BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here

Subject: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM

Our soldiers die because the US has gay people

WTF is wrong with people?!?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:43 PM

Damn - That is F'ed up.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM

I mean sure.... sayig "these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms" is a total load of bullflop, but at least SOMEONE is standing up to this hate-spewing religious a$$hole!

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM

Thank goodness they are standing up to his hate. We experienced it firsthand when they came to disrupt the funeral of Mathew Shephard in WY. That was one day I was really proud of mostly conservative Wyomingites. They said NO to him and left him blowing hot air.

The illogic of his arguments and the way he expresses them is mind-boggling.

Thanks, CH, for letting us know about this. May the bikers receive tons of support and continue on their mission of honour.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM

Sick!!

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

This guy is a real nut job, he came to Canada a few years ago to denounce the country for for being "fag lovers". I believe that he was kicked out and told he would be arrested if he tried to enter Canada again.

Here's an example of the kind of crap that he spews:

"A good left hook makes for a right fine wife. Brethren, they can lock us up, but we'll still do what the Bible tells us to do. Either our wives are going to obey, or we're going to beat them!"

From his bio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev._Fred_Phelps

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:05 PM

Interesting -- perverts come in all sorts of disguises, I guess!

A

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:11 PM

Much like prtesting enviormental protection because it goes against God's Rapture. By the way the Rapture is much like the gopher in Winnie the Pooh - its not in the book.


My favorite all time protestors were the Republican DC Congressional staffers who dressed down, went to Florida and beat on the doors of the election tabulation office until the recount was called off by a shift supervisor.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

" From his bio at http://en.wikipedia.org"

Wow... and I thought -I- was fked up!!!

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:16 PM

Well, in a lifetime of reading news about America this story exceeds anything. Is humanity undergoing reverse evolution?

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Alba
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:17 PM

"perverts come in all sorts of disguises"

My line of work has shown me, unfortunately, that your remark is more true than I care to think about Amos.


Thanks for posting this Clinton. Your right on the money, that is sooo F'd up. If only this waste of oxygen didn't exsist but he does and many others think just like him.
:(
J

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:41 PM

These are people who consider themselves the "religious right" or so called Christians. I call them all UNchristians. They forget the very basics of Christianity. Just like radical and extremist Muslims, they use "religion" to spew their hate. They are so UNchristian it is pathetic. We all need to call them on it on every occasion--UNCHRISTIAN!! And God forgive them.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:41 PM

On the other hand, the more it is exposed, the more the pendulum will swing the other way; there were not bikers or other groups who were so well-formed specifically to hound and drown him out (back in WY). Anything like this can help to expose the extremists and help those in the middle somewhere to raise their voices.

Don't ya wish people like him would have their own little Rapture like a sci-fi raygun that'd just zap him out of existence?

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:54 PM

" I call them all UNchristians."

Logical fallacy... "No True Scotsman"

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:09 PM

Phelps has been around doing this kind of stuff for a long time. Every time you think he has reached the limit he finds some new group to target with his vitreol.

He's an old fart. Maybe when Ahab Phelps dies the sick obsessions that hound him will be buried. Perhaps those who follow him don't have the momentum to keep the hate going by themselves.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:17 PM

I've heard that people like this are called "oxygen thiefs" by the younger generation.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM

IMO, people who believe that this nation's soldiers die because "the USA embraces homosexuals" are beyond crazy.

First of all, this nation's laws don't favor homosexuals as the word "embrace" seems to imply.

Secondly, even if a person considered a nation's laws wrong, funerals are neither the time nor the place for protest.

Didn't these protesters' parents teach them about showing respect for other people?

Oh, right. They probably were taught that homosexuals weren't people.
And the beat goes on.

"Crazy" is too mild a word for Phelps and his followers.

May Phelps and his followers be reincarnated as homosexuals so that they can learn that sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether a person is good, bad, or indifferent.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

May the Reverend Phelps spend eternity being buggered in a neverending Satanic gangbang.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:15 PM

I think I should be noted that this group of whackos is pretty small, limited chiefly to Rev. Phelps and his "extended family." Here's the quote from the article Clinton linked to:

The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family members.
During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the funerals of AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate group by the Montgomery, Ala.-based Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project.

There's certainly no doubt that these people are crazies. Even Pat Robertson wouldn't go this far.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:23 PM

It doesn't take too many "crazies" to do a lot of harm to people.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:31 PM

"limited chiefly to Rev. Phelps and his "extended family."

People he's beaten, bloodied and bullied into submission and shell-shock... calling him an animal is insulting to everything that lives.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:33 PM

Azizi - these people are one step toward that reincarnation - they are a***holes already.

Bikers have, in the past, had a bit of a reputation and it's good to see them getting some positive press. More power to their elbow I say.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

Clinton, for once I agree with you. We are NOT in Iraq to save our freedom!

Any good shrink will tell you that the basis of all hatred is fear. Why is this creep afraid? Because he is unsure of his OWN sexuality and he must act out to stay ahead of his fear.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:48 PM

Exactly, Kendall. I didn't expand on this before--but clearly the man has a mental picture of what he fears and apparently feels that his in-your-face demonstrations will show that world that he doesn't really have a prurient curiosity about such things.

Who's fooling whom.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:48 PM

"Because he is unsure of his OWN sexuality"

Could very well be Kendall

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM

(Clinton, not that it's worth mentioning, but every now and again, I really like you!)

Since the Southern Poverty Law Center has these zealots on their watch list, my guess is that they're aware of their potential for violence.

And when old man Phelps dies, the family's zeal may subside or die, but it may just as easily take on new life. Things don't stay static.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

" And when old man Phelps dies"

I'd be HAPPY to speed up the process!

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:42 PM

Frankly I'm surprised that any one is surprised to hear about Phelps. His group "picketed" in London the day after the subway bombing, displaying signs asserting that it was "too bad there weren't more killed." These "believers in Fred" did not get to London from Topeka Kansas overnight. They were already in London. This does not indicate a local and insignificant "organization."

Joe O - especially, others included:

Although his immediate "group" is relatively small, unfortunately a fairly substantial body of people are "sympathetic" to his notion that the "rapture is at hand," and that therefore freedoms, civil liberties, and protection by the law for anyone NOT OF THEIR EVANGELICAL BELIEF don't matter.

Among those who quite probably subscribing to this way of thinking may be several members of state legislatures (including Kansas, of course), state Attorney's General in several states (including Kansas own, of course) and probably(?) and most notably the "viable candidate for nomination to become the next President of the United States, Senator Sam Brownback." (from Kansas, of course).

Examples I can cite with personal knowledge obviously come mostly from my own area, although I do see evidence that other areas are equally affected.

Although Fred's little group gives every appearance of being a bunch of nut-cases, the presence of only slightly less demonstrative, although arguably not less extreme, "evangelically motivated" thought is pervasive in the US today, and appears to be growing around the fringes.

In my own opinion, this "evangelical self-righteousness movement" exactly parallels the rise in "religious conservatism" that made possible the Natzi regime in 1930s Germany.

If one doesn't believe that there are numerous politicians in Washington DC with egos and ambitions equal to those of Adolf Hitler and his cohorts, or that they are fully capable of following similar lines of political (and military) development, they are, IMO, ignoring what's in front of them.

The Wikipedia biography appears to be fairly complete, and much of it may be directly from an earlier, and possibly more "blunt" biography written some years ago by a newspaper intern who was "commissioned" to do an article on Phelps. When the newspaper declined to publish his article and said he couldn't either he filed suit to gain the right to have it published (or to be paid for writing it) and included the full text of his "book" in the filing. The newspaper requested, and obtained, an order to "seal the records" to prevent public release of the text, but it was "leaked" prior to the closure, and is widely available on the internet. As an "officially public court record" it may be freely quoted as long as it is not changed in quotation. Fred has tried to sue over it, and has lost.

You can find the earlier "biography" by searching on the title, Addicted to HATE which aptly sums up Fred's persona (in my opinion). His "Westborough Baptist Church" can also be found easily, and his two or three separate websites show how widespread his "followers" are and where his "pickets" have been, and are, happening.

To get the drift of how pervasively the "less obvious" sympathizers have slimed their way into politics, a search on "Brownback" may be helpful, provided that one looks at the Pro-Sam to see how much strength his campaign may have and at the "Anybody but Sam" side to see what his candidacy might really lead to.

Sorry to carry on, but I personally am seriously concerned about this issue. Phelps and his gang are only a symptom.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:34 PM

Well, in the late 15th century, one of the major arguements against the translation of the Bible into English, by those in authority at least, was that it would only lead to trouble if anyone could read the Bible and interpret it for themselves.

Looks like they were right. This is bad, even by the tough standards of the US......

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:29 PM

Disrupting funerals for any reason is wrong. Laws need to be passed to give a family the privacy and dignity they deserve.

As many know, I don't particularly like when a gay lifestyle is flaunted. However, this guy Phelps is a complete idiot and is just short of being guilty of a hate crime. Or maybe he is guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:46 PM

JohninKS, thanks for your take on this. I agree with you, completely, esp. about Brownback. Phelps is a symptom and there are many who would like to be as vocal and off the radar as him.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:34 PM

Echoing kat's thanks, John. I read the Wikipedia article on Phelps. I knew the guy was a whack-job, but not that big a whack-job. How he's gotten away with so much criminal activity during his miserable life is astonishing. He should have been locked up years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:23 AM

One of our most vigorously "protected" freedoms in the US is "freedom of speech." One of the reasons it is so "well defended" is that it directly affects the news and publishing industries, who have the money and resources to defend it.

"Freedom of Speech" has been morphed into a belief that anyone has the right to "say" anything, anytime anywhere. I don't believe that was really what the framers of our Constitutional system really had in mind. I believe what they meant was only that no person should be held "criminally liable" in any civil court for the "content" of his speech.

No "right" needs much defending unless or until it interferes with someone else's "right." Overzealous(?) defense of the Freedom of Speech has perhaps led some to overlook that Freedom of Speech is declared in the same paragraph of the Bill of Rights that declares the right to Freedom of Worship.

As a funeral or burial service, as typically conducted, may be fairly construed as an act of worship, or at the least as the observance of sacred rite and ritual, the picketing by Phelps and his gangs is a direct infringement of the right of those at a funeral to worship in their own way without interference by others.

I'd certainly like to see some publisher pick up on the protection of that right, and place it reasonable opposition to Fred's right to preach "The Church of FRED" (FRED is GOD, just ask him) anywhere and any time he chooses.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:45 AM

Freedom of speech is one part of the 1st amendment, freedom of expression is another. So, if he was to get a "knuckle sandwich" wouldn't that be freedom of expression?

Clinton, I was involved with and married to a clinical psychologist for many years. She stated flatly that hatred stems from fear, and being one of the most intelligent people I know, I believe her.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:30 AM

Kendall,

So perhaps Reverend Phelps lives in secret terror that (a) he is homosexual or (b) he is an abortion or (c) both.


A

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:50 AM

kendall -

It might be worth noting that of Fred's 13 children, a couple have disassociated from his "congregation." The remaining, 11 so far as has been reported, and all but one(?) of their spouses, are or have been licensed attorneys, and Fred and his "church" have made a living, according to all reports, from lawsuits against virtually anyone for whom they can think of, or invent, a reason to sue.

From the biography released as a court record:

"On December 16, 1985, a complaint signed by every federal judge in Kansas was lodged against the Phelps lawyers. It called for the disbarment of the seven family attorneys-Fred, Fred, Jr., Jonathon, Margie, Shirley, Elizabeth, and Fred's daughter-in-law, Betty, and the revocation of their corporate charter. The 9 angry judges accused the Phelpses of asserting "claims and positions lacking any grounding in fact", making "false and intemperate accusations" against the judges, and undertaking a "vicious pattern of intimidation" against the court."

An example given in the same biography reports that his "law firm" at one point claimed to be a great defender of civil rights in filing a suit agains a law college claiming discrimination against a black student, and while that same case was still in litigation filed a claim that Fred's own children had been the victims of "reverse discrimination" and were denied admission to the same school "because they were white."

On his "civil rights" philosophy, from the same bio:

[quote]

Mark definitely recalls that his father taught the Ham story and took it to its Calvinist conclusions: the black race was cursed and meant to be the "servants of servants" - i.e., subservient to whites. Nate agrees. "He taught that in Sunday sermon many times while we were growing up." Both boys recall their father used to tell black jokes.
"And he'd imitate them after they'd left our office," remembers Mark. However, the piece-de-resistance in the ongoing saga of Phelps hypocrisy is the pastor's relationship with the Reverend Pete Peters of La Porte, Colorado.

Peters is the guru-philosopher of the Christian Identity Movement. Known simply as "Identity", the movement believes the white race is God's true Chosen People. They assert the Jews are animal souls that rewrote the Old Testament to give themselves the Chosen's birthright. Blacks are "mud people" who also possess animal souls-meaning they are not immortal and cannot go to heaven. According to Identity, blacks and Jews want to eliminate the white race and rule the earth.

[end quote]

The bio contains additional information intended to show that the Peters philosophy was accepted and taught by Fred. It also seems amply to demonstrate that it was force fed to his family and his "congregation" (largely, but not exclusively, the same group).

One of many postings of the bio Addicted to Hate.

Phelps and his gang are more vocal than most others, but from my observation his preaching is not substantially different from that of a number of pastors of large congregations in my area and elsewhere. His professed belief that "the rapture is near" and therefore that "civil law doesn't matter and should be overturned" is apparently shared by far more people than most of us would like to accept, and it appears that quite a few of them are in both state and federal legislatures and in the "cults" (some are called PACs, and some are disguised as "prayer circles" but they're all political) who comprise the closest advisors to a number of very influential people.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:51 AM

Just think of a sufficiently large and remote island somewhere, where we stick these rather unplesent people, prefably along with the Islamic 'we can't let you school-girls out of the burning building dressed like that' brigade, and all the other groups that full of hate and violence.

Think of that island, and then think of how these remeote islands get used to test nukes.....




BTW, In Iraq, one of the holiest sites in Islam has just been almost levelled by a bomb. It's like someone levelling the vatican, or the wailing wall. Anybody would think the people responsible are trying for a full scale civil war.


story here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4740010.stm

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM

"hatred stems from fear"

Seems pretty self-evident in this case, doesn't it

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM

Clinton -

In the case of Phelps, it seems it comes from unbridled sadism - sadistic control of his "subjects." He wallows in being able to demand anything he chooses from his "followers."

In the case of at least a couple of other "ministers" who preach similar doctines, it appears to be nearly 100% egomania. It seems almost as if they don't particularly care about the hating, or who they hate; but they've learned that leading other people to hate gives them immense control of their "flocks."

In either case, they intend to change the law so that their "religion" will be legally imposed on us all.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 09:44 AM

There's an article in today's St. Paul Pioneer Press:
Foes, soldier's mother counter protesters at funeral…Fringe Kansas church singles out Iraq dead

(You might have to register to see that. On the other hand, you might be able to find it somewhere else. It's from the Associated Press. The article starts: "Six members of a fringe church in Kansas picketed Thursday outside the funeral of a Minnesota soldier who was killed in Iraq, leading to a heated exchange with the grieving mother." You might find that or other articles by using Google News and searching for Fred Phelps.)

These people are the sickest of the sick. I wonder, how is the town of Topeka coping with having these creeps in their midst? I hope the grocery stores there refuse to sell them groceries, the gas stations refuse to sell them gas, Greyhound refuses to sell them tickets, and so on. I can't think of any other decent way to deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Alba
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:14 AM

Thanks for the Link Jim. Clinton made a good call posting about this sicko.
Again Ill say it there are many who have adopted this sick unhuman way of thinking.
What started as a small group's doctrine has actually spread to a heck of lot of places outside Topeka, as John in Kansas has pointed out. Supporters of Phelp's views have been around for a while now.
Came across some in the UK a while ago and in a few other Countries I visit.
That is the thing about Hate driven egomania..it seems to draw more of the same mentality towards it and rarely stays contained in the area of origin.

I do not hold with the thinking that all hate stems from fear. Certain manifesations of hate stem from mental imbalance and/or a deep rooted feeling of self loathing in some cases imo.

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

The Topeka Capital-Journal has a large file of articles about Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:49 PM

My guess is that they are affiliated with these folks :

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM

One need not rely on news accounts to track the Phelps family. You can go directly to where they brag about what they're doing at their own web sites:

Westborough 1: God Hates Fags
Westborough 2: God Hates America

Phelps is simply trying to provoke enough people that someone attempts something for which he can sue and get rich.

The one I'm more seriously concerned about is typified by:

God's Senator by Rolling Stone magazine.

The good part starts about half way down the page, on Herr B.

Although it's a bit dated, before making trite "analyses" of Fred's "motivations" one really should read the "Addicted to Hate" bio of Felps linked earlier. And forget the notion that his brand of slime will die out if Fred dies. His children are brainwashed and dedicated, and are perpetuating his muck.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:38 PM

SOMEbody needs a bran muffin, for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 05:38 AM

I am wandering , have people in Us nothing better to do with the time ?
and if they have to do this why don´t they go to the white house
the house of horror and protest there in front of mr,horror(Bush)
Sorry my friends I don´t like him as president, he´s gonna
give the hole world a lot more pain in the coming future.

with all respect
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:26 AM

No need to apologise Scarpi - a lot of people here don't like him as president or, it seems, anything else.

Subject: Fred Felps = America's #1 Asshole
From: GUEST,amanda
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:41 PM

I was just watching the news and this is the first time I've heard of this Felps asshole. I seriously cannot believe him and his disgusting family. All he kept saying was that American's are perverts and our soldiers are perverts, well he's the perverted one for his mind-set. I feel so sorry for this man, his family, his congregation and anyone else who supports him because they will all burn in hell for eternity and nothing is sweeter than knowing that. Poor souls.

*GOD bless America *

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: heric
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:22 PM

Tell you what else is fked up. I just read the Zogby poll results (excuse me if ths is already discussed somewhere) -says that 85% (eighty-five percent) of the US troops serving our country in Iraq believe that the primary purpose of their mission is "to retaliate for Saddam Hussein's role in the 9-11 attacks."

Tens of thousands of people in Pakistan and elsewhere desire to go down in history as cartoon rioters, manipulated from the top down. Okay fine. Tiny percentage of the world's population. Tens of thousands of American kids want to shoot guns and bombs and shit at people around Iraq to "punish" the 9-11 terrorists, manipulated from the top down.

The media want us to read this crap and get all inflamed just as the cartoon rioters or terrorist punishers or homo-haters. I think it's time for me to just stop reading the paper. Only the nuts are in the news.

I never like to criticize those who are called to serve, especially as I haven't been required. But fer crying out loud - am I suppposed to thank my cousin when he gets back for fighting back ("retaliating") against the Iraqis, as he likely (85%) believes?? That's really going to take some fake-nice on my part. "Yes, thanks for doing that Chad." (. . . You fucking idiot.)

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:52 AM

It is essential for governments have troops that are no bright enough to be politically aware, but bright enough to lace up their boots and hold the rifle the right way round.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 01:50 PM

"Whacko, pervert, crazy," - these are some of the terms I see here, used to describe Phelps. He may be none of them. He may be a demagogue who is uniting an indifferent population by creating enemies where no enemies were before. Hitler did it with the Jews, the KKK did it with blacks, gangs do it with other gangs.

In addition, a person can get more publicity by being outrageous than by being noble.

If Phelps were a true minister, he would attack true enemies - for example, meth, alcoholism, unemployment, and country music.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM

leenia -

You are welcome to read the biography of Phelps.

Addicted to Hate

(One of more than a dozen places where it's posted, identically, on the web. All sites where it is posted carry a complete description of how and why it is available.)

After you've read it, you won't need to resort to speculation. You won't have to resort to "he may be" whimpering of platitudes, because you will have an opinion. It most likely will be quite close to those expressed by others here.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

Well, the Phelps people have just shown up in our immediate (Michigan) area for one Iraaq veteran's funeral, and are expected for another. The Patriot Guard, described as largely a biker group, turned out in substantial numbers to at least help shield the families from the Phelps contingent. Not many things sicken me as much as this does.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:00 PM

Does anyone else wonder how Phelps and his people are financing all of this ? It must take a fair amout of cash to drive all over the country to be at these protests ? Does the Phelps clan all have good day jobs and just protest on the weekends ? Or is someone bankrolling the operation ? It makes you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:03 PM

As with any "church," it's quite likely that those who worship Fred pay their own individual expenses when they participate in church activities, and except for the cost of travel/transportation/lodging the activities of the Church of Fred don't require significant cash or investment. It's easy to drive on a day trip, or at most an overnighter, in central KS and immediately surrounding area, to any of about 7 or 8 states, and they probably carpool or take a bus. "Fred Services" in more remote locations appear to be mostly carried of by people resident near or in the areas where the "Services" take place.

Of course, the frequently cited small membership in Phelps' congregation would preclude having lots of "worshipers" spread all over the world. The ability of pickets to appear almost instantly in remote places suggests that the organization is extremely widespread, although it's difficult to assess how "dedicated" those in dispersed cults congregations may be.

Many churches, especially conservative and fundamentalist ones, insist quite emphatically on "tithing" by members – giving a tenth of all one's income to "the church." I haven't seen anything specifically indicating this as an official requirement for "the Worship of Fred" but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. A few of the "more strict" churches (a.k.a. cults?) demand that the tenth part (or sometimes all) of one's property must be deeded to the "faith." I wouldn't be surprised if Fred expects it of his "followers," but they don't talk much (rationally) to outsiders.

From the frequently cited (and obviously unread) bio:

[quote]
A series of interviews with Nate resulted in an eyewitness account of life growing up in the Phelps camp. These reports contained allegations of persistent and poisonous child abuse, wife-beating, drug addiction, kidnapping, terrorism, wholesale tax fraud, and business fraud.
[end quote]

It sounds, and apparently was, profitable enough. (Nate is one of Fred's sons who has left the Phelps family. He has been "excommunicated and ritually cursed" – like Ham – by Fred.)


Noting that the bio is a few years old (1994):

[quote]
The pastor's first-born, Fred, Jr., and his wife, Betty, were guests at the Clinton inauguration. The former northeast Kansas campaign manager for Al Gore in 1988 has a stack of VIP photos, such as the one of him, Betty, Al and Tipper, and even soon-to- be Kansas governor Joan Finney smiling and yucking it up at the Phelps' place just a few years ago.
[endquote]

And with people like Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan doing things like what's noted in the thread BS: No Sin City, it's likely that the Church of Fred can find at least a few substantial donors. Most of the ones like Monaghan avoid "showy activities" but the "fundie" inclination of a number very rich people can be easily observed with a bit of poking about.

And yes, the Phelps family, all do have good day jobs and nominally are "good citizens" except when they "do Fred." The nominal leader and organizer, since Fred himself is quite old and less active, is his daughter Margie. A local newspaper posted the comment, with a "reply" she made to an editorial about the pickieting:

[quote]
Margie Phelps of Topeka is director of release planning for the Kansas Department of Corrections.
[end quote]

Margie's reply:

[quote]
In every area of my life, my goal is to do what is fair, compassionate and truthful — as the Bible defines it.
[end quote]

(The Wichita Eagle, Wichita KS, July 30, 2005, page 7A.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:35 PM

I must apologize to Margie. I intended to indicate specifically that the "Margie's reply:" was an extracted quote, and was not her entire response. The actual reply to the newspapers previous editorial was extensive.

John

Subject: RE: BS: O.k.. THIS is pretty fked up right here
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:58 PM

'the "fundie" inclination of a number very rich people can be easily observed '

Having got all that moolah together, you might as well buy something useful in the long term - but Martin Luther had some objections about that a while ago - however looks like it's 'business as usual' again... now where's that camel's needle again...