BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?

Subject: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM

There seem to be a variety of therapies out there now using magnetism. Magnetic bracelets, magnetic devices to put around a sore wrist or knee, magnetic mattress pads, etc. I have been reading a bit about it.

I'm curious if anyone here has actually tried any of these things, and if so, with what result?

So if you have some genuine real-life experience with magnetic therapy devices (as opposed to just a strong opinion pro or con based on no experience), please tell me about it, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:47 PM

They are a scam

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:52 PM

Gueat,rt89

Can you postulate any beneficial physiologic effect that a magnet may have on the human body ?

IMO the strongest attractive force these "therapies" exert are on the money in your wallet.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:59 PM

Tell ya' what rt, I have these three good ol' boys who hang around my place (Cletus, Paw, and Buford plus their buddies, "The Reg Boys" from Canada....three brothers all named Reg)) and they gave the magnetism thing a try a few years back. I related their experience before but I'll tell it again so you can decide for yourself whether magnetism works or not.

Paw's flattulence when combined with his passion for 'shine and hot wings used to be a big problem for him whenever his roids would flare up....so to speak...and it got to the point that little rubber donut pillows and Preparation H just weren't doing the job anymore. Clete's 6th wife was into all the weird and wacky cures so Cletus was always coming to Paw with his suggestions that he'd heard from her. When Cletus told Paw about acupuncture, he disappeared for about two weeks and I'll be damned if anyone could find him.

The Reg Boys too had their share of wacky cures for everything from the Great White North of Canada, but most of them involved bear grease and other vile and foamy liquids. Then it happened. The whole lot of them were watching my TV down in the den one night and had been subjected to at least nine hours of infomercials while they slugged down Iron City. I had learned from experience to unplug the phone and hide my credit cards on these nights which only took place when Karen was gone. I'm still paying for that quonset hut in the Aleutian Islands and I have the complete collection of Pan Flute Favorites so I have learned, albeit slowly. I think the one that finally got me was the "Great Michigan Getaway Weekend" which they bought and gave to Karen and I for an anniversary present. It was a month before I found out that they had billed it to my Visa and when we went for "rest and relaxation" in beautiful Michigan, it turned out to be clapped out motel run by a Pakistani in downtown Flint, just across from a closed GM factory.

I guess it was about 5:30 AM when Cletus woke me up and said they had the cure for Paw's hemorrhoids. This was more than I wanted or needed to know at 5:30 so after verifying that it wouldn't cost me anything, I said have at it and went back to sleep. When I woke up about 7 I had one of those vague feelings of dread. You know what I mean? Nothing was wrong that I could think of and yet I just felt the world was going to come after me that day. It turned out to be Old Man Rafferty instead....but I'll come to that.

The "boys" arrived back at my place about noon having already left when I woke at 7. They were lugging some huge electric motors into my garage and looking about for tools when I walked in and asked what the hell was going on. Cletus then launched into their "cure" and the reasoning behind it. It seems they had watched an infomercial about the "healing power of magnetism" and saw immediately that this was the way to fix Paw's 'roids. Slowly it all began to come together for me and I began to wonder how in the hell these guys could even remember how to breathe!

In any case, they'd picked up the motors from out back of Bernie's Electrical Supply and were now going to remove the large magnets inside. They idea was to cut a slit in Paw's rubber donut, insert the magnets, and then duct tape the thing back together. I noticed that Buford had an old jockstrap (with cup) that they evidently were going to use to strap the magnets to Paw's ass, again using liberal amounts of duct tape. Listening to Cletus explain all of this and their newfound theory made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story.

Things started going downhill pretty quickly as the magnets were removed and now were flying across my garage, affixing themselves to various steel things....like my van, my lawnmower, my golf clubs, and a little steel reinforced concrete rabbit that someone had once given us as a joke. I figured that I was going to be better off if they'd finish up somewhere else so I suggested they take all the stuff and head for the pleasant little roadside picnic area on the edge of the village where they could finish rigging Paw up and with any luck, I'd never know anything more about it. After removing the magnets, scratching the hell out of my van, breaking off the head of a 5 iron and the left ear of the rabbit, they left. The picnic area was only about a half mile off, just a bit down Rt.664 and I told them to let me know how it all worked out.

Curiosity is a terrible thing sometimes and about an hour later I grabbed my Weimaraner and his leash and set out as though I were just walking the dog. As I turned on 664 I saw the Boys all walking towards me from the little picnic grove. Paw's ass seemed to be a bit large and he was walking funny, but from a distance I could tell they must have done a good job circling his ass in magnets because outside of a slight limp and a big bulge at the rear of his bibs, Paw looked pretty normal. Then it happened. Trailing the others, Paw walked past Old Man Rafferty's mailbox, a new heavy duty steel one to foil the kids with cars and bats. He first slowed, stopped, then flew backwards and before you could say "dumbfuck" he was hanging from his ass on the mailbox. Ol' Man Rafferty was washing his aging Electra deuce and a quarter and looked up to see what was happening. By that time, Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys all were tugging on either Paw or Rafferty's mailbox and though they got him off the mailbox was smashed in and the pole was a goner.

Well I tell you, Rafferty came flying down the drive, gravel spitting up from his shoes, and swearing a blue streak. Paw was laying about 10 foot up the drive where he'd landed after the force of being ripped from the mailbox sent him sailing through the air. Rafferty bent over him and started yelling in his face and Paw was trying to stand up but being weighed down by the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. I got up there and tried to get Rafferty to calm down some as the others stood around looking bewildered. Rafferty started blaming me for allowing such "dumbass shitkickers" to stay here and how I should let them rot somewhere else. Before he could say another word, things continued to deteriorate. Paw had gotten to his feet about 15 feet from the Buick and there was a loud clanging thump as one of the hubcaps flew off and affixed itself to Paw's rump. Rafferty grabbed the hubcap and started pulling for all he was worth swinging Paw round and round in a circle. The hubcap folded and broke loose and Paw landed by the side of the road while Rafferty began to rage about his rump-sprung hubcap and twisted mailbox. I got out my checkbook and with a stern look to Cletus asked how much this would cost to keep from calling the police. The sight of my checkbook calmed Rafferty down and my Weimaraner had gone over to the side of the road and was licking Paw's face. Rafferty calculated a sum which I figured was enough to buy a new set of tires and an exhaust system for the Buick and build a brick mailbox, while forcing me nearer to bankruptcy.

Cletus and the rest were circled around me as I handed Rafferty the check and when I turned to go, I saw Paw had gotten to his feet again and was bent over stroking Jaeger's head. The dog has always had a soft spot for Paw and when I whistled for him he reluctantly came back up the drive. Bending over to pick up his leash, I heard Cletus say, "Aw Sheeitt!" Right then I couldn't imagine how things could get worse, but I looked up just in time to see Paw lifted from his feet and his ass attach to the exhaust stack of a passing Peterbilt. I watched as the truck roared off, Paw flailing around and in a blind spot where the driver couldn't see him, and the dumbass Reg boys waving "bye-bye" as the Pete rounded a curve down by the Hopewell place.

We found Paw at the truckstop at Rt.37 and I-70 where the driver had stopped for fuel. When we arrived, the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring was nowhere to be seen and Paw was sitting on a bag of ice trying to cool the burns from riding 27 miles on an exhaust stack. But I tell you what.....Perhaps it was the scar tissue from the burns that did it, but Paw hasn't had trouble with 'roids since then. Maybe there is something to the power of magnetism.....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:09 PM

made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story ROTFLMAO!!!


Holy Jumping Jehosophat, Pat, you should absolutely be on a community cable station reading these to insomniac husbands who come out looking for a beer at three AM. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:35 PM

I knew a very nice man a few years ago who was 'sold' magnets-in-the-shoes therapy which would purportedly help his cancer.

He died......

This crap does NOT work. No amount of scientifc sounding gobbledegook is going to make it work....it is like apricot pits...it is to make THEM rich.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:41 PM

Basically BS. There have been a number of studies done; here is the summary of one done where I used to work.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

Gosh, what helpful people I'm finding here. People who know, because they are experienced in what they talk about from direct experience, ha ha. This is as much fun as looking for useful info on Baptist religious tracts in Mecca during Ramadan.

Bill D, you reminded me of something in your post. If I may paraprhase it:

I knew a very nice woman a few years ago who was 'sold' radiation, chemotherapy, and surgery to help her cancer.

She died...... (as have many, many, many others)

Lotta quacks out there in the medical trade, aren't there? Yes, one has to be very careful whom one trusts!

I have not seen anyone recommend magnets to cure cancer.

Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear from someone who has had actual personal experience with magnetic therapy. I don't give a shit about some study you've heard of. You can find prestigious-sounding studies that will appear to support or deny any and every form of even mildly unusual medical procedure. Just contact those who are already for or against it first, and they will direct you immediately to the studies of their choice, and not to studies that show a result they don't agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:42 PM

Hmmmmmm.... application of one variety of magnets had no statistically significant effect on a group of 20 persons.

I have known a number of people who have actually found relief from tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome from using those wristband magnet things. Gawd only knows why. Hell, even if it was placebo effect, that's just as pain free.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:45 PM

Well, GUEST,rt89 perhaps you need to ask your question at a website for practitioners and believers in the paranormal. I directed you to the results of a scientific study done by people that I personally know and respect, and one of the three researchers involved told me that he was very surprised to find that the study showed no measurable effects.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:52 PM

There are plenty of theories about how and why it works, but I certainly do not intend to type them all out here in a fruitless attempt to persuade know-it-alls who already know all about things they're never personally experienced. Naw.   

Anyway, thanks for the anecdote, Amos. It seems that quite a few pro golfers and professional sports people are using these magnetic wristbands, knee braces, and other such devices to eliminate pain and assist them in their sport.

The important thing is, does it work? In many cases it seems to. I am hoping, however, to get feedback from people with genuine direct, personal EXPERIENCE...not empty opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

Well, let's just say it works some of the time; if anyone comes up with a poll, I'd be interested in seeing it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

Just curious. What are you hoping to cure, relieve,put into remission... whatever

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM

Artbrooks, I wish to hear not from the converted paranormal choir nor the professional sceptic debunking choir. Neither of those. They both have an axe to grind, and a familiar position to defend.

I wish to hear from ordinary people who have tried magnetic therapy themselves and can tell me if it helped them or not. Period. Perhaps there are no such people on this forum, but that hardly seems likely.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

Wesley, I would like to sleep better at night. I have a fair bit of insomnia from time to time. I also have some tendency toward carpal tunnel or tendonitis symptoms in the wrists at times, from computer work. I have tried using a magnetic bracelet for a few days for the wrist, and it does appear to be helping.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Why don't you try it out yourself then and report back here, I would be interested to see if there is any MEASURABLE improvement in the condition for which you intend to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:40 PM

Yes. The question is, how do you go about measuring something like this? As I say, the bracelet does appear to be helping with the wrist...but my condition was not so dramatic as to make it totally clear one way or another. Anyway, we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:20 PM

"The question is, how do you go about measuring something like this? "

Aye that's the rub isn't it ? That's the problem with evaluating the efficacy of therapies. Anecdotal claims are not reliable because for everyone who claims benefit we never hear about how many received no benefit at all.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:21 PM

Hello GUEST rt89
I am an Osteopath and have a number of patients who use magnetic bracelets etc. to improve their symptoms. In most cases they have felt a tangible improvement.
There have been a number of cases where magnetic collars have been fitted to animals and in most cases there was a marked improvement. With my own dog improvement came within two hours. If his colar was removed he deteriorated over several hours, improving again when the collar was replaced. Work on animals removes the placebo effect.

We may not know how it works but mainstream medecine uses magnets in MRI scans. Magnets obviously have some sort of effect on a body which is, in effect, a huge battery.
Unfortunately science still does not know all the answers as to how the human body works. Only recently it has been found that herbal remedies, in some cases, work better than manufactured drugs as the plant contains substances other than the main ingredient which acts in sybiosis to facilitate healing.

Remember that studies of any medicine can only be carried out with the knowledge and tools that we have today. Dow we always have the right tools?
Men once played with Whimshurst machines and Leyden jars to make sparks fly as an after-dinner entertainment. It was only whrn a guy called Votaire built a meter to measure electricity that society realised what it could do for them.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Kaleea
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:38 PM

I tried the magnet thing for my wrists (carpal tunnel of both), my neck & low back, knees & ankles-arthritis, nerve damage & other injuries from auto accident. I got plenty o' nuthin' from them thar magnets. zero. zip. nada. no relief of any of the pain.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM

Ha ha good joke about Voltaire, Bonecruncher.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM

Okay, good. We have a couple more real posts on the subject. Thank you for your input, Bonecruncher & Kaleea.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:31 AM

A doctor that I used to use did a lot of work with magnets, including using them for diagnostics-- I do not and did not understand exactly what the procedure was, but he was able to get get information that was verified using other, independent procedures. It has been ten or more years since, and, surprisingly(given that it seemed to work), I've never heard about it.

Another doctor that I had, who was much more mainstream(in fact, he was one of those doctors that always are on lists in magazines) told me that if it works, and doesn't do any harm, you should keep doing it--He told me that a there are a lot of therapies don't work for everyone, or even for most of the people that try them, but can be very effective for a few people--and If it works for 99 others, but not for you, it doesn't work--

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:41 AM

My Mother and I both suffwe from arthritic-type pain in the fleshy area at the side of our hand/base of our thumbs. We both find that when it flares up, if we wear a magnetic bracelet for a couple of days it goes away.

BTW, just because science hasn't yet found an explanation for something (and there are a lot of things they haven't) doesn't make it paranormal.

Yes they work some of the time, and not on everyone, but then, so do a lot of accepted western medicines.

Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't make it crap

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:47 AM

http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AddFav=1&UID=60&AID=1090

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1450

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/extract/332/7532/4

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/0-b

These are just a few articles I have found by googling the topic and using pubmed. Unfortunately a lot of the BMJ stuff is fairly recent, so you have to be a subscriber to get the full text. But a useful thing is the rapid response letters to the articles in which academics discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of the research done.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:34 AM

if you had a really strong magnet - you could undo people's zips without them noticing.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:22 AM

I had a broken ankle in '99 and there was a lot of tissue damage which resulted in it swelling up every day for the first few months. After not much improvement after 3 months, my naturopath suggested a magnetic pillow, which was actually a slim pillow with magnets between the layers, which you insert into your normal pillowcase next to your normal pillow.

I always sleep with a pillow between my knees and ankles anyway, as it seems to help prevent occasional back problems, so I had my ankle next to the magnetic pillow all night. I also took as many opportunities during the day to sit with it wrapped around my ankle (I had already been spending as much time as possible with my feet up). Within two days I started to notice a dramatic improvement, with much less swelling from then on. A couple of weeks later it was pretty much back to normal.

When I broke my wrist in early 2002, and it was taking a long time to heal, I got the pillow out again and rested my arm on it at night in bed. Apart from it feeling instantly more comfortable, the healing rate started to pick up, and I got more movement back in my fingers. It had been a very bad break, and the doctor was amazed at how much movement and flexibility I got back. It's as good as new now.

Of course I can't give figures or measurements or proof, but the results seemed obvious enough to me that I believe it works, and if I had a similar problem again, I would use it again and expect to see good results again.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:29 AM

Try using a non-magnetic bracelet as well, and see if it makes a difference. In fact, if you want to do it properly then paint both of them the same colour and get someone to give you one of them at random. Otherwise you're likely to be hitting placebo effects.

Placebo effects aren't a *bad* thing - as M Ted's doctor was smart enough to realise - but just bcos someone gets relief from their symptoms by praying to Zeus every hour, it doesn't mean you will.

Bonecruncher, as far as quoting MRI scans goes, we're talking major differences here. It's like saying that because a blowtorch will light a piece of wood on fire, you must also be able to light a piece of wood by huffing on it.

And not that I'm any kind of expert, but I was surprised to hear on the radio recently that animals are *more* susceptable to placebo effect than humans. Partly it's animals trusting that humans will look after them, and partly it's observational bias on the part of the humans doing the looking-after.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:54 AM

Have you tried Melatonin {sp?} for the insomnia ?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:03 AM

On Dr. Ben Goldacre's site there's a very good article explaining how the decline of the old fashioned paternalistic, authoritarian medicine has created a need for therapists who talk in a comforting but authoritative way... witchdoctoring in other words. The problem with mainstream medicine is that the doctors are too honest and won't lie to you about the effects!

When I was a kid, all drugs were marked "THE TABLETS" or "THE MIXTURE", and our kindly old Scottish family doctor was highly offended if anyone presumed to ask what they contained.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:03 PM

Other than the MRI, and new magnetic tensor scanning devices used for diagnosis and surigcal guides, the only magnetic therapeutic application that I know of is the use of certain magnetic frequencies that aid in the healing of bone breaks by speeding healing up to 50%.
It is especially valuable for the elderly with broken hips.

As for the back braces with magnets, they won't cause harm and cost about the same as supports without magnets so I say go ahead.



As for clintonH's fount of knowledge...
the only scams would be miracle claims for disease and joint pain relief.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:17 PM

I don't know about the magnets, but I do know that those copper bracelets work! I know the thing must have worked 'cause it turned my wrist green.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:18 PM

Donuel, magnetic therapies are also being experimentally used in depression - TMS - transcranial magnetic stimulation. However those sorts of strong electromagnetic therapies are a world away from the use of magnetic bracelets etc.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:18 PM

LAOL

laughing almost out loud

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:27 PM

I don't understand the attitude sometimes encountered in duiscussions like this one which says in effect, "oh, you weren't REALLY cured -- that was placebo effect."

I would suggest that if modifying a mental action by suggestion or belief brings about healing, you are looking at a far more powerful therapeutic approach, not one that should be invalidated; namely, a therapeutic approach that costs nearly zero to apply and is self-localizing in its effects. I have no idea exactly how much money pharmaceutical companies spend to make the chemicals they want to apply in the body get to the correct sites, and not effect the wrong ones, but I expect it is a major technical factor in the design of tablets and pharmaceutical compounds. USing the placebo effect would be like getting the remedy for the price of the label alone! How d'ye like them apples?

But of course, minds vary wildly and cases respond with different levels of confidence and result to suggestions. This area is a profound study, IMO, examining the nature of postulated realities (even when stimulated by authoritarian permission) on structural and organic physical objects. Sure it is unsettling if you believe in the all-mechnaism model of thought, but, well, tough.

If it works at all, you have what might be called a "white crow" phenomenon -- absolute rebuttal to the statement "all crows are black". This implies that an all-mechanism paradigm of human existence, encountering a definite but non-aligned (to the model) phenomenon, must be re-examined and its flawed assumptions identified.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:31 PM

I was a therapeutic hypnotist for 12 years and saw some amazing "placebo" effects.

Amos how did you come to the correct conclusion in so little time?

Jeez, I could have saved 12 years ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:45 PM

There is a diference between magnetic fields produced by magnets and by electromagnetic devices. Basicaly the field from a magnet is static (to the magnet) and the electromagnetic device occilates. This has a dramatic effect on certain materials, and is also dependent on frequency.
If all those who think magnetic fields can have no effect on the Human Body would step foreward and place there heads into a microwave (safetys removed) whilst I switch on.......... what .... no voulenteers?
Obviously, microwaves are tuned to resonate with the water molecule produceing heat! Other devices MAY have other effects.
Until recently Wesern Medical Science denied that accupuncture works, dispite proveable evidence to the contery. Could the same not be true of magnetic therapy?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

Next, Spaw, you should try wearing that copper bracelet on your dick and see if it shows any improvement there....

The reason placebos work is because human thought and belief in itself can be a tremendously powerful healing agent to an ailing body.

As Jesus said, "Ye are all gods and sons of the most high. All the things I have done, you can do these and greater."

People are the prisoners of their own basic limiting beliefs about themselves and about life. This is universally true.

A human being is an electromagnetic system, with those electromagnetic energies pulsing out constantly from the brain through the nervous system and the endocrine glands, and regulating the functioning of the various body systems. That's why depression, for example, is injurious to your physical health. It interferes with the healthy communication of the nervous system to the body. It suppresses or misdirects the electromagnetic communications in the nervous system.

Why should a magnetic flux field (either steady or alternating) not have some effect on either assisting or perhaps interfering with the functioning of an electromagnetic nervous system in your body?

The planet Earth is itself a generator of a huge magnetic field, with a north polarity in the northern hemisphere, and a south polarity in the southern hemisphere. That field is passing through your body every moment of your life. Might it not have some effect on your well-being to increase or decrease that field, which is a condition your biological organism has been attuned to since birth?

There are a great many scientific verifications now of an interesting fact: the magnetic field of our planet has decreased substantially in the past few thousand years, from a former level of 2.5 gauss to a level of .5 gauss. That's a reduction of 80% in a relatively short biological period of time!

Scientists do not know why the magnetic field of the planet has decreased so dramatically, but they do know it has.

There is a possibility that the reduced magnetic field of the planet in recent times has added to various stresses upon lifeforms which for lengthy millenia were accustomed to being immersed in a much stronger magnetic field, and that may be why magnetic therapy, if done properly, can be useful in stimulating a biological system to repair itself.

I'm not saying I know that is so. I'm saying it might be so, and the sceptic who has probably never given the matter a moment's serious thought, truth be told, but is merely reacting out of his own arrogant chauvinism in most cases, has no more reason to say he KNOWS it isn't so than I would have to say I KNOW it IS so. It MAY be so. It's a possibility. Possibilities deserve to be investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Bill D, Clinton, artbrooks and other poindexters: Of course these things don't work for you. You are skeptics and skeptics by their very nature transmit an anti-aura that impedes both quasi-electro and quantum magnetic devices. It's the same homocentric energy blocker that rechannels the chakra in what Deepak Chapra calls 'intrinsic obscuring.' Experience is the only true knowledge; Why not allow those who would benefit from alternative medicine to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

"skeptics by their very nature transmit an anti-aura"

What a load of bullsquirt!

Almost as big a load as Magnetic Therapy.....

What's next? Pyramid Power? The Tarot?   Wearing a bullfrog around your neck to 'cure' a cold??

Pack up your ogga-booga and take it back to the 13th Century where it belongs o.k....

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:47 PM

I knew a guy who wore magnetics all the time. Said it cured everything that was wrong with him and prevented everything else. It did not, however, cure clumsiness and one day he fell against a rack of computer servers and erased all the hard drives, then riccocheted into the racks holding the backup tapes and erased those. He was terminated on the spot by an irate Computer Services Supervisor, who used a .38 special.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM

There is a diference between magnetic fields produced by magnets and by electromagnetic devices. Basicaly the field from a magnet is static (to the magnet) and the electromagnetic device occilates. This has a dramatic effect on certain materials, and is also dependent on frequency.
If all those who think magnetic fields can have no effect on the Human Body would step foreward and place there heads into a microwave (safetys removed) whilst I switch on.......... what .... no voulenteers?


CLogger:

A couple of minor impediments here.

1. Ferromagnetic dipoles, as you say, are relatively static in their field alignment. But so are electromagnets created by a coil with DC going through it. The oscillation you speak of is an AC phenomenon.

2. Microwaves do not use magnetic fields to affect their targets. They emit very high frequency radio waves, with a wavelength in the range of 0.001-0.3m. While these are part of the general electro-magnetic spectrum, they use a magnet only to spin the electrons and generate the radio-waves; the magnetism does not impact the target dish, it just helps excite the microwave energy.

In a magnetron, emitted electrons interact with an electric field and a strong magnetic field to generate microwave energy. The direction of the electric field that accelerates the electron beam is perpendicular to the axis of the magnetic field.

At least, that's how I understand the damn thing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

Hawk, I DID try one of those copper bracelets on my dick but even the extra-large size cut off the circulation.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:25 PM

Yer confusing yer dick with yer neck again....

Sure, so does everybody else, but....

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:28 PM

Rapaire... LOL! You're not serious, are you? Geez, he would have to be wearing some pretty heavy duty magnetic stuff to do that.

Yes, scepticism does affect test results. It worsens them. For example, I've heard about more than one study in ESP (guessing a hidden card type) where the following results were obtained...

Those who believed in it were fairly good at it, scoring higher than average results, indicating ESP ability.

Those who were neutral about it scored average to better than average, also indicating some ESP ability.

Those who categorically did NOT believe in ESP scored considerably lower than average results. In other words, they more often guessed 'wrong' than they should have...according to their theory that ESP does not exist. They evidently WERE using ESP, totally unconsciously, to prove to their own satisfaction that ESP does not exist!

Amusing. People are capable of more than they are prepared to admit to.

Clinton, I recommend that you try that thing with the bullfrog. It probably won't do anything for your cold, but it'll at least make you look more attractive. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:30 PM

Yer mom says I'm WAY hotter than you

And better in bed too...

:-P
Heh

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

LH - that was a scene from Buttons an' Bows starring Bob Hope. ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:36 PM

No Clinton, I am not confused at all. I haven't confused my neck with my dick since that time I decided to jack-off and gave myself a bad case of whiplash.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 PM

My mom??? She's getting a little old for that, Clinton. LOL!

My God, what a place this is.....

Spaw, I think you should check out the health food stores in your area. My understanding is that you can get expandable magnetic bracelets and necklaces that will fit ANY size of dick, neck, or whatever. Even yours.

Also, go to a doctor, man, and ask him to teach you about basic anatomy. It's not too late to find out where your dick really is, and I think you're just a little confused.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

Thanks, BPL. I don't think I've ever sat through a Bob Hope film. Matter of fact, I know I haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:43 PM

"gave myself a bad case of whiplash........."
LOL

"My mom??? She's getting a little old for that"
That's just what she tells YOU...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, yeah.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

At the risk of bring the discussion back to topic, I will mention that there is a thought going around that a lot of the effects of conventional medicinces and therapies is related to the placebo effect--

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:51 PM

Don't waste your money on the braceletes, etc. Your entire body is subjected to a magnetic field of 54,000 to 58,000 nanoTeslas (depending on your latitude and longitude) every moment of your life. MRI machines do, in fact, use DC magnetic fields that are upwards of five times this intensity, but they are for imaging and NOT for treatment of anything. Some AC fields might be helpful, but others (e.g. in the microwave or gamma wavebands) are absolutely deadly. In any case, the bracelets, etc. generate only DC, and you are already getting that treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:55 PM

"a lot of the effects of conventional medicinces and therapies is related to the placebo effect--"

That may be because a lot of the conditions which respond to placebos are psychosomatic in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

Yes, TIA, but what do you make of the fact that the DC magnetic field that comes from the Earth has been declining steadily for hundreds of years, and is now only about 20% as strong as it used to be? Would that decline in the Earth's magnetic field have an effect on living things? Could it? Is it a possibility?

If so, what would one do about it?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:36 PM

"Is it a possibility?"

Anything's a possibility - consider the healing powers of gravity.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:48 PM

Yes, without it we would all fly off into space... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:54 PM

The Earth's magnetic field! I'd forgotten about that! I'll betcha that's what's caused the problems with my computer recently!

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

What do I make of it?

Easy - we are headed for another geomagnetic reversal. It has happened hundreds of times (as recorded in the sea floor). The field will decay to naught, and regenerate with a (possibly) new orientation, and Canada will no longer be "North" of the USA (at least according to compasses).

Effects on creatures? There is no correlation between the sea floor stripes and any discernible variations in the fossil record. However, there are clearly migratory creatures (including lobsters!) who employ the Earth's field for navigation, and will be be affected. And what will they do about it? Adapt no doubt.

BTW - just noticed that my attempt at inserting mathematical symbols in my previous post failed. Should say that an MRI magnet is upwards of 500,000 times stronger than the Earth's ambient field. Also 5,000 times stronger than the average fridge magnet at 100 Teslas. The strongest magentic therapy device I could find advertised was 300 Teslas.

The reason MRI magnets are so whopping strong is that the stuff that makes up humans has extremely low magnetic susceptibility. The creatures that use the Earth's field to navigate have actual magnetite crystals in 'em (in the shells of lobsters, in the brains of some birds, etc.) Unfortunately people (other than those who may have met with some violent mineralogic accident) dont have magnetite in 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:11 PM

Full disclosure:

I know earth science just fine.
Don't know much about medical science.

But, this guy does...

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM

Exactly, TIA. We are headed for another planetary magnetic reversal, as has happened in the past numerous times.

What I am wondering is whether the decline in the magnetic field is having subtle effects on people's physical and pschological health. That may be so. It's an area worth looking into.

I read the report by the M.D. Yeah, okay. You will find if you investigate the alternative health field that there is no form of alternative therapy in existence that is not or has not been aggressively and continually attacked by the FTC, the FDA, and the AMA. In those attacks, they enlist the services of any well-paid doctor who is willing to debunk any treatment that does not utilize the use of pharmaceutical drugs, surgery, and radiation...the three sacred cows of the modern medical industry. ("poison, cut, and burn")

These are all invasive techniques (fire department to the rescue!), none of which seem to believe in the body's powerful ability to heal itself through nutrition, exercise, pure water, and a good state of mind, and they all contribute to a multi-billion or trillion dollar national medical industry that guards its own ass and wants no competition to be allowed to survive in its jurisdiction.

I have read books by M.D.'s who categorically oppose the general attitude of the AMA, the FDA, and the FTC in this regard. In so doing, they risk having their careers and reputations destroyed. They risk prosecution and imprisonment. They risk everything.

The conventional doctor who supports the standard line of the AMA, the FTC, and the FDA risks absolutely nothing, and he continues getting a fat paycheck while risking nothing. Can such men be found? In a heartbeat! Also, they may very well believe that they are doing the right thing, since they were educate to believe in the conventional medical system.

Ask me who I think has more credibility under such circumstances? The guy who's putting his career on the line with an unconventional viewpoint, that's who. I read a book by a medical doctor in California who found both the cause of Aids and the cure for it. He has a private clinic and has cured many people there, but he makes no official claim at that clinic to be able to cure anyone....he advertises it simply as a hospice to give comfort to the dying. The "dying" under his treatment surprisingly get better and walk out after a few weeks or months. If he claimed to be able to cure anyone, however, the AMA and the FDA would shut him down immediately.

Why? Because he threatens a multi-billion dollar Aids-generated industry that mostly sells drugs and researches new drugs. He does not use any drugs to cure or treat Aids. If they admit he's right, they can shut their whole industry down right now, and all lose their jobs. They are not going to do that!

If he quietly treats just a few people, doesn't officially claim a cure, and nobody much hears about it, then the national drug business for treating Aids can go on as usual, and they won't have to prosecute hin or kill him.

It's that simple.

Our conventional medicine of today is a great big giant corporate disgrace, based purely on making money. It's all about money and pushing drugs. No one ever got sick because they lacked drugs. Drugs aren't natural. They got sick because they were poisoned BY drugs and by many other modern toxins, and they were weakened by a very poor diet and a stressful and unnatural lifestyle. In a century from now our "modern medicine" of today will be seen the way we now see the "leeches" of oldtime medicine who put their unwashed hands into open wounds...only worse than that. Way worse. They did it out of ignorance. Our drug companies do it for money. Only for money. And they know exactly what they are doing. Their employess may not know. Your personal doctor probably doesn't know. But the people running the drug companies do know, and they don't give a damn.

You want to get sick? Take drugs. Legal drugs. Take lots of them. Take a legal drug for every little symptom you've got. Drink "diet" drinks. Eat "non-fat" processed snacks. Use artificial sweeteners. Take laxatives. Get your flu shots. Take antacids. Use anti-perspirants. Spray chemical stuff up your nose to prevent it from running when you have a cold. Take anti-depressants. Accept the notion that your own body is incapable of fighting "germs" and needs artificial chemical help at all times. Accept the notion that you are not responsible for your health, the drugstore is! I guarantee you will get sick all right, and you'll keep getting sicker too. That will be great for the people who are selling you the drugs, and that is all they care about.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:01 AM

TIA--Barrett isn't reputable--he's a foaming at the mouth anti-alternative medicine spin-doctor--his "quackwatch" is only concerned with discrediting that, and never, ever, explores issues like widely known fact that Flu Vaccine is Rarely Effective

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Your link isn't working, M. Ted. I might mention that I never get flu shots, nor does anyone in my family.

We don't seem to get the flu either.

Odd, isn't it? ;-)

I might also mention that my mother's health was extremely good until the late 70's, when she got a number of innoculations for a trip to Pakistan. These were supposedly to protect her from all those nasty germs over there. She immediately got very sick from the innoculations (!), and her health remained unstable for about the next 20 years as a direct result of the innoculations, not as a result of any germs in Pakistan!

Odd, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

Try this--    http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/FluVaccineisRarelyEffective.html

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:56 PM

I live in the Seattle, Washington (USA) area. About a dozen years ago, several of us founded a business networking group. We had ten years of weekly meetings. It was an amazing learning time for all of us. During that period, we had about 400 different businesses come and go. Some applied for membership and were not accepted. Most were accepted and had varying degrees of success, depending on many factors.

Early on, we were approached by the Nikon company, based in Japan. Their products all involved magnetic therapy: pillows, shoe inserts, bracelets, sitting mats, etc. At that time, I was in charge of checking the references of new businesses that applied to join our group.

After a background check, we denied them membership, because of the marketing practises of the company. They threatned to sue us and I'm still laughing at them.

The most benificial use of magnents, excepting compasses, is in the dairy industry ... where they force cows to swallow magents to catch the occasional pieces of barbed wire they ingest.

... wanna' buy a bridge ... what color? CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Amos, that's the point - the human body has amazing powers of self-recovery. That's why the placebo effect is so remarkable, and why there's a need to correct for it in the first place. And again, that's why M Ted's doctor was so right - if it works for you then keep doing it.

Sadly it wouldn't make money for the drugs companies if we found out how it worked, so there isn't the research into it that there really should be. There certainly is research going on, though.

LH, the doctor in your example only *claims* to cure AIDS. Anyone found the actual stats from his hospital?

As far as alternative treatments go, the key thing is finding which ones work and which don't, and for which diseases/symptoms they do/don't work. Acupuncture is a good recent example - it's fairly widely used now (at least in the UK), even though it's not understood yet. And we *still* don't know how aspirin works. But it hasn't stopped studies to find what they do/don't work for. No doctor will ever be thrown out by their professional association for using evidence-based medicine.

The problem is practitioners who *don't* use evidence-based medicine. (Homeopathy is the prime example here, since the overwhelming concensus of studies is that it has no effect beyond placebo.) If you prescribe a treatment that hasn't been shown to work, then you *should* be drummed out of your profession! Unless of course you've made it completely clear that you're doing research, and the patients are 100% in agreement with you using them as guinea pigs for this research - and even then you'll have ethical problems if the results of the treatment failing are near-certainty of death (cancer or AIDS, for instance).

As for "nobody got sick because they *lacked* drugs", that's pure bullshit. There's a reason everyone had huge families before modern medicine - having a family of 10 was the only way you could guarantee 2 of them surviving. Antibiotics and vaccines are the clearest possible counter-argument to your claim. Go talk to an African about river sickness, malaria, diptheria or TB, and see how well they're doing without them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM

"And we *still* don't know how aspirin works. "

      How aspirin works
      New understanding of old remedy may spell relief for regular users

      Although aspirin was introduced as a pain reliever nearly 100 years ago, how it actually works has remained a mystery until now.

      University researchers, led by Michael Garavito, Associate Professor in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, have discovered the precise chemical mechanism of how aspirin stops pain and inflammation. The team's finding, reported in the journal Nature/Structural Biology, means that millions of arthritis sufferers and others who regularly take aspirin to reduce pain and inflammation may be able to look forward to improved drugs with fewer side effects.

      Aspirin and other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), such as ibuprofen and indomethacin, work by inhibiting an enzyme that produces prostaglandins -- hormone-like messenger molecules that trigger processes in the body, including inflammation. The Chicago researchers have shown that aspirin splits into two parts and affixes one part to the enzyme, permanently altering its chemical structure and blocking the reaction that produces prostaglandins. Aspirin is the only NSAID known to work in this manner.

      The new finding follows a report last year by the same researchers in which they determined the molecular structure of the enzyme, prostaglandin H2 synthase, or PGHS. Using X-rays to probe the positions of atoms in tiny crystals of the enzyme, they showed that PGHS has a tunnel running into the middle of it. The raw material must pass through this tunnel to reach the core of the enzyme, where it will be converted into prostaglandin.

      The team reports that aspirin permanently attaches a portion of itself inside the tunnel, where it acts as a gate, blocking prostaglandin's precursor from reaching the "active site" of the enzyme. The researchers further showed that this gate can be in two positions, either fully or partially closed, and that the position of the gate may differ between two forms of the enzyme found in the body. Finding such differences between the two forms is the key to developing improved NSAIDs.

      Four years ago, several groups found that the body has two types of prostaglandin H2 synthase: an ever-ready PGHS-1, present in nearly all cells for basic housekeeping duties, and PGHS-2, made only as needed and just by those cells involved in inflammations and immune responses. Unfortunately for pain sufferers -- and especially for rheumatoid arthritis patients, who must take huge doses daily -- none of the current crop of 16 NSAIDs discriminates between the two enzyme forms. Before it can trickle into the bloodstream and alleviate inflammation by reining in PGHS-2, the drug passes through the stomach, where it knocks out PGHS-1, causing excess acid secretion and stomach upset or ulcers.

      "Just four years ago the consensus in the pharmaceutical community was you couldn't build a better aspirin," Garavito said. "But understanding the differences between the two forms of PGHS may allow us to do exactly that. We know that PGHS-2 is only partly blocked by aspirin, while PGHS-1 is completely knocked out. This paper shows why this might be so. The bottom line is that although the two forms of the enzyme seem very similar, their active sites are subtly different, and this could be a basis for rational drug design."

      Garavito and researchers Patrick Loll, Research Associate in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, and Daniel Picot (now at the Institut de Biologie Physico-Chimique in Paris) grew crystals of PGHS-1 using a technique that took them six years to develop. They diffused into the growing crystals an analog of aspirin that contains a bromine atom to aid in the X-ray crystallography.

      PGHS-1 is tightly bound to an intracellular membrane. Such proteins are notoriously difficult to study because the detergents needed to separate the protein from the greasy membrane make crystallization difficult. The researchers use PGHS-1 isolated from sheep seminal vesicles. By slowly changing the composition of the solution and the surrounding vapor over a period of weeks, the researchers were able to grow brown, rod-shaped crystals almost one-sixteenth of an inch long for study.

      Drug developers are most interested in targeting PGHS-2, and Garavito's laboratory is trying to grow crystals of that form of the enzyme large enough to X-ray. But aspirin's beneficial effects in preventing vascular disease and heart attacks are thought to be a PGHS-1 phenomenon, and improved anti-platelet drugs may derive directly from the current study, which was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/950817/aspirin.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:14 PM

Of course Barrett is interested in "discrediting". Science is all about "discrediting". If you make a claim, it has to stand up to all attempts to "discredit" it. Ideas that can be discredited fall away (e.g. leeching perhaps?), while those that can withstand testing live on (until they might later be discredited that is - because everything is always open to testing or it ain't science). It may seem mean-spirited, or exclusive, or elitist, or whatever - but it is the way science works. And science does work, or we would not be here having this discussion (in particular in this fashion!).

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:51 PM

Interesting drift.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM

I stand corrected, Bobad - thanks for the info.

I realise I missed something. If a placebo works for you, then fine - you're free to try it. But a doctor can't give you a list of placebo treatments (or suspected-placebo treatments) and say "try any of these, they might work for you", because his job is to present you with treatments that *have* been proven to work, and to know which ones those are. Lest anyone forgets, "poison, cut and burn" is the reason most people survive cancer these days, when within most of our lifetimes it was a near-certain death sentence.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:00 PM

Best look into why so many are suffering premature obesity and getting cancer, heart disease, and diabetes in the first place, and do something about that instead. But that could cause about 60,000 major food and drug industries to go bust if anything serious was done about it, couldn't it?

Hmmmmm...

Well, not to worry, most people are way too lazy and distracted to alter their accustomed modern consumer lifestyle anyway, so we'll just count on that, and keep right on with the emergency brigade (poison, cut, and burn) and rush in to the rescue AFTER they get sick and start dying. And we'll all be rich!

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk. The only real scientists among doctors today are the ones willing to risk all to test new therapies instead of parroting whatever line they were taught 25 years back, or whatever line of bull big pharma is selling. And when you're seriously ill, you need a scientist, not a parrot.

I do know of one MD who is doing experimental work with whole-body magnetics on a few serious medical problems, and they have had encouraging results. They do not know how it works, but the theory is that the forces, (if used on a large scale so that only one polarity is passing across the body in one area), seem to disrupt dysfunctional cells by realigning the tiny metal ions contained within the cells, and that with some conditions that disruption is very helpful.   It's a bit like electro-shock in theory. Shouldn't necessarily work, but is very helpful to some people.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM

The "real scientists" are the ones who are willing to honestly test the claims of others, and to accept the results of others' honest tests. Period. Doesn't matter whether they come from the "conventional" or "alternative" world. It is the test, not the claim, nor the jargon that makes it science.

I'll even go this far - the distinction between conventional medicine and alternative medicine is phoney and misleading. There should be only one category - Medicine. If it works, it's not "alternative", it's medicine. If it has not been tested (double blind please), or has failed all tests so far (N.B. the important "so far"), it's not medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

Yes, it appears that a single polarity magnetic field (north in the northern hemisphere) has some kind of beneficial effect on the body. This may be simply because it does the same thing the planet's magnetic field does in normally attuning the body, but it strenthens the local effect.

The vital thing about any form of treatment is:

1. does it work?

2. does it produce any harmful side effects?

Antibiotics definitely work for certain things. They also produce a great many harmful side effects, since they kill off friendly micro-organisms that are required for a well functioning digestive tract. This encourages the development of Candida and a host of unpleasant symptoms and illnesses. You can take more drugs to cover up the symptoms, and get sicker, or you can eliminate the antibiotics, clear out the Candida, and re-introduce the friendly micro-organisms back into the digestive tract. To do so is far more time consuming and complicated than popping some painkillers and anti-depressants.

People want a quick fix. The drug companies promise them one. They fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

I do know of one MD who is doing experimental work with whole-body magnetics on a few serious medical problems, and they have had encouraging results. They do not know how it works, but the theory is that the forces, (if used on a large scale so that only one polarity is passing across the body in one area), seem to disrupt dysfunctional cells by realigning the tiny metal ions contained within the cells, and that with some conditions that disruption is very helpful.   It's a bit like electro-shock in theory. Shouldn't necessarily work, but is very helpful to some people.

Wow. That's even better than the pseudo-science-babble I contributed.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:35 PM

It's just dreadful not knowing how or why something works, isn't it? ;-) Well, just deny it out of hand then, and you'll feel much better about the whole thing.

Ever had acupuncture?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM

I've had acupuncture, if you're asking me.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:39 PM

Excellent. I'm glad to hear that. Did you find it useful in any way?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM

Hmm. Well, I've had it used as an aneasthetic, and it seemed to work rather well, but the demonstration I was really impressed by was seeing it used on an ex-girlfriend to help cure various serious food allergies she had. It definitely worked for that, and nothing else had worked prior to using acupuncture. That convinced me it was real.

There are plenty of Chinese texts that explain how it works, but only those who already believe in it can be bothered to read them, I've noticed.

Regarding the magnetic bracelets....my mother decided to try one as of yesterday. She has been using it for about the past 24 hours to treat a sore and weak wrist and right hand that had been bothering her for months. Result: within about 2 hours of her putting on the bracelet much of the soreness was relieved, and she is now able to make a proper fist with that hand, closing the fingers properly...for the first time in several months.

Hell of a good placebo, isn't it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:59 PM

And because you type it here, we should believe it why?

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence...

Find me reputable science that discusses the benefits of these magnetic scams, and I'll happily examine it...

I'm not gonna hold my breath

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

The world is littered in anecdotal reports of cures.

I've read translations of Chinese texts on acupuncture. I read them when I knew nothing about the procedure. They seemed to me to be reiterations of ancient lore based on poor understanding of how the human body actually functions. I will concede that there are those who insist it works.

I find the deliberate false use of the term placebo unfair at the least. A placebo is not a cure, it is simply something given a patient to humour them. Sometimes -- not often at all -- just sometimes, temporary relief of symptoms occurs.

My sincere best wishes to your mum.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:11 PM

"I will concede that there are those who insist it works."

Some people think the world is hollow, too....

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM

A historical perspective of the popular use of electric and magnetic therapy.

Basford JR.

Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Mayo Clinic and Foundation, Rochester, MN 55902, USA.

OBJECTIVES: To review the history of the therapeutic use of static electric and magnetic fields and to understand its implications for current popular and medical acceptance of these and other alternative and complementary therapies. DATA SOURCES: Comprehensive MEDLINE (1960-2000) and CINAHL (1982-2000) computer literature searches by using key words such as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetic, therapy, medicine, EMF, history of medicine, and fields. Additional references were obtained from the bibliographies of the selected articles. In addition, discussions were held with curators of medical history museums and supplemental searches were made of Internet sources through various search engines. STUDY SELECTION: Primary references were used whenever possible. In a few instances, secondary references, particularly those requiring translations of early texts, were used. DATA SYNTHESIS: The use of electric and magnetic forces to treat disease has intrigued the general public and the scientific community since at least the time of the ancient Greeks. The popularity of these therapies has waxed and waned over the millennia, but at all times the popular imagination, often spurred by dynamic and colorful practitioners of pseudoscience, has been more excited than the medical or political establishment. In fact, a pattern seems to reappear. In each era, unsophisticated public acceptance is met first with medical disdain, then with investigation, and, finally, with a failure to find objective evidence of efficacy. This pattern continues today with the public acceptance of magnetic therapy (and alternative and complementary medicine in general) far outstripping acceptance by the medical community. CONCLUSION: The therapeutic implications of applying electrical and magnetic fields to heal disease have continually captured the popular imagination. Approaches thousands of years apart can be remarkably similar, but, in each era, proof has been lacking and the prevailing medical establishment has remained unconvinced. Interest persists today. Although these agents may have a future role in the healing of human disease, their history and a minimal scientific rationale makes it unlikely that the dichotomy between the hopes of the public and the medical skepticism will disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:22 PM

And how do you know the World isn't hollow, Clinton? ;-)

I mean, hell, I don't tend to think it's hollow either, but what do I base that on? Just the general stuff I've heard most of my life, nothing else whatsoever. Neither you nor I actually has a clue whether or not the World is hollow, but we assume it isn't because that's what our culture has told us since we were kids. We've been given a general impression about something that no one can actually show us directly.

We assume a very great deal of what we think we know. I would guess, about 75% of it, in fact. Maybe more. The only stuff we KNOW is stuff we have seen with our own eyes and touched with our own hands and proven beyond any shadow of a doubt by direct experience.

In my mother's case, she now knows that the bracelet is helping her...but not why. That's good enough for her. I do not expect it to convince anyone else. Only our own personal experience will ever convince you, me, or anyone else of anything at the deepest level of their belief and knowledge of life.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:25 PM

Barrett uses abusive language that is not a part of scientific or medical discussions--he uses the word "quack" a lot, for instance--This word is not used in the scientific review of anything that I am familiar with--he uses the word "fake" a lot, as well--moreover, he uses these words exclusively in connection with alternative therapies, such as Chiropracty, Homeopathy, Accupuncture, Osteopathy, and the like.

Notwithstanding the comments of some here, there is a substantial body of medical evidence that these approaches to treatment have merit. There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that, for a variety of conditions, these treatments have higher positive outcomes, lower treatment costs, and fewer adverse results than conventional treatments. For that reason, conventional medical institutions are integrating these approaches into their programs--Barrett's response to this is that they are naive.

Barrett's approach is review by epithet--he doesn't talk like a doctor or a scientist, he talks like an exorcist--to him, alternative therapies are not legitimate medical therapies, they are manifestations of evil, and he rejects anything that establishes their legitimacy, no matter how well founded, and accepts anything negative, no matter how dubious--

The truest proof of his motives is the proof of omission--he says nothing whatsoever about conventional medical practices--


An example:

The fourth most common type of cancer is pancreatic cancer. The most common surgical procedure used for it is called "Whipple's Operation". The mortality rate for this surgery, in the high volume medical centers, such as Johns Hopkins, that specialize in it, is about 5%--however, the same procedure, in the average, low volume, local hospital, the mortality rate is 20% or higher.
(one in five, the odds at Russian Roulette being one in six)

Does Barrett call the practitioners in these hospitals quacks? Fakes? Murders?--No, he doesn't. He doesn't say a word. Because it isn't important to him.

There certainly are people who pose as "alternative therapy" healers who are not qualified in any way to administer medical care--but the same in mainstream, conventional, medicine. It is a mistake to judge either type of treatment by the incompetent, unqualified, or simply opportunistic, who pose as healers.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM

Barrett, I suspect, is a well-paid agent of the pharmaceutical/medical industry and his only real mission is to destroy any possible competition that would threaten their monopoly on health care. He is one of many such agents. They hide behind the mask of medical conventionality like a political fanatic hides behind the flag of his country.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:38 PM

Excellent examples of the ad hominem fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:42 PM

I'm making an assumption... ;-) I don't know Barrett personally, so my assumption is based on a general impression, just like Clinton's assumptions about most forms of alternative therapy.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

The fact is, most people just line up instinctively on one side or the other when it comes to this sort of thing. Their opinions are formed in the twitch of a bent knee. Some people instinctively oppose almost anything that is not officially sanctioned by the most authoritative structures at the top of their society. In other words, they favour the conventional approach. (they trust 'daddy')

Other people do the exact opposite. (they don't trust 'daddy')

And that is what drives the endless debates here. Not facts, not evidence, not much real experience, just basic differences in individual human psychology...the lover of conventionality versus the rebel against conventionality.

You can see the same folks lining up predictably on the 2 sides of centreline just like in a hockey game...the moment any discusssion is launched.

The same goes for most political debates.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

Fair enough. But stand back and think; are the promoters of 'alternative therapies' altruists? No likely, is it? And at least the conventional therapies are required to prove what they claim, efficacy aside. There is no such requirement for the other stuff. Ripe for exploitation I'd say.

I'm all for promoting anything that leads to a healthier lifestyle, (bring on tax exemption for gym membership!) but I'm really fearful that scarce health care resources will be squandered on rewarding practitioners of unproven therapies when they should be directed at the poor and the sick.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 06:41 PM

I wouldn't mind, if it were not for the main establishment making so many unwarranted attacks on alternative therapies...and not to protect the public (in my opinion), but to guard its own financial turf.

Regarding altruism, alternative therapists run the gamut on that. Some are altruistic, some are not. Some are just in it for the money, others are genuinely in it to help people. Some are well-informed, others are cranks. You have to judge each case on its own merits, I guess, and go by word of mouth of the part of people you know as to whether a therapy worked for them. That's a good start, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM

I think most sceptics would more readily accept the claims made by 'alternative' therapies if they were subjected to the scrutiny of the commonly accepted evaluation methodology of the double blind study. Do those of you who readily accept anecdotal evidence ever question why they are not ?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM

First question of course, is, what do you mean by "alternative therapies"? In fact, all the currently accepted therapies were, at the time they were developed and introduced, alternative therapies. In fact,many of the therapies that we regard as miraculous and lifesaving, were met with skepticism of such degree that the developers had difficulty finding a forum to present their evidence--

bobad, you would be horrified to know that a significant percentage of the commonly used medical procedures have not been subjected to double blind studies--or to any efficacy evaluations at all.
The doctor who made the "if it works, do it" comment I related above,also said that, in his field, which is one of the largest medical specialties, only about 1/3 of the procedures had been scientifically verified.

Here the answer to your question, bobab not from me but in an abstract from October 2002, Vol 92, No. 10 American Journal of Public Health : Diversity, the Individual, and Proof of Efficacy: Complementary and Alternative Medicine in Medical Education byConstance M. Park, MD, PhD.


Patients will always have access to a variety of possibly effective, but unproved, therapies directed at maintaining health or treating illness. And there will always be complex, potentially therapeutic regimens that cannot be adequately tested for financial, ethical, or methodological reasons. Furthermore, even after adequate study of a given regimen, there will always be the fundamental uncertainty of medical practice: the fact that epidemiological research produces probabilistic results that cannot predict with certainty the best treatment for the single unique patient before us.

The exploration of complementary and alternative medicine topics in the medical school curriculum helps to elucidate the complex and uncertain nature of medical practice, sharpens skills for clinical decisionmaking, increases cultural sensitivity, and provides ideas for future research.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:28 PM

I don't think I've ever been conscious of whether any medical procedure I considered trying (conventional OR alternative) had been subjected to double-blind studies or not, bobad. ;-) I guess that's just not the first question or even the tenth question that pops into my mind when considering such things....

What I usually do if I'm interested in a medical procedure (conventional OR alternative) is, I read up on it from various sources, compare and evaluate what they say about it, and I talk to people I know personally who might know about it or be familiar with it. Then I search my own reasoning powers and my own gut feeling as to what to do next. This usually seems to work well. I trust my own judgement, and I am naturally cautious by nature. That nature certainly served me well in my youth, since I did not have one bad drug experience during my entire youth or since, did not get addicted to anything, had no alcohol problems and did not smoke...all on the basis of my own good judgement.

If I was smart enough to avoid those common pitfalls that the vast majority of people my age fell into without hesitation in the 60's and 70's, I figure I'm smart enough to avoid harmful or useless therapeutic methods as well.

In other words, I trust my OWN opinion, and the opinions of people I personally know and respect, not the opinion of some official special interest group with an axe to grind...whether it be the FDA or the AMA or the National Association of Psychic Healers or whoever the hell it is.

I don't let them decide for me. I decide.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bob Hope
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:52 AM

woooooooooooo!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Jack O
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:53 AM

I'll leave it to your own devices

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Jimminy
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:55 AM

What in tarnation

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,When will they ever lean
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:56 AM

...to the regiment...!

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 07:43 AM

Why Double-Blind Studies?

Although most people have heard of double-blind studies, few recognize their true significance. It's not that double-blind studies are hard to understand; rather, that their consequences are difficult to accept. Why? Because double-blind studies tell us that we can't trust our direct personal experience. This isn't easy to swallow, but it's nonetheless true.

The insights provided by double-blind studies have been particularly disturbing for alternative medicine. Most alternative medicine methods are grounded in tradition, common sense, anecdote, and testimonial. On the surface, these seem like perfectly good sources of information. However, double-blind studies have shown us otherwise. We now know that a host of "confounding factors" can easily create a kind of optical illusion, causing the appearance of efficacy where none in fact exists. The double-blind study is thus much more than a requirement for absolute proof of efficacy (as is commonly supposed) - it is a necessity for knowing almost anything about whether a treatment really works.

http://www.mendosa.com/bratman.htm

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 11:26 AM

I find the deliberate false use of the term placebo unfair at the least. A placebo is not a cure, it is simply something given a patient to humour them. Sometimes -- not often at all -- just sometimes, temporary relief of symptoms occurs.

BPL, that's not the case. The unscrupulous *may* prescribe pills containing no active ingredients to humour their "patients" - homeopathy for one - but the placebo effect is well-known, well-documented and something that anyone interested in things medical needs to know about.

The effect isn't just temporary, and it isn't "just sometimes". There's plenty of evidence for people getting real benefits from placebos, right up to an outright cure. This clearly works best on things that the brain has direct control over - placebos for pain medication are a classic - but it's present in many other places too.

Want to hear something really wild? There's placebo effect in surgery too! They got some volunteers who needed a knee op doing - half of them got the real op; half of them were just opened up and stitched back together. Now the odd bit is that a significant number of the ones who *didn't* get the real op got all the benefits of it. I first heard about this through NewScientist, but this link has details.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:49 PM

That's fascinating stuff, Grab, and it suggests one thing very strongly to me....and that one thing could turn our entire materialistically-minded civilization on its head, if taken seriously and acted upon. Namely...

the most crucial factor in both illness and healing may be consciousness, not outer physical factors. Consciousness and belief may in fact be the most powerful healing forces there are, and the tragedy of modern man may be that he already HAS the conscious ability to heal himself by his own belief and control over his own body, but he has unwittingly surrendered that ability by NOT believing he can heal himself or control his own body to heal itself!

Given that situation, a sceptic is his own worst enemy, because he has already decided that he is powerless without artificial outer assistance.

This is the central matter to Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, as regards healing, that people are healed BY their own belief...that they have the power if only they believe.

I say that not as a Christian, trying to convert you...I'm not technically a Christian or any other religion....I say it because I find it fascinating that the experiments you describe in your post (where people were healed by believing that a placebo was the real thing) indicate only one thing: that what Jesus said was correct. Their belief was what healed them.

In other words, their body-mind already HAD the innate ability to heal the problem, but their mind had to give conscious assent to a supposed outer mechanism...their mind had to have confidence in that mechanism...before their body-mind would put itself effectively in gear and DO the healing!

That's revolutionary. That could change everything. As long as people believe themselves to be helpless, they will be. As such, they'll be at the mercy of some outside agent to "heal" them...if they can find one they have any confidence in. It's a shame, really, because they could do it themselves if they only believed they could.

And that's why Jesus said basically this: "Ye are gods and sons of the most high. All the things I have done, you can do these and greater." (!) That is not the line taken by most of his supposed followers, who would rather turn him into an exclusive idol and worship it...than unlock the incredible power that lies sleeping within themselves and BE like him.

I believe that consciousness is the most crucial factor in good health and in healing. Ironically enough, though, I'm not all that good at managing consciousness myself. I know a fair number of people who are definitely better at it than I am. I've noticed that the people who are best at managing their consciousness are the ones who are most effective in life, most energetic, and least often struck down by illness. That figures. They are strenthened from within by their state of mind.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:06 PM

With due respect, Grab and bobad, what you say about Homeopathy is not true--homeopathic remedies fare quite well in double-bind and other scientific studies--the mechanisms may not be clear, but the results are--here is an example--the occasional grammatical oddness are because the site is in German--http://www.mtec-ag.de/1_3_1_3.asp?lang=eng



The proof of effectivity by Leipzig University

Professor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that homeopathy does not work and at the most can be explained by the so-called placebo effect. It was whilst looking for a test arrangement which totally excluded any placebo effect that she came up with the following idea: she placed a rat intestines in a nutrient solution and fixed it using organic threads to a sensor in order to measure the reduction of the intestines through contraction. She then added a stimulant to the nutrient solution, which caused a strong contraction of the rat intestines.

Professor Karen Nieber, as a pharmacologist, expected that the treatment with a homeopathic agent with a potenz above C12 would have no effect against the enterospasms, since there are no more active agents present above this potenz. In order to make the degree of dilution apprehensible: a C14 is like a single drop in all the worlds' oceans together!

In Leipzig they then added Belladonna D90 to the nutrient solution with the rat intestines cramped through the stimulant they had added and lo and behold, the enterospasms ceased immediately, the measuring device registered the relaxation of the intestines.

What Hahnemann declared two hundred years ago in order to defend his homeopathy may also apply to the Leipzig study:

"I don't demand any belief in it, nor require that someone understands it. Even I don't understand it; but enough, the facts are so and not otherwise. Only the experience says it, which I believe more than my own comprehension."

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:27 PM

With due respect to your belief in faith healing LH, I believe you misinterpreted the conclusions of the arthroscopy study. The authors of said study concluded that the results of the procedures for the specific condition studied were no better than placebo, to quote "Conclusions: In this controlled trial involving patients with osteoarthritis of the knee, the outcomes after arthroscopic lavage or arthroscopic debridement were no better than those after a placebo procedure." This conclusion is at considerable variance with that of saying that the placebo group were cured.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/347/2/81

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM

M.Ted

I don't recall making any specific comments about homeopathy but in regards to so-called alternative therapies I do not categorically refute any of them, I would just like to see the claims made by their proponents backed up by solid research.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,GREG_TRUE
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM

Pardon me if I digress... Spaw has again proved to me that laughter is good medicine. I've been moody due to the season ya know. And now, at least for a while I'm feelin alright about life because I read a Spaw Story.
However, I want to testify to the power of the electric blanket and heating pad. Okay, we all know that heat is therapeutic. But I got to believe, in my case, that my electric blanket, which I only used while sleeping this winter, might be what has given a measure of relief to my aches all day long.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:56 PM

Laughter is definitely a powerful healer. So is smiling a lot, they tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:10 PM

You never were specific about what you considered to be "alternative" medicine.

You went on at length about double-blind studies. As is pointed out in the abstract I posted above, they aren't the be-all and end-all when it comes to treating an individual patient. They are the basis for a statistical assessment of certain types of medical treatment, mostly pharmaceauticals--many accepted medical procedures have not been subjected to double-blind studies, and, for a variety of reasons(also in the abstract above) many cannot be--