrary, many of us would feel offended to hear Canada lumped in as "America".

I haven't interviewed every single Canadian on this matter, but I've lived here long enough and lived/travelled in enough regions to have a good sense of the common usage.

Maybe you're right about Brazilians - I have no idea.

Cheers, Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:53 AM

Marion and Dianavan - Dianavan got my point , which was about the name of the country not the name of its inhabitants (Staters is possible bgut sounds rather awkward). And then you lost it again, reverting to callling the US America.

Yes, America is familiar terminology, but goodness me, so are United States, the States, USA. Surely?

My point was not so much that Brazilians mind Americans being called Americans, but minding the USA being called America.


WYSIWYG made the same point near the beginning, and as for glass houses and other perfect countries, nobody is saying any country is perfect; that is why every country can be examined and called to account. And in freedom-loving democracies, criticism (which can be constructive) and calling-to-account is part of their raison d'etre.

If we stick to glass house and motes and beams quotes as iron laws, most of the BS threads would cease to be, would meet the quire invisible, would have the curtain rung down on them. The Iraq war is partly a manifestation of criticism of another country. Constructive? See Wolfgang's original posting.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 09:36 PM

Yes, Wolfgang, America will be ashamed for a very long time.

At present, my biggest fear is the Avian flu which has surfaced in Iraq. As we know, many diseases are brought 'home' by soldiers. In the case of the Avian flu, all it needs to become a pandemic is for the virus to be transmitted from human to human. This has not yet happened but Iraq is fertile ground for such a thing to occur.

With so much stife, it will be very difficult to contain the virus. In addition, clean water is a commodity (you can thank Hallibuton for that), and it will be almost impossible to treat because of the lack of hospitals and other medical facilities. It is not too hard to imagine that combined with the affects of war, the U.S. will be partly responsible for the spread of the Avian flu.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 09:04 PM

My guess is that if the U.S.A. were called Lucia, God would be in his grave. Whether or not he could shed it would be another matter.

Maybe it means he would shed his gravity and try to attain the same height as Lucia, star of the morning.

Amos, you are far too poetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:16 PM

"God shed his grave on thee!"...??????????

Freudian slip, Amos? *grin* (yes, yes, the 'c' IS right beside the 'v')


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM

If Vespucci had been named Luigi instead of Amerigo, would the continent be called North Luica, and the United States be states of Luica as well?

Oh, Luica! For gracious skies
For amber waves of grain!
For purple mountain' majesty
Above a fruited plain!
Oh, Luica, oh, Luica!
God shed his grave on thee!
And crown thy good
With brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!


Hmmmmm....it does have a certain ring to it. Should I copyright it?? :D

For I'm proud to be a Luican
Where at least I know I'm free...


Hmmmmmmm.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM

Re: the Republicans still being in power, it could be because of the voting machines that can quite easily be hacked into and that don't leave any kind of paper trail.

On the other hand, I really don't think the Democrats would have been much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

re: name of country.

What if Amerigo Vespucci had been named Luigi instead?

My only real point above was that is is always sad when generalizations about ANY country, race, culture or religion get applied with too broad a brush. There are certainly points to be made about the current way the USA is being led, but when the comments get really heavy, I always want to know what perfect country YOU live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM

Can't see how it's in any way relevent in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

Whatever happened to the adage that "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones?"


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM

our over-fed leaders, who don't spend a lot of time facing mortal threat. More's the pity.

By which I don't mean to recommend the custom of assassination, but rather that the right place for a King, or whatever we call him, is at the head of his army. That would reduce the attraction of going to war frivolously.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM

The outrage lies in the abandonment of principle, that even under the duress of war, a respect for core human decency should govern our actions. ANd that when forced away from that respect by the heat of mortal conflict, we should try to return to it as soon as we can breathe easily.

This puts an awful burden of cognitive dissonance on an individual charged with doing the killing. Or the interrogation. And moral fiber is not what our youth are best known for, let alone our military trainees. But we kind of expect it in our over-fed leaders, who don't spend a lot of time facing mortal threat.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:55 AM

There's a danger in the line weelittledrummer takes there -"I can't believe that this stuff really outrages anybody. war ain't nice and you are in one."

It's true enough that atrocities of one sort or another are pretty well inevitable in a war. But it is important that they should always be a cause of horror and disgust to people at home, and denied official sanction. When that ceases to be the case there is no barrier against them overwhelming the fragile defences society has against them.

There's an element of hypocrisy in this, but when Oscar Wilde described hypocrisy as "the tribute vice pays to virtue" he wasn't just being flippant, he was stating a truth.

When we stop feeling shock and horror at atrocities like Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo Bay, and learn to accept that that is just the way things are in war, we open the way to the next step, which isn't a rejection of all war, it's for things like Auschwitz to become acceptable and accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:12 AM

True enough. Most Canadians refer to Americans as North Americans.

Why should they get to define themselves as Americans when in fact there are three countries in North America and many more in Central and South America?

What makes them more American than anyone else on these two continents?

Maybe now that they are not so united and have fallen from glory, citizens of the U.S. will now be referred to as Staters.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Marion
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:10 AM

Bill D. my point about the naming of the U.S. wasn't about a name which understandable, but about how people elsewhere in the Americas feel about the U.S. having the all-embracing "America" for itself when they are also in "America"


I can't speak for Venezuelans, but as a Canadian: I never call myself an American, nor do I recall hearing any other Canadian do so. Occasionally it's useful to speak of "North Americans", which includes us of course, but not plain "Americans". The only people I hear using the word so generally are well-intended but misinformed Americans.

I've got to agree with Bill D. - going along with the common usage of a word (i.e., that America=USA) is more helpful to communication than using a word to mean what you think it should mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM

That Brownback lunatic should go live in Iran. That should be right up his alley. Sharia law RULES!!


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

Seeing what my adopted country does with the taxes I pay bothers me a whole lot more than being born German ever did.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

When it seems to everyone but everyone that things are not going well, do you ever wonder who is running the people who run the people who run the people?

Long, but interesting (and scary) article in Rolling Stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:28 PM

"Votes should be weighed, not counted." Schiller, early 19th century.

Bill D. my point about the naming of the U.S. wasn't about a name which understandable, but about how people elsewhere in the Americas feel about the U.S. having the all-embracing "America" for itself when they are also in "America"

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM

The electorate deserves plenty of blame for not taking the time to sift thru the rhetoric and see the underlying fallacies....but it is not always easy. People have lives to live and bills to pay....

The blessing of a Democracy is that almost everyone gets to vote. The problem with a Democracy is that almost everyone gets to vote, not just the ones who think.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM

The Republicans get power by appealing to the brain-dead and the feeble-minded who are unable to see through their patent bullshit- even when it has been proven over and over to BE bullshit.

Don't blame the Pols- they lie if they can get away with it. That's what they've always done.

Put the blame on the electorate where it belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:04 PM

Ron, I think the point you make is an important one. President Bush has been all too eager to define himself as a "war president" since 9/11, because that supposedly justifies any excess, and absolves him of blame for any failure. But it really depends on how one defines a "war". In one sense or another, the US has been "at war" for decades: the Cold War lasted from the late 1940s to the late 1980s, and there have been numerous US military efforts in countries all around the globe during and since that time.

If you say that we are "at war" whenever we put the military into a situation where people are fighting and dying, then we are in a more or less constant state of war, and whatever license that status extends to the President is also perpetual. On the other hand, if you define "war" as a declared war, we haven't been at war since 1945. Obviously, though, the President has siezed the rhetorical advantages that the "war on terror" provides, and is happy to promote the idea that this means he should be judged by a different standard.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

The Republicans get power by appealing to special interest sub-groups...telling people what they want to hear on topics that do not necessarily relate to how certain serious issues are going to be approached.
(You didn't hear any campaign slogans saying "Your freedoms will be curtailed as we strive to reshape the world to our own strictly conservative ideals, and we will use ANY methods we choose to accomplish this!"

What you heard was "we will fight terrorism to protect you"..etc...

Any nation with an electoral process can temporarily be hijacked by amoral leaders with bad judgement who lie and/or dissemble (look it up) to get control, then rely on hiding the truth to KEEP power.

Once John Q. Public has voted FOR a party or person, he tends to want to believe he made a good choice, and resists believing that they are incompetent or immoral or downright evil. (Remember how Nixon was defended by many until it was totally clear what he & his minons had done!)....The problem is, what Nixon was did was mostly internal to the USA, while Bush is bombing and torturing 'guys we don't like much, anyway'.

It is too bad that articles have to be titled "America's Shame" to get attention, as there are many millions of Americans who are not fooled by the idiocy and immoral attitude of the current administration. Sadly, in a democracy, it only takes a few hundred disputed votes in one state to set in motion a series of events which make an entire country appear to be using muscle to impose its will on others by force.

It is embarrassing....as well as expensive and dangerous, for us to endure this, but we have 3 more years of it before we can correct it and for the Democrats to figure out how to elect a better bunch without relying on the same underhanded tactics as the Republicans in the process.

   I do not know how bad America's (it is common to use the term...no one thinks you mean Canada & Mexico)image will be by 2008, but I shudder to imagine! We do get a new President then, but I fear the same tactics will be employed with the message..."We know Bush embarrassed many of you, but TRUST us with another Republican who won't be 'quite' as stupid."

It is an interesting experience to be old enough to remember when the USA was mostly respected and admired and to see that way it has changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:45 AM

we're in there too, Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Den
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:38 AM

Power corrupts...you know the rest. I think the most frightening thing about it all is who will stop the current US administration doing exactly what it wants when it wants?


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:54 AM

Freda--that's depressing. Especially since Australia isn't at war, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:46 AM

We have the same problem in Australia, Ron - opposition to the government is porttrayed as almost treason, by a very manipulative government. It's a horrible catch 22.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM

Joe Offers wonders if the Iraq mess is enough to derail the conservative movement???

No, sooner or later it all comes down to money and the bad folks have more than enough to buy the kind of advertising that get folks re-elected... Don't look for any mor 1994's... Different day and different game...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:36 AM

I'm sure you all do in fact know why the Democrats have been unable to capitalize on Bush's misfortunes. It's because Bush pictures himself as a "war president" (albeit the war (on terrorism) is one he declared--and it will be never be over). And he has sold most of the US public on the notion that the US is at war. And many Democrats are deathly afraid of being smeared as unpatriotic for "not supporting the troops in a time of war" (i.e. Bush's war in Iraq). The Democrats have already seen how masterful the current administration is on precisely such a smear campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM

I blame John Wayne, Errol Flynn and Kenneth More. somewhere along the line the idea got around that you could win a war and be a bloody decent chap.

I can't really understand these people - maybe naivety is okay when you're young. but these are some of the quite grown up people who were quite hot to trot at the start of the war.

Years ago I used to give guitar lessons to this old guy who had been in the Phillipines campaign in WW2. I said that must have been awful - you hear such terrible stories of what the Japanese did to their prisoners.

he said, well they were one up on us - we didn't take prisoners and by an large we didn't waste bullets on them - we finished them off with our army boots.

maybe that was just the outfit he was with...........

however you have seen films of the bombing on European cities in WW2. The poor devils having bombs rained on them must have been largely innocent of any crime. If so, you can see that war is the ultimate horror, and once you are in it - the only imperative is to win.

I can't believe that this stuff really outrages anybody. war ain't nice and you are in one.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:36 AM

Gervaise- I wonder if it is because both the U.S. parties are parties of the rich, AND TRHAT CURRENTLY YOU HAVE TO BE RICH TO GET GOIBG AS A PARTY   (sOrry - the caps were accidental).

Not for nothing do phrases exist like military-industrial complex, corporate America, and so on.

The populations are (mostly) literate and (mostly) ignorant. Thank goodness so many 'catters are so well informed that they can put us onto vital information. How the States is run is the result of a combination of education and ignorance, the mortgage, upbringing, religion and loads more.

Thread title should be the "U.S.'s shame" (or similar). I've read that Venezuelans too object to "America" being used as a synonym for the U.S.A. I always use U.S.,U.S.A., the United States, the States - we not exactly short of choice.

As far as I can see, the U.S. has a vast spectrum of people (obvious,innit?), so I no more put Americans (any synonyms?) in one box than any other group.

What's to be done about the dreadful things being done by Western Governments?

"it is an exceeedingly difficult point for modern man to understand and accept, the (person) and (their) supporting world must be in intimate contact ...........but if ......the (person), by virtue of fears and trepidations acquired in previous (experiences), does not dare iniate and take resposibility for the necessary contacts, then, since they must occur for life to go on, the initiative and resposibility are thrust upon the environment. Persons differ with respect to what part of the environment they expect to do this work. It may be, for instance, 'my folks', 'the government', 'society', or 'God'. Such agencies are supposed to 'supply me with what I need' or else 'm a k e   me do what I ought to do.'

In the quotation, first published 1951, "contact" is defined as "Your sense of the unitary interfunctioning of you and your environment".

And a first step to contact in the situation of us and ,let's say, the U.S. government is becoming better informed. It's not that the knowledge is unavailable, or that we are ill-educated.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM

I have to say, as an outside observer, that I find it incredible that the Republicans are still so strong in the USA and that the Democrats have failed so lamentably to capitalise on the cock-ups of the current administration.
Is it because Amos's insane cousins are hosting the dinner party, or are the Democrats incapable of organising themselves? Or is there really such a paucity of debate in the mass media that the majority doesn't actually know what crimes are being committed in its name?
Whatever the truth, it's worrying for us outside the USA. I know plenty of decent, intelligent and honourable Americans (in fact all those I know are bloody excellent), and yet as a country the USA would seem to be the biggest threat to our security (climatically, militarily, morally, economically and in almost every way) that there is.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:27 AM

I think perhaps the most alarming thing(s) are not the individual cases, but the culture of abuse and worse the cynical redefinition of torture and "permitted practices" so that the USA no longer conformed to the standards of civilised countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 AM

Just watched a programme on a report by American lawyers which claims that around 100 prisoners have died in American custody in Afghanistan and Iraq (not counting those wounded in fighting).
30odd have died as a direct result of torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:04 AM

I wonder if all this Iraq mess is enough to damage the conservative movement in the U.S. and force them out of power. If there were an election today and Bush were running for a second term, would he be able to win? This should bring the Republican domination of the U.S. to an end - but unfortunately, the Democrats haven't been able to unite enough to take advantage of the situation.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM

The late attitude of the US Leadership has done bugger all to help dissidents worldwide (and not a few of them in prison here).

It is a bit like being bollocked by the playground bully for beating up your wee sister.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:33 PM

Correction. The United States has lost any claim to moral leadership.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:30 PM

GUEST 21 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM, I notice that you didn't have the guts to use your name or even a handle. Craven coward, sniping from the underbrush.

My response to this whole thing is cold fury. These so-called elected representatives in no way represent me. As a patriotic American—but even more, as a human being—I would like to see these "representatives" dragged before a tribunal such the World Court, or like that which was held at Nuremburg after World War II. No less!

With people like this in charge, America has lost any claim to "moral leadership." I am totally disgusted!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM

Bring back the good old days when partisanship came down to arguments over the definition of the word "is"... Now asys you have millions of folks who have somehow rationalized their leaders violating international law and torturing people???

Who would have thunk it???

I mean, if Charles Manson has been given free rein in 2000 to write the most nightmarish future for the United States he couldn't have topped what we have seen starting with a stolen election, teh ignoring warnings about terrorism, then 9-11, the invading one Arab country after another that wasn't responsible for 9-11 and torturing it's citizens!!!

Yeah, Charles Manson couldn't have come up with anything so terrible and inhuman...

And so the US Congress passes a bill that says that the US doesn't engage in torture and Bush says the US doesn't engage in torture??? Meanwhile, everyone knows it goes on every day after Congress passed the anit-torture bnill Bush said that it didn't apply to him???

Is this embarrassing??? Well, yeah... But that's just for starters... Beyond embarrassing it constitutes war crimes...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

The occupying forces after WW2 (the US, among others) forced the Germans to take responsibility as a nation for Hitlers and their army's actions. and they have done so every since, fully taking responsibly, in their history classes, their documentaries, their academic records and in their legislation giving reparation to those who suffered and who survived.

It is sad that in this thread, the focus has been on quibbling, prevaricating, and denial.

In Australia we live with a past of genocide against the original indigenous Australians. Many of us acknowledge our past shames, and push our government to formally apologise. The blood is on all of our heads, by denying responsibility we perpetuate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Epona
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

Ake - I think it means he's not ashamed of being an American ("I do not share the shame you speak of as an American"), though he is most certainly embarassed by the actions and inclinations of some of his fellow Americans ("but I do derive a strong sense of embarassment at the proclivities of some of my fellow-citizens").

It's a fast bus, brother... :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

On BBC newsnight Tuesday.

A report by Human Rights First, a US group, alledges that almost 100 prisoners have been murdered or tortured to death in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces since August 2002.

Charges are rare and sentences light says the report, which will be published tomorrow ..Wednesday.

we are liberators not invaders :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM

Ake:

Sorry -- requires ability to leed Engrish.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: America's shame
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

Morti, when you've endured a zillion anti-Britain threads, THEN tell USers they are a bit too sensitive on this issue. Also, Wolfgang hasn't stated a topic ABOUT this to discuss, he's just posted an "Ain't It Awful" blurb-- and where do we go from a start like that???

Amos, I'm with you. When you multiply what you describe by the amazing regional and ethnic varieties our enormous country comprises, it's a staggering sociological picture. I don't feel shame-- I feel concern at the odd alliances forming between sub-sub-sub-groups who, I think, would until very recently have been happy not to have the other(s) in their country at all, even if it is vast enough for there to be room for all of them with lots of buffer space if desired.

It's the reactive elements of each group, joining up. Why could they not have been inspired to allianaces on more positive platforms? What kinds of evil can they be stirred into that we can't even imagine yet? That's what I worry about.

~Susan


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